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hose
06-10-2007, 09:26 AM
I was looking at a few (non-Boras) possible free agents that the Sox might be interested in for next year.

The list of f/a is much longer but I think the Sox are going to be set at 1B, 3B, C, DH

2B- Luis Castillo good glove, good obp, good fit
SS- Eckstein
CF- Rowand
CF- Torii Hunter
OF- Ichiro
SP -Zambrano

DumpJerry
06-10-2007, 09:45 AM
During the game yesterday, they showed a graphic which indicates Gooch is one of the best 2nd basemen from 2005 to the present. He is first or second among Second Basemen in most hitting categories. I love his glove, too.

Gooch's hitting is severely overlooked by the media.

I have mixed feelings picturing Zambrano and Ozzie together in the clubhouse (think final scene of "Dr. Strangelove").

UserNameBlank
06-10-2007, 09:47 AM
I was looking at a few (non-Boras) possible free agents that the Sox might be interested in for next year.

The list of f/a is much longer but I think the Sox are going to be set at 1B, 3B, C, DH

2B- Luis Castillo good glove, good obp, good fit
SS- Eckstein
CF- Rowand
CF- Torii Hunter
OF- Ichiro
SP -Zambrano
Let me add a little more realism to this list:

2B Castillo - 3 years, 16-21 million
SS Eckstein - 3 years, 16-21 million
CF Rowand - 3 years, 18-21 million
CF Hunter - 5 years, 80 million
CF Ichiro - 5 years, 90 million
SP Zambrano - 5-7 years, 90-133 million

Meanwhile the Sox need to rebuild. Somehow I don't think we're going to be stocking up on FA this offseason.

IndianWhiteSox
06-10-2007, 10:20 AM
Let me add a little more realism to this list:

2B Castillo - 3 years, 16-21 million
SS Eckstein - 3 years, 16-21 million
CF Rowand - 3 years, 18-21 million
CF Hunter - 5 years, 80 million
CF Ichiro - 5 years, 90 million
SP Zambrano - 5-7 years, 90-133 million

Meanwhile the Sox need to rebuild. Somehow I don't think we're going to be stocking up on FA this offseason.

**** rebuilding, especially with the free agent classes coming up in the next two years. The Sox need to unload(Thome, PK, Dye) and reload (A-Rod, Eckstein, Ichiro, Patterson, Jones, Castillo) with some of this talent. Plus at worst, these FAs would let the kids develop in the minors anyway. If the sox sign Castillo, then you can have him and Iguchi split time between 2B and DH, thus keeping them fresh during the season.

hose
06-10-2007, 12:06 PM
Iguchi's contract includes a clause requiring White Sox to sign him to an extension by sometime in 2007, or release him. This would grant Iguchi free agency after only 3 years of ML service.

I haven't heard KW mention anything on Gooch so I figure 2nd base is open for next year. If the Sox decide to re-sign Tadihito then I think it would be pretty solid.

Uribe is my favorite White Sox but I would rather have more .obp and small ball ability as far as bunting or hit and running from my SS. Juan's power numbers are good but he just doesn't make enough contact on a consistent basis.

KW could buy out his option for 2008 at a small price and let him walk.

jabrch
06-10-2007, 01:00 PM
Of that list, Ichiro is the most interesting. I don't think there's a chance we pay Zambrano what he wants, not given Buehrle also being a FA. If we are going to spend the money, we will spend it on Mark, not Carlos.

oeo
06-10-2007, 01:03 PM
During the game yesterday, they showed a graphic which indicates Gooch is one of the best 2nd basemen from 2005 to the present. He is first or second among Second Basemen in most hitting categories. I love his glove, too.

Gooch's hitting is severely overlooked by the media.

I have mixed feelings picturing Zambrano and Ozzie together in the clubhouse (think final scene of "Dr. Strangelove").

People need to back off Iguchi a little bit. He's been solid, and still is solid for us. He made a couple of bad errors early in the season, but who's to say he only has two more the rest of the year? Judging his defense off of a few games is ridiculous; I think he looks more comfortable out there this year than the last two.

balke
06-10-2007, 01:49 PM
I took a small jab at Iguchi this week, but he's a great 2Bman. He's just one of the many slumpers on this team. He was completely lost at the plate to start the season, but he's come around a long way.

crazyozzie02
06-10-2007, 01:50 PM
**** rebuilding, especially with the free agent classes coming up in the next two years. The Sox need to unload(Thome, PK, Dye) .

i disagree. I could see letting dye go, but i think you keep thome around becasue of the leadership and the same for konerko. even if you rebulid, you still need to have a good veteran core to bulid around.

