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A. Cavatica
06-17-2007, 07:58 PM
Just taking the temperature of the fan base.

soxinem1
06-17-2007, 08:16 PM
Show him the door. Even the pitiful 1989 White Sox (which he was a member of) had more of a pulse.

These guys look like a walking funeral home. This is now 3 of 4 Ozzie teams that are under achievers.

JB98
06-17-2007, 08:28 PM
No. We suck for two reasons: 1. KW's offseason bullpen renovation didn't work. 2. Injuries. Neither of those things is on Ozzie.

spiffie
06-17-2007, 08:30 PM
:fireozzie

I don't really think they should, but the image needed to be in here somewhere.

RockJock07
06-17-2007, 08:34 PM
No, you don't fire Ozzie. What do you gain this season by doing that? nothing, this team isn't going anywhere this year so you bring up some more kids and let the rest of the season play out. I blame the players, if Dye, Konerko, Thome decided to hit then Ozzie would be fine. If Uribe decided to hit and stop having brain cramps then Ozzie would be fine. It's not Ozzie's fault, is he perfect? No, but no one thought the offense would tank this much.

Law11
06-17-2007, 09:33 PM
who's gonna fill in? Harold, Joey? Please...

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2007, 09:34 PM
I'm going to answer the question with a few questions.

First, do the Sox hope or plan to "rebuild," or at least work in a few young players?

If so, can Ozzie manage a team where developing young players is a priority?

Brian26
06-17-2007, 09:35 PM
This is now 3 of 4 Ozzie teams that are under achievers.

Ozzie also brought home the only World Championship in the last 90 years. That's 1 out of 90.

Brian26
06-17-2007, 09:36 PM
If so, can Ozzie manage a team where developing young players is a priority?

Williams and Ozzie have said all along that they aren't meant for rebuilding franchises. The Sox will re-tool and tweak, but they won't rebuild.

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2007, 09:50 PM
Williams and Ozzie have said all along that they aren't meant for rebuilding franchises. The Sox will re-tool and tweak, but they won't rebuild.

Fair enough. How will they re-tool and tweak?

Free agency? Outbid for true stars? Overpay for mediocrity? Or hope to find diamonds in the rough? Under JR, the Sox have done #1 once (Belle), and #2 infrequently but often enough (Navarro, etc.) that they usually only go for #3 (Dye, AJ, Iguchi).

Trades? Who do they have to trade? Other than the impending FA's, their only players (non-prospects) with good trade value are Danks, Jenks, Garland, Paulie, Contreras and Vazquez (maybe AJ). I'd trade Paulie, but no one else would.

I wouldn't re-build, but I'd definitely aggressively re-load, and that would require working in - and being patient with - a few young players.

TheOldRoman
06-17-2007, 09:57 PM
No. We suck for two reasons: 1. KW's offseason bullpen renovation didn't work. 2. Injuries. Neither of those things is on Ozzie.The biggest reason the Sox' season is spiraling down the toilet is the complete and utter inability to hit. The bullpen has been terrible for about a month. The offense has been terrible for the entire year, as well as the second half of last year. This team wasn't hitting before Pods and Thome got injured. Injuries haven't helped, but they are not an excuse.

TornLabrum
06-17-2007, 09:58 PM
Definitely not, and, btw, :threadsucks

veeter
06-17-2007, 10:00 PM
Ozzie makes bad moves almost on a daily basis. But to me, he's still a great guy for the job because his players like him. Managers always get way to much of the blame and way to much of the credit. Most of the success, or in this case, the failure, is on the players. So far, the veterans PK, Dye, bullpen, et al. have completely sucked. They just need to re-group, find a direction and win another championship. And I know they will.

slobes
06-17-2007, 10:12 PM
Ozzie can not be blamed for the suckiness known as the '07 White Sox. Injuries have hurt us really bad, and I don't think it's as much bad managing as it is guys not performing.

chisoxmike
06-17-2007, 10:14 PM
Why would you fire a manager who A) Has had this team finish with +.500 records every season he's been here. B) One a World Series in his second year as manager. C) Fault him for KW's bonehead bullpen moves D) Injuries. & E) The team not being able to hit, when in the past three years that has been their strong suit?

