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View Full Version : You Make The Call: Fire Sale, Go For It, or Stay As Is?


WhiteSoxFan84
06-17-2007, 10:10 PM
Alright WSIoids, if you were in charge of making the decision, would you...

a) Fire Sale - trade Dye, Buehrle, Iguchi, etc., all the free agents and older guys that you don't think will be back next season for prospects and build for 2008 and beyond.

b) Go For It - trade for available talent to improve the team for this season and hope for an unreal 2nd half of the season and not care about what the team would look like next season.

c) Stay As Is - don't make any drastic changes and just hang on to this team and hope they turn it around in the 2nd half.

Scottiehaswheels
06-17-2007, 10:19 PM
Still to early... Post this in mid-July

Palpidious
06-17-2007, 10:54 PM
april was too early. this team is done. anyone who doesn't admit that now just can't handle the truth

South Side Irish
06-17-2007, 11:00 PM
While I'm a big optimist, I think this season is a loss in terms of championships. Instead, time to let some kids like Owens, BA, Fields, Sweeny, etc play.

I voted for the Fire Sale, but wouldn't trade everyone. Personally, I keep Gooch and try to resign Mark. You've got to have a veteran arm around, and if you can't then you still have Garland and Jose (when healthy). I would probably change my mind once a great offer comes, especially from a desperate NL team needing pitching (hello, Cards, Mets, Dodgers, Mets, Dbacks and Braves!). Trade Dye, maybe even AJ, let Crede go, find a taker for Javy, adios Scotty and Darin!

RallyBowl
06-17-2007, 11:01 PM
13 people voted fire sale, and then didn't even post why. Losers.

I say go for it. It's bad enough to be a bunch of bad baseball players, I don't want to be a bunch of quitters too. The talent is there, bottom line. Add what you can, and bust your ass and hope for a little bit of luck. No, a lot of luck. And an undefeated September. You're wrong if you think it couldn't happen.

Scottiehaswheels
06-17-2007, 11:12 PM
Look I voted Stay as Is for a couple reasons... Dumping guys now would lower the value we could possibly get for them... The other reason is that as PUTRID as we've been playing, none of the teams ahead of us have really taken advantage and gone on a run. Who's to say they never do and maybe we do? But we have to decide by mid July so we have time to work out deals if we're selling or see where we stand if perhaps we should be able to gain 5-6 games between now and then.... If we eventually go firesale route: we trade Toby(Cubs), Mark(Cards, Braves), Jose(?), Jim (Angels), Jermaine(D'backs), and maybe a couple others if we can get good value for them.

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-17-2007, 11:14 PM
I voted fire sale, but i still wouldn't trade Buehrle (try to resign him). Dye has to go. There was no way that he would have been resigned after this year. Iguchi could be traded, but I doubt he has any value.

WhiteSoxFan84
06-17-2007, 11:26 PM
I voted Fire Sale because the Indians, Tigers, and Twins all look very good and all aren't even 100% healthy yet. We are missing a few key guys and our offense can only improve, but that bullpen has way too many question marks and we can't honestly believe our starters will remain this solid the rest of the season. They will have their slump too and unfortunately they'll probably struggle when the offense finally picks it up.

I say deal Buehrle for preferably a power hitting outfielder and send Dye to a contender for a couple of top relief prospects or another starting prospect.

I want Gooch back, I have no idea why we'd let him go.
As much as I love Joe Crede, I think he pissed the Sox staff and some fans off by not having the surgery in the offseason. And the way Josh Fields has played as of late, we've already replaced him.

WhiteSoxFan84
06-17-2007, 11:32 PM
I tried editing my previous post but it won't let me, I wanted to add..

trade Buehrle to the Cardinals for Chris Duncan and pitching prospects.

oeo
06-17-2007, 11:49 PM
I voted Fire Sale because the Indians, Tigers, and Twins all look very good and all aren't even 100% healthy yet. We are missing a few key guys and our offense can only improve, but that bullpen has way too many question marks and we can't honestly believe our starters will remain this solid the rest of the season. They will have their slump too and unfortunately they'll probably struggle when the offense finally picks it up.

This is false. The Twins have not played well at all this year, and the Tigers are being carried by their offense. There's no way any team can continue to hit .290+ as a team; they will falter.

I'm not saying we're going to the postseason (I don't believe that at all), but some of you act like this is an impossible act. I said it before the season, I'll say it again: this division is overrated.

WhiteSoxFan84
06-18-2007, 12:01 AM
This is false. The Twins have not played well at all this year, and the Tigers are being carried by their offense. There's no way any team can continue to hit .290+ as a team; they will falter.

I'm not saying we're going to the postseason (I don't believe that at all), but some of you act like this is an impossible act. I said it before the season, I'll say it again: this division is overrated.

You can say it all season long, but it'll still remain incorrect.
As for the Twins, they're playing better than what A LOT of people were expecting from them. Without Liriano and with that bad offense, everyone wrote them off. They're still over .500 and within 6 games of 1st place.

StillMissOzzie
06-18-2007, 12:15 AM
I voted Fire Sale, but that doesn't mean I want or expect it tomorrow. Wait until around the AllStar game, when the contenders start to pull away from the pack. Then the Sox will know who reaaly wants & needs a bat like JD's or an arm like Buehrle's.
I have already posted a few times that the Sox should make their last, best, and final offer to Buehrle, and if they know by the All Star game that they have no chance of retaining him, wave bye-bye and ship him off to the highest bidder. I am also on record as thinking that Buehrle's option to let the Sox match his best offer is worthless...they won't.
Pods won't be back, Crede looks iffy, and Iguchi? I read somewhere that he wants to play for a Left Coast team, so he may have already decided he won't negotiate with the Sox, or will use them to leverage a better deal.

SMO
:gulp:

QCIASOXFAN
06-18-2007, 12:16 AM
You can say it all season long, but it'll still remain incorrect.
As for the Twins, they're playing better than what A LOT of people were expecting from them. Without Liriano and with that bad offense, everyone wrote them off. They're still over .500 and within 6 games of 1st place.
The Twins also have 123 more hits than us as well as 57 more runs scored as a team.:(: Just went ESPN and looked at some stats and I feel sick to my stomach.:(: We only have 2 triples as a team this year so far. 2 in like 63 games.:angry: I vote fire sale this **** has to change.