Lip Man 1
06-10-2007, 02:05 PM
User:

I disagree with you.

I think he's going to reload and free agents are going to be a part of it because:

1. Of his published comments over the years he has been the G.M. If he does something else then he looks like a liar.

2. Because of what would happen at the gate if he did.

3. Because frankly, what choice does he have? It's not like the minor league system is brimming with future superstars. He may have a few productive role players in the system but that's it.

Perhaps Daver who knows the Sox minor league system but do a story or a post on what exactly's down there and realistically who has a chance to help the team.

Lip

balke
06-10-2007, 02:15 PM
User:

I disagree with you.

I think he's going to reload and free agents are going to be a part of it because:

1. Of his published comments over the years he has been the G.M. If he does something else then he looks like a liar.

2. Because of what would happen at the gate if he did.

3. Because frankly, what choice does he have? It's not like the minor league system is brimming with future superstars. He may have a few productive role players in the system but that's it.

Perhaps Daver who knows the Sox minor league system but do a story or a post on what exactly's down there and realistically who has a chance to help the team.

Lip

We've pretty much seen our minor league system already in the majors. Not much to look at so far. Good pitchers are still down there it looks like, but the bats haven't looked impressive at all.

Flight #24
06-10-2007, 02:30 PM
Of that list, Ichiro is the most interesting. I don't think there's a chance we pay Zambrano what he wants, not given Buehrle also being a FA. If we are going to spend the money, we will spend it on Mark, not Carlos.

Ichiro at $18M or ARod at $25 is a no-brainer to take ARod. Better player, younger, will likely end up as the all-time HR champ, and in the discussion for best player ever.

And Ichiro+Uribe = $23M. Yes, you'd still need a CF, but a stopgap CF (or Anderson/Owens/Sweeney) and ARod >> Ichiro+Uribe.

ARod is the perfect guy for the Sox at this stage. They have young pitching, and while I think it was a strategic error for Kenny to focus on that in terms of 2007, I believe that by 2008, the relief arms will be improved and you'll have at least one more youngster ready. Add Alex and ARod-Thome-Konerko is a killer middle of the order. It lets you use some of your OF youth, which doesn't project to have big power but provides excellent D. Pods-Anderson/Erstad/Owens-Sweeney and ARod is superior to Pods-Anderson/Erstad/Sweeney/Owens-Dye and Uribe. If you're really feeling like going for it, you move Fields to LF and plug a (hopefully) healthy Crede in at 3B. Then if you want or have to, you can deal him mid-season for an OF and move Josh back to 3B.

Plus there's the revenue hit the team will take this year because of how bad they are. There was already a note that attendance is down, and it ain't jumping up anytime soon. Alex is a draw. That level of acquisition also signals that management thinks big rather than retrenches. It also addresses the fact that the farm is ultra-thin on position players. And long-term, you'll have the revenue advantage to having the guy chasing Bonds record. And it'll be a guy who never had any PED hints about him either.

It might not happen, but it would IMO be the smart move for the team.

UserNameBlank
06-10-2007, 03:39 PM
User:

I disagree with you.

I think he's going to reload and free agents are going to be a part of it because:

1. Of his published comments over the years he has been the G.M. If he does something else then he looks like a liar.

2. Because of what would happen at the gate if he did.

3. Because frankly, what choice does he have? It's not like the minor league system is brimming with future superstars. He may have a few productive role players in the system but that's it.

Perhaps Daver who knows the Sox minor league system but do a story or a post on what exactly's down there and realistically who has a chance to help the team.

Lip
Sox fans care more about winning than names, which is apparent every year including this one with the recent Yankees series. If the team was in better shape more tickets would have been sold. The Sox fanbase will always be like that because we don't play in a shrine and winning actually means something.

If KW is going to opt for a medicore present and mediocre future over a bad present and a bright future, he is a bad GM IMO. I don't believe he is a bad GM though and I trust that he will do whatever is necessary to assemble a young core that can win for several years. If this last offseason is any indication, he will go more towards youth and less towards overpriced veterans getting all kinds of cash thrown at them for career years.

I can see him signing solid stopgaps, but I highly doubt he will throw a ton of money at a player in his mid-thirties. Mark and Jon I can see because they are still young and in their prime, neither have scary deliveries, and neither have had serious injury issues.

Maybe we don't have the best minor league system out there, but just because Anderson, Fields, and Sweeney haven't exactly looked like HOF'ers up here doesn't mean they're garbage. Anderson and Sweeney can become very solid starters at their positions and Fields has a chance to be a star. We also have quite a few potential #3-5 starters in the high minor leagues. It's not like KW has nothing to work with here.