:threadsucks

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2007, 10:19 PM
Ozzie makes bad moves almost on a daily basis. But to me, he's still a great guy for the job because his players like him. Managers always get way to much of the blame and way to much of the credit. Most of the success, or in this case, the failure, is on the players. So far, the veterans PK, Dye, bullpen, et al. have completely sucked. They just need to re-group, find a direction and win another championship. And I know they will.

I think Ozzie's players like him because he doesn't ask them to do anything they don't want to do. He's not a disciplinarian. His bunting drills last season lasted two days. After this road trip debacle, who here thinks he's going to have them practice baserunning, throwing to the cutoff man, hitting behind the runner, and getting the bunt down (not bunting into a DP)? If you think he will, can I interest you in some real estate?

If given the choice between a disciplinarian and a hands-off boss, who here would choose the disciplinarian?

I would never want a disciplinarian manager/coach like Buck Showalter, who insists on coats and ties on the road, or Bill Parcells, who won't let his assistant coaches talk to reporters. In Islands in the Stream, Ernest Hemingway's semi-autobiographical lead character called that kind of discipline "B.S. discipline." I do think that the team lacks the discipline to practice the fundamentals, though.

I don't know that changing managers would fix the problem. If Daver is correct about the organization's overall philosophy of valuing "tools" over learning fundamentals, then they need a complete overhaul, from 333 W. 35th to Great Falls.

Yes, Dye and PK have sucked this year. And yes, all the speedy guys and Crede are hurt. Anderson didn't do the fundamentals last year, and I blame the organization for not teaching him to do so. But what about guys like Uribe, Cintron, Mackowiak: mediocre players imported from elsewhere? Why are they so utterly unable to execute the fundamentals? I hypothesize it's because they are not being asked to practice them.

Grzegorz
06-17-2007, 10:28 PM
Why would you fire a manager who A) Has had this team finish with +.500 records every season he's been here. B) One a World Series in his second year as manager. C) Fault him for KW's bonehead bullpen moves D) Injuries. & E) The team not being able to hit, when in the past three years that has been their strong suit?

Kenny's bullpen moves were not boneheaded. He addressed the issue but getting a bullpen to produce for one year, not to mention more than one year is a crap shoot.

Where this team went wrong was in their move (deliberate or not) away from the "small ball" game to the Earl Weaver game (and they're bad at this type of game too) of banging the three run home run.

This team cannot play smart or fundamental baseball. Whose fault would that be?

Mike, as for Ozzie he gets one more year... After that, if he doesn't produce he would be shown the door.

kevin57
06-17-2007, 10:30 PM
Like every other Sox fan, I'm frustrated as hell, but I don't lay the blame as Ozzie's doorstep. I disagree that there won't be major rebuilding next year. A lot of these guys are FAs next year...do you honestly think Kenny or Jerry are going to sign some of them to long term $$$ deals? :o:

Scottiehaswheels
06-17-2007, 10:31 PM
Mike, as for Ozzie he gets one more year... After that, if he doesn't produce he would be shown the door.How can you put a time limit on a manager if no one even knows what he's going to have to work with in a years time? If we dump JD, MB, JT, etc. and get back guys like BA you can't pin that on Ozzie?

soxtalker
06-17-2007, 10:32 PM
I have plenty of complaints about Ozzie, but, no, I wouldn't fire him. Ozzie is still a fairly inexperienced manager. This season is probably a good opportunity for him to learn.

TDog
06-17-2007, 10:42 PM
Show him the door. Even the pitiful 1989 White Sox (which he was a member of) had more of a pulse.

These guys look like a walking funeral home. This is now 3 of 4 Ozzie teams that are under achievers.

It's possible that one of four teams overachieved. Really, it's likely. The Sox had hitting problems in 2005, and they overcame it. They won opening day 1-0 and finished the season with a 1-0 win. Sox fans cringe at the suggestion that they were lucky in 2005, although any team doesn't win the World Series without a bit of luck. And no team wins 99 games and the World Series through luck alone.

It was pitching that won the championship. It was the starters and the bullpen and Guillen's use of the bullpen. It was clutch hitting and situational hitting.

The White Sox wouldn't be doing any better this year if Lou Piniella were managing. Or Joe Torre. Or Jim Leyland.

Firing Guillen would make matters worse.

Lukin13
06-17-2007, 10:43 PM
I voted NO...

But

To all of you guys posting that this team is screwed because of injuries...

What did you expect?

Pods and Erstad were like your Grandma's antiques during and earthquake... and Thome took essentially a scheduled break (a little more premature than management would have liked).

