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View Full Version : Kenny Williams odds of going "against" conventional wisdom???


Frontman
06-13-2007, 09:40 PM
It seems its time to talk trading some of our FA's and start the rebuilding process. All I hear is that Mark Buehrle would fetch us the most in a trade.

Now, what are the odds that Kenny goes against that philosophy and builds AROUND Mark, versus using him to get possible replacements for Pods/Dye/Iguchi/Uribe/Crede?

I really like Mark, and my simple way of looking at it is "If Mark's worth the most out of these guys, keep him and dump the rest."

veeter
06-13-2007, 09:46 PM
I agree, I agree, I agree. Re-sign Mark. Dump Dye, Macowiak, Cintron and Thome at the break. (I think Thome for sure would be wanted.) If we keep the rotation intact, the Sox could be right back in the mix in a hurry. The rest of this season should be devoted to seeing Fields, Owens, Andy G. and Terrerro play. Later bring up Anderson and Sweeney and mix them all in. It's time to re-build fellas.

DickAllen72
06-13-2007, 09:57 PM
I hope KW/JR and the Sox surprise us and make two big FA signings for 2008: Mark Buehrle and Carlos Zambrano.

It will take huge money and long term deals, thus going against the Sox long standing policy for pitchers, but they are both front line pitchers and they are both young and have so far proven to be durable.

Sure it's a risk, but you build around starting pitching. This would allow the Sox to trade Contreras and have a starting rotation of Buehrle, Zambrano, Garland, Danks, and Vazquez. Looks good to me.

On the offensive side build the lineup around Thome DH fourth and Konerko 1B fifth. Keep Fields at 3B and A.J. at Catcher. The other five positions are what Kenny will have to fill with younger players obtained in trades or maybe mid tier FA's like Aaron Rowand.

In the pen, build around Jenks and Logan. Everyone else is expendable. Maybe a couple of our highly touted starting pitching prospects can come up and help in the pen or be used in trades to obtain bullpen help along with position players needed.

It's going to be a big job, but it can be done.

Brian26
06-13-2007, 10:00 PM
I really like Mark, and my simple way of looking at it is "If Mark's worth the most out of these guys, keep him and dump the rest."

Buehrle's the guy that has to get signed. I will understand if Dye isn't re-signed or is even traded before the deadline because he's showing signs of slowing down now. Iguchi's been a great, clutch, steady player, but I think he can be replaced. Buehrle's a franchise player that should wear a Sox uniform for the rest of his career.

Daver
06-13-2007, 10:01 PM
I agree, I agree, I agree. Re-sign Mark. Dump Dye, Macowiak, Cintron and Thome at the break.

The Sox could get more for Mark than they can get for all the rest as a group, pitching is the most valuable commodity there is.

aryzner
06-13-2007, 10:04 PM
I am with the "keep Mark Buerhle" crowd here.

I would rather see someone like Dye/Thome/Cintron/Iguchi go as people have already said in this thread.

getonbckthr
06-13-2007, 10:05 PM
Whats wrong with trading Burls and trying to sign him to a reasonable offer come November? Tell him point blank we'll send you somewhere to win then you come back here.

oeo
06-13-2007, 10:06 PM
It seems its time to talk trading some of our FA's and start the rebuilding process. All I hear is that Mark Buehrle would fetch us the most in a trade.

Now, what are the odds that Kenny goes against that philosophy and builds AROUND Mark, versus using him to get possible replacements for Pods/Dye/Iguchi/Uribe/Crede?

I really like Mark, and my simple way of looking at it is "If Mark's worth the most out of these guys, keep him and dump the rest."

I can't believe some of you want to go through a complete rebuilding process. I'm not against getting some young guys in here, but I am against blowing up the whole team and basically starting over (and I think after realizing we would have to go through 3 or 4 terrible seasons, everyone would agree). With our current rotation (and guys coming up), it's time to win; re-tool, but don't rebuild.

Brian26
06-13-2007, 10:07 PM
On the offensive side build the lineup around Thome DH fourth and Konerko 1B fifth.

I like Thome a lot, but he's in a stage of his career where I think it's hard to say you should build around him.

Brian26
06-13-2007, 10:08 PM
Whats wrong with trading Burls and trying to sign him to a reasonable offer come November? Tell him point blank we'll send you somewhere to win then you come back here.

Has that ever worked in pro sports? I'm trying to think of one example of that actually happening.

itsnotrequired
06-13-2007, 10:08 PM
Whats wrong with trading Burls and trying to sign him to a reasonable offer come November? Tell him point blank we'll send you somewhere to win then you come back here.

:?:

oeo
06-13-2007, 10:10 PM
Has that ever worked in pro sports? I'm trying to think of one example of that actually happening.

Geoff Blum. :tongue:

Grzegorz
06-13-2007, 10:10 PM
Whats wrong with trading Burls and trying to sign him to a reasonable offer come November? Tell him point blank we'll send you somewhere to win then you come back here.

Trading Buehrle creates a hole in the starting staff. As Daver says: "pitching is the most valuable commodity there is". Try to sign Mark; move the others: Dye, Thome, etc...

getonbckthr
06-13-2007, 10:12 PM
:?:
Would it be more appropriate to say GETONBCKHR?

Brian26
06-13-2007, 10:19 PM
Geoff Blum. :tongue:

Right under our noses!

MRM
06-13-2007, 10:24 PM
The Sox could get more for Mark than they can get for all the rest as a group, pitching is the most valuable commodity there is.

True but anyone trading for Mark is only getting him for half a season. He's not going to bring back anywhere near as much as some in here seem to think.

TomParrish79
06-13-2007, 10:27 PM
Buehrle is my favorite Sox player but i think everyone knows that he will be dealt soon. I hope thats not the case but I dont see Kenny keeping him.

Unfortunately all we can do now is sit and wonder which start is Mark's last one in our uniform.

Brian26
06-13-2007, 10:31 PM
I think the Sox could get a lot for him (but I hope they keep him). He's coming off the no-hitter and the World Series championship less than two years ago. He's a proven commodity.

Look at what teams got for Randy Johnson and Bartolo Colon at the deadline in years past:

Traded by Seattle Mariners (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1998/TM_SEA1998.htm) to Houston Astros (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1998/TM_HOU1998.htm) in exchange for Freddy Garcia (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/G/Pgarcf002.htm), Carlos Guillen (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/G/Pguilc001.htm) and a player to be named later (July 31, 1998 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1998/07311998.htm)); Seattle Mariners (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1998/TM_SEA1998.htm) received John Halama (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/H/Phalaj001.htm) (October 1, 1998 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1998/10011998.htm)).

Traded by Cleveland Indians (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2002/TM_CLE2002.htm) with Tim Drew (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/D/Pdrewt001.htm) to Montreal Expos (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2002/TM_MON2002.htm) in exchange for Lee Stevens (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/S/Pstevl001.htm), Brandon Phillips (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/P/Pphilb001.htm), Cliff Lee (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/L/Plee-c003.htm) and Grady Sizemore (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/S/Psizeg001.htm) (June 27, 2002 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2002/06272002.htm)).

Noneck
06-13-2007, 10:31 PM
I agree, I agree, I agree. Re-sign Mark. Dump Dye, Macowiak, Cintron and Thome at the break. (I think Thome for sure would be wanted.) If we keep the rotation intact, the Sox could be right back in the mix in a hurry. The rest of this season should be devoted to seeing Fields, Owens, Andy G. and Terrerro play. Later bring up Anderson and Sweeney and mix them all in. It's time to re-build fellas.


Thome wanted? Whats he going to making next year? 15m or more. How many more years does he have on his contract? A couple at least. For a injury prone platoon DH? (Look at his stats for last and this year vs. lefties) Unless the dump includes a salary pickup, he is worth a bag of beans.

Frater Perdurabo
06-13-2007, 10:32 PM
The Sox could get more for Mark than they can get for all the rest as a group, pitching is the most valuable commodity there is.

Since Buehrle will be a free agent this November, wouldn't Paul Konerko fetch more in a trade, since he's signed through 2010?

DickAllen72
06-13-2007, 10:34 PM
I like Thome a lot, but he's in a stage of his career where I think it's hard to say you should build around him.
You're correct.

What I mean is that since he has a full no-trade clause the Sox probably won't be able trade him anyway, and so for next year you might as well anchor your lineup around him and Konerko while filling out the rest of the lineup with younger, faster and more athletic players.

Looking at the 2007 opening day lineup, it's hard to see too many players other than Konerko and Thome that you could say are very likely to be here in 2008.

delben91
06-13-2007, 10:34 PM
Kenny likely has a better idea of how to build a baseball team than I do (but perhaps he doesn't have a better idea than most of the posters on here).

I maintain my trust in him, mainly because all the trades he's made (or at least the vast majority), make a lot of sense to me. The results in '06 and '07 may not have measured up, but his plan made sense to me at the time.

Do what you think is right KW.

delben91
06-13-2007, 10:35 PM
Looking at the 2007 opening day lineup, it's hard to see too many players other than Konerko and Thome that you could say are very likely to be here in 2008.

