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View Full Version : Changes will be made - per KW as reported on Score


bryPt
06-24-2007, 11:59 AM
Hit and run this morning. KW talked with reporters. He said he is sick and tired of watching this and CHANGES WILL BE MADE. Trades, call ups, etc...

Thank you Mark for an incredible career with the White Sox.

It's Time
06-24-2007, 12:10 PM
As I said yesterday, if the Cubs sweep today, it actually could be a blessing. If JR and KW witness an ass kicking at the hands of their north side rivals, that might be the straw that breaks the camels back as far as not waiting to blow this up.

A win today by the Sox does nothing but delay the inevitable. No need to delay anything at this point.

sox1970
06-24-2007, 12:12 PM
As I said yesterday, if the Cubs sweep today, it actually could be a blessing. If JR and KW witness an ass kicking at the hands of their north side rivals, that might be the straw that breaks the camels back as far as not waiting to blow this up.

A win today by the Sox does nothing but delay the inevitable. No need to delay anything at this point.

I really don't think how they do against the Cubs means anything. It's been a month of bad play. Whether it's the Cubs or any other team that sweeps them, it's just more of the same. Time to turn over the roster and get some younger, talented players.

It's Time
06-24-2007, 12:15 PM
I really don't think how they do against the Cubs means anything. It's been a month of bad play. Whether it's the Cubs or any other team that sweeps them, it's just more of the same. Time to turn over the roster and get some younger, talented players.

I tend to disagree here. The only reason I say that is because KW has said numerous times that he understands the pulse and frustration of the fan base. That means he knows if the Cubs sweep the Sox at the cell, it's the ultimate slap in the face to the fans.

He will never hear the end of it. His email inbox will be a very unpleasant place.:(:

downstairs
06-24-2007, 12:20 PM
I really don't think how they do against the Cubs means anything. It's been 10 months of bad play. Whether it's the Cubs or any other team that sweeps them, it's just more of the same. Time to turn over the roster and get some younger, talented players.

Fixed it for ya.

:cool:

bryPt
06-24-2007, 12:23 PM
If KW knows the pulse of the fans, HE WOULD SIGN MARK.

sox1970
06-24-2007, 12:28 PM
Fixed it for ya.

:cool:

Maybe I should have said, a month of "atrociously sickening" baseball.

Brian26
06-24-2007, 01:11 PM
Hit and run this morning. KW talked with reporters. He said he is sick and tired of watching this and CHANGES WILL BE MADE. Trades, call ups, etc...

Thank you Mark for an incredible career with the White Sox.

This doesn't solve the problem. The situational hitting has been non-existent, the defense is terrible, and the bullpen is a pathetic joke...so the only solution is to trade your best starting pitcher, who happens to be the heart and soul of the team and has been one of the only guys this season who's done his job, which is going to further alienate the fanbase.

russ99
06-24-2007, 01:13 PM
It's about time... what took him so long?

We've all had to watch a month of terrible baseball in order to wake KW out of his nap of inactivity.

kidmccarthy
06-24-2007, 01:22 PM
I have come to accept this. This has been the best three year span of baseball since my blood became black when I was 5 years old. I congradulate this organization for making 05 happen (The greatest sports year of my life), the aggressive moves for 06 (and the drama that followed) and the great hope of 07 (We see how this has played out). A rebuild is fine, lets just be wise in who we get back, and hope two to three years is all that it will take. Anything has to be better than what we have now though. I think this year has been rough, but imagine next year if we do nothing. I love this team, and I love the fans passion, but things are ready for a change.

russ99
06-24-2007, 01:49 PM
I have come to accept this. This has been the best three year span of baseball since my blood became black when I was 5 years old. I congradulate this organization for making 05 happen (The greatest sports year of my life), the aggressive moves for 06 (and the drama that followed) and the great hope of 07 (We see how this has played out). A rebuild is fine, lets just be wise in who we get back, and hope two to three years is all that it will take. Anything has to be better than what we have now though. I think this year has been rough, but imagine next year if we do nothing. I love this team, and I love the fans passion, but things are ready for a change.

I'd seriously doubt this is going to be a 3 year "valley of darkness" rebuild. If you look at all the teams who reloaded in the last 10-15 years, they all have what the Sox have, a lot of young quality starting pitching.

The Sox do need to get a lot younger as far as position players, and I hope Kenny gets some good young players to take over a couple outfield spots, along with 2B and SS.

I'd expect at least 2 of Konerko, Thome & A.J. back next year as a decent power-hitting core, but all bets are off for the rest of the hitters.

I also agree with some of the other posters, Brian Sweeney needs to come up and play every day. Terrero, Gonzalez and Mackowiak aren't the future of this team.

WhiteSox5187
06-24-2007, 01:51 PM
If KW knows the pulse of the fans, HE WOULD SIGN MARK.
But Kenny is so much smarter than us...he knows what he's doing, we're only mere peons. Buerhle is so obviously overrated anyways.

russ99
06-24-2007, 01:57 PM
But Kenny is so much smarter than us...he knows what he's doing, we're only mere peons. Buerhle is so obviously overrated anyways.

I truly believe that if it was up to Kenny, Buehrle would already have been signed. It seems Mark also would like to stay if he were given a market-vaule deal.

It's so obvious that the Chairman's behind the lowball offers Mark has gotten from the Sox so far.

WhiteSox5187
06-24-2007, 02:01 PM
I truly believe that if it was up to Kenny, Buehrle would already have been signed.