MRM
06-10-2007, 03:50 PM
I was looking at a few (non-Boras) possible free agents that the Sox might be interested in for next year.

The list of f/a is much longer but I think the Sox are going to be set at 1B, 3B, C, DH

2B- Luis Castillo good glove, good obp, good fit
SS- Eckstein
CF- Rowand
CF- Torii Hunter
OF- Ichiro
SP -Zambrano

I'll be surprised if Iguchi isn't re-signed. There really is no reason not to sign him. He won't be any more expensive than any other FA 2B, he's comfortable with the Sox, and they are comfortable with him. This one's a no-brainer to me.

Eckstein? Not a chance. Uribe isn't going anywhere unless ARod somehow ended up on the South side AND moved back to SS.

Hunter and Ichiro will be far too expensive and neither is a spring chicken anymore. Rowand is much more of a possibility.

Zambrano? No freakin way, for a lot of reasons. The #1 reason being if the Sox are going to spend that much money on a starter, it will go to MB, not the mentally disturbed dude from the north side.

I'm not sure how you figure the Sox are set at 3B for next year. Credes balky back certainly can't be counted on and Fields hasn't shown a thing at the MLB level, yet.

DSpivack
06-10-2007, 04:57 PM
I'll be surprised if Iguchi isn't re-signed. There really is no reason not to sign him. He won't be any more expensive than any other FA 2B, he's comfortable with the Sox, and they are comfortable with him. This one's a no-brainer to me.

Eckstein? Not a chance. Uribe isn't going anywhere unless ARod somehow ended up on the South side AND moved back to SS.

Hunter and Ichiro will be far too expensive and neither is a spring chicken anymore. Rowand is much more of a possibility.

Zambrano? No freakin way, for a lot of reasons. The #1 reason being if the Sox are going to spend that much money on a starter, it will go to MB, not the mentally disturbed dude from the north side.

I'm not sure how you figure the Sox are set at 3B for next year. Credes balky back certainly can't be counted on and Fields hasn't shown a thing at the MLB level, yet.

If A-Rod does end up opting out, then I expect him to hit the free agent market as a SS, not a 3B. Honestly, I wouldn't be that surprised if he ends up back on the Yankees, or at least he doesn't opt out.

Ichiro is far away the better player than Rowand or Hunter, and worth whatever difference in price. Rowand should get a lot more than he is worth on the market, if he keeps up the pace this year.

hose
06-10-2007, 04:58 PM
It looks like Fields will be getting plenty of pt at 3rd this year with Crede's injury. Fields is the Sox 3rd baseman of the future and I can't see Kenny going after another 3rd baseman in free agent market.

Crede + bad back + Boras = he gone in Sox future

SS is where the Sox have to improve at .obp. Uribe is solid with the glove but he is basically an automatic out. I think the Sox can go out in the free agent market and improve at SS.

Daver
06-10-2007, 05:39 PM
User:

I disagree with you.

I think he's going to reload and free agents are going to be a part of it because:

1. Of his published comments over the years he has been the G.M. If he does something else then he looks like a liar.

2. Because of what would happen at the gate if he did.

3. Because frankly, what choice does he have? It's not like the minor league system is brimming with future superstars. He may have a few productive role players in the system but that's it.

Perhaps Daver who knows the Sox minor league system but do a story or a post on what exactly's down there and realistically who has a chance to help the team.

Lip

You never know where a superstar is coming from, no one expected Albert Pujols to do what he has done.

As far as help for the Sox from the minors, Gio Gonzalez is close to ready to step into the rotation as a fifth starter, but pitchers never seem to hit their stride till they are 25-28 years old, Robert Valido could compete for the SS job in ST, defensively he's ready, but he is struggling to stay consistent against minor league pitching. Brian Anderson and Ryan Sweeney are both tweeners at this point, they both struggle against MLB pitching, but they also don't face MLB pitching in Charlotte, they both need consistent at bats against top quality pitching to improve, but you don't get that chance when the big league team is competing for the playoffs. Josh Fields will probably never be the defensive player Joe Crede is, but he can take over at third base should Crede not return, and the drop would not be huge defensively, but his offensive skills at this level have yet to be seen.

soxfanreggie
06-10-2007, 05:57 PM
I think the Sox will make a major push for Rowand. I think he is a good CF for us and a major favorite of the fans. In addition, I don't think that we are going to get Zambrano. He's going to want at least 6 years $96 mil or more. We don't do that with pitchers.

As for A-Rod, I would like to see us get him, but I don't see us spending the money on him with what we have locked up in other players, unless mgmt. is willing to spend more, we won't get him or Ichiro.