California Sox
06-18-2007, 12:22 AM
The acquisition of Richar tells me KW thinks Iguchi is gone. Dye is gone. Pods, probably gone. Uribe? $5 mil is a lot for a guy with a .260 OBP. Crede is a real question mark. We may need new starters at all three OF spots and 3/4 of the infield. We need to get some more players in here. I bet KW is active in FA, but it would be nice to get a few options (especially at ss). A fire sale would be an excellent way to speed the rebuilding process along -- provided we get the right players.

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2007, 12:25 AM
I think that we oughta try like hell to re-sign Buerhle and move Dye and Jose...with taht trade we may be able to trade Iguchi too if it looks like he won't re-sign. Those are the only ideas I have. I'm ready to wave the white flag for 2007. We just lost two out of three to the Pirates. I'm pretty sure a half way descent Double A team could give us a scare. But I think there are pieces in here for contention next year. I think this starting rotation is pretty good so you'd like to keep as much as that as possible (meaing Buerhle, Garland and Danks).

oeo
06-18-2007, 12:28 AM
You can say it all season long, but it'll still remain incorrect.
As for the Twins, they're playing better than what A LOT of people were expecting from them. Without Liriano and with that bad offense, everyone wrote them off. They're still over .500 and within 6 games of 1st place.

I don't remember people writing them off. :dunno: The Twins had one of the better offenses in baseball last year. They had the batting title and the MVP in the same lineup...where are you pulling this 'bad offense' from?

And we'll see if I'm incorrect about the division being overrated at the end of the year, when Detroit fizzles and Minnesota makes another run at the crown. The Yankees will win the Wild Card.

RockJock07
06-18-2007, 02:12 AM
Fire sale, I think it's time to get rid of the dead weight that makes this club awful like Uribe and Contreras. Trade Dye.

As far as the off-season, there are a couple of SS's worth looking at. Carlos Guillen and Eckstein. Guillen will probably sign before free agency begins but Eckstein would be ok in my eyes.

The biggest move that needs to be made is pick up Ichiro. This guy is flat out dominate. .332 career average, 6-time gold glove, is on pace for another 240+ hit season. It's time for Kenny to break the bank for this guy.

Here is my ideal line-up.

Ichiro RF
Erstad CF
Konerko 1B
Thome DH
Fields 3b
AJ C
Gooch 2B
Sweeney LF
Eckstien/Andy Gonzalez SS

Rotation:
MB
Garland
Danks
Javy (maybe, depends on his 2nd half of 07)
Gio

Bullpen help, 2-3 guys. The payroll is probably going to increase and that's why I have Andy at SS.

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2007, 02:44 AM
Fire sale, I think it's time to get rid of the dead weight that makes this club awful like Uribe and Contreras. Trade Dye.

As far as the off-season, there are a couple of SS's worth looking at. Carlos Guillen and Eckstein. Guillen will probably sign before free agency begins but Eckstein would be ok in my eyes.

The biggest move that needs to be made is pick up Ichiro. This guy is flat out dominate. .332 career average, 6-time gold glove, is on pace for another 240+ hit season. It's time for Kenny to break the bank for this guy.

Here is my ideal line-up.

Ichiro RF
Erstad CF
Konerko 1B
Thome DH
Fields 3b
AJ C
Gooch 2B
Sweeney LF
Eckstien/Andy Gonzalez SS

Rotation:
MB
Garland
Danks
Javy (maybe, depends on his 2nd half of 07)
Gio

Bullpen help, 2-3 guys. The payroll is probably going to increase and that's why I have Andy at SS.
No.

IlliniSox4Life
06-18-2007, 02:50 AM
Get rid of Dye, keep Mark and Gooch if you can. Sign either Ichiro or Arod (if he opts out) at the end of the season.

edit: Get Ichiro if at all possible (over Arod). We NEED a leadoff hitter. Ichiro and Gooch would make for some cool marketing campaigns too.

FedEx227
06-18-2007, 02:53 AM
The Twins also have 123 more hits than us as well as 57 more runs scored as a team.:(: Just went ESPN and looked at some stats and I feel sick to my stomach.:(: We only have 2 triples as a team this year so far. 2 in like 63 games.:angry: I vote fire sale this **** has to change.

While Curtis Granderson himself has 13 triples himself.

Stomach that one.

crazyozzie02
06-18-2007, 02:58 AM
Look I voted Stay as Is for a couple reasons... Dumping guys now would lower the value we could possibly get for them... The other reason is that as PUTRID as we've been playing, none of the teams ahead of us have really taken advantage and gone on a run. Who's to say they never do and maybe we do? But we have to decide by mid July so we have time to work out deals if we're selling or see where we stand if perhaps we should be able to gain 5-6 games between now and then.... If we eventually go firesale route: we trade Toby(Cubs), Mark(Cards, Braves), Jose(?), Jim (Angels), Jermaine(D'backs), and maybe a couple others if we can get good value for them.

I dont know what to do yet with this team, but if we are going to sell them off i dont think that trading Thome is such a good idea. He is still producing as good as anyone and then who would be our DH. Some people would argue Paulie but then who would play 1st? I think that to be able to bulid a team around Paulie and Jim is a hell of an oppurtunity. They both are vets that contribute to the team in more ways than one. Yes to shipping off most of these guys listed, but i just dont see why shipping off Jim has become popular amongst some people (not taking a shot at anyone).

Scottiehaswheels
06-18-2007, 03:25 AM
Yes to shipping off most of these guys listed, but i just dont see why shipping off Jim has become popular amongst some people (not taking a shot at anyone).For me the reason is two fold...

If we have a firesale this team will not compete this year and possibly not next. Therefore, what is the point of keeping Thome around for another full season and trying to potentially trade him at the deadline next year with only a couple more months left on his contract? If we were to trade him this year, we get a much better return, prospect/MLB player, wise. (I'm thinking 2 good/great relievers/MLB ready AAA middle infielder prospect.)

