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View Full Version : Is Kenny really to blame?


Domeshot17
06-12-2007, 10:34 AM
This won't be a popular thread in my return Im sure, but I had a real interesting discussion about this with some friends after last nights game. How much of this disappointment should be put on Kenny? Part of me is like, this is just a bad run, half our everyday lineup has been injured, but we really weren't prepared this season. We knew Pods was a big injury risk coming off his surgery and did not get a suitable replacement who could lead off. We knew Brian was 50/50 to suck again, and his replacement was another big time injury risk. With the offense, Kenny rolled the dice bigtime that one of 2 things would happen: (a) All those guys plus Crede and an aging Thome stay healthy and productive or (b) When they go down, the kids can fill in. We all know what has happened. The bench has been aweful, the kids can't play, and Ozzie doesn't use the same lineup 2 nights in a row so how can we ever get in a groove.

Then the same thing with the bullpen. Instead of going after (and yes maybe slightly overpaying) for a proven arm like a Jamie Walker, we put the ball in the hands of Kids who throw really hard but all have control issues. Its almost like we tried to find 5-8 Diamonds in the rough to fill out this team in spots we need production from. And to top it all off, when the Draft rolls along (and a very important draft after how terrible we have drafted and developed in the past), we again went for power pitching instead of any solid offensive prospects (which our entire system has maybe 1 or 2 of in Sweeney and Fields) and passed on one of the top 3 arms in the draft (albeit a tough sign) and watched him go to the Tigers.

Kenny has always earned the benefit of the doubt from me, until the last few days. It makes me laugh how we mock the Indians getting Borowski when we got Sisco and Aardsma for next to nothing, but it just has not worked out. Kenny already had his work cut out for him next offseason, because if/when Buehrle and Dye walk (or at this rate get dealt) it is going to be a big hit, and if we replace them from within and that too fails, Kenny might cost himself a job.

At this point I would say bring up Broadway and Floyd, put them in the pen, and see if they can't settle down the ship. I just feel like we weren't prepared this year and we took way too many gambles in the offseason. (and I admit, SOME injuries like Ozuna you just can't prepare for).

I guess for every Jermaine Dye you steal on the market, you even out with a group of Aardsma Sisco and CO.

kittle42
06-12-2007, 10:47 AM
The answer, in my opinion, is "a lot."

The bullpen lineup was inexcusable. Great article in the Sun-Times by Greg Couch last week or two weeks ago where he interviewed the SD GM about bullpens since both Chicago ones suck and theirs has been the best in the majors for a couple years. His philospohy was all about control guys with movement, the complete opposite of Williams and, for the most part, Hendry.

Pods was a huge question mark. Erstad would have been a great pickup 6 years ago. SS sucked.

hose
06-12-2007, 10:48 AM
I can't hold Kenny responsible for the Sox having the worse O in MLB.

If MacDougal would have pitched 1/2 way decent and the Sox were healthy and not in a horrific offensive slump I think they could have been within 5 games and a good run away from being in first.

lakeviewsoxfan
06-12-2007, 10:50 AM
100% of the blame has to fall on his shoulders. How Walker is still around baffles me.

BainesHOF
06-12-2007, 10:50 AM
As bad as we are, most of the blame falls on the players, especially Konerko and Dye.

I blame Williams for thinking we were going to somehow turn Aardsma and Sisco into good pitchers. It was arrogant to think that Cooper could turn them into something they're not. It was also unfair to Cooper. And cheap.

I also blame Williams for not acquiring either a stud left or center fielder. We received a predictable outcome for relying on injury-prone Podsednik and Erstad didn't make any sense. It would have been understandable to gamble with one, but inexcusable to gamble on both.

Also, Williams should have received more for Garcia.

Frontman
06-12-2007, 10:51 AM
There is plenty of blame to go around. KW has some on his plate, Ozzie has some, and the players have the bulk of it. You can't blame Ozzie/Greg Walker/etc if players fail to execute what they already know how to do.

Domeshot17
06-12-2007, 10:54 AM
I can't hold Kenny responsible for the Sox having the worse O in MLB.

If MacDougal would have pitched 1/2 way decent and the Sox were healthy and not in a horrific offensive slump I think they could have been within 5 games and a good run away from being in first.

My only thing here was I like Mac a lot (should probably change my sig pic soon), but he wasn't ever a stellar pitcher. He gave us a hell of a few months last year, but he never was dominant in KC. He was always like this. Big time movement on his pitches, throws hard, but when he gets in funks and loses control, he can't regain it.

nevr say dye sox
06-12-2007, 10:55 AM
the way the sox draft is not who is the best talent, but who is the best value. The minors haven't had many draft picks come thru and the reason why is, afte the huge sigining bounus given to Joe Borchard they are reluctant to draft high ceiling guys they'll have to pay with out getting anything in return. By the time a prospect becomes a bust, he doesn't even reach the Major Club level. Instead we draft a guy who won't cost much, but in return probably won't be an impact player in the Major's. However if it turns out that he is good, we got them on the cheap.

KW is a huge reason this team sucks! Every trade or siging he tries to catch lighting in a bottle. One time I would like the Sox to sign a player that they thought was good. Not because they think they got him cheap and may turn out to be good!

SBSoxFan
06-12-2007, 11:10 AM
This won't be a popular thread in my return Im sure, but I had a real interesting discussion about this with some friends after last nights game. How much of this disappointment should be put on Kenny? Part of me is like, this is just a bad run, half our everyday lineup has been injured, but we really weren't prepared this season. We knew Pods was a big injury risk coming off his surgery and did not get a suitable replacement who could lead off. We knew Brian was 50/50 to suck again, and his replacement was another big time injury risk. With the offense, Kenny rolled the dice bigtime that one of 2 things would happen: (a) All those guys plus Crede and an aging Thome stay healthy and productive or (b) When they go down, the kids can fill in. We all know what has happened. The bench has been aweful, the kids can't play, and Ozzie doesn't use the same lineup 2 nights in a row so how can we ever get in a groove.

Then the same thing with the bullpen. Instead of going after (and yes maybe slightly overpaying) for a proven arm like a Jamie Walker, we put the ball in the hands of Kids who throw really hard but all have control issues. Its almost like we tried to find 5-8 Diamonds in the rough to fill out this team in spots we need production from. And to top it all off, when the Draft rolls along (and a very important draft after how terrible we have drafted and developed in the past), we again went for power pitching instead of any solid offensive prospects (which our entire system has maybe 1 or 2 of in Sweeney and Fields) and passed on one of the top 3 arms in the draft (albeit a tough sign) and watched him go to the Tigers.

Kenny has always earned the benefit of the doubt from me, until the last few days. It makes me laugh how we mock the Indians getting Borowski when we got Sisco and Aardsma for next to nothing, but it just has not worked out. Kenny already had his work cut out for him next offseason, because if/when Buehrle and Dye walk (or at this rate get dealt) it is going to be a big hit, and if we replace them from within and that too fails, Kenny might cost himself a job.

At this point I would say bring up Broadway and Floyd, put them in the pen, and see if they can't settle down the ship. I just feel like we weren't prepared this year and we took way too many gambles in the offseason. (and I admit, SOME injuries like Ozuna you just can't prepare for).

I guess for every Jermaine Dye you steal on the market, you even out with a group of Aardsma Sisco and CO.

Most of what you purport to know was, at best, speculation. In hindsight it turned out to be true. Going by the number of games they've played in their careers, neither Pods nor Erstad are "big time injury risks". No one "knew" Konerko, AJ, Iguchi, Crede, and Dye would be so bad offensively for so long. Everyone is "aging". Thome is the least of the offensive woes. The bullpen was a bright spot in April. No one "knew" they'd tank so drastically.

The seasons been bad enough, let's not make it worse by confusing knowledge with hindsight when parsing the season to date. They still have 102 games to make things better.

Flight #24
06-12-2007, 11:10 AM
I can't hold Kenny responsible for the Sox having the worse O in MLB.



I can. Quite simply because he spouts crrap continuously about "grinding" and "execution", but this team is almost the antithesis of that. And it's been ~5 years of hearing that crap from Kenny, which means that if he indeed valued it you'd either a)see more guys on the team that could do it or b)see coaches changed to get ones who can teach it.

Instead, you have what the Sox have - guys who can't, the same coaches who can't or won't teach them how, and when we call up guys from the minors, you see the same thing which tells me that that lack of followthrough on his "mantra" is carrying over to the farm.

Which tells me that it's just lip service Kenny's paying to execution. For that, I blame him.

Oh yeah, and for the bullpen and for "shoring up" risky spots with other risky players. Like it was all that surprising that Pods & Erstad would get hurt or that Anderson would need to get sent down. Shocker.

And I like Mack, but they completely misjudged his defensive ability at 3B and CF (where he was touted as the backup when they acquired him), which left them with a bench player who can't really play a position except LF or maybe RF, and can't do that all that well.

itsnotrequired
06-12-2007, 11:11 AM
One time I would like the Sox to sign a player that they thought was good. Not because they think they got him cheap and may turn out to be good!

