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rowand33
06-21-2007, 09:38 PM
from rotoworld:


According to ESPN.com's Jayson Stark, the Braves are much more interested in Mark Buehrle than the Mets are.

The Mets have indicated don't want to give up Lastings Milledge or Carlos Gomez for a player in his walk year, and it's safe to assume the Braves feel the same way when it comes to Jarrod Saltalamacchia. Yunel Escobar is a player we bet the White Sox would have a lot of interest in. The Braves value him highly, but it might be worth surrendering him to add Buehrle to the rotation.
Source: ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2910803)

interesting.

whitesoxfan
06-21-2007, 09:43 PM
If Buehrle were traded to ATL, I would demand that Saltalamacchia be brought back in return.

jdm2662
06-21-2007, 09:43 PM
The better question is, what team that is competing for a playoff spot is NOT targeting Mark.

SoxxoS
06-21-2007, 09:44 PM
I want Joey Devine then

cws05champ
06-21-2007, 09:46 PM
I agree...if the Sox were to trade Buehrle I hope Kenny waits awhile to let the bidding between teams heat up and not take the first offer. We may be able to get 2 top prospects for him.

UserNameBlank
06-21-2007, 09:49 PM
On Yunel (http://mvn.com/milb-braves/2007/03/13/prospect-profile-yunel-escobar/) and his numbers this year (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Yunel%2520Escobar&pos=SS&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=488862).

Sure he's a SS who may hit for a little power, but this move doesn't strike me as ninja enough for KW. Another big piece needs to be thrown in here to deal Mark.

IMO, the most ninja thing that KW could do would be to figure out a way to get us a very good SS who can start in 2008 and a high-ceiling SP no more than 2 years away and then re-sign Mark in the offseason. Now that would obviously be a longshot, but that's what ninja do; they make moves no one sees coming.

mjharrison72
06-21-2007, 09:54 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/Scaramanga22.jpg
Saltalamacchia?

Frontman
06-21-2007, 10:02 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/Scaramanga22.jpg
Saltalamacchia?




:kneeslap::rolling:

chaerulez
06-21-2007, 10:03 PM
I would do Salty and Escobar in a second.

oeo
06-21-2007, 11:05 PM
Any deal without Willie in it, is crap.

I do have to say, though, if Buehrle isn't going to re-sign here, it wouldn't bother me to see him in a Braves uniform.

DSpivack
06-21-2007, 11:26 PM
Any deal without Willie in it, is crap.

I do have to say, though, if Buehrle isn't going to re-sign here, it wouldn't bother me to see him in a Braves uniform.


He might just arrive in Atlanta as I am leaving. I don't dislike the Braves, certainly have seen them enough.

FedEx227
06-21-2007, 11:40 PM
I would do Salty and Escobar in a second.

I also liked Lillibridge as well.

Alot of people have a pipe-dream of Salty, I don't see it ever happening. His future is at 1B with McCann holding down the C.

Something like a Devine, Escobar (or Lillibridge) and another prospect would probably be more likely.

DumpJerry
06-21-2007, 11:50 PM
What can the Braves offer us? They have won the World Series only three times since 1914. How are they better than us?

DrewSox56
06-21-2007, 11:50 PM
Ok - I'll ask the question:

How in the blue hell are the Braves going to acquire Buehrle? If you're assuming we're going to sell him off in July, then what do they got in their system piled up that is equal for a deadline trade that they can afford to give up? The ****ing Mets can't win a series in 10 and they still can't get ahead...

And we all know they can't afford a real contract after the season.

They can "eye" him all they want... There's no way in hell he'll end up there.

oeo
06-22-2007, 12:33 AM
They can "eye" him all they want... There's no way in hell he'll end up there.

:?:

If they offer what Kenny wants, then yes, he will end up there.

FedEx227
06-22-2007, 12:35 AM
Ok - I'll ask the question:

How in the blue hell are the Braves going to acquire Buehrle? If you're assuming we're going to sell him off in July, then what do they got in their system piled up that is equal for a deadline trade that they can afford to give up? The ****ing Mets can't win a series in 10 and they still can't get ahead...

And we all know they can't afford a real contract after the season.

They can "eye" him all they want... There's no way in hell he'll end up there.

You might want to take a look at the Braves farm system. They have a top 5 system in all of baseball. They have plenty of pieces teams would drool over. They have 3 catchers that any team in the majors minus the Twins would love to have.

And the NL is VERY winnable from any team. If you take a look at those standings there are no standout teams. One extra piece to a fringe team like the Braves can turn them into favorites.

DrewSox56
06-22-2007, 12:38 AM
You might want to take a look at the Braves farm system. They have a top 5 system in all of baseball. They have plenty of pieces teams would drool over. They have 3 catchers that any team in the majors minus the Twins would love to have.