I do like the thought of Fields, A-Rod, Gooch, and PK in the infield. I think that would mean Dye and Crede are gone, but with A-Rod, I'm ok with that.

jabrch
06-10-2007, 06:02 PM
Ichiro at $18M or ARod at $25 is a no-brainer to take ARod. Better player, younger, will likely end up as the all-time HR champ, and in the discussion for best player ever.

Well - first off, he wasn't on the list.

Second, he isn't a FA.

Third, we aren't going to pay $25mm for one player.

That said, I agree - I'd take A-Rod over ANY player in major league baseball (contracts not withstanding). But on the list of FA that started this thread, Alex didn't appear. He is not a FA.

jabrch
06-10-2007, 06:03 PM
We've pretty much seen our minor league system already in the majors. Not much to look at so far. Good pitchers are still down there it looks like, but the bats haven't looked impressive at all.

I'm nowhere close to ready to write off our minor league bats (Sweeney, BA and Fields). Are you?

Daver
06-10-2007, 06:22 PM
I think the Sox will make a major push for Rowand.





You're kidding right?

hose
06-10-2007, 06:22 PM
I'm nowhere close to ready to write off our minor league bats (Sweeney, BA and Fields). Are you?

I think KW is ready to write off BA but Sweeney and Fields are going to be part of the teams future.

If BA could turn it around I would love to see him patrolling CF at the Cell for the next 8-10 years.

MRM
06-10-2007, 06:53 PM
Well - first off, he wasn't on the list.

Second, he isn't a FA.

Third, we aren't going to pay $25mm for one player.

That said, I agree - I'd take A-Rod over ANY player in major league baseball (contracts not withstanding). But on the list of FA that started this thread, Alex didn't appear. He is not a FA.

He most certainly can be if he wants to be. He has the option to void the remainder of his contract after this season, which he is likely to do.

jabrch
06-10-2007, 07:01 PM
He most certainly can be if he wants to be. He has the option to void the remainder of his contract after this season, which he is likely to do.

He's not a FA. He has made it fairly clear he doesn't want to leave NY. I'm not sure why you are so confident that he is going to give up that size deal - and I'm not sure anyone out there will exceed the 25mm he is expecting to make.

Flight #24
06-10-2007, 08:12 PM
He's not a FA. He has made it fairly clear he doesn't want to leave NY. I'm not sure why you are so confident that he is going to give up that size deal - and I'm not sure anyone out there will exceed the 25mm he is expecting to make.

He'll get something similar. When Soriano gets $17-18M, ARod will get $22-25M. And it'l be on a longer deal, so even if his avg declines slightly, he'll get a lot more in his new deal than by staying with the Yanks. Plus, his comments on staying seem a lot like Kenny's comments on BA or on how execution is what matters - they're belied by his actions.

ARod is still getting skewered by the NY fans, media, and his teammates. He got more support from Ozzie regarding the situation in Toronto than he did from Torre. And interestingly, when that happened, the entire Blue Jay bench was supposedly up ready to come on the field - but there wasn't a Yankee getting ready to defend him.

Financially and from a comfort standpoint, I see Alex opting out. I put it at 98%. And if he does, he'd be a great sign for the Sox even at $25M. And if they're willing to go to $17-18 for Ichiro then they ought to be willing to do $25 for ARod. But if they're not willing to do that for Ichiro (or other "lead" FAs), then they're deciding to be mediocre at best because the farm system seems highly unlikely to be producing lead caliber position players with much frequency over the next couple of years.

UserNameBlank
06-10-2007, 08:26 PM
ARod is still getting skewered by the NY fans, media, and his teammates. He got more support from Ozzie regarding the situation in Toronto than he did from Torre. And interestingly, when that happened, the entire Blue Jay bench was supposedly up ready to come on the field - but there wasn't a Yankee getting ready to defend him.
That's messed up. ARod is the one guy who will break Bonds' record when he breaks Aaron's and bring some respect back to the HR record.

When all is said and done, ARod will go down as one of the very best players to ever step on the field, perhaps even the greatest ever. And I guarantee that when that happens, when he finally retires, these same Yankee fans who boo the **** out of him will walk around with their retro ARod jerseys talking about how he was the greatest player they had ever seen.

On ARod's play, baseball is a game of trickery. It's a game of smarts, luck, guessing, second-guessing, and everything else. What he did was perfectly fine, and if it's true that other Yankees players wouldn't have backed him, then maybe that is more of a reason why the Yanks haven't done anything in the playoffs. I don't know how anyone could look at his career and say "yeah, he sucks."

