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View Full Version : Who Welcomes A White Flag Trade Pt. 2?


Thome25
06-12-2007, 01:53 PM
I went and saw the Sox play the Phillies yesterday and all I have to say is the Sox are absolutely BRUTAL to watch. Poor hitting and terrible managing. I think we should switch our entire AAA roster with the guys on the big league roster right now.

I say blow this team up and start over. These guys are playing like they have no life and no heart. It's clearly time to start over.

I say start trading guys and get the most you can for them. That includes Contreras, Vazquez, Buehrle, Dye, Konerko etc. Trade any or all of these guys.

What I'm trying to say is: I support a White Flag Trade PART 2.

Who agrees? Disagrees? Why? Why Not?

sox1970
06-12-2007, 01:55 PM
I want the Sox to keep Danks, Buehrle, Garland, and Gio Gonzalez. Anyone else is tradeable if the deal is right. I don't believe in trading for the sake of trading.

Hitmen77
06-12-2007, 02:03 PM
Can we at least use the correct terminology?

Unless you think the Sox will climb back to within about 3 or 4 games of a playoff spot by the end of July and then will be dumping our veterans, any trades they make will NOT be "White Flag Part 2".

chisoxmike
06-12-2007, 02:06 PM
I'm all for trading Contreras, Vazquez, & Dye.

I hope Kenny has the stones to re-sign Buehrle, but I dont think he does. A Buehrle, Garland, & Danks 1-3 rotation for '08 is fine by me.

Like sox1970 said, dont trade just to trade and load up on prospects that will never pan out.

Mr.1Dog
06-12-2007, 02:08 PM
Keep Jenks as well.

1917
06-12-2007, 02:17 PM
Seeing that I got that WS monkey off my back, I would actually be fine with a rebuilding year or two...watching good young prospects become stars like we did with Maggs, Paulie, the "kids can play" era.....I think it would be fun to see, like CLE got too see watching V-Mart, Sizemore, Peralta, and Sabathia grow, and Florida is doing now...I think it will be worth it...and our best bet back to contention, unless we want to spend spend spend.....my 2 cents.

Steelrod
06-12-2007, 02:26 PM
I'm for any trade of anybody as long as we get better value than we give. The future is not now and it is obvious to me that we need to get younger.

Chicken Dinner
06-12-2007, 02:27 PM
You can't hold these cards. Take 3. :smile:

veeter
06-12-2007, 02:38 PM
If we do a position player re-build, we could contend again right away. We have to keep MB, Garland, Danks, and Javy. I like Jose, but he would be the only starter I wouldn't lose sleep over, if dealt.

Craig Grebeck
06-12-2007, 02:40 PM
I want to build around our team around Garland, Vazquez and Danks. Buehrle is a wonderful guy and a better pitcher, but I just can't commit to giving him 16 per. It's not necessarily a white flag, it's getting value for Jermaine (if there's a good enough offer, if not, take the draft picks), Tadahito, and even Uribe. If our pen was producing better, I would love to sell high on Bobby, just because he's suffered a drop in velocity and I don't see him getting better with age. Of course, the key to all of this will be our ability to scout both statistically and in person. We need line drive hitters, not slappers or lifter/pullers, line drive guys. We have a team full of guys right now who either want to slap it or smash it, it's clearly not working.

102605
06-12-2007, 02:49 PM
Keep Buehrle. Please. Sell off the other valuable parts. Keep the obvious Jenks, Garland, Iguchi (do we have a better option than to re-sign him?), Konerko, Thome

Contreras, Vazquez, Dye, Uribe (if someone will take him), Mackowiak, Cintron

Flight #24
06-12-2007, 02:51 PM
I vote in between. Sell off pending FAs, unless you're going to resign Buehrle (and maybe even then, just tell him it's temporary and maybe even work out the parameters of a deal to bring him back).

But this shouldn't and doesn't need to be a total dismantling of any & all vets for prospects and fielding a Marlins-like squad. Not only because I don't think it's necessary but because I'm not convinced that this FO would get the right prospects in here to develop core stars.

jabrch
06-12-2007, 03:09 PM
Can we at least use the correct terminology?