And the NL is VERY winnable from any team. If you take a look at those standings there are no standout teams. One extra piece to a fringe team like the Braves can turn them into favorites.

What does any of this have to do with:

A.) Us getting better
B.) Losing Buehrle

Talk about Ichiro. Talk about something marquis... a foundation player (A-Rod)... Not the Braves ****ing NL ready farm system.

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-22-2007, 12:41 AM
A.) Us getting worse by losing Buehrle

Fixed it for you.

FedEx227
06-22-2007, 12:41 AM
What does any of this have to do with:

A.) Us getting better
B.) Losing Buehrle

Talk about Ichiro. Talk about something marquis... a foundation player (A-Rod)... Not the Braves ****ing NL ready farm system.

Have you seen the state the White Sox farm system is in? You can't become a long-term winner patch working your team with expensive free agents, sorry it won't happen.

No, a deal involving Buehrle and prospects will not get us any better this year, but you have to look at the long term.

This is a farm system that features not ONE standout offensive player, and not ONE high-ceiling middle infield prospect. That's a problem, and if we try to patch it up by throwing money at guys we will end up in a very bad position down the road.

oeo
06-22-2007, 12:57 AM
What does any of this have to do with:

A.) Us getting better
B.) Losing Buehrle

Talk about Ichiro. Talk about something marquis... a foundation player (A-Rod)... Not the Braves ****ing NL ready farm system.

Are we going to sign an Ichiro at every outfield position next year? And an A-Rod in the middle infield? Get real.

And what does the Braves being in the NL have anything to do with their farm system? :?:

DrewSox56
06-22-2007, 12:57 AM
Have you seen the state the White Sox farm system is in? You can't become a long-term winner patch working your team with expensive free agents, sorry it won't happen.

No, a deal involving Buehrle and prospects will not get us any better this year, but you have to look at the long term.

This is a farm system that features not ONE standout offensive player, and not ONE high-ceiling middle infield prospect. That's a problem, and if we try to patch it up by throwing money at guys we will end up in a very bad position down the road.

How so? We've been spending our time trying to develop speedy outfielders that can't hit, can't run without ****ing up, can't take a walk, and the one's we trade for aren't healthy.....

We have 7 good innings to put into EVERY GAME - as good as anyone. We don't hit the whole way, and if it's close, we can't count on relief.

Now... FEDEX... do you really want to talk about what you can get for BUEHRLE????????? You have what you need already, sir. SP is not the place for any patch work, not in July, not in the offseason. Please don't suggest any of it be ****ed with... PLEASE.

We need men who can hit, run, steal bases, etc. In sum - Offense.

*Edit - Almost forgot the theme of the thread - None of this can come from the Braves. And certainly not from 3 catchers.

FedEx227
06-22-2007, 01:07 AM
How so? We've been spending our time trying to develop speedy outfielders that can't hit, can't run without ****ing up, can't take a walk, and the one's we trade for aren't healthy.....

We have 7 good innings to put into EVERY GAME - as good as anyone. We don't hit the whole way, and if it's close, we can't count on relief.

Now... FEDEX... do you really want to talk about what you can get for BUEHRLE????????? You have what you need already, sir. SP is not the place for any patch work, not in July, not in the offseason. Please don't suggest any of it be ****ed with... PLEASE.

We need men who can hit, run, steal bases, etc. In sum - Offense.

Um, do you realize the only reason we're discussing Buehrle getting traded is because he's a FA. If he was signed for the next 3-4 years there is no way I'd move him. But why are we going to keep him around for another pathetic 1/2 season only to have him go to greener pasteurize.

Not really understanding your point here. The point of moving Buehrle is not to improve our team, it's a necessity unless we can resign him. I don't want a Washington Nationals to happen where a big FA leaves and all we have to show for it is a sandwich draft pick.

If I'm missing your point please let me know, but I'm pretty sure your missing ours and every single other Sox fans point. Buehrle is NOT signed next year. NOT SIGNED.

DrewSox56
06-22-2007, 01:15 AM
Um, do you realize the only reason we're discussing Buehrle getting traded is because he's a FA. If he was signed for the next 3-4 years there is no way I'd move him. But why are we going to keep him around for another pathetic 1/2 season only to have him go to greener pasteurize.

Not really understanding your point here. The point of moving Buehrle is not to improve our team, it's a necessity unless we can resign him. I don't want a Washington Nationals to happen where a big FA leaves and all we have to show for it is a sandwich draft pick.

If I'm missing your point please let me know, but I'm pretty sure your missing ours and every single other Sox fans point. Buehrle is NOT signed next year. NOT SIGNED.

We need to re-sign him.

<We had a thread come up on this>


OFFENSE! SPEED! BASERUNNING!

(Not Mark Buehrle.)