Do you honestly believe this is KW's philosophy?

infohawk
06-12-2007, 11:12 AM
Also, Williams should have received more for Garcia.
In retrospect, KW got two young pitchers for a guy going into the last year of his contract who ended up injured to boot. You'd have to think KW took the best deal available. Again, with 20/20 hindsight, had he hung on to Freddy with the intention of moving him at the deadline, he probably wouldn't have been able to because of the injury problems. We would have likely lost Freddy and received nothing in return. Again, in retrospect it's hard to criticize the deal. I will say that, at the time, I also believed he hadn't gotten enough back in the trade.

Flight #24
06-12-2007, 11:13 AM
Most of what you purport to know was, at best, speculation. In hindsight it turned out to be true. Going by the number of games they've played in their careers, neither Pods nor Erstad are "big time injury risks". No one "knew" Konerko, AJ, Iguchi, Crede, and Dye would be so bad offensively for so long. Everyone is "aging". Thome is the least of the offensive woes. The bullpen was a bright spot in April. No one "knew" they'd tank so drastically.


Sisco, Aardsma, and even McDougal are all doing what they did for most of the past year or 2 in the bigs: exhibiting wildness and inconsistency. By definition, that means you get some good (April) and some bad (May-June). That's fine if you have 1-2 of those guys and more reliable options the rest of the way. But when you go with 4 rookies in the pen and 2 guys who are a year removed from being close to castoffs, that's an incredibly high-risk pen. That's on Kenny.

And Pods was hurt for a good portion of the past year, including the offseason. Erstad hasn't been healthy and productive for a long stretch in a while & while I liked the pickup, I assumed they'd play him half-time to keep him healthy. And anyone with half an eye on the situation knew BA wasn't likely to last long. So who exactly was Kenny anticipating would be the regular CF?

hose
06-12-2007, 11:14 AM
After further review I have to toss Kenny under the bus for our minor league situation.

Minn.,Oak, Atlanta plug in players from their minor league system to help out but the Sox have nothing and go to the scrap heap for guys like Terrio. :mad:

SoxxoS
06-12-2007, 11:18 AM
In regards to the bullpen - I don't know if it's like finding 5 "diamonds in the rough" ...b/c look at what happened with Politte and Jenks (in 2005) and Thornton last year. Those were all guys off the scrap heap.

Did Kenny get over confident b/c of finding those three guys...who HAPPENED to be hard throwers? - Now THAT is a high possibility.

I fault him for relying too much on Sisco - but I dont fault KW too much for relying on Macdougal, who had a very good second half with the Sox last year.

And has hose just said - Our minor league system is NOT where it needs to be. Taking low ceiling guys like Broadway, McCollough and Royce ****ing Ring is not a great way to go about things, IMO.

Flight #24
06-12-2007, 11:23 AM
Do you honestly believe this is KW's philosophy?

No, but there is no debate that they stay away from guys who might demand high bonuses. In general, I'm not against that philosophy. But as a big market team that's generally drafted low (and apparently not done a stellar job of it), I think one of the things you can do is snag the "signability" guys. That was especially true this year when the Sox 2d pick was going to be so much later because of the sandwich round size.

For example, the Tigers - who I don't think have a significantly larger revenue base than the Sox - picked a guy who was arguably (according to the "experts") the best or 2d best pitcher in the draft. They did the same thing last year (although they drafted him higher). Poreda sounds like a good get, but it's disappointing to think that the Sox might have had a guy ranked higher (or even significantly higher) and passed.

The ideal would be for the Sox to maintain a $100M-$120M payroll and no go over that, but also put $$$ into the minors via signing bonuses, academies, scouting budgets, and if necessary, poaching farm guys and coaches away from the Twins. There's no reason why they can't put together a Twins-like organization that has the money to get and retain their better players.

ZombieRob
06-12-2007, 11:25 AM
Like an earlier poster said"everyone has some on their plate". the time to move Dye was in the offseason.Especially when the Sox knew signing him after 2007 was unlikely.I hear K.W say when we get our table setters back.Blah Blah.How good was Pods after his injury last year? So what makes K.W think he'll be effective this year when he comes back? Right now our most valuable player is Buerhle.


I'd dangle Buerhle,Gooch and a top prospect for Melky.Cano.

BainesHOF
06-12-2007, 11:25 AM
In retrospect, KW got two young pitchers for a guy going into the last year of his contract who ended up injured to boot. You'd have to think KW took the best deal available. Again, with 20/20 hindsight, had he hung on to Freddy with the intention of moving him at the deadline, he probably wouldn't have been able to because of the injury problems. We would have likely lost Freddy and received nothing in return. Again, in retrospect it's hard to criticize the deal.

No it's not.

What's happened to Garcia after the trade is irrelevant in this argument. We should have received more for a pitcher who went 17-9 in 2006 than a "maybe" in Gio and mentally weak Floyd. We needed talent to help us now.

DumpJerry
06-12-2007, 11:27 AM
After further review I have to toss Kenny under the bus for our minor league situation.

Minn.,Oak, Atlanta plug in players from their minor league system to help out but the Sox have nothing and go to the scrap heap for guys like Terrio. :mad:
Who is Terrio?

Any player signing or trade is a crap shoot. Some players suddenly improve with the new scenery, some fall apart. There are no sure bets.

Another reality is that Kenny can sit in his office and list the players on other teams he would love to have, but if those teams are not interested in dealing, then we can't get those players until, and IF, they become free agents. Teams may not want to deal with the Sox because we might not have anyone to offer to meet their needs, or they don't want to make us stronger.

While everyone in the organization shares some blame, it is too simplistic to blame Kenny for the current mess.

ZombieRob
06-12-2007, 11:28 AM
No, but there is no debate that they stay away from guys who might demand high bonuses. In general, I'm not against that philosophy. But as a big market team that's generally drafted low (and apparently not done a stellar job of it), I think one of the things you can do is snag the "signability" guys. That was especially true this year when the Sox 2d pick was going to be so much later because of the sandwich round size.

For example, the Tigers - who I don't think have a significantly larger revenue base than the Sox - picked a guy who was arguably (according to the "experts") the best or 2d best pitcher in the draft. They did the same thing last year (although they drafted him higher). Poreda sounds like a good get, but it's disappointing to think that the Sox might have had a guy ranked higher (or even significantly higher) and passed.

The ideal would be for the Sox to maintain a $100M-$120M payroll and no go over that, but also put $$$ into the minors via signing bonuses, academies, scouting budgets, and if necessary, poaching farm guys and coaches away from the Twins. There's no reason why they can't put together a Twins-like organization that has the money to get and retain their better players.

Isn't the Sox actual payroll more around 70 million,minus the Phillies and D'backs paying partial salaries to Thome and Javy? thats why i'm not so convinced the Sox will spend the $ in the offseason.

ZombieRob
06-12-2007, 11:30 AM
Who is Terrio?

Any player signing or trade is a crap shoot. Some players suddenly improve with the new scenery, some fall apart. There are no sure bets.

Another reality is that Kenny can sit in his office and list the players on other teams he would love to have, but if those teams are not interested in dealing, then we can't get those players until, and IF, they become free agents. Teams may not want to deal with the Sox because we might not have anyone to offer to meet their needs, or they don't want to make us stronger.

While everyone in the organization shares some blame, it is too simplistic to blame Kenny for the current mess.

Wouldn't you say Kenny is in a bad spot? If you were a G.M of another team is there really anyone on the Sox who stands out to you besides Buerhle?

itsnotrequired
06-12-2007, 11:31 AM
No it's not.

What's happened to Garcia after the trade is irrelevant in this argument. We should have received more for a pitcher who went 17-9 in 2006 than a "maybe" in Gio and mentally weak Floyd. We needed talent to help us now.

I don't believe the Sox had the money to pay for a 17-9 type of pitcher. The Sox shed Garcia's $10 million salary and payroll STILL went up $6 million (give or take).

Paulwny
06-12-2007, 11:32 AM
No, but there is no debate that they stay away from guys who might demand high bonuses. In general, I'm not against that philosophy. But as a big market team that's generally drafted low (and apparently not done a stellar job of it), I think one of the things you can do is snag the "signability" guys. That was especially true this year when the Sox 2d pick was going to be so much later because of the sandwich round size.

For example, the Tigers - who I don't think have a significantly larger revenue base than the Sox - picked a guy who was arguably (according to the "experts") the best or 2d best pitcher in the draft. They did the same thing last year (although they drafted him higher). Poreda sounds like a good get, but it's disappointing to think that the Sox might have had a guy ranked higher (or even significantly higher) and passed.

