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View Full Version : I'm glad people are getting off the wagon


PatK
06-12-2007, 10:08 AM
Since the Sox are playing terribly right now, it sure seems like there's a lot of "fans" jumping ship. Am I the only one that's glad?

People that never would have rooted for the Sox until they won the WS are fleeing like rats from a sinking ship.

I'm seeing the tide turn from white and black to Cubbie blue once again, and I couldn't be happier. And what's funny is that most of the people don't even realize that they are going from a struggling team in the most competative division to a struggling team in the worst.

Sure, the Cubs are closer to first than the Sox, but they are far out of the Wild Card. And their record really isn't anything to crow about.

I'm just sick of the bandwagon fans that all of a sudden were "huge" Sox fans after 2005. It came to a head this past weekend when I was watching the youngsters play Babe Ruth, and was chatting up the other team's manager between innings.

I noticed he was wearing a Tigers hat and questioned him on it. He said "I've been a Tigers fan my whole life, I'm a die hard". I was like "Last year, you were wearing a Sox hat and said you were a life long die hard", and asked him if he knew which hat he would be wearing next year.

Oh well, good riddance. Now maybe the real fans can get tickets and enjoy a game.

eriqjaffe
06-12-2007, 10:12 AM
Now maybe the real fans can get tickets and enjoy a game.Well, the real fans can get tickets, at any rate.

whitem0nkey
06-12-2007, 10:16 AM
one thing about the bandwagoners, is they still help our payroll.

Mr.1Dog
06-12-2007, 10:23 AM
one thing about the bandwagoners, is they still help our payroll.

:nod: Besides, I would much rather see a packed ball park than an empty one. I think Veeck said that. The noise that is generated from more people when good things happen gives me goose bumps; granted they have been few and far between this year.

PatK
06-12-2007, 10:25 AM
Well, the real fans can get tickets, at any rate.

True to a point.

A lot of people, such as myself, only have the luxury of being able to attend a couple of games a year. Last year, it was damn near impossible for me, unless I wanted terrible seats, or wanted to pay through the nose.

This year, it's definately been easier.

And yes, I'd rather see a full ballpark too, but I want to see it full of people that actually follow the Sox, not people there because the Sox are the "in" thing.

stacksedwards
06-12-2007, 10:31 AM
There is a fine line between "jumping off the bandwagon" and just not being a glutton for punishment. This team is bad. Plain and simple. Does that mean I'll quit being a White Sox fan? No. It is just hard for me to shell out good money to watch a sub par team go out and be able to predict exactly what will happen.
Popping up bunts, wasting good starting pitching, bullpen guys walking everyone (minus Jenks and Thorton), no two out hitting. It just gets old quick.
That being said I will still probably go to five or six more games this summer to enjoy the park and root on the team. But even the most tried and true fans will admit that its more fun when your winning.

RadioheadRocks
06-12-2007, 10:36 AM
Sure, the Cubs are closer to first than the Sox, but they are far out of the Wild Card. And their record really isn't anything to crow about.

They're also closer to last place than the Sox.

Rockman218
06-12-2007, 10:54 AM
I went to the game on Sunday with a bunch of friends, and win or lose, I love going to the games. When i'm older, and if i have money, win or lose, I hope to own season tickets. I feel sorry for the bandwagoners, that won't ever feel how we feel about our Sox. As long as we get hot every few years, and raise money off of them, the Sox will stay in Chicago forever.

BigWhiteMachine
06-12-2007, 10:59 AM
Well ... you sometimes just hate to see it come to having all the bandwagoneers jumping off.

It just starts an evil downward trend, and next thing you know the team has new uniforms that read Columbus or Portland across their chests because Jerry & Co. felt it fiscally impossible to keep the team in Chicago.

I guess the "World Series High" is finally fading fast, and making us crash hard -- real hard. It's causing me DT-like symptoms. Suddenly, I'm transformed to Old Comiskey, in the left field corner, watching the team in Mary Veeck's designed shorts, with about 11,000 of my closest Sox friends, on a Tuesday afternoon, just killing time, trying to watch some baseball, dreaming that maybe one day the White Sox will win a World Series. Again.

southsideirish71
06-12-2007, 11:06 AM
This is possibly the dumbest sox fan comment that we can make as a group. The oh I can't wait till everyone falls off the bandwagon so I "the true sox fan" can enjoy my team in the tranquility of a barren ballpark with no lines. Anyone that makes this comment should really think about checking their fan card at the door.

The more bandwagonners we put in the park, the more our payroll goes up. You dont think that the 100 million dollar payroll is because JR is being benevolent.

The more of these "bandwagonners" we have, the more stuff the buy you realize, again going to the bottom line of the team. Allowing us to keep a competitive team on the field.

Do you like the no lines at the park and some retread in RF next year, or would you like to see Ichiro and have to wait a few minutes in a line.



As a person who spends a lot of time at the park seeing a lot of games I like a filled park. I like the excitement of a packed house, and a great game. I like the rewards of a filled park with these bandwagonners, including a nice large payroll.

If some of you had your way, we would be battling the Royals year in and year out due to being a mid market team but thank god you wouldnt have to wait in a line to pee.

Act like fan base of a championship team, act like you have been here before. Winning breads fandom, winning is what turns kids onto the sox and makes future sox fans. Winning and success is what can make us a long term great franchise.

southsideirish71
06-12-2007, 11:08 AM
Well, the real fans can get tickets, at any rate.

Some of us already bought our plans in the offseason.

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 11:28 AM
Well ... you sometimes just hate to see it come to having all the bandwagoneers jumping off.

It just starts an evil downward trend, and next thing you know the team has new uniforms that read Columbus or Portland across their chests because Jerry & Co. felt it fiscally impossible to keep the team in Chicago.