Secondly, when star players/good people start getting to Thome's age, if you're looking to unload players, I think it's only fair ship them to teams that have a chance to get the guy a World Series ring. That was an insignificant part of the reason he was brought here originally, but a reason none the less. With the pitching/talent depth of the Angels they make the most sense in bringing us a great return while still giving Jim a shot at the post season and a chance for the ring he deserves.

If we don't trade him to the Angels, then I'm not sure trading him this season is worth it honestly. Yankee's aren't a lock for the post season even though they could use him, Red Sox I don't believe need him, don't want to trade him within the Central either because that could haunt us next year. NL is pretty much out of the question at this point and time....

Scottiehaswheels
06-18-2007, 03:28 AM
He is still producing as good as anyone and then who would be our DH. Some people would argue Paulie but then who would play 1st? Also, this will make some people happy, but if we do trade Thome, make BA the DH. It's **** or get off the pot time for him.

Frontman
06-18-2007, 04:03 AM
I think that we oughta try like hell to re-sign Buerhle and move Dye and Jose...with taht trade we may be able to trade Iguchi too if it looks like he won't re-sign. Those are the only ideas I have. I'm ready to wave the white flag for 2007. We just lost two out of three to the Pirates. I'm pretty sure a half way descent Double A team could give us a scare. But I think there are pieces in here for contention next year. I think this starting rotation is pretty good so you'd like to keep as much as that as possible (meaing Buerhle, Garland and Danks).

What he said. Keep the best, move the rest.

Grzegorz
06-18-2007, 05:55 AM
I voted Fire Sale, but I also believe that the CWS should keep Iguchi and try to resign Mark.

i am not so sure about launching Erstad, especially if he contributes (runs well, hits, plays defense) when he returns.

As for Pods, Dye, Uribe and Contreras I'd be looking to sell.

As for Crede, you have. If he comes back and plays well you'll have a choice. If he continues to play poorly then the choice is made for you.

The only reason I sign Iguchi is because retooling the middle infield would be damned near impossible. Short term I'd be looking for an upgrade at second base too.

It is coming to point where you have to play Sweeney, Anderson, Fields, etc... The CWS need to know what is in the cupboard. It is the only way to accurately assess what you need to by on the market.

hose
06-18-2007, 06:11 AM
It's only June 18th---stay as is.

Selling off now will not bring back the highest return. Kenny will have to hold off until more teams get desperate for pitching and then he can get the farm for Burles.

I think Kenny will also trade Dye and Gooch but I got a feeling Contreras will be moved also.

Malgar 12
06-18-2007, 06:12 AM
Also, this will make some people happy, but if we do trade Thome, make BA the DH. It's **** or get off the pot time for him.

It would be crazy to bring up Anderson and not utilize his one known strength, DEFENSE. He may turn into a decent hitter, but is he already is a fine outfielder.

Scottiehaswheels
06-18-2007, 06:18 AM
It would be crazy to bring up Anderson and not utilize his one known strength, DEFENSE. He may turn into a decent hitter, but is he already is a fine outfielder.Exactly, which is why if Thome is shipped out you put BA in as a DH... We know he is great defensively, but his bat sucks... If he was to devote all his energies to hitting, it may or may not stick but at least we'd know what we have one way or the other. There could be no more questions from the front office/fans that we should keep him, if all he is supposed to focus on is hitting and he can't even do that. If he does produce, then great, we should keep him around, but if he can't, we get rid of him for the potential of someone else that might be able to help the big club...

sox1970
06-18-2007, 06:59 AM
I don't like the term "fire sale" when it comes to the 2007 White Sox. To me, fire sale applied more to the 1997 team. Yes, they had a chance to win that year, but they felt the Indians were too good to beat in the long run.

They definitely don't have the horses this year, and considering the contract status of Dye, Buehrle, and Iguchi, they have to be open to trade anyone if the trade makes sense.

nsolo
06-18-2007, 07:38 AM
I would like Buerhle to stay. As we know, quality pitching is the hardest of all to replace, and trading him, even if you get a hitting superstar in return, would go against the baseball rule of "pitching and defense wins championships." I don't think we'll win a championship this year, but it would be nice to have him aboard next year.

As for our offense, I believe other changes could be made. #1 on my list is to deal Thome. Love the guy, but WAY too one dimensional. Packaging him with J.D., and Javy might get fetch some speed and defense guys who are strong in fundamentals. Then maybe we can truly play some Ozzie ball rather than waiting for the three run homerun.

geraldfritz
06-18-2007, 09:51 AM
I voted for a fire sale. I feel that it is going to be a tough road ahead for the rest of the season, and we might as well let the younger guys play. Weve been waiting for the right time to give sweeney, fields, and others to develop. We have given them time, now lets see what these kids can do. Me personally, I would love to see Dye go, I feel he has been "dogging it" on the field all season. I think that trading some of these guys away would bring in some younger guys who would allow us to be competitive for the next ten years, instead of staying put, and just being competitive for the next two.

voodoochile
06-18-2007, 10:37 AM
Still to early... Post this in mid-July

I agree, there is no rush. If there is no rebound between now and the AS break there is plenty of time to bust up the team. I don't mind exploring trade options and if something is too good to pass up, take it. I may be an eternal optimist, but I'm not completely crazy...

whitesoxwilkes
06-18-2007, 10:41 AM
Fire sale.

Break it down, get guys like Fields and Sweeney in there and see if they're worth their salt. If not, look to the FA market in the offseason for "value grinders" once again. Gut the bullpen except for Jenks, Sisco and Thornton.

voodoochile
06-18-2007, 10:44 AM
Exactly, which is why if Thome is shipped out you put BA in as a DH... We know he is great defensively, but his bat sucks... If he was to devote all his energies to hitting, it may or may not stick but at least we'd know what we have one way or the other. There could be no more questions from the front office/fans that we should keep him, if all he is supposed to focus on is hitting and he can't even do that. If he does produce, then great, we should keep him around, but if he can't, we get rid of him for the potential of someone else that might be able to help the big club...