I imagine AJ will still be here too. But I understand your point.

soxtalker
06-13-2007, 10:35 PM
It seems its time to talk trading some of our FA's and start the rebuilding process. All I hear is that Mark Buehrle would fetch us the most in a trade.

Now, what are the odds that Kenny goes against that philosophy and builds AROUND Mark, versus using him to get possible replacements for Pods/Dye/Iguchi/Uribe/Crede?

I really like Mark, and my simple way of looking at it is "If Mark's worth the most out of these guys, keep him and dump the rest."

I think that the odds of NOT trading Mark are extremely low. It would be popular on WSI, as most of us really are attached to MB. But KW has given us plenty of warning by saying publicly that it is in the best if MB finds his market value after the season. And he said that well before the Sox went into free fall.

Daver
06-13-2007, 10:38 PM
Since Buehrle will be a free agent this November, wouldn't Paul Konerko fetch more in a trade, since he's signed through 2010?

Teams are lining up to trade for slow first basemen that are hitting .238 and are signed for 15 mil a year for three more years.

itsnotrequired
06-13-2007, 10:40 PM
Teams are lining up to trade for slow first basemen that are hitting .238 and are signed for 15 mil a year for three more years.

$12 million a year. Put down the cheap ammo.

:redneck

Tragg
06-13-2007, 10:40 PM
True but anyone trading for Mark is only getting him for half a season. He's not going to bring back anywhere near as much as some in here seem to think.

We gave up a starting catcher 1 elite prospect and 1 top prospect for a pitcher in a walk year who was at least 1 level below MB. The prospects were counterfeit but the Mariners didn't know that.
The Brewers got several decent players for the let of Lee.
MB could be a difference maker - easily - for a team.

I don't think the Cards want to trade, but that guy who runs the blog is right - you put MB on that team, they are right there in that crud division.

Frater Perdurabo
06-13-2007, 10:42 PM
Teams are lining up to trade for slow first basemen that are hitting .238 and are signed for 15 mil a year for three more years.

I thought it was $12 million a year, and he is heating up of late... :redneck

I just think that money would be best invested in starting pitching - as you say (and I agree), "the most valuable commodity in baseball."

Trade Paulie, get what you can (and I think a good package could be had), and then put the savings into Buehrle.

StillMissOzzie
06-13-2007, 10:42 PM
I hope KW/JR and the Sox surprise us and make two big FA signings for 2008: Mark Buehrle and Carlos Zambrano.


I think that deep pink is required for that post. While I think that signing EITHER is a pipe dream at the moment, signing BOTH?

I think that MB and JD are both gone, but KW is probably waiting for the market to shake out between the contenders and pretenders, especially if it creates a bidding war. I am not expecting much for JD, but MB should bring back a nice package.

And trading MB does not preclude the Sox from re-signing him next year. Maybe he'll still honor that Sox right to match all offers, although I truly believe that MB will get an offer where JR/KW just wish him good luck and thanks for 2005.

SMO
:gulp:

Flight #24
06-13-2007, 10:50 PM
I thought it was $12 million a year, and he is heating up of late... :redneck

I just think that money would be best invested in starting pitching - as you say (and I agree), "the most valuable commodity in baseball."

Trade Paulie, get what you can (and I think a good package could be had), and then put the savings into Buehrle.

Normally I'd agree with you. The only problem is that the rotation is both the only spot where the Sox are currently good and the only slot where they're deep in the minors. There is a ridiculous dearth of position players, and any "help" that's pending is coming in the form of Anderson (Ozzie already seems to have decided against him), Sweeney (seems to be on his way to Anderson-status), Owens, and Fields. For '08, that's it.

And ponying up big bucks to Buehrle means you can't hit the FA market for a prime hitter or 2. At least if you keep your hitters and try to add more, there's a hope of success if one of Gio/Floyd/Haeger/Broadway/Russell pan out.

DickAllen72
06-13-2007, 10:57 PM
I imagine AJ will still be here too. But I understand your point.
Yes, A.J. stays.

DickAllen72
06-13-2007, 11:01 PM
I think that deep pink is required for that post. While I think that signing EITHER is a pipe dream at the moment, signing BOTH?

Yeah, I don't expect them to even try to sign Zambrano and I'll be pleasantly surprised if they sign Buehrle. But I hope they try to sign them both, providing of course Zambrano pitches well for the rest of the season and stays healthy.

JB98
06-13-2007, 11:08 PM
Yes, A.J. stays.

No question about that. Of all the position players, I would declare AJ the least likely to be traded. We had a lot of years through the late 90s and the early part of this decade where catcher was a gaping hole. Guys who can handle the position for 130 games and be effective are hard to find. Keep Thome, Konerko, AJ and probably Iguchi. Get younger and more athletic at other positions.

Sargeant79
06-13-2007, 11:19 PM
No question about that. Of all the position players, I would declare AJ the least likely to be traded. We had a lot of years through the late 90s and the early part of this decade where catcher was a gaping hole. Guys who can handle the position for 130 games and be effective are hard to find. Keep Thome, Konerko, AJ and probably Iguchi. Get younger and more athletic at other positions.

Not to mention the fact that everyone else in the league hates him.

ozzie is god
06-13-2007, 11:25 PM
Has that ever worked in pro sports? I'm trying to think of one example of that actually happening.

Kenny Lofton.

JB98
06-13-2007, 11:28 PM
Kenny Lofton.

It's not a baseball example, but I'm pretty sure the St. Louis Blues traded Doug Weight to the Carolina Hurricanes, then signed him back the next offseason.

areilly
06-13-2007, 11:29 PM
It's a nice idea, but why does everyone assume Buerhle actually wants to stay with the Sox?

jdm2662
06-13-2007, 11:30 PM
Has that ever worked in pro sports? I'm trying to think of one example of that actually happening.

Ricky Henderson.

seventyseven
06-13-2007, 11:36 PM
Has that ever worked in pro sports? I'm trying to think of one example of that actually happening.

The St. Louis Blues did that with Doug Weight. He went to Carolina for 3 months, won the Cup, then re-signed with the Blues in the offseason.

But that's pretty rare, I agree.

JB98
06-13-2007, 11:38 PM
It's a nice idea, but why does everyone assume Buerhle actually wants to stay with the Sox?

If the money is there, he will stay. If it is not, he will leave. The cold hard cash is almost always the deciding factor.

itsnotrequired
06-13-2007, 11:40 PM
If the money is there, he will stay. If it is not, he will leave. The cold hard cash is almost always the deciding factor.

:farmer

"Even when it isn't about the money, it's about the money."

JB98
06-13-2007, 11:44 PM
:farmer

"Even when it isn't about the mony, it's about the money."


I always hate it when athletes say it isn't about money. Why shouldn't it be about money? I make decisions based on money all the time. We all do.

oeo
06-13-2007, 11:44 PM
True but anyone trading for Mark is only getting him for half a season. He's not going to bring back anywhere near as much as some in here seem to think.

Guys are traded for good value all the time as only half-year rentals. We could get a lot for Buehrle, I hope we try re-signing him instead.

itsnotrequired
06-13-2007, 11:47 PM
I always hate it when athletes say it isn't about money. Why shouldn't it be about money? I make decisions based on money all the time. We all do.

:farmer

"St. Rita"

Jjav829
06-13-2007, 11:54 PM
It seems its time to talk trading some of our FA's and start the rebuilding process. All I hear is that Mark Buehrle would fetch us the most in a trade.

Now, what are the odds that Kenny goes against that philosophy and builds AROUND Mark, versus using him to get possible replacements for Pods/Dye/Iguchi/Uribe/Crede?

I really like Mark, and my simple way of looking at it is "If Mark's worth the most out of these guys, keep him and dump the rest."

The logical flaw there, however, is that one player doesn't make quite the impact in baseball. It's not like saying, "Kobe's worth the most, so dump everyone else and keep him."

The big issue, and perhaps the deciding factor in trading Buehrle, is how else to improve the team. Yes, on the surface it sounds nice to say, "Keep Buehrle, get rid of the lesser players and improve those positions." The problem is that it's going to be difficult to replace all those players. Who else currently has any trade value on this team?

Crede - He's on the DL and out for the year. Any trade value he might have had to a contender is gone. And his value after the season won't be that much higher because fews teams are going to give up anything worthwhile for a player coming off of back surgery.
Uribe - His value is minimal.
Pods - Ditto. We're not going to get much help in return for Pods.
Dye - Out of everyone you listed, he probably has the highest value, but it's still not that high. Dye could probably bring us a decent prospect in return, but certainly not much in the way of quantity.
Iguchi - Ehh. That about sums up Iguchi. Not much value here. Solid player, probably more valuable to us.

About the only other player on this team that could potentially bring back some decent help is Thome, but even that's questionable. He's older and pretty much limited to DH'ing full-time, wiping out one league of potential trading partners.

Buehrle makes the most sense, business wise. From an emotional standpoint, sure, we'd all love to see him stick around in a White Sox uniform and finish his career here, leading us to a few more World Series titles. But from a business standpoint, he's a free agent after the season and, if Zito's contract is any sort of an indication, is in line for a pretty big payday. Buehrle would probably be the best pitcher available to contenders at the deadline. He's the one guy on this team who could potentially bring us back 2-3 good prospects. Without that move, we're limited to hoping our current prospects pan out and dishing out large contracts in free agency.