I guess the "World Series High" is finally fading fast, and making us crash hard -- real hard. It's causing me DT-like symptoms. Suddenly, I'm transformed to Old Comiskey, in the left field corner, watching the team in Mary Veeck's designed shorts, with about 11,000 of my closest Sox friends, on a Tuesday afternoon, just killing time, trying to watch some baseball, dreaming that maybe one day the White Sox will win a World Series. Again.
That's a bit melodramtic, don't you think?

20 months ago we won a World Series with one of the best postseason records in playoff history.

KW had a window from 2005-2008. He's batting a robust .333 in World Series titles during this window. I doubt we're going to be moving the team anytime soon.

If you look at what KW did during the '04 season up through the '06 season, he acquired veteran players to fit his "win now" mode. Now the '07 team is bad and those veterans have to go. No problem. Thanks for the accomplishments, now let's move on forward.

Had the Sox won their title in '05 with a young core, the big picture would look totally different and our window would be open for the next couple of years. But that didn't happen, so now we have to build another young core, find out which ones are difference makers and which ones are not, and then fill the remaining gaps with productive veterans like every other team does.

If anything, the success of '05 should make you optimisitc about the future. Not only did we find out that our general manager will make the moves necessary to capitalize on a present opportunity, but we also found out that our cheap-skate owner would pony up the cash to re-sign key players and go out and get whoever it is that will make our team better.

KW is not going to let this team slip between the cracks and into the cellar forever. We aren't the Royals. He's done well in all his big trades so far and has a knack for finding those complimentary pieces in small deals. Give him 2 years and total control to rebuild this team and suddenly we are contenders again. If we re-sign Garland and Buehrle and hold onto Danks, we already have 3 spots of a very solid starting staff in place. Maybe we'll finally get lucky in the draft, maybe we'll find another Jenks via Rule-5, maybe we'll keep on finding those Miles-for-Uribe, Borchard-for-Thornton type deals. Just let the guy do what he does best and let's see what happens.

tebman
06-12-2007, 11:30 AM
There's a difference between a bandwagoneer and a casual fan. I think the Sox picked up more casual fans, whereas the Cubs attract bandwagoneers.

I have no data to support this, but in my mind bandwagoneers are attracted by crowds and glitter which is what makes up that Disneyfied neighborhood at Clark & Addison. Casual fans, on the other hand, enjoy baseball but not in the visceral way a devoted one-team fan does. The casual fans are attracted to a successful team that plays well, which is what the Sox were doing until the middle of last season.

Frat boys and trixies are natural bandwagon-riders, waving at the Wrigley crowds and not knowing first base from a first down. Casual fans see that the Sox aren't playing well and don't want to spend the money to see them. At least that's how I see it.

PatK
06-12-2007, 11:40 AM
This is possibly the dumbest sox fan comment that we can make as a group. The oh I can't wait till everyone falls off the bandwagon so I "the true sox fan" can enjoy my team in the tranquility of a barren ballpark with no lines. Anyone that makes this comment should really think about checking their fan card at the door.


I'm sorry, you're right. I'll hand in my fan card.

God forbid I don't want to see the stupidity that goes on at the corner of Clark and Addison take place at The Cell and am happy to see it leaving.

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 11:43 AM
This is possibly the dumbest sox fan comment that we can make as a group. The oh I can't wait till everyone falls off the bandwagon so I "the true sox fan" can enjoy my team in the tranquility of a barren ballpark with no lines. Anyone that makes this comment should really think about checking their fan card at the door.

The more bandwagonners we put in the park, the more our payroll goes up. You dont think that the 100 million dollar payroll is because JR is being benevolent.

The more of these "bandwagonners" we have, the more stuff the buy you realize, again going to the bottom line of the team. Allowing us to keep a competitive team on the field.

Do you like the no lines at the park and some retread in RF next year, or would you like to see Ichiro and have to wait a few minutes in a line.



As a person who spends a lot of time at the park seeing a lot of games I like a filled park. I like the excitement of a packed house, and a great game. I like the rewards of a filled park with these bandwagonners, including a nice large payroll.

If some of you had your way, we would be battling the Royals year in and year out due to being a mid market team but thank god you wouldnt have to wait in a line to pee.

Act like fan base of a championship team, act like you have been here before. Winning breads fandom, winning is what turns kids onto the sox and makes future sox fans. Winning and success is what can make us a long term great franchise.
Awesome post.

After winning the WS, there were a lot of Sox fans here talking about the people they have or will convert to Sox fans. People were so happy to get others to "see the light." Well, maybe some of these people only see light when they can't see darkness any longer, and now we're thankful they're gone?

As pointed out above, bandwagoners provide additional income for the organization. While they may be annoying to talk to at times, and while their overall lack of knowledge of the game of baseball may be frustrating and even embarrassing, they are spending the money. As long as it doesn't go overboard and result in tear-jerking HBO documentaries about how bad we suck and frighteningly bad Chris Kattan movies, I'll take it.

southside rocks
06-12-2007, 12:09 PM
Things are cyclical. The Sox are playing horribly this year, which means fewer fans in the seats; but a return to good baseball will have fans filling the park once again -- the Sox are no longer 'off the radar' as they were for so many years in the 1970's, and they never will be that again.

Fans who truly love the White Sox will continue to support the club even through the bad times, which are upon us this summer, it seems like. I plan to renew my season tickets next year and for many years after that. This sub-par performance and epidemic of injuries hasn't turned KW and Ozzie from miracle men into incompetents; I have faith still in both of them and I know that a team that can't even play at .500 is not okay with them. The ship will be righted, somehow (and the 'somehow' might be interesting).