That is it!

The Sox haven't had a player go down that you couldn't have seen coming YET!

I wish I could find a list of players that have spent time on the DL this season. I bet Scotty P and Mr. Grinderball3000 aren't in the top 50.
On paper the Sox have experienced LESS than average injury trouble this season. I do realize that losing both of our leadoff hitters has been troublesome but c'mon... half of the mlb has lost multiple starting pitchers for extended lengths of time.

TDog
06-17-2007, 10:43 PM
I have plenty of complaints about Ozzie, but, no, I wouldn't fire him. Ozzie is still a fairly inexperienced manager. This season is probably a good opportunity for him to learn.

This is the most insightful post in this thread.

Grzegorz
06-17-2007, 10:47 PM
How can you put a time limit on a manager if no one even knows what he's going to have to work with in a years time? If we dump JD, MB, JT, etc. and get back guys like BA you can't pin that on Ozzie?

Remember, the Chicago White Sox are reloading not rebuilding. That's what Ozzie and Kenny keep telling us fans.

Ozzie's not being asked to wet nurse rookies. Ozzie is being asked to pilot a championship calibre baseball team.

Tragg
06-17-2007, 10:58 PM
Ozzie clearly doesn't deserve to be fired. But this meltdown goes a lot deeper than injuries to podsednik and erstad and a leaky pen. Relatively soon, we'll have to make a decision about the philosophy for the rest of the year. What we're doing, certainly isn't the answer: giving maximum at bats to Cintron, Rob, Torrero and Gonzales isn't helping this year or and we can only pray that it isn't part of the future.
Considering the low quality of play, I would think Williams and Guillen might take this opportunity to upgrade the coaching staff.

alohafri
06-17-2007, 10:59 PM
I didn't vote, but I can see why Ozzie should go and why he shouldn't go.

IMO, in the "Fire Ozzie" column: He has misused the bullpen all year long. Our bullpen isn't good enough to bring in a pitcher to face one batter and then bring in another pitcher to face another batter. Then he is forced to keep someone like MacDoodieinmypants in too long. Speaking of which, his use of MacDoodieinmypants period. After as poorly as this guy has pitched this season, why is Ozzie thinking, "Hey, this might be the day he gets it together"? In one of the Philadelphia games, Ozzie brought in a relief pitcher toward the end of the game (7th?) and failed to make a double switch. The reliever wound up hitting second in that inning! This coming from a guy who was trained in the National League? Ozzie insists on putting infielders in the outfield (Mack, Gonzalez, etc.). Not everyone is that much of a utility guy!

On the "Don't Fire Him" side: Ozzie can only play the guys Kenny and Jerry give him. Ozzie isn't the one who isn't hitting, who isn't getting guys out. It isn't Ozzie's fault that all of these guys are hurt.

I can see both sides. My gut tells me he won't be fired.

Noneck
06-17-2007, 11:11 PM
Something has to be done to shake this team up and maybe canning Skip Oz will help and maybe it won't. But without knowing who would take the helm (Bevington is available), I don't see how anyone could vote to can Oz.

MUsoxfan
06-17-2007, 11:20 PM
Ozzie can't make them hit the ball
Ozzie can't make relief pitchers get outs
Ozzie can't play God and cure injuries

He manages the hand that he has dealt and he hasn't done a horrible job of it.

JB98
06-17-2007, 11:33 PM
The biggest reason the Sox' season is spiraling down the toilet is the complete and utter inability to hit. The bullpen has been terrible for about a month. The offense has been terrible for the entire year, as well as the second half of last year. This team wasn't hitting before Pods and Thome got injured. Injuries haven't helped, but they are not an excuse.

There is no question the offense has sucked. That's not even an argument. But during this 4-17 stretch, we have had the lead in almost every game. Our pitching staff can't hold a lead to save their mortal souls. Ozzie chooses from a host of horse**** options every time he goes to the bullpen. If we had a solid bullpen, I believe we would be .500 right now despite the horse**** offense. If we're at .500 right now, we're not having this discussion. We'd be talking about adding a bat and making a run in the second half.

A. Cavatica
06-17-2007, 11:48 PM
Hal, why the "This Thread Sucks" guy when this thread doesn't take a position, yes or no?

I think it's a question that can legitimately be asked, given (1) the performance of the team for the past year, and (2) Ozzie's own performance over the past year. At what point does a manager use up all the capital he accumulated after winning a World Series?