Using BA as a DH would be a bad idea. If he goes into a slump, he'd be sitting on the bench dwelling instead of getting the chance to make a positive impact with his defense. If you bring him up and play him, you put him in CF/RF and give him a chance to prove he belongs.

hawkjt
06-18-2007, 10:48 AM
I agree, there is no rush. If there is no rebound between now and the AS break there is plenty of time to bust up the team. I don't mind exploring trade options and if something is too good to pass up, take it. I may be an eternal optimist, but I'm not completely crazy...


yes, in a month we should know definitely whether there is any hope for this group; it also lets some of the trade bait like JD,javvy,jose, ect put some decent numbers up to increase their trade value.

teams like the mets, cards,brewers,phillies,braves,yanks,ect should be even more desperate at that point making trading attractive to kenny.

on the other hand , if the sox have a good month, maybe in a month kenny is looking to supplement.. all those games in aug and sept vs division rivals can be opportunities to gain ground also.

balke
06-18-2007, 10:55 AM
You definitely don't sell low on your talent. The Sox have to pull things together, and start winning. I think that can happen when we get the minor leaguers out of here and bring back Pods and Erstad to the top of the order.

When there is someone on base for Thome, Konerko, and Dye its going to be easier for them to get hits, and more meaningful when they do. I look for a good turn around soon and hope that Kenny can make some great moves for this team in July.

sox1970
06-18-2007, 10:59 AM
You definitely don't sell low on your talent. The Sox have to pull things together, and start winning. I think that can happen when we get the minor leaguers out of here and bring back Pods and Erstad to the top of the order.

When there is someone on base for Thome, Konerko, and Dye its going to be easier for them to get hits, and more meaningful when they do. I look for a good turn around soon and hope that Kenny can make some great moves for this team in July.

I'm reading some posts, and I want to make sure I'm reading everyone right...are you saying make moves to make a run at the playoffs this year, or just set up things for 2008? If you're saying try to make moves to make the playoffs this year, then I'd have to question your sanity level. This team is done. Time to make more moves for the future.

balke
06-18-2007, 11:08 AM
I'm reading some posts, and I want to make sure I'm reading everyone right...are you saying make moves to make a run at the playoffs this year, or just set up things for 2008? If you're saying try to make moves to make the playoffs this year, then I'd have to question your sanity level. This team is done. Time to make more moves for the future.

No, the Sox are done that's obvious. The Sox are still a professional organization that people in Chicago are paying to go see though. They can't lay down, or put out the B squad just to give them experience at the MLB level. The majority of minor leaguers won't be learning anymore up here than they will in Charlotte at this point.

The Sox have a +100 million dollar team that is looking like a 25 million dollar team. They need to show that these veterans can still play baseball, Jermaine Dye is worth trading for, and that they don't have a serious issue at 1B to go along with all the other offensive holes.

It'd be nice if the Sox can still win for a while to boost the trade value of players, to boost ticket sales, to boost morale for 2008, and to put some worries going into 2008 to rest. They cannot walk into the offseason looking like this. Kenny would have too many holes to fill. Sox need to figure out who is going to play baseball next season.

Foultips
06-18-2007, 11:16 AM
Everybody take a deep breath

One year ago today the Twins were 11 games behind

There is still hope

However the Twins were also at .500

sox1970
06-18-2007, 11:20 AM
Everybody take a deep breath

One year ago today the Twins were 11 games behind

There is still hope

However the Twins were also at .500

No, you're wrong--the Sox are done, and have been done for quite some time. As soon as the Sox have an MVP, batting champ, and Cy Young winner, then I'll change my mind.

Foultips
06-18-2007, 11:23 AM
No, you're wrong--the Sox are done, and have been done for quite some time. As soon as the Sox have an MVP, batting champ, and Cy Young winner, then I'll change my mind.


clears throat and sings

Dont stop believin
Hold on to the feelin
:D:

sox1970
06-18-2007, 11:24 AM
clears throat and sings

Dont stop believin
Hold on to the feelin
:D:

Sox in 2011.

thomas35forever
06-18-2007, 11:28 AM
Sox in 2011.
http://www.frogstylebiscuit.com/images/content/06-may/charlie.gif
"Shun the non-believer!"

roylestillman
06-18-2007, 11:29 AM
You almost have to stay as is for now. I would have gone for fire sale, but the value of Dye, Iguchi or any of the pen is so low they wouldn't get a thing for them. The only players of value are Buehrle and Jenks and I just can't see 2008 without those two. Sit tight until just before the deadline and hope sombody gets their BA over .260.

Madvora
06-18-2007, 11:33 AM
Do any Sox players have any kind of no trade clause?

I'm all for trading anyone but Buehrle (actually I mean, try to get him back for next year.)

sox1970
06-18-2007, 11:37 AM
Do any Sox players have any kind of no trade clause?

I'm all for trading anyone but Buehrle (actually I mean, try to get him back for next year.)

Contreras has a no-trade this year. Vazquez has a partial.

The Immigrant
06-18-2007, 11:40 AM
Do any Sox players have any kind of no trade clause?

Thome's no-trade clause survives from his deal with the Phillies. He might waive it for a move to a contender, however.

Konerko has a limited NTC that requires his consent to a trade to any of six unidentified teams.

Vazquez cannot be dealt to any of the nine West Coast teams, including AZ and Colorado.

I also believe that Contreras received a limited NTC that expires at the end of this year, but I'm not certain.

Goose
06-18-2007, 11:48 AM
You have to look for the Sale right now. What is point in keeping the team as is when they have failed so miserably the second half of last year and all of this year. KW needs to sit down and determine what kind of people he needs and then try to go and get them. One thing I would NOT do, however, is trade MB. Which is the realy difficult part of this and I feel for KW. MB has got the most value at this point. He is the one that can get the most prospects/players here to fill the holes we have, BUT he is the anchor to the pitching staff. It is a tough spot to be in...glad I dont have to make the decision.

Everyone else? Let the bidding start. Nobody is safe, but if it were up to me, Mark, Jon and Danks are the only untouchables.

Railsplitter
06-18-2007, 11:51 AM
Go for it. As I've said before, this team can still make .500, so make what improvements you can. We've seen teams start out great guns but fold after the All-Star break, and we've seen the reversde happen. Still the Sox need to hit better with guys on base and to get that third out to squelch those 2 out rallies that opponents have been killing them with.

kittle42
06-18-2007, 12:01 PM
Go for it.