The ideal would be for the Sox to maintain a $100M-$120M payroll and no go over that, but also put $$$ into the minors via signing bonuses, academies, scouting budgets, and if necessary, poaching farm guys and coaches away from the Twins. There's no reason why they can't put together a Twins-like organization that has the money to get and retain their better players.

If this is the case then it's JR who is accountable. KW can only work with the amount of money JR's willing to spend on these items.

itsnotrequired
06-12-2007, 11:32 AM
Isn't the Sox actual payroll more around 70 million,minus the Phillies and D'backs paying partial salaries to Thome and Javy? thats why i'm not so convinced the Sox will spend the $ in the offseason.

It is closer to $98 million. The Sox are getting about $9.5 million from other clubs for Thome/Vazquez.

SBSoxFan
06-12-2007, 11:34 AM
Sisco, Aardsma, and even McDougal are all doing what they did for most of the past year or 2 in the bigs: exhibiting wildness and inconsistency. By definition, that means you get some good (April) and some bad (May-June). That's fine if you have 1-2 of those guys and more reliable options the rest of the way. But when you go with 4 rookies in the pen and 2 guys who are a year removed from being close to castoffs, that's an incredibly high-risk pen. That's on Kenny.

This is only Sisco's thirdy year in the bigs so he has no history, Aardsma was hurt less by wildness than being hit, and MacDougal's numbers looked pretty good in 2005 and 2006.

And Pods was hurt for a good portion of the past year, including the offseason. Erstad hasn't been healthy and productive for a long stretch in a while & while I liked the pickup, I assumed they'd play him half-time to keep him healthy. And anyone with half an eye on the situation knew BA wasn't likely to last long. So who exactly was Kenny anticipating would be the regular CF?

Pods played in more games in 2006 than in 2005. Do you mean he was playing hurt last year? And in the offseason he was recovering from surgery. Is that defined as being hurt? This year's injury was a fluke. Erstad was hurt in '03 and '06. In between he's played in 278 games. Before that he averaged 146 games over 6 years. The injury risk thing is unfounded and getting old. In fact, if anyone had an injury history it would be MacDougal.

I don't know who Kenny anticipated playing CF. Perhaps he thought BA and Erstad would be able to cover it. This might have worked with the pre-all-star-break 2006 offense.

The Immigrant
06-12-2007, 11:38 AM
KW can only work with the amount of money JR's willing to spend on these items.

The 5th highest payroll in MLB should be plenty for KW to "work with."

The Immigrant
06-12-2007, 11:39 AM
It is closer to $98 million. The Sox are getting about $9.5 million from other clubs for Thome/Vazquez.

It is $108 million when you include the money thrown in for Thome and Vazquez.

hose
06-12-2007, 11:41 AM
Who is Terrio?

you know, dat guy over der in center field:D:

Paulwny
06-12-2007, 11:42 AM
The 5th highest payroll in MLB should be plenty for KW to "work with."

But JR may be spending less on the minor league system for this payroll. Read Flight#24's post, #16.

itsnotrequired
06-12-2007, 11:42 AM
It is $108 million when you include the money thrown in for Thome and Vazquez.

Right, so the actual money the Sox are paying out of their pocket is closer to $98 million.

:redneck

seventyseven
06-12-2007, 11:47 AM
The bullpen lineup was inexcusable. Great article in the Sun-Times by Greg Couch last week or two weeks ago where he interviewed the SD GM about bullpens since both Chicago ones suck and theirs has been the best in the majors for a couple years. His philospohy was all about control guys with movement, the complete opposite of Williams and, for the most part, Hendry.

And what the **** has SD won recently?

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 12:04 PM
What are the alternatives?

Yeah, we should have spent a buttload of cash on Juan Pierre/Dave Roberts and Julio Lugo. If only KW had done that we'd have more SB's, less payroll flexibility, no draft picks, and two more players who don't fit the longterm mold of the organization.

Bullpen guys go up and down, up and down. Yeah, we should have spent the money on Chad Braford/Jaime Walker and Riske/Dotel/Mota because again we'd be soooo much better then... come on. Kenny picked up some young pitching with upside and he's to blame for not splurging on veteran medicority? He took a chance, and as in Jenks and Thorton, sometimes they work out. But you can't ignore the Jenks and Thornton pickups and then say he went in the wrong direction with Sisco and Aardsma because he did the exact same thing in both cases.

Show me a lights out reliever who doesn't have control or injury problems, and I'll show you a guy who is going to cost at least one top prospect in a trade. Kenny added depth to the farm and added upside to the pitching staff. According to some of you he should have traded every last piece we had and also raised the payroll just to put all of our eggs in one basket this year. And with our injuries and overall crappy play from MacDougal and Thornton, we STILL would be on the outside looking in as far as the divisional race is concerned.

Had KW taken everything he had and gambled on 2007, he'd be run out of town after an 85-win finish this year. And whoever replaced him would have nothing to work with.

Bucky F. Dent
06-12-2007, 12:08 PM
IMHO, there are two primary problems with this team, the lack of offense and a horrible pen.

The lack of offense is a result of skilled players who are not executing and injuries. This is not Kenny's fault.

On the other hand, Kenny rolled the dice on the likes of Aardsma, Sisco, and MacDougall, and they have all come up snake eyes. This is Kenny's fault.

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 12:08 PM
And what the **** has SD won recently?
Exactly. And SD is a national league team in a pitchers ballpark. If KW built a pitching staff best suited for PetCo park our ERA would be at least a point higher than it is now. And even still, as good as SD's pen has been, outside of Hoffman I highly doubt there is anyone they have who is going to be a lights-out reliever his entire career. It's very difficult for a relief pitcher to have consistent success in the major leagues, especially in the AL.

Chicken Dinner
06-12-2007, 12:08 PM
Kenny is in charge of player acquisition, coaching, scouting, drafting, and the minor leagues for future talent. Who else are you going to blame? He played red and it came up black.

1917
06-12-2007, 12:11 PM
KW rolled the dice and held his breath coming into this season...he banked Pods would be healthy, be hoped Erstad would be healthy and play a solid CF and have at least a decent avg and if not, BA would come around....he banked that our core players of JD, JT, PK, AJ, Gooch and Crede would all be healthy and put up big #'s and carry us, he hoped Uribe off field distractions wouldnt be in his head...and he banked our SP would be solid and our BP could finish it off.....based on those numbers, he is 1-6...rolled snake eye's!!
I dont blame Walker, we are a Veteran team, Walker was a genuis at one point, the way he brought Dye back, got PK out of his funk he had in 2003, got Thome back on track after his injury in 2005, got Gooch to adjust to American pitching, helped Crede live up to his potential....I blame it on KW and I blame it on our players having their heads up their butts. Really it's like they dont care, I don't see them excited or pumped, they are just going thru the motions....Season over...TAPS TAPS TAPS. Prove me wrong guys, I will gladly eat a buffet of Crow!

itsnotrequired
06-12-2007, 12:12 PM
Kenny is in charge of player acquisition, coaching, scouting, drafting, and the minor leagues for future talent. Who else are you going to blame? He played red and it came up black.

It isn't that simple and you know it.

INSox56
06-12-2007, 12:21 PM
Many talk a lot about how the minor league system got bolstered this past offseason in pitching depth, with which I agree. However, there were a number of pieces written on how KW was trying to rebuild and compete at the same time and it wouldn't work. I thought they were crazy...and I still do somewhat (because it's not exactly like we're hitting well and just falling a couple pieces short). But I'm starting to see what they were talking about.

If you're trying to rebuild, do it while your pieces have their highest value, not half-assed and try to do it piecemeal over a few years. Now, we're basically screwed as far as rebuilding...Dye's trade value is shot, Crede's is beyond laughable right now, Buehrle's is somewhat high, Iguchi's going to be worth more to the Sox than any other team(as some scouts have said)... If we would have done a total rebuild last offseason while many of our pieces were still hot (and possibly trade Buehrle if he got hot as he is this year, or re-sign him if he wasn't doing that great this year), it would have been a very very good job.

I understand the whole theory of a fire sale as it relates to the fans, but what are we looking at now...We won't (possibly) be able to get very much in return for many of our pieces that may or may not be leaving via FA. Or some of them may just be unworthy to re-sign. So when those players leave, or we re-sign them and they continue to underperform, where are we then?

I can understand the rationale for not trading to rebuild, have a fire sale if you will. But if you're trying to compete, would you risk it with injury-prone Pods or with starting Erstad instead of having him come off the bench? Would you risk such a hopeful season on wildly uncontrollable guys like Sisco and Aardsma if pen's are so important?

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 12:22 PM
IMHO, there are two primary problems with this team, the lack of offense and a horrible pen.

The lack of offense is a result of skilled players who are not executing and injuries. This is not Kenny's fault.

On the other hand, Kenny rolled the dice on the likes of Aardsma, Sisco, and MacDougall, and they have all come up snake eyes. This is Kenny's fault.
Kenny is the GM. Everything is his fault, the good and the bad. Every move he makes he has to take full responsibility for.

