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View Full Version : Anyone else dumbfounded why Jenks didn't start the 9th tonight?


bugsandcranks13
06-19-2007, 11:45 PM
Jenks is going to be our only all-star. You'd think Ozzie would want him to pitch with the game on the line whenever possible. Pitching at home he has to realize that there can't be a save situation once the game goes into the 9th tied. What the #!@$!# is he thinking?

Not to mention the Marlins had their big hitters (all right-handed) coming up against lefty Thornton!!! Ozzie's managing has been questionable at best in tight games this year.

chisoxfanatic
06-19-2007, 11:50 PM
The bigger question is why didn't Gooch get down that bunt in the 7th inning? This wouldn't've been an issue if that fell in place.

UserNameBlank
06-19-2007, 11:52 PM
With the way the team played in the 8th (failing to score w/ runners on 1B and 2B and noe one out) and the way they went down in the 9th, Jenks would only be out there to get work in. Besides, even if Bobby shut them down in the 9th and 10th, the Marlins probably still win in the 11th. The Sox are just that bad right now.

WhiteSox5187
06-19-2007, 11:56 PM
The bigger question is why didn't Gooch get down that bunt in the 7th inning? This wouldn't've been an issue if that fell in place.
I agree. If Iguchi gets that damned bunt down Konerko's flyball brings in a run and Jenks is out there in the ninth. Bad baseball all around.

bugsandcranks13
06-19-2007, 11:56 PM
I agree that Gooch is equally to blame for the loss. But bringing in Jenks to shut them down would have squarely put the pressure on the young Marlins pen for a couple innings. At least give the team a chance to pull out a nice walk-off win!

ilsox7
06-19-2007, 11:58 PM
With the way Thornton threw in the 8th, and the fact that he only threw 10 pitches, it was pretty much a no-brainer to send him out for the 9th in a tie game.

ThomesHomie
06-19-2007, 11:58 PM
Why is Thorton still here ?

bugsandcranks13
06-19-2007, 11:58 PM
Also, Thornton actually looked decent in the 8th. Take him out while he has some confidence. Now he's back to being as unconfident as ever.

Nellie_Fox
06-19-2007, 11:59 PM
Why is Thorton still here ?Who would you replace him with?

JB98
06-19-2007, 11:59 PM
I also would have used Jenks for the ninth.

However, horse**** starting pitching, horse**** bullpen, horse**** offense, and yes, horse**** managing. It's a team loss.

I refuse to put it all on Ozzie, although he shares in the responsibility for the continuing incompetence we see on the field.

chisoxjtrain
06-20-2007, 12:01 AM
Who would you replace him with?

touché

ThomesHomie
06-20-2007, 12:02 AM
Who would you replace him with?

Do we have one of those pitching machines ? Maybe Jose Canseco can come back for a few innings.

chisoxfanatic
06-20-2007, 12:04 AM
I agree that Gooch is equally to blame for the loss. But bringing in Jenks to shut them down would have squarely put the pressure on the young Marlins pen for a couple innings. At least give the team a chance to pull out a nice walk-off win!
A thing like that is the ONLY thing I can see pulling them out of this huge funk they're in.

bugsandcranks13
06-20-2007, 12:07 AM
All I know is that if Ozzie thinks this team can come back and make something of this season, he needs to win games like tonight and manage aggressively to make it happen. Leaving in Thornton to face the heart of their lineup was suicidal managing.

I'm out.

Nellie_Fox
06-20-2007, 12:08 AM
Do we have one of those pitching machines ? Maybe Jose Canseco can come back for a few innings.I knew you'd come back with one of these type of nonsense answers. All I was asking of people who want everyone cut, dumped, etc., is to come up with a realistic alternative. If the Sox listened to a lot of WSI posters, there would be a pitching staff of about four guys, total.

WhiteSox5187
06-20-2007, 12:10 AM
Also, Thornton actually looked decent in the 8th. Take him out while he has some confidence. Now he's back to being as unconfident as ever.
I wasn't opposed to leaving him in for the ninth. I figured "Well, if he gets in trouble, we'll bring in Jenks." Unfortunately he got in trouble with the first batter.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2007, 12:11 AM
It does say something to Nellie's point when you just don't have any viable alternatives sitting in the minor leagues.

Perhaps that's an even bigger issue then the bad bullpen's the past two seasons.