It's so obvious that the Chairman's behind the lowball offers Mark has gotten from the Sox so far.
I respectfully disagree. I think Kenny wants to show everyone how smart he is and wants to essentially rebuild the organization and JR is just putting his blind faith into Kenny. I think that letting Buerhle go will haunt this organization for years to come and Kenny will go down in history much like Jerry Krause, a guy who got us a ring but wanted to prove he was smarter than everyone else and wound up destroying the organization.

bryPt
06-24-2007, 02:03 PM
I will miss Mark more than any other Sox player to ever retire, get traded or whatever. I have come to realize that he is by far my most favorite Sox player of all time. (Sorry Carlton Fisk)

:(:

voodoochile
06-24-2007, 02:07 PM
I respectfully disagree. I think Kenny wants to show everyone how smart he is and wants to essentially rebuild the organization and JR is just putting his blind faith into Kenny. I think that letting Buerhle go will haunt this organization for years to come and Kenny will go down in history much like Jerry Krause, a guy who got us a ring but wanted to prove he was smarter than everyone else and wound up destroying the organization.

KW already built one championship team. I mean the only guys he inherited were Buehrle, Garland, Crede, Thomas, Rowand and Konerko. The rest he put together to win the championship in 2005. Crede, Garland and Rowand were still unknown commodities when KW took over too, so he really only had three established players.

Krause only had Jorden (yeah, that's a heck of an only) when he took over, so I don't think it's fair to say he had nothing to do with the Bulls championships either.

Whether recent moves have worked or future moves will work is a good topic for discussion, but both of those two GM's proved their worth in putting together championship teams.

Hendu
06-24-2007, 02:10 PM
I respectfully disagree. I think Kenny wants to show everyone how smart he is and wants to essentially rebuild the organization and JR is just putting his blind faith into Kenny. I think that letting Buerhle go will haunt this organization for years to come and Kenny will go down in history much like Jerry Krause, a guy who got us a ring but wanted to prove he was smarter than everyone else and wound up destroying the organization.

Or...Buehrle wants a Zito-type deal, and an organization that has this many holes and no young players ready to fill in, can't afford to spend a large percentage of the budget on one player who only pitches every 5th day. If the Sox were just one player or 2 away from greatness, I'd agree with you. But how does it make sense to spend that much on one player when we don't have a 2008 middle infield, outfield or bullpen?

TheOldRoman
06-24-2007, 02:15 PM
I truly believe that if it was up to Kenny, Buehrle would already have been signed. It seems Mark also would like to stay if he were given a market-vaule deal.

It's so obvious that the Chairman's behind the lowball offers Mark has gotten from the Sox so far.There have been no "lowball" offers to Mark. According to reports, the only sticking point has been the fifth year. They are on the same page in terms of money.

I respectfully disagree. I think Kenny wants to show everyone how smart he is and wants to essentially rebuild the organization and JR is just putting his blind faith into Kenny. I think that letting Buerhle go will haunt this organization for years to come and Kenny will go down in history much like Jerry Krause, a guy who got us a ring but wanted to prove he was smarter than everyone else and wound up destroying the organization.
Bull****. Krause was an ass, but he was not fully responsible for breaking up that team. Jackson and Jordan had as much to do with the breakup as Krause. Besides that, Krause dismantled a world champion. I don't know if you have seen this, but the Sox are currently the worst team in baseball. This would not qualify as a white flag or a firesale.

HotelWhiteSox
06-24-2007, 03:02 PM
I know trading Mark is the no brainer but I'll hate to see him go, for a whiteflag deal I'd rather send off Thome (not sure if anyone needs him) than Mark

Bulls_Fan
06-24-2007, 05:44 PM
I know trading Mark is the no brainer but I'll hate to see him go, for a whiteflag deal I'd rather send off Thome (not sure if anyone needs him) than Mark

I'm with you in trying to get rid of Thome.

Honestly, to me there is no one on this roster who is untouchable and a must keep.

PatK
06-24-2007, 06:23 PM
I respectfully disagree. I think Kenny wants to show everyone how smart he is and wants to essentially rebuild the organization and JR is just putting his blind faith into Kenny. I think that letting Buerhle go will haunt this organization for years to come and Kenny will go down in history much like Jerry Krause, a guy who got us a ring but wanted to prove he was smarter than everyone else and wound up destroying the organization.

I've got no problem with that, but if that's the case, I want to see a good effort at rebuilding instead of a half-assed effort.

IMO, the only way you are going to do that is some kind of fire sale for prospects.

And when I say prospects, I don't mean projects. Trading for projects is the reason our bullpen is in the shape it's in.

Keep a couple of core players, get rid of a lot of the bench and the guys you know are going to be gone.

When I look at the trades over the years that Kenny has made, how many of them were winners or steals? It seems like they've been break even at best.

Blind Lemon 5103
06-24-2007, 07:19 PM
I would like to see some exciting, young position players..and I keep hearing how good the Boston farm system is, so as much as I would like to see Buehrle stay, he must be dealt.

Outside of Buehrle and Jenks, who is going to want any of these guys?

cws05champ
06-24-2007, 07:28 PM
As for Buehrle's status, the talented left-handed hurler, according to Williams, is certainly one of the 10 players on the roster who already have been inquired after by other teams, although Williams didn't mention anyone by name.


This was from a story on whitesox.com today. So who are the 10 players do you think...obviously Buehrle, but who else? I think:
Thome, Konerko, Dye, Garland, Jenks, Erstad, MacDougal, Thorton, Mackowiack.

Vernam
06-24-2007, 07:53 PM
This was from a story on whitesox.com today. So who are the 10 players do you think...obviously Buehrle, but who else? I think:
Thome, Konerko, Dye, Garland, Jenks, Erstad, MacDougal, Thorton, Mackowiack.I'd throw Iguchi in there, too.

