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View Full Version : How do you not trade Buehrle?


Lukin13
06-16-2007, 04:36 PM
Everyone wants Mark back... so do I.

But Mark is not an idiot; he is going to the National League, be it with the Cards, the Mets or whoever UNLESS and American League team pays SIGNIFICANTLY more $$$. Even then there is a good chance his is still going to the land of the 3.33 era.

If the White Sox want Buehrle back they need to be the top bidder this winter; it is that simple; so IF KW needs to be the top bidder to win his services... does it really matter if he ends the season in a different uniform??? Why not get Hughes, Milledge or some other young studs in exchange for his final 15 starts this year and THEN resign him if that is what you want to do???

It is possible the Mark would have signed for a slight discount last offseason or even early this year to stay with the Sox. But that opportunity has to have passed. I wouldn't be completely shocked if a deal got done before the end of the year to appease some season ticket holders, but the only way that happens now is if Mark and his agent truly believe KW is offering way more than he will garner on the open market this offseason.

I hear countless callers to the Score and posters here saying "we need to sign mark"; Great, I mostly agree.... but please bring in a few prospects for him before you pay him the dough this winter!!!!!!!

dickallen15
06-16-2007, 04:40 PM
Everyone wants Mark back... so do I.

But Mark is not an idiot; he is going to the National League, be it with the Cards, the Mets or whoever UNLESS and American League team pays SIGNIFICANTLY more $$$. Even then there is a good chance his is still going to the land of the 3.33 era.

If the White Sox want Buehrle back they need to be the top bidder this winter; it is that simple; so IF KW needs to be the top bidder to win his services... does it really matter if he ends the season in a different uniform??? Why not get Hughes, Milledge or some other young studs in exchange for his final 15 starts this year and THEN resign him if that is what you want to do???

It is possible the Mark would have signed for a slight discount last offseason or even early this year to stay with the Sox. But that opportunity has to have passed. I wouldn't be completely shocked if a deal got done before the end of the year to appease some season ticket holders, but the only way that happens now is if Mark and his agent truly believe KW is offering way more than he will garner on the open market this offseason.

I hear countless callers to the Score and posters here saying "we need to sign mark"; Great, I mostly agree.... but please bring in a few prospects for him before you pay him the dough this winter!!!!!!!
You run the risk of the team trading for him keeping him off the market, but they would have to offer him something the Sox wouldn't anyway. I agree with you. You have to trade him. There are too many teams you have to jump over even if you can get hot. The odds of making the playoffs are very very slim. Trade off Dye also. You will have the added benefit of saving money the second half of this season. That money could be offered to Buerhle or another free agent in the offseason when you can have a realistic chance of winning again.

Frater Perdurabo
06-16-2007, 04:43 PM
I'm all for "conspriring" with Mark to trade him to a contender, and then plot to re-sign him as a free agent. The problem is that there is no guarantee that would happen. He might win a World Series with the new team and/or find a new group of friends on the new team and decide he likes it there.

As a first step before trading him, I'd much rather have KW go back on his pledge not to negotiate during the season and get to work on a deal right now. Then, trade Dye, Contreras and Paulie to get younger players and free up cash to make a run at Ichiro this offseason.

If Mark says no to all offers from JR/KW, instead demanding that he must test the open market, then trade him. But try to work out a new deal first.

Paulwny
06-16-2007, 04:48 PM
No one here knows if KW has been talking to other GM's about any possible trades. If he has been there is a possibility that the other GM's may feel KW's asking price for certain sox players is too high.

hi im skot
06-16-2007, 04:50 PM
C'mon...you knew this was coming:

:threadsucks

The odds of us trading Buehrle and then somehow getting him back in the offseason are miniscule. Let's just get him re-signed ASAP.

Lukin13
06-16-2007, 05:03 PM
C'mon...you knew this was coming:

:threadsucks


WHY???

What sucks are all of the idiots saying that we need to sign him... great!

The ONLY way the sox get Buehrle for '08 and beyond is if they are willing to pay more than any other team for his services.

If KW is willing to do so... great! Trade him, get some help, and then pay him crazy money.

If you are afraid that he is gonna make it rain w/Coco Crisp and start playing parcheesi with Hideki Okajima on off days in beantown.. and that is gonna keep Mark from taking top dollar in the offseason you are cuckoo for coco's puffs. If any team has the friendship connection it is the Sox.

Chez
06-16-2007, 05:14 PM
Has this scenario ever, in the history of baseball, occurred where a team trades a soon to be free agent then re-signs him in the off season? I can't recall that ever happening.

veeter
06-16-2007, 05:17 PM
Trade him if we can get a shortstop or catcher, that will be our team captain for the next 15 years.

rainbow6
06-16-2007, 05:22 PM
Has this scenario ever, in the history of baseball, occurred where a team trades a soon to be free agent then re-signs him in the off season? I can't recall that ever happening.

Sidney Ponson (when he was actually considered to be a top-of-the rotation starter, not the tub of goo he eventually became).

anewman35
06-16-2007, 05:33 PM
I love Mark, but the odds of him resigning with us are very slim. I think everybody agrees that the worst case scenerio is not trading him, then having him leave. If I was KW, I'd talk to him to try to find out what he's looking for. If it's way out of what the Sox want to spend (and it will be), trade him.

sox1970
06-16-2007, 05:35 PM
The day Buehrle gets traded is going to suck, but I'm resigned to the fact that it's probably going to happen. Just have to remind yourself we root for the uniform, and hopefully whoever the Sox get in return will be part of the next championship.

KRS1
06-16-2007, 05:59 PM
WHY???

What sucks are all of the idiots saying that we need to sign him... great!



:DJ" UH-OH!"

Hmmmmm. So you are an idiot for wanting to keep a team leader, fan favorite, great competitor, and proven quality starter?



The ONLY way the sox get Buehrle for '08 and beyond is if they are willing to pay more than any other team for his services.



:rolleyes:




I'm pretty sure, he has stated numerous times he would love to remain with the White Sox. He's obviously not going to take a huge discount when there are better offers out there, but I'd be willing to bet he'd strongly consider a competitive bid from us.

Oh well. I'm glad you informed us of Mark's intentions, and have cleared up all those discrepancies. Now can you hook me up with the Power Ball numbers for next week?

getonbckthr
06-16-2007, 06:02 PM
Burls is not a 17million/yr pitcher. The whole team leader arguement is garbage. If that held any weight then why didn't Boston give Millar 15 million a year? And before a comment is made No i'm not saying Millar is as important is Burls.

KRS1
06-16-2007, 06:09 PM
Burls is not a 17million/yr pitcher. The whole team leader arguement is garbage. If that held any weight then why didn't Boston give Millar 15 million a year? And before a comment is made No i'm not saying Millar is as important is Burls.

It's more about being a team leader, who is still young, and is a high quality left handed starter. Those things are all at premium in baseball today, and while 17 million may not seem like a fair price tag for that, it is what the market demands you pay him. I don't really feel we NEED to re-sign him, as much as I would like us to.

I just wanted to point out the sadness of his statement calling people "idiots" for wanting us to keep him around, and stating his opinion that there's no way he'll stay here unless we overwhelm him with cash(" The ONLY way the sox get Buehrle for '08 and beyond is if they are willing to pay more than any other team for his services."), as a fact.

getonbckthr
06-16-2007, 06:14 PM
It's more about being a team leader, who is still young, and is a high quality left handed starter. Those things are all at premium in baseball today, and while 17 million may not seem like a fair price tag for that, it is what the market demands you pay him. I don't really feel we NEED to re-sign him, as much as I would like us to.

I just wanted to point out the sadness of his statement calling people "idiots" for wanting us to keep him around, and stating his opinion that there's no way he'll stay here unless we overwhelm him with cash(" The ONLY way the sox get Buehrle for '08 and beyond is if they are willing to pay more than any other team for his services."), as a fact.
Ya I understand what your saying. Burls is my favorite player on the team but I also understand that there is a business side to it as well. 17 million may be the market but if we can get someone in a Burly trade that will put up similar results but for much, much less we could use that money else where on a few things or 1 big thing (Arod IChiro).

ChiSoxFan7
06-16-2007, 08:21 PM
We almost have to trade buehrle. I don't see a reason for keeping him UNLESS KW's future plans focus on him being the number 2 if not the number 1 in the rotation. If Buehrle is in the plans then some1 else has to go.

To get any talent in a trade you have to give up talent, so i believe that atleast 3 starters be gone by the trading deadline. I personally hope it happens sooner rather than later just so the young players (fields, terrero, danks, etc.) can gain valuable game time expierence and start the team bond/chemistry that made the '05 whitesox so different than any professional sports team I have ever watched.

Bucky F. Dent
06-16-2007, 08:40 PM
After seeing him pitch another strong eight in Pittsburgh tonight, you have to re-sign this guy. 2006 notwithstanding, he is a consistent winning pitcher.

Deal Contreras, deal Dye, but keep the best pitcher on your staff.

jabrch
06-16-2007, 09:18 PM
If Buehrle can be turned into 2 of an organization's TOP prospects, then I trade him. (Gomez/Martinez and Pelfrey/Humber or Jones/Clement etc.)

If Buehrle would get turned into mid tier prospects, I'd keep him and resign him at market value (6/90 ish?)

To me - you can only go wrong in this if you pass up a deal where a team is willing to give you a franchise changing type deal, and you then fail to give Mark what he would get on the open market (6/90 ish?).

If either we won't meet market value, or we can get a top tier package, I'd move him. I'd be content keeping him, but what would be unacceptable is not trading him, and not resigning him.

kitekrazy
06-16-2007, 09:34 PM
C'mon...you knew this was coming:

:threadsucks

The odds of us trading Buehrle and then somehow getting him back in the offseason are miniscule. Let's just get him re-signed ASAP.

Your last sentence says it right there. (along with the picture) Get rid of Vasquez and Contreras and the over priced .225 hitters and build a young team with Garland, Buerhle, and Danks.

MRM
06-16-2007, 09:40 PM
Everyone wants Mark back... so do I.

But Mark is not an idiot; he is going to the National League, be it with the Cards, the Mets or whoever UNLESS and American League team pays SIGNIFICANTLY more $$$. Even then there is a good chance his is still going to the land of the 3.33 era.

If the White Sox want Buehrle back they need to be the top bidder this winter; it is that simple; so IF KW needs to be the top bidder to win his services... does it really matter if he ends the season in a different uniform??? Why not get Hughes, Milledge

You think Hughes is available in such a deal? I don't. If the best they can get is Milledge, just keep him. ESPN has been hyping the guy for two years now...he hasn't done jack.

MRM
06-16-2007, 09:50 PM
If Buehrle would get turned into mid tier prospects, I'd keep him and resign him at market value (6/90 ish?)

I love how MBs "market value" keeps getting changed in here.

This assessment might be "reasonable" to many, but damn sure not to me. 6 year guaranteed contract for a starter who absolutely SUCKED the 2nd half of last year? 15mil/yr for SIX years? Not a freakin chance. How quickly a no-hitter erases a DISASTEROUS second half to last season. We aren't talking about Cy Young, here. We are talking about a very good (not great) left handed pitcher.

When Johan becomes a F.A. THEN throw those numbers around and I'll consider them a little more closely.

