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View Full Version : Is Tim "Rock" Raines a Hall of Famer?


PKalltheway
06-14-2007, 09:23 PM
Here's an interesting Page 2 article about Tim Raines and whether or not he's Hall of Fame material. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/070613.

Personally, I think that he is. He's 4th all time in stolen bases, and he was, next to Rickey Henderson, the biggest stolen base threat of his day, and he was the biggest in the National League for years. What's your take?

JB98
06-14-2007, 09:32 PM
Yes, one of the best basestealers of all time.

MRM
06-14-2007, 09:46 PM
Yes, one of the best basestealers of all time.

He won't make it and probably shouldn't. Raines belongs in the hall of very good, but probably not the hall of fame (granted there are plenty in the HOF who I don't think belong there, either) His best chance will be the old-timers committee in several years. I don't see the current voters putting him on SB numbers.

Oblong
06-14-2007, 10:31 PM
Should he be? Yes.

Will he be? No.

I think he's among the most underrated players of all time. Rickey's the best at his position but Raines it not very far below him.

Brian26
06-14-2007, 10:33 PM
Close, but no cigar.

chaerulez
06-14-2007, 10:48 PM
He won't make it and probably shouldn't. Raines belongs in the hall of very good, but probably not the hall of fame (granted there are plenty in the HOF who I don't think belong there, either) His best chance will be the old-timers committee in several years. I don't see the current voters putting him on SB numbers.

It wouldn't be a crime if he got in, but I don't think he deserves it. Pearlman said that a lot of players get rewarded for having lengthy careers. I think that is what the HOF is. If Manny Ramirez retired today, he would be a first ballot HOFer, but that's because he had a few several unbelievable seasons. But someone like Rock, whose seasons were very good but not great has to sustain that for at least 15-20 seasons to get considered. Also, Pearlman loses cred saying Santo should get in.

DSpivack
06-15-2007, 12:25 AM
He was on base nearly 4,000 times. Scored 1,500 runs. Stole over 800 bases. Had 170 triples. Borderline, perhaps, but I think he belongs there.

MRM
06-15-2007, 12:59 AM
He was on base nearly 4,000 times. Scored 1,500 runs. Stole over 800 bases. Had 170 triples. Borderline, perhaps, but I think he belongs there.

He also played for 23 seasons and didn't sniff 3000 hits. For a slap hitter, that ain't getting you in. The only number that is borderline HOF is his SB, and I can't think of a single player who ever got in based solely on his ability to swipe a bag. He wasn't a great fielder and, most importantly, didn't score many runs for a 20+ year player with his skill set.

Raines isn't an HOFer IMO. And certainly won't be in the opinion of those who vote for such things.

To put this into perspective: compared to Raines, Big Frank would be an absolute sure thing, first ballot, no doubt, all-time-best selection. Yet there is plenty of speculation as to whether HE belongs.

If Frank isn't a sure thing HOFer then Tim has about as much chance as Ozzie of making it on the 1st several ballots.

StillMissOzzie
06-15-2007, 01:28 AM
I'd say no. I think the perception is that he was too "one-trick pony" to desrve the HOF, that being great at stealing bases. Not enough, IMHO.

SMO
:gulp:

EastCoastSoxFan
06-15-2007, 08:38 AM
The one thing that stands out to me the most about Raines's stint with the White Sox is that he always seemed to steal bases in the early or middle innings of lopsided games.

Hawk used to love to rave about his all-time best SB success rate, but I can distinctly remember a number of times when Raines would get on base leading off in a late inning of a close game and wouldn't even try to steal second.

It sounds like that writer was trying to make a Jim Rice-type pitch for Raines, basically trying to sell him as a HOF'er based on his "decade of (leadoff) dominance" with the Expos.
We shall see...

russ99
06-15-2007, 09:53 AM
The one thing that stands out to me the most about Raines's stint with the White Sox is that he always seemed to steal bases in the early or middle innings of lopsided games.

Hawk used to love to rave about his all-time best SB success rate, but I can distinctly remember a number of times when Raines would get on base leading off in a late inning of a close game and wouldn't even try to steal second.

It sounds like that writer was trying to make a Jim Rice-type pitch for Raines, basically trying to sell him as a HOF'er based on his "decade of (leadoff) dominance" with the Expos.
We shall see...

All three of those late 70s/early 80s Expos outfielders were exceptional, and even if it ends up going to Veteran's Committee, both Raines & Andre Dawson should get in. Warren Cromartie wasn't good enough for a long enough period of time, but he sure was good with the Expos.

If Gary (stinkin') Carter's in the Hall, these guys certainly belong there.

DSpivack
06-15-2007, 04:45 PM
He also played for 23 seasons and didn't sniff 3000 hits. For a slap hitter, that ain't getting you in. The only number that is borderline HOF is his SB, and I can't think of a single player who ever got in based solely on his ability to swipe a bag. He wasn't a great fielder and, most importantly, didn't score many runs for a 20+ year player with his skill set.