Vernam

Mr. White Sox
06-24-2007, 08:01 PM
This was from a story on whitesox.com today. So who are the 10 players do you think...obviously Buehrle, but who else? I think:
Thome, Konerko, Dye, Garland, Jenks, Erstad, MacDougal, Thorton, Mackowiack.

-Jenks is still cheap, and in this crappy bullpen he's the best they have. Stick with him despite the injury issues if you think you can contend next year or in 2009

-Mackowiak's value is at an all-time low. He'd net less than Gload got us (Sisco). Keep him for now, even though he kind of sucks

-Erstad gets you nothing.

-MacDougal also has little value currently, but if he puts together a solid month I could see him traded. Thornton included.

-Konerko has a market-level (or even less than market-level) deal; you hold on to him.

-Everyone else on that list? They gone.

CLR01
06-24-2007, 08:03 PM
I'd throw Iguchi in there, too.

Vernam

But he sucks, who'd want him?

Rockabilly
06-24-2007, 08:05 PM
what about AJ

Vernam
06-24-2007, 08:06 PM
But he sucks, who'd want him?Iguchi might be sought by a team that has a lefty-hitting 2B who can only hit lefties, so they could be platooned. :wink:

Vernam

balke
06-24-2007, 08:11 PM
Or...Buehrle wants a Zito-type deal, and an organization that has this many holes and no young players ready to fill in, can't afford to spend a large percentage of the budget on one player who only pitches every 5th day. If the Sox were just one player or 2 away from greatness, I'd agree with you. But how does it make sense to spend that much on one player when we don't have a 2008 middle infield, outfield or bullpen?

I doubt we're gonna fill these holes regardless. I have very little hope that what the Sox are getting in return for players this season will be any good.

Why is it Rowand and Willie are on different teams having career years? What is with this organization. Even if we have talent in the minors, they all look like they are going to fizzle wearing the White Sox logo on thier jerseys. Even Rauch turned major league when he left the Sox. At least Kip Wells is a loser.

getonbckthr
06-24-2007, 08:36 PM
I doubt we're gonna fill these holes regardless. I have very little hope that what the Sox are getting in return for players this season will be any good.

Why is it Rowand and Willie are on different teams having career years? What is with this organization. Even if we have talent in the minors, they all look like they are going to fizzle wearing the White Sox logo on thier jerseys. Even Rauch turned major league when he left the Sox. At least Kip Wells is a loser.
Better than getting nothing when they walk.

Noneck
06-24-2007, 08:54 PM
I am really getting tired of "Kenny's got to do something." "Let the fire sale begin" but we have to keep Burls. Can Williams turn water into wine? Well thats the only way anything can happen. He has 4 players that have decent trade value , Burls, Garland,Jenks and A.J and prospects are all you'll get for any of the four till after the season (And only draft choice for Burls). So, If you trade them all now and dump all the dead wood and big salaries (which will be difficult eg. Thome), you've got a Marlins type team (I hope that good). Free agency is another possibility but that is up to the chairman and next years analysis of upfront ticket sales. (And the Sox attendance will not be like the Bulls after their championship years). The future is gloomy and we be better be prepared for it.

getonbckthr
06-24-2007, 09:53 PM
You do not trade Jenks. He doesn't make alot of money and he is your best relief pitcher. On this team now that shouldn't be here in 08 are:
Burls, Contreras, Macdougal, Iguchi, Uribe, Cintron, Mackowiak, Podsednik, Erstad, DYe, and Andy Gonzalez. Assuming we get this Buckholz (sp) kid from Boston I would like a rotation of Garland-Javy-Danks-Gio-Buckholz. Lineup of:
1-Ichiro CF, 2-Luis Castillo 2B, 3- Thome DH, 4-Paulie 1B, 5-AJ C, 6-Crede-3B, 7-Fields LF, 8-Sweeney RF 9- Eckstein SS
That kind of reminds of a Minnesota Twins team except more expensive.

Noneck
06-24-2007, 10:01 PM
You do not trade Jenks. He doesn't make alot of money and he is your best relief pitcher. On this team now that shouldn't be here in 08 are:
Burls, Contreras, Macdougal, Iguchi, Uribe, Cintron, Mackowiak, Podsednik, Erstad, DYe, and Andy Gonzalez. Assuming we get this Buckholz (sp) kid from Boston I would like a rotation of Garland-Javy-Danks-Gio-Buckholz. Lineup of:
1-Ichiro CF, 2-Luis Castillo 2B, 3- Thome DH, 4-Paulie 1B, 5-AJ C, 6-Crede-3B, 7-Fields LF, 8-Sweeney RF 9- Eckstein SS
That kind of reminds of a Minnesota Twins team except more expensive.

Ok I'll bite. How do we get Ichiro , Luis Castillo and Eckstein ? And we pay Crede his option year because we know hes 100%?

Jjav829
06-24-2007, 10:02 PM
If KW knows the pulse of the fans, HE WOULD SIGN MARK.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he would have signed Maggs.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded Rowand.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he would have re-signed Frank.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded 3 HOF's in Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo and Mike Morse for Freddy Garcia.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded Carlos Lee.

You get my point. Kenny Williams' job isn't to worry about what the fans think. His job is to put together a team that can win championships now and/or in the future. If he feels that trading Mark Buehrle improves his chances of fielding that team, then that's what he should do, regardless of what the fans think.

getonbckthr
06-24-2007, 10:06 PM
Ok I'll bite. How do we get Ichiro , Luis Castillo and Eckstein ? And we pay Crede his option year because we know hes 100%?
Crede is arbitration eligible and it won't be alot because of this season. The other 3 are free agents. Castillo and Eckstein shouldn't cost much (3-5 million per?) as far as Ichiro I would rather give him the money than Burls.