This idea will not only bring us misery for this year, but for several to come without the flexibility of being able to reload for the next few seasons right now.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2007, 12:02 PM
It's not as simple as 'go for it,' or 'keep it the way it is.'

Some guys because of the contract situation are simply untradable, some guys frankly, no one would want, some guys may be simply having a bad year but it's to early to 'give up' on them.

The free agents to be could be worth if nothing else, compensatory draft picks.

It's not that 'cut and dried.'

I think some players will be moved but it won't be an all out wholesale fire sale.

If the Sox were to do that, especially if all they got back were 'future type prospects,' you'll be back to drawing 15,000 per game in 2008.

Plus that goes completely against everything Williams and Ozzie have said about the 'philosophical goals' of this organization under their stweardship.

In 2008 if you've got say seven or eight 'kids' on a 25 man roster, the odds are you probably aren't going to content for anything in the toughest division in baseball

Lip

35th&Shields
06-18-2007, 12:33 PM
I voted for Fire Sale. It's June 17th and we are 10.5 games out of 1st and 5 games out of 3rd. I hate to say it, but this team has been on a downhill slide since winning the World Series. Last year was such an unbelievable dissapointment as it now looks like that was the closing of this team's window of opportunity to compete for championships.

areilly
06-18-2007, 01:02 PM
In my view, there's not much difference between losing 85 games and losing 95 games. COMMENCE REBUILDING.

itsnotrequired
06-18-2007, 01:04 PM
In my view, there's not much difference between losing 85 games and losing 95 games. COMMENCE REBUILDING.

There is a huge difference in finishing 4 games under .500 as compared to 14 games under .500.

RockJock07
06-18-2007, 01:53 PM
No.

then your 2008 SS is...........

crazyozzie02
06-18-2007, 02:03 PM
I voted for Fire Sale. It's June 17th and we are 10.5 games out of 1st and 5 games out of 3rd. I hate to say it, but this team has been on a downhill slide since winning the World Series. Last year was such an unbelievable dissapointment as it now looks like that was the closing of this team's window of opportunity to compete for championships.

no that is incorrect. They have been on a downhill slide since the All Star break last year. Before the break they were one of the best teams in baseball and a strong favorite to repeat.

champagne030
06-18-2007, 02:17 PM
There is a huge difference in finishing 4 games under .500 as compared to 14 games under .500.

Really? Finishing 74-88 doesn't seem like a "huge" step down from 79-83. Maybe that just me though. :dunno:

itsnotrequired
06-18-2007, 02:24 PM
Really? Finishing 74-88 doesn't seem like a "huge" step down from 79-83. Maybe that just me though. :dunno:


See the original post. 85 losses were compared to 95 losses. I see the difference in 77-85 vs. 67-95.

areilly
06-18-2007, 03:49 PM
See the original post. 85 losses were compared to 95 losses. I see the difference in 77-85 vs. 67-95.

They're both terrible seasons. 67-95 might even provide a few more laughs.

Okay, that last part is just me clutching at straws. Hard to believe we were talking dynasty just one short year ago.

itsnotrequired
06-18-2007, 03:53 PM
They're both terrible seasons. 67-95 might even provide a few more laughs.

Okay, that last part is just me clutching at straws. Hard to believe we were talking dynasty just one short year ago.

67-95 would be the worst season in over 30 years. The Sox went 64-97 in 1976 when they finished dead last in the AL.

Even that team had a better batting average than this year's squad...

Frankfan4life
06-18-2007, 04:01 PM
I say Stay as Is. Let's see what happens when Pods gets back and the rest of the team is healthy. No matter what: KEEP BUEHRLE!!!!

MDF3530
06-18-2007, 04:19 PM
Fire sale. No one is untouchable.

jdm2662
06-18-2007, 04:29 PM
67-95 would be the worst season in over 30 years. The Sox went 64-97 in 1976 when they finished dead last in the AL.

Even that team had a better batting average than this year's squad...

The 2003 Tigers had a higher batting average than the Sox have right now. :o:

areilly
06-18-2007, 04:39 PM
67-95 would be the worst season in over 30 years. The Sox went 64-97 in 1976 when they finished dead last in the AL.

Even that team had a better batting average than this year's squad...

I was thinking about Sox teams past the other day, and I think the downer about this year's squad is that they're not even a funny kind of bad. I think back to 2002, 1998 and so on, and seem to remember a lot of games that were 10-9, 16-12, etc. They'd lose, but you could at least chuckle at how they did it. This year it's all blown leads and stranded runners. NOT COOL.

itsnotrequired
06-18-2007, 05:19 PM
I was thinking about Sox teams past the other day, and I think the downer about this year's squad is that they're not even a funny kind of bad. I think back to 2002, 1998 and so on, and seem to remember a lot of games that were 10-9, 16-12, etc. They'd lose, but you could at least chuckle at how they did it. This year it's all blown leads and stranded runners. NOT COOL.

A payroll over $100 million doesn't make it a laugher either.

UserNameBlank
06-18-2007, 05:30 PM
113-47 in favor of a firesale right now. That's almost like the total runs allowed out of our bullpen vs. the total runs scored from the bottom of the lineup. Not sure if that should be teal or not because I haven't checked the numbers, but they have to be pretty bad.

Blow this thing up. I want the Sox to re-sign Mark but if the Sox aren't going to seriously negotiate with Mark's agent right now, trade him and least hopefully we can get something back. There's no way we should take draft picks over top prospects who are a year or two away, if not ready now.

UserNameBlank
06-18-2007, 05:39 PM
13 people voted fire sale, and then didn't even post why. Losers.

I say go for it. It's bad enough to be a bunch of bad baseball players, I don't want to be a bunch of quitters too. The talent is there, bottom line. Add what you can, and bust your ass and hope for a little bit of luck. No, a lot of luck. And an undefeated September. You're wrong if you think it couldn't happen.
That's a pretty stupid remark. What must be explained? The team is terrible and the majority of our core is up for FA after '08, with several up for FA after this year. Our GM didn't want to negotiate with Buerhle's agent during the offseason. Well, if he didn't want to talk about the numbers last year just imagine the type of numbers he won't want to discuss this year, especially is Mark continues pitching the way he has been and Zambrano, his main competition for dollars in the market, has a bad year.