The laughable part though is people trying to talk about his philosophy like there is something terribly wrong with the way he does buisness.

Being a GM is being a gambler, especially in baseball where raw tools and work ethic does not translate anywhere near as well as it does in other sports. When he takes a higher risk, higher reward approach to the bullpen and selects young power arms instead of overpriced veterans with unspectacular stuff, you can't say that is a bad approach when he's struck gold there before. If the situation was reversed and he picked up Scott Schoenweis and re-signed Riske and maybe another veteran, people would be
calling him Jim Hendry and demanding that he revert to the approach he took when he acquired Jenks and Thornton.

The only point that I saw in this thread that you can really call out KW on is over the draft. His safe picks the last couple years haven't worked. But he has changed that, although he still has shied away from taking the best available players due to contract issues. Hopefully if Porcello signs and dominates in High-A with the Tigers, KW will re-think that approach and the organization will put Borchard behind them and take bigger chances in the first round.

Bucky F. Dent
06-12-2007, 12:22 PM
KW rolled the dice and held his breath coming into this season...he banked Pods would be healthy, be hoped Erstad would be healthy and play a solid CF and have at least a decent avg and if not, BA would come around....he banked that our core players of JD, JT, PK, AJ, Gooch and Crede would all be healthy and put up big #'s and carry us, he hoped Uribe off field distractions wouldnt be in his head...and he banked our SP would be solid and our BP could finish it off.....based on those numbers, he is 1-6...rolled snake eye's!!



Doesn't every GM in the league bank on the fact that his core players will stay healthy and play to their potential?

russ99
06-12-2007, 12:22 PM
Maybe we should let a full season go by before casting complete blame on Kenny for the Sox' shortcomings...

Let's break this down:

Offense:
Pods/Erstad - injuries.
Iguchi - slow start but picking up and still pretty solid defensively.
Thome - pretty much as expected.
Konerko - streaky hitter - been through this before - he'll break out of it.
Dye - massive failure, especially in a contract year. Is he hurt more than we know?
Crede - injury
A.J. - a little below expectations, but still a decent year. Not a 3-4-5 hitter.
Mackowiak - a utility player forced into a starting role.
Uribe - very streaky hitter, anything but usual defensive excellence a bonus

Bench: all MLB benches (other than rich teams who can pay for a decent one) are a crapshoot, we're lucky Cintron, Terrero and Hall can contribute.

Starting staff - pretty darn good. My only gripe is can these guys go seven innings regularly as in 2005 to give the bullpen a bit of a break?

Bullpen - other than Jenks, Thornton and (sometimes) Logan a complete disaster.

--

So we only can really fault Kenny for not doing is not getting a proven set-up guy and a good backup outfielder who has no injury concerns and can play good defense in the offseason.

As for what we're getting from the minor leagues that was the failings of drafts/signings from 3-5 years ago, and we still have some decent prospects on the farm, especially Sweeney and the starters.

Kenny did put the scouting staff on notice before the season, but we probably won't see results from that for another 1-3 years.

The onus on Kenny is what he does in the next 2 months before the deadline to shore up our weaknesses and cover for injuries. I think it' still way to early to pack it in and white-flag it.

thepaulbowski
06-12-2007, 12:29 PM
Yes, because as a leader of this organization he bears responsibility when things go well or when they go bad. That being said, one year is not an accurate reflection, you have to look at the entire body of work.

INSox56
06-12-2007, 12:34 PM
...Don't get me wrong with my above comments, though. I don't necessarily blame KW for this season...I feel that it's mostly on the players. I do blame him for possibly setting us up for a stretch of some nasty years to come. We'll see, I'm not a GM and don't know what's going on in his mind though. But we have the potential to really suck here for a few.

DumpJerry
06-12-2007, 12:51 PM
Wouldn't you say Kenny is in a bad spot? If you were a G.M of another team is there really anyone on the Sox who stands out to you besides Buerhle?
The starters are getting the job done. If they get 4 runs per game in support, they would have very enviable W-L records.

The defense has been pretty good, on balance.

The problem is the hitting (something we did not see coming) and bullpen (which was a question mark given all the new faces and only Jenks from the 2005 squad).

Fix those two areas and we won't lose another game.

minutia
06-12-2007, 12:59 PM
IMHO, there are two primary problems with this team, the lack of offense and a horrible pen.

The lack of offense is a result of skilled players who are not executing and injuries. This is not Kenny's fault.

On the other hand, Kenny rolled the dice on the likes of Aardsma, Sisco, and MacDougall, and they have all come up snake eyes. This is Kenny's fault.
I tend to think that Aardsma, Sisco and MacDougall can get their control issues resolved and in the end turn out to be really good acquisitions. I tend to think this because they are realativly young and I believe can adapt. I don't know if the pen can be completely to blame for absolutely no offensive support. It is my feeling that starting pitching and the pen get themselves painted into corrners with that 1 bad inning and received no help with scoring runs. This may be naive or reaveal an overall lack of knowledge on my part but I just have a feeling that in the future it will all work itself out.
Also, is it just me or is there an awful lot of swinging for the fences going on or is that just a symptom of the players frustration at bat?

The Immigrant
06-12-2007, 01:03 PM
We should have received more for a pitcher who went 17-9 in 2006 than a "maybe" in Gio and mentally weak Floyd. We needed talent to help us now.

Gavin Floyd (24 - AAA)
3.60 ERA / 65.1 IP / 55 K / 1.36 WHIP

Gio Gonzalez (21 - AA)
2.87 ERA / 69 IP / 88 K / 1.12 WHIP

Regardless of Garcia's current injury status, this trade was a successful one for the Sox.

1917
06-12-2007, 01:07 PM
Doesn't every GM in the league bank on the fact that his core players will stay healthy and play to their potential?

Yes but he banked on Erstad, with a looong history of health problems, Crede who they knew needed back surgury, Pods who has been slowed down since Aug of 2005....he knew about these 3, and he knew Thome would be on the DL at least once with his age and nagging injury's...he banked that all would be OK and it wasn't...the top 3 are out and JT has been on the DL once already...

oeo
06-12-2007, 01:12 PM
No it's not.

What's happened to Garcia after the trade is irrelevant in this argument. We should have received more for a pitcher who went 17-9 in 2006 than a "maybe" in Gio and mentally weak Floyd. We needed talent to help us now.

Why should it be irrelevant? Garcia's velocity was down last year, maybe no one wanted to take a chance on him. I find it really hard to believe that Kenny would have taken this deal if he thought he could get much more. Face it: Garcia's value wasn't as high as we thought it would be.

Lip Man 1
06-12-2007, 01:16 PM
Part of Kenny's decision making process may have been based on his contention that the free agent market this off season will "correct" itself.

If so then before we can make any real evaluations we have to wait and see if in fact, this happens. Kenny may have felt that he could have afforded to take more chances this season because of they didn't work he'd be in position to fix them in the off season.

Personally I don't think the market will fall but we've got to wait and see.

Lip

chisoxmike
06-12-2007, 01:17 PM
100% to blame.

Aardsma & Sisco.

Those guys have a track record of nothing. Yet, for some reason he thinks just becuase they throw 95mph, they are great. There's nothing in our minor league system and we have watched this team get old and slower in the course of one season.

Hitmen77
06-12-2007, 01:24 PM
No it's not.

What's happened to Garcia after the trade is irrelevant in this argument. We should have received more for a pitcher who went 17-9 in 2006 than a "maybe" in Gio and mentally weak Floyd. We needed talent to help us now.

I think the problem is that, unlike you, the 29 GMs Kenny has to deal with were looking at more than just Freddy's 2006 win total in determining his trade value.

kittle42
06-12-2007, 01:48 PM
And what the **** has SD won recently?

This is irrelevant, and I was waiting for this argument, honestly, because it is the token KW defense.

San Diego's bullpen is better than the Sox pen, and it was last year, and the two teams' philosophies on constructing a good bullpen could not be more different.

Flight #24
06-12-2007, 01:58 PM
This is only Sisco's thirdy year in the bigs so he has no history, Aardsma was hurt less by wildness than being hit, and MacDougal's numbers looked pretty good in 2005 and 2006.
Sisco's history has been control issues, even in the minors. And in '06 he put up 40 BBs / 52 Ks in 65 IP - consistent with that history. Aardsma had a total of 63 IP in the bigs heading into '07. I'm not down on trading for them, I'm down on relying on both of them (AND Masset AND Thornton) in the bullpen of a "contender". I fully expect all of these guys to be good pitchers, but the younger ones are going to struggle while they learn and improve. That shouldn't have been planned to happen in the bigs.



Pods played in more games in 2006 than in 2005. Do you mean he was playing hurt last year? And in the offseason he was recovering from surgery. Is that defined as being hurt? This year's injury was a fluke. Erstad was hurt in '03 and '06. In between he's played in 278 games. Before that he averaged 146 games over 6 years. The injury risk thing is unfounded and getting old. In fact, if anyone had an injury history it would be MacDougal.