Noneck
06-24-2007, 10:14 PM
Crede is arbitration eligible and it won't be alot because of this season. The other 3 are free agents. Castillo and Eckstein shouldn't cost much (3-5 million per?) as far as Ichiro I would rather give him the money than Burls.

So what you are saying is that our salaries will stay the same basically while revenue will take a big hit and the chairman will lessen his profit expectations? Or you think attendance will stay about the same because Sox fans are really sheep?

getonbckthr
06-24-2007, 10:24 PM
So what you are saying is that our salaries will stay the same basically while revenue will take a big hit and the chairman will lessen his profit expectations? Or you think attendance will stay about the same because Sox fans are really sheep?
I'm hoping the fans would see when Kenny makes signings in the offseason that he isn't packing it in but doing whats best for the franchise and its potential for success. I like to think our fans are somewhat intelligent and dont just focus on names they are familar with.

ZombieRob
06-24-2007, 10:27 PM
If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he would have signed Maggs.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded Rowand.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he would have re-signed Frank.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded 3 HOF's in Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo and Mike Morse for Freddy Garcia.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded Carlos Lee.

You get my point. Kenny Williams' job isn't to worry about what the fans think. His job is to put together a team that can win championships now and/or in the future. If he feels that trading Mark Buehrle improves his chances of fielding that team, then that's what he should do, regardless of what the fans think.
Kenny also needs to take responsibility for his own failure.1 playoff appearance in 7 years albeit a World Series that year is unacceptable.And in 2008,the rebuilding begins again.So yes he has made some excellent moves.But the question is where are the results?

SoxSpeed22
06-24-2007, 10:31 PM
So, how many other people want to see Masset in the rotation at some point this season? He obviously is not very useful in the bullpen and has shown potential. The only thing KW can do is just put up a bunch of flags and hope someone finds them one at a time.

ZombieRob
06-24-2007, 10:36 PM
We see alot of the same names floated out in trade rumors.But why don't we hear about Jose's name too much? Doesn't he have any value you left?

Noneck
06-24-2007, 10:39 PM
I'm hoping the fans would see when Kenny makes signings in the offseason that he isn't packing it in but doing whats best for the franchise and its potential for success. I like to think our fans are somewhat intelligent and dont just focus on names they are familar with.
If you are right it will be a 1st, but I can't see Sox fans buying advance tics for April, early may, sept or or buying season tics in upper heaven based on whats best for franchise. Hmmmm, Fields in left, Sweeney in right, Danks, Gio, and Buckholz being your 3,4,5. But if it happens Williams is the greatest Shepard of all time.

UserNameBlank
06-24-2007, 10:51 PM
Kenny also needs to take responsibility for his own failure.1 playoff appearance in 7 years albeit a World Series that year is unacceptable.And in 2008,the rebuilding begins again.So yes he has made some excellent moves.But the question is where are the results?
I'm wearing the results right now. 2005 World Champions!

Sure, we don't want to spend the next twenty years with nothing more to talk about than a World Series in '05, but a WS title is quite the accomplishment for a GM. He's earned the right IMO to rebuild this team. If the Sox are terrible in 2009 you can ask where are the results, but on paper he's put some pretty damn good teams on the field since 2003. The results haven't always been there, but he's showed that he'll do what it takes to win.

Also, he is taking responsibility. He's on the phone and trying to make this team worth watching for the next few years. I mean hell, what do you expect him to do? Get on television and say "I'm a dog**** general manager! Someone fire me because my All-Star middle of the order isn't doing a damn thing!"

kevin57
06-24-2007, 11:21 PM
If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he would have signed Maggs.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded Rowand.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he would have re-signed Frank.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded 3 HOF's in Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo and Mike Morse for Freddy Garcia.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded Carlos Lee.

I disagree. I think that many/most fans were glad to see Mags go, despite his current success. I think that many were sad to see Frank go, but thought it was a prudent decision. I didn't like to see Rowand go, but were you watching how this board reacted to the Rowand-Thome trade? Overwhelmingly positive.

ZombieRob
06-24-2007, 11:29 PM
I'm wearing the results right now. 2005 World Champions!

Sure, we don't want to spend the next twenty years with nothing more to talk about than a World Series in '05, but a WS title is quite the accomplishment for a GM. He's earned the right IMO to rebuild this team. If the Sox are terrible in 2009 you can ask where are the results, but on paper he's put some pretty damn good teams on the field since 2003. The results haven't always been there, but he's showed that he'll do what it takes to win.

Also, he is taking responsibility. He's on the phone and trying to make this team worth watching for the next few years. I mean hell, what do you expect him to do? Get on television and say "I'm a dog**** general manager! Someone fire me because my All-Star middle of the order isn't doing a damn thing!"
If he keeps on the pace hes going he wont have to go on t.v to have to say it.We'll already know it.Look i don't mind rebuilding as long as see 100% effort out there by players.And i dont think we have to tear this whole thing apart.Just ijnect the right amount of youth mixed with some veterans.

oeo
06-24-2007, 11:35 PM
Kenny also needs to take responsibility for his own failure.1 playoff appearance in 7 years albeit a World Series that year is unacceptable.And in 2008,the rebuilding begins again.So yes he has made some excellent moves.But the question is where are the results?

Oh yeah, since he was given a World Series team and put the team in the ****ter since then. :rolleyes:

Soxfest
06-24-2007, 11:37 PM
More lip service from Mr.Smugass:angry:

JB98
06-24-2007, 11:42 PM
I know trading Mark is the no brainer but I'll hate to see him go, for a whiteflag deal I'd rather send off Thome (not sure if anyone needs him) than Mark

How many AL contenders need a DH? You have a very limited pool of potential trading partners when it comes to JT. He's high-priced and not healthy. He's not going anywhere.