Do you believe Ozzie is a sacred cow, and the question is off limits?

RockJock07
06-18-2007, 12:06 AM
Ozzie can't make them hit the ball
Ozzie can't make relief pitchers get outs
Ozzie can't play God and cure injuries

He manages the hand that he has dealt and he hasn't done a horrible job of it.

I'm pretty sure this is the most insightfull post

PKalltheway
06-18-2007, 01:03 AM
Firing Ozzie isn't going to magically cure this team's hitting woes, or their bullpen woes for that matter.

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2007, 01:32 AM
If you're going to fire Ozzie you oughta fire Kenny too. Ozzie is playing with the toys that Kenny bought him and so far those toys either a) suck or b) are injured.

letsgosox1592
06-18-2007, 01:38 AM
if the sox dont start playing better ball, i would not be surprised to see ozzie gone..in fact i would be happy if he was gone, as it shows, ozzie doesnt have the same motivation as he had in his first couple of years. players are getting to comfortable with ozzies ways and they relax and either ozzie needs to go or some new players need to come here. i would love to see joe girardi come to the sox if they fire ozzie.

letsgosox1592
06-18-2007, 01:41 AM
If you're going to fire Ozzie you oughta fire Kenny too. Ozzie is playing with the toys that Kenny bought him and so far those toys either a) suck or b) are injured.

yes but u really cant blame kenny here because he has mostly proven veterans here who have shown they can do what the sox need them to do to win a championship and then it all the pressure to produce then comes from the coaching staff. i kno the sox need to at least fire greg walker and maybe ozzie but kenny has built a team that hasnt played to the expectations. yes the bullpen has blown probably at least 10-15 games which is sad and horrific.

TornLabrum
06-18-2007, 01:47 AM
Hal, why the "This Thread Sucks" guy when this thread doesn't take a position, yes or no?

I think it's a question that can legitimately be asked, given (1) the performance of the team for the past year, and (2) Ozzie's own performance over the past year. At what point does a manager use up all the capital he accumulated after winning a World Series?

Do you believe Ozzie is a sacred cow, and the question is off limits?

Given that

1) Ozzie was given a bullpen that was truly horrible; and

2) He has been saddled with injuries to at least four starters that I can remember, with three of them remaining on the DL right now along with one of his most important bench players;

The question is in and of itself ridiculous.

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2007, 01:53 AM
yes but u really cant blame kenny here because he has mostly proven veterans here who have shown they can do what the sox need them to do to win a championship and then it all the pressure to produce then comes from the coaching staff. i kno the sox need to at least fire greg walker and maybe ozzie but kenny has built a team that hasnt played to the expectations. yes the bullpen has blown probably at least 10-15 games which is sad and horrific.
Oh, well, Kenny should be given a pass because he meant well??? Yes, he has brought in some proven guys (Thome) but he has also made some incredibly stupid trades and the guys he brought in this year, our "live arms" and "back to the grind guys" are either grinding it out on the DL or couldn't find the strike zone with a bus! And all the pressure SHOULD come from the coachign staff, actually, it SHOULD come from the players themsevles and if not the players then they have no buisness in the majors and especially on this team.

Really when you look at this team and what we wanted, it wasn't even that! I mean going into the beginning of this year, who on this team could manufacture runs? Who could get on a lot and steal bases? We had two guys who at their absolute best could do that, Pods and Erstad and both of them were injury prone. Kenny went out and got a lot of guys with great stuff but historically couldn't find the plate (see Sisco, Andrew). This team on paper wasn't really that good. It certainly wasn't that bad but there were a hell of a lot of holes with this team on paper.

Nellie_Fox
06-18-2007, 02:18 AM
See, here's why I don't think I know more than these guys who have spent their entire adult life immersed inside baseball:

Before the season got underway, I was talking to Twins fans at work, discussing the AL central. My read on the Sox was that the offense would be fine, if a bit slow. The bullpen was going to be impressive with the changes that had been made over the past year. I was, however, concerned with the starting pitching.

Well, how did that work out for me?

It's soooooo easy to point out what went wrong after it does. Over fifty years of Sox fandom keeps teaching me that I don't know a damn thing.

RockJock07
06-18-2007, 02:43 AM
If you're going to fire Ozzie you oughta fire Kenny too. Ozzie is playing with the toys that Kenny bought him and so far those toys either a) suck or b) are injured.