I don't know who Kenny anticipated playing CF. Perhaps he thought BA and Erstad would be able to cover it. This might have worked with the pre-all-star-break 2006 offense.

Erstad missed pretty much all of 2006. He missed a chunk of time in 2004 as well. He was healthy in 2005, but mediocre as a hitter. The on-again/off-again nature makes him at least somewhat risky.

As for Pods, here's the trend: Groin injury in 2005 - supposedly healthy, but seems nagged by that injury in 2006 (didn't run like he was healthy) - groin injury in the 2006-7 offseason. Doesn't sound like a good injury risk to me. And if he was healthy in 2006, he didn't play very well, which would make him risky in a different way.

I'm not down on Kenny taking risks - but for a team that's supposed to contend, he took a ton of them, and he lumped them in together by backing up one risk with another (i.e. BA with Erstad).

The only thing I can think of is that Kenny decided that this team wasn't likely to be a real contender but he couldn't say that publicly. So he focused his moves on a)the future, even if it hurt the present and b)financial flexibility (for the future to sign FAs). Otherwise, he just plain screwed up.

bryPt
06-12-2007, 02:06 PM
man, just one year ago, we were all praising KW as the messiah. He had the midas touch, he could do no wrong. He won us a WS and we all bowed down to his greatness.

Now we all want to burn him at the stake and blame him for everything that is wrong with the organization? My hot dog was a little overcooked at the last game I was at, where the hell is KW's cell phone so I can call and blame him for that as well?

TEAM GAME, no individual is to blame here. Blame the entire team for this failure. From top to bottom, there has been errors. From KW over judging talent, to Ozzie pulling a starter one batter to soon, to Konerko walking to home plate with his shoulders slumped down already thinking he was going to make an out, to Pods maybe rushing back from injury, to bullpen failures, to bad base running, they are ALL to blame.

Except for Roger Bossard, the guy is flawless.

nevr say dye sox
06-12-2007, 02:10 PM
wasn't it KW who said in the off season that he wasn't going to over pay for FA because he needs to build a team for the future. We have old broken down players with no trade value, and no prospects what so ever to fill in. Add that to the un willingness to go out and sign good free agents makes for a disaster in the future to come.

Look on the bright side, I'll be able to move my season tickets closer to home plate when everybody drops their season tickets because we bring back Craig Grabeck and Lyle Mouton. Maybe we can bring back Chris Snopek and the rest of the **** that played for us over the years!

bryPt
06-12-2007, 02:12 PM
Darn, I forgot to say who is the biggest to blame for all this:

my wife, or me (can't tell which one)

Since my wife purchased me an official World Series Paul Konerko Jersey for my birthday, the Sox have gone:

4-14.

I am jinxed.

I will take paypal donations to burn it to end this slide.

MRM
06-12-2007, 02:38 PM
Most of what you purport to know was, at best, speculation. In hindsight it turned out to be true. Going by the number of games they've played in their careers, neither Pods nor Erstad are "big time injury risks". No one "knew" Konerko, AJ, Iguchi, Crede, and Dye would be so bad offensively for so long. Everyone is "aging". Thome is the least of the offensive woes. The bullpen was a bright spot in April. No one "knew" they'd tank so drastically.

The seasons been bad enough, let's not make it worse by confusing knowledge with hindsight when parsing the season to date. They still have 102 games to make things better.

A voice of reason in an increasingly unreasonable fan base.

kittle42
06-12-2007, 02:41 PM
A voice of reason in an increasingly unreasonable fan base.

I prefer "demanding" to "unreasonable."

oeo
06-12-2007, 02:43 PM
San Diego's bullpen is better than the Sox pen, and it was last year, and the two teams' philosophies on constructing a good bullpen could not be more different.

Kenny used his "philosophy" once. Unfortunately it backfired and he needs to try something different, but it's not like he goes into every season bringing in a bunch of young fireballers.

ZombieRob
06-12-2007, 02:46 PM
Part of Kenny's decision making process may have been based on his contention that the free agent market this off season will "correct" itself.

If so then before we can make any real evaluations we have to wait and see if in fact, this happens. Kenny may have felt that he could have afforded to take more chances this season because of they didn't work he'd be in position to fix them in the off season.

Personally I don't think the market will fall but we've got to wait and see.

Lip

I agree about the market.If Buerhle commands near Zito figures and by all accounts probably deserves it based on numbers alone,I think we seen the last of Buerhle in a Sox uniform.

MRM
06-12-2007, 02:48 PM
We should have received more for a pitcher who went 17-9 in 2006 than a "maybe" in Gio and mentally weak Floyd. We needed talent to help us now.

Garcia is in his walk year, had major velocity problems much of last season, and was developing a penchant for blaming teammates when things didn't go his way. What exactly did you think Kenny was going to get for him? If anything, he got MORE than what Garcias true value was at the time.

FoulkeFan
06-12-2007, 02:49 PM
Here's an interesting take on KW's moves this year. I normally disagree with the guys at BP, but in this case I think they're exactly right. You have to be a subscriber to read the full article, but the part about the Sox is free.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6333&sessionstatus=notloggedin

"Williams has built a team that isn't going away, even if it doesn't look as if they're going back to the playoffs this season."

KyWhiSoxFan
06-12-2007, 02:58 PM
Ultimately, the GM puts the team together, so KW has to take much of the blame.

The biggest problem I had in the off season was not finding a replacement for Pods. I thought that last season he had lost two steps (not one) from 2005. There were a number of plays in balls hit in the infield where he was out by a step where he would have beaten it by two steps in 2005.

The leadoff position is critical to a team, and was crucial to the success of the Sox in 2005, but I thought that resigning Pods was a cheap move and just praying that he could come back to 2005 form. That was just hoping against hope.

This off season I imagine a priority will be a top of the order guy (plus putting a lot more speed in the lineup).

Flight #24
06-12-2007, 02:58 PM
Here's an interesting take on KW's moves this year. I normally disagree with the guys at BP, but in this case I think they're exactly right. You have to be a subscriber to read the full article, but the part about the Sox is free.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6333&sessionstatus=notloggedin

"Williams has built a team that isn't going away, even if it doesn't look as if they're going back to the playoffs this season."


This IMO is spot on. Another quote from the article: "I think Williams knew that the Sox would have to have everything go right to compete with the Indians (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=CLE) and Tigers (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=DET), but he's also slowly rebuilt a team that won't need a white flag trade to rebuild."

Trades with a focus on prospects and/or young guys who you could legitimately expect to struggle at least early on, but who could be impact arms by next year. No real offers anywhere close to market (at least per reports) for the pending FAs. And what FA signings there were were small and/or on short deals.

It's a problem because it's killing 2007 and because it leaves the fans with huge question marks for 2008. But as long as it's part of Kenny's plan and that plan includes targeted replacements (and of a higher or more stable caliber than the ones he got this past offseason), it'll be OK. His problem was that any announced rebuilding would be a killer for the Sox PR-wise. So he tries to do it "sneaky" and hope to last the year.

I could see Kenny targeting hitters, particularly in the MI and OF, slotting them in with rookies:Fields/Owens/Sweeney and hoping the pitchers develop quickly enough to contend in '08 (Danks continues to improve & Gio/Floyd/Broadway are decent) or if not, at last in '09. That would include resigning at least one of Garland & Buehrle (and hopefully both and maybe dealing Contreras).

Johnnydogs
06-12-2007, 03:18 PM
Sisco, Aardsma, and even McDougal are all doing what they did for most of the past year or 2 in the bigs: exhibiting wildness and inconsistency. By definition, that means you get some good (April) and some bad (May-June). That's fine if you have 1-2 of those guys and more reliable options the rest of the way. But when you go with 4 rookies in the pen and 2 guys who are a year removed from being close to castoffs, that's an incredibly high-risk pen. That's on Kenny.

And Pods was hurt for a good portion of the past year, including the offseason. Erstad hasn't been healthy and productive for a long stretch in a while & while I liked the pickup, I assumed they'd play him half-time to keep him healthy. And anyone with half an eye on the situation knew BA wasn't likely to last long. So who exactly was Kenny anticipating would be the regular CF?

The CF issue has really angered me for some time and it's a symptom of a larger problem in the Sox organization--the failures of our minor league system (including the inability to evaluate our own talent). We traded Chris Young (along with El Duque and Vizcaino) to the D'Backs for Javier, under .500--one bad inning, Vazquez and now I hear rumors that the Sox may try to trade him too because he's signed longterm and is less expensive to many teams who aren't willing to get into spending for FA pitchers. This guy is being compared to Grady Sizemore and Baseball Prospectus projects Chris Young to have a .283 BA/26 HR/77 RBI/.363 OBP/.541 SLG% if he gets 526 ABs. Right now he has 8 homers and 23 RBI in 194 ABs (and a perfect 6/6 in steals--eventhough he was out for a few games with a groin tweak). At minimum, this kid is on pace to hit about 16-20 home runs in his first full season in the MLs. Rather than trying to develop him into a future star (he was in the All-Star Futures game in the minors) we wasted time with Brian Anderson and then wasted money and energy with Erstad! We could have had a 23 year old kid in CF for years to come.

kevin57
06-13-2007, 12:28 AM
Some of it is Kenny's fault; much is not.