Unless you think the Sox will climb back to within about 3 or 4 games of a playoff spot by the end of July and then will be dumping our veterans, any trades they make will NOT be "White Flag Part 2".


EXACTLY

There will be no White Flag Trade. That doesn't mean we won't dump veterans if we are out of it by the deadline.

Britt Burns
06-12-2007, 03:10 PM
I can live with all of our impending free agents being traded for almost-ready, top-tier prospects--except MB. He needs to be with the Sox for years to come.

Chez
06-12-2007, 03:12 PM
If the Sox decide to truly blow this team up, then I doubt Buehrle would be interested in returning.

HawkDJ
06-12-2007, 03:18 PM
EXACTLY

There will be no White Flag Trade. That doesn't mean we won't dump veterans if we are out of it by the deadline.

Well it may not be under similar circumstances as the first time but really by making these trades we'd effectively be surrendering or waving a white flag.

INSox56
06-12-2007, 03:32 PM
While I put Hell Yeah, I'm not as for it as I used to be. With our continued suckitude, most of the players' trade values have taken a crap. I'd almost rather get a good draft pick for losing our FAs than what they could get us with their value right now.

INSox56
06-12-2007, 03:35 PM
If the Sox decide to truly blow this team up, then I doubt Buehrle would be interested in returning.Or Ichiro signing here.... :(::(::(:

Hitmen77
06-12-2007, 03:43 PM
Well it may not be under similar circumstances as the first time but really by making these trades we'd effectively be surrendering or waving a white flag.

If we're still within reach of the playoffs, then it's surrendering/white flag waving. If we're still far out of the race at the end of July, then there is really nothing that we're really "surrendering". I know it's just semantics, but it's a pretty important distinction IMO. Other teams that are out of the race, get to unload veterans and re-stock for the future. The Sox, thanks to that PR-disaster of a trade 10 years ago, will forever be tarred with the "White Flag" label.

Hitmen77
06-12-2007, 03:55 PM
If we're still out of it, I'd be all for trading Dye at the deadline. The thing I have a problem with is that, when the Sox have made these kind of trades since the White Flag Trade (which actually got us Foulke and Howry), they have essentially obtained nobody in exchange for the veteran. Who did we acquire when we traded Ray Durham? What about the James Baldwin trade?

Buehrle is an obvious trade candidate, but only if the Sox have completely closed the door on re-signing him. Trading him and then hoping to get him back as a free agent is very unlikely to work. It almost never happens that way. The big problem is that, in trading MB, we'd be losing our exclusive negotiating period with him. IMO, the only chance we have to keep him is to work out a deal before he hits the open market. Once he hits the open market, he's definitely a goner. There is no way the Sox will match an obscene contract offer that some other team is certain to give Mark ....and once that offer is out there, it'll be very, very tough for Mark to turn it down.

Crede is obviously not tradeable at this point due to his injury.

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 04:35 PM
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes again.

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 04:39 PM
While I put Hell Yeah, I'm not as for it as I used to be. With our continued suckitude, most of the players' trade values have taken a crap. I'd almost rather get a good draft pick for losing our FAs than what they could get us with their value right now.
If Chad Bradford is a Type A free agent we have nothing to worry about.

In fact, we should take some of our minor league filler and deal them for more Chad Bradfords who are FA next year. Then we can pile up on draft picks.

MRM
06-12-2007, 04:58 PM
I think we should switch our entire AAA roster with the guys on the big league roster right now.

Nah, Charlotte is 9 games under .500 themself, even after a lopsided win today :D:

BTW, Pods was 0-4 in the rain shortened game today. One of only two Knights not to pick up a hit. He was, for some reason, credited with an RBI after reaching on an error (and taking second on a second error) with two outs while a run scored, though.

champagne030
06-12-2007, 05:25 PM
Buehrle is an obvious trade candidate, but only if the Sox have completely closed the door on re-signing him. Trading him and then hoping to get him back as a free agent is very unlikely to work. It almost never happens that way. The big problem is that, in trading MB, we'd be losing our exclusive negotiating period with him. IMO, the only chance we have to keep him is to work out a deal before he hits the open market. Once he hits the open market, he's definitely a goner. There is no way the Sox will match an obscene contract offer that some other team is certain to give Mark ....and once that offer is out there, it'll be very, very tough for Mark to turn it down.