First off, Fire Kenny? Wow, please review his resume. Just so I understand you, what "toys" didn't you want him to bring in?

Secondly, well said Nellie, your right on.

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2007, 03:47 AM
First off, Fire Kenny? Wow, please review his resume. Just so I understand you, what "toys" didn't you want him to bring in?

Secondly, well said Nellie, your right on.
I'm not suggesting that he SHOULD be fired, I'm merely saying that Kenny holds as much blame for this team's failures as Ozzie does. Now as far as what Kenny could have done, obviously I'd have liked to have another option in CF, but I liked the Erstad signing. I thought trusting Pods was a bit risky. But I really don't know who else on the market he could have gotten for that. I also think that Kenny should have done research and realized that these guys he brought in for the bullpen have a history of wildness. That's about it. And Nellie is absolutely right, the great thing about this game is that something can look to be an absolute certainty (like our offense) and then wind up making everyone look like an idiot.

Frontman
06-18-2007, 05:01 AM
No. We suck for two reasons: 1. KW's offseason bullpen renovation didn't work. 2. Injuries. Neither of those things is on Ozzie.


JB is right. The manager is only as good as the tools he's got to work with. And this toolbox is missing a few screws.

And bolts.

A few screwdrivers are needed.

A hammer or two would be nice.

Oh, and vice grips. You know, things that work in the clutch.

:wink:

Too bad this team wasn't put together by Craftsman, as you can always return Craftsman tools for brand new ones.

Bulls_Fan
06-18-2007, 09:12 AM
A legitimate question to ask people who do not want Ozzie fired is when would you fire him?

Everyone knows the manager cannot hit or pitch for his players. So when will you hold him accountable?

To me Ozzie is not untouchable. I would though wait until the end of the season to see how this team finishes up.

Kenny deserves A LOT of heat. He has totally mismanaged a 100 million dollar payroll for one of the worst teams in baseball. Giving Mr .500 Javy close to 12 million/year was just a boneheaded move....Yes i'm prepared to hear all the arguments about Javy getting market value.

Johnny Mostil
06-18-2007, 09:14 AM
See, here's why I don't think I know more than these guys who have spent their entire adult life immersed inside baseball:

Before the season got underway, I was talking to Twins fans at work, discussing the AL central. My read on the Sox was that the offense would be fine, if a bit slow. The bullpen was going to be impressive with the changes that had been made over the past year. I was, however, concerned with the starting pitching.

Well, how did that work out for me?

It's soooooo easy to point out what went wrong after it does. Over fifty years of Sox fandom keeps teaching me that I don't know a damn thing.

Professor, do I recall correctly that you teach politics? If so, then I assume you can appreciate Schumpeter's observation that, in discussing same, man--I'm not excluding myself here--sometimes "drops down to a lower level of mental performance . . . argu[ing] and analyz[ing] in a way which he would readily recognize as infantile within the sphere of his real interests.

40+ years of life keeps teaching me that applies to all sorts of "public" affairs and discussions.:wink:

itsnotrequired
06-18-2007, 09:55 AM
Kenny deserves A LOT of heat. He has totally mismanaged a 100 million dollar payroll for one of the worst teams in baseball. Giving Mr .500 Javy close to 12 million/year was just a boneheaded move....Yes i'm prepared to hear all the arguments about Javy getting market value.

How has KW "totally mismanaged" the payroll? The vast majority of players are under contract from last year. Did he mismanage it last year as well?

I have no problem with the Vazquez signing. He is an inning eater that will give you 200+ innings a year and has no history of injury. These guys are valuable, even if they are .500. Is he worth $12 million? Probably a bit much but he did take a pay cut with that contract.

PaulDrake
06-18-2007, 10:17 AM
Given that

1) Ozzie was given a bullpen that was truly horrible; and

2) He has been saddled with injuries to at least four starters that I can remember, with three of them remaining on the DL right now along with one of his most important bench players;

The question is in and of itself ridiculous. The only thing ridiculous is the stifling of honest discussion, and wolf pack attacks on posters that don't follow the herd. I know Ozzie won the World Series that eluded Lopez, Stanky, Tanner, LaRussa and Lamont. I'd take any of them over Ozzie as a game day manager. Now, it appears his current team has quit on him. You have to think long and hard to remember a team playing with less heart than the 2007 White Sox. "Corpseball" was lively compared to this bunch. So I say, blow it up and start all over again with players who'll at least try to play Ozzie's brand of ball. While I don't care for Ozzie as a game day manager, I think with the right players he's a great motivator and teacher. Give Ozzie a new team, or say goodbye to Ozzie. Is that ridiculous too?