MB was almost single handedly responsible for the Sox NOT making the playoffs last year. That's a simple fact. I love the guy as much as anyone, but he is far from worth the kind of years and $$$ that regularly get thrown around by fans.

Frontman
06-16-2007, 09:57 PM
It's easy to keep MB. Find out how much money he wants, and for how long, sign the contract. THAT'S how you don't trade him.

I don't get the idea of trading the best pitcher you've got on staff. Period. Unless you're getting a pitcher that gives you the same results, you're coming out on the losing end.

MRM
06-16-2007, 09:58 PM
Your last sentence says it right there. (along with the picture) Get rid of Vasquez and Contreras and the over priced .225 hitters and build a young team with Garland, Buerhle, and Danks.

Sure. Theres a HUGE market for Vas and contr. ROFL. The "answers" are so simple when you don't actually have to make the deals...

TDog
06-16-2007, 10:14 PM
Has this scenario ever, in the history of baseball, occurred where a team trades a soon to be free agent then re-signs him in the off season? I can't recall that ever happening.

It happened with Harold Baines in 1999. He was traded to the Indians by the Orioles in August, granted free agency at the end of October and signed with the Orioles in December. Seven months later the Orioles traded him to the White Sox three years to the day after the White Sox traded him to the Orioles.

As for Mark Buehrle, I'm not so sure that he will go to the highest bidder. Harold Baines should never have been allowed to leave the White Sox organization, and Mark Buehrle should never leave the White Sox organization.

Frontman
06-16-2007, 10:15 PM
MB was almost single handedly responsible for the Sox NOT making the playoffs last year. That's a simple fact. I love the guy as much as anyone, but he is far from worth the kind of years and $$$ that regularly get thrown around by fans.


Shhhh. Don't say that too loud; as it wasn't Mark, but Brandon who cost us the playoffs. Just ask Ozzie.

Lukin13
06-16-2007, 10:15 PM
:DJ" UH-OH!"

Hmmmmm. So you are an idiot for wanting to keep a team leader, fan favorite, great competitor, and proven quality starter?





:rolleyes:




I'm pretty sure, he has stated numerous times he would love to remain with the White Sox. He's obviously not going to take a huge discount when there are better offers out there, but I'd be willing to bet he'd strongly consider a competitive bid from us.

Oh well. I'm glad you informed us of Mark's intentions, and have cleared up all those discrepancies. Now can you hook me up with the Power Ball numbers for next week?


I didn't say don't resign him; I said trade his last 15 starts on this contract and if you still want your "team leader, fan favorite, quality starter" at 4 for 60 mil then pay him then. I love Mark, and he surely seems like a pretty safe bet if you feel the pitching market is gonna stay where it currently is for the near future. But there is ZERO reason for KW to give up some decent prospects in exchange for his final 15 starts of the '07 campaign.

My crystal ball is a little hazy but I have no problem seeing that MB isn't going to take a dime less to stay in Chicago.... infact I think it is gonna take significantly more to get him to stay anywhere in the American league.

Lukin13
06-16-2007, 10:18 PM
Shhhh. Don't say that too loud; as it wasn't Mark, but Brandon who cost us the playoffs. Just ask Ozzie.

Another great point, people were ready to run him out of town last year.... My how some forget.

California Sox
06-16-2007, 10:34 PM
I love Buerhle and I've made it clear repeatedly how I feel about Javier Vazquez, but facts are facts. Vazquez is here and Buerhle's about to be gone. KW basically closed the door on it at the end of spring training. That said, when you're going to get two first round draft choices it's hard to say you're getting nothing if he walks. I say trade him only if you get at least one real impact player (the way the Marlins got Hanley Ramirez for Beckett and Arizona got CYoung for Vazquez)

Personally, I'm against acquiring Lastings Milledge. The guy has some real character flags and he hasn't proven he can hit yet. If you're going to add the next Albert Belle to your team at least Dukes has shown the bat for the role.

Tragg
06-16-2007, 10:36 PM
We're going to get some really excellent offers for MB.
Just don't blow it (like taking these Mets prospects - particularly pitchers and Millege).

Hitmen77
06-16-2007, 11:11 PM
Everyone wants Mark back... so do I.

But Mark is not an idiot; he is going to the National League, be it with the Cards, the Mets or whoever UNLESS and American League team pays SIGNIFICANTLY more $$$. Even then there is a good chance his is still going to the land of the 3.33 era.

If the White Sox want Buehrle back they need to be the top bidder this winter; it is that simple; so IF KW needs to be the top bidder to win his services... does it really matter if he ends the season in a different uniform??? Why not get Hughes, Milledge or some other young studs in exchange for his final 15 starts this year and THEN resign him if that is what you want to do???

It is possible the Mark would have signed for a slight discount last offseason or even early this year to stay with the Sox. But that opportunity has to have passed. I wouldn't be completely shocked if a deal got done before the end of the year to appease some season ticket holders, but the only way that happens now is if Mark and his agent truly believe KW is offering way more than he will garner on the open market this offseason.

I hear countless callers to the Score and posters here saying "we need to sign mark"; Great, I mostly agree.... but please bring in a few prospects for him before you pay him the dough this winter!!!!!!!

IMO, the only chance (albeit a slim one) we have to keep Buehrle is to sign him to a contract BEFORE he hits the open market. This would still be expensive and require the Sox to break with tradition - but before free agency it is possible that he'll sign for 5 yr/$75 million. After he hits the open market - forget about it, his price will zoom because there are certainly teams out there that will throw 6 or 7 year offers for even more $$$ per year.

....that is why this plan - however tempting - to trade Mark now and reacquire him via FA won't work. By then, he'll be on the open market and it'll be very hard for him to turn down some stupidly insane contract that will be offered to him.

I think the best approach for the Sox is what some others have suggested in other threads - for the Sox to break their vow to not negotiate during the season and make their best offer to Mark now to see if he will sign. If not, then trade him by the deadline for as much as we can get in return.

hi im skot
06-16-2007, 11:12 PM
WHY???

What sucks are all of the idiots saying that we need to sign him... great!

The ONLY way the sox get Buehrle for '08 and beyond is if they are willing to pay more than any other team for his services.

If KW is willing to do so... great! Trade him, get some help, and then pay him crazy money.

If you are afraid that he is gonna make it rain w/Coco Crisp and start playing parcheesi with Hideki Okajima on off days in beantown.. and that is gonna keep Mark from taking top dollar in the offseason you are cuckoo for coco's puffs. If any team has the friendship connection it is the Sox.

Perhaps I was harsh in my choice of tag, but I really think letting Mark leave the organization in any way is a bad move. I don't want that to even become an issue. Let's keep him here.

We're on the same page in that we want Mark to be re-signed...I think you'd have to be crazy (or forgotten how far excellent pitching took us in 05) to think that it's a good move for Buehrle to walk.

jabrch
06-16-2007, 11:19 PM
15mil/yr for SIX years? Not a freakin chance.

That's less than Zito got both in terms of years and in terms of $, and Buehrle, other than half of last season, has been a pretty consistent producer.

How quickly a no-hitter erases a DISASTEROUS second half to last season.

Have you seen any of his outings aside to the no hitter? This has nothing to do with the no hitter. Mark has had 13 starts this year and has allowed 3 or fewer runs in 10 of them and has not had a single start that he has not given the team a reasonable chance to win. This is normal for Mark. You are picking one bad half-season and trying to make that sound like the rule - not the exception.

When Johan becomes a F.A. THEN throw those numbers around and I'll consider them a little more closely.

First off, nobody cares what you would consider any more than you seem to respect anyone elses opinion. It is the market that matters. That said, you don't need to wait for the best pitcher in the game to get his FA deal - look at similar comps to MB who were FA last year. Mark is much better than any of the guys who got 4-48 type deals. He's no worse a pitcher than Zito. He's a better bet than Schmidt at this point in their careers. Look at what Zambrano is expecting. 15-16mm per and 5+ years is reasonable given the market.

MB was almost single handedly responsible for the Sox NOT making the playoffs last year. That's a simple fact.

No it is not. You clearly have no idea what the word "fact" means. As that is definitely not a fact.

I love the guy as much as anyone

No you don't. You obviously don't if you think he almost singlehandedly was the reason we didn't make the playoffs.

but he is far from worth the kind of years and $$$ that regularly get thrown around by fans.

It doesn't matter what FANS throw out. It matters what owners throw out. Buehrle pitches in a much more hitter friendly park than Zito. His numbers compare very favorably to Zito in nearly every way. Short of one Cy Young 5 years ago (a season he hasn't come close to repeating since) they are nearly the same pitcher.

When he hits the FA market, I have no doubt that some combination of the the Pads, Giants, Astros, Cardinals, Mets, Dodgers, Angels, Os, Jays, Ms, Rangers, etc. will be competing with the Sox to resign Mark. He may choose to take less money to go somewhere. But he will get 5+ and 15+ from multiple teams.

jabrch
06-16-2007, 11:20 PM
We're going to get some really excellent offers for MB.
Just don't blow it (like taking these Mets prospects - particularly pitchers and Millege).

In dealing with the Mets, Pelfrey or Humber, along with Gomez or Martinez would be great. Millege would be un-great.

Hitmen77
06-16-2007, 11:21 PM
I love how MBs "market value" keeps getting changed in here.

This assessment might be "reasonable" to many, but damn sure not to me. 6 year guaranteed contract for a starter who absolutely SUCKED the 2nd half of last year? 15mil/yr for SIX years? Not a freakin chance. How quickly a no-hitter erases a DISASTEROUS second half to last season. We aren't talking about Cy Young, here. We are talking about a very good (not great) left handed pitcher.

When Johan becomes a F.A. THEN throw those numbers around and I'll consider them a little more closely.

MB was almost single handedly responsible for the Sox NOT making the playoffs last year. That's a simple fact. I love the guy as much as anyone, but he is far from worth the kind of years and $$$ that regularly get thrown around by fans.

I agree with this. In fact, I think Mark's 2nd half next year was one of the main reasons why the Sox really didn't seem interested in signing him to an extension during the offseason. The question now is - now that Mark has bounced back from that horrendous showing last year, is that enough to make the Sox think he's safely back on track.

Sure. Theres a HUGE market for Vas and contr. ROFL. The "answers" are so simple when you don't actually have to make the deals...

Why not? I know these guys aren't all-stars anymore, but it's not like their ERAs are 6.00 or anything. I'm not saying we'd get any blockbuster players in return for these guys - but they'd land us something decent in return. Certain more than Garcia - who was a 1-yr rental for whoever acquired him and was known to have a troublesome decline in velocity.

RockJock07
06-17-2007, 01:35 AM
I love Buerhle and I've made it clear repeatedly how I feel about Javier Vazquez, but facts are facts. Vazquez is here and Buerhle's about to be gone. KW basically closed the door on it at the end of spring training. That said, when you're going to get two first round draft choices it's hard to say you're getting nothing if he walks. I say trade him only if you get at least one real impact player (the way the Marlins got Hanley Ramirez for Beckett and Arizona got CYoung for Vazquez)

Personally, I'm against acquiring Lastings Milledge. The guy has some real character flags and he hasn't proven he can hit yet. If you're going to add the next Albert Belle to your team at least Dukes has shown the bat for the role.