Lip

bugsandcranks13
06-20-2007, 12:13 AM
Real possibilities to replace Thornton in bullpen...

Gio Gonzalez or move Masset into rotation for a while and see how Danks does out of pen. A few more starts for Masset could also help to decide whether they can afford to deal a starter.

WhiteSox5187
06-20-2007, 12:17 AM
Real possibilities to replace Thornton in bullpen...

Gio Gonzalez or move Masset into rotation for a while and see how Danks does out of pen. A few more starts for Masset could also help to decide whether they can afford to deal a starter.
Meh, I'm hesistant to move Danks out of the rotation. He's done a fairly good job out of the fifth start position. I'd be curious to see what Gio could do at the major league level too. But a guy who would be really interesting (and would be really hit or miss too) would be a guy like Haeger. It is important to remember that he could be a guy like Wilbur Wood who also started his career in the bullpen.

ThomesHomie
06-20-2007, 12:28 AM
I knew you'd come back with one of these type of nonsense answers. All I was asking of people who want everyone cut, dumped, etc., is to come up with a realistic alternative. If the Sox listened to a lot of WSI posters, there would be a pitching staff of about four guys, total.

Who knows, but come on, he was lofting pitches in there, in the ninth. I'll answer back tomorrow when I'm awake.

rocky biddle
06-20-2007, 07:19 AM
If they would've brought Bobby in for the ninth and he blew the lead, people would be saying "Thornton was lights out in the 8th. Why'd Ozzie take him out?"

They just can't win right now (in more ways than one).

stl_sox_fan
06-20-2007, 07:50 AM
If they would've brought Bobby in for the ninth and he blew the lead, people would be saying "Thornton was lights out in the 8th. Why'd Ozzie take him out?"

They just can't win right now (in more ways than one).

Spot on. We here are masters of 20/20 Hindsight vision. They are in a funk of unimaginable funkness right now. Only a 5+ run lead in the 8th gives me the warm fuzzy feeling anymore.
Here's to June's 1st series win today!!!

twsoxfan5
06-20-2007, 08:22 AM
In order for this team to win they have to score at least 7 runs a game. The bullpen is brutal and the Sox do not win unless one of our pitchers goes at least 8 innings. My sister said the same thing right before Uggla's home run, "why is Thorton still in there" and my reply was "who else are we going to bring in." I don't envy Ozzie at all right now.

russ99
06-20-2007, 08:27 AM
As said earlier this season, the "book" says you don't bring in your closer in to start the 9th inning in a game where you're tied.

While a lot of this game is on the failure to bunt and make the small plays, like JD's horrible double-play ball in the 8th, it seems anytime a Sox starter leaves before the 7th inning, we're in big trouble.

If Ozzie is making any mistake with the bullpen, it's this: his policy of starting the next inning with the same reliever who pitched less than a full inning in the one before, is sapping any chance the bullpen has to get it back together. if Thornton started the 9th inning fresh, it would have likely been a different story.

I was encouraged by Aardsma's performance, but he's not the solution to our set-up problems.

Once again, for the hundredth time, this team needs a set-up guy from outside the Sox organization. Why won't Kenny go out and get one when it's so obvious!?!?

Is he so willing to blow the season just to make a stubborn point about salary escalation/overpaying on trades?

cws05champ
06-20-2007, 09:21 AM
This is not all hindsight 20/20...I looked at the hitters coming up in the ninth, 2-4 hitters all right handed...you bring in Jenks even in a tie game at home with a chance to win in the ninth and tenth!!!

TornLabrum
06-20-2007, 09:34 AM
And if Jenks comes in and pitches the ninth and is lights out, and then the Sox don't score in the tenth, THEN who comes in?

I can see all the comments in a thread similar to this about Ozzie "misusing his bullpen just like he has all year.

kevingrt
06-20-2007, 09:38 AM
With the way Thornton threw in the 8th, and the fact that he only threw 10 pitches, it was pretty much a no-brainer to send him out for the 9th in a tie game.

Actually he threw only 7 pitches. I cannot blame Ozzie at all for throwing him back out there in the 9th, no matter how many lefties or righties the Fish had coming up to the plate.

The fact the offense scored zero runs through 7 innings against the Fish bullpen is just HORRIBLE though.

SBSoxFan
06-20-2007, 09:40 AM
And if Jenks comes in and pitches the ninth and is lights out, and then the Sox don't score in the tenth, THEN who comes in?