People talk about how he makes too much money. You know who makes too much money? Dave Roberts. Chad Bradford. Paul Byrd. If these guys make what they do, ARod's contract certainly is justified.

That said, I'd love ARod but I don't want him on the team unless the Sox raise the payroll enough to field a competitive team around him. Signing ARod and then complaining about staying at around 90-100 million in payroll isn't going to work. Pitching is most important, and that costs money. If the choice is re-sign Mark and Jon to long term deals or take on ARod, I'll take the pitching every time.

Flight #24
06-10-2007, 08:36 PM
That said, I'd love ARod but I don't want him on the team unless the Sox raise the payroll enough to field a competitive team around him. Signing ARod and then complaining about staying at around 90-100 million in payroll isn't going to work. Pitching is most important, and that costs money. If the choice is re-sign Mark and Jon to long term deals or take on ARod, I'll take the pitching every time.

In 2007, Joe Crede, Mark Buehrle, Jermaine Dye, Juan Uribe, Jose Contreras: will make $35M.

A $5M increase in salary lets you field a team of Fields, Burls, Sweeney, ARod, Gio.

I'll take that latter team in a heartbeat.

And if the Sox are going to stick with no increase in payroll, then given salary escalation, they're committing to not signing more than 1 major FAs. If that is the case, my choice would be Alex over Mark. My rationale is that the one area where the Sox system could be considered to be strong is SPs. So they at least have a chance of replacing Mark internally within the next 2-3 years if they let him go. There is no real impact offensive player pending except maybe for Fields.

MRM
06-10-2007, 08:55 PM
He's not a FA. He has made it fairly clear he doesn't want to leave NY. I'm not sure why you are so confident that he is going to give up that size deal - and I'm not sure anyone out there will exceed the 25mm he is expecting to make.

He only has 3 years left on that original deal. Someone will definately give him a much longer term deal than 3 years. So, even if it's for 7 years at, say, $22mil/yr he's much better off in the long run. You have to remember that MLB contracts are guaranteed so the number of years often are more important than the yearly salary. If he were to suffer any kind of reduced production or, worse, sustain a major injury over those three years, his earning potential drops substantially. Right now he is in a prime position to work a long term deal, three years from now maybe not so much.

And why would you assume nobody would give him $25mil/yr, anyhow? What did the Yankees just give Clemens? $28mil (albiet prorated to the time he's actually going to play). Even assuming ARod does want to stay with the Yankees (those crys ring hollow with me) he'll likely get a better (at least longer) deal from them by opting out and hitting the open market.

The Angels would certainly welcome him with an open wallet. Probably the Mets, Dodgers, and Red Sox as well. The White Sox tried to sign him the last time he was a FA and have been rumored almost yearly to be trying to trade for him. ARod is the best player of this generation hands down. He won't lose a dime in the long run by opting out.
Not opting out could cost him dearly, though.

SoxxoS
06-11-2007, 12:31 AM
And if the Sox are going to stick with no increase in payroll, then given salary escalation, they're committing to not signing more than 1 major FAs. If that is the case, my choice would be Alex over Mark. My rationale is that the one area where the Sox system could be considered to be strong is SPs. So they at least have a chance of replacing Mark internally within the next 2-3 years if they let him go. There is no real impact offensive player pending except maybe for Fields.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing in 2000 when we had "too many arms" -

Jon Rauch, Aaron Myette, Malone, Honel, Ginter, Barcelo

The list goes on. Give me the proven guy in Buehrle, and I love AROD. IF we had to choose one, of course.

The Sox better resign Buehrle...starting pitching is hard to find...left handed, proven injury-free starting pitching is almost impossbile without paying 135 million for it (Overrated Zito).

Flight #24
06-11-2007, 03:58 PM
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing in 2000 when we had "too many arms" -

Jon Rauch, Aaron Myette, Malone, Honel, Ginter, Barcelo

The list goes on. Give me the proven guy in Buehrle, and I love AROD. IF we had to choose one, of course.

The Sox better resign Buehrle...starting pitching is hard to find...left handed, proven injury-free starting pitching is almost impossbile without paying 135 million for it (Overrated Zito).

True, but the Sox are in far better position now than back in 2000. For the next 2-3 eyars, they have a guarantee of Garland-Contreras-Vazquez-Danks. So all they need it a single guy.

If it comes down to one or the other of ARod or Burls, I'd go ARod in a heartbeat. He's a true "decade" player, and even though pitcvhing can be hard to develop, at least the Sox have SOME options there - they don't really have any for position players, esp with Crede down for a while.

balke
06-11-2007, 04:16 PM
True, but the Sox are in far better position now than back in 2000. For the next 2-3 eyars, they have a guarantee of Garland-Contreras-Vazquez-Danks. So all they need it a single guy.