There's nothing wrong with quitting now and building towards 2008 if it makes us a better team in the future. If KW becomes a buyer and trades what we have in the minors for veterans at the ends of their contracts, he is banking everything on an improbable magical run. If the Sox then lose the division, as would be likely, all of the sudden the Sox probably aren't contenders until PK hits FA. I like our GM being risky, but I don't like him being stupid.

getonbckthr
06-18-2007, 05:42 PM
Stay as is- waste of time and money
go for it- too far behind too much ground to make-up
trade- best option at this point. We will not and should not resign our FA, we have no shot this year and I don't want to get draft picks this isn't the NFL or NBA. Worried about the team image and drawing fans sign either/or/both Ichiro and Arod in the offseason. Spend the god damn money like you did on Albert Belle.

eastchicagosoxfan
06-18-2007, 06:08 PM
Wait.
I think the team can compete if Pods can come back healthy. It's too early for a firesale. I also think that many of those in favor of a firesale overestimate what the Sox can get for Dye and Gooch.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2007, 06:10 PM
Geton:

I don't think you're going to be seeing any more Albert Belle / Jamie Navarro type signings. Navarro blew up in Ron Schueler's face and soured ownership on pitching deals longer then three seasons.

Belle was also a fluke simply because ownership wanted to get even with the other owners for setting the 1994-95 labor impasse. They got back by singing Belle to the largest deal (at that time) ever given to a free agent.

Why do you think the 'escape clause' was put in it and that it would take effect after only two years or whenever Albert became not one of the top five highest paid players? It was all cooly calculated.

By the way in 'payment' for signing Belle the other owners removed JR from the powerful labor relations committee which formulated policy and made recommendations to the commissioner.

Lip

oeo
06-18-2007, 06:14 PM
Fire sale. No one is untouchable.

Do you understand the terrible years we will have in our future if we trade everyone away? And this is for unproven prospects, which we hope will amount to another championship, but we waited 88 years for our last one...I'm not confident that we can just rebuild a championship squad.

Re-tool, don't rebuild; we still have pieces to a very good team, we just have some holes to fill.

frankthetank
06-18-2007, 06:18 PM
Over 70% vote for fire sale. My first thought is how many people saying that rode in on the bandwagon. For the rest, its frustrating after 05', but we know what this team is capable of. The core of this team did win a world series. The Twins came back last year, the Indians the year before. Its too early to write this team off. Wait till after the all-star break to abandon them.

Tragg
06-18-2007, 06:25 PM
Re-tool, don't rebuild; we still have pieces to a very good team, we just have some holes to fill.
2b, SS and every outfield position. (could also use a young catcher; 2b may not have to be filled).

and the bullpen.
And I would suggest at least one major league hitter on the bench, instead of a bench with 100% utility players. Cintron as top pinch hitter (somewhat because of the manager and somewhat because of injuries) is not a formula for success.

Tall order, but doable with midseason trades and using our pitching depth.

getonbckthr
06-18-2007, 06:27 PM
Over 70% vote for fire sale. My first thought is how many people saying that rode in on the bandwagon. For the rest, its frustrating after 05', but we know what this team is capable of. The core of this team did win a world series. The Twins came back last year, the Indians the year before. Its too early to write this team off. Wait till after the all-star break to abandon them.
If you wait you will lose value for the players we will trade. We make a move within the next 2 weeks we will get maximum value.

DieTrying79
06-18-2007, 06:32 PM
Fire sale, I think it's time to get rid of the dead weight that makes this club awful like Uribe and Contreras. Trade Dye.

As far as the off-season, there are a couple of SS's worth looking at. Carlos Guillen and Eckstein. Guillen will probably sign before free agency begins but Eckstein would be ok in my eyes.

The biggest move that needs to be made is pick up Ichiro. This guy is flat out dominate. .332 career average, 6-time gold glove, is on pace for another 240+ hit season. It's time for Kenny to break the bank for this guy.

Here is my ideal line-up.

Ichiro RF
Erstad CF
Konerko 1B
Thome DH
Fields 3b
AJ C
Gooch 2B
Sweeney LF
Eckstien/Andy Gonzalez SS

Rotation:
MB
Garland
Danks
Javy (maybe, depends on his 2nd half of 07)
Gio

Bullpen help, 2-3 guys. The payroll is probably going to increase and that's why I have Andy at SS.

I like the scenario you've outlined here. I could certainly live with that and get excited about 2008, if it were the case.

Jerome
06-18-2007, 06:56 PM
fire sale. an offense is required to win games in baseball, this team doesn't have one

Tragg
06-18-2007, 06:58 PM
If you wait you will lose value for the players we will trade. We make a move within the next 2 weeks we will get maximum value.
You're probably right, but I doubt we do it for at least a month.
The Mets are slumping horribly right now, so perhaps they'd soon be desperate and overpay.

areilly
06-18-2007, 07:37 PM
Over 70% vote for fire sale. My first thought is how many people saying that rode in on the bandwagon. For the rest, its frustrating after 05', but we know what this team is capable of. The core of this team did win a world series. The Twins came back last year, the Indians the year before. Its too early to write this team off. Wait till after the all-star break to abandon them.

I didn't ride in on the bandwagon, so I can't speak for what the new fans want or know. What I can say is that, as the last 65 games have shown, this team is only capable of things like getting decimated in the late innings, popping up third-strike bunts, getting hurt, batting a collective .240, and losing repeatedly to the likes of the Pirates, Astros and Cubs.

And in case we've forgotten, the reason the Twins came back last year was because ahead of them - the team we were all rooting for - folded up the tent in July.

History has afforded us the luxury of knowing what the 2005 team was capable of, but that was two seasons ago now. There's a reason that team was special. Several of them, actually.

Hitmen77
06-18-2007, 08:31 PM
One question I have is - assuming the Sox don't make a miraculous comeback to be within striking distance of the division leaders by the end of July - how would people here feel if the Sox did nothing?