I can see all the comments in a thread similar to this about Ozzie "misusing his bullpen just like he has all year.

I was thinking the same thing. Jenks could certainly have pitched two, maybe even 3 innings. Then you have Masset and Logan left.

Paulwny
06-20-2007, 09:46 AM
And if Jenks comes in and pitches the ninth and is lights out, and then the Sox don't score in the tenth, THEN who comes in?

I can see all the comments in a thread similar to this about Ozzie "misusing his bullpen just like he has all year.

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't

Jerko
06-20-2007, 09:48 AM
I left the game early (had my niece with me and wanted to start walking home before all the traffic started) so I missed the 8th inning. A few opinions:

I had no prob with Thornton starting the 9th. USUALLY when you bring your closer in a tie game, they lose it, and I've been saying all year if you find a guy that actually has a good inning, leave him in for a while. Also, Matt has been BETTER vs. righties so I had no problem with that.

Bunting. Maybe this team should just eschew the bunt for a while. I really don't like when 2 guys get on and we suddenly go into bunt mode. The 2 guys got on for a reason, they didn't bunt. I know in a perfect world the bunt works, and PKs fly brings in the lead run, but this season is FAR from being perfect. Let the 2 hitter swing the damn bat next time.

There was another inning when we had baserunners galore and didn't do squat either. IIRC JD hit into a DP that inning (I was in the fundamentals deck so I only had one eye on the game at that time). Should have buried these guys. Too bad Willis left the game, we were creaming him.

Jerko
06-20-2007, 09:58 AM
Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't

After like game 17 this year or whatever it was, 2 or 3 of our relief pitchers were "unavailalbe". So yes, IMO, Ozzie DOES misuse his pen horribly. You don't need to burn thru 4 or 5 pitchers in an inning or 2 just because of "matchups". I can see a lefty vs. Morneau every now and then but we treat every lefty like a .600 hitter in the late innings. In Ozzie's defense however, what can he do NOW????? Nobody is getting anybody out right now, and if they do, it's only for one inning (if we're even that lucky) and then the floodgates open anyway. I'm sure his stomach cringes every time he pops out of the dugout these days, but he's kinda stuck now. Just have to ride it out I guess or start looking for new pitchers. :dunno:

roadrunner
06-20-2007, 10:14 AM
Spot on. We here are masters of 20/20 Hindsight vision.

I think that many posters here are simply masters of saying "hindsight is 20/20" - as if merely stating that proves some sort of point. It doesn't. Decisions are always judged based on there eventual success or failure. And yes, that judgment comes from "20/20 hindsight" but that doesn't mean that the initial decision cannot be evaluated.

It's the manager's and GM's job to make correct decisions. Just because they will be judged eventually (as all decisions are) doesn't mean that they cannot be wrong decisions at the time they were made.

Find another ****ing cliche to use.

PaulDrake
06-20-2007, 10:20 AM
It's the manager's and GM's job to make correct decisions. Just because they will be judged eventually (as all decisions are) doesn't mean that they cannot be wrong decisions at the time they were made.

Find another ****ing cliche to use. Thank you.

Jerko
06-20-2007, 10:31 AM
Thank you.

I agree. It's been 3 months now (I won't use 2006 even though all these guys were here then too.....). I don't think saying "we can't bunt" is hindsight. It's a fact. IIRC didn't Iguchi mess up a bunt like the 2nd game of the year? Roberto Hernandez came into the game, AJ greets him with a smash double, Gooch ****s up the bunt. GAME TWO!!!!!!! We don't know by now who can and can't bunt? Gooch is GREAT at moving the runners over without bunting, don't we know that? That's not hindsight.

I do agree that arguing over bullpen moves can be considered hindsight, and I have to give Ozzie a pass on this because they ALL suck right now. What if Jenks DID start the 9th and the Sox still lost? What if he went 3 innings becasue Logan and Massett suck and got hurt? I would not want to be Oz right now.

HotelWhiteSox
06-20-2007, 11:54 AM
Tie game, 9th inning at home, your closer? Bizarre!

Meanwhile the heart of Fla's order are righty's that have great numbers against lefties (what a hell of a time to against righty/lefty micromanagement huh? I wonder if we are throwing games)


And Ozzie will continue with his 'don't blame me, blame the players' quotes.

soxrme
06-20-2007, 11:56 AM
And if Jenks comes in and pitches the ninth and is lights out, and then the Sox don't score in the tenth, THEN who comes in?