Agreed. I don't want to trade him, I think you do everything you can to keep a guy who has more career victores then Santana and who hasn't pitched under 200 innings EVER in his career.

Secondly, to say he costs the Sox the post-season last year is just plain stupid. Maybe if the Sox decided to play better baseball out of the All-Star break they could have made it. In the 16 games after the ASB the sox won 5. It could have been the fact that Contreras hit a wall the 2nd half. It could have been the fact that the Sox went 7-9 against divisional oppents in September, only 2 of those losses on Buehrle. And lets not forget about how out of there mind the Twins played in the 2nd half. Those are the reasons the sox didn't make the playoffs last season. Mark was bad, yes, but many other factors were in play.

Back to Buehrle. If you are going to trade with anyone you ask for more then just mid-level prospects. With the Mets, Kenny should ask for Jose Reyes. The Mets need pitching to compete with the Padres in the NL, they need Buehrle to put them over to the top and therefore they can put Jorge Sosa in the bullpen. If you trade with the Reds, you ask for
Dunn who can DH for another 10+ years. Cards, ask for Molina and Wainwright and a prospect. My point is that Buehrle is the best player on the Sox and if Kenny decides to move him you ask for the bank, teams will be falling all over him at the deadline, if no one wants to give up young major-league talent, KW needs to try his damnest to re-sign him in the off-season.

ilsox7
06-17-2007, 01:42 AM
Agreed. I don't want to trade him, I think you do everything you can to keep a guy who has more career victores then Santana

Make all of the other arguments you want (I have no desire to debate such things), but don't even begin to compare MB to Johan. Johan's winning percentage is significantly better than Mark's.

DrewSox56
06-17-2007, 01:48 AM
Make all of the other arguments you want (I have no desire to debate such things), but don't even begin to compare MB to Johan. Johan's winning percentage is significantly better than Mark's.

Mark is our Johan, IlSox.

He has to be re-signed. To put him out in the parking lot in July is ridiculous.

He and the team deserve better.

Scottiehaswheels
06-17-2007, 01:51 AM
With the Mets, Kenny should ask for Jose Reyes. Does Minaya have ****ING MORON tattoed on his forehead? I think you are slightly overvaluing the worth of having Mark for half a season. Let's toss in Uribe if they'll give us David Wright.

RockJock07
06-17-2007, 02:14 AM
Does Minaya have ****ING MORON tattoed on his forehead? I think you are slightly overvaluing the worth of having Mark for half a season. Let's toss in Uribe if they'll give us David Wright.

How am I "overvaluing" Mark Buehrle? The guy is a stud. 200+ innings EVER year. The Mets can't keep pedro on the field and Glavine is almost done. They need another arm that can give them what they need. If they don't make another play for pitcher, the Padres will win the NL. Buehrle would win 21-22 games in a Met uni. With the resume that Mark has I wouldn't settle for anything less then Reyes. The Mets need him, they don't want him to go to STL, or any other NL team.

Scottiehaswheels
06-17-2007, 02:26 AM
How am I "overvaluing" Mark Buehrle? The guy is a stud. 200+ innings EVER year. The Mets can't keep pedro on the field and Glavine is almost done. They need another arm that can give them what they need. If they don't make another play for pitcher, the Padres will win the NL. Buehrle would win 21-22 games in a Met uni. With the resume that Mark has I wouldn't settle for anything less then Reyes. The Mets need him, they don't want him to go to STL, or any other NL team.You really think the Mets are going to give away what? 6 more years of Reyes for a HALF SEASON of Mark? By the time we'll be ready to trade Mark, Pedro should be close to ready. Look, best we get for a half season rental of Mark at this point and time is something like a mid tier IF, and MAYBE a good AA/AAA prospect... Nothing that is an impact player of the variety you seem to think we should expect, because no one who has a chance of contending is willing or should be willing to part with an impact everyday player for a starting pitcher for a HALF SEASON.

ilsox7
06-17-2007, 02:41 AM
Mark is our Johan, IlSox.



We have no Johan. Granted, most teams do not have one either. But the White Sox have no true #1.

The Immigrant
06-17-2007, 02:51 AM
If you are going to trade with anyone you ask for more then just mid-level prospects. With the Mets, Kenny should ask for Jose Reyes.

Sorry, but even Omar Minaya isn't stupid enough to trade Jose Reyes for a three month rental.

MRM
06-17-2007, 04:01 AM
Have you seen any of his outings aside to the no hitter?

First off, nobody cares what you would consider any more than you seem to respect anyone elses opinion. It is the market that matters. He's no worse a pitcher than Zito.

No it is not. You clearly have no idea what the word "fact" means. As that is definitely not a fact.

No you don't. You obviously don't if you think he almost singlehandedly was the reason we didn't make the playoffs.

It doesn't matter what FANS throw out. It matters what owners throw out. Buehrle pitches in a much more hitter friendly park than Zito. His numbers compare very favorably to Zito in nearly every way. Short of one Cy Young 5 years ago (a season he hasn't come close to repeating since) they are nearly the same pitcher.

Where to start. Ummmmm

Yeah, I've seen all of his outings, and he's been great. Just not one of the best pitchers in the AL thus far.

You're right, it's the market that matters. I think I've been screaming that for weeks now.

It IS a fact that MBs struggles cost the Sox MIGHTILY in the second half of last year. Sorry if you don't know what a FACT is. Most in here want to WRONGLY blame the offense for last years collapse.

Again, you are right. There is no question that MB is going to get FAR more than any starting pitcher should, IMO. Just not from the Sox, thank God.

You didn't make a single point that justifies spending the money on MB. Nor did you legitimately dispute any of my points. So what was the point?

California Sox
06-17-2007, 08:11 AM
Does Minaya have ****ING MORON tattoed on his forehead? I think you are slightly overvaluing the worth of having Mark for half a season. Let's toss in Uribe if they'll give us David Wright.

No way the Mets trade Reyes for anything, but after the Sizemore, Lee, Phillips for half a season of Colon then Colon for El Duque, Jeff Liefer, Rocky Biddle trades, Minaya should be forced to have that tattooed on his forehead.

Frontman
06-17-2007, 08:31 AM
It IS a fact that MBs struggles cost the Sox MIGHTILY in the second half of last year. Sorry if you don't know what a FACT is. Most in here want to WRONGLY blame the offense for last years collapse.


No, I don't think most folks here blame the offense, the 'pen last year stunk. Granted, Mark was not his best last half of last season, but guess what? Neither was half the freakin' team.

It seems easier for you to lay blame entirely at Mark's feet, instead of sharing the blame. Personally, I'd rather the Sox take their chances with Mark over half the members of the current team.

jabrch
06-17-2007, 08:38 AM
Back to Buehrle. If you are going to trade with anyone you ask for more then just mid-level prospects. With the Mets, Kenny should ask for Jose Reyes.


If you trade with the Reds, you ask for
Dunn who can DH for another 10+ years. Cards, ask for Molina and Wainwright and a prospect. My point is that Buehrle is the best player on the Sox and if Kenny decides to move him you ask for the bank, teams will be falling all over him at the deadline, if no one wants to give up young major-league talent, KW needs to try his damnest to re-sign him in the off-season.

Um... I'm guessing you are new to how contracts work.

Reyes is young, their property for 4 more years, and cheap.

Dunn is old, and a FA next year.

Dunn we'd get in a heartbeat - because the Reds would then trade Buehrle for two top tier prospects. KW wouldn't even ask for Reyes - he is as untouchable as it gets.

jabrch
06-17-2007, 08:43 AM
Yeah, I've seen all of his outings, and he's been great. Just not one of the best pitchers in the AL thus far.

Who has been better? 5 guys? Maybe 10? He is one of the top LHP in baseball and has been for years.

You're right, it's the market that matters. I think I've been screaming that for weeks now.

Well the market shows 5/75 or 6/90 would be CHEAP.

It IS a fact

It is not - you don't know what a fact is. That is your opinion. You need to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion.


Again, you are right. There is no question that MB is going to get FAR more than any starting pitcher should

Then you clearly have no idea what the market is that you said you have been screaming about for weeks. Unless you are going to bring up the "baseball players are overpaid" nonsense, Mark will get EXACTLY what the market says he's worth.

Grzegorz
06-17-2007, 08:50 AM
If Buehrle is traded the Chicago White Sox better:
* Make sure that hole in the rotation is patched (whether from inside or outside the
organization)
* Receive some top flight major league ready position players

When you think of Mark Buehrle think of Jamie Moyer except that Buehrle is better...

This means he should be able to pitch for a long, long, time.

TheVulture
06-17-2007, 11:31 AM
17 million may be the market but if we can get someone in a Burly trade that will put up similar results but for much, much less we could use that money else where on a few things or 1 big thing (Arod IChiro).

Last year aside, there's probably less than 10 pitchers in the majors capable of what Burls does. Make 35 starts a year 230+ innings. Consistent success pitching in homer city. No way you can expect any prospects received to do the same. This guy's a once-a-decade type pitcher for the sox. Face it, this guy's the best pitcher on the south side since Jack McDowell 12+ years ago - and unlike Jack, my money's on Mark to pitch effectively into his late 30s. The sox have to keep him if they want to win in the near future.

Lukin13
06-17-2007, 11:39 AM
Back to Buehrle. If you are going to trade with anyone you ask for more then just mid-level prospects. With the Mets, Kenny should ask for Jose Reyes.

Yikes!

TheVulture
06-17-2007, 11:42 AM
With the Mets, Kenny should ask for Jose Reyes.

roflmfao.
:beer
Post first - then drink your ice-cold falstaff.

TheOldRoman
06-17-2007, 12:18 PM
MB was almost single handedly responsible for the Sox NOT making the playoffs last year. That's a simple fact. A fact, huh? It seems you don't know what the word fact means. I'm sure our slide had nothing to do with Contreras falling apart, the bullpen being horrible, Podsednik being injured/ ineffective, and most importantly, the offense being every bit as horrible as this year. It was all on Mark.

Shhhh. Don't say that too loud; as it wasn't Mark, but Brandon who cost us the playoffs. Just ask Ozzie.
:rolleyes:

RockJock07
06-17-2007, 12:57 PM
The Vulture is right, Mark is probably one of only 10 guys that can do what he does. Just because he isn't flashy that doesn't mean he isn't worth a Reyes or a Adam Dunn. In addition to that, I think if the Mets could sign him before the trade or have an agreement, they would probably part with Reyes. The Mets may have him for 4 more years at a low cost but pitching wins WS and they need.

If no Reyes, Kenny better get a Hanley Ramirez type prospect, but I think Reyes is an option if Kenny handles it right. We need a couple of players that can help us today, that can play the middle infield. I don't buy this crap of only getting mid-teir prospects for Mark, that's an awful trade. I trust in Kenny to make a good deal.

jabrch
06-17-2007, 12:59 PM
The Vulture is right, Mark is probably one of only 10 guys that can do what he does. Just because he isn't flashy that doesn't mean he isn't worth a Reyes or a Adam Dunn. In addition to that, I think if the Mets could sign him before the trade or have an agreement, they would probably part with Reyes. The Mets may have him for 4 more years at a low cost but pitching wins WS and they need.