Thought you got that Fed... "and every single other Sox fan".....

It was a disappointing night the last time I posted, but I think I remember saying that Buehlre was the closest thing I can remember to us having a Johan Santana... at least as I've been a fan for 20 years...

You don't trade that in July unless you're stupid. You give yourself every chance you can to resign him unless your stupid.

Forget about this Buehrle to Atlanta crap.

Not going to happen.

kaufsox
06-22-2007, 01:22 AM
What can the Braves offer us? They have won the World Series only three times since 1914. How are they better than us?

you're kidding, right?:?:

A. Cavatica
06-22-2007, 01:24 AM
Talk about something marquis

Jason Marquis is no longer a Brave. Neither is Marquis Grissom.

The word you're looking for is marquee.

DeadMoney
06-22-2007, 01:27 AM
do you really want to talk about what you can get for BUEHRLE????????? You have what you need already, sir. SP is not the place for any patch work, not in July, not in the offseason. Please don't suggest any of it be ****ed with... PLEASE.

:?:

If the Sox (and almost every Sox fan) were absolutely positive that the Sox could keep Buehrle for more than the next 3 months, then I agree. But, since that isn't the case, why should the Sox be forced to lose Buehrle for almost nothing? (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sox would still get a sandwich pick (http://soxprospects.wikispaces.com/MLB+Compensatory+Draft+Pick+System) for an offseason signing with another team)

I think many of us have also chalked up this season as done, and taking that into consideration, why should the Sox keep Buehrle (to complete a terrible White Sox season) if they're not going to be able to retain him? And to be honest, it's likely that the more that this team struggles, the more he'll be less likely to come back (no matter how much money they throw at him). So, even though we all know that it will suck to lose Buehrle from the rotation, we also have to realize that getting some package in return for him is much more valuable than a sandwich pick in next year's draft.

Although, if Kenny sees any way that he may be able to sign him come year's end, then forget everything I said above.

DrewSox56
06-22-2007, 01:30 AM
Jason Marquis is no longer a Brave. Neither is Marquis Grissom.

The word you're looking for is marquee.


Thanks for the help on that. It will never happen again, and if, by any chance, my mispelling of the word MARQUEE may have any bearing on your objective consideration of my thoughts, let me be the first to tell you...

ah, who cares what you pretend to actually think anyway. From now on: You are Mr. "Post Count" to me, dictionary-boy.

KRS1
06-22-2007, 01:38 AM
ah, who cares what you pretend to actually think anyway.


"pretend to actually think"?

I'm not sure one can "pretend to actually think," or at least understand why they would. I mean nothing is impossible, but.... Did you mean "pretend to actually know?"

ilsox7
06-22-2007, 01:39 AM
It was a disappointing night the last time I posted, but I think I remember saying that Buehlre was the closest thing I can remember to us having a Johan Santana... at least as I've been a fan for 20 years...


And as I said before, Mark is not even close to Johan .

DrewSox56
06-22-2007, 01:41 AM
"pretend to actually think"?

I'm not sure one can "pretend to actually think," or at least understand why they would. I mean nothing is impossible, but.... Did you mean "pretend to actually know?"

No - I meant what I said: Do you give people the impression that you are thinking (i.e. - "pretend to actually think?)

Get it?

KRS1
06-22-2007, 01:44 AM
No - I meant what I said: Do you give people the impression that you are thinking (i.e. - "pretend to actually think?)

Get it stupid?

ah, who cares what you pretend to actually think anyway.

And that was a great way to go about saying that. Excellent sentence.


Okay then. See you under your next screen name.

KRS1
06-22-2007, 01:45 AM
No - I meant what I said: Do you give people the impression that you are thinking (i.e. - "pretend to actually think?)

Get it?


Oh man. Why did you have to go and take out the best part of your post.

DrewSox56
06-22-2007, 01:50 AM
Oh man. Why did you have to go and take out the best part of your post.

No need to be redundant.

KRS1
06-22-2007, 01:50 AM
What happened to that last post?

RadioheadRocks
06-22-2007, 01:55 AM
I think we all know where this is going...

KRS1
06-22-2007, 01:56 AM
I think we all know where this is going...


Well, he keeps deleting every other thing he says, so who knows.

DrewSox56
06-22-2007, 02:03 AM
Well, he keeps deleting every other thing he says, so who knows.

KRS: "West - Please make me a Mod!!!!"

< :?: Get a grip, dude. I don't think there's anything to see here so... no promotion for you little fa...fella.>

KRS1
06-22-2007, 02:07 AM
KRS: "West - Please make me a Mod!!!!"

< :?: Get a grip, dude. I don't think there's anything to see here so... no promotion for you little fa...fella.>


First off, learn some respect. This isnt a place to just attack people in every one of your posts. Second, why would I ever want to be a mod? They have to deal with people like you all the time, and I don't have that kind of patience.