Again, assuming they're still about 10 games back or so by the trading deadline, what would be the reaction if we traded nobody and kept Buehrle, Iguchi, AND Dye? Since I find it hard to believe we will re-sign all 3, I'll be disappointed to see them all potentially walk for nothing.

nedlug
06-18-2007, 08:47 PM
OK, I'll admit it... I am ever the optimist...

UserNameBlank
06-18-2007, 09:28 PM
One question I have is - assuming the Sox don't make a miraculous comeback to be within striking distance of the division leaders by the end of July - how would people here feel if the Sox did nothing?

Again, assuming they're still about 10 games back or so by the trading deadline, what would be the reaction if we traded nobody and kept Buehrle, Iguchi, AND Dye? Since I find it hard to believe we will re-sign all 3, I'll be disappointed to see them all potentially walk for nothing.
I wouldn't care if we kept Iguchi since we'll probably get more in draft picks than we would get by trading him, but if the Sox do not intend on re-signing Mark and Dye and happen to pass on a couple top prospects I'll be very pissed at KW.

frankthetank
06-18-2007, 09:36 PM
I just want to go on record and say that I do believe in the 2007 Chicago White Sox. No Fire Sale. I can't be pessimistic. Oh yeah, the power of the bump.:bandance: Where are the firefighters on this forum? We have arsonists.

MRM
06-18-2007, 11:23 PM
I voted fire sale, but i still wouldn't trade Buehrle (try to resign him). Dye has to go. There was no way that he would have been resigned after this year. Iguchi could be traded, but I doubt he has any value.

So you like the idea of selling low? Guess you aren't a stock market player.

If Dye were hitting .320 with 15HRs and 65RBI right now you'd be advocating keeping him at any cost. If MB were putting up similar numbers to his second half of last year you'd be trying to dump him on the first sucker who would take him.

Fact is, neither is worth a hell of a lot in the trade market right now, and you NEVER get back equal value in MLB players. Teams who are contending aren't giving up the players who got them there. You get back PROSPECTS this time of year. Sox fans won't be happy with that. Sox fans seem to think MB is worth two or three MLB ready studs. He's not. He's worth 1 big time prospect and a wild card prospect, at best.

MRM
06-18-2007, 11:25 PM
I wouldn't care if we kept Iguchi since we'll probably get more in draft picks than we would get by trading him, but if the Sox do not intend on re-signing Mark and Dye and happen to pass on a couple top prospects I'll be very pissed at KW.

As if you would know in the first place what was offered

MRM
06-18-2007, 11:29 PM
One question I have is - assuming the Sox don't make a miraculous comeback to be within striking distance of the division leaders by the end of July - how would people here feel if the Sox did nothing?

Again, assuming they're still about 10 games back or so by the trading deadline, what would be the reaction if we traded nobody and kept Buehrle, Iguchi, AND Dye? Since I find it hard to believe we will re-sign all 3, I'll be disappointed to see them all potentially walk for nothing.

For starters they don't walk for "nothing". Secondly if you can't get fair trade value (subjective, of course) then you don't do a deal. Period. If Kenny were to do a stupid deal he'd forever brand himself an easy mark and would hold no leverage in the future. Better to let them walk as FAs (and get the ensuing draft choices) than to tell the entire baseball world that you'll fold under pressure.

UserNameBlank
06-18-2007, 11:33 PM
As if you would know in the first place what was offered
If some report came out and said something about a good deal getting nixed by the Sox I'd be pissed about it. But no, I wouldn't be privy to the discussions.

Nellie_Fox
06-19-2007, 12:21 AM
In my view, there's not much difference between losing 85 games and losing 95 games. COMMENCE REBUILDING.

There is a huge difference in finishing 4 games under .500 as compared to 14 games under .500.

Losing 85 games is a record of 77-85, which is 8 games under, not 4. Losing 95 games is a record of 67-95, 28 games under, not 14, so it's a much bigger difference.

MRM
06-19-2007, 01:07 AM
Losing 85 games is a record of 77-85, which is 8 games under, not 4. Losing 95 games is a record of 67-95, 28 games under, not 14, so it's a much bigger difference.

So if the Sox finish 77-85 you'll feel better than if they finish 67-95?

Nellie_Fox
06-19-2007, 01:21 AM
So if the Sox finish 77-85 you'll feel better than if they finish 67-95?
No. Just correcting the misunderstanding about "games under" calculation. However, on a day-by-day basis, that would make ten fewer days on which I'd be depressed.:(:

So, I'd have that goin' for me. Which is good.

MRM
06-19-2007, 01:40 AM
If some report came out and said something about a good deal getting nixed by the Sox I'd be pissed about it. But no, I wouldn't be privy to the discussions.

Such reports happen all the time. Why would you get worked up about something some wannabe sports jockey claims?

ZombieRob
06-19-2007, 01:41 AM
Well according to the Trib,the Sox managment team met with Konerko to get his feelings about it.And he says "lets go for it".You know of course he'd say that knowing he's one of the players that deserve to be traded.

MRM
06-19-2007, 01:44 AM
No. Just correcting the misunderstanding about "games under" calculation. However, on a day-by-day basis, that would make ten fewer days on which I'd be depressed.:(:

So, I'd have that goin' for me. Which is good.

Seems to me once you offically decide the Sox are "out of it" (which I haven't) you would be free from the day to day agonizing stuff.

MRM
06-19-2007, 01:46 AM
Well according to the Trib,the Sox managment team met with Konerko to get his feelings about it.

You don't actually BELIEVE this, do you?

ZombieRob
06-19-2007, 01:48 AM
They have consulted with him before.Remember last year when they consulted Dye Thome and Konerko? And that was repoted in all the papers.

Scottiehaswheels
06-19-2007, 01:51 AM
You don't actually BELIEVE this, do you?http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070618&content_id=2034818&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Nellie_Fox
06-19-2007, 01:55 AM
Seems to me once you offically decide the Sox are "out of it" (which I haven't) you would be free from the day to day agonizing stuff.No, not me. I still suffer with every game, no matter how the season has gone.

Of course, there are degrees of suffering. A loss on the last day of a bad season is only mildly depressing, as compared to the angst involved in losing when in the heat of a pennant race, but I still watch/listen to the games, and I still hate a loss.