The middle relief was not well planned...and boy, is it showing.

Nobody could have or should have predicted that these bats would go this silent this long. Even here, though, Kenny deserves blame in that there is a lot of power (or should be) in the lineup, but no speed...NO speed and ability to move the runners over.

Knowing Kenny, there will be a huge shake-up next year. I read an article in the off-season that he's put his scouts on notice that there better be some good talent recruited for the minor league teams or they'll be looking for work elsewhere. I don't doubt he means what he says.

Irishsox1
06-13-2007, 12:37 AM
Kenny should be blamed for the bullpen only. They have all stayed healthy but failed. Yea, Pods, Erstad, Thome and Crede have been hurt, but injuries are part of the game. The other thing killing this Sox team is a little bit of luck....They are just not getting any. When they score 6, they give up 7. But, this was going to happen. When you go 11-1 in the playoffs with all the calls that went the Sox way, payback was going to happen sometime. To quote Goodfellas, "Sometimes you just gotta take a beating".

oeo
06-13-2007, 12:41 AM
Kenny should be blamed for the bullpen only. They have all stayed healthy but failed. Yea, Pods, Erstad, Thome and Crede have been hurt, but injuries are part of the game. The other thing killing this Sox team is a little bit of luck....They are just not getting any. When they score 6, they give up 7. But, this was going to happen. When you go 11-1 in the playoffs with all the calls that went the Sox way, payback was going to happen sometime. To quote Goodfellas, "Sometimes you just gotta take a beating".

The Sox didn't have everything go their way during that playoff run. They did two things: 1)Took advantage of the bad calls they did get and 2)Did not let the opposition take advantage of the bad calls that did not go in their favor.

Fortunately, we can't get any worse, so all we have is to go up.

TDog
06-13-2007, 01:10 AM
...
Fortunately, we can't get any worse, so all we have is to go up.

Can't get any worse? How long have you been watching White Sox baseball?

Nellie_Fox
06-13-2007, 02:11 AM
Can't get any worse? How long have you been watching White Sox baseball?I don't care what team you're a fan of, you have seen worse than this if you've been around very long. This is painful, but come on.

WhiteSox5187
06-13-2007, 02:26 AM
I don't care what team you're a fan of, you have seen worse than this if you've been around very long. This is painful, but come on.
This is like 2002 bad (which is the worst I can remember, though 1998 gives it a run for its money, other than that you have to go back to 1989), but it is nowhere near as bad as say 1968 or 1970. Or even 1988 or 1989.

Does Kenny deserve some of the blame? Oh yea, certainly. But not all of it. There was a caller on the post game show who was claiming Kenny deserves most of the blame and he made a poor arguement, but ultimately I think Kenny really screwed up on the bullpen. His idea was "Let's fix it by getting guys who throw hard" but none of those guys throw strikes...and all he had to do was look at the box scores in games they pitched to see that (see: Sisco, Andrew). You have a hard time seeing injuries of course, but then again, Erstad and Pods (the top third of our order) ARE injury prone and staying healthy for them was a huge question mark. He gambled and lost, had he won though, he would look like a bloody genius. Our draft picks and highly touted guys in the minors so far look like they just suck but it will take awhile to evaluate them. Ventura started out what? 0-46? How did that turn out? They also don't play sound fundamental baseball. I mean, honest to god, who on our team can bunt? When you're a rookie, I'm not expecting you to hit .300 but for the love of God, you oughta be able to get a ****ing bunt down! That is a direct result of our minor league coaching and it doesn't look good. Also as far the offensive struggles, no one could really have foreseen that the offense would be THIS bad, but I remember looking it over around Opening Day and saying "Who on this team can manufacture runs? Who on this team can move guys over?" Kenny should deserve SOME of the blame for that. However he got a steal with Danks and Massett and ultimately probably got as much as he could for Freddy. He COULD have maybe gotten a little more, but really, what else? Rowand? We had Erstad at the time, we didn't need Rowand. But again, hind sight is always 20/20.

It's time for us and Kenny to stop wondering "Where did I go wrong?" and start looking forward to 2008. This team doesn't have to blown apart. There are things worth keeping on this team. Kenny needs to correctly identify them and move things around accordingly so we have the money to keep them (that means Mark Buerhle) and get new guys (that means Ichiro).

roadrunner
06-13-2007, 02:50 AM
The downfall of this team as I see it was caused by KW's mistakes in judging outfield talent and in the construction of the outfield. Rowand and Young, both centerfielders, would have been the core to a young, productive and reasonably priced outfield that could hit at the top of the order for years. Imagine having Pods and Erstad off the bench (since Erstad was signed as a fourth outfielder anyway). Imagine adding one of this year's free agents to that outfield after Dye leaves. As much as I like Thome, aging highly paid one dimensional DH is a much easier position to replace (We already had the Big Hurt). In addition, Vazquez hasn't even been that much more productive than El Duque and now we're saddled with that contract.

I can cut KW some slack on the pen because most teams have lousy pens and those guys seem to come and go anyway. I think that the sting of the outfield situation will be felt over the next few years. I don't see a single outfielder in this organization (except maybe Dye of course) that I want starting next year - including Pods and Erstad. Instead of two decent centerfielders, we have none.

Of course this is 20/20 hindsight, it's just too bad KW had about 20/200 vision when it came to his outfield.

StillMissOzzie
06-13-2007, 02:57 AM
IMHO, there are two primary problems with this team, the lack of offense and a horrible pen.

The lack of offense is a result of skilled players who are not executing and injuries. This is not Kenny's fault.

On the other hand, Kenny rolled the dice on the likes of Aardsma, Sisco, and MacDougall, and they have all come up snake eyes. This is Kenny's fault.
For the most part, I concur. Retooling a bullpen is always a crapshoot, you're picking up arms that other GM's have decided that they no longer wanted, either in trades or free agency. The offense has sucked and that should be on the players' backs. PK has been down, JD looks awful in a salary drive year, Crede and Ozuna out for the year has also contributed to the offensive malais, and the rest of the outfield has been pathetic. Lowest batting avg in the AL, if not all of MLB...yucchhh!

Doesn't every GM in the league bank on the fact that his core players will stay healthy and play to their potential?
I dunno about the "bank on his core players stay(ing) healthy", but building an adequate bench is needed and an over-reliance on the injury prone is a sure train wreck.

SMO
:gulp:

MRM
06-13-2007, 03:17 AM
I dunno about the "bank on his core players stay(ing) healthy", but building an adequate bench is needed and an over-reliance on the injury prone is a sure train wreck.

What exactly is "injury prone"? It's the dumbest thing I hear year after year in football. In baseball it's beyond ridiculous. There is no such thing as injury prone.

Nellie_Fox
06-13-2007, 03:40 AM
What exactly is "injury prone"? It's the dumbest thing I hear year after year in football. In baseball it's beyond ridiculous. There is no such thing as injury prone.http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Ken-Griffey-Jr---2005-Studio-Plus-Photograph-C11813917.jpeg

Excuse me?

MRM
06-13-2007, 05:16 AM
This is like 2002 bad (which is the worst I can remember, though 1998 gives it a run for its money, other than that you have to go back to 1989), but it is nowhere near as bad as say 1968 or 1970. Or even 1988 or 1989.

Interesting.

2002 81-81
1998 80-80-1
1989 69-92
1968 67-95
1970 56-106

Let me guess, you had to go look up Sox records on the internet to make yourself feel better?

This team is MUCH better than the 2002 team was (the only one of the above you likely remember) I mean it's not even close.

Hitmen77
06-13-2007, 09:04 AM
Part of Kenny's decision making process may have been based on his contention that the free agent market this off season will "correct" itself.

If so then before we can make any real evaluations we have to wait and see if in fact, this happens. Kenny may have felt that he could have afforded to take more chances this season because of they didn't work he'd be in position to fix them in the off season.

Personally I don't think the market will fall but we've got to wait and see.

Lip

I don't think the market prices will fall, but I think KW's problem with the free agent market this past offseason was the size of the contracts PLUS the fact that they were going to mediocre players.

Players will still be looking for more money this winter, but from what I have seen - at least it will be better players on the market looking for big contracts.

billcissell
06-13-2007, 01:26 PM
Definition of injury prone: see north side of town, look under Kerry Wood or Mark Prior. See previous photo example of one Ken Griffey, Jr.

No such thing as injury prone? Think again.