DrewSox56
06-22-2007, 02:13 AM
First off, learn some respect. This isnt a place to just attack people in every one of your posts. Second, why would I ever want to be a mod? They have to deal with people like you all the time, and I don't have that kind of patience.


1. I've been objective about the SUBJECT the whole time.
2. You are concerned with my edits while I'm under attack for being a minor member (low post count).
3. I don't respect post counts.
4. I don't see you as a any smarter/better. I'm a White Sox fan - I've only missed 6 games this year. I'm 33 and I've been a White Sox fan my whole life; I love the whole sport; but the Sox are my passion.

Kiss my ass (I won't edit that).

KRS1
06-22-2007, 02:18 AM
1. I've been objective about the SUBJECT the whole time.
2. You are concerned with my edits while I'm under attack for being a minor member (low post count).
3. I don't respect post counts.
4. I don't see you as a any smarter/better. I'm a White Sox fan - I've only missed 6 games this year. I'm 33 and I've been a White Sox fan my whole life; I love the whole sport; but the Sox are my passion.

Kiss my ass (I won't edit that).


It's not about respecting post counts, it's about being respectful of EVERYONE here. If you act like you have, then dont expect any respect from people here. No one cares about your status as a member, new or old, everyone here needs to carry on respectful conversation here, which you plain and simple have not.

DrewSox56
06-22-2007, 02:24 AM
Ok - I'll ask the question:

How in the blue hell are the Braves going to acquire Buehrle? If you're assuming we're going to sell him off in July, then what do they got in their system piled up that is equal for a deadline trade that they can afford to give up? The ****ing Mets can't win a series in 10 and they still can't get ahead...

And we all know they can't afford a real contract after the season.

They can "eye" him all they want... There's no way in hell he'll end up there.

What does any of this have to do with:

A.) Us getting better
B.) Losing Buehrle

Talk about Ichiro. Talk about something marquis... a foundation player (A-Rod)... Not the Braves ****ing NL ready farm system.

How so? We've been spending our time trying to develop speedy outfielders that can't hit, can't run without ****ing up, can't take a walk, and the one's we trade for aren't healthy.....

We have 7 good innings to put into EVERY GAME - as good as anyone. We don't hit the whole way, and if it's close, we can't count on relief.

Now... FEDEX... do you really want to talk about what you can get for BUEHRLE????????? You have what you need already, sir. SP is not the place for any patch work, not in July, not in the offseason. Please don't suggest any of it be ****ed with... PLEASE.

We need men who can hit, run, steal bases, etc. In sum - Offense.

*Edit - Almost forgot the theme of the thread - None of this can come from the Braves. And certainly not from 3 catchers.

We need to re-sign him.

<We had a thread come up on this>


OFFENSE! SPEED! BASERUNNING!

(Not Mark Buehrle.)

Thought you got that Fed... "and every single other Sox fan".....

It was a disappointing night the last time I posted, but I think I remember saying that Buehlre was the closest thing I can remember to us having a Johan Santana... at least as I've been a fan for 20 years...

You don't trade that in July unless you're stupid. You give yourself every chance you can to resign him unless your stupid.

Forget about this Buehrle to Atlanta crap.

Not going to happen.

These were my posts until I had a misspelling sarcastically pointed out to me as if I was an idiot... All down hill from there.

I guess I was out of line.

StillMissOzzie
06-22-2007, 03:04 AM
Ok - I'll ask the question:

How in the blue hell are the Braves going to acquire Buehrle? If you're assuming we're going to sell him off in July, then what do they got in their system piled up that is equal for a deadline trade that they can afford to give up? The ****ing Mets can't win a series in 10 and they still can't get ahead...

And we all know they can't afford a real contract after the season.

They can "eye" him all they want... There's no way in hell he'll end up there.

:?:

If they offer what Kenny wants, then yes, he will end up there.

I have no interest in competing in this pissing contest regarding whether Buehrle will end up in Atlanta or not, but here's my $0.02

1) Buehrle wants too much-too much $ (more than $15M-$16M)and/or too many years (more than 4) than the Sox will offer
2) KW already knows whether or not Buehrle will be back, and I think the answer is no. KW is "buying", but he's shopping for next year.
3) The positions involved may not matter nearly as much as the quality of the prospects, since KW can flip said prospects to fill needs
4) If Atlanta can put together the best basket of quality prospects, that's where he is going.

SMO
:(:

DumpJerry
06-22-2007, 07:46 AM
you're kidding, right?:?:
Do I always have to use teal?:tongue:

StepsInSC
06-22-2007, 08:40 AM
I would do Salty and Escobar in a second.