Hendu
06-24-2007, 11:44 PM
Kenny also needs to take responsibility for his own failure.1 playoff appearance in 7 years albeit a World Series that year is unacceptable.And in 2008,the rebuilding begins again.So yes he has made some excellent moves.But the question is where are the results?

I don't know about that; many of those years, we were in the race. And I'm sure most teams would trade multiple playoff appearances for one WS championship. However, I do think that the failure of our minor league system is a bit troublesome, especially now that our roster has so many holes.

oeo
06-24-2007, 11:45 PM
I disagree. I think that many/most fans were glad to see Mags go, despite his current success. I think that many were sad to see Frank go, but thought it was a prudent decision. I didn't like to see Rowand go, but were you watching how this board reacted to the Rowand-Thome trade? Overwhelmingly positive.

We need to trade Buehrle, though. He will give us a lot in return. I love the guy, but I don't want to pay him for 5 years and then try to build the team out of Free Agency (it isn't going to happen). Hate to say it, but we will suck for a few more years if we re-sign Mark. OTOH, we can get some young tools to help us build another title. Do you want be the old Sox and mediocre all the time? I don't.

We need that young talent which Buehrle will bring.

ZombieRob
06-24-2007, 11:48 PM
Well he did acquire and put together this team.So yea part of the problems stem from him.

Hendu
06-24-2007, 11:51 PM
We need to trade Buehrle, though. He will give us a lot in return. I love the guy, but I don't want to pay him for 5 years and then try to build the team out of Free Agency (it isn't going to happen). Hate to say it, but we will suck for a few more years if we re-sign Mark. OTOH, we can get some young tools to help us build another title. Do you want be the old Sox and mediocre all the time? I don't.

That's my feeling too. The $15-17 mil he may be making could fill a lot of holes and, lord knows, this team will be full of them in 08. Not to mention what we'll get in return for trading him.

This team is, let's face it, terrible and there's not much immediate help in the minors. I love Mark, but I don't think he's a luxury we can afford right now if we want to compete with Detroit, Cleveland and Minny.

DickAllen72
06-24-2007, 11:52 PM
How many AL contenders need a DH? You have a very limited pool of potential trading partners when it comes to JT. He's high-priced and not healthy. He's not going anywhere.
If he would only agree to waive his no-trade clause, the Sox could probably trade him to the Angels.

JB98
06-24-2007, 11:57 PM
If he would only agree to waive his no-trade clause, the Sox could probably trade him to the Angels.

That is one of the few teams that *might* be interested in JT. But thinking ahead to 2008, who is our left-handed power source in the middle of the order if we move JT?

It's bad enough that we've seen AJ hitting cleanup in recent games. I think we all know that AJ bats sixth or seventh in a good-hitting lineup.

I'm not necessarily against moving JT's salary, but the kind of left-handed production he provides, and the presence in the lineup he provides even this late in his career, is not easily replaced IMO.

oeo
06-25-2007, 12:01 AM
That is one of the few teams that *might* be interested in JT. But thinking ahead to 2008, who is our left-handed power source in the middle of the order if we move JT?

It's bad enough that we've seen AJ hitting cleanup in recent games. I think we all know that AJ bats sixth or seventh in a good-hitting lineup.

I'm not necessarily against moving JT's salary, but the kind of left-handed production he provides, and the presence in the lineup he provides even this late in his career, is not easily replaced IMO.

Build the '08 lineup around Paulie, AJ, Crede, and Thome. Every other starter can go (and off the bench I'd try to only keep Pablo and Terrero around).

I don't see the need to trade any of those guys named above.

DickAllen72
06-25-2007, 12:07 AM
That is one of the few teams that *might* be interested in JT. But thinking ahead to 2008, who is our left-handed power source in the middle of the order if we move JT?

It's bad enough that we've seen AJ hitting cleanup in recent games. I think we all know that AJ bats sixth or seventh in a good-hitting lineup.

I'm not necessarily against moving JT's salary, but the kind of left-handed production he provides, and the presence in the lineup he provides even this late in his career, is not easily replaced IMO.
Thome is an injury waiting to happen. Even when he has been healthy, he is very one-demensional as a player. Basically he hits RH pitching well and draws walks. He can't hit lefties, which is a weakness of the current team as a whole, can't play the field, isn't very fast, is aging and is always just one swing away from "tweaking" something and landing on the DL.

If the Sox were young and athletic at a lot of other positions I would gladly keep Thome but under the current circumstances I would try to move him if at all possible.

JB98
06-25-2007, 12:12 AM
Thome is an injury waiting to happen. Even when he has been healthy, he is very one-demensional as a player. Basically he hits RH pitching well and draws walks. He can't hit lefties, which is a weakness of the current team as a whole, can't play the field, isn't very fast, is aging and is always just one swing away from "tweaking" something and landing on the DL.

If the Sox were young and athletic at a lot of other positions I would gladly keep Thome but under the current circumstances I would try to move him if at all possible.

The same reasons you want to trade JT are the same reasons other teams might be reluctant to take him on. The injury situation is first and foremost among them.

I don't think we can move him, and I'm not sure we should. I agree 100 percent with the statement about getting younger and more athletic at other spots.

I'd say keep JT, Paulie and AJ as a veteran core. They are all basepluggers, but if we've revamp the team in other areas, we can resurrect the offense. Really, look up the middle of the diamond, and aside from AJ, I think we need changes.

I debate in my mind about Iguchi. But there's not much question that we need a new SS and a new CF.