The notion that we are somehow suddenly going to return to the days of the Allyns and Veeck and a crumbling stadium and 12,000 attendance at every game is not rational. But then, most bad dreams aren't. :o:

southsideirish71
06-12-2007, 12:23 PM
I'm sorry, you're right. I'll hand in my fan card.

God forbid I don't want to see the stupidity that goes on at the corner of Clark and Addison take place at The Cell and am happy to see it leaving.

You must be a fan of not having money as a franchise then. Because if you chase away all those bandwagon fans, and the people who bought all those season ticket plans then who is left. You realize that those bandwagon fans are the ones who are partly responsible for that wonderful 100 million dollar payroll you see today. Who the hell cares if some dope in a kids baseball game wore a sox hat last year, and a tigers hat this year. Why do you feel its your mission in life to prove how superior of a fan you are to that guy. I would rather that dope brings his family to the ballpark about 10 times this year and spends about 300 dollars on tickets, concessions and parking each time. The more of those dopes, the easier it will be to afford ichiro.

God how hard is it to explain the monetary side of baseball. A

puckereduppiet
06-12-2007, 12:33 PM
Living on the northside, I see more WHITE SOX hats and gear this summer. Only time I see cubbie gear is when they are playing a home game. These are the true bandwagon fans.
GO SOX:gulp:

Johnnydogs
06-12-2007, 12:41 PM
As already stated, bandwagon fans are necessary to the longterm viability of a franchise. The diehards are just that--they will be around no matter what happens, the bandwagoners make this thing go and they help us get the expensive free agents as well as have money to keep our own guys. Also, this whole deal with the Sox is disheartening but we can't be cocky. We're only 5 games out of last place and I don't see this team finishing the year above .500. This is feels like a punch in the gut. Man, I remember Kenny speaking confidently in the offseason about how he was retooling the team to compete for 2007 and beyond so that we could avoid a 90 loss season. At this point I wouldn't be surprised to lose 90 games! :whiner: And no, I'm not going to spend my hard earned money to go to the park and watch losing baseball when I can watch it for free at home. The more I think about how things have turned out the more angry I become. :angry:

minutia
06-12-2007, 01:20 PM
That's a bit melodramtic, don't you think?

20 months ago we won a World Series with one of the best postseason records in playoff history.

KW had a window from 2005-2008. He's batting a robust .333 in World Series titles during this window. I doubt we're going to be moving the team anytime soon.

If you look at what KW did during the '04 season up through the '06 season, he acquired veteran players to fit his "win now" mode. Now the '07 team is bad and those veterans have to go. No problem. Thanks for the accomplishments, now let's move on forward.

Had the Sox won their title in '05 with a young core, the big picture would look totally different and our window would be open for the next couple of years. But that didn't happen, so now we have to build another young core, find out which ones are difference makers and which ones are not, and then fill the remaining gaps with productive veterans like every other team does.

If anything, the success of '05 should make you optimisitc about the future. Not only did we find out that our general manager will make the moves necessary to capitalize on a present opportunity, but we also found out that our cheap-skate owner would pony up the cash to re-sign key players and go out and get whoever it is that will make our team better.

KW is not going to let this team slip between the cracks and into the cellar forever. We aren't the Royals. He's done well in all his big trades so far and has a knack for finding those complimentary pieces in small deals. Give him 2 years and total control to rebuild this team and suddenly we are contenders again. If we re-sign Garland and Buehrle and hold onto Danks, we already have 3 spots of a very solid starting staff in place. Maybe we'll finally get lucky in the draft, maybe we'll find another Jenks via Rule-5, maybe we'll keep on finding those Miles-for-Uribe, Borchard-for-Thornton type deals. Just let the guy do what he does best and let's see what happens.
I like your thinking. I feel the same way. I love this team and I have loved them through a lot worse times than this. I alway reasoned that at least they were competing, which of late does not appear to be the case they look more like beaten dogs out there, but I digress. I think that the outcome of 2005 should fill us all with hope for the future and not dispair, and while I welcome the opportunity to possibly be able to get some, if not all of my Ozzie package tickets on the lower deck, I don't want to see anyone abandon the Sox.

chisoxmike
06-12-2007, 01:23 PM
Sox fans throw around the term "bandwagon fan" too much without knowing what it means.

PKalltheway
06-12-2007, 01:29 PM
This is possibly the dumbest sox fan comment that we can make as a group. The oh I can't wait till everyone falls off the bandwagon so I "the true sox fan" can enjoy my team in the tranquility of a barren ballpark with no lines. Anyone that makes this comment should really think about checking their fan card at the door.

The more bandwagonners we put in the park, the more our payroll goes up. You dont think that the 100 million dollar payroll is because JR is being benevolent.

The more of these "bandwagonners" we have, the more stuff the buy you realize, again going to the bottom line of the team. Allowing us to keep a competitive team on the field.

Do you like the no lines at the park and some retread in RF next year, or would you like to see Ichiro and have to wait a few minutes in a line.



As a person who spends a lot of time at the park seeing a lot of games I like a filled park. I like the excitement of a packed house, and a great game. I like the rewards of a filled park with these bandwagonners, including a nice large payroll.

If some of you had your way, we would be battling the Royals year in and year out due to being a mid market team but thank god you wouldnt have to wait in a line to pee.

Act like fan base of a championship team, act like you have been here before. Winning breads fandom, winning is what turns kids onto the sox and makes future sox fans. Winning and success is what can make us a long term great franchise.
:hawk
"I luv it when you analyze!"

Seriously though, you're right. How do you think teams like the Braves and Angels got to where they are right now? The Angels couldn't draw fleas 15 years ago, and now they're toe-to-toe with the Dodgers in attendance. My dad would always tell me how much of an afterthought the Braves were during the 1970's and 1980's and now look at where they're at.