hawkjt
06-18-2007, 11:03 AM
no, do not fire ozzie. his team is hitting about 20 points lower than the second worse hitting team in baseball.. every stat pales compared to being last in baseball in runs scored.. that is on the players.

mcdougal was great the second half last year so naturally kenny should get rid of him assuming he will never match that? c'mon , the sox have the opposite of baseball magic this year,period. it does happen.

looks like the sox will finally have a top draft pick for the first time in 15 years... all those years of picking low is catching up to them now.
no top prospects in the minors like fielder or #1 pick A-Rod.

voodoochile
06-18-2007, 11:57 AM
Definitely not, and, btw, :threadsucks

I disagree. On the surface it does have major suckage potential, but 84% of the voters don't want Ozzie fired. That gives me hope for the fanbase and the posters here at WSI. :tongue:

jabrch
06-18-2007, 12:05 PM
This is a dumb question because it would imply that JR or KW would even consider firing him.

Short of Guillen saying someting really stupid, again, he will not be fired by this franchise.

vegyrex
06-18-2007, 12:49 PM
I voted no. Getting rid of Ozzie now makes no sense.

Bulls_Fan
06-18-2007, 01:13 PM
How has KW "totally mismanaged" the payroll? The vast majority of players are under contract from last year. Did he mismanage it last year as well?

I think he did. Trading for Thome and Javier shot our payroll up (PK re=signing also contributed but I thought it was a good deal).

I was saying early on in 2006 (not on this board) when we were playing amazing that this team totally changed from the World Series team. Our slugfest mentality and base-clogging really hurt this team.

Thome is not an awful player but we already have a player like Thome....His name is PK.

MUsoxfan
06-18-2007, 01:45 PM
Thome is not an awful player but we already have a player like Thome....His name is PK.


I forgot what a huge left-handed power bat that Konerko is:rolleyes:

SBSoxFan
06-18-2007, 01:49 PM
I think he did. Trading for Thome and Javier shot our payroll up (PK re=signing also contributed but I thought it was a good deal).

I was saying early on in 2006 (not on this board) when we were playing amazing that this team totally changed from the World Series team. Our slugfest mentality and base-clogging really hurt this team.

Thome is not an awful player but we already have a player like Thome....His name is PK.

How did it totally change? You replaced Thomas/Everett with Thome. Little to no loss in speed there. You replaced Rowand with BA/Mac. Little to no loss in speed there, I think. And Javier doesn't even run the bases!

itsnotrequired
06-18-2007, 01:51 PM
I think he did. Trading for Thome and Javier shot our payroll up (PK re=signing also contributed but I thought it was a good deal).

I was saying early on in 2006 (not on this board) when we were playing amazing that this team totally changed from the World Series team. Our slugfest mentality and base-clogging really hurt this team.

Thome is not an awful player but we already have a player like Thome....His name is PK.

JR has often stated that if fans show up, they will spend money on the team. Attendance was through the roof last year and JR answered by investing in the team. And you are complaining why?

I had no problem with the Thome signing. He and Thomas both had injury concerns and KW wanted to go a different direction. With the money sent over from Philly, the Sox are paying Thome only $5.5 million last season and only $7 million this season. And how is Thome more of a "base-clogger" than Thomas would have been?

Vazquez was also purchased at a reduced rate and the Sox needed a 5th starter. For whatever reason, the Sox chose not to use McCarthy and picked up a solid innings eater in Vasquez. It just didn't work out as many thought it would.

GlassSox
06-18-2007, 02:05 PM
Ozzie can't make them hit the ball
Ozzie can't make relief pitchers get outs
Ozzie can't play God and cure injuries

He manages the hand that he has dealt and he hasn't done a horrible job of it.

Amen! Fire upper management because the people making the "real" money are not getting the job done, sounds like "re-engineering" to me.

Tragg
06-18-2007, 04:24 PM
Ozzie? No.

But some of this coaching staff is another story. One of 2 things is happening: either a coach isn't doing his job or what a coach is doing is ineffectual. Either way, it's time to go. If I don't do my job or do it poorly despite trying my best, I need to find a new job.