Frankly, that's a no-brainer IMO. But what are the odds the Braves are willing to give them both up for a pitcher they know they can't resign? This seems like a tough spot for KW. It gets a lot more gray when you start talking about just Escobar or Escobar and a much less touted prospect than Salty. Or, forget Escobar and go after Lillibridge. I could swallow a deal if we got either Escobar or Lillibridge.

balke
06-22-2007, 09:31 AM
I have no interest in competing in this pissing contest regarding whether Buehrle will end up in Atlanta or not, but here's my $0.02

1) Buehrle wants too much-too much $ (more than $15M-$16M)and/or too many years (more than 4) than the Sox will offer
2) KW already knows whether or not Buehrle will be back, and I think the answer is no. KW is "buying", but he's shopping for next year.


SMO
:(:

I think that's a bit presumptious. Noone really has an idea of what Buehrle wants, and that might even include him. I don't think he's gonna low-ball himself, but he might not be asking for exactly what Zito got. As I said before, Zito has a Cy Young on his resume. Buehrle is every bit as good, but without that on his resume I don't think he'll command as much.

If the Sox want Buehrle, they can sign Buehrle. Kenny needs to stick to his word on starting pitching winning championships.

ilsox7
06-22-2007, 02:24 PM
If the Sox want Buehrle, they can sign Buehrle. Kenny needs to stick to his word on starting pitching winning championships.

Whether KW signs Mark or not has absolutely nothing to do with his philosophy that pitching wins championships.

balke
06-22-2007, 05:18 PM
Whether KW signs Mark or not has absolutely nothing to do with his philosophy that pitching wins championships.

Really? I think losing your best pitcher to free agency is moving in the exact opposite direction of building a team around starting pitching.

ilsox7
06-22-2007, 05:26 PM
Really? I think losing your best pitcher to free agency is moving in the exact opposite direction of building a team around starting pitching.

Not if signing that starting pitcher inhibits signing other quality players. Just b/c KW might not re-sign Mark has absolutely no correlation with his philosophy on winning baseball. It just means he either did not feel Mark was worth a certain amount or figures he can spend such money better on other players.

balke
06-22-2007, 05:37 PM
Not if signing that starting pitcher inhibits signing other quality players. Just b/c KW might not re-sign Mark has absolutely no correlation with his philosophy on winning baseball. It just means he either did not feel Mark was worth a certain amount or figures he can spend such money better on other players.


I highly doubt that money is going to a better player. Definitely not a better player so young. The Sox need to get over the "We don't do long term contracts" philosophy and they need to pony up here. Signing Ichiro won't do a single thing for this team if the 5th starter is Gavin Floyd next season.

ilsox7
06-22-2007, 05:40 PM
I highly doubt that money is going to a better player. Definitely not a better player so young. The Sox need to get over the "We don't do long term contracts" philosophy and they need to pony up here. Signing Ichiro won't do a single thing for this team if the 5th starter is Gavin Floyd next season.

I completely disagree. Gavin is actually putting up good numbers this year. Meanwhile Mark is one half season removed from being awful. Sinking 20% of your payroll in a true ace I could live with. Mark, while being a good pitcher, is not a stopper a la Johan.

EndemicSox
06-22-2007, 05:48 PM
Unless MB has told Reinsdorf he has no intention to re-sign with White Sox, I'm going to be beyond pissed if they trade him. Playing the poor-bastard card has got to stop. This is friggin Chicago. Sell the team if you can't hack it in the baseball world JR.

Hitmen77
06-22-2007, 06:03 PM
I completely disagree. Gavin is actually putting up good numbers this year. Meanwhile Mark is one half season removed from being awful. Sinking 20% of your payroll in a true ace I could live with. Mark, while being a good pitcher, is not a stopper a la Johan.

I'll be very surprised - pleasantly so - but very surprised if Gavin Floyd is even half the pitcher for us next year than Mark is.

You say 20% of the payroll. Well, I agree that if Mark is looking for $20 million/yr out of our $100 million payroll, then yes that's too much, good luck, and thanks for the memories.

...but I think what we're talking about here is that the Sox offered him a 3 yr/$36 mil deal and act as if they have totally reached a dead end on contract talks. They won't even offer $15 million for him - which would be about 15% of our payroll......and yet they'll devote 12% of our payroll to Javier "Meltdown" Vazquez.

The problem is reportedly years - not money. Here, they locked up Javy for 4 more years before this season started. They locked up Jose (who was, at best, 35 at the time) for 4 more years before the beginning of the '06 season. So, one more year is beyond even having talks about for someone like Mark Buehrle? Again, if Mark wants more than 5 yrs, so long and good luck.

We'll have to see how this all plays out. But, I agree with Balke on this one - I highly doubt the money is going to go to a player that is better than Mark Buehrle.

ilsox7
06-22-2007, 06:10 PM
...but I think what we're talking about here is that the Sox offered him a 3 yr/$36 mil deal and act as if they have totally reached a dead end on contract talks. They won't even offer $15 million for him - which would be about 15% of our payroll......

