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infohawk
06-12-2007, 10:00 AM
I was listening to "Baseball This Morning" on XM on my way in to work today. Mark Patrick and Buck Martinez were wrapping up the Sox-Phillies game. Mark Patrick believes the book is out on the White Sox hitters and that pitchers know to keep the ball just off the plate because the hitters will continue to hack away. I think he's spot on. I've believed for quite some time that the major deficiency among Sox hitters is a complete lack of plate discipline. Patrick discussed how one of the Yankee rookie pitchers fared against the Sox hitters compared to the Pirates (gulp). He said the Sox looked pretty bad against the pitcher but the Pirates caused him all kinds of problems by taking pitches and running his pitch count up. I didn't see the Yankee-Pirates game so I'm taking his word for it.

Patrick or Martinez also said that Jermaine Dye had several pitches to crush but can't seem to make solid contact. Isn't that the truth!

tebman
06-12-2007, 10:12 AM
:uribe:

"Why are you looking at me?"

KenBerryGrab
06-12-2007, 11:49 AM
Not only is there no plate discipline, it's like everyone goes up with a "jack or else" approach. Uribe took that one ball the other way last night, but, meh.

How many times have there been guys on base with two outs, where a single would mean a run or two, and guys are swinging out of their jocks? How many warning-track flyballs with two gone and men in scoring position do we need to see?

Chicken Dinner
06-12-2007, 11:50 AM
:uribe:

"Why are you looking at me?"

Your teeth are pretty yellow. What's you been chewin?

Foulke You
06-12-2007, 12:59 PM
Lately, it hasn't been a lack of discipline that has been hurting the Sox. (earlier it was) However, against these weak NL pitchers, the Sox hitters have been getting TONS and I mean TONS of good pitches to hit and they just aren't hitting it. Uribe got a straight fastball down the heart of the plate with 2 runners on yesterday and fouled it back. The pitch was a total meatball. Paulie took a 2-0 straight fastball from Eaton down the heart yesterday and kept the bat on his shoulders. There were also a lot of good pitches to hit in the Astros series too that Sox hitters either fouled back or popped out. How many times have we heard Hawk say, "another good pitch to hit but just underneath it" in the last several games. This is the maddening thing about the '07 Sox, it isn't the "dazzling" efforts from chumps like Adam Eaton, Tyler Clippard, and their ilk that is doing us in, it is that Sox hitters are beating themselves. They aren't getting the job done when they are getting pitches to hit. :mad:

ZombieRob
06-12-2007, 01:52 PM
Hopefully next year K.W tries to get more contact type hitters ,who don't whiff so much.This way they can hit and run more often like Ozzie wants to.Maybe the reason we don't see alot of it ,is becuse the Sox whiff or pop up often trying to go for the "jack".

oeo
06-12-2007, 01:55 PM
Hopefully next year K.W tries and get more contact type hitters ,who don't whiff so much.This way they can hit and run more often like Ozzie wants to.Maybe the reason we don't see alot of it ,is becuse the Sox whiff or pop up often trying to go for the "jack".

Or because no one is ever on base...:dunno:

infohawk
06-12-2007, 02:42 PM
Here is will I will come to the defense of the sabremetricians (at least partly). The best kind of guys to get are the one's who can control the strikezone and draw walks. Contact hitters are good, but unless they can also control the strikezone, their batting averages can fluctuate wildly from month to month, year to year depending on whether a few balls find a hole or end up in the glove of an infielder. Controlling the strikezone and drawing walks is a discernable and repeatable skill. Such a skill is like speed, in that it doesn't slump. Even when a guy isn't hitting well, his .OBP will be solid if he walks frequently enough.