Examples of players who don't seem to be injury prone? How about Cal Ripken, Jr., Billy Williams, Hank Aaron.

Maybe some guys just suck it up a little better and don't lett nagging injuries get the better of them. Unfortunately, some guys always seem to be less than 100%. I guess they would qualify as "injury prone".

RedHeadPaleHoser
06-13-2007, 01:33 PM
I prefer "demanding" to "unreasonable."

Well put. There's not one Sox fan I know that feels our wanting to win every year is unreasonable. KW, OG and JR took the Sox to a place that none of us had ever seen before. The fact that we want to return in not unreasonable; since more than 75% of the roster remains why not expect and hope for it to happen again?

I am no position to blame anyone, but I feel that responsibility lies in the players hired to do (or in this case, NOT do) their jobs.

Hitmen77
06-13-2007, 02:32 PM
the way the sox draft is not who is the best talent, but who is the best value. The minors haven't had many draft picks come thru and the reason why is, afte the huge sigining bounus given to Joe Borchard they are reluctant to draft high ceiling guys they'll have to pay with out getting anything in return. By the time a prospect becomes a bust, he doesn't even reach the Major Club level. Instead we draft a guy who won't cost much, but in return probably won't be an impact player in the Major's. However if it turns out that he is good, we got them on the cheap.

KW is a huge reason this team sucks! Every trade or siging he tries to catch lighting in a bottle. One time I would like the Sox to sign a player that they thought was good. Not because they think they got him cheap and may turn out to be good!

Can you name a specific example of a player since Borchard that the Sox had the opportunity to draft but passed up because of signing costs - who is now a successful MLB player?

I'm not trying to being sarcastic - I'm just interesting in seeing who we have failed to draft.

RockyMtnSoxFan
06-13-2007, 02:41 PM
I don't think the market prices will fall, but I think KW's problem with the free agent market this past offseason was the size of the contracts PLUS the fact that they were going to mediocre players.

Players will still be looking for more money this winter, but from what I have seen - at least it will be better players on the market looking for big contracts.

So why did we give Vazquez a contract extension but not Buehrle? I realize that Mark had a bad year last year, so the team was reluctant to extend him, but Vazquez had very similar stats.

I blame Kenny for having a fixation with power: high fastball guys and home run hitters. Both are flashy and impressive, but without consistency they ultimately fail.

Paulwny
06-13-2007, 02:46 PM
So why did we give Vazquez a contract extension but not Buehrle? I realize that Mark had a bad year last year, so the team was reluctant to extend him, but Vazquez had very similar stats.
.


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=84306&highlight=buehrle+contract+extension

jabrch
06-13-2007, 02:52 PM
There is lots of blame to go around. KW deserves a chunk of it. But the guys who aren't hitting, and the guys coming out of the pen so poorly earned more of the blame than Williams, the same way they rightfully got more of the credit in 2005.

Flight #24
06-13-2007, 02:55 PM
There is lots of blame to go around. KW deserves a chunk of it. But the guys who aren't hitting, and the guys coming out of the pen so poorly earned more of the blame than Williams, the same way they rightfully got more of the credit in 2005.

I agree for guys like Thome, Paulie, AJ, Crede (although the back kind of mitigates his issues).

But I can't blame Aardsma & Sisco for being wild. That's their history - wildness and inconsistency. Same with Boone Logan - it's the same Boone we saw last year.

When you get a long-haired dog as a pet, you can't get pissed at it when it sheds all over your house. Kenny got inconsistent youngsters, he can't blame them when they ended up being inconsistent. If they're still inconsistent a year from now - sure, talk about how they don't take coaching. But there should have been no expectation of anything but inconssitency at this stage of their Sox careers.

WhiteSox5187
06-13-2007, 04:17 PM
Interesting.

2002 81-81
1998 80-80-1
1989 69-92
1968 67-95
1970 56-106

Let me guess, you had to go look up Sox records on the internet to make yourself feel better?

This team is MUCH better than the 2002 team was (the only one of the above you likely remember) I mean it's not even close.
On paper this team IS much better than the 2002 team and the rotation of this team is a lot better than the '02 team, but the results are essentially the same. THe records at this point look very familar...I do remember the '02 team and the '98 team (my brother when he was younger used to be a Cubs fan, so that was a tough year for me). The 1989 team I was alive for but have no memory of. I just know that that was the last time we lost 90 games. The 1968 team I know about because of stories from my dad about how excited he was after the 1967 season and how quickly those hopes were dashed. 1970 is just the stuff of legend. I mean, wow. That is almost Cub bad!

ZombieRob
06-13-2007, 05:09 PM
I have to ask this .Why is it when the Cubs bring up someone it always seems liek they provide some spark to the team? Also why don't we have a can't miss in our minors? Felix Pie wether you hate the Cubs or not has got the tools to be a heckuva player.Even Matt Murton is more polished at this point.Zambrano came up through the minors and hes a for sure talent.
So I guess i can say maybe its Kenny and the scouting staff to blame for the debacle thats going on now.

PatK
06-13-2007, 05:21 PM
Remember in 1998, the Sox had one of the, if not the best record in the 2nd half.

gobears1987
06-13-2007, 05:27 PM
I don't blame Kenny for the offense. I do place full blame on him for the bullpen. You can't build a bullpen around the trash thrown out by the Flubs and Royals. *** were you thinking Kenny?

wassagstdu
06-13-2007, 06:17 PM
Here are a couple of heads that maybe should roll:

Duane Shaffer, Senior Director of Amateur Scouting
Alan Regier, Director of Player Development

The Sox minor league system is just not either identifying or developing good players. The hallmark of a Sox system rookie is the .182 BA and no apparent knowledge of fundamentals. Other teams bring up their promising minor leaguers when they have injuries and at least occasionally hit paydirt. Sox rookies seem to need a couple of years playing regularly at the major league level to get "ready."

The weakness of the Sox minor league system has been spotlighted by this year's problems. It will be a silver lining if the organization recognizes that its business plan absolutely requires a first rate minor league system and takes steps to build one.

Lip Man 1
06-13-2007, 07:21 PM
Kenny has already twice served notice to the minor league opearations staff this past off season and became involved in this year's draft last week. That speaks loudly don't you think?

Lip

WhiteSox5187
06-13-2007, 07:26 PM
Kenny has already twice served notice to the minor league opearations staff this past off season and became involved in this year's draft last week. That speaks loudly don't you think?

Lip
It does, but truth be told when was the last guy since Crede we brought up that had an impact on this team? Crede was brought up what, three four years ago? And even then he struggled. Kenny should have been upset at our drafts awhile ago.

greenpeach
06-13-2007, 07:28 PM
Kenny has already twice served notice to the minor league opearations staff this past off season and became involved in this year's draft last week. That speaks loudly don't you think?

Lip

Lip, I posted recently on another thread that one of big obstacles KW faces is that our direct competitors, Tigers, Indians & Twins all have more fertile farm systems then we do. It means that KW has less margin for error than some of the other GMs do. It's very hard to consistently upgrade your team every year via trades & free agents with little or no help from down on the farm.

soxinem1
06-13-2007, 07:30 PM
I remember posting over a year ago that the farm system, as far as producing MLB talent, has been a joke for some time. I was assailed by the Kenny-lovers. many stated that the Sox finished too high to get good picks, but that is total BS. NYY, BOS, NYM, and other contenders churn out players; we spit them out, and that has been that way for over a decade.

At the same token, he has fielded several competitive teams since becoming GM, though all of them except the 2005 addition were underachievers. All of them. So he does deserve blame.

I always felt that a GM should try to be as well rounded with their approach to building a winning team as possible. But honestly, Konerko, Dye, the Opening Day bullpen minus Jenks, Uribe, Iguchi, AJ, and Crede, are the ones responsible this year.

I would leave the coaches alone, especially Walker. This line up has a ton of MLB experience and they should know what works and what doesn't by now, and if they are not taking the proper measures to get out of their ruts, then do something different:

Hold the players responsible, and let them go. All of these coaches are excellent baseball men, and if the players don't want to listen, I'm sure some other teams will give them a home.

WhiteSox5187
06-13-2007, 07:36 PM
I remember posting over a year ago that the farm system, as far as producing MLB talent, has been a joke for some time. I was assailed by the Kenny-lovers. many stated that the Sox finished too high to get good picks, but that is total BS. NYY, BOS, NYM, and other contenders churn out players; we spit them out, and that has been that way for over a decade.

At the same token, he has fielded several competitive teams since becoming GM, though all of them except the 2005 addition were underachievers. All of them. So he does deserve blame.

I always felt that a GM should try to be as well rounded with their approach to building a winning team as possible. But honestly, Konerko, Dye, the Opening Day bullpen minus Jenks, Uribe, Iguchi, AJ, and Crede, are the ones responsible this year.