Noneck
06-25-2007, 12:20 AM
If he would only agree to waive his no-trade clause, the Sox could probably trade him to the Angels.


Angels will pick up the rest of his contract? I doubt it, Thome is making Vlad type money for a couple more years. Maybe it would fly if the Sox picked up part of his salary. But if it would happen, it would be just a dump by Sox and nothing in return.

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-25-2007, 01:53 AM
Thome and his 500 career HR chase might be the only thing we have to look forward to next year.

harwar
06-25-2007, 07:57 AM
David Shuester interviewed Ken Williams after the game and it was pretty much a farewell to Mark Buehrle.
He was saying stuff like "when" not if he is traded and how much he is going to miss him and his family,and how sometimes you have to give up a great ballplayer to receive quality in return.
I've never heard KW sound so despondent.
It was exceedingly depressing.

Jjav829
06-25-2007, 08:03 AM
Kenny also needs to take responsibility for his own failure.1 playoff appearance in 7 years albeit a World Series that year is unacceptable.And in 2008,the rebuilding begins again.So yes he has made some excellent moves.But the question is where are the results?

I think 1 World Series championship every 7 years would be pretty good. I know what you're saying. We'd all like to see the Sox in the playoffs every year, but KW has managed to accomplish the most important thing - winning a World Series.

I disagree. I think that many/most fans were glad to see Mags go, despite his current success. I think that many were sad to see Frank go, but thought it was a prudent decision. I didn't like to see Rowand go, but were you watching how this board reacted to the Rowand-Thome trade? Overwhelmingly positive.

But from a pure fan standpoint, I think most fans would have rather seen the Sox keep Maggs, Frank, Rowand, etc. That's not to say those fans didn't understand the decision behind each of those moves or even support the decisions. Just the same, I think most fans will eventually come around to understand the decision to trade Buehrle, even if we'd all rather see him stay a White Sox.

spiffie
06-25-2007, 09:21 AM
That is one of the few teams that *might* be interested in JT. But thinking ahead to 2008, who is our left-handed power source in the middle of the order if we move JT?

It's bad enough that we've seen AJ hitting cleanup in recent games. I think we all know that AJ bats sixth or seventh in a good-hitting lineup.

I'm not necessarily against moving JT's salary, but the kind of left-handed production he provides, and the presence in the lineup he provides even this late in his career, is not easily replaced IMO.
Somehow we won a world series while our main lefty power came from Carl Everett and his staggering 246/317/441 with 18 HR.

spiffie
06-25-2007, 09:24 AM
But from a pure fan standpoint, I think most fans would have rather seen the Sox keep Maggs, Frank, Rowand, etc. That's not to say those fans didn't understand the decision behind each of those moves or even support the decisions. Just the same, I think most fans will eventually come around to understand the decision to trade Buehrle, even if we'd all rather see him stay a White Sox.
I agree on Frank and Rowand, but I think by the time Maggs actually left that all the goofiness with the Austrian doctors and agent garbage had soured a good chunk of the fanbase on him. Look at the reactions when each guy returned. Frank gets a standing ovation for hitting a HR off our own pitcher. Rowand got one of the loudest ovations when he came back on Ring Day. Maggs got and gets booed out of the stadium. Obviously I can't speak for more than those I know and my own sense of things, but the fans I know and heard from seemed more pissed off about the Carlos Lee deal than letting Ordonez leave.

Flight #24
06-25-2007, 11:21 AM
But from a pure fan standpoint, I think most fans would have rather seen the Sox keep Maggs, Frank, Rowand, etc. That's not to say those fans didn't understand the decision behind each of those moves or even support the decisions. Just the same, I think most fans will eventually come around to understand the decision to trade Buehrle, even if we'd all rather see him stay a White Sox.

I'm fine with trading Buehrle as long as it's not because they won't EVER give a pitcher a market-level deal. If you trade him because you need the prospects and don't anticipate contending for another year or 2, fine. But if you want to have a title-caliber team, sooner or later you're going to need to pony up and pay market rates for guys.

IMO the perfect Sox 6 months:
- Trade Contreras/Javy to Mets for SP prospects
- Trade Dye to LA for Billingsley
- Resign Buehrle to 5/$75
- Trade Billingsley, Mets prospects, Floyd, Anderson to Tampa for Crawford
- Sign Arod - $25-27M
- Resign Iguchi or sign other vet IF for $4M/yr
- Sign a vet RP for $3M

Rotation: Buehrle ($15)-Garland ($12)-Vazquez ($11.5)-Danks ($.33)-Gio($.33)--> Total: $39M
Lineup: Crawford ($5.5)-Iguchi ($4M)-ARod ($27M)-Thome ($8.5M)-Konerko ($12M)-AJ ($6M)-Fields ($.33M)-Sweeney ($.33m)-Erstad/Owens platoon ($1M total). --> Total: $63M
Bullpen: Jenks ($.5M)-Veteran ($3M)-Thornton ($.875M)-Masset ($.33M)-Logan ($.33M)-Macdougal ($2M) --> $6M

Total cost before bench: $108M. If you can field a bench for ~$5M, you have a $113M payroll, or roughly $10-12M more than the Sox are out of pocket right now for this piece of crap. But you also have a team with a nice blend of youth & experience and some proven talent that can contend year in & year out. The real key to this plan are 1)willingness to spend, 2)ability to flip SP prospects for Crawford, and 3)assuming that you can find 2-3 solid relievers out of the crap in the current pen once they've gone through a full year under Coop.

And as a side note, you'll also have the fans coming back in droves after this craptacular season, which is no small thing.