DickAllen72
06-13-2007, 11:56 PM
If the money is there, he will stay. If it is not, he will leave. The cold hard cash is almost always the deciding factor.
Correct.

Unfortunately, because the Sox are so thin on quality minor league prospects, they are now in the position of having to spend a lot of money, I'm talking top two or three payroll type money, if they want to be legitimate contenders in 2008. Unless of course KW can pull off some highway robbery for guys like Buehrle, and Dye and get Thome and Contreras to waive their no-trade clauses and get a haul for them as well. I don't see that happening.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 12:01 AM
About the only other player on this team that could potentially bring back some decent help is Thome, but even that's questionable. He's older and pretty much limited to DH'ing full-time, wiping out one league of potential trading partners.
If Thome would waive his no-trade clause the Sox should be able to get some good value in return from the Angels.

Buehrle makes the most sense, business wise. From an emotional standpoint, sure, we'd all love to see him stick around in a White Sox uniform and finish his career here, leading us to a few more World Series titles. But from a business standpoint, he's a free agent after the season and, if Zito's contract is any sort of an indication, is in line for a pretty big payday. Buehrle would probably be the best pitcher available to contenders at the deadline. He's the one guy on this team who could potentially bring us back 2-3 good prospects. Without that move, we're limited to hoping our current prospects pan out and dishing out large contracts in free agency.So true, and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for our current prospects to pan out.

Brian26
06-14-2007, 12:09 AM
Kenny Lofton.

Are you refering to him going from Cleveland to the Braves and then back to Cleveland? The only difference is that he played an entire season with the Braves and wasn't just traded at the deadline.

Traded by Cleveland Indians (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1997/TM_CLE1997.htm) with Alan Embree (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/E/Pembra001.htm) to Atlanta Braves (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1997/TM_ATL1997.htm) in exchange for
Marquis Grissom (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/G/Pgrism001.htm) and David Justice (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/J/Pjustd001.htm) (March 25, 1997 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1997/03251997.htm)).

Granted free agency (October 28, 1997 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1997/10281997.htm)).

Signed by Cleveland Indians (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1997/TM_CLE1997.htm) (December 8, 1997 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1997/12081997.htm)).

Frontman
06-14-2007, 12:34 AM
Well, as some said, moving MB makes good biz sense. However, I think it makes ever better biz sense to keep him.

Yes, one player cannot make the difference in the standings, but he can make a difference in attendance numbers. As many have pointed out Mark is very popular with our fanbase. Mark in a Sox uniform? Still keeps putting our rears in the seats, and especially gets us in front of our TV's. Same with Paulie (although he's frustratin' the malarky out of all of us) and same with AJ (which I agree, I don't see him going anywhere anytime soon. He might drive Ozzie crazy at times, but we know that position is so vital for the team. So-so catching gets you results like Toby Hall (nice guy, but nowhere near the player AJ is.))

As they rebuild, smart Sox fans know it takes time and a bit of luck to get it all going in the right direction again. If we have fan favorites to root for, it makes it an easier pill to swallow. Having *some* of our favorites from the 2005 team as they begin to rebuild the rest at least gives the newer fans still interested in coming out.

And if pitching is such a commodity, why give away one of the four pitchers, both starting and relief, that we have half a hope of him doing well? (Garland, Mark, Jenks, and possibly Danks as he matures being the four) The rest of the pitching staff, can you honestly say with the game on the line, you'd want any of the other guys on the mound over those 4 guys? Yes, we could get maybe 2 key players for Mark, but in the end; will those guys bring in the amount of solid innings and games that Buehrle brings to the team over the course of a season?

And if starting lefty pitching is good, we already have two out of the five being southpaws. I would think we'd try to keep that together.

Like many have said, I trust KW to do what he thinks is best for the Sox to get back to the top of the division and into the playoffs. And yeah, if Mark goes, I'll be sad (he is afterall, my kid's favorite pitcher. Jim "Tony" (my son's first name) is his favorite batter.) but I'd understand the decision to move him IF we get solid sure-fire talent in return. I'd hate to see Mark moved for guys like Gavin Floyd. (How bad is this kid in AAA, with all our pitching problems, that we don't see him moved to the pen on the Major League team?)

Nellie_Fox
06-14-2007, 12:57 AM
Not to mention the fact that everyone else in the league hates him.
:tealpolice:
:tealtutor:

soxfanreggie
06-14-2007, 01:04 AM
I think the Sox are very stubborn in the contracts they give pitchers. I would think if they ever would go back on there "not more than 4 years" deal that it would be with MB. Maybe you have to sign him for 5 or 6 years when you only want 4 or think he'll only give you 4, but it's a risk that we should be willing to consider. We are going to have a tough time bringing good pitchers in if we have a reputation for not giving LT deals.

mmmmmbeeer
06-14-2007, 01:20 AM
There's no such thing as retooling on the fly. I can only think of two teams that have been successful: Atlanta and Oakland. KW is a good GM, but it takes a masterful GM and a ton of luck to be able to sustain success over the long term.

MB has to be dealt. John Danks was acquired, imo, to replace MB. We've seen that Danks has the talent and mental makeup to become a rock in our rotation for awhile, thus making MB expendable. Our ml system is semi-stacked with pitchers; young, cheap pitching. MB has the potential to net us one or two of the top positional prospects that we need so badly.

I don't see Thome getting dealt. JD is as good as gone, not sure how much of a market there is for Gooch. In other words, as mentioned earlier, we have to trade the guy who holds some value being our other players just aren't peforming as impact players that other franchises will overpay for.

There's another guy who holds a TON of value right now that will serve no purpose on a losing team...Bobby Jenks. He's young, cheap, effective, and is currently pitching about 4 innings a month on a lousy team. We'd get more out of dealing Jenks than we would MB, and that's saying something. Some have mentioned "building around Jenks" but it's going to take 3-4 years to rebuild. By that time Jenks will either throw out his arm or become very expensive. Now is the time to deal him. If KW learned anything from the Crede situation, it should be to not ignore an injury history and sell high before the injuries hit.

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-14-2007, 02:02 AM
I hope KW/JR and the Sox surprise us and make two big FA signings for 2008: Mark Buehrle and Carlos Zambrano.

With A.J. Pierzynski on this team? The would have a fist fight every week.

I do think Mark will be returning though.

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-14-2007, 02:08 AM
Well, as some said, moving MB makes good biz sense. However, I think it makes ever better biz sense to keep him.

Yes, one player cannot make the difference in the standings, but he can make a difference in attendance numbers. As many have pointed out Mark is very popular with our fanbase. Mark in a Sox uniform? Still keeps putting our rears in the seats, and especially gets us in front of our TV's. Same with Paulie (although he's frustratin' the malarky out of all of us) and same with AJ (which I agree, I don't see him going anywhere anytime soon. He might drive Ozzie crazy at times, but we know that position is so vital for the team. So-so catching gets you results like Toby Hall (nice guy, but nowhere near the player AJ is.))

As they rebuild, smart Sox fans know it takes time and a bit of luck to get it all going in the right direction again. If we have fan favorites to root for, it makes it an easier pill to swallow. Having *some* of our favorites from the 2005 team as they begin to rebuild the rest at least gives the newer fans still interested in coming out.

And if pitching is such a commodity, why give away one of the four pitchers, both starting and relief, that we have half a hope of him doing well? (Garland, Mark, Jenks, and possibly Danks as he matures being the four) The rest of the pitching staff, can you honestly say with the game on the line, you'd want any of the other guys on the mound over those 4 guys? Yes, we could get maybe 2 key players for Mark, but in the end; will those guys bring in the amount of solid innings and games that Buehrle brings to the team over the course of a season?

And if starting lefty pitching is good, we already have two out of the five being southpaws. I would think we'd try to keep that together.

Like many have said, I trust KW to do what he thinks is best for the Sox to get back to the top of the division and into the playoffs. And yeah, if Mark goes, I'll be sad (he is afterall, my kid's favorite pitcher. Jim "Tony" (my son's first name) is his favorite batter.) but I'd understand the decision to move him IF we get solid sure-fire talent in return. I'd hate to see Mark moved for guys like Gavin Floyd. (How bad is this kid in AAA, with all our pitching problems, that we don't see him moved to the pen on the Major League team?)

That's well put. It would be pointless to trade Mark for players that can't be counted on.

WhiteSox5187
06-14-2007, 02:27 AM
That's well put. It would be pointless to trade Mark for players that can't be counted on.
There is no such thing as can't miss prospect and I don't think that KW or Ozzie have the patience to go through a whole rebuilding thing. So if we're going to trade Buerhle it will be for at least one major leaguer and a couple of other guys in the high minors. I still think it is foolish to trade Buerhle. This team can still be good for 2008 with the right couple of moves. Buerhle and Garland are really two guys you want to build a rotation around. Constantly average 13+ wins with 200+ innings and are never on the DL? Yea, I'd want guys like that around for a looong time. It will be interesting to see the moves that Kenny makes though. I think JD is as good as gone. But Buerhle is going to be harder to pull away from us, even if KW doesn't like him, I know JR looves him.