If no Reyes, Kenny better get a Hanley Ramirez type prospect, but I think Reyes is an option if Kenny handles it right. We need a couple of players that can help us today, that can play the middle infield. I don't buy this crap of only getting mid-teir prospects for Mark, that's an awful trade. I trust in Kenny to make a good deal.

There is ZERO chance that the mets would trade Reyes for a guy who will be a FA in 3 months. They wouldn't trade Reyes for Santana, much less for Buehrle.

RockJock07
06-17-2007, 01:19 PM
The Vulture is right, Mark is probably one of only 10 guys that can do what he does. Just because he isn't flashy that doesn't mean he isn't worth a Reyes or a Adam Dunn. In addition to that, I think if the Mets could sign him before the trade or have an agreement, they would probably part with Reyes. The Mets may have him for 4 more years at a low cost but pitching wins WS and they need.

If no Reyes, Kenny better get a Hanley Ramirez type prospect, but I think Reyes is an option if Kenny handles it right. We need a couple of players that can help us today, that can play the middle infield. I don't buy this crap of only getting mid-teir prospects for Mark, that's an awful trade. I trust in Kenny to make a good deal.

If they could work out a long-term deal with Buehrle they would probably part with Reyes. All Kenny would need to say to Omar is: How much is a World Series worth to you? Kenny sells Omar on Mark, who could bring a World Series to the Mets.

Aside from prospects, what current major-leaguer would you trade Mark for?

pearso66
06-17-2007, 01:44 PM
The only way Buehrle returns next year, is if he isn't traded. I don't think any team will give up a big time prospect for a rental, they will want to get a deal worked out. If Buehrle is traded, I predict he will almost immediately sign a long term deal with that team he is traded to. I must be an idiot, because I would resign Mark. I would offer him a 4 year deal at 60 mil, with a team option for the 5th year at 18 mil. 4 guaranteed years isn't too much of a stretch over the Sox normal 3 years only deals, and they would have the option of keeping him for a 5th year if he continues to pitch well. Plus a deal like that, if he does struggle, doens't make him untradeable. Now would he accept a deal like that? He might if they negotiate during the season, but afterwords, it would probably take 5-6 years to do it. Even at that, I think I'd still sign him.

Lukin13
06-17-2007, 02:29 PM
If they could work out a long-term deal with Buehrle they would probably part with Reyes. All Kenny would need to say to Omar is: How much is a World Series worth to you? Kenny sells Omar on Mark, who could bring a World Series to the Mets.

Aside from prospects, what current major-leaguer would you trade Mark for?

Are you freaking serious????

Reyes is an MVP canidate that is dirt cheap for several more seasons.

He is the BEST leadoff hitter in baseball.

He is the BEST base stealer in the league.

He is the BEST young player in baseball.

MB, while loved in Chicago (a little too much I guess) is a top 10 LEFT HANDED starting pitcher in baseball... that only has 15 more starts left on his current contract.

Dude put the crack pipe down.

KRS1
06-17-2007, 03:38 PM
Dunn is old, and a FA next year.

Dunn we'd get in a heartbeat -


Agreed. I would be very disappointed if all we turned out with was Adam Dunn for Mark, VERY disappointed. If we were trading with Cinci (which I think is about as unlikely a situation as there gets), I'm asking for Votto, Bruce, and another prospect. Whoever gets Mark is getting a sure thing, whether they admit it in negotiations or not, that is what he is. If were dealing that, we either get high quality proven Major leaguers, or VERY high quality prospects. I'm not under the delusion that we get a proven stud like Reyes, but whomever we get would have to be pretty good and under team control for at least a few season.

soxinem1
06-17-2007, 04:59 PM
First of all, if MB wants $17 million per year, or even $15 mil/yr, no way he is coming back here. No way JR (and I agree) signs off on that one, unless it is creatively back loaded.

Someone brought that 'trade him then reacquire him' idea. When has this ever worked? Ponson? Please. BAL over paid for the guy nobody wanted. Just like Ron Belly Lard was supposed to do that with CLE last year. All he gets is a league minimum contract w/WAS.

I remember BAL doing that with Mike Bordick a few years ago. That worked out well too.

IMO, Buehrle is history. They might make one of those 'take it or leave it offers', but he is out of here if he doesn't accept.

I do agree with him wanting to go to the NL, but I'm not totally sure about STL being the only option.

At any rate, someone will pony up a good package for him now, as he can give 15-16 starts and another three or four in post season.

Let the bidding begin!

soxinem1
06-17-2007, 05:06 PM
How am I "overvaluing" Mark Buehrle? The guy is a stud. 200+ innings EVER year. The Mets can't keep pedro on the field and Glavine is almost done. They need another arm that can give them what they need. If they don't make another play for pitcher, the Padres will win the NL. Buehrle would win 21-22 games in a Met uni. With the resume that Mark has I wouldn't settle for anything less then Reyes. The Mets need him, they don't want him to go to STL, or any other NL team.

They never even made a serious bid for Zito last year. What makes everyone think they want to invest $85 million in a finesse pitcher? Sure, we like him, but hometown fans tend to exaggerate their players worth. And besides, the Mets are not in dire need of another starter, especially with the steal Oliver Perez has turned out to be.

A couple prospects and Aaron Heilman would be a great deal. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

KRS1
06-17-2007, 05:16 PM
They never even made a serious bid for Zito last year. What makes everyone think they want to invest $85 million in a finesse pitcher? Sure, we like him, but hometown fans tend to exaggerate their players worth. And besides, the Mets are not in dire need of another starter, especially with the steal Oliver Perez has turned out to be.

A couple prospects and Aaron Heilman would be a great deal. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

A 28 year old reliever with a rather unimpressive stat line in the NL, and a couple prospects for him? Those prospects better be Gomez, and Humbar or Pelfrey.

FedEx227
06-17-2007, 05:22 PM
There is ZERO chance that the mets would trade Reyes for a guy who will be a FA in 3 months. They wouldn't trade Reyes for Santana, much less for Buehrle.

Have we seriously overrated Buehrle to the fact that we believe the Mets would trade us Reyes for him? C'mon RockJock, Reyes is one of the top 5 players in the game today, top 2-3 in the NL, there is no way they're going to trade him. Absolutely no way.

soxinem1
06-17-2007, 05:26 PM
A 28 year old reliever with a rather unimpressive stat line in the NL, and a couple prospects for him? Those prospects better be Gomez, and Humbar or Pelfrey.

How's he unimpressive? His career stats as a reliever are quite solid. Other than Jenks, he is hands down better and gets outs more consistently than anyone we have.

What do you expect to get for a pitcher who is not coming back? Like other teams do not know what we know?

Some of you need to get real. The days of getting back four or five blue chip prospects or All-Star players for one or two veterans in trades are history, and those pipedream trades are not going to happen in this case.

The only pitcher to leave Chicago as a free agent (since the start of free agency) to sustain any long term success after leaving was Greg Maddux. It is a proven fact. McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, to name a few, were ALL free agent busts. And they were better pitchers.

Face reality, it's time to let go.

KRS1
06-17-2007, 05:52 PM
How's he unimpressive? His career stats as a reliever are quite solid. Other than Jenks, he is hands down better and gets outs more consistently than anyone we have.

What do you expect to get for a pitcher who is not coming back? Like other teams do not know what we know?

Some of you need to get real. The days of getting six players for two in trades are history, and those pipedream trades are not going to happen.

The only pitcher to leave Chicago as a free agent (since the start of free agency) to sustain any long term success after leaving was Greg Maddux. It is a proven fact. McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, to name a few, were ALL free agent busts. And they were better pitchers.

Face reality, it's time to let go.


Yes, they are very much mediocre. I don't care how you put it, you dont trade Mark for a freaking reliever. That would be dumb. I would honestly rather see Mark pitch out his season here than to give him up for Heilman. I'm sure 30 other teams in baseball would give up a better reliever than Heilman too. Great, stop bringing up the fact that he may be a three month rental. That should not force us into getting a crap return. Im sure if KW got a call saying, "well we cant give you much because he may be a FA at the end of the year", he'll say great you obviously dont want to improve your pitching staff now, get back to me when you get serious. To say we shouldnt get much in return for a guy who pitched a no-no this year, and with the exception of three bad months of baseball has been consistently durable and very successful, just because he may be a FA at the end of the year is really selling short the value he can have to a team trying to make a run at it all(run-on sentences, I love them). I am never one to overrate a players value. I never said we should be getting a Jose Reyes or Carlos Beltran, or even a Miguel Tejada. I said, if we give up a sure thing in Mark, we need to get either a high quality important cog already in the majors, or very high quality prospects. Mark Buehrle is not McDowell, Alvarez, or Hernandez, he is Mark Buehrle, and no team is going to say "well look at what happened to those guys almost 15 years ago." If you are going to make assumptions like that as a GM, you might as well give up your job because risk taking is a must to be successful. You are assuming that other teams who trade for him wouldnt do everything to keep him there, and also assuming that there wouldnt be an open window for negotiation when you say he will be gone after the year.

I don't see how any fan could see a reliever other than one of the best reliever's fair value for one of the best lefties in the AL, with a proven track record to boot. Mark is worth very good prospects, or high quality major leaguers, what about that assessment is either being unrealistic, or overvaluing him? Forget everything he's done in the past, and just look at what he's accomplished thus far this year. How do you see getting something more than a reliever and a couple uncertain prospects as unrealistic.

soxinem1
06-17-2007, 07:05 PM
Yes, they are very much mediocre. I don't care how you put it, you dont trade Mark for a freaking reliever. That would be dumb. I would honestly rather see Mark pitch out his season here than to give him up for Heilman. I'm sure 30 other teams in baseball would give up a better reliever than Heilman too. Great, stop bringing up the fact that he may be a three month rental. That should not force us into getting a crap return. Im sure if KW got a call saying, "well we cant give you much because he may be a FA at the end of the year", he'll say great you obviously dont want to improve your pitching staff now, get back to me when you get serious. To say we shouldnt get much in return for a guy who pitched a no-no this year, and with the exception of three bad months of baseball has been consistently durable and very successful, just because he may be a FA at the end of the year is really selling short the value he can have to a team trying to make a run at it all(run-on sentences, I love them). I am never one to overrate a players value. I never said we should be getting a Jose Reyes or Carlos Beltran, or even a Miguel Tejada. I said, if we give up a sure thing in Mark, we need to get either a high quality important cog already in the majors, or very high quality prospects. Mark Buehrle is not McDowell, Alvarez, or Hernandez, he is Mark Buehrle, and no team is going to say "well look at what happened to those guys almost 15 years ago." If you are going to make assumptions like that as a GM, you might as well give up your job because risk taking is a must to be successful. You are assuming that other teams who trade for him wouldnt do everything to keep him there, and also assuming that there wouldnt be an open window for negotiation when you say he will be gone after the year.

I don't see how any fan could see a reliever other than one of the best reliever's fair value for one of the best lefties in the AL, with a proven track record to boot. Mark is worth very good prospects, or high quality major leaguers, what about that assessment is either being unrealistic, or overvaluing him? Forget everything he's done in the past, and just look at what he's accomplished thus far this year. How do you see getting something more than a reliever and a couple uncertain prospects as unrealistic.