Agreed about MB. I like to see the starting staff built around MB, Garland and Danks. Keep Jenks and AJ. Any other player on our 25 man roster is available. Don't trade all of them, but the deck needs to be shuffled.

MRM
06-12-2007, 05:56 PM
Agreed about MB. I like to see the starting staff built around MB, Garland and Danks. Keep Jenks and AJ. Any other player on our 25 man roster is available. Don't trade all of them, but the deck needs to be shuffled.

You would trade Konerko after he gave the sox a hometown discount to re-sign despite being a guy that professes to hate cold weather, who had a sweet offer to play for a contender in southern California much closer to his Las Vegas home? And why is AJ untouchable? Just curious.

JB98
06-12-2007, 06:54 PM
I'd like a third option. I'd like to see changes made, but I don't know if "White Flag" is the right term. I don't want to move veterans for just prospects. I want to contend in 2008.

I would like to see KW lay a foundation for next season with whatever he does. In 2004, he wisely moved to get Garcia and Contreras, which set the stage for his offseason retooling, which set the stage for a title run in 2005.

There is NO ONE on this team that I wouldn't entertain a trade offer for. There are certain guys that I prefer not to trade, but no untouchables. I want to resign Buerhle and Iguchi. I'd prefer NOT to trade Thome, AJ, Konerko, Garland, Danks, Thornton or Jenks. Every else, I'd be willing to trade, if not eager to trade.

Railsplitter
06-12-2007, 07:04 PM
I came to the conclusion the 1997 Sox were pretenders masquearding as contenders a few weeks before the trade.

WSox597
06-12-2007, 07:34 PM
Keep Konerko, Buerhle, Garland, Danks, Jenks, Thome, and AJ.

Crede may be done anyway, if his back doesn't get better, and I'm sure he'd rather be able to walk the rest of his life than to continue playing a kid's game and cripple himself for life.

Dye is probably going to go FA, we have no likely catcher to replace AJ, and Konerko is the soul of the Sox.

Jenks is our only reliable reliever, and Thome is Thome. I've always loved this guy's game, even when he was killing us as an Indian. You can make a case for Thornton sticking around.

Contreras is about 50, and I'm tired of waiting for Vazquez's 10-cent mind to catch up with his million dollar arm. Enough. Did you catch the stat from last night? The Sox are 1-8 in the last 9 games Javy started. Something wrong there.

I like Iguchi's game, and we have no likely suspects to replace him.

Pretty much the rest is trade bait. Our formerly much heralded bench is exposed when playing regularly. Uribe has a strong arm, but no plate discipline. Cintron, why is he even here? Mack has his moments at the plate, but apparently has no position to play. Left looks like his best bet.

The Sox need help, no panic, but they probably should do something. Lord knows I've seen worse Sox teams in years past, but I will always root for the Sox. After 2005 you just expect more.

Who knows, they may get it together yet. This is pretty much the same guys who were tearing the cover off the ball last year. It beats me what happened, other than injuries to quite a few players.

The big boppers need to start bopping, quickly, so we can stop having these threads about breaking up the team.

Frater Perdurabo
06-12-2007, 07:37 PM
No white flag. Re-load on the fly.

Trade Paulie to the Angels for Shields and Kotchman. Trade Dye, Contreras, Uribe for MLB-ready prospects or young MLB talent.

Re-sign Buehrle. Go as high as 5 years, $90 million. Re-sign Iguchi. Sign Ichiro and Eckstein. Trade for a slugging RH LF to sandwich between Thome and Kotchman - if the Yankees want to unload him, Bernie Williams might be a candidate.

In 2008, this re-loaded team contends for the division title.

champagne030
06-12-2007, 07:58 PM
You would trade Konerko after he gave the sox a hometown discount to re-sign despite being a guy that professes to hate cold weather, who had a sweet offer to play for a contender in southern California much closer to his Las Vegas home? And why is AJ untouchable? Just curious.