Brian26
06-14-2007, 08:10 AM
I think the Sox are very stubborn in the contracts they give pitchers.

Moreso than any other pitcher during the Reinsdorf era, they have to make an exception for Buehrle. Even McDowell in his prime hasn't accomplished what Buehrle has. Alex Fernandez, Alvarez, Bere, etc aren't even close to comparison.

Hitmen77
06-14-2007, 10:26 AM
Whats wrong with trading Burls and trying to sign him to a reasonable offer come November? Tell him point blank we'll send you somewhere to win then you come back here.

I think that deep pink is required for that post. While I think that signing EITHER is a pipe dream at the moment, signing BOTH?

I think that MB and JD are both gone, but KW is probably waiting for the market to shake out between the contenders and pretenders, especially if it creates a bidding war. I am not expecting much for JD, but MB should bring back a nice package.

And trading MB does not preclude the Sox from re-signing him next year. Maybe he'll still honor that Sox right to match all offers, although I truly believe that MB will get an offer where JR/KW just wish him good luck and thanks for 2005.

SMO
:gulp:

As tempting as trading Buehrle and then getting him back as a FA sounds, the chances of pulling that off are very, very slim.

The problem is that the only real chance the Sox have to keep Mark is if they come to an agreement after the season before he hits the open market. During this time, the Sox could still offer MB a contract that, while expensive, isn't stupidly expensive and he could very well accept. However, once he hits the open market - FORGET ABOUT IT - at least one team out there (if not more) are going to offer him some stupidly insane long term deal. Once that happens, there is no way in hell the Sox will match it and there is no way Mark will give the Sox that much of a discount.

Hitmen77
06-14-2007, 10:41 AM
Normally I'd agree with you. The only problem is that the rotation is both the only spot where the Sox are currently good and the only slot where they're deep in the minors. There is a ridiculous dearth of position players, and any "help" that's pending is coming in the form of Anderson (Ozzie already seems to have decided against him), Sweeney (seems to be on his way to Anderson-status), Owens, and Fields. For '08, that's it.

And ponying up big bucks to Buehrle means you can't hit the FA market for a prime hitter or 2. At least if you keep your hitters and try to add more, there's a hope of success if one of Gio/Floyd/Haeger/Broadway/Russell pan out.

If the Sox sign Buehrle, I think they will most definitely trade Contreras, Vazquez or Garland.

How about if the Sox are able to sign Buehrle for $16 million/year (a $7 million raise) and then turn around and trade Javy and his $12 million/year contract for some magic beans? :redneck Net savings $5 million. Or the Sox could deal Contreras and his $10 million salary.

I'd feel alot better about having Gio, Floyd, Broadway & Company try to replace Vazquez or Contreras in the rotation than have one of them replace Mark Buehrle.

Jjav829
06-14-2007, 10:49 AM
Well, as some said, moving MB makes good biz sense. However, I think it makes ever better biz sense to keep him.

Yes, one player cannot make the difference in the standings, but he can make a difference in attendance numbers. As many have pointed out Mark is very popular with our fanbase. Mark in a Sox uniform? Still keeps putting our rears in the seats, and especially gets us in front of our TV's. Same with Paulie (although he's frustratin' the malarky out of all of us) and same with AJ (which I agree, I don't see him going anywhere anytime soon. He might drive Ozzie crazy at times, but we know that position is so vital for the team. So-so catching gets you results like Toby Hall (nice guy, but nowhere near the player AJ is.))

Do you really believe this? Do you really think Mark Buehrle is such a draw that people are going to stop going to games if he is dealt? The attendance might fall, but only because Buehrle's departure would indicate the Sox giving up on competing this season. But it's not like fans are going to decide not to go to games just because Mark Buehrle is no longer a White Sox. Besides, he's a starting pitcher. He's going to play in 35 or less of the 162 games the Sox play. And approximately half of those will be on the road. The past two years, Buehrle has started 19 and 17 games respectively at the Cell. That's about 1/5 of the total games played at the Cell.

I think we've seen Sox fans care more about winning than specifically going to see a certain player. When the Sox were bad in the early 2000's, fans didn't show up. Buehrle was on the team. Sox fans didn't care. No one was saying, "The team is bad, but Buehrle is starting tonight, so I have to go!"

Two years ago, the Sox lost two big fan favorites in Frank Thomas and Aaron Rowand. Granted, the team was coming off a World Series win, so it didn't matter who left, fans were going to show up to the games. But still, the team survived those loses. I'm quite sure they can withstand the loss of Mark Buehrle, from an attendance standpoint, especially if it results in a better team in future years.

Hitmen77
06-14-2007, 10:50 AM
.... I'd hate to see Mark moved for guys like Gavin Floyd. (How bad is this kid in AAA, with all our pitching problems, that we don't see him moved to the pen on the Major League team?)

Actually, he was just named Pitcher of the Week (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070611&content_id=255686&vkey=pr_t494&fext=.jsp&sid=t494).

Oh, I agree with what you're overall point about not wanting to replace Mark with a rookie, but I'm just saying.

Lip Man 1
06-14-2007, 01:21 PM
Brian:

You do know that Jack won more games then any other pitcher in baseball from 1990 through 1994 and was also a two time twenty game winner and a Cy Young Award winner right?

Not trying to put down Mark but your comment that 'even Jack in his prime hasn't accomplished what Mark has,' I think is wrong.

Lip

AzureJazzMan
06-14-2007, 01:44 PM
Ok, this is my first attempt at posting a trade proposal. But, I really feel that this will help us out now and in the future, without losing Buehrle (at least til the off season)

Trade 1:
Dye to the Dodgers for Johnathan Broxton (http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=455009), Yhency Brazoban (http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=430674) (who has struggled a bit as of late, but has a tremendous history vs. lefties) and possibly have them throw in Brady Clark (http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070610&content_id=2018043&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la) (who was recently designated for assignment)

Then…

Trade 2:
Contreras (who would probably be willing to waive his no trade clause to be back with his mentor El Duque) to the Mets for Ambiorix Burgos (http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=434586), along with either Lastings Milledge (http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=451186) or Shawn Green (http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=115094)

Then…

Promote Gavin Floyd from AAA

This way we shore up our bullpen, increase our speed, add to our depth in the outfield and bench. Best of all, we won’t have to lose MB (again…til the offseason)

Just a suggestion…

WhiteSox5187
06-14-2007, 02:03 PM
Do you really believe this? Do you really think Mark Buehrle is such a draw that people are going to stop going to games if he is dealt? The attendance might fall, but only because Buehrle's departure would indicate the Sox giving up on competing this season. But it's not like fans are going to decide not to go to games just because Mark Buehrle is no longer a White Sox. Besides, he's a starting pitcher. He's going to play in 35 or less of the 162 games the Sox play. And approximately half of those will be on the road. The past two years, Buehrle has started 19 and 17 games respectively at the Cell. That's about 1/5 of the total games played at the Cell.

I think we've seen Sox fans care more about winning than specifically going to see a certain player. When the Sox were bad in the early 2000's, fans didn't show up. Buehrle was on the team. Sox fans didn't care. No one was saying, "The team is bad, but Buehrle is starting tonight, so I have to go!"

Two years ago, the Sox lost two big fan favorites in Frank Thomas and Aaron Rowand. Granted, the team was coming off a World Series win, so it didn't matter who left, fans were going to show up to the games. But still, the team survived those loses. I'm quite sure they can withstand the loss of Mark Buehrle, from an attendance standpoint, especially if it results in a better team in future years.
I think attendance would be hurt if Buerhle leaves and the Sox suck for awhile. I also think attendance would be hurt if Buerhle stays and the Sox suck too. But at least by holding onto guys like Buerhle it suggests that you're interested in winning sooner rather than later. Replacing Buerhle with a guy like Gio or Floyd or even saying "Danks is MB's replacement" makes it sound like this team is looking towards winning in 2010 more than 2008.

Frontman
06-14-2007, 02:10 PM
Do you really believe this? Do you really think Mark Buehrle is such a draw that people are going to stop going to games if he is dealt? The attendance might fall, but only because Buehrle's departure would indicate the Sox giving up on competing this season. But it's not like fans are going to decide not to go to games just because Mark Buehrle is no longer a White Sox. Besides, he's a starting pitcher. He's going to play in 35 or less of the 162 games the Sox play. And approximately half of those will be on the road. The past two years, Buehrle has started 19 and 17 games respectively at the Cell. That's about 1/5 of the total games played at the Cell.


Yes, I do believe fans will stay away once Mark and some of the others are traded. Many of those fans are "champion come latelys" but I want them to stay around. I WANT the Sox to be making money off of them, even if they aren't "diehard" White Sox fans. Fleece 'em for all their worth, use that money to improve your team.

More money into the team, more into the team's coffers, more revenue to work with to sign talent. Signing Mark also would be a sign that "money be damned, we want the best players we can get" even if that's not the Sox philosophy internally. Appearances can keep people in the seats.