More people at the park= more money= more money for better ballplayers. Having the 4th highest payroll in baseball doesn't just magically come out of nowhere.

PatK
06-12-2007, 04:54 PM
God how hard is it to explain the monetary side of baseball. A

You mean like how teams like the A's and Twins are able to field competative teams year after year, despite lower payrolls and attendance than the Sox, while the most profitable teams like the Cubs continually flounder?

Go check the attendance of the 2003 Marlins.

Don't get me wrong- I would much rather see the US Cellular full than empty. But I'd rather see it full of Sox fans. Not the Chads and Trixies that I've had the unfortunate experience of being surrounded by this year and last.

And I stand by my statement that I'd rather see people that are there to see a ballgame, casual fan or not, rather than people that are there because it's the cool thing to do.

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 05:18 PM
You mean like how teams like the A's and Twins are able to field competative teams year after year, despite lower payrolls and attendance than the Sox, while the most profitable teams like the Cubs continually flounder?
The A's and the Twins don't do jack in the playoffs. Give me a team that on paper, before the season even starts, is good enough to win it all. Being "competitive" doesn't mean anything if you don't go for it all.

The Cubs are a bad example. LAA, NYY, and BOS all put out pretty good teams every year. Injuries and 2007 Sox-like slumps happen and teams don't play to the level they should, but there is a difference between teams that draft well and spend to win vs. the Cubs.

Go check the attendance of the 2003 Marlins.

As has been stated in every "Marlins to move to _______?" thread on here since that franchise started, much of that has to do with the stadium and the the fact that many in that area can not afford to attend as many games as they'd like. There are other reasons as well I'm sure, but basically Florida has not shown itself to be a very good place for MLB.

Don't get me wrong- I would much rather see the US Cellular full than empty. But I'd rather see it full of Sox fans. Not the Chads and Trixies that I've had the unfortunate experience of being surrounded by this year and last.

You can't have the best of both worlds, especially now. If the Sox make the playoffs every year or two and win a few more titles over the next 20 years, then the dynamic will change. There will be a lot more passionate die-hard Sox fans who grew up watching the team showing up and a lot less bandwagoners showing up. Unlike say Boston, which has a rabid fan base and actually has a ton of die-hards (even though they have a ton of casual know-nothing fans as well), the Sox play in a two-team market. They have to compete with someone else. You look at NY, and mainly that's pro-Yankees even with the Mets in town. Why? Because the Yanks win consistently and they are not satisified with just making the playoffs. That's what the Sox need to do. They need to draft better, re-sign the difference makers they've developed, make the necessary deals, and use the free agent market.

And I stand by my statement that I'd rather see people that are there to see a ballgame, casual fan or not, rather than people that are there because it's the cool thing to do.

It's a lot easier to talk baseball with someone who knows baseball. But if it's me, I'd rather see a winning team while surrounded by morons than sit in an empty ballpark to watch a pathetic disaster.

MRM
06-12-2007, 05:33 PM
Well ... you sometimes just hate to see it come to having all the bandwagoneers jumping off.

It just starts an evil downward trend, and next thing you know the team has new uniforms that read Columbus or Portland across their chests because Jerry & Co. felt it fiscally impossible to keep the team in Chicago.

I guess the "World Series High" is finally fading fast, and making us crash hard -- real hard. It's causing me DT-like symptoms. Suddenly, I'm transformed to Old Comiskey, in the left field corner, watching the team in Mary Veeck's designed shorts, with about 11,000 of my closest Sox friends, on a Tuesday afternoon, just killing time, trying to watch some baseball, dreaming that maybe one day the White Sox will win a World Series. Again.

Brings back memories to be sure.

I know the old/new Comiskey debate has raged here in the past but just thinking about it after your post, the old place really was a dump. Don't get me wrong, I have great memories of old Comiskey and spent many a day out there, and thought it was heaven on earth. One of those things where if you don't know any better....

Of course, as I got older and was able to attend games in many other parks, it sheds light on just how bad the old joint was. It's definately the only park I've ever seen that would sell you a ticket directly behind a pillar that completely obstructed your view of the field :angry:. It was a blessing when they put the tv's on the pillars around the park so you could see what was going on on the field from some of the horrible seating they had.

Great being a teen-aged "bleacher bum" on a hot Saturday afternoon with Harry broadcasting from the centerfield bleachers, watching bad baseball and pretty girls under the shower, though. :D:

PatK
06-12-2007, 05:40 PM
The Cubs are a bad example.


Why, because they don't fit your theory?


The A's and the Twins don't do jack in the playoffs.

The Yankees haven't done jack since 2000 according to your logic.

As has been stated in every "Marlins to move to _______?" thread on here since that franchise started, much of that has to do with the stadium and the the fact that many in that area can not afford to attend as many games as they'd like. There are other reasons as well I'm sure, but basically Florida has not shown itself to be a very good place for MLB.

But I thought you couldn't be sucessful without attendance? They won 2 WS Championships in less than 10 years. There were 86 years between Sox titles.

It's a lot easier to talk baseball with someone who knows baseball.

Since when does not liking douchebag fans indicate a lack of baseball knowledge?

Yes, I know more revenue= more money to spend on talent, that's obvious. But there's more to making a competative baseball team than spending money.

This place cracks me up When the Cubs bandwagon is rolling, it's annoying and shows you how stupid andsheepish people are. But with the Sox, it's a necessity.

Can't have it both ways.