A quality offensive coaching staff should be able to:

a)Teach players how to execute ( on this team, that would include bunt when asked; teaching the slap hitters that the most important job is getting on base when the heart of the order is coming up behind them).

b)Assist players in avoiding slumps and help them to emerge from slumps as quickly as possible.

jdm2662
06-18-2007, 05:15 PM
Ozzie isn't perfect by any means, and I said last year his act would get old if the team stops winning.

That said, I can't put the blame on the manager this time around. You can only do so much when your bullpen continues to allow many runs, and your team can't hit my cousin's little league team.

FarWestChicago
06-18-2007, 07:38 PM
The only thing ridiculous is the stifling of honest discussion, and wolf pack attacks on posters that don't follow the herd.:whiner: Do you need a kleenex or a hug?

Dan Mega
06-18-2007, 07:39 PM
:rolling:

thechico
06-18-2007, 08:59 PM
Ozzie can't make them hit the ball
Ozzie can't make relief pitchers get outs
Ozzie can't play God and cure injuries

No, but he CAN motivate them. Lately, he has shown the temperament of Jerry Manuel. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the reasons KW brought in Ozzie was because of the fire in his belly.


He manages the hand that he has dealt and he hasn't done a horrible job of it.
Maybe not, but I keep seeing instances of Gene Lamont's disease. What do I mean? Bringing in cold (or at best tepid) relief that gives up leads or close games.

Frontman
06-18-2007, 09:08 PM
The only thing ridiculous is the stifling of honest discussion, and wolf pack attacks on posters that don't follow the herd.


Now, which wolfpack is doing the attacking?

This one:

http://www.farnworth.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/WolfPack_Main.jpg


Or are you referring to the nWo Wolfpac, AKA "nWo Red?"

http://www.stanleyart.com/wolfpacklogo.jpg

Either way, I don't think you have too much to worry about. The first pack only hunts Caribou and when needed, mice. The Second pack is gone; done in by poor booking.

thechico
06-18-2007, 09:08 PM
A legitimate question to ask people who do not want Ozzie fired is when would you fire him?
Agreed. Like any other investment, you have to know when to ditch it.

Everyone knows the manager cannot hit or pitch for his players. So when will you hold him accountable?

To me Ozzie is not untouchable. I would though wait until the end of the season to see how this team finishes up.

Kenny deserves A LOT of heat. He has totally mismanaged a 100 million dollar payroll for one of the worst teams in baseball. Giving Mr .500 Javy close to 12 million/year was just a boneheaded move....Yes i'm prepared to hear all the arguments about Javy getting market value.
It's been mentioned MANY times that AR was an average player, but what he brought went beyond statistics. Chemistry is a BIG part of winning, and as I recall in the Comcast special back in '05, AR was a big part of it.

A. Cavatica
06-18-2007, 09:57 PM
Like any other investment, you have to know when to ditch it.

I'll agree with that. I don't think Ozzie should be Manager for Life because of 2005. He is largely accountable for the team's performance, and he is fully accountable for his own performance.

I also agree that he should be forgiven for injuries and for mistakes in talent evaluation, and that his managerial track record is pretty darn good.

I have no idea if Ozzie's a good motivator. Some players have seemed to respond well to him, others have not. The team as a whole has looked dead since this time last year, and also looked bad in August/September 2005 -- but Ozzie deserves all the credit in the world for the playoff run.

I have no idea if Ozzie's a good teacher, but the team doesn't seem to be any better at smallball than it was when Ozzie took over, and Ozzie keeps trying to force players to do things they just aren't capable of doing.

I'm surprised to find that 85% of respondents think he should keep his job, but I didn't start this thread to argue for his dismissal.

UserNameBlank
06-18-2007, 10:38 PM
I don't want Ozzie fired now, but if he plays Darin Erstad everyday this year over his young guys I'll want him gone.

MRM
06-19-2007, 12:09 AM
Chemistry is a BIG part of winning, and as I recall in the Comcast special back in '05, AR was a big part of it.

Not anymore. Perhaps you missed it but the steroids era came an abrupt end last year :D:

MRM
06-19-2007, 12:11 AM
I don't want Ozzie fired now, but if he plays Darin Erstad everyday this year over his young guys I'll want him gone.

Since the object of the game, any game, is to WIN, expect to be calling for Ozzies head...