Yes, I would trade Konerko. I thought he has a no trade clause so our options would be limited. It's not that I dislike like the guy or want him gone. He would probably bring a lot in return. Having him and Thome gives us very limited flexibility with the lineup and both clog the bases.

I prefer to keep AJ (rather than trying to find a replacement) because we have nothing close to replacing him and it's much easier to find a cheap and servicable 1B than a cheap and servicable catcher.

MRM
06-12-2007, 08:00 PM
No white flag. Re-load on the fly.

Trade Paulie to the Angels for Shields and Kotchman. Trade Dye, Contreras, Uribe for MLB-ready prospects or young MLB talent.

Re-sign Buehrle. Go as high as 5 years, $90 million. Re-sign Iguchi. Sign Ichiro and Eckstein. Trade for a slugging RH LF to sandwich between Thome and Kotchman - if the Yankees want to unload him, Bernie Williams might be a candidate.

In 2008, this re-loaded team contends for the division title.

ROFL

Shields and Kotchman for Konerko? If you are giving MB 18mil ,where is the money coming from to pay Ichiro? Who exactly is this "slugging LF" they are supposed to trade for? Bernie Williams is a retired F.A. the Yankees have no say in what he does, but HE says he won't play for another team, hence the retirement.

Other than all that, great ideas...oh, wait...

If we are going to live in fantasy land just keep PK, sign ARod when he inevitably opts out of his Yankees contract. With the money saved by letting MB go, re-sign Dye to another reasonable contract, re-sign gooch, go get every relief pitcher on the market and make a deal to get Carl Crawford. And lets pay off the doctors so Crede is healthy all year.

That gives us a lineup of:

Crawford
Gooch
Thome
Arod
Konerko
Dye
Crede
Uribe
Erstad/Sweeney/Anderson/Fields/FA pickup/who cares?

World Series here we come :D:

soxwon
06-12-2007, 08:29 PM
Trade Dye and a injured Crede for Arod.
Vazquez for Rowand.

Craig Grebeck
06-12-2007, 08:38 PM
Vazquez for Rowand.
You are an idiot.

MRM
06-12-2007, 08:51 PM
You are an idiot.

I'm pretty sure that violates the site policy of being respectful to other posters :D:

soxwon
06-12-2007, 09:01 PM
You are an idiot.

you think giving up Vazquez is too much?

Viva Medias B's
06-12-2007, 09:04 PM
This team, as presently constituted, will not will a darn thing. Hell, at this point, they can hardly win a ballgame yet alone clinch a playoff berth. Hence, unless we show immediate signs of life, it would be prudent to take this team in a different direction. Right now, the only players I would keep are:

Buehrle (if we can re-sign him)
Konerko
Thome
Pierzynski
Vazquez (contract)
Jenks
GarlandThe rest of them can be used as trade bait, as far as I'm concerned. What I want us to do is retool this team to the point that we will be a solid consensus favorite to win the AL Central in 2008. Sound trades and sound free agent signings should get us to that goal. We don't have to go crazy and blow hundreds of millions of dollars like the Yankees, Red Sox, and Jim Hendry would do. We actually did this during the 2004-05 offseason, and how did that turn out for us?

Signing Alex Rodríguez would be nice, but I do not think it is essential. Then again, with the possibility (but not certainty) that the Cubs could get into the playoffs in that horrid NL Central, we will lose the metropolitan shine we had enjoyed since the 2005 playoff run. An A-Rod signing would certainly bring a lot of that metro shine back to the South Side. Also, I've heard rumors that A-Rod is a pretty good ballplayer. However, it would also cost us a ton of money which I think should be used to address more pressing needs.

I think signing Aaron Rowand would be a good idea. I do like Rowand, but I am not as enfatuated with him as other WSIers are. I think having him would be a plus because he does have a good bat, he can provide leadership in our otherwise young outfield, and signing the popular Rowand would score points with fans angry with the organization over the current outcome of this 2007 campaign.

We should also look at signing a decent free agent pitcher or two, especially if we lose Buehrle or fail to pick one up in trades. Perhaps more important than that, we need to get relief pitchers that can actually get opposing batters out. That seems to be a slight problem with this year's relief corps.