Raines isn't an HOFer IMO. And certainly won't be in the opinion of those who vote for such things.

To put this into perspective: compared to Raines, Big Frank would be an absolute sure thing, first ballot, no doubt, all-time-best selection. Yet there is plenty of speculation as to whether HE belongs.

If Frank isn't a sure thing HOFer then Tim has about as much chance as Ozzie of making it on the 1st several ballots.

So he should be penalized for walking a lot instead of a hit? Either way, you get on base. Same is true for Frank. He won't end up with 3,000 hits.

And Thomas is a first-ballot HOFer, there isn't much argument there.

Railsplitter
06-15-2007, 04:50 PM
I never considered Raines HOF material.

TornLabrum
06-15-2007, 06:38 PM
I love Tim Raines to death, but he's no HOFer.

MRM
06-15-2007, 11:29 PM
So he should be penalized for walking a lot instead of a hit? Either way, you get on base. Same is true for Frank. He won't end up with 3,000 hits.

And Thomas is a first-ballot HOFer, there isn't much argument there.

It's not like Raines was a walk machine, either. He eclipsed 90 in a season only 3 times and never drew 100. Frank eclipsed 100 walks 10 times and has a career OBP nearly 40 points higher than Raines. Frank has already drawn over 250 more walks than Raines did in 1200 fewer ABs. Bad comparison. There is nothing remarkable about any of Raines numbers outside of SB. I don't think that alone deserves a place in cooperstown.

I don't think there is much doubt Frank will make the HOF, but there is plenty of argument as to whether he is yet a slam dunk first ballot selection. 500 HRs doesn't mean near as much as it used to. While his overall numbers "should" get him in on the first, he hasn't exactly been overly friendly with the media throughout his career, either.

DSpivack
06-16-2007, 01:25 AM
It's not like Raines was a walk machine, either. He eclipsed 90 in a season only 3 times and never drew 100. Frank eclipsed 100 walks 10 times and has a career OBP nearly 40 points higher than Raines. Frank has already drawn over 250 more walks than Raines did in 1200 fewer ABs. Bad comparison. There is nothing remarkable about any of Raines numbers outside of SB. I don't think that alone deserves a place in cooperstown.

I don't think there is much doubt Frank will make the HOF, but there is plenty of argument as to whether he is yet a slam dunk first ballot selection. 500 HRs doesn't mean near as much as it used to. While his overall numbers "should" get him in on the first, he hasn't exactly been overly friendly with the media throughout his career, either.

Ty Cobb and Ted Williams weren't overly friendly, either. Thomas is a first-ballot HOFer, I don't see any questions about it.

And, no, Raines did not walk as much as Thomas, but a .380 OBP is pretty high, especially considering he wasn't a .300 hitter. Like I said, a borderline HOFer.

DrewSox56
06-16-2007, 01:31 AM
No chance.

hose
06-16-2007, 08:49 AM
Tim Raines HoF......nope.

eastchicagosoxfan
06-16-2007, 11:02 AM
If one uses guys like Chick Hafey, Jim Bottomley, Dave Bancroft, Lloyd Waner, Jesse Haines, and several other VeteranCommitte picks to define a minimum HOF'er, than sure, Raines belongs. But so do Amos Otis, Al Oliver, Bill Buckner, and several others. The selections by the Baseball Writers since 1990 :
Gwynn
Ripken
Sutter
Boggs
sandberg
Eckersly
Molitor
Carter
Murray
Ozzie Smith
Puckett
Winfield
Fisk
Perez
Brett
Ryan
Yount
Sutton
Phil Niekro
Schmidt
Carlton
Jackson
Fingers
Seaver
Carew
Jenkins
Perry
Morgan
Palmer

The outfielders of the group:
Reggie Jackson
Dave Winfield
Kirby Puckett
Tony Gwynn

I think Raines is a step below each of those guys.

MISoxfan
06-17-2007, 12:31 AM
To put this into perspective: compared to Raines, Big Frank would be an absolute sure thing, first ballot, no doubt, all-time-best selection. Yet there is plenty of speculation as to whether HE belongs.

If Frank isn't a sure thing HOFer then Tim has about as much chance as Ozzie of making it on the 1st several ballots.

I don't think Frank makes a good comparison. If Frank were to right now, but played first for his entire career and didn't have his hometown media working against him, he would be 1st ballot with no questions asked.

I think Raines is borderline.

MRM
06-17-2007, 05:35 AM
Like I said, a borderline HOFer.

Actually thats NOT what you said. You said he belongs.

TheVulture
06-17-2007, 02:06 PM
If Rickey Henderson never picked up a pair of spikes, this wouldn't even be a question - Raines would be a shoo-in. So, yes.

soxinem1
06-17-2007, 08:44 PM
While it might give more appreciation to the fast base stealers of the past who were ignored or snubbed, I cannot see him making it, and I don't think he belongs in either.

Now if he played his entire career with the BOS or NYY, the media in either town would have had him in last year!