MRM
06-12-2007, 05:46 PM
You mean like how teams like the A's and Twins are able to field competative teams year after year, despite lower payrolls and attendance than the Sox,

When is the last time the Twins or A's were truly a contender? Sure, they build teams capable of making the playoffs quite often only to be overmatched by better teams once they get there. The last time either of those teams was a true contender was long before Billy Beane came along. They both end up losing their best players year after year because they won't/can't pay to keep high priced talent. You think Hunter will be around next year? Santana in a couple of years? The A's are little more than a farm team for the bigger clubs. Giambi, Zito, Hudson, Mulder, Damon, the list is endless. Even when they sign FA's they are bargain basement guys coming off injury who leave as soon as they have a decent season with the A's (Dye, Frank).

Thomes Forearm
06-12-2007, 06:00 PM
You mean like how teams like the A's and Twins are able to field competative teams year after year, despite lower payrolls and attendance than the Sox, while the most profitable teams like the Cubs continually flounder?

Go check the attendance of the 2003 Marlins.

Don't get me wrong- I would much rather see the US Cellular full than empty. But I'd rather see it full of Sox fans. Not the Chads and Trixies that I've had the unfortunate experience of being surrounded by this year and last.

And I stand by my statement that I'd rather see people that are there to see a ballgame, casual fan or not, rather than people that are there because it's the cool thing to do.


let's not forget that we won the 2005 World Series WITHOUT THE LARGE FAN BASE. we did not win with a $100 mil payroll. why are we suddenly so obsessed with the payroll? when has that actually proven to be an accurate judge of how a team will do in a season? i thought that was the exact opposite of most thinking on this board. so when we don;t have a big payroll, it's beetter to have a small one, but when we have a big on it's suddenly the "thing to do?"

JB98
06-12-2007, 06:10 PM
Personally, I like seeing our beautiful ballpark full, and I want other people to care about the Sox as much as I do.

If people are getting off the wagon, that brings me no joy whatsoever.

Johnnydogs
06-12-2007, 07:01 PM
let's not forget that we won the 2005 World Series WITHOUT THE LARGE FAN BASE. we did not win with a $100 mil payroll. why are we suddenly so obsessed with the payroll? when has that actually proven to be an accurate judge of how a team will do in a season? i thought that was the exact opposite of most thinking on this board. so when we don;t have a big payroll, it's beetter to have a small one, but when we have a big on it's suddenly the "thing to do?"

Because, unlike other teams, our success was fleeting (obviously). Less than two whole seasons removed from winning the WS and we're staring losing in the face. That's the work of expansion teams like the Marlins not a team that was suppose to be built for the longrun! After the championship, we all thought the team would be a yearly contender but anyone who has really watched this team, objectively, knows that they have been under .500 since just before the All Star Break of 2006. Unfortunately, we're looking more like a team that caught lightening in a bottle than a masterfully constructed roster. Hell, people make fun of the Yankees spending money and not winning championships but they have been to the postseason every year for over a decade. We can't even speak of recent back to back postseason appearances. The truth is, this is a large market and money has to be spent in the absence of viable MiL prospects who can fill voids. Of course, the smartest way to build a team is with a fruitful farmsystem but we don't really have that (that's how the Braves won 14 straight divisions and how the Twins continue to contend without spending a lot of money). Don't kid yourself, the Sox are definitely seeking a larger fanbase. They do lots of marketing and they have raised prices across the board. Why are we being arrogant in saying we don't want to be like the Cubs or other teams with large fanbases? They are unique because they have an extremely loyal base but if some of their crossover fans want to go to the Cell when we're winning, I don't have a problem with it. I'd like for us to have the capital to spend on free agents too.

JB98
06-12-2007, 07:05 PM
Because, unlike other teams, our success was fleeting (obviously). Less than two whole seasons removed from winning the WS and we're staring losing in the face. That's the work of expansion teams like the Marlins not a team that was suppose to be built for the longrun! After the championship, we all thought the team would be a yearly contender but anyone who has really watched this team, objectively, knows that they have been under .500 since just before the All Star Break of 2006. Unfortunately, we're looking more like a team that caught lightening in a bottle than a masterfully constructed roster. Hell, people make fun of the Yankees spending money and not winning championships but they have been to the postseason every year for over a decade. We can't even speak of recent back to back postseason appearances. The truth is, this is a large market and money has to be spent in the absence of viable MiL prospects who can fill voids. Of course, the smartest way to build a team is with a fruitful farmsystem but we don't really have that (that's how the Braves won 14 straight divisions and how the Twins continue to contend without spending a lot of money). Don't kid yourself, the Sox are definitely seeking a larger fanbase. They do lots of marketing and they have raised prices across the board. Why are we being arrogant in saying we don't want to be like the Cubs or other teams with large fanbases? They are unique because they have an extremely loyal base but if some of their crossover fans want to go to the Cell when we're winning, I don't have a problem with it. I'd like for us to have the capital to spend on free agents too.

The Sox ARE spending money. We have a big payroll this year, which makes failure all the more galling. The reason we missed the postseason last year and are struggling this year has nothing to do with lack of dollars invested.

Johnnydogs
06-12-2007, 07:16 PM
The Sox ARE spending money. We have a big payroll this year, which makes failure all the more galling. The reason we missed the postseason last year and are struggling this year has nothing to do with lack of dollars invested.

Do you think the payroll will continue to be high in the absence of a large gate? The Sox drew almost 3 million last season. If those numbers drop dramatically so will the payroll! This is the biggest argument against the anti-bandwagon crowd. Again, without a farmsystem that's supplying good players for the ML team and or for trades we will need money for free agents.

areilly
06-12-2007, 08:35 PM
The Sox ARE spending money. We have a big payroll this year, which makes failure all the more galling. The reason we missed the postseason last year and are struggling this year has nothing to do with lack of dollars invested.


They do have a big payroll, but how much of that money is tied up in only five players? Someone pointed out in another thread that Sox payroll went up, but it can be tied solely to Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Javier Vazquez and Jon Garland.

Then what? What missing pieces have the Sox spent so fully on?