From all the trade prospects the Sox can get something for, which one would you want them to keep? Even if he isn't playing everyday, I think the majority of us would rather see Mark stay in the black and white versus Dye, Contreras, Uribe, Pods, etc.

WSox597
06-14-2007, 05:12 PM
even if KW doesn't like him, I know JR looves him

Wow, why do you think Williams doesn't like MB? That doesn't make any sense if it's true. Good pitchers that don't get hurt are much harder to find than average GMs. Even very good GMs.

I would really like to see MB signed and remain a White Sox until his playing days are done. He's too much a part of the team to see him wearing other colors.

Dye, on the other hand, would bring nice young players in return. Go for it, he does seem to be slowing down all of a sudden. Great guy, but he could bring back returns.

I wonder what Vazquez would bring back in a trade, with his "good stuff" and all? Plus he's signed to an extension.

WhiteSox5187
06-14-2007, 05:25 PM
Wow, why do you think Williams doesn't like MB? That doesn't make any sense if it's true. Good pitchers that don't get hurt are much harder to find than average GMs. Even very good GMs.

I would really like to see MB signed and remain a White Sox until his playing days are done. He's too much a part of the team to see him wearing other colors.

Dye, on the other hand, would bring nice young players in return. Go for it, he does seem to be slowing down all of a sudden. Great guy, but he could bring back returns.

I wonder what Vazquez would bring back in a trade, with his "good stuff" and all? Plus he's signed to an extension.
I'm not so sure that Kenny either likes or dislikes MB. I'm just saying that even if for some reason KW didn't like MB Jerry loves him.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 05:39 PM
With A.J. Pierzynski on this team? The would have a fist fight every week.
A.J. and Zambrano would get along just fine. Just because Barrett is an ******* doesn't mean Zambrano wouldn't respect A.J. and vice versa. In fact the two became friendly while shooting the McDonalds commercials.

MRM
06-14-2007, 05:55 PM
A.J. and Zambrano would get along just fine. Just because Barrett is an ******* doesn't mean Zambrano wouldn't respect A.J. and vice versa. In fact the two became friendly while shooting the McDonalds commercials.

I have no use for an unpredictable, mentally unstable, overpriced, primma donna pitching for the Sox.

WhiteSox5187
06-14-2007, 06:03 PM
I have no use for an unpredictable, mentally unstable, overpriced, primma donna pitching for the Sox.
Whoa whoa, who said anything about a Jamie Navarro comeback?

Truth is, Zambrano is a prima donna and is mentally unstable, but he's also damn good. He can also look like **** at times too though.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 06:46 PM
I have no use for an unpredictable, mentally unstable, overpriced, primma donna pitching for the Sox.
The kid's only 26 years old. I think he'll mature, and getting him away from the Cubs may be just what he needs. Ozzie being a fellow countryman may help as well.

He has been a head-case at times so far, but I like the fact that he seems to be a fierce competitor.

Plus, he gives us a good switch-hitting bat off the bench (half-teal).

MRM
06-14-2007, 07:50 PM
The kid's only 26 years old. I think he'll mature,

"Only 26"? At what age does a man mature beyond what Zambrano has shown? His antics might be understandable (though still not acceptable) from a 19 or 20 year old rookie brought up too soon, but a 26 year old 6-year veteran with his history? He seems unable of handling the role of ace on a bad team. What happens if you put him in a post-season game and things don't go his way? I'll pass, thanks. Just not worth the risk that he might "mature" after signing a huge, long term contract.

Frater Perdurabo
06-14-2007, 07:58 PM
Jjav argues that Buehrle makes the most sense, business wise. I respectfully disagree, because starting pitching is the most valuable commodity, and LH starting pitching of the level of excellence that Buehrle consistently has exhibited throughout his career, is extremely uncommon. Add to the fact that he'd likely sign a fair (i.e. slightly below "market value" contract) to stay with the Sox, and it's a no-brainer to keep him.

OTOH, Konerko doesn't earn 10-5 rights until mid-2008. He's signed through 2010 to a contract that by 2007 standards seems reasonable. He'd likely fetch as good of a package as FA-to-be Buehrle would fetch. From the Angels I want Kotchman and Shields, but other (equal or better) packages should be available from other teams that need hitting (LAD, SD, etc.).

Why trade Paulie? Because it's easier to find FA hitters to build a lineup than it is to find pitchers of Buehrle's caliber. (Look how easy it was to find Dye for cheap on the free agent scrap heap...)

Conversely, keep Thome because it's harder to find good LH power hitters than RH power hitters. Thome's power and OBP are uncommonly good. Plus, RH/LH aside, Thome is a better hitter than PK. Moreover, his deal's shorter and Philly pays part of his salary.

Flight argues the dearth of position player prospects and the "surplus" of starting pitching prospects justifies dealing Buehrle. But the prospects KW deems expendable (after stocking the rotation and the pen with his choice among them) can be traded for young, cheap position players. Or, trade Contreras or Vazquez - both of whom are signed long-term - for position players.

Locking up a rotation of Buehrle, Garland and Danks makes the most business sense.

If rebuilding is the thing to do, trade PK, Contreras and Dye. Trading those three frees up cash to re-sign Buehrle, makes the team younger, and fetches bullpen help and young position players (or position player prospects) to field a faster offense (to complement a strong rotation and re-vamped bullpen) in 2008.

JB98
06-14-2007, 08:03 PM
Jjav argues that Buehrle makes the most sense, business wise. I respectfully disagree, because starting pitching is the most valuable commodity, and LH starting pitching of the level of excellence that Buehrle consistently has exhibited throughout his career, is extremely uncommon. Add to the fact that he'd likely sign a fair (i.e. slightly below "market value" contract) to stay with the Sox, and it's a no-brainer to keep him.

OTOH, Konerko doesn't earn 10-5 rights until mid-2008. He's signed through 2010 to a contract that by 2007 standards seems reasonable. He'd likely fetch as good of a package as FA-to-be Buehrle would fetch. From the Angels I want Kotchman and Shields, but other (equal or better) packages should be available from other teams that need hitting (LAD, SD, etc.).

Why trade Paulie? Because it's easier to find FA hitters to build a lineup than it is to find pitchers of Buehrle's caliber. (Look how easy it was to find Dye for cheap on the free agent scrap heap...)

Conversely, keep Thome because it's harder to find good LH power hitters than RH power hitters. Thome's power and OBP are uncommonly good. Plus, RH/LH aside, Thome is a better hitter than PK. Moreover, his deal's shorter and Philly pays part of his salary.

Flight argues the dearth of position player prospects and the "surplus" of starting pitching prospects justifies dealing Buehrle. But the prospects KW deems expendable (after stocking the rotation and the pen with his choice among them) can be traded for young, cheap position players. Or, trade Contreras or Vazquez - both of whom are signed long-term - for position players.

Locking up a rotation of Buehrle, Garland and Danks makes the most business sense.

If rebuilding is the thing to do, trade PK, Contreras and Dye. Trading those three frees up cash to re-sign Buehrle, makes the team younger, and fetches bullpen help and young position players (or position player prospects) to field a faster offense (to complement a strong rotation and re-vamped bullpen) in 2008.

What if we trade PK, Contreras and Dye and Buerhle walks? Now, you're really ****ed.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 08:08 PM
What if we trade PK, Contreras and Dye and Buerhle walks? Now, you're really ****ed.
The best way to handle this situation may be this:

KW can work out terms of a trade for Mark and then before pulling the trigger approach him and tell him, "I have a trade in place that would send you to The (insert team). We'd rather keep you around however, so if you're willing to sign right now for (insert salary and years) we'll call off the trade and give you a full no-trade clause for the rest of '07 and all of '08. If not, the trade will be made tomorrow."

I know the White Sox' stated position was not to discuss contracts during the season, but I think under the present circumstances they'd have no choice.

Edit: I think $18M for Five years would be a fair contract for Buehrle.

Frontman
06-14-2007, 08:12 PM
The best way to handle this situation may be this:

KW can work out terms of a trade for Mark and then before pulling the trigger approach him and tell him, "I have a trade in place that would send you to The (insert team). We'd rather keep you around however, so if you're willing to sign right now for (insert salary and years) we'll call off the trade and give you a full no-trade clause for the rest of '07 and all of '08. If not, the trade will be made tomorrow."

I know the White Sox' stated position was not to discuss contracts during the season, but I think under the present circumstances they'd have no choice.

Edit: I think $18M for Five years would be a fair contract for Buehrle.

You could avoid that whole situation by sitting down with Mark and his agent and saying "We're going to rebuild. We want to rebuild with you as our ace. We'll give you XXX years for XXX amount of money, no trade clause until 2009 season."

Then, if Mark and co doesn't want to "play ball" (pardon the pun) you know where you stand with him and keep others.

JB98
06-14-2007, 08:12 PM
The best way to handle this situation may be this:

KW can work out terms of a trade for Mark and then before pulling the trigger approach him and tell him, "I have a trade in place that would send you to The (insert team). We'd rather keep you around however, so if you're willing to sign right now for (insert salary and years) we'll call off the trade and give you a full no-trade clause for the rest of '07 and all of '08. If not, the trade will be made tomorrow."