Get my wording correctly, please. I said Heilman and a couple prospects, not Buehrle for a reliever.

Mediocre, huh? Here's Heilman the last three seasons:

Year W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H HR BB SO ERA
2005 5 3 53 7 1 1 20 5 108.0 87 6 37 106 3.17
2006 4 5 74 0 0 0 14 0 87.0 73 5 28 73 3.62
2007 5 3 29 0 0 0 13 0 30.3 23 4 7 21 3.86

True, he's not Cy Young, but any contender would take Heilman in a second to set up the late innings, and starting pitcher-starved teams would take him to return being a starter.

If you think the market dictates huge returns for pending free agents, please refer to the Garcia to the Phillies trade.

If you want MB to leave just to get another wasted draft pick, that's your decision. I for one, want something in return. And it will happen, it's just a matter of when.

KRS1
06-17-2007, 07:28 PM
Get my wording correctly, please. I said Helman and a couple prospects, not Buehrle for a reliever.

Mediocre, huh? Here's Heilman the last three seasons:

Year W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H HR BB SO ERA
2005 5 3 53 7 1 1 20 5 108.0 87 6 37 106 3.17
2006 4 5 74 0 0 0 14 0 87.0 73 5 28 73 3.62
2007 5 3 29 0 0 0 13 0 30.3 23 4 7 21 3.86

True, he's not Cy Young, but any contender would take Heilman in a second to set up the late innings, and starting pitcher-starved teams would take him to return being a starter.

If you think the market dictates huge returns for pending free agents, please refer to the Garcia to the Phillies trade.

If you want MB to leave just to get another wasted draft pick, that's your decision. I for one, want something in return. And it will happen, it's just a matter of when.

High 3 ERA, not impressive strikeouts out of the pen, not to mention his .78 GO/AO ratio. The only reason his ERA isnt much higher is because Shea is a pitchers park and holds in a lot of deep fly balls.


As for Garcia, please refer to his dramatic loss in velocity, and the question marks that brought up, not to mention fact that he is four years older than Mark. Freddy was on the decline, Mark is still as stable as ever, and one could make the case that this is looking like it could be his best season yet.

soxinem1
06-17-2007, 07:36 PM
High 3 ERA, not impressive strikeouts out of the pen, not to mention his .78 GO/AO ratio. The only reason his ERA isnt much higher is because Shea is a pitchers park and holds in a lot of deep fly balls.


As for Garcia, please refer to his dramatic loss in velocity, and the question marks that brought up, not to mention fact that he is four years older than Mark. Freddy was on the decline, Mark is still as stable as ever, and one could make the case that this is looking like it could be his best season yet.


200K's in 225 innings is 8K's per 9 IP in Heilman's last three seasons.

Would you rather have (besides Jenks) in the current pen? Try no one.

I was no critic of Garcia being traded, but he finished strong with increased velocity.

Look, if MB wants to stay, fine. If the team offers him the opportunity and he turns it down, he can go.

And other than Konerko, I cannot recall the Sox bidding with other teams to keep a top-tier FA, especially during the tenures of the last three GM's. I don't think it's going to start now, either.

KRS1
06-17-2007, 07:48 PM
200K's in 225 innings is 8K's per 9 IP in Heilman's last three seasons.

Would you rather have (besides Jenks) in the current pen? Try no one.

I was no critic of Garcia being traded, but he finished strong with increased velocity.

Look, if MB wants to stay, fine. If the team offers him the opportunity and he turns it down, he can go.

And other than Konerko, I cannot recall the Sox bidding with other teams to keep a top-tier FA, especially during the tenures of the last three GM's. I don't think it's going to start now, either.


I'll just end with one thing. We are in no rush, or need to trade him. I'm not one who is going to say we absolutely have to get something for him via trade even if it's not equal value. I know I'm not KW, but if I was I would wait until I'm overwhelmed or at least very satisfied, because even if we are in no real need to make a trade, there are plenty of teams around the league who can benefit a hell of a lot by adding a high quality, experienced, World Series winning pitcher, and long time staff leader to complete their team to make a run at it this year.

I know I'd rather see Dye go sooner, but I'd bet we wait until he starts heating up so we dont sell too low. I have a good feeling our trade with the Dbacks may have come to fruition via talks over him. They could use him as an upgrade over Quentin, Hairston, and all the others they have tried to plug in there. A couple teams in that division could use him as an attempt to gain ground in that tight race, however bad he is struggling now.

soxtalker
06-17-2007, 09:19 PM
Get my wording correctly, please. I said Heilman and a couple prospects, not Buehrle for a reliever.

Mediocre, huh? Here's Heilman the last three seasons:

Year W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H HR BB SO ERA
2005 5 3 53 7 1 1 20 5 108.0 87 6 37 106 3.17
2006 4 5 74 0 0 0 14 0 87.0 73 5 28 73 3.62
2007 5 3 29 0 0 0 13 0 30.3 23 4 7 21 3.86

True, he's not Cy Young, but any contender would take Heilman in a second to set up the late innings, and starting pitcher-starved teams would take him to return being a starter.

If you think the market dictates huge returns for pending free agents, please refer to the Garcia to the Phillies trade.

If you want MB to leave just to get another wasted draft pick, that's your decision. I for one, want something in return. And it will happen, it's just a matter of when.

I don't understand the suggestion of Heilman. Wouldn't the Mets want to keep him for this year's run? I guess that's a general comment about any trade we make for MB. We will be trading with a contender that will need its top major league players this year. We won't. I'm guessing that we'll get better value if we're willing to take players that the other team can't use this year (but are expected to be very good in the near future).

Lukin13
06-17-2007, 09:31 PM
I don't understand the suggestion of Heilman. Wouldn't the Mets want to keep him for this year's run?


Bingo!

Pretty sure Heilman is the Mets #2 out of the pen and he is in the top 10 setup men in the league over the past 4 seasons.

The more I have thought about this today the more I think the Sox/KW/JR might be reluctant to deal....
The Sox are now a major market, big payroll team; we are not the Marlins. There are a ton of a season ticket holders these days and you don't get renewals for dealing one of your top starters on June 16th. I hope not, but the more I see fans on here posting "we gotta keep him" the more I realize the backlash that might hit if we trade him for a couple AA middle infielders.

If you made me pay that kind of money for a starter this offseason it would be Mark. BUT I am pretty sure I would spend my money on position players and try and stockpile younger/less expensive arms... and try and get lucky with a few. Starters are too fragile and inconsistent IMHO to make the kind of commitment the big dogs are getting lately.

soxtalker
06-17-2007, 09:43 PM
Bingo!

Pretty sure Heilman is the Mets #2 out of the pen and he is in the top 10 setup men in the league over the past 4 seasons.

The more I have thought about this today the more I think the Sox/KW/JR might be reluctant to deal....
The Sox are now a major market, big payroll team; we are not the Marlins. There are a ton of a season ticket holders these days and you don't get renewals for dealing one of your top starters on June 16th. I hope not, but the more I see fans on here posting "we gotta keep him" the more I realize the backlash that might hit if we trade him for a couple AA middle infielders.

If you made me pay that kind of money for a starter this offseason it would be Mark. BUT I am pretty sure I would spend my money on position players and try and stockpile younger/less expensive arms... and try and get lucky with a few. Starters are too fragile and inconsistent IMHO to make the kind of commitment the big dogs are getting lately.

Didn't the Marlins sell off a number of players? We're only talking about a couple of players here, and MB is really the only one that will cause a furor among fans. KW has done deals before that the fans haven't liked. I see all the arguments on WSI about not trading MB, and it just looks like denial / wishful thinking. Kenny can always move in a different direction, but he's been giving indications for quite awhile that he was going to let MB walk after this season.

Jjav829
06-17-2007, 10:28 PM
Back to Buehrle. If you are going to trade with anyone you ask for more then just mid-level prospects. With the Mets, Kenny should ask for Jose Reyes. The Mets need pitching to compete with the Padres in the NL, they need Buehrle to put them over to the top and therefore they can put Jorge Sosa in the bullpen. If you trade with the Reds, you ask for
Dunn who can DH for another 10+ years. Cards, ask for Molina and Wainwright and a prospect. My point is that Buehrle is the best player on the Sox and if Kenny decides to move him you ask for the bank, teams will be falling all over him at the deadline, if no one wants to give up young major-league talent, KW needs to try his damnest to re-sign him in the off-season.

I like how you went from one of the best all-around players in baseball in Reyes, to a good player with a few big flaws in Dunn, to a quality young pitcher and decent catcher. If you kept going, would the 7th hypothetical deal be like Jonny Gomes for Mark Buehrle?

Jjav829
06-17-2007, 10:34 PM
It doesn't matter what FANS throw out. It matters what owners throw out. Buehrle pitches in a much more hitter friendly park than Zito. His numbers compare very favorably to Zito in nearly every way. Short of one Cy Young 5 years ago (a season he hasn't come close to repeating since) they are nearly the same pitcher.

When he hits the FA market, I have no doubt that some combination of the the Pads, Giants, Astros, Cardinals, Mets, Dodgers, Angels, Os, Jays, Ms, Rangers, etc. will be competing with the Sox to resign Mark. He may choose to take less money to go somewhere. But he will get 5+ and 15+ from multiple teams.

Absolutely. I don't know why anyone would doubt this. Ted Lilly signed a 4-year deal averaging $10 million a year. Buehrle will have more wins and be the same age as Zito when he hits the market. Buehrle's ERA is slightly higher, and he doesn't have the Cy Young, but he did lead a team to a World Series championship. And teams are going to ignore all of that because Buehrle had a bad 2nd half to the 2006 season? Not likely. Several teams will likely be willing to offer a 5-year, $15 million per year deal.

RockJock07
06-17-2007, 10:59 PM
I like how you went from one of the best all-around players in baseball in Reyes, to a good player with a few big flaws in Dunn, to a quality young pitcher and decent catcher. If you kept going, would the 7th hypothetical deal be like Jonny Gomes for Mark Buehrle?

No, those "hypothetical deals" you are refering to are deals that fill needs. The Sox need a SS, a younger DH, bullpen help and a young catcher.

Let me make one thing clear. I don't want to trade Mark, but it's probably going to happen and if KW does then he needs to get a stud in return, not garbage prospects. I want some one who can take over at SS or someone we can add to the bullpen now. If the Sox give up Mark to the Mets, then why can't I expect a stud in return? Today pitching is valued, not position players. Kenny has a huge bargining chip right now and I think he should expect nothing less then the best from any bidding team.

My feeling is that if KW brings MB back, i'll welcome him with open arms. He was a constent before the WS and remains that way now. But i just feel that because of the minor league talent waiting in AAA/AA and Mcculloch and Poreda in the rotation by 2010 this team is looking very promising I'd be willing to part with MB for a stud player.

Hitmen77
06-17-2007, 11:07 PM
Absolutely. I don't know why anyone would doubt this. Ted Lilly signed a 4-year deal averaging $10 million a year. Buehrle will have more wins and be the same age as Zito when he hits the market. Buehrle's ERA is slightly higher, and he doesn't have the Cy Young, but he did lead a team to a World Series championship. And teams are going to ignore all of that because Buehrle had a bad 2nd half to the 2006 season? Not likely. Several teams will likely be willing to offer a 5-year, $15 million per year deal.