UserNameBlank
06-25-2007, 11:30 AM
IMO the perfect Sox 6 months:
- Trade Contreras/Javy to Mets for SP prospects
- Trade Dye to LA for Billingsley
- Resign Buehrle to 5/$75
- Trade Billingsley, Mets prospects, Floyd, Anderson to Tampa for Crawford



Jesus Christ man. You could get a Humber and/or Pelfrey and a position player and Billingsley and then you'd trade them all PLUS Floyd and Anderson for Crawford?

I seriously hope to God Carl Crawford never wears a White Sox uniform because if he ever does you will be well beyond disappointed when he fails to hit for a .650 average with 300 HRs and an OPS over 5 during a single season.

**Edit: The only way Carl Crawford could put up the types of numbers that would justify such a package would be if he was not a human being but rather a giant Transformer made out of used PS2s.

You name any offensive weapon in baseball - Pujols, Howard, Ortiz, Cabrera, Vladdy, Manny, ARod, Griffey, anyone - and if you put that one player on this Sox team we'd struggle to play .500 baseball at best. Surely Carl freaking Crawford isn't going to swoop down from the heavens like a superhero and save the decade.

bryPt
06-25-2007, 11:36 AM
If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he would have signed Maggs.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded Rowand.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he would have re-signed Frank.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded 3 HOF's in Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo and Mike Morse for Freddy Garcia.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded Carlos Lee.

You get my point. Kenny Williams' job isn't to worry about what the fans think. His job is to put together a team that can win championships now and/or in the future. If he feels that trading Mark Buehrle improves his chances of fielding that team, then that's what he should do, regardless of what the fans think.

well, I am a fan and I applauded all those trades. I hated Frank, I would take Thome over The Legend of Aaron Rowand anyday, and the Garcia thing, I wasn't worried about. Same with Lee.

Flight #24
06-25-2007, 11:48 AM
Jesus Christ man. You could get a Humber and/or Pelfrey and a position player and Billingsley and then you'd trade them all PLUS Floyd and Anderson for Crawford?

I seriously hope to God Carl Crawford never wears a White Sox uniform because if he ever does you will be well beyond disappointed when he fails to hit for a .650 average with 300 HRs and an OPS over 5 during a single season.

**Edit: The only way Carl Crawford could put up the types of numbers that would justify such a package would be if he was not a human being but rather a giant Transformer made out of used PS2s.

You name any offensive weapon in baseball - Pujols, Howard, Ortiz, Cabrera, Vladdy, Manny, ARod, Griffey, anyone - and if you put that one player on this Sox team we'd struggle to play .500 baseball at best. Surely Carl freaking Crawford isn't going to swoop down from the heavens like a superhero and save the decade.

First off, my assumption was that by trading Contereras/Vaz you'd get less. The 2d one is that if you can give less, you do that. But 2 top flight yet unproven SPs for a guy who's under a pretty low contract through 2010 and is already an allstar doesn't seem like robbery. I'm not sure on the value of Floyd and I can't believe Anderson has much given the way the Sox appear to think of him. It also fits Kenny's history of giving up quantity in the way of guys he doesn't see panning out for the team, especially if it helps him get his guy.

All CC has to do is what he's been doing. The real question is what will it take to pry him away.

Flight #24
06-25-2007, 11:52 AM
If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he wouldn't have traded Rowand.

If KW knew the pulse of the fans, he would have re-signed Frank.


IMO I continue to think that KW let his emotions get the better of him regarding Frank, and that ended up hurting the team. If he resigns him to a likely cheap deal and brings in another (likely cheaper) hitter to platoon with Frank, he has Rowand, Gio, Haigwood and some cash to play with.

Kenny didn't even entertain that option. He took his first real shot to get rid of Frank. And in some sense, he's still recovering from that since he had to trade Freddy to get Gio back and he's still looking for a CF.

UserNameBlank
06-25-2007, 11:59 AM
First off, my assumption was that by trading Contereras/Vaz you'd get less. The 2d one is that if you can give less, you do that. But 2 top flight yet unproven SPs for a guy who's under a pretty low contract through 2010 and is already an allstar doesn't seem like robbery. I'm not sure on the value of Floyd and I can't believe Anderson has much given the way the Sox appear to think of him. It also fits Kenny's history of giving up quantity in the way of guys he doesn't see panning out for the team, especially if it helps him get his guy.

All CC has to do is what he's been doing. The real question is what will it take to pry him away.
It'll take a lot to get Crawford but at this stage right now we can't afford to make that kind of deal. We have to get the young guys in here first, build a core on the cheap, and then make that kind of move. That's something the Tigers could get away with even if they did want to vastly overpay. Us? No way can we afford to do that.

BTW, there's no reason to sell low on BA and Gavin. Both guys have much more potential than they have shown at the major league level. The team is dead in the water (actually drowning would be more appropriate) so we can afford to give opportunities to these guys. If they bottom out, so what, they'll still have some value to someone, and it can't be a whole lot less than their present value. If they do very well though then we ight not need to deal them, or if we do, we can get a much, much better value.

Also I take it you haven't seen much of Billingsley either. I don't know much at all about Humber or Pelfrey (the Mets two top SP prospects) but Billingsley has a shot to be an ace. If you'd have seen him before I doubt you'd be so willing to deal him. If I had Billingsley and Danks right now I'd send out Danks before I'd send out Billingsley, and I really like Danks. If we could get him for Dye I would be well beyond shocked.

ilsox7
06-25-2007, 12:03 PM
IMO I continue to think that KW let his emotions get the better of him regarding Frank, and that ended up hurting the team. If he resigns him to a likely cheap deal and brings in another (likely cheaper) hitter to platoon with Frank, he has Rowand, Gio, Haigwood and some cash to play with.