I can see all the comments in a thread similar to this about Ozzie "misusing his bullpen just like he has all year.
He can't pitch two innings because he has been so overworked?? Give me a break:angry:

oeo
06-20-2007, 12:01 PM
Also, Thornton actually looked decent in the 8th. Take him out while he has some confidence. Now he's back to being as unconfident as ever.

Why?

I don't understand this thinking. Thornton's 8th inning was absolutely perfect...Ozzie is supposed to know he's going to go out there and get lit up? I know it confused the hell out of me. He was lights out in the 8th and then gets crushed in the 9th.

oeo
06-20-2007, 12:05 PM
Tie game, 9th inning at home, your closer? Bizarre!

Meanwhile the heart of Fla's order are righty's that have great numbers against lefties (what a hell of a time to against righty/lefty micromanagement huh? I wonder if we are throwing games)


And Ozzie will continue with his 'don't blame me, blame the players' quotes.

Wow...just another example of, "Ozzie overuses pen, but when he doesn't I'm going to complain about that too because I can."

Yes, the Marlins are good against LHSP...but did you see the 8th inning? He shut them down, 1-2-3. There was no need to take him out then. I guarantee if he was taken out and Masset did the same thing, you would have been whining and complaining that Ozzie overused the pen because Thornton just worked a quick 1-2-3 8th. Don't tell me you wouldn't, because you guys are doing it all the time.

Tragg
06-20-2007, 12:28 PM
I would answer "any other hitter on the roster and most anyone in Charlotte" to who would you use at DH and top pinch hitter if not Cintron.

AJ Hellraiser
06-20-2007, 02:06 PM
I was dumbfounded at first, but not anymore... I just feel bad for Ozzie with this bullpen.... you never know who is going to explode on ya...

I mean Thornton blows through FLA in the 8th on 10 pitches, and we don't push anything across so you leave him in and see if you can get 1 more inning because the game could go 15 innings

On the other hand, what if he did bring in Jenks there and we don't score in the bottom half... then we are left with Boone Logan, Masset and MacDougal... none of which sound intriguing and only one can really go more than 1 inning

It's pointless to second guess with this team/bullpen right now... none of us could actually manage any better... all we can do is comment and second guess after the fact

HotelWhiteSox
06-20-2007, 03:15 PM
Wow...just another example of, "Ozzie overuses pen, but when he doesn't I'm going to complain about that too because I can."

Yes, the Marlins are good against LHSP...but did you see the 8th inning? He shut them down, 1-2-3. There was no need to take him out then. I guarantee if he was taken out and Masset did the same thing, you would have been whining and complaining that Ozzie overused the pen because Thornton just worked a quick 1-2-3 8th. Don't tell me you wouldn't, because you guys are doing it all the time.

No, actually I was asking for Jenks before the inning even started, but thanks for generalizing me with 'you guys'. It's not some standarized situation everytime, so I don't see why even compare this situation with past games. Thornton was great against their bottom of the order, including an NL DH and one guy who just came from the minors, color me amazed. Tie game, home, 9th, their best hitters who kill left handers, time to go to your closer, no brainer

miker
06-20-2007, 03:27 PM
The bigger question is why didn't Gooch get down that bunt in the 7th inning? This wouldn't've been an issue if that fell in place.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that! Like most disasters, this season is a series of many small events that has resulted in a cataclysmic failure. However, being simple-minded, many want to blame it on only on injuries or Greg Walker or the bullpen or the media, etc., etc.

pdimas
06-20-2007, 03:31 PM
There hopefully Bobbys performance today will clear up any dumbfounded feelings you may have had...

Hes a closer for crying out loud. Not the be all end all of the BP. Granted it sucks beyond words but every pitcher in there has there assigned roles.

I cant stand the post game calls with ppl calling for bobby to come in the 7th when we are down by a run or like last night when we were tied!! Have ppl lost their minds? CLOSER

TornLabrum
06-20-2007, 03:32 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Jenks could certainly have pitched two, maybe even 3 innings. Then you have Masset and Logan left.

Something Ozzie revealed at the luncheon on June 7 that I didn't know. He doesn't use Jenks for two innings because he's had a pin in his arm since he was a kid.