No one here really has any idea what the Sox will offer.

Hitmen77
06-22-2007, 06:16 PM
No one here really has any idea what the Sox will offer.

Yes, we'll have to see how this all plays out.

But, if I'm not mistaken, the information about the 3yr/$36mill offer has been confirmed by KW and he's also been pretty clear that the door is closed about further negotiations. That gives us a pretty good indication of where this is going. No, we can't say for certain what'll happen in the end. We'll find out soon enough.

balke
06-22-2007, 07:14 PM
I completely disagree. Gavin is actually putting up good numbers this year. Meanwhile Mark is one half season removed from being awful. Sinking 20% of your payroll in a true ace I could live with. Mark, while being a good pitcher, is not a stopper a la Johan.

Really. There's not a stopper in the world a la johan or peavy. Johan will cost the Sox about 20 million dollars I'll bet, if not more. And I can pretty much guarantee the Sox won't be the ones putting it up. So keep dreaming on something like that, I'll live in the reality that the Sox can and should pay 15 a year for 3+ years for a consistant farm prospect that has won a world series for this organization.

ilsox7
06-22-2007, 07:24 PM
Really. There's not a stopper in the world a la johan or peavy. Johan will cost the Sox about 20 million dollars I'll bet, if not more. And I can pretty much guarantee the Sox won't be the ones putting it up. So keep dreaming on something like that, I'll live in the reality that the Sox can and should pay 15 a year for 3+ years for a consistant farm prospect that has won a world series for this organization.

3+ years is pretty vague. 3+ years most likely means 5 or 6. That's a long, long time for a guy like Mark. Nowhere did I say I expect the Sox to sign Johan or Peavy or spend $20MM on a pitcher. In fact, unless payroll increases substanitally, spending $20MM on a pitcher would be dumb.

BTW, I live in reality too. My reality says that, while Mark is a good pitcher, he is not a world beater. If the Sox can re-sign him at a reasonable rate, then I am all for it. If not, get max return in the next 6 weeks.

balke
06-22-2007, 07:32 PM
3+ years is pretty vague. 3+ years most likely means 5 or 6. That's a long, long time for a guy like Mark.

He doesn't have to be a world beater. He is a great pitcher who gets 6+ innings nearly every game and keeps his ERA under 4 in U.S. Cellular Field. He doesn't throw a 97 MPH fastball, so I don't see what there is that's a risk for him at 5 or 6 years. He's just a great pitcher who gets people out, without relying on blazing fastball that puts a lot of wear on his arm.

Malgar 12
06-22-2007, 08:43 PM
He doesn't have to be a world beater. He is a great pitcher who gets 6+ innings nearly every game and keeps his ERA under 4 in U.S. Cellular Field. He doesn't throw a 97 MPH fastball, so I don't see what there is that's a risk for him at 5 or 6 years. He's just a great pitcher who gets people out, without relying on blazing fastball that puts a lot of wear on his arm.

Since when is there a correlation between the speed of your fastball and a pitcher's health? Any six year contract for a pitcher, at that kind of money, is a big risk.

UserNameBlank
06-22-2007, 08:51 PM
He doesn't have to be a world beater. He is a great pitcher who gets 6+ innings nearly every game and keeps his ERA under 4 in U.S. Cellular Field. He doesn't throw a 97 MPH fastball, so I don't see what there is that's a risk for him at 5 or 6 years. He's just a great pitcher who gets people out, without relying on blazing fastball that puts a lot of wear on his arm.
I agree with this. If the Sox are going to "overpay" (at least in their minds) for any pitcher, it should be someone like Buehrle. A consistent winner without an injury history who pitches 200+ innings every year and keeps his team in ballgames even when he doesn't have it working is the type of guy you can rely on. If we were in the Cubs' shoes with Zambrano and they were in ours with Buehrle, I could see the Sox not wanting to commit to a contract beyond three years.

Also Zito has been mentioned quite a bit, and usually is mentioned in any discussion about Buehrle's contract. Yes the numbers are similar, but Mark has pitched his entire career in a hitter's ballpark while Zito has pitched in pitcher-friendly McAfee Coliseum. Imagine what Mark could do with all that foul territory to play with. He could even win a Cy Young...

All that said, if the Sox are going to continue to be stubborn about this whole thing I hope they trade him. If we're going to let a horse like Mark walk we had better get something better than a couple of high-upside college pitchers with no secondary pitches that we'll probably end up with in the draft. If the KW-JR connection is unwilling to give Mark what the market would term as a fair deal, we need to get a pitcher and at least one position player that can help us soon.

soltrain21
06-22-2007, 08:53 PM
Unless MB has told Reinsdorf he has no intention to re-sign with White Sox, I'm going to be beyond pissed if they trade him. Playing the poor-bastard card has got to stop. This is friggin Chicago. Sell the team if you can't hack it in the baseball world JR.