PatK
06-12-2007, 08:42 PM
Before my thread spins more out of control, I'd just like to attempt to clear something up.

I think many of you are confusing "bandwagon" fans with "casual", or maybe we have different definitions of each.

When I say bandwagon, I'm talking about the guy in the first post. The guy that all of a sudden is a huge fan when the team gets good, then moves on to another team when they do poor.

The casual fan or new fan I have no problem with. Because with those fans, you have a much greater potential to add to the hard-core fanbase. You don't have that with the bandwagon fan- they will never be loyal and will only contribute to the team financialy when things are already going well.

Like them or not, appealing to the casual fan is what makes the Cubs so successful from an attendence and revenue standpoint.

And I'd hate to break it to you, but the more I go to the Cell, I can see why we don't appeal to the casual fan, and a lot of it is because the experiences of the casual fan is that us Sox fans live up to a lot of the negative stereotypes that the media perpetuates, much to my dismay.

I only say this because of what I noticed the last few games I've gone to. For example, I was at Friday and Saturday's games and at both I was sitting around a bunch of Astros fans. I was talking with them, and they could not believe the negativity of our fanbase. They were like "sure, the team is doing bad, and we know how that is, but can't you still have a good time? If you can't and have to criticize everything, what's the point in coming to the game?"

Now these same folks commended us on our passion, knowledge of the game, and the intensity and attention we pay to it. But they also said that they felt the vibe that was a bit intimidating to someone who isn't familiar with the team.

I heard the same thing during the Yankees series from clients I took to the game. It's made me think.

Like I said, good riddance bandwagoneers, and don't spend too much on whichever team you are going to pledge your allegiance to this year.

To everyone else, let's give a reason for people to come to the Cell even if we aren't doing well.

I've got to watch a disaster in progress. Like some of you, I'm not giving up until the fat lady sings, even if it looks like she's warming up right now.

JB98
06-12-2007, 08:53 PM
Do you think the payroll will continue to be high in the absence of a large gate? The Sox drew almost 3 million last season. If those numbers drop dramatically so will the payroll! This is the biggest argument against the anti-bandwagon crowd. Again, without a farmsystem that's supplying good players for the ML team and or for trades we will need money for free agents.

The Sox have averaged over 30,000 per home game so far this year. The gate has dropped a little bit, but not much.

Money, not a real big concern for me.

JB98
06-12-2007, 08:54 PM
They do have a big payroll, but how much of that money is tied up in only five players? Someone pointed out in another thread that Sox payroll went up, but it can be tied solely to Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Javier Vazquez and Jon Garland.

Then what? What missing pieces have the Sox spent so fully on?

Coming into the year, the Sox believed they had a championship contender. I don't think they stayed away from any potential free-agent signees because of money.

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 09:11 PM
I think many of you are confusing "bandwagon" fans with "casual", or maybe we have different definitions of each.

When I say bandwagon, I'm talking about the guy in the first post. The guy that all of a sudden is a huge fan when the team gets good, then moves on to another team when they do poor.

The casual fan or new fan I have no problem with. Because with those fans, you have a much greater potential to add to the hard-core fanbase. You don't have that with the bandwagon fan- they will never be loyal and will only contribute to the team financialy when things are already going well.

Like them or not, appealing to the casual fan is what makes the Cubs so successful from an attendence and revenue standpoint.
What are you talking about?

What is a casual fan and what is a bandwagon fan? By your definition they pretty much sound like the exact same to me, i.e. someone who likes baseball but doesn't have a favorite team and just hangs around whatever team appeals to them at the moment.

IMO, there are three types of fans besides die-hards:

1. The fans like I described above who just like the game and support whatever team is their favorite at the moment.
2. People who have been raised as Cub or Sox fans or whatever. Usually their fandom is more like "family tradition" but they don't really follow baseball or their team at all. They just pay attention here and there when the team is doing well.
3. People who know nothing about baseball at all and just all of the sudden get a crazy hair up their ass and decide to become fans of one team. I don't know why this happens, but I've run into many of them and they don't have a clue about their team.

Of course, die-hards to me probably doesn't mean the same thing to most others as it does to me. To me, a die-hard is someone who always has and always will be a fan of the team. They don't have to watch the team all the time or go to all the games, because some people just don't like to watch bad teams. They still keep up with the team and know a lot about what's going on, and they purchase merchandise and go to at least a few games per year if they live in the general area, and it is often solely for the experience because the team isn't always doing well.

The only fans I can't stand are the ones who are idiots (#3) and call into the Score asking why the Sox don't trade Darin Erstad to the Twins for Johan Santana. These are also the ones will will routinely mispronounce a players name, ask "who's that guy?" and/or have no idea what positions popular players play. For example, one might ask "Isn't Joe Crede the SS?" Oh, and this is just the assumption, but these people have to be the ones who yell obscene garbage in the presence of children and throw crap on the field.

Brian26
06-12-2007, 09:22 PM
When is the last time the Twins or A's were truly a contender? Sure, they build teams capable of making the playoffs quite often only to be overmatched by better teams once they get there. The last time either of those teams was a true contender was long before Billy Beane came along.

That is completely insane.

You're telling me the Giambi/Tejada/Zito/Mulder/Hudson A's weren't a contender five years ago?

PatK
06-12-2007, 09:32 PM
What are you talking about?

What is a casual fan and what is a bandwagon fan? By your definition they pretty much sound like the exact same to me, i.e. someone who likes baseball but doesn't have a favorite team and just hangs around whatever team appeals to them at the moment.