I know the White Sox' stated position was not to discuss contracts during the season, but I think under the present circumstances they'd have no choice.

Edit: I think $18M for Five years would be a fair contract for Buehrle.

Regardless of how much you or I or Frater think Buerhle is worth, I don't think we can afford to trade PK to free up money for Buerhle unless we've already come to terms with Mark.

Since I haven't heard anything about negotiations, I don't think this scenario is plausible in any way.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 08:20 PM
Regardless of how much you or I or Frater think Buerhle is worth, I don't think we can afford to trade PK to free up money for Buerhle unless we've already come to terms with Mark.

Since I haven't heard anything about negotiations, I don't think this scenario is plausible in any way.
Well my point is that the Sox can't afford not to trade Buehrle unless they are certain they can sign him next year. I would prefer they did re-sign him rather than trade him but to insure they don't lose him for nothing I would negotiate the best trade possible for him and the before pulling the trigger on the deal make him my best offer, telling him if he doesn't accept he is traded but if he does accept he is guaranteed a no-trade clause that runs through the end of '08.

This way the Sox protect themselves from losing Mark for nothing but draft picks.

JB98
06-14-2007, 08:22 PM
Well my point is that the Sox can't afford not to trade Buehrle unless they are certain they can sign him next year. I would prefer they did re-sign him rather than trade him but to insure they don't lose him for nothing I would negotiate the best trade possible for him and the before pulling the trigger on the deal make him my best offer, telling him if he doesn't accept he is traded but if he does accept he is guaranteed a no-trade clause that runs through the end of '08.

This way the Sox protect themselves from losing Mark for nothing but draft picks.

In that case, they better trade him. I think Buerhle intends to test the market.

MRM
06-14-2007, 08:22 PM
The best way to handle this situation may be this:

KW can work out terms of a trade for Mark and then before pulling the trigger approach him and tell him, "I have a trade in place that would send you to The (insert team). We'd rather keep you around however, so if you're willing to sign right now for (insert salary and years) we'll call off the trade and give you a full no-trade clause for the rest of '07 and all of '08. If not, the trade will be made tomorrow."

I know the White Sox' stated position was not to discuss contracts during the season, but I think under the present circumstances they'd have no choice.

Edit: I think $18M for Five years would be a fair contract for Buehrle.

So you are going to tie up nearly 20% of your payroll on one starting pitcher who is also a starting pitcher in this years (so far) disaster? Where, then, is the money going to come from to fix the real problems on the team? Surely you don't spend 18mil/yr on a pitcher then go with all unknowns (kids) around him in the field?

I understand why fans want to keep Buehrle until his left arm falls off (and probably a couple of years after that) but from a financial standpoint is that the best way to win? No way.

And this doesn't even address how stupid it is to give a 5+ year deal to ANY pitcher. Of all the times it's been done, maybe once or twice did it work out to the teams benefit. And we are talking about some guys who had a better resume' than Mark when they signed the deal. The vast majority of the time it turns out to be a disaster. There is another side to the coin that MB has been a workhorse for so long...that's alot more wear and tear on the arm. 18mil/yr? He might get that much, but the Sox need to stay far away from it.

Jerry needs to stick to his guns on contract length where starting pitchers are concerned. 3 years guaranteed with two option years (and a fairly hefty buyout) is reasonable. 5+ guaranteed, isn't.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 08:28 PM
You could avoid that whole situation by sitting down with Mark and his agent and saying "We're going to rebuild. We want to rebuild with you as our ace. We'll give you XXX years for XXX amount of money, no trade clause until 2009 season."

Then, if Mark and co doesn't want to "play ball" (pardon the pun) you know where you stand with him and keep others.
I agree that is a good way to do it but the problem I see is that the Sox and Buehrle have repeatedly stated they will not negotiate contracts during the season. If they approached Mark that way, he may respond that he'd love to stay here but let's keep our understanding of no negotiations during the season and talk in good faith October.

If the Sox put it to him that a trade is in place, it would force his hand and make him decide if he really wants to stay here or not. And I'm not suggesting low-balling him or making him give a discount. I think they should make him a very fair offer along the lines of $90M/5yrs. If he refuses, the Sox protected themselves and get a return for Mark in the trade.

I'm no expert in this sort of transaction, it's just my opinion/suggestion.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 08:30 PM
In that case, they better trade him. I think Buerhle intends to test the market.
Then sadly, yes, they better trade him.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 08:36 PM
So you are going to tie up nearly 20% of your payroll on one starting pitcher who is also a starting pitcher in this years (so far) disaster? Where, then, is the money going to come from to fix the real problems on the team? Surely you don't spend 18mil/yr on a pitcher then go with all unknowns (kids) around him in the field?

What would you rather do, let our most proven pitcher go and continue to pay our slow aging position players who are currently the worst offense in baseball and are slipping on defense?

Trade Contreras, Dye, Iguchi, Mackowiak, Cintron, etc.

I would expect the Sox to have a payroll in the neighborhood of $115M for 2008.

itsnotrequired
06-14-2007, 08:37 PM
I would expect the Sox to have a payroll in the neighborhood of $115M for 2008.

The Sox are going to add $9 million in payroll next season? I think not.

Brian26
06-14-2007, 08:43 PM
Edit: I think $18M for Five years would be a fair contract for Buehrle.

:nuts:

If Buehrle can get that kind of deal from any team on earth, I wish him the best and say goodbye.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 08:44 PM
The Sox are going to add $9 million in payroll next season? I think not.
Well according to KW the Sox supposedly still had more money available to play with at the deadline this year if a need were to arise. So you add that money along with the natural bump of inflation and that should be more than enough to account for a less than 10% raise.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 08:47 PM
:nuts:

If Buehrle can get that kind of deal from any team on earth, I wish him the best and say goodbye.
Have you seen what pitching has been going for these days? It will only go up.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think he'll get?

Brian26
06-14-2007, 08:48 PM
Have you seen what pitching has been going for these days? It will only go up.

Maybe it will. That's a pretty big contract though. Ninety million dollars is a lot of money to invest in one guy.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 09:07 PM
Maybe it will. That's a pretty big contract though. Ninety million dollars is a lot of money to invest in one guy.
I agree and I think it's insane, but that's the way it is nowadays.

Now it's soapbox time...

Baseball is supposed to be a sport but it has become nothing more than a big business. I used to go to over thirty games a year when I was a kid, when seats were something like $1.75. Now, to take my wife and two kids to a game, I'm spending nearly $200.

Baseball players are way overpaid for playing a kid's game. They demand to be represented by a union and protected under collective bargaining agreements but then want to negotiate their contracts as individual contractors.

How about this: You want to be a Major League Baseball Player? Fine. The union scale is $1million per year. Pretty sweet deal, huh? Amillion bucks a year just for playing a game six months out of the year plus two months training. Oh, that's not enough? Fine. Go get a job and see if you can earn that much.

But that's not fair! One guy hits 45 home runs and bats .330 and makes the same as the guy batting .230 with 4 home runs! Hey, it's a union job. That's the scale. You both get paid the same amount for doing your best. Remember, this is a Sport, it's a Game. You play hard and do your best because you are a sportsman, a competitor who takes pride in his performance and wants to help his team win. And you lucky so and so, you're getting A MILLION BUCKS for doing it!

You get hired by MLB, we assign you to the team you will play for and you make union scale. That way we can charge our customers reasonable prices like $10.00 for a box seat. A good honest baseball game at a tasty price!

End of rant. I'm stepping off the soapbox now.....

itsnotrequired
06-14-2007, 09:09 PM
Well according to KW the Sox supposedly still had more money available to play with at the deadline this year if a need were to arise. So you add that money along with the natural bump of inflation and that should be more than enough to account for a less than 10% raise.

Next year, the Sox will add $4 million to payroll for Garland, Contreras, MacDougal, Ozuna and Thornton. Vazquez will get $1 million less than this year BUT there will be no more money coming from Arizona for his salary ($2.5 million for this season). So in reality, the Sox are out $1.5 million but for overall payroll dollars, it needs to be counted as a loss. So that means $3 million is added due to the contracts on the books (plus an extra $100k or so for the scrubs).

Do the Sox really have $6 million to play with? Why wouldn't they have spent that money this year? Are they waiting for the deadline? Lots of questions remain. If all the free agents/Crede are let go, KW has about $27 million to play with. But he has to score a 1 or 2 starting pitcher, an outfielder, secondbaseman and third baseman. Can it be done with $27 million? Beats me. As of today, I predict payroll settles in at $110 million, tops.

The Immigrant
06-14-2007, 09:13 PM
You get hired by MLB, we assign you to the team you will play for and you make union scale.

Go back to Russia.


:tongue:

WhiteSox5187
06-14-2007, 09:16 PM
Next year, the Sox will add $4 million to payroll for Garland, Contreras, MacDougal, Ozuna and Thornton. Vazquez will get $1 million less than this year BUT there will be no more money coming from Arizona for his salary ($2.5 million for this season). So in reality, the Sox are out $1.5 million but for overall payroll dollars, it needs to be counted as a loss. So that means $3 million is added due to the contracts on the books (plus an extra $100k or so for the scrubs).