Have you watched this team this year? We need much more than signing Mark. If a trade helps us in the long run, we need to do it.

When was the last time JR played the "poor bastard" card? Our payroll is pretty high right now.

GoSox2K3
06-23-2007, 12:11 PM
I completely disagree. Gavin is actually putting up good numbers this year. Meanwhile Mark is one half season removed from being awful. Sinking 20% of your payroll in a true ace I could live with. Mark, while being a good pitcher, is not a stopper a la Johan.

I already posted this in the "Dump Contreras/Vazquez" thread - Mark might not be Johan or Maddux. Mark Buehrle will most likely not be a hall of famer. But, I know what Mark is - he's the kind of player who has a good chance to have his face and # on the LF wall at the Cell someday. That should be good enough to make an exception to the "Jamie Navarro rule".

The choice for the Sox next year isn't Mark or Johan - it's Mark or Javy/Jose. What kind of team are we going to be? One that rebuilds a rotation around Mark Buehrle or one that builds a rotation around Javier Vazquez? Indications are that it's the latter because this organization believes both pitchers are worth the same amount of money and years.

Unfortunately, I really find it hard to believe that a rotation anchored by Javy and Jose instead of Mark and Garland are going to compete within our division.

If Mark wants a Zito-type deal - then yes I agree the Sox should say no. But to take their own stupidity over Jamie Navarro and twist that into a "everyone gets the same low ball deal whether their name is Javier Vazquez or Mark Buehrle" unbendable rule will likely make us less competitive in the years to come.

ilsox7
06-23-2007, 12:18 PM
If Mark wants a Zito-type deal - then yes I agree the Sox should say no. But to take their own stupidity over Jamie Navarro and twist that into a "everyone gets the same low ball deal whether their name is Javier Vazquez or Mark Buehrle" unbendable rule will likely make us less competitive in the years to come.

The Sox have shown in the past (PK anyone?) that they will go against their supposed rules if the situation calls for it. My guess (and that's all it is) is Mark will get a 4 year offer. I think that's fair and I wouldn't go higher than that. But some team will.

balke
06-23-2007, 12:25 PM
Since when is there a correlation between the speed of your fastball and a pitcher's health? Any six year contract for a pitcher, at that kind of money, is a big risk.

Randy Johnson, Brad Lidge, A.J. Burnett, Pedro, Harden, Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Mike Gonzalez, Clement, Bedard, Schilling, Dontrelle Willis, Jared Weaver, Jason Schmidt, Francisco Liriano, Huston Street, Chris Carpenter, Mark Mulder, Eric Gagne, B.J. Ryan. Edit: almost forgot Halladay.

These are all guys who have been injured this season, or TIME AND TIME AND AGAIN. When's the last time Buehrle was injured? People don't realize what the Sox have here with Mark Buehrle. He's extremely valuable, especially on a team with a stadium like this, and a farm system that doesn't seem to have the next Johan coming up within the ranks.

balke
06-23-2007, 12:26 PM
The Sox have shown in the past (PK anyone?) that they will go against their supposed rules if the situation calls for it. My guess (and that's all it is) is Mark will get a 4 year offer. I think that's fair and I wouldn't go higher than that. But some team will.

I would go 5, not the 6 that you made up. Actually I would go 5 with a team option for 6 if possible, possibly a two year option. Pitchers are going deep into thier 40's these days.

Scottiehaswheels
06-23-2007, 12:28 PM
Anyways, back to ATL trading for Mark... Any chance we could get a scouting director as a throw-in?:D:

GoSox2K3
06-23-2007, 12:33 PM
The Sox have shown in the past (PK anyone?) that they will go against their supposed rules if the situation calls for it. My guess (and that's all it is) is Mark will get a 4 year offer. I think that's fair and I wouldn't go higher than that. But some team will.

I would also guess that the Sox will go as high as 4 yrs for Mark. The sticking point will likely be a 5th year.

If Mark wants 6 or 7 years, then I think that's too much of a risk and I am sure the Sox wouldn't go for that and I really couldn't blame them for that position.

Letting Mark go isn't going to give us a whole ton of money to spend elsewhere to improve the team. The difference between signing MB for $15 million per year and then trading Javy - or just letting MB go and sticking with Javy is only $3 million. We're not going to add alot more to our roster for an extra $3 million freed up.

ilsox7
06-23-2007, 12:56 PM
I would go 5, not the 6 that you made up. Actually I would go 5 with a team option for 6 if possible, possibly a two year option. Pitchers are going deep into thier 40's these days.

Made up? I didn't make up anything. There is precedent for 6 year deals now.