Finally, no changes with the coaching staff.

eastchicagosoxfan
06-12-2007, 09:52 PM
I'm not ready to give up the ship, yet.
The 2007 White Sox aren't hitting, and the pen is atrocious, sans Jenks. To compete, and potentially win, they need help in the pen, and hitting, and some speed would be nice. For whatever reason, NO ONE is hitting in the line-up. Who can be traded for pen help and who replaces the traded player? Could Anderson be traded for a solid pen guy? Dye could bring two pen arms, and either an everyday player, or a top-flight MLB ready prospect. Can a team with a healthy Pods, a new right fielder ( Sweeney or the guy gained in the Dye trade ), Fields, and the remaining players, and a revamped pen with proven arms, win a lot of ballgames? Of course, if the present team is hitting, the Sox might only be shopping for pen help.

MRM
06-12-2007, 10:36 PM
Dye could bring two pen arms, and either an everyday player, or a top-flight MLB ready prospect.

ROFLMAO. If Dye could bring ONE good pen arm he'd already be gone. You want TWO AND "an everyday player, or a top-flight MLB ready prospect"?

You people so WAY overvalue Dye it's a wonder why you keep trying to GET RID OF HIM.

Lip Man 1
06-12-2007, 10:48 PM
The circumstances between 1997 and 2007 are like night and day.

You simply do not White Flag it when you are 3 1/2 games off the lead (as in 1997)...however when you are in the toughest division in baseball, have three teams ahead of you and are sitting nine or ten back of the lead, you have to give it serious consideration as in right now...)

Lip

champagne030
06-12-2007, 10:51 PM
ROFLMAO. If Dye could bring ONE good pen arm he'd already be gone. You want TWO AND "an everyday player, or a top-flight MLB ready prospect"?

You people so WAY overvalue Dye it's a wonder why you keep trying to GET RID OF HIM.

I'd venture to say that Dye could bring Shields.

Without a doubt he could bring Linebrink.

JB98
06-12-2007, 10:53 PM
I'd venture to say that Dye could bring Shields.

Without a doubt he could bring Linebrink.

C'mon. Big-league scouts see the same thing we do. Dye has a bad knee. His range in the outfield has declined significantly, and he's hitting .220.

StillMissOzzie
06-12-2007, 11:36 PM
Can we at least use the correct terminology?

Unless you think the Sox will climb back to within about 3 or 4 games of a playoff spot by the end of July and then will be dumping our veterans, any trades they make will NOT be "White Flag Part 2".
Thank you! A veteran salary dump/rebuilding is NOT the same as throwing in the towel when you are still in contention.

Well it may not be under similar circumstances as the first time but really by making these trades we'd effectively be surrendering or waving a white flag.
The play on the field has been much more a concession than any trade that can or will be made.

If we're still out of it, I'd be all for trading Dye at the deadline. The thing I have a problem with is that, when the Sox have made these kind of trades since the White Flag Trade (which actually got us Foulke and Howry), they have essentially obtained nobody in exchange for the veteran. Who did we acquire when we traded Ray Durham? What about the James Baldwin trade?

Buehrle is an obvious trade candidate, but only if the Sox have completely closed the door on re-signing him. Trading him and then hoping to get him back as a free agent is very unlikely to work. It almost never happens that way. The big problem is that, in trading MB, we'd be losing our exclusive negotiating period with him. IMO, the only chance we have to keep him is to work out a deal before he hits the open market. Once he hits the open market, he's definitely a goner. There is no way the Sox will match an obscene contract offer that some other team is certain to give Mark ....and once that offer is out there, it'll be very, very tough for Mark to turn it down.

Crede is obviously not tradeable at this point due to his injury.

Dye could go to a contender for a hot prospect or two, but as a rental player he won't bring much more.

ROFLMAO. If Dye could bring ONE good pen arm he'd already be gone. You want TWO AND "an everyday player, or a top-flight MLB ready prospect"

You people so WAY overvalue Dye it's a wonder why you keep trying to GET RID OF HIM.