Do the Sox really have $6 million to play with? Why wouldn't they have spent that money this year? Are they waiting for the deadline? Lots of questions remain. If all the free agents/Crede are let go, KW has about $27 million to play with. But he has to score a 1 or 2 starting pitcher, an outfielder, secondbaseman and third baseman. Can it be done with $27 million? Beats me. As of today, I predict payroll settles in at $110 million, tops.
I still think that Jose is gonna wind up being traded. I would think that if KW says to Jerry "Look, give me an extra fifteen million to play with and I can bring us another title" Jerry would give it to him. We'll see. If Buerhle is not re-signed or at the very least, negotiations have not begun by the All Star Break, Mark will be gone.

DickAllen72
06-14-2007, 09:17 PM
You get hired by MLB, we assign you to the team you will play for and you make union scale. [quote]

Go back to Russia.


:tongue:LOL! :D:

Actually, I'm as Capitalist as they come. But Sports are supposed to be just that, Sports. It's supposed to be escapism from the real world, kind of a fantasy for kids from 5 to 95. It's just a game.

Brian26
06-14-2007, 10:02 PM
Brian:

You do know that Jack won more games then any other pitcher in baseball from 1990 through 1994 and was also a two time twenty game winner and a Cy Young Award winner right?

Not trying to put down Mark but your comment that 'even Jack in his prime hasn't accomplished what Mark has,' I think is wrong.

Lip

Of course I remember all of that about McDowell. I didn't mean it as a put-down of his accomplishments at all.

My opinion is that Buehrle has accomplished slightly more during his tenure with the Sox than Black Jack did. I understand Buehrle's never won a Cy Young or had a 20-win season, but I think you have to look at his record in the '05 playoffs and his leadership.

McDowell had 83 wins from '90-'94. Buerhle had 81 wins from '01-'05.

Frater Perdurabo
06-14-2007, 10:11 PM
Obviously you re-sign Buehrle before you trade away Dye, PK and Contreras.

It was my understanding that "Buehrle testing the market" was what the Sox wanted (to protect themselves in case Buehrle's 2nd half 2006 slump carried forward and to avoid contract discussions being a distraction from a title run), not what Mark wanted.

I think if KW made him a fair offer, Buehrle would accept it.

areilly
06-14-2007, 10:24 PM
Of course I remember all of that about McDowell. I didn't mean it as a put-down of his accomplishments at all.

My opinion is that Buehrle has accomplished slightly more during his tenure with the Sox than Black Jack did. I understand Buehrle's never won a Cy Young or had a 20-win season, but I think you have to look at his record in the '05 playoffs and his leadership.

McDowell had 83 wins from '90-'94. Buerhle had 81 wins from '01-'05.

I think the difference is that McDowell was one of the top 3 pitchers in the game in that stretch. Buehrle has respectable numbers, but if I was assembling a dream team rotation I don't think he'd be on it. Probably not even top 10.

itsnotrequired
06-14-2007, 10:35 PM
I think the difference is that McDowell was one of the top 3 pitchers in the game in that stretch. Buehrle has respectable numbers, but if I was assembling a dream team rotation I don't think he'd be on it. Probably not even top 10.

But Buehrle is the marquee LH free agent pitcher this season. One could argue Pettitte is as well but he is several years older than Buehrle.

If Buehrle puts up respectable numbers this season, he is looking at a massive payday this offseason.

Frontman
06-15-2007, 12:13 AM
I agree that is a good way to do it but the problem I see is that the Sox and Buehrle have repeatedly stated they will not negotiate contracts during the season. If they approached Mark that way, he may respond that he'd love to stay here but let's keep our understanding of no negotiations during the season and talk in good faith October.

If the Sox put it to him that a trade is in place, it would force his hand and make him decide if he really wants to stay here or not. And I'm not suggesting low-balling him or making him give a discount. I think they should make him a very fair offer along the lines of $90M/5yrs. If he refuses, the Sox protected themselves and get a return for Mark in the trade.

I'm no expert in this sort of transaction, it's just my opinion/suggestion.

That talk was talk at the beginning of the season, when they thought they had a chance at a run. Now, they have to believe like the rest of us its time to start rebuilding NOW, and not in the off-season. If we can start putting things in place for 2008 and 2007 isn't even over, the Sox have some things to count on. You can count on Mark to perform. Trading Mark for prospects? You can't count on prospects, as the Southside has seen enough of "sure fire" players be nothing but hype.

Jjav829
06-15-2007, 12:21 AM
Jjav argues that Buehrle makes the most sense, business wise. I respectfully disagree, because starting pitching is the most valuable commodity, and LH starting pitching of the level of excellence that Buehrle consistently has exhibited throughout his career, is extremely uncommon. Add to the fact that he'd likely sign a fair (i.e. slightly below "market value" contract) to stay with the Sox, and it's a no-brainer to keep him.

OTOH, Konerko doesn't earn 10-5 rights until mid-2008. He's signed through 2010 to a contract that by 2007 standards seems reasonable. He'd likely fetch as good of a package as FA-to-be Buehrle would fetch. From the Angels I want Kotchman and Shields, but other (equal or better) packages should be available from other teams that need hitting (LAD, SD, etc.).

Why trade Paulie? Because it's easier to find FA hitters to build a lineup than it is to find pitchers of Buehrle's caliber. (Look how easy it was to find Dye for cheap on the free agent scrap heap...)

Conversely, keep Thome because it's harder to find good LH power hitters than RH power hitters. Thome's power and OBP are uncommonly good. Plus, RH/LH aside, Thome is a better hitter than PK. Moreover, his deal's shorter and Philly pays part of his salary.

Flight argues the dearth of position player prospects and the "surplus" of starting pitching prospects justifies dealing Buehrle. But the prospects KW deems expendable (after stocking the rotation and the pen with his choice among them) can be traded for young, cheap position players. Or, trade Contreras or Vazquez - both of whom are signed long-term - for position players.

Locking up a rotation of Buehrle, Garland and Danks makes the most business sense.

If rebuilding is the thing to do, trade PK, Contreras and Dye. Trading those three frees up cash to re-sign Buehrle, makes the team younger, and fetches bullpen help and young position players (or position player prospects) to field a faster offense (to complement a strong rotation and re-vamped bullpen) in 2008.

Like JB98 mentioned, what happens if you trade Konerko and then Buehrle still walks?

Let's remember the main reason we're even discussing trading Buehrle is because he is a free agent after this season, and may very well leave. It's not just as cut and dry as whether we want to keep Buehrle. It's also about how badly he wants to stay (and none of us truly knows the answer to that, regardless of what we may try to read into what Buehrle says), and how much money will be a factor in that decision.

What if KW trades Konerko and Buehrle views that as a decision by the Sox front office to build for the future, rather than compete next year, and leaves for a team he feels is more ready to compete next year? What if Buehrle sees Konerko, who turned down slightly less money to return to the Sox, traded away 2 years after signing that deal, and is reminded that there is no loyalty in sports, so he bolts for the highest bidder?

Look, I get that you don't like Konerko for whatever reason. But he's one of the few players who should be kept. And, unlike in previous seasons, our offense has been a large part of the problem this season. You trade Konerko, Dye walks, Thome walks after next year, Crede is out for the year and his future is completely up in the air...where's the offense coming from? Our rookies haven't shown that much potential. Yes, we could find hitters in free agency, but if the market is still ridiculously out of whack, you're talking about investing a small fortune just to field a team, much less a good one.

kitekrazy
06-15-2007, 04:32 AM
It seems its time to talk trading some of our FA's and start the rebuilding process. All I hear is that Mark Buehrle would fetch us the most in a trade.

Now, what are the odds that Kenny goes against that philosophy and builds AROUND Mark, versus using him to get possible replacements for Pods/Dye/Iguchi/Uribe/Crede?

I really like Mark, and my simple way of looking at it is "If Mark's worth the most out of these guys, keep him and dump the rest."

I still don't get why they fork 10M a year for Vasquez and not sign Mark. I guess home grown talent doesn't mean much.

You are not going to get much for him unless the other team can lock up a deal. Getting prospects are "prospects"-not a sure thing.

MRM
06-15-2007, 04:53 AM
I still don't get why they fork 10M a year for Vasquez and not sign Mark. I guess home grown talent doesn't mean much.


For starters Javier gets 11.5mil, not 10. Might seem trivial but I'd be happy to get the difference, myself.

Secondly it's not nearly as simple as just "sign Mark". Reinsdorf had it made with negotionions with Jordan. Mike made 80% of his money from endorsements, mostly national, but he and Jerry both knew that would be cut in half if he went anywhere else. He was associated with the Bulls. They were co-branded for better or worse. At one point Jordan was drawing a 3mil salary out of his 75mil/yr empire.

With todays Sox players Jerry can't play that card. At best they get, what? A local car dealership ad? If Buehrle threw that no-hitter in, say, a Mets or Yankees uni what would his endorsement value be? Still might not be national, but there would be alot more car dealerships signing him up.

Frater Perdurabo
06-15-2007, 08:05 AM
Like JB98 mentioned, what happens if you trade Konerko and then Buehrle still walks?