Grzegorz
06-23-2007, 01:04 PM
3+ years is pretty vague. 3+ years most likely means 5 or 6. That's a long, long time for a guy like Mark.

Actually Buehrle strikes me as a guy that can pitch as long as Jamie Moyer. Whether some team will sign him for five to six years is a different story.

The Racehorse
06-23-2007, 01:05 PM
I'd do Kelly Johnson & Francoeur for Buehrle in a heartbeat.

ilsox7
06-23-2007, 01:08 PM
Actually Buehrle strikes me as a guy that can pitch as long as Jamie Moyer. Whether some team will sign him for five to six years is a different story.

It's not so much the injury factor that scares me, it's the fact that Mark has had a couple of long stretches (aka a half season or full season) where he has not been that good.

balke
06-23-2007, 01:13 PM
It's not so much the injury factor that scares me, it's the fact that Mark has had a couple of long stretches (aka a half season or full season) where he has not been that good.

Full Seasons? Never. He's had 2 bad half seasons 1 of which he ended with better #'s than Javier has EVER put up. His only bad season ever was last season.

ilsox7
06-23-2007, 02:13 PM
Full Seasons? Never. He's had 2 bad half seasons 1 of which he ended with better #'s than Javier has EVER put up. His only bad season ever was last season.

His 2003 wasn't that great. Maybe not BAD, but nowhere near being worthy of a 5 or 6 year deal. My point is, as it always has been, that Mark is a god fit on this team at the right price. But the right price does not include 5+ years or almost 20% of the payroll, IMO.

EDIT: Actually, Javy's best season was arguably better than Mark's best season.

balke
06-23-2007, 03:30 PM
His 2003 wasn't that great. Maybe not BAD, but nowhere near being worthy of a 5 or 6 year deal. My point is, as it always has been, that Mark is a god fit on this team at the right price. But the right price does not include 5+ years or almost 20% of the payroll, IMO.

EDIT: Actually, Javy's best season was arguably better than Mark's best season.

No you can't. 245 IP 16 wins and a lower ERA than Javy's ever had (in the NL), and a world series ring. What year has Javy done better than that?

And why do I care about one season anyways, when I can look at the full career of a pitcher with a 100 wins in 8 seasons, with a career 3.80 ERA in U.S. Cellular Field, in the toughest division in baseball.

Scottiehaswheels
06-23-2007, 03:35 PM
, in the toughest division in baseball.That part of your argument blows... It's only been tough for 2 years tops...

ilsox7
06-23-2007, 03:53 PM
No you can't. 245 IP 16 wins and a lower ERA than Javy's ever had (in the NL), and a world series ring. What year has Javy done better than that?

And why do I care about one season anyways, when I can look at the full career of a pitcher with a 100 wins in 8 seasons, with a career 3.80 ERA in U.S. Cellular Field, in the toughest division in baseball.

Javy's best year is very comparable to Mark's best year. Mark did some things better, Javy did others better. However, that was not the point. You said that one of Mark's worst years was better than ANY YEAR Javy has ever had. You were wrong. I was just pointing that out, not debating Mark's best versus Javy's best.

balke
06-23-2007, 03:55 PM
That part of your argument blows... It's only been tough for 2 years tops...

You're right.

balke
06-23-2007, 04:00 PM
Javy's best year is very comparable to Mark's best year. Mark did some things better, Javy did others better. However, that was not the point. You said that one of Mark's worst years was better than ANY YEAR Javy has ever had. You were wrong. I was just pointing that out, not debating Mark's best versus Javy's best.

Well 4.14 in the A.L. with 14 wins would be above average for Javy I can say at least.

ilsox7
06-23-2007, 04:18 PM
Well 4.14 in the A.L. with 14 wins would be above average for Javy I can say at least.

That's fine. But much different from what you previously said. That was my only point.

GAsoxfan
06-23-2007, 11:43 PM
On Yunel (http://mvn.com/milb-braves/2007/03/13/prospect-profile-yunel-escobar/) and his numbers this year (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Yunel%2520Escobar&pos=SS&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=488862).

Sure he's a SS who may hit for a little power, but this move doesn't strike me as ninja enough for KW. Another big piece needs to be thrown in here to deal Mark.

IMO, the most ninja thing that KW could do would be to figure out a way to get us a very good SS who can start in 2008 and a high-ceiling SP no more than 2 years away and then re-sign Mark in the offseason. Now that would obviously be a longshot, but that's what ninja do; they make moves no one sees coming.

How about Matt Harrison? Here's his stats from AA: http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Matt%2520Harrison&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=457448


I would do an Escobar/Harrison for MB deal.

Frontman
06-24-2007, 05:06 PM
Anyone else felt the kick in the gut when Pat Boyle's sports update was about Mark going to Boston?