If it comes down to one or the other of ARod or Burls, I'd go ARod in a heartbeat. He's a true "decade" player, and even though pitcvhing can be hard to develop, at least the Sox have SOME options there - they don't really have any for position players, esp with Crede down for a while.


We could buy 2 Buehrle's for A-Rod money. A-rod is awesome, but I have some loyalty to Buehrle. He's to me the face of the White Sox. With 5 good pitchers, the door is always open to winning for the Sox. They also will be able to trade for nice players if they have pitchers locked up to good long deals. I think Buehrle is the way to go, but the savings aside for a less expensive OFer, where the Sox truly need help.

Flight #24
06-11-2007, 04:30 PM
We could buy 2 Buehrle's for A-Rod money. A-rod is awesome, but I have some loyalty to Buehrle. He's to me the face of the White Sox. With 5 good pitchers, the door is always open to winning for the Sox. They also will be able to trade for nice players if they have pitchers locked up to good long deals. I think Buehrle is the way to go, but the savings aside for a less expensive OFer, where the Sox truly need help.

Buehrle = $16+M, ARod will probably be around $25. The $9M difference would get you Adam Eaton, if that floats your boat. The question is whether you'd rather have the following:

- Contreras-Buehrle-Garland-Vazquez-Danks and Fields-Crede-Uribe
or
- Swap in a rookie for Buehrle above (moving everyone else up a slot) and have Sweeney-Fields-ARod.

The former is IMO great, but a recipe for a lot of 2-1 and 3-2 losses. The latter will get more wins even if the rookie #5 struggles. Plus, the Sox have talented rookies with great potential at SP, not so in the field (except maybe at 3B).

But my preference would be to deal Contereas/Vazquez, resign Mark, and sign ARod.

balke
06-11-2007, 05:04 PM
Buehrle = $16+M, ARod will probably be around $25. The $9M difference would get you Adam Eaton, if that floats your boat.

Buehrle will actually do something in the playoffs if we get there with him, where as A-Rod has proven time and again he will not.

DSpivack
06-11-2007, 05:11 PM
Buehrle will actually do something in the playoffs if we get there with him, where as A-Rod has proven time and again he will not.

A-Rod's regular season career .305/.387/.576. Postseason career: .280/.362/.485. He didn't hit well in the playoffs with the Yankees the last two series, but hit pretty darn well in 2001 with the Yanks and with the Mariners before that.

I'd take my chances with a guy whose average season is .306 with 44 HRs and 126 RBIs.

balke
06-11-2007, 05:25 PM
Like I said, its very uncharacteristic of the Sox to sign the big free agent everyone is after. I'd be ecstatic if we got A-Rod, but right now I'd say we won't see A-Rod in a Sox uniform in the next 15 years.

I'd be happy with Buehrle, and whatever Kenny could do with the money leftover. Knowing him, it would be a lot. What'd he snag Contreras for? 7-8 mil? That was big spending then. People went nuts over that salary. Tough to believe pitchers like that are costing 10-16mil.

balke
06-11-2007, 05:29 PM
I'm nowhere close to ready to write off our minor league bats (Sweeney, BA and Fields). Are you?


I've seen Fields, Sweeney, Jeremy Reed, BA, CYoung, and Jerry Owens. Not a one of them has been what they were advertised to be so far. They aren't "written off", but they haven't produced aside from Jeremy Reed and CYoung's hot starts that fizzled into sparks.

jabrch
06-11-2007, 05:31 PM
Buehrle will actually do something in the playoffs if we get there with him, where as A-Rod has proven time and again he will not.

Oh no - you don't really believe that do you?

In 2004, for the Yanks, in the ALDS, he hit .421/.476/.737
In the 2000 ALCS he hit .409/.480/.773
In the 2000 ALDS, AGAINST US, he hit .308.
In the 1997 ALDS he hit .313/.313/.563

You don't really believe that 29 bad ABs (and even in 05, he didn't hit, but he had a .381 obp) mean he has "proven time and time again" that he won't hit in the post season?

And at the same time, Buehrle had 1 very good post season start, 2 mediocre ones, and a relief outing. That's no more conclusive than the numbers on A-Rod.

balke
06-11-2007, 05:45 PM
And at the same time, Buehrle had 1 very good post season start, 2 mediocre ones, and a relief outing. That's no more conclusive than the numbers on A-Rod.


Mark Buehrle can win games by himself. A-Rod is one hitter out of 9 who costs 25 mil, and potentially more than that this offseason. A durable pitcher who's been grown by this team, who has history here, and who costs anywhere from 9-15 mil less than A-Rod is the way to go.