I've been toying with the hypothetical idea of what a guy like Adam Dunn would do for the top (yes the top) of the Sox line-up. Yes he's slow and strikes out a lot, but his career .OBP is high because he walks a lot too. Imagine batting a guy like Dunn second. Since he walks a lot, that means he takes a lot of pitches and would allow the lead-off hitter opportunities to steal bags. If we had a reliable lead-off hitter like Pods in '05 or a guy like, maybe David Eckstein or Ichiro (remember this is just a thought experiment) followed by Adam Dunn followed by Jim Thome (also a high .OBP) followed by Paul Konerko (typically better than average .OBP), I think that club would score a lot of runs. Not to mention that Dunn could give you 40+ bombs.

The more conventional route is to go with a couple of speedsters at the top of the order, but I think that the above scenario is a viable alternative. I'll tell you what, if I had a choice between Dunn or Soriano, I'd probably take Dunn. He will give you the same power, if not better, and reach base far more often which in my mind negates the speed advantage Soriano provides. Just some thoughts on my part....

russ99
06-12-2007, 03:03 PM
Not only is there no plate discipline, it's like everyone goes up with a "jack or else" approach. Uribe took that one ball the other way last night, but, meh.

How many times have there been guys on base with two outs, where a single would mean a run or two, and guys are swinging out of their jocks? How many warning-track flyballs with two gone and men in scoring position do we need to see?

Yeah! And how many towering pop flies on the infield too.... :angry:

Tragg
06-12-2007, 08:05 PM
Obviously the team lacks plate disclipline. No one wants hitters swinging at balls in the eyes or in the dirt, but is "plate disclipline" - taking walks, waiting for good pitches, really a priority of the Sox? If it is, the lessons haven't been imparted for the last several seasons.

nsolo
06-12-2007, 10:18 PM
Here is will I will come to the defense of the sabremetricians (at least partly). The best kind of guys to get are the one's who can control the strikezone and draw walks. Contact hitters are good, but unless they can also control the strikezone, their batting averages can fluctuate wildly from month to month, year to year depending on whether a few balls find a hole or end up in the glove of an infielder. Controlling the strikezone and drawing walks is a discernable and repeatable skill. Such a skill is like speed, in that it doesn't slump. Even when a guy isn't hitting well, his .OBP will be solid if he walks frequently enough.

I've been toying with the hypothetical idea of what a guy like Adam Dunn would do for the top (yes the top) of the Sox line-up. Yes he's slow and strikes out a lot, but his career .OBP is high because he walks a lot too. Imagine batting a guy like Dunn second. Since he walks a lot, that means he takes a lot of pitches and would allow the lead-off hitter opportunities to steal bags. If we had a reliable lead-off hitter like Pods in '05 or a guy like, maybe David Eckstein or Ichiro (remember this is just a thought experiment) followed by Adam Dunn followed by Jim Thome (also a high .OBP) followed by Paul Konerko (typically better than average .OBP), I think that club would score a lot of runs. Not to mention that Dunn could give you 40+ bombs.

The more conventional route is to go with a couple of speedsters at the top of the order, but I think that the above scenario is a viable alternative. I'll tell you what, if I had a choice between Dunn or Soriano, I'd probably take Dunn. He will give you the same power, if not better, and reach base far more often which in my mind negates the speed advantage Soriano provides. Just some thoughts on my part....

Great Post! I would only add that the Sox hitters are seemingly unwilling to adapt. No change in stance, movement in the box, or grip on the bat.

MRM
06-12-2007, 10:38 PM
Great Post! I would only add that the Sox hitters are seemingly unwilling to adapt. No change in stance, movement in the box, or grip on the bat.

And you notice such nuances how?

MRM
06-12-2007, 10:43 PM
Obviously the team lacks plate disclipline. No one wants hitters swinging at balls in the eyes or in the dirt, but is "plate disclipline" - taking walks, waiting for good pitches, really a priority of the Sox? If it is, the lessons haven't been imparted for the last several seasons.

Yeah, that's it, Sox hitters are taught to suck.

Thome is among the MLB leaders in walks despite missing two weeks to injury. I guess the evil Greg Walker hasn't sunk his talons into Jim after a year and a half, yet. He'll get him eventually, though.