I would leave the coaches alone, especially Walker. This line up has a ton of MLB experience and they should know what works and what doesn't by now, and if they are not taking the proper measures to get out of their ruts, then do something different:

Hold the players responsible, and let them go. All of these coaches are excellent baseball men, and if the players don't want to listen, I'm sure some other teams will give them a home.
The Mets have produced a couple of good players but that's because they were a joke for a long time...who exactly has Boston and New York produced? Phillip Hughes is the only guy I can think of who came out of either of their systems. Nomar is the last guy I can think of who came out of Boston's system.

soxinem1
06-13-2007, 07:46 PM
The Mets have produced a couple of good players but that's because they were a joke for a long time...who exactly has Boston and New York produced? Phillip Hughes is the only guy I can think of who came out of either of their systems. Nomar is the last guy I can think of who came out of Boston's system.

NYY: Rivera, Proctor, Jeter, Pettite, Posada, Cano, Cabrera, to name a few.

BOS: Papelbon, Youkilis, and Pedroia all in the last few years.

Not a bad list, IYAM.

Mets have had four losing season since 1996, not exactly a horrible mark.

They all do a better job drafting than the White Sox do. By far.

In fact almost all MLB teams do. The Cubs have drafted with more success than the Sox in the last ten years, and that pains me to say that.

champagne030
06-13-2007, 08:28 PM
NYY: Rivera, Proctor, Jeter, Pettite, Posada, Cano, Cabrera, to name a few.

BOS: Papelbon, Youkilis, and Pedroia all in the last few years.

Not a bad list, IYAM.



Don't forget the package that Boston put together to get Beckett and Lowell. It included Hanley Ramirez and the guy who threw a no-hitter last season - Anibal Sanchez.

WhiteSox5187
06-13-2007, 08:30 PM
Don't forget the package that Boston put together to get Beckett and Lowell. It included Hanley Ramirez and the guy who threw a no-hitter last season - Anibal Sanchez.
Ah true, but those guys you mentioned for the Yankees came up years ago...the Mets haven't been awful by any means but they have certainly had higher draft picks than us. And the Cubs come up with better guys simply because they have a top ten pick year after year. Also some of those guys they've brought up have been a flash in the pan. Wood, Prior, Patterson? Where are they all now? Dontrelle Willis came up with them though. And this Pie and Theriot will be pretty good too.

soxinem1
06-13-2007, 09:17 PM
Ah true, but those guys you mentioned for the Yankees came up years ago...the Mets haven't been awful by any means but they have certainly had higher draft picks than us. And the Cubs come up with better guys simply because they have a top ten pick year after year. Also some of those guys they've brought up have been a flash in the pan. Wood, Prior, Patterson? Where are they all now? Dontrelle Willis came up with them though. And this Pie and Theriot will be pretty good too.

Cabrera, Cano, and Proctor are all recent products. Plus, Posada was a 20th round pick, IIRC.

All three of these guys are better than anything the White Sox have produced in their positions for the last ten years, and that is sad. We cannot even develop a set up man. Pathetic.

WhiteSox5187
06-14-2007, 02:18 AM
Cabrera, Cano, and Proctor are all recent products. Plus, Posada was a 20th round pick, IIRC.

All three of these guys are better than anything the White Sox have produced in their positions for the last ten years, and that is sad. We cannot even develop a set up man. Pathetic.
Aaron Rowand and Joe Crede I think are as good as Cabrera and Cano...but I don't watch the Yankees play a whole lot so I might be dead wrong. I'd have to double check the numbers and of course, I'm too lazy to do that. But yea, Rowand and Crede are the only position players taht I can think of that have come out of our farm system the past ten years that have been any good. We've developed a couple of good pitchers though.

Johnnydogs
06-14-2007, 08:21 AM
I have to ask this .Why is it when the Cubs bring up someone it always seems liek they provide some spark to the team? Also why don't we have a can't miss in our minors? Felix Pie wether you hate the Cubs or not has got the tools to be a heckuva player.Even Matt Murton is more polished at this point.Zambrano came up through the minors and hes a for sure talent.
So I guess i can say maybe its Kenny and the scouting staff to blame for the debacle thats going on now.

I hear you! Even Rich Hill and Sean Marshall (and little spark plugs like Theriot and Fontenot) were in the Cubs system. Other than a little bit of life from Terrero, the Sox MiLs are disappointing. I'm holding out hope that Fields isn't over hyped with the bat. His glove isn't as good as Crede's, yesterday's play notwithstanding, so I expect the pitching staff to suffer over time. Trading Chris B. Young for Vazquez still bothers me because he's AZ's starting CF. He is still a work in progress but I feel like he should be working in our outfield. Meanwhile, Javy doesn't impress me. Hell, he was under .500 on a last year's 90 win team (and he's under .500 in his career) but I digress...

Flight #24
06-14-2007, 10:50 AM
Kenny has already twice served notice to the minor league opearations staff this past off season and became involved in this year's draft last week. That speaks loudly don't you think?

Lip

That's 100% bull on Kenny's part. He's the GM, which means he's responsible for the farm. If he didn't agree with the picks or the guys were focusing on the wrong types of criteria, he should have said something earlier. If he wasn't focused on the farm, then shame on him for neglecting a key part of his job.

But if (more likely, IMO), he agreed with things, then he's as much to blame as anyone. I think that's the case because I can't see Kenny as a "hand-off, I'll go along with whatever you recommend" GM. Plus, I see the same disparity in the coaching in the minors - where despite Kenny complaining about fundamentals, none of the Sox kids (or vets) can execute worth a damn. That tells me he either doesn't really care about it or he hasn't put any effort into it.

balke
06-14-2007, 10:58 AM
That's 100% bull on Kenny's part. He's the GM, which means he's responsible for the farm. If he didn't agree with the picks or the guys were focusing on the wrong types of criteria, he should have said something earlier. If he wasn't focused on the farm, then shame on him for neglecting a key part of his job.

But if (more likely, IMO), he agreed with things, then he's as much to blame as anyone. I think that's the case because I can't see Kenny as a "hand-off, I'll go along with whatever you recommend" GM. Plus, I see the same disparity in the coaching in the minors - where despite Kenny complaining about fundamentals, none of the Sox kids (or vets) can execute worth a damn. That tells me he either doesn't really care about it or he hasn't put any effort into it.

I wonder if more than anything these young players do have talent, and are being taught the wrong fundamentals. Kenny will take care of that, but that is not his responsibility. Someone gets paid to teach these kids, and they aren't learning.

I also don't think Kenny should have to GM 4 teams and look over the draft. People are paid to take care of these things. Kenny is not the draft expert, he is the General Manager. He is not the fundamentals coach, or the Scout. There is a long line of failure here that needs to be weeded out. Kenny's done his job as GM. I don't see why he has to do everyone else's as well.

Flight #24
06-14-2007, 11:20 AM
I wonder if more than anything these young players do have talent, and are being taught the wrong fundamentals. Kenny will take care of that, but that is not his responsibility. Someone gets paid to teach these kids, and they aren't learning.

I also don't think Kenny should have to GM 4 teams and look over the draft. People are paid to take care of these things. Kenny is not the draft expert, he is the General Manager. He is not the fundamentals coach, or the Scout. There is a long line of failure here that needs to be weeded out. Kenny's done his job as GM. I don't see why he has to do everyone else's as well.

Kenny's job is to make sure these guys are being taught fundamentals. It's not that hard, he makes at least semi-regular trips to watch the minor league teams, and I have a hard time believeing that he's seeing good bunting, situational hitting, etc because we haven't seen any guys come up to the bigs that can do that. Coincidentally, we also don't see any guys on the big league team that can do that - the only guys who come even partially close are the newer guys (Erstad and in 2005- AJ, Iguchi). It's like the drink the clubhouse water and can't get a bunt down.

Minnesota's guys struggle when they come up (Bartlett as an example). but they play good D and execute when called upon, which mitigates their struggles. The Sox guys come up, play good D but if/when they struggle offensively, they simply can't contribute in any other way because their fundamentals suck. Just like the veterans. That makes it harder on the manager.

Lip Man 1
06-14-2007, 01:17 PM
Flight:

You bring up some excellent points.

Remember Kenny was just in Charlotte for a full week recently.

Lip

oeo
06-14-2007, 01:22 PM
Kenny's job is to make sure these guys are being taught fundamentals. It's not that hard, he makes at least semi-regular trips to watch the minor league teams, and I have a hard time believeing that he's seeing good bunting, situational hitting, etc because we haven't seen any guys come up to the bigs that can do that. Coincidentally, we also don't see any guys on the big league team that can do that - the only guys who come even partially close are the newer guys (Erstad and in 2005- AJ, Iguchi). It's like the drink the clubhouse water and can't get a bunt down.

I swear the one time I saw Charlotte this year, they had one time for a sac-bunt all game; Gustavo Molina lays down the perfect one.

I think Owens and Fields can lay down bunts; haven't seen Sweeney yet, Anderson definitely cannot.