I would think several teams will offer him more years and more $$$ once he hits the open market. Because of this, IMO our only chance to keep Mark is to offer him something in the 5 yr/$15 mill per range before he becomes a free agent.

I know the Sox history tells us that they won't do this - but they're at a crossroads here. They need to decide what kind of team they're going to be for 2008 and beyond. One anchored by Buehrle that is trying to get back to the postseason or one that is going to sputter along in underachieving mediocrity for the foreseeable future with Javy Vazquez and a declining Jose Contreras.

If the Sox would make that kind of offer and Mark turns it down...then fine, we tried our best and someone will have to overpay for him. But to offer Buehrle only essentially the same deal that you give to Vazquez - that doesn't say much about their commitment to winning.

On the other hand, if the Sox know already that they're not going to offer anything close enough to keep Mark - then they should trade him by the deadline to at least get some talent back instead of just letting him walk for nothing in return.

Jjav829
06-17-2007, 11:19 PM
No, those "hypothetical deals" you are refering to are deals that fill needs. The Sox need a SS, a younger DH, bullpen help and a young catcher.

Let me make one thing clear. I don't want to trade Mark, but it's probably going to happen and if KW does then he needs to get a stud in return, not garbage prospects. I want some one who can take over at SS or someone we can add to the bullpen now. If the Sox give up Mark to the Mets, then why can't I expect a stud in return? Today pitching is valued, not position players. Kenny has a huge bargining chip right now and I think he should expect nothing less then the best from any bidding team.


Are you serious or just messing with us? :?: I'll bite and pretend you're serious (read: delusional).

It's Jose Reyes! He's a top 5 player in baseball. Factoring in age and price, there probably isn't a player in baseball the Mets would trade Reyes for straight up. Not Johan Santana. Not Albert Pujols. And sure as hell not Mark Buehrle. No team is giving up a stud in return for a 3-month (maybe 2-month by the time he's dealt) rental. In fact, some of these prospect packages people are putting together in discussions might not happen.

RockJock07
06-18-2007, 01:16 AM
Are you serious or just messing with us? :?: I'll bite and pretend you're serious (read: delusional).

It's Jose Reyes! He's a top 5 player in baseball. Factoring in age and price, there probably isn't a player in baseball the Mets would trade Reyes for straight up. Not Johan Santana. Not Albert Pujols. And sure as hell not Mark Buehrle. No team is giving up a stud in return for a 3-month (maybe 2-month by the time he's dealt) rental. In fact, some of these prospect packages people are putting together in discussions might not happen.

WOW, for the last time. This would only work in my eyes if they signed MB to a long-term deal.

Secondly, most of you are telling me that you don't see the Mets trading for stud pitcher if it meant giving up on Reyes? That just doesn't make sense to me. I would trade ANY player or ANY prospect to get a Santana or a Buehrle. While Buehrle isn't of the caliber of Johan, he's pretty close to a sure thing. Pitching wins rings, plain and simple, we as Sox fans should know this better then most.

Consider the Mets current rotation.
Glavine: old, high ERA, probably retires when deal is up
El Duque: old, often injured, has pitched ok (except for tonight)
John Maine: young, top 10 in ERA, solid building block
Oliver Perez: stud, top 10 in alot of areas
Jorge Sosa: good year so far, but will move to the bullpen when a starter is brought in

My point is that if the Mets want to get to the WS they need another pitcher, the Sox have a great one if they can;t resign him. Reyes for Buehrle, when you really think it out and break it down, it makes sense for both assuming we can't resign him.

Over By There
06-18-2007, 08:12 AM
Has this scenario ever, in the history of baseball, occurred where a team trades a soon to be free agent then re-signs him in the off season? I can't recall that ever happening.

I think Geoff Blum (c. 05/06) fits this bill, in addition to others that were mentioned.

kba
06-18-2007, 08:49 AM
I think Geoff Blum (c. 05/06) fits this bill, in addition to others that were mentioned.


Also Sandy Alomar, Jr. The Sox traded him to Colorado at the deadline in 2002, then re-signed him as a free agent before the 2003 season.

jabrch
06-18-2007, 09:49 AM
Reyes for Buehrle, when you really think it out and break it down, it makes sense for both assuming we can't resign him.

No it does not. The Mets won't give up 4+ years of Jose Reyes, pre FA for 3 months of Mark Buehrle. That makes no sense.

They wouldn't give up Reyes for SANTANA, much less for Buehrle.

sox1970
06-18-2007, 09:54 AM
Obviously Reyes coming to the Sox isn't going to happen.

For Buehrle--Carlos Gomez and Phillip Humber or Mike Pelfrey, you got yourself a deal.

jabrch
06-18-2007, 09:59 AM
Obviously Reyes coming to the Sox isn't going to happen.

For Buehrle--Carlos Gomez and Phillip Humber or Mike Pelfrey, you got yourself a deal.

I'd even consider a bigger deal with them and send them Dye and Buehrle. But you are right - Gomez and Martinez are their OFs we'd want. We might also be interested in Lasting M as a throw in. And the arms we'd want are Humber and Pelfrey.

RockJock07
06-18-2007, 01:49 PM
No it does not. The Mets won't give up 4+ years of Jose Reyes, pre FA for 3 months of Mark Buehrle. That makes no sense.

They wouldn't give up Reyes for SANTANA, much less for Buehrle.

then they aren't commited to winning. I would trade ANY player for Santana and Buehrle is just as much of a stud.

jabrch
06-18-2007, 02:01 PM
then they aren't commited to winning. I would trade ANY player for Santana

Then you clearly don't get the economics of baseball. You aren't trading just the players, you are trading their contracts. Acquiring Mark Buehrle means you get 3 months of him for about 10mm (annually) and then he is a FA. If you resign him, that's totally different since you have that option anyhow. Jose Reyes makes about 500K this year. He will make under 1mm next year, about 2-3mm the following year, then about 8mm and about 10mm. In each of those years you can expect at least 13mm of productivity given what other SS make who were FA. So Reyes is worth (13-.5) + (13-1) + (13-3) + (13-8) + (13-10) = 42.5mm more than what you'd be paying for him. Meanwhile, Mark is worth only a few million more than he will make for the next 3 months.

There's no GM in baseball that would give you Jose Reyes for a 3 month rent-a-player under any circumstance.


and Buehrle is just as much of a stud.

That's on the short list of least true things I have seen on WSI. There's no way you can rationally make that arguement.

FedEx227
06-18-2007, 02:04 PM
then they aren't commited to winning. I would trade ANY player for Santana and Buehrle is just as much of a stud.

Thankfully you're not running a major league baseball team and have no grasp of both the economics of baseball or the building of a team.

Jose Reyes is AMAZING, YOUNG, CHEAP, and LOCKED UP FOR YEARS. They would not under any condition or any circumstance trade him for anyone in this league. Not A-Rod, not Santana, certaintly not Buehrle.

RockJock please do yourself a favor and actually watch the guy you're comparing Buehrle too. Watch a game Santana starts, watch Jose Reyes work. The fact that you can almost justify Buehrle being equal to either of those two is a complete joke.

spiffie
06-18-2007, 03:11 PM
Thankfully you're not running a major league baseball team and have no grasp of both the economics of baseball or the building of a team.
Actually it is a shame he's not running a major league baseball team. Then Kenny Williams could make what Jim Hendry did to the Pirates look like chump change.

KRS1
06-18-2007, 03:43 PM
Well Schmidt looks like he might be a big bust for the Dodgers after another shoulder problem landed him on the DL today. They could sure use a deal pretty soon to keep up with the rest of that tight division. Im pretty convinced our best deals are in that division with how heated a race the West is going to be/already is.

102605
06-18-2007, 04:34 PM
Well Schmidt looks like he might be a big bust for the Dodgers after another shoulder problem landed him on the DL today. They could sure use a deal pretty soon to keep up with the rest of that tight division. Im pretty convinced our best deals are in that division with how heated a race the West is going to be/already is.


I'm exciting to see Dye running around in RF at a Padres game in the upcoming weeks! :smile:

Lip Man 1
06-18-2007, 06:15 PM
The Padres have pitching to deal...the Dodgers have a loaded farm system supposedly with major league ready guys in Andre Ethier, Andy LaRoche, James Loney and Chad Billingsley.

Supposedly the Dodgers really want either Troy Glaus or Miguel Cabrera though.

Lip

goon
06-18-2007, 06:29 PM
I'm exciting to see Dye running around in RF at a Padres game in the upcoming weeks! :smile:

I like Dye, if he gets traded I hope it's to a contender and he gets a decent contract next season. San Diego, the NL West seems like a good fit for some reason.

I think most people are coming to the conclusion that we should re-sign Buehrle, which seems like the best move for the organization... depending on what he is willing to sign for. Josh Fields looks good offensively, especially this past series, but has made some mistakes in the field. Getz and Richar are both good looking prospects, I like the fact they can add speed, as can Fields, but Richar also has good pop, looking at his stats. I wonder how he is defensively. There are a ton of directions KW could go for the offense, it seems difficult to determine what the organization will do.

As far as pitching, imho re-sign Buehrle...the rotation could be Buehrle, Garland and another vet. Whether that vet is Vazquez is still up in the air, but there's still a chance he could pull a 2005 Contreras and remember he's only 30. Danks and another young arm (Gio, Russell, Floyd or a player from a different organization), then either bring up some guys or trade for some bullpen help. Sisco looks good in AAA, Thornton still looks good, as does Jenks.

RockJock07
06-18-2007, 07:00 PM
We agree to disagree about the Reyes and MB. But if MB get's traded for prospects or Lastings Milledge, in my eyes, that's would be an awful, awful trade. Last thing the Sox need is another unachieveing Outfielder. I'll leave it at that, and I won't mention anything else about it.

Secondly, JD may be traded to the Padres but not for anyone on their current Major-league roster. The Padres are a lock for the world series, they aren't going to break up that pen or rotation. Prospects is all Kenny would get.

getonbckthr
06-18-2007, 07:02 PM
We agree to disagree about the Reyes and MB. But if MB get's traded for prospects or Lastings Milledge, in my eyes, that's would be an awful, awful trade. Last thing the Sox need is another unachieveing Outfielder. I'll leave it at that, and I won't mention anything else about it.

Secondly, JD may be traded to the Padres but not for anyone on their current Major-league roster. The Padres are a lock for the world series, they aren't going to break up that pen or rotation. Prospects is all Kenny would get.
You will not get an equal value veteran for Burls. It just won't happen. It wouldn't make any sense for a contender to weaken a spot to help a spot. Prospects is what you will get whether you like it ot not. Also it is the right move.

KRS1
06-18-2007, 07:11 PM
The Padres are a lock for the world series, they aren't going to break up that pen or rotation. Prospects is all Kenny would get.


You are a funny guy. A lock for the World Series eh? In a division with two very good teams are within 1.5 games of you, and it hasnt even gotten to the AS break yet? Their pitching looks very good right now, but Maddux and Wells have gotten killed outside of Petco, and their line-up isnt exactly full of world beaters. There is no such thing as a lock for the WS, and it's not like they are so overwhelmingly better than the other contenders in the NL(not even their own division).