A-Rod's had 35 postseason games. 0 Rings. He's part of a team that dropped a 3-0 lead to Boston. For the money, I'd stick with pitching.

DSpivack
06-11-2007, 05:54 PM
Mark Buehrle can win games by himself. A-Rod is one hitter out of 9 who costs 25 mil, and potentially more than that this offseason. A durable pitcher who's been grown by this team, who has history here, and who costs anywhere from 9-15 mil less than A-Rod is the way to go.

A-Rod's had 35 postseason games. 0 Rings. He's part of a team that dropped a 3-0 lead to Boston. For the money, I'd stick with pitching.

A-Rod is only one one of 9, and yet somehow susceptible for the Yankees blowing it vs Boston, in a series where he hit 2 HRs and 5 RBIs? I think A-Rod is more worth $25 mil than Buehrle is $18 mil. A-Rod is the best player in the game, and one of the top 5 pure hitters, if not #1. Buehrle is far from being the best pitcher.

russ99
06-11-2007, 06:06 PM
Let me add a little more realism to this list:

CF Rowand - 3 years, 18-21 million

Man, I'd love to see Rowand back on the South Side, but to give 6-7 millon per year for 3 years to a center fielder moving into the declining years of his career would be pretty stupid.

Maybe Aaron would give the Sox a substantial discount?

MRM
06-11-2007, 06:09 PM
Like I said, its very uncharacteristic of the Sox to sign the big free agent everyone is after.

Does the name Albert Belle ring a bell?

MRM
06-11-2007, 06:12 PM
Man, I'd love to see Rowand back on the South Side, but to give 6-7 millon per year for 3 years to a center fielder moving into the declining years of his career would be pretty stupid.

Declining years of his career? He's 29 years old. Most hitters peak years are between the ages of 28-34.

balke
06-11-2007, 06:33 PM
A-Rod is only one one of 9, and yet somehow susceptible for the Yankees blowing it vs Boston, in a series where he hit 2 HRs and 5 RBIs? I think A-Rod is more worth $25 mil than Buehrle is $18 mil. A-Rod is the best player in the game, and one of the top 5 pure hitters, if not #1. Buehrle is far from being the best pitcher.

Buehrle won't get 18 million. Zito only got 16. A-Rod might get more than 25 if Clemens can get 25, and A-rod wins another MVP.

I'll take him but the Sox will never pay the money A-Rod is going to ask.

balke
06-11-2007, 06:40 PM
Does the name Albert Belle ring a bell?

That didn't get the Sox to the playoffs.

lostfan
06-11-2007, 07:06 PM
I've seen Fields, Sweeney, Jeremy Reed, BA, CYoung, and Jerry Owens. Not a one of them has been what they were advertised to be so far. They aren't "written off", but they haven't produced aside from Jeremy Reed and CYoung's hot starts that fizzled into sparks.
Do you expect everyone to look like Ken Griffey Jr. did in his rookie season when they first get called up to the majors? It doesn't always work out that way.

MRM
06-11-2007, 07:23 PM
That didn't get the Sox to the playoffs.

What's that got to do with anything? You said it is uncharacteristic of the Sox to sign a FA that alot of teams are after. They signed Belle. They certainly tried to sign ARod the first time he was a FA. They had a deal in place to send Maggs to Boston in a three team deal with Texas involving ARod to the Sox and Manny to the Rangers. Reinsdorf has never shied away from going after big names, he just refuses to get into ridiculous bidding wars that result in quarter of a billion $$ contracts.

UserNameBlank
06-11-2007, 08:37 PM
Buehrle = $16+M, ARod will probably be around $25. The $9M difference would get you Adam Eaton, if that floats your boat. The question is whether you'd rather have the following:

- Contreras-Buehrle-Garland-Vazquez-Danks and Fields-Crede-Uribe
or
- Swap in a rookie for Buehrle above (moving everyone else up a slot) and have Sweeney-Fields-ARod.

The former is IMO great, but a recipe for a lot of 2-1 and 3-2 losses. The latter will get more wins even if the rookie #5 struggles. Plus, the Sox have talented rookies with great potential at SP, not so in the field (except maybe at 3B).

But my preference would be to deal Contereas/Vazquez, resign Mark, and sign ARod.