Of course you sign Buehrle BEFORE trading Paulie.

As another poster said, KW should work out the particulars of trading both players, then approach Buehrle and say "we want to build around YOU, and we want to sign you right now, so that we can make some other moves to set us up to have a faster, more consistent, more slump-proof offense and bullpen next season." In think in that scenario, as long as the offer is fair, there's a 80-20 chance Buehrle signs. If Buehrle rejects the offer, then you deal him.

I don't not like Paulie. I think he's overpaid for the one skill he brings - RH power - and I think he's extremely overrated by far too many Sox fans. As a contrarian, I go against the grain and have to argue the other side.
:tongue:

SBSoxFan
06-15-2007, 09:09 AM
Of course you sign Buehrle BEFORE trading Paulie.

I might have missed it, but in all these "trade Paulie" posts, no one has ever said who would play first. So, who would play first the rest of the season? Mac, Erstad, Rogowski? :puking:Who plays first in the long run?

Frater Perdurabo
06-15-2007, 09:35 AM
I might have missed it, but in all these "trade Paulie" posts, no one has ever said who would play first. So, who would play first the rest of the season? Mac, Erstad, Rogowski? :puking:Who plays first in the long run?

The trade I suggested was with the Angels; Kotchman would come to the Sox. He's younger, faster, hits lots of doubles, high average, cheaper.

SBSoxFan
06-15-2007, 09:38 AM
The trade I suggested was with the Angels; Kotchman would come to the Sox. He's younger, faster, hits lots of doubles, high average, cheaper.

Oh, thanks. I didn't know he played 1B. :redface:

upperdeckusc
06-15-2007, 09:58 AM
Edit: I think $18M for Five years would be a fair contract for Buehrle.

Fair for buehrle, but no way I would, or the sox organization, is dishing that out to him. 4 yrs 14/yr max is what i say

jabrch
06-15-2007, 10:19 AM
I'm a big fan of Buehrle - but I would hate to see the deadline pass and either the Sox not be within striking distance of the wildcard or Buehrle noteither signed or traded. He's worth way too much to the future of this franchise, either as our Ace, or traded to sit here and walk and see us get nothing more than 2 draft picks.

I'd want two top tier prospects for him - and I think we could get it.

Adam Jones and Jeff Clement from Seattle, or a combination of the Mets OF/SPs in the top of their system would both fit. The Cards have some guys I'd like. If the Brewers really want to make a run at it, they have guys I'd LOVE.

cws05champ
06-15-2007, 12:25 PM
I'm a big fan of Buehrle - but I would hate to see the deadline pass and either the Sox not be within striking distance of the wildcard or Buehrle noteither signed or traded. He's worth way too much to the future of this franchise, either as our Ace, or traded to sit here and walk and see us get nothing more than 2 draft picks.

I'd want two top tier prospects for him - and I think we could get it.

Adam Jones and Jeff Clement from Seattle, or a combination of the Mets OF/SPs in the top of their system would both fit. The Cards have some guys I'd like. If the Brewers really want to make a run at it, they have guys I'd LOVE.

One name that hasn't been mention in this thread at all is a guy that has great value: Jon Garland. IF you are able to re-sign Buehrle to an extension, then what could Garland land you in return...with the way he is pitching this year and signed through 2008, he would be a great commodity. With Jose having a no trade clause and Vasquez just signed to an extension the only other valuable picthing commodity is Garland. I think what it comes down to over the next two years...do you want Buehrle or Garland, you can't have both.
If MB was re-signed then Garland IMHO would bring a boat load in return to a contending team(like the Mets, Mariners, Braves, Phillies). It would be nice to see a bidding war with the NL East teams trying to get Garland or Buehrle.

kitekrazy
06-15-2007, 01:14 PM
I think attendance would be hurt if Buerhle leaves and the Sox suck for awhile. I also think attendance would be hurt if Buerhle stays and the Sox suck too. But at least by holding onto guys like Buerhle it suggests that you're interested in winning sooner rather than later. Replacing Buerhle with a guy like Gio or Floyd or even saying "Danks is MB's replacement" makes it sound like this team is looking towards winning in 2010 more than 2008.

Reinsdorfs use to say if fans show up he'll make the team better. How many companies would survive by "our product won't suck if you buy it more"?

kitekrazy
06-15-2007, 01:30 PM
For starters Javier gets 11.5mil, not 10. Might seem trivial but I'd be happy to get the difference, myself.

Secondly it's not nearly as simple as just "sign Mark". Reinsdorf had it made with negotionions with Jordan. Mike made 80% of his money from endorsements, mostly national, but he and Jerry both knew that would be cut in half if he went anywhere else. He was associated with the Bulls. They were co-branded for better or worse. At one point Jordan was drawing a 3mil salary out of his 75mil/yr empire.

With todays Sox players Jerry can't play that card. At best they get, what? A local car dealership ad? If Buehrle threw that no-hitter in, say, a Mets or Yankees uni what would his endorsement value be? Still might not be national, but there would be alot more car dealerships signing him up.

Apples and oranges. Has nothing to do with endorsements which baseball players don't rank high on the list. It has nothing to do with signing him.

WhiteSox5187
06-15-2007, 05:06 PM
Reinsdorfs use to say if fans show up he'll make the team better. How many companies would survive by "our product won't suck if you buy it more"?
The Cubs come to mind.

We still sold a lot of season tickets this year and still managed to draw like 30,000 to each game in the homestand, so I think there is still enough room in the budget to have a $100 million+ payroll. Now in two years if we keep sucking, then it's a different story.

Jjav829
06-15-2007, 06:56 PM
Of course you sign Buehrle BEFORE trading Paulie.

As another poster said, KW should work out the particulars of trading both players, then approach Buehrle and say "we want to build around YOU, and we want to sign you right now, so that we can make some other moves to set us up to have a faster, more consistent, more slump-proof offense and bullpen next season." In think in that scenario, as long as the offer is fair, there's a 80-20 chance Buehrle signs. If Buehrle rejects the offer, then you deal him.

I don't not like Paulie. I think he's overpaid for the one skill he brings - RH power - and I think he's extremely overrated by far too many Sox fans. As a contrarian, I go against the grain and have to argue the other side.
:tongue:

What makes you think Buehrle would sign now? Why, in a market where Ted Lilly gets $10 million a year, would Buehrle not take the opportunity to sell his services to all 29 other teams and see just how much other teams value him? It doesn't make sense for him to sign now. The season is nearly half over. He rejected a pretty fair deal coming off his poor 2006 season. This season he has faired much better. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that Buehrle is now going to change his mind and sign, wasting his chance to potentially have some team offer him a contract near what Zito received.

I know, I know. But if he really wants to stay, blah blah blah. I know most fans like to think their players are different. Everyone likes to think it's just the players on the other 29 teams that like money, and that their team's players are more loyal and value things like staying with one team, being the centerpiece of a team, etc. But the bottom line is that athletes are only human. And while we might be discussing different levels of money, it's the same principal. If you were (are?) making 200,000 a year, you could probably live a fairly comfortable life on that. But let's say you were offered 400,000 to go work someplace else (assuming all other conditions are fairly similar). If you were like most other people, you'd probably make that switch in order to have a little extra comfort to your life. Well, same principles with players. Yes, it's on a much larger scale, but that extra $10 million could go a long way in making their lives, and their kids and grandkids lives, much more comfortable.

So while it's nice to think Buehrle is going to sign here for some reasonable amount and leave what could be millions and millions more sitting on the table, it's not very realistic.

TomBradley72
06-15-2007, 07:02 PM
Trade Buehrle to the Cards....they are coming back a little in their Division race....and might offer a little more because they know they can sign him long term....and it helps block the Cubbies from winning that mediocre Division.

Frater Perdurabo
06-15-2007, 07:24 PM
Edited for brevity.

I'm not saying Buehrle would accept. You and I have equal access to Buehrle's thoughts. By equal, I mean none.

Before the season, KW said he wouldn't try to negotiate during the season, because it would be a distraction that could interfere with the pennant chase. Well, the pennant chase ain't over, but the Sox sure have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. Now that it's all but over, I'm just asking KW to re-think his strategy and make an honest effort to sign Buehrle.

Is that so much to ask? :?:

Oh, and for him to trade Paulie, too. :tongue:

MRM
06-15-2007, 10:46 PM
Reinsdorfs use to say if fans show up he'll make the team better. How many companies would survive by "our product won't suck if you buy it more"?

How many companies give their employees huge raises when nobody is buying the product?

Reindsdorfs stance is completely reasonable. If you are spending $110mil on payroll and the fans aren't coming out, you don't keep spending like a drunk sailor in a tatoo parlor.

Paulwny
06-15-2007, 10:55 PM
How many companies give their employees huge raises when nobody is buying the product?

Reindsdorfs stance is completely reasonable. If you are spending $110mil on payroll and the fans aren't coming out, you don't keep spending like a drunk sailor in a tatoo parlor.

Baseball is entertainment, if you don't entertain people they won't buy tickets. If you need to change some of the personnel and it costs money then you have to do it if you want to sell tickets.
It's not like selling a car where the product is bad, in most cases employees aren't responsible for a poor product.