I agree, they won't get much for JD now...maybe a bit more nearer the trading deadline. Maybe more if we can get a couple of contenders in a bidding war.
And trade MB if he's so insistent on going the FA route and won't accept the Sox' last, best and final offer.

SMO
:gulp:

champagne030
06-12-2007, 11:36 PM
C'mon. Big-league scouts see the same thing we do. Dye has a bad knee. His range in the outfield has declined significantly, and he's hitting .220.

He could handle left for the Angels. I think Dye's body is older than his age, but the Angels have bullpen arms to burn and I think it's more that the Sox suck than he's got a serious knee injury. Plus, the Angels are not on the hook for any salary and free a 4/$18M contract to make an additional move/moves.

The Padres are looking high and low for any offense. I don't know if he's a FA after this season, but they would certainly trade him for Dye. They have a ton of bullpen depth.

MRM
06-12-2007, 11:56 PM
I'd venture to say that Dye could bring Shields.

Without a doubt he could bring Linebrink.

At least you are being reasonable.

MRM
06-13-2007, 12:00 AM
C'mon. Big-league scouts see the same thing we do. Dye has a bad knee. His range in the outfield has declined significantly, and he's hitting .220.

Of course, but at least he isn't claiming Jermaine could bring two bullpen arms AND a ready for prime time prospect. Nor is he claiming Dye will snag a 12mil per year contract after this season.

Common sense left Sox fans the day they won the series.

Baby steps...babys steps.

MRM
06-13-2007, 12:04 AM
I think it's more that the Sox suck than he's got a serious knee injury.

YOU think? I'm sure the Sox medical staff is relieved to hear JD is just fine and it's just the Sox sucking making it appear he is injured...

Craig Grebeck
06-13-2007, 12:18 AM
you think giving up Vazquez is too much?
Uh, yeah. Giving up a solid pitcher who is locked down for a few years in order to buy high on a LF (that happens to play CF) whose contract is up at the end of the year is too much. We are out of it. Toast. Done. Adding Rowand is stupid. Enough with the retread vets. Let's reload this **** and build it around Danks, Gar, and Vazquez.

MRM
06-13-2007, 12:28 AM
Uh, yeah. Giving up a solid pitcher who is locked down for a few years in order to buy high on a LF (that happens to play CF) whose contract is up at the end of the year is too much. We are out of it. Toast. Done. Adding Rowand is stupid. Enough with the retread vets. Let's reload this **** and build it around Danks, Gar, and Vazquez.


Wow. Someone I agree with. I was starting to think that rational though was outlawed amongst Sox fans. :D:

Hitmen77
06-13-2007, 09:13 AM
I came to the conclusion the 1997 Sox were pretenders masquearding as contenders a few weeks before the trade.

:reinsy
Me too.

soxwon
06-18-2007, 07:18 PM
Uh, yeah. Giving up a solid pitcher who is locked down for a few years in order to buy high on a LF (that happens to play CF) whose contract is up at the end of the year is too much. We are out of it. Toast. Done. Adding Rowand is stupid. Enough with the retread vets. Let's reload this **** and build it around Danks, Gar, and Vazquez.


how about Garland-Danks-Masset-Gio-Floyd as next years staff.
Its gonna be something like that.
But in 2 years it pays off to the tune of
World Champions.

rowand33
06-18-2007, 08:32 PM
how about Garland-Danks-Masset-Gio-Floyd as next years staff.
Its gonna be something like that.
But in 2 years it pays off to the tune of
World Champions.

We'd come close to 100 losses with that staff.

I'm happy with Danks. I love Garland. But we would have three unproven starters: a guy with one career start (which was good), but has stuggled in the pen, a true rookie, and a guy that's had zero success at the MLB level but has a good arm.

I would hope to god that if we traded Buehrle, Vasquez, and Contreras this year (to get to that rotation), and Dye that we'd pick up a guy like Billingsly or anybody else that could jump right into that rotation next year instead of rushing Gio and relying on Masset and Floyd.

However, I'd like Floyd in the 08 pen for sure.

And I really, really hope that Haeger starts to turn things around in AAA. I was really high on him after september and think he could be a very solid 4 or 5 starter. At the very least, he could be nasty out of the bullpen if you go from him to a guy that throws heat.