IMO, there are three types of fans besides die-hards:

1. The fans like I described above who just like the game and support whatever team is their favorite at the moment.
2. People who have been raised as Cub or Sox fans or whatever. Usually their fandom is more like "family tradition" but they don't really follow baseball or their team at all. They just pay attention here and there when the team is doing well.
3. People who know nothing about baseball at all and just all of the sudden get a crazy hair up their ass and decide to become fans of one team. I don't know why this happens, but I've run into many of them and they don't have a clue about their team.


I'm talking about #3 more specifically. Those people, good riddance. That's what this thread was intended towards.

The #1, I don't mind, because it seems like they are more or less fans of the game for the most part, and just appreciate good baseball.

My hatred is more based towards the South Side versions of the proverbial Chad and Tracy.

Lip Man 1
06-12-2007, 10:09 PM
JB:

The Sox are off 2,500 per game for the same number of home dates at this point in time compared to 2007.

Lip

JB98
06-12-2007, 10:12 PM
JB:

The Sox are off 2,500 per game for the same number of home dates at this point in time compared to 2007.

Lip

I know that, and they are still averaging over 30,000 per game.

So I'm not buying the cry poor argument from anybody.

areilly
06-12-2007, 10:19 PM
And I'd hate to break it to you, but the more I go to the Cell, I can see why we don't appeal to the casual fan, and a lot of it is because the experiences of the casual fan is that us Sox fans live up to a lot of the negative stereotypes that the media perpetuates, much to my dismay.

Like I keep telling people, welcome back to the good old days. Crummy team! Shrinking attendance! Shank or be shanked!

areilly
06-12-2007, 10:22 PM
Coming into the year, the Sox believed they had a championship contender. I don't think they stayed away from any potential free-agent signees because of money.

All I know is that the Sox did absolutely nothing in the off-season to even attempt to improve their starting outfield and tried to improve the bullpen by trading **** for crap. Whether it was because of money or hubris, I can't say for certain, but I do know that this is not an organization that will invest proactively. History has proven that.

JB98
06-12-2007, 10:27 PM
All I know is that the Sox did absolutely nothing in the off-season to even attempt to improve their starting outfield and tried to improve the bullpen by trading **** for crap. Whether it was because of money or hubris, I can't say for certain, but I do know that this is not an organization that will invest proactively. History has proven that.

I think they really believed the relievers they acquired were the answer. Hell, a lot of people here thought they were the answer. In April, we thought we had "the greatest bullpen of all time."

You don't think signing Erstad was an attempt to improve their starting outfield? Maybe you don't like the move, but would you have given Juan Pierre a five-year deal? I wouldn't have. If that makes me "cheap, timid and stupid," then I guess I'll wear it.

MRM
06-12-2007, 10:27 PM
All I know is that the Sox did absolutely nothing in the off-season to even attempt to improve their starting outfield and tried to improve the bullpen by trading **** for crap. Whether it was because of money or hubris, I can't say for certain, but I do know that this is not an organization that will invest proactively. History has proven that.

Darrin Erstad wasn't an "attempt to improve their starting outfield"? I'm pretty sure most posters in here were PRAISING the Sox for the bullpen moves prior to the season. It was widely considered a STENGTH of the team.

I don't know about you, but with me things don't always go as planned. And I don't blame my original decisions after hindsight sets in...

Lip Man 1
06-12-2007, 10:32 PM
JB:

I don't think they stayed away from signing people because of money completely either, but I do think Kenny was absolutely shocked (and said so many times) about how the market went up last off season, especially for pitchers.

I feel he changed his philosophy after the G.M. meetings. I don't think he originally intended to go the route he did, say with the bullpen but felt he had to because the Sox simply couldn't afford quality players everywhere. Everywhere being the operative word.

As he put it, he wanted to put the team in a situation to contend now and in the immediate future.

Many many people said at the time of his statement that doing something like that was extremely rare and very difficult to pull off, apparently they were right.

Complicating matters is that every one that I've seen (except Kenny) feels the market will remain as high next season.

If it does, I have no idea what the Sox can do, short of boosting payroll to maybe 115-120 million.

I simply don't know if that's possible. And at this point I have no idea what Kenny's operating philosophy is going to be.

Clearly there are major holes in the team...can he solve ALL of them in a single off-season?

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-12-2007, 10:34 PM
MRM:

There were a number of posters who felt ill at ease with the players Kenny brought in, especially given the limited experience and the wildness / control issues in limited major league and minor league time.

It was a crapshoot that didn't work out.

As stated before, I hope Kenny can correct it this off season. To me a solid bullpen is an absolute must for a team both from a game standpoint and from a morale issue (i.e. blowing winnable games...)

Lip

JB98
06-12-2007, 10:36 PM
JB:

I don't think they stayed away from signing people because of money completely either, but I do think Kenny was absolutely shocked (and said so many times) about how the market went up last off season, especially for pitchers.

I feel he changed his philosophy after the G.M. meetings. I don't think he originally intended to go the route he did, say with the bullpen but felt he had to because the Sox simply couldn't afford quality players everywhere. Everywhere being the operative word.

As he put it, he wanted to put the team in a situation to contend now and in the immediate future.

Many many people said at the time of his statement that doing something like that was extremely rare and very difficult to pull off, apparently they were right.

Complicating matters is that every one that I've seen (except Kenny) feels the market will remain as high next season.

If it does, I have no idea what the Sox can do, short of boosting payroll to maybe 115-120 million.

I simply don't know if that's possible. And at this point I have no idea what Kenny's operating philosophy is going to be.

Clearly there are major holes in the team...can he solve ALL of them in a single off-season?

Lip

Well, he fixed a lot of ills between 2004 and 2005. This club was pretty bad the last two months of 2004, and it turned around pretty quickly after he retooled. It's going to take some bold moves, for sure.