Frontman
06-18-2007, 08:09 PM
Mark's been the only bright spot to this season. Letting him go means there's nothing of meaning to the season.

UserNameBlank
06-18-2007, 09:32 PM
You are a funny guy. A lock for the World Series eh? In a division with two very good teams are within 1.5 games of you, and it hasnt even gotten to the AS break yet? Their pitching looks very good right now, but Maddux and Wells have gotten killed outside of Petco, and their line-up isnt exactly full of world beaters. There is no such thing as a lock for the WS, and it's not like they are so overwhelmingly better than the other contenders in the NL(not even their own division).
Agreed, and no one should underestimate AZ. They should be one of the favs in the NL.

KRS1
06-18-2007, 09:53 PM
Agreed, and no one should underestimate AZ. They should be one of the favs in the NL.


I said that before the season ever began in the RJ acquisition thread I believe. Their veteran pitching can be as good as anyone in big games but have some questions to answer still, and inexperienced (although highly talented) position players are going to be an enigma going into a tough playoff race. If the Dodgers can pick up a good pitcher, they can definitely keep up with the division too.

MRM
06-18-2007, 10:56 PM
I'm all for "conspriring" with Mark to trade him to a contender, and then plot to re-sign him as a free agent. The problem is that there is no guarantee that would happen. He might win a World Series with the new team and/or find a new group of friends on the new team and decide he likes it there.

As a first step before trading him, I'd much rather have KW go back on his pledge not to negotiate during the season and get to work on a deal right now. Then, trade Dye, Contreras and Paulie to get younger players and free up cash to make a run at Ichiro this offseason.

If Mark says no to all offers from JR/KW, instead demanding that he must test the open market, then trade him. But try to work out a new deal first.

Obviously, I mean OBVIOUSLY, MB isn't making much of a difference THIS year, but you'd trade away virtually all the proven talent the team has to re-sign him and to pick up a 34 yo right fielder? If YOU don't want Contreras next year, then who exactly do you think does? Dye ain't bringing much in trade. Trading Konerko would be ridiculously stupid, at this point. You don't move a guy when he's at his lowest value.

Suzuki ain't coming to Chicago (at least not the south side) so kill that nonsense. He simply isn't the missing piece that "fixes" what ails the Sox. You don't EVER buy a 34 year old player UNLESS he's the missing piece. It would be a brain dead move and I don't believe Kenny is brain dead.

UserNameBlank
06-18-2007, 11:00 PM
Obviously, I mean OBVIOUSLY, MB isn't making much of a difference THIS year, but you'd trade away virtually all the proven talent the team has to re-sign him and to pick up a 34 yo right fielder? If YOU don't want Contreras next year, then who exactly do you think does? Dye ain't bringing much in trade. Trading Konerko would be ridiculously stupid, at this point. You don't move a guy when he's at his lowest value.

Suzuki ain't coming to Chicago (at least not the south side) so kill that nonsense. He simply isn't the missing piece that "fixes" what ails the Sox. You don't EVER buy a 34 year old player UNLESS he's the missing piece. It would be a brain dead move and I don't believe Kenny is brain dead.
A team with a chance at the playoffs that is in need of a veteran starter with big game experience?

MRM
06-18-2007, 11:01 PM
We agree to disagree about the Reyes and MB. But if MB get's traded for prospects or Lastings Milledge, in my eyes, that's would be an awful, awful trade. Last thing the Sox need is another unachieveing Outfielder. I'll leave it at that, and I won't mention anything else about it.

Secondly, JD may be traded to the Padres but not for anyone on their current Major-league roster. The Padres are a lock for the world series, they aren't going to break up that pen or rotation. Prospects is all Kenny would get.

You shouldn't mention anything else about ANYTHING if you sincerely believe the Padres are "a lock for the world series". That must be the dumbest thing I've ever heard uttered in JUNE of any baseball season.

MRM
06-18-2007, 11:07 PM
A team with a chance at the playoffs that is in need of a veteran starter with big game experience?

A veteran starter whose velocity is down, can't hit his spots, and is struggling with release points? Yeah, I'm sure contenders are falling all over themselves for that.

I hear Nolan Ryan is available, too. Probably not much difference in age, either.

palehozenychicty
06-18-2007, 11:20 PM
You shouldn't mention anything else about ANYTHING if you sincerely believe the Padres are "a lock for the world series". That must be the dumbest thing I've ever heard uttered in JUNE of any baseball season.

Indeed. The Padres?! The Padres?!. They have a nice bullpen, but c'mon..

RallyBowl
06-18-2007, 11:27 PM
I throw this tomato at anyone who wants to trade Buehrle.

:tomatoaward:threadblows:

UserNameBlank
06-18-2007, 11:35 PM
A veteran starter whose velocity is down, can't hit his spots, and is struggling with release points? Yeah, I'm sure contenders are falling all over themselves for that.

I hear Nolan Ryan is available, too. Probably not much difference in age, either.
So anyone who is not currently dominating has no value in your opinion. Well, your opinion sucks then.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2007, 11:41 PM
Tonight in the Tribune Dave Van Dyke has a story that states Mark wants a five year deal to remain with the White Sox.

Kenny is quoted in the story but doesn't say much.

As we all know, thanks to Jamie Navarro, the Sox do not give deals of longer then three seasons for pitchers.

If this story is accurate, it's hard to see Mark remaining on the South Side for very much longer.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070618soxbrite,1,1244363.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

MRM
06-19-2007, 12:08 AM
So anyone who is not currently dominating has no value in your opinion.

Nope. Anyone who isn't even good right now doesn't have value to a CONTENDER. Why would you trade for someone is struggling and expect them to help you win in the short term?

KRS1
06-19-2007, 12:12 AM
I love Kenny's attitude about not rushing, and forcing a deal. If the right offer comes across his desk, he'll give it good consideration, but he wont be giving up Mark for the whole "three month rental" package people keep spewing. What I don't like is his sometimes stubbornness to a point of detraction. I remember Mark stating his agent would send a couple proposals to the Sox (between ST and opening day I believe), and I had hope we would have reached something in that exchange, but I honestly have very little hope when it comes to us getting anything done before Mark gets to FA. It sucks but what can I do? Like I said, I'd rather have Mark pitch out this season with us, have whatever enjoyment that brings to me, and take the compensation pick, than just hand him over to a team for something lower than his true worth to a contender because as KW put it "we feel handcuffed." The same goes for Dye and Iguchi. Worse case scenario we offer them arb, which hopefully they reject as a sort of respect for the fact that they got their ring here (hey I'm idealistic, what can I say)let them walk and end up with 4 very good picks including ours.

If we can get someone like Headley or Blanks for Dye, that would be sick, but if the offers are low, just tell them we'd rather get a sandwich pick and move on.

MRM
06-19-2007, 12:14 AM
Tonight in the Tribune Dave Van Dyke has a story that states Mark wants a five year deal to remain with the White Sox.

Kenny is quoted in the story but doesn't say much.

As we all know, thanks to Jamie Navarro, the Sox do not give deals of longer then three seasons for pitchers.

If this story is accurate, it's hard to see Mark remaining on the South Side for very much longer.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070618soxbrite,1,1244363.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

Didn't need that article to come to such a conclusion, and blaming Jamie Navarro for the Sox stance is silly. HISTORY says it's just plain dumb to sign a starting pitcher for more than 4 years. As much man-love as there is for MB right now, that is no reason to give up huge years and $$$ to keep him no the south side.

BTW, How many were advocating getting rid of him after the 2nd half of last year? One great game later and he's back in the fans good graces...

UserNameBlank
06-19-2007, 12:17 AM
Nope. Anyone who isn't even good right now doesn't have value to a CONTENDER. Why would you trade for someone is struggling and expect them to help you win in the short term?
Sure, if I believed in the numbers that player put up over the last couple of years and if I put more stake in that than a couple bad starts this season. I'd also do it if I had a team like the Mets and didn't think John Maine was going to continue pitching like Cy Young. I'd do it if I ran the Mariners and 3/5 of my rotation was garbage. I'd do it if I ran a team full of young pitchers without playoff experience. It just depends on how much it costs.

MRM
06-19-2007, 12:25 AM
I love Kenny's attitude about not rushing, and forcing a deal. If the right offer comes across his desk, he'll give it good consideration, but he wont be giving up Mark for the whole "three month rental" package people keep spewing. What I don't like is his sometimes stubbornness to a point of detraction. I remember Mark stating his agent would send a couple proposals to the Sox (between ST and opening day I believe), and I had hope we would have reached something in that exchange, but I honestly have very little hope when it comes to us getting anything done before Mark gets to FA. It sucks but what can I do? Like I said, I'd rather have Mark pitch out this season with us, have whatever enjoyment that brings to me, and take the compensation pick, than just hand him over to a team for something lower than his true worth to a contender because as KW put it "we feel handcuffed." The same goes for Dye and Iguchi. Worse case scenario we offer them arb, which hopefully they reject as a sort of respect for the fact that they got their ring here (hey I'm idealistic, what can I say)let them walk and end up with 4 very good picks including ours.

If we can get someone like Headley or Blanks for Dye, that would be sick, but if the offers are low, just tell them we'd rather get a sandwich pick and move on.

The thing is fans tend to get attached to players. Tend to think there are no better options. Mark isn't among the best pitchers in the A.L., let alone MLB, this year.

Is MB worth what he'll draw on the open market? Not a chance. I'm not convinced he's even the best pitcher on the SOX staff. Neither was Ozzie, aparently. Mark started game THREE this year.

Now, would I love to have him back? Absolutely. At Zito $$$$? I don't care except where it affects the TEAM. This team has a budget. If you want me to agree to Zito $ on a $100mil budget...well...see ya, Mark.

MRM
06-19-2007, 12:33 AM
Sure, if I believed in the numbers that player put up over the last couple of years and if I put more stake in that than a couple bad starts this season. I'd also do it if I had a team like the Mets and didn't think John Maine was going to continue pitching like Cy Young. I'd do it if I ran the Mariners and 3/5 of my rotation was garbage. I'd do it if I ran a team full of young pitchers without playoff experience. It just depends on how much it costs.

Do you honestly believe GMs care either way about "the numbers that player put up over that last couple of years"?

I'm talking about what is real and you want to bring up last years stats. Guess what? Jermaine Dye was worth FAR more after last year than he is now. Why? I hope I don't have to do a power point presentation here.

Crede was incredibly clutch in '05. Why not trade him for Albert Pujols?

Insane? No more so than MOST of the nonsense proposals I've seen on this board recently.

KRS1
06-19-2007, 12:39 AM
Mark isn't among the best pitchers in the A.L., let alone MLB, this year.




I disagree with this statement a lot, but I'll just put it in a way you can't refute. He is the best pitcher available to make a team better right now. We keep bringing up market value in a negative way, yet completely ignore the fact that there is one that can work for us in the trade market.

MRM
06-19-2007, 01:35 AM
I disagree with this statement a lot, but I'll just put it in a way you can't refute. He is the best pitcher available to make a team better right now.

Not only can I refute it, I question where you get your information.

How do you know MB is available to begin with?