MUsoxfan
06-19-2007, 12:39 AM
I don't want Ozzie fired now, but if he plays Darin Erstad everyday this year over his young guys I'll want him gone.

While things are looking bleak, the Sox aren't exactly dead yet. If Erstad and Podsednik come back soon and come back healthy, he'd be a fool to not play them every day

UserNameBlank
06-19-2007, 12:39 AM
Since the object of the game, any game, is to WIN, expect to be calling for Ozzies head...
If it was just that simple no prospects would ever get opportunities to play through struggles when veteran bench players are available. That said, I do expect Ozzie to let me down and run out Mack and Erstad regularly.

TornLabrum
06-19-2007, 01:00 AM
No, but he CAN motivate them. Lately, he has shown the temperament of Jerry Manuel. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the reasons KW brought in Ozzie was because of the fire in his belly.

Sorry. Motivation is intrinsic, not extrinsic. Ozzie cannot motivate them. They can motivate themselves. BTW, that's why they're getting paid those big bucks...to be motivated, and we see how well THAT extrinsic motivation is working.

MRM
06-19-2007, 01:36 AM
While things are looking bleak, the Sox aren't exactly dead yet. If Erstad and Podsednik come back soon and come back healthy, he'd be a fool to not play them every day

Stop using common sense in this forum!

MRM
06-19-2007, 01:54 AM
If it was just that simple no prospects would ever get opportunities to play through struggles when veteran bench players are available. That said, I do expect Ozzie to let me down and run out Mack and Erstad regularly.

It IS "just that simple". I'm not sure why people fail to realize this. The OBJECTIVE of the game is to WIN. Every game I've ever played that was the objective, anyhow. When you pick sides in the school yard it's with an objective of winning. When Ozzie fills out a lineup card it's with the SAME objective...though a little more pronounced.

Now, I have no idea where your ridiculous theory about "no prospects would ever get opportunities..." comes from, but the objective is, AND SHOULD BE, to field the team you think gives you the best chance to win THAT DAY. Nobody ever won a pennant in a day. Nobody ever kept or lost his job over one game. It would take a special kind of stupid to manage a team the way you want it managed at the highest levels of professional sports.

You want to see "prospects" get playing time w/out earning it? become a fan of a team in Florida.

MRM
06-19-2007, 02:02 AM
Sorry. Motivation is intrinsic, not extrinsic. Ozzie cannot motivate them. They can motivate themselves. BTW, that's why they're getting paid those big bucks...to be motivated, and we see how well THAT extrinsic motivation is working.

Fans need a reason (excuse) for why their favorite team isn't performing to expectations. You are absolutely correct in stating that motivation is a personal factor at the highest level of anything, much less baseball. Does that absolve the manager? Tough to say. It's not like being the manager of Walmart where you can just jump in and show the employee how to do something.

voodoochile
06-19-2007, 08:39 AM
Fans need a reason (excuse) for why their favorite team isn't performing to expectations. You are absolutely correct in stating that motivation is a personal factor at the highest level of anything, much less baseball. Does that absolve the manager? Tough to say. It's not like being the manager of Walmart where you can just jump in and show the employee how to do something.

Well, actually he can. He can show them how to bunt and field and catch and get a good first step, BUT...

These aren't exactly WalMart employees either. I mean WalMart is an entry level retail job. I doubt you could take a poll of people (probably not even of WalMart employees) and ask the question, "Is working for WalMart your ideal job?" and get a yes response above 50%.

Now try that with being a major league baseball player. These guys are not only living their dream career, they have worked hard to be in the top 3/10000 of 1% of baseball players in he United States (that's just counting the population of the country, not every country who has a player in the league - the actual number on a world wide basis is obviously even lower).

If they weren't motivated they wouldn't be where they already are...

PaulDrake
06-19-2007, 11:20 AM
:whiner: Do you need a kleenex or a hug? Just some real strong brandy to brace me while I watch or listen to the Sox.

Tragg
06-19-2007, 11:58 AM
I don't want Ozzie fired now, but if he plays Darin Erstad everyday this year over his young guys I'll want him gone.
The return of a .310 OBP and 2 home runs will eat up that 10 game deficit and put us right in the middle of the race.

itsnotrequired
06-19-2007, 12:02 PM
The return of a .310 OBP and 2 home runs will eat up that 10 game deficit and put us right in the middle of the race.

Is this Erstad bashing? CLR01 circles the wagons...