Kenny didn't even entertain that option. He took his first real shot to get rid of Frank. And in some sense, he's still recovering from that since he had to trade Freddy to get Gio back and he's still looking for a CF.

Considering the rules of the CBA, Frank could not have signed with the Sox for less than $11MM I think it was. Also, even if Frank came back, then PK leaves.

spiffie
06-25-2007, 12:04 PM
IMO I continue to think that KW let his emotions get the better of him regarding Frank, and that ended up hurting the team. If he resigns him to a likely cheap deal and brings in another (likely cheaper) hitter to platoon with Frank, he has Rowand, Gio, Haigwood and some cash to play with.

Kenny didn't even entertain that option. He took his first real shot to get rid of Frank. And in some sense, he's still recovering from that since he had to trade Freddy to get Gio back and he's still looking for a CF.
Frank's option for 2006 was for $10 million. I highly doubt he was going to take a massive pay cut just to get another year or so on the contract. So maybe he takes a small cut and goes for 2/15 or so, but I doubt even that. So there was no way to resign Frank to a cheap deal.

Flight #24
06-25-2007, 12:11 PM
Considering the rules of the CBA, Frank could not have signed with the Sox for less than $11MM I think it was. Also, even if Frank came back, then PK leaves.

Frank's option for 2006 was for $10 million. I highly doubt he was going to take a massive pay cut just to get another year or so on the contract. So maybe he takes a small cut and goes for 2/15 or so, but I doubt even that. So there was no way to resign Frank to a cheap deal.

This is not the case. That's true if the Sox had offered him arbitration or exercised the option. Instead, they could have renegotiated the deal to extend it and eliminate the $10M option. He'd have done this because his alternative was to have the option declined and get cut (as actually happened).

Frank's on record as saying he would have resigned with the team cheaply and that his #1 goal was to stay with the Sox. He didn't get all that much from Oakland, so it wouldn't have cost the Sox much to keep him. His departure was NOT about $$$, not in the slightest. It was about KW.

103 screwball
06-25-2007, 12:20 PM
To be fair, there were serious injury concerns with Frank. KW was planning on another World Series and needed a hitter with good foot. In hind sight, keeping Frank, Rowand, Gio would have the team in a better situation right now. I was for it when it happened. It didn't work out.

ilsox7
06-25-2007, 12:22 PM
This is not the case. That's true if the Sox had offered him arbitration or exercised the option. Instead, they could have renegotiated the deal to extend it and eliminate the $10M option. He'd have done this because his alternative was to have the option declined and get cut (as actually happened).

Frank's on record as saying he would have resigned with the team cheaply and that his #1 goal was to stay with the Sox. He didn't get all that much from Oakland, so it wouldn't have cost the Sox much to keep him. His departure was NOT about $$$, not in the slightest. It was about KW.

Frank exercised his option with the Sox. Frank was not coming back here, no matter what. And if he had come back, we'd have a huge gaping hole at first base when PK left for LAA.

SoxxoS
06-25-2007, 12:30 PM
Bullpen: Jenks ($.5M)-Veteran ($3M)-Thornton ($.875M)-Masset ($.33M)-Logan ($.33M)-Macdougal ($2M) --> $6M


That is the same bullpen as this year - and the Sox better have a higher turnover than that.

I dont want to see Masset ever again. Thornton and Mac are reaching that territory, but I have more faith in them b/c they have proven they can get guys out in the past.

Masset has NEVER proved he can get guys consistantly in the majors. His minor league numbers are not that good. The best thing he has going for him is that he "Looks" like Bobby Jenks. Problems is, the hitters don't think he does.

balke
06-25-2007, 12:34 PM
That is the same bullpen as this year - and the Sox better have a higher turnover than that.

I dont want to see Masset ever again. Thornton and Mac are reaching that territory, but I have more faith in them b/c they have proven they can get guys out in the past.

Masset has NEVER proved he can get guys consistantly in the majors. His minor league numbers are not that good. The best thing he has going for him is that he "Looks" like Bobby Jenks. Problems is, the hitters don't think he does.

I think Massett could stay as our weakest bullpen guy if there were stronger guys ahead of him. Unfortunately that's not the case. He was looking "OK" for a while. Never good or great.

JB98
06-25-2007, 01:04 PM
Somehow we won a world series while our main lefty power came from Carl Everett and his staggering 246/317/441 with 18 HR.

We also had damn near everyone on our pitching staff enjoying a career year. I don't think we can expect our next title to be won the exact same way the 2005 title was won.

spiffie
06-25-2007, 01:30 PM
We also had damn near everyone on our pitching staff enjoying a career year. I don't think we can expect our next title to be won the exact same way the 2005 title was won.
Agreed, but people talk as though we simply have no chance of winning without a major LH power bat. There are plenty of arguments against trading Jim Thome, but the idea that somehow we become a weaker team simply by virtue of not having a major HR hitter who happens to be lefty does not strike me as one that is very convincing. Especially when that LH hitter is basically useless against LH pitching, in a division dominated by LH pitchers. Hell, with the AL Central set up as is these days, we'd be better off possibly with nine RH batters as our everyday lineup.

ilsox7
06-25-2007, 01:37 PM
Agreed, but people talk as though we simply have no chance of winning without a major LH power bat. There are plenty of arguments against trading Jim Thome, but the idea that somehow we become a weaker team simply by virtue of not having a major HR hitter who happens to be lefty does not strike me as one that is very convincing. Especially when that LH hitter is basically useless against LH pitching, in a division dominated by LH pitchers. Hell, with the AL Central set up as is these days, we'd be better off possibly with nine RH batters as our everyday lineup.

First and foremost, he has a NTC and there are very few teams who need him.