Which studs on losing teams do you think are NOT available?

If it's a given that players are available on teams that aren't contending at the moment then surely Santana can be had, no?

Hell, Barry Zito signed a HUGE F.A. contract to pitch for a last place team....Think he's available?

KRS1
06-19-2007, 02:42 AM
Not only can I refute it, I question where you get your information.

How do you know MB is available to begin with?

Which studs on losing teams do you think are NOT available?

If it's a given that players are available on teams that aren't contending at the moment then surely Santana can be had, no?

Hell, Barry Zito signed a HUGE F.A. contract to pitch for a last place team....Think he's available?


Nobody is going to take Zito for his deal. Santana isnt going anywhere this season, maybe next when he's an impending FA. Look at the bottom teams out of contention, and their pitchers who are impending FA's and find me one who is better and more consistent than Mark. Find ones who make sense to deal that are better than Mark. Zambozo? I doubt the Flubs feel they are out of the crappy NL central yet. You said Mark isnt one of the top pitchers in the AL this year? You need to get off whatever youre taking, because either you really dont like the guy, or you are just saying stuff for arguments sake.

You are right though, I don't know for sure who is available and who isnt, but common sense can give you a good idea. Is this whole thread not dedicated to the market for one Mr. Buehrle? It makes sense that we would move Mark if the right deal came along. It doesnt make sense to deal Johan, that's pretty simple, he's still rather cheap for this and next year. Ill go through the bottom teams and their best pitchers and we'll see if we can even find one who betters Mark, let alone one that makes sense to put on the market. Harang from Cinci? Why would they deal him with the way he is performing, and considering his very fair contract. Pittsburgh's guys are all young, and under teams control for quite some time. They want to build around them, why would they deal the ones who are doing good, and why sell low on the ones who are struggling, yet still have a lot of upside? Would the Stros deal Oswalt, perhaps if they were offered three times as much as people are talking about for Mark(except for those believing he is worth a Jose Reyes) who is having a better year in a better division not to mention the AL. St.Louis has good young guys, but none is near matching what Mark is doing, and there is no reason to trade them unless it's for a someone like Mark. The Nats have Bergmann under control for a long while, and he's had elbow trouble so why would anyone go hard after him? Same goes for Hill. Texas? NEXT. Oakland isnt out of it yet, and why would they deal Haren when they control him through 2010 on a VERY nice deal. KC, they want to, and should build around Mesche. The O's might deal Bedard for the right deal, but they have resisted some pretty strong offers for him in the past, and they have him under team control until 2010, so you'd have a hard time convincing me they changed over night. TB, NEXT. Toronto? Would they part ways with Halladay? Doubtful, very doubtful unless someone gives up the moon.

All it takes is a little common sense to determine who could be on the market. I'm not saying these guys are the only ones available, but the rest either dont make much sense to move, or just plain arent proven to be better or even as good as Mark. How about you show me a few that make sense to trade that are proven to be better than Mark?

jabrch
06-19-2007, 08:50 AM
The Padres are a lock for the world series,

HUH?

balke
06-19-2007, 08:55 AM
The thing is fans tend to get attached to players. Tend to think there are no better options. Mark isn't among the best pitchers in the A.L., let alone MLB, this year.

Is MB worth what he'll draw on the open market? Not a chance. I'm not convinced he's even the best pitcher on the SOX staff. Neither was Ozzie, aparently. Mark started game THREE this year.



Mark Buehrle had a bad season last season. A lot of pitchers have a bad season. Mark's career and play this season are the best the White Sox have. He may have started 3, but after the All-star break he'll be #1. He's a workhorse, inning eater, and is a pitcher you can build around.

Jjav829
06-19-2007, 09:29 AM
We agree to disagree about the Reyes and MB. But if MB get's traded for prospects or Lastings Milledge, in my eyes, that's would be an awful, awful trade. Last thing the Sox need is another unachieveing Outfielder. I'll leave it at that, and I won't mention anything else about it.

In the interests of accuracy, your statement should read, "I agree to disagree with the rest of the world," because you probably couldn't find another human being who would agree that Mark Buehrle is worth Jose Reyes.

Jjav829
06-19-2007, 09:43 AM
The thing is fans tend to get attached to players. Tend to think there are no better options. Mark isn't among the best pitchers in the A.L., let alone MLB, this year.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but what he is is among the best pitchers available in free agency this year and that's all that matters. Barry Zito didn't get that huge contract simply because he was one of the best pitchers in baseball. He got that huge contract because he was the best pitcher on the market. Ted Lilly and Gil Meche received their contracts based on their success relative to other starters available. When Buehrle hits the market, no one is going to confuse him for Johan Santana. Everyone realizes Santana is much better and everyone would choose Santana over Buehrle. But there's one problem; Santana isn't a free agent. So it's not a choice. It's a choice between Mark Buehrle and the rest of the free agent pitchers, most of whom aren't very good. Carlos Zambrano is the only other front-of-the-rotation type pitcher on the market. The rest of the market includes the likes of Bartolo Colon, Livan Hernandez, Jason Jennings and Carlos Silva.

Is MB worth what he'll draw on the open market? Not a chance. I'm not convinced he's even the best pitcher on the SOX staff. Neither was Ozzie, aparently. Mark started game THREE this year. First, define "worth what he'll drew on the open market," because apparently you have a different idea of "worth." Buehrle is worth whatever a team will pay him. This is how "worth" is established. There is no formula or statistic that determines exactly how much a player should make (though I'm sure statheads are working on one right now). A player's worth is largely determined by comparing their performance to the performance of other players in a given time period, and using the contracts of those players as a reference in contract talks.

Second, who on the Sox do you think is a better pitcher than Buehrle? And why?

The Immigrant
06-19-2007, 10:44 AM
In today's Tribune, Dave van Dyck offers some quotes from both Buehrle and KW on the progress of contract extension talks. The short of it is that there is none. Buehrle reportedly is looking for a 5-year deal but KW "admits there is little chance of that happening." Not exactly encouraging.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070618soxbrite,1,7311593.story?coll=chi-sportstop-hed

credefan24
06-19-2007, 10:58 AM
Someone here mentioned trading MB for Reyes? Uh, that is an absolute steal, from the Sox point of view. Although I doubt the Nye Mets (who are my favorite squadron), would ever go for it.

Also, why would Kenny tip his hand and say he needs to make a deal? wouldn't that just drive down his bargaining power? From a negotiating point of view, why not take the position that "I'll entertain trades, but nothing wows me at this time?" Seems the smart way to do it.

Now, lets take a relaxed attitude towards work.

GoSox2K3
06-19-2007, 12:28 PM
I disagree with this statement a lot, but I'll just put it in a way you can't refute. He is the best pitcher available to make a team better right now. We keep bringing up market value in a negative way, yet completely ignore the fact that there is one that can work for us in the trade market.

Oh, come on - haven't you been reading his posts? All he does here is refute and disagree.

oeo
06-19-2007, 01:10 PM
Oh, come on - haven't you been reading his posts? All he does here is refute and disagree.

He's been trollish ever since he got here.

Hitmen77
06-19-2007, 02:18 PM
Tonight in the Tribune Dave Van Dyke has a story that states Mark wants a five year deal to remain with the White Sox.

Kenny is quoted in the story but doesn't say much.

As we all know, thanks to Jamie Navarro, the Sox do not give deals of longer then three seasons for pitchers.

If this story is accurate, it's hard to see Mark remaining on the South Side for very much longer.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070618soxbrite,1,1244363.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

The article indicates that the Sox are pretty much shutting the door on a 5 year contract.

I would think they're open to a 4-yr deal because that is what they essentially committed to with Jose and Javy (one more year on the existing contract plus 3 year new contract for each). It is also essentially what they offered Mark last year when he had 1.5 seasons left to go on his current contract and they offered him a 3 yr extension.

I'm disappointed that the Sox are all but shutting the door on Buehrle because of one extra year. In a majority of the cases, I would agree to not give pitchers long term contracts. But, Buehrle should be one of those few pitchers that's an exception to the Sox rule. He's young, durable, and his pitching style is less likely to suffer a big drop off than a power pitcher. I won't be surprised at all if Buehrle is still pitching effectively 10 years from now. He'll be younger at the end of a 5 year deal than Jose Contreras was at the beginning of the Sox 4 year commitment to him. If this is all about risk, why are the Sox more worried about how a 29-yr old Buehrle will pitch in 5 years than they were before the '06 season about how a 34-yr old Contreras was going to pitch in 4 years?

This basically comes down to who is going to anchor our rotation over the next few years as we phase in our pitching prospects. Regardless, I believe the Sox are going to part ways with 2 of their veteran starting pitchers over the next 2 years. Are the Sox a team that are going to be competitive with a rotation anchored by Buehrle and Garland - as Javy and Jose are moved to make way for rookies? Or are the Sox going to build rotation around Jose and Javy as MB and Garland give way to rookies? It sounds more and more like the latter - and I can't see that kind of team being a pennant contender as Jose is fading and Javy is Javy.

But, hey - at least we won't have to pay MB $16 million for the 2012 season...which by 2012 will probably sound like a relative bargain.

UserNameBlank
06-19-2007, 02:51 PM
Do you honestly believe GMs care either way about "the numbers that player put up over that last couple of years"?

Um, yeah...

I'm talking about what is real and you want to bring up last years stats. Guess what? Jermaine Dye was worth FAR more after last year than he is now.

Yes, JD was certainly worth more at this time last year considering he was in the middle of an MVP-type season and had another year left on his deal, but that doesn't mean he isn't worth squat now. Same goes for Jose. While his value may be down from last year, he still has worth. See: defending World Champion St. Louis Cardinals' starting rotation.

Why? I hope I don't have to do a power point presentation here.

You should do a power point presentation, and you should title it "What the **** am I talking about: an insight on the inner workings of Major League Baseball by MRM."

Seriously, amuse yourself. Call the cat over. Sit him up on a chair. Make some popcorn. Have fun. Make sure you post a summary of the presentation, as well as a brief overview of the question and answer session between you and the cat, in this thread.

Crede was incredibly clutch in '05. Why not trade him for Albert Pujols?

Because unless Crede is crack, it's 3 am, and the Cards' GM is broke and on a binge, that trade doesn't happen.

Insane? No more so than MOST of the nonsense proposals I've seen on this board recently.

No, that's actually much crazier than any of the trade proposals I can remember reading here over the last 3+ years. That's even worse than the Shingo-for-Derreck Lee trade idea.

Nellie_Fox
06-19-2007, 02:59 PM
You should do a power point presentation, and you should title it "What the **** am I talking about: an insight on the inner workings of Major League Baseball by MRM."

Seriously, amuse yourself. Call the cat over. Sit him up on a chair. Make some popcorn. Have fun. Make sure you post a summary of the presentation, as well as a brief overview of the question and answer session between you and the cat, in this thread.From the WSI Code of Conduct:
Though we encourage members to engage in healthy debates, we do not condone personal attacks on members. Ideas can be disputed or challenged, but attacks on a personal level are unacceptable and if they are brought to the attention of the staff, will be dealt with accordingly. Ideas can be attacked, but individuals cannot.
In other words, knock it off.

UserNameBlank
06-19-2007, 03:01 PM
^sorry.