You could look at it that way, or you could look at it like $30mil/year gets you either Buehrle and Garland or Arod and Scott Schoenweis.

balke
06-11-2007, 08:39 PM
What's that got to do with anything? You said it is uncharacteristic of the Sox to sign a FA that alot of teams are after. They signed Belle. They certainly tried to sign ARod the first time he was a FA. They had a deal in place to send Maggs to Boston in a three team deal with Texas involving ARod to the Sox and Manny to the Rangers. Reinsdorf has never shied away from going after big names, he just refuses to get into ridiculous bidding wars that result in quarter of a billion $$ contracts.


Its been 10 years since that deal, and it hasn't happened again. Having Thomas and Belle in the same lineup didn't get them to the playoffs, and that's why you stick with good starting pitching. Cheaper, more effective.

Flight #24
06-11-2007, 10:58 PM
You could look at it that way, or you could look at it like $30mil/year gets you either Buehrle and Garland or Arod and Scott Schoenweis.

That would be wrong since Garland's on the team either way.

champagne030
06-11-2007, 11:07 PM
What's that got to do with anything? You said it is uncharacteristic of the Sox to sign a FA that alot of teams are after. They signed Belle. They certainly tried to sign ARod the first time he was a FA. They had a deal in place to send Maggs to Boston in a three team deal with Texas involving ARod to the Sox and Manny to the Rangers. Reinsdorf has never shied away from going after big names, he just refuses to get into ridiculous bidding wars that result in quarter of a billion $$ contracts.

IIRC, we were getting Mia Hamm's husband, the Sawx were getting AROD plus Magglio, and Texas was getting Manny.

Hitmen77
06-11-2007, 11:56 PM
Buehrle = $16+M, ARod will probably be around $25. The $9M difference would get you Adam Eaton, if that floats your boat. The question is whether you'd rather have the following:

- Contreras-Buehrle-Garland-Vazquez-Danks and Fields-Crede-Uribe
or
- Swap in a rookie for Buehrle above (moving everyone else up a slot) and have Sweeney-Fields-ARod.

The former is IMO great, but a recipe for a lot of 2-1 and 3-2 losses. The latter will get more wins even if the rookie #5 struggles. Plus, the Sox have talented rookies with great potential at SP, not so in the field (except maybe at 3B).

But my preference would be to deal Contereas/Vazquez, resign Mark, and sign ARod.

If the Sox are able to sign Buehrle, I fully expect them to turn around and trade either Garland, Contreras, or Vazquez next winter to unload a $10-12 million salary.

One way or another, for spring training '08 I expect them to have another competition for 5th starter between at least Gio, Floyd, and Broadway. If we can keep Buehrle for $16 million/yr (~$7 million raise) and trade another starter, that'll result in a net decrease of at least $3 million paid to our starting rotation. (I hope i'm figuring this out right - otherwise :redface:)

I'd be happy if they signed Mark and then traded either Jose or Javy (not Garland) for our next Danks/Gio type player - or a position player - instead of just letting Mark walk.

For the non-pitchers, I really think A-Rod is just a pipe dream that just isn't going to happen.

A. Cavatica
06-12-2007, 12:01 AM
Declining years of his career? He's 29 years old. Most hitters peak years are between the ages of 28-34.

26-28.

Hitmen77
06-12-2007, 12:06 AM
I think the Sox will make a major push for Rowand.

You're kidding right?

Why is that hard to believe? He didn't necessarily say we should make a push for Rowand. But, KW seems to love the guy, Rowand is apparently still very fond of the Sox, and we're likely to have at least 1 hole to fill in the OF for next year.

Whether it's the best move for the Sox or not, I can see it happening.

MRM
06-12-2007, 03:04 AM
26-28.

Maybe 30 years ago. Not now.

Chicken Dinner
06-12-2007, 12:25 PM
I don't see Kenny paying anyone over 15 mil a year.

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 12:48 PM
That would be wrong since Garland's on the team either way.
Not really. Garland is a FA after '08 and if we don't extend him this offseason we'll be going through the same thing with him next year that we are going through with Buehrle now.

UserNameBlank
06-12-2007, 12:52 PM
Why is that hard to believe? He didn't necessarily say we should make a push for Rowand. But, KW seems to love the guy, Rowand is apparently still very fond of the Sox, and we're likely to have at least 1 hole to fill in the OF for next year.

Whether it's the best move for the Sox or not, I can see it happening.
I can see it, but I hope KW is smarter than that. The hole opening up in the offseason is the hole JD will be leaving, and it is an offensive hole. If we're not going to replace Dye's production, there is no reason to sign Rowand when we already have Anderson.

ChiSoxFan7
06-16-2007, 09:25 PM
Of that list, Ichiro is the most interesting. I don't think there's a chance we pay Zambrano what he wants, not given Buehrle also being a FA. If we are going to spend the money, we will spend it on Mark, not Carlos.


Thank god for that fact.