I just hope he makes some changes soon. We've had almost a full year of "I like what we have here." We've also had almost a full year of poor results.

champagne030
06-12-2007, 10:44 PM
JB:

I don't think they stayed away from signing people because of money completely either, but I do think Kenny was absolutely shocked (and said so many times) about how the market went up last off season, especially for pitchers.

I feel he changed his philosophy after the G.M. meetings. I don't think he originally intended to go the route he did, say with the bullpen but felt he had to because the Sox simply couldn't afford quality players everywhere. Everywhere being the operative word.

As he put it, he wanted to put the team in a situation to contend now and in the immediate future.

Many many people said at the time of his statement that doing something like that was extremely rare and very difficult to pull off, apparently they were right.

Complicating matters is that every one that I've seen (except Kenny) feels the market will remain as high next season.

If it does, I have no idea what the Sox can do, short of boosting payroll to maybe 115-120 million.

I simply don't know if that's possible. And at this point I have no idea what Kenny's operating philosophy is going to be.

Clearly there are major holes in the team...can he solve ALL of them in a single off-season?

Lip

How much do you think the team has bankrolled the last two seasons and how much will projected revenue decrease in '08 vs. '07?

The Sox made a killing the last two seasons with gate and media increases. How much of that payoff will go to Jerry and his group? Will any go into improving the team or scouting/minor league development?

areilly
06-12-2007, 11:02 PM
Well, he fixed a lot of ills between 2004 and 2005. This club was pretty bad the last two months of 2004, and it turned around pretty quickly after he retooled. It's going to take some bold moves, for sure.


So that's one offseason out of how many? You can't just say "Kenny did it that one time" and assume he can do it again.

JB98
06-12-2007, 11:14 PM
So that's one offseason out of how many? You can't just say "Kenny did it that one time" and assume he can do it again.

Why are you being an ass? I said it's going to take some bold moves. Can he do it? I don't know. But he's earned the right to try to fix this. Period.

Hitmen77
06-13-2007, 09:42 AM
I don't agree with this notion that tons of people are jumping off the bandwagon. I haven't seen it. The Sox aren't going to suddenly go back to their 2004 attendance figures.

Hitmen77
06-13-2007, 09:42 AM
The Sox have averaged over 30,000 per home game so far this year. The gate has dropped a little bit, but not much.

Money, not a real big concern for me.

JB:

The Sox are off 2,500 per game for the same number of home dates at this point in time compared to 2007.

Lip

But weather has been TERRIBLE for the Sox this year. I wouldn't attribute all of the 2500 dropoff to "bandwagon fans"

spiffie
06-13-2007, 10:31 AM
But weather has been TERRIBLE for the Sox this year. I wouldn't attribute all of the 2500 dropoff to "bandwagon fans"
There are multiple factors. Yes the weather has been awful, killing walkup business (traditionally a strong point for the Sox I believe). However not only has the attendance been driven down by bad weather/bad play, but how much are they losing due to the no-shows? All the concessions money, the parking money, all that income that comes with getting people in the park has to be suffering some this year. I know I have seen plenty of games with a large announced attendance due to all the preseason ticket sales, but with half that many in the park shivering through yet another 40 degree and rainy game.

Hitmen77
06-13-2007, 11:19 AM
There are multiple factors. Yes the weather has been awful, killing walkup business (traditionally a strong point for the Sox I believe). However not only has the attendance been driven down by bad weather/bad play, but how much are they losing due to the no-shows? All the concessions money, the parking money, all that income that comes with getting people in the park has to be suffering some this year. I know I have seen plenty of games with a large announced attendance due to all the preseason ticket sales, but with half that many in the park shivering through yet another 40 degree and rainy game.

It's simply amazing how the weather turns rotten as soon as the Sox return home. It's been very warm and dry here in general since late April - and yet the Sox still managed to catch a bunch of rainy and/or cold nights.

ewokpelts
06-13-2007, 12:23 PM
When is the last time the Twins or A's were truly a contender? Sure, they build teams capable of making the playoffs quite often only to be overmatched by better teams once they get there. The last time either of those teams was a true contender was long before Billy Beane came along. They both end up losing their best players year after year because they won't/can't pay to keep high priced talent. You think Hunter will be around next year? Santana in a couple of years? The A's are little more than a farm team for the bigger clubs. Giambi, Zito, Hudson, Mulder, Damon, the list is endless. Even when they sign FA's they are bargain basement guys coming off injury who leave as soon as they have a decent season with the A's (Dye, Frank). um...the twinkies have won 4 out of 5 division titles, and went to the alcs. the a's went to the alcs last year, and won thew division/wild card almost every year since 2000. they get in. something the sox have a hard time doing.

the sox have only 4 playoff berths since reinsdorf bought the team, and only one of those actually resulted in them advancing.

ewokpelts
06-13-2007, 12:29 PM
I'm waiting anxiously for *******s to drop thier st plans. there's a lot of language filter evasion that feel that since they are in the bleachers, they can sit anwhere, put thier feet up, lick the becnhes, and so on. oh, and heckle OUR players while getting completely blitzed. it's like wrigley out there.

pmck003
06-13-2007, 01:01 PM
So does anyone think the bandwagoners won't come back when the Sox win again? Really, I don't see any justification to being even a little satisfied by the fact that a few jerks are hopefully leaving because the Sox are losing. Its like some science fiction movie where everyone is dying, and someone going "at least I can get some peace and quiet around here blaaaaaaahhhhh:..

ewokpelts
06-13-2007, 01:48 PM
So does anyone think the bandwagoners won't come back when the Sox win again? Really, I don't see any justification to being even a little satisfied by the fact that a few jerks are hopefully leaving because the Sox are losing. Its like some science fiction movie where everyone is dying, and someone going "at least I can get some peace and quiet around here blaaaaaaahhhhh:..i just dont want them in my section 27 times a season...right behind me.