ZombieRob
06-19-2007, 01:58 AM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070618&content_id=2034818&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws
I think these last 2 years have probably been the worst.last year Williams didn't pull the trigger when the Sox could have gotten and arm to help the rotation.Then Ozzie the Great blames McCarthy more or less for costing them the season when in actuality it was Buerhles doing.and all this why? Becuse they listened to the players,and IMO ,thats something a strong Managment team should never do. Never fall in love with your players.

MRM
06-19-2007, 01:58 AM
They have consulted with him before.Remember last year when they consulted Dye Thome and Konerko? And that was repoted in all the papers.

Is this a joke? "It was in all the papers so it must be true".

What you are suggesting is the equivalent of the President of the United States asking his secretary if he should declare war.

I mean, if you really believe this nonsense, I really don't have a comeback that you would understand.

MRM
06-19-2007, 02:00 AM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070618&content_id=2034818&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws


Great link.

It starts:

"Interest in Buehrle stokes rumor mill"

Fantastic way to put me in my place.

ZombieRob
06-19-2007, 02:01 AM
No, not me. I still suffer with every game, no matter how the season has gone.

Of course, there are degrees of suffering. A loss on the last day of a bad season is only mildly depressing, as compared to the angst involved in losing when in the heat of a pennant race, but I still watch/listen to the games, and I still hate a loss.
I'm with you .I can't stand losing.I suppose its becuse im a sore loser when it comes to my team.And it always used to sting when it was a main rival team.I miss the days when K.C was a rival and the Brewers were our natural rival. And what really sucks is in all the years of interleague(which i despise) we havn't even played the Brewers.

ZombieRob
06-19-2007, 02:03 AM
Is this a joke? "It was in all the papers so it must be true".

What you are suggesting is the equivalent of the President of the United States asking his secretary if he should declare war.

I mean, if you really believe this nonsense, I really don't have a comeback that you would understand.
Contrary to what people believe ,All the papers in Chicago aren't out to ruin the White Sox.I can see one paper maybe misquoate someone ,but all 4 of them?

Scottiehaswheels
06-19-2007, 02:06 AM
Great link.

It starts:

"Interest in Buehrle stokes rumor mill"

Fantastic way to put me in my place.I just wanted you to read down about 5 paragraphs where it talks about Konerko and the meeting with KW and Ozzie today..

ZombieRob
06-19-2007, 02:10 AM
I just wanted you to read down about 5 paragraphs where it talks about Konerko and the meeting with KW and Ozzie today..
I guess even though its on the Sox website and the same thing happened last year I'm not supposed to believe it.I mean anything printed in the papers or online about the Sox just can't be true.

slavko
06-19-2007, 01:06 PM
While Curtis Granderson himself has 13 triples himself.

Stomach that one.

CG plays in a huge ballpark, hits line drives, and can run.

We play in a smallish ballpark, nobody's hitting, and few on the active roster can run.

It isn't hard to deduce why there's a difference in the stats.

soxinem1
06-19-2007, 04:10 PM
This is false. The Twins have not played well at all this year, and the Tigers are being carried by their offense. There's no way any team can continue to hit .290+ as a team; they will falter.

Seems like I heard that a few times about DET and MIN last season.......


I voted to clean house. No pep, no fire, fundamentals.

We got old in a hurry. Other than a few guys like Danks, Jenks, and Fields, I cannot see anyone who is not untouchable, or replaceable.

More disappointing is the fact that KW and his great minor league staff have no minor league depth at all.

When Larry Himes was GM, he always made a point when trades were made to get some sort of pitcher in return. And he took lefties by the truckload.

In the past, organizations were noted for what types of players they produced, be it pitching, power hitters, OF's, etc. We have produced Magglio, Buerhle, Crede, and Rowand the past ten years.

I say it's time to go back to the way Himes did things.

ZombieRob
06-19-2007, 04:22 PM
Seems like I heard that a few times about DET and MIN last season.......


I voted to clean house. No pep, no fire, fundamentals.

We got old in a hurry. Other than a few guys like Danks, Jenks, and Fields, I cannot see anyone who is not untouchable, or replaceable.

More disappointing is the fact that KW and his great minor league staff have no minor league depth at all.

When Larry Himes was GM, he always made a point when trades were made to get some sort of pitcher in return. And he took lefties by the truckload.

In the past, organizations were noted for what types of players they produced, be it pitching, power hitters, OF's, etc. We have produced Magglio, Buerhle, Crede, and Rowand the past ten years.

I say it's time to go back to the way Himes did things.
Yea ,But before any future trades are made K.W certainly will be consulting P.K on any future deals,since P.K has "a lot" of input wether a trade should be made or not.I do agree with you ,we did get old in a hurry.My concern is why alot of our minor leaguers never seem to pan out?Even though the jury is still out on Fields.

balke
06-19-2007, 04:41 PM
I do agree with you ,we did get old in a hurry.My concern is why alot of our minor leaguers never seem to pan out?Even though the jury is still out on Fields.

The jury is out on all of them really. Right now the verdicts don't look like they'll be good. What is going on down there on the farm?

WhiteSox5187
06-20-2007, 12:20 AM
The jury is out on all of them really. Right now the verdicts don't look like they'll be good. What is going on down there on the farm?
I don't know. But I'm trying to figure out if this either reflects poorly on Kenny or the farm system. But somebody should be held responsible for that. We haven't had a guy on this team who has shown he can play everyday since Crede came up. And when did he come up? 2003? And boy did he struggle for a long time. When was the last time we called up a guy who made an impact right away and continued to make an impact years after? Was it Rowand? Or do you have to go all the way back to Frank?

INSox56
06-20-2007, 09:15 AM
So is anyone else getting worried that our best tradeable players are getting injured now? Thome is somewhat of a value for trades, is having big back pains. JD admits to a strained quad and doesn't want to go on the DL, though it would probably help. Crede is obviously not going anywhere. If these guys with historically bad injury reports keep it up, we might just be in a nightmare scenario...a bad season and a high payroll that you can't even get rid of because no one wants them (though it's more than a payroll issue, it's a restocking the farm issue). Am I overreacting or what...?