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View Full Version : Guess trading Freddy wasn't such a bad idea...


anewman35
06-09-2007, 07:59 PM
From Rotoworld:

Phillies placed RHP Freddy Garcia on the 15-day disabled list because of a right shoulder strain.

The Phillies had to know when they acquired him that Garcia was pitching with a damaged shoulder. He's made adjustments in the past to deal with diminished velocity and should have been able to do the same this year, but the results suggest that he's been pitching in real pain lately. The Phillies haven't announced a replacement for the rotation. A Tomo Ohka acquisition would make a lot of sense.

JB98
06-09-2007, 08:29 PM
Hmmm....the Phillies knew Garcia had a damaged shoulder when they acquired him? Well, I guess we should be glad we got anything for Freddy. I didn't like the trade at the time because we didn't get any parts to help us in 2007. As it turns out, this is a deal that has helped neither team in 2007, but might benefit the Sox in the future. Gio is throwing the ball well.

santo=dorf
06-09-2007, 08:47 PM
Garcia did not have a physical before going to Philly, so how would they "have" to know his shoulder was screwed up?

CLR01
06-09-2007, 09:14 PM
Shouldergate- Rd. 2


"Maybe now that piece of **** scumbag Williams will get fired. I wouldn't work with him if he was Noah and had an arc and I was stuck in a flood."
:dumbash

PaleHoseGeorge
06-09-2007, 09:32 PM
Shouldergate- Rd. 2


"Maybe now that piece of **** scumbag Williams will get fired. I wouldn't work with him if he was Noah and had an arc and I was stuck in a flood."
:dumbash


You know what would make this perfect? If the Phillies had traded some prospect named Barry (or Berry) to Kenny.

:wink:

CLR01
06-09-2007, 09:43 PM
You know what would make this perfect? If the Phillies had traded some prospect named Barry (or Berry) to Kenny.

:wink:

Word on the street is Kenny asked for Rowand in the Garcia trade and they sent him Floyd instead. Close enough? :D:

UserNameBlank
06-10-2007, 07:09 AM
This trade still sucks. Gavin Floyd is a bust and Gio won't help us this year. If we'd have kept Freddy we'd be...

oh, right...

We'd still be screwed and we wouldn't have any pitching in the minors. Guess that Kenny Williams isn't that bad after all.

Hitmen77
06-10-2007, 09:28 AM
This trade still sucks. Gavin Floyd is a bust and Gio won't help us this year. If we'd have kept Freddy we'd be...

oh, right...

We'd still be screwed and we wouldn't have any pitching in the minors. Guess that Kenny Williams isn't that bad after all.

Exactly. After '07, Freddy would have been gone anyway. The way things are going for him, we're better off with Gio and Floyd. I think Gio is going to be a very good pitcher for the Sox - maybe as soon as next year.

I wouldn't call Floyd a bust quite yet. Since the Sox acquired him, he hasn't pitched an inning for us. He was bad in spring training - but so were alot of our other pitchers. At AAA, he's had some good outings of late. I'm not saying I'm sold on him, but declaring him a bust at this point is premature.

MRM
06-10-2007, 02:38 PM
Garcia did not have a physical before going to Philly, so how would they "have" to know his shoulder was screwed up?

Because he DID have a physical after the deal was done.

Granted, it takes a special kind of stupid to consumate a trade without making the passing of a physical a contingency, as Philly did, but Freddie did pass a physical given before spring training. If there were any concerns about him being damaged goods, they certainly would have been known at that point. (Although there is nothing Philly could have done about it, then)

oeo
06-10-2007, 10:42 PM
Garcia did not have a physical before going to Philly, so how would they "have" to know his shoulder was screwed up?

Makes you wonder if it was well known. Kenny only got Gio and Floyd (many thought he could have gotten much more), but if it was known around the league that you'd be taking a high risk on possibly a one year rental, his value went way down.

TheOldRoman
06-10-2007, 10:50 PM
Makes you wonder if it was well known. Kenny only got Gio and Floyd (many thought he could have gotten much more), but if it was known around the league that you'd be taking a high risk on possibly a one year rental, his value went way down.Kenny isn't dumb. He isn't going to take less than he could get for a player. He probably spoke with 29 GMs about Garcia. People seem to believe that KW was dumb and could have gotten a lot more, and that simply isn't the case. He knew what teams had interest, and the extent to which they did. It wasn't like he suddenly decided to trade Freddy shipped him off 5 min later. With Garcia's track record, it is obvious that other teams thought he was a huge injury risk.

jabrch
06-10-2007, 11:10 PM
Kenny got Gio and Floyd for damn near nothing. Freddy has probably negative value this year when you look at his productivity/cost ratio.

Nice move KW.

HotelWhiteSox
06-10-2007, 11:19 PM
Still could've waited longer in the offseason, there's no way to know, but I think it's common sense you could've gotten more

ilsox7
06-10-2007, 11:24 PM
Still could've waited longer in the offseason, there's no way to know, but I think it's common sense you could've gotten more

I think it's common sense you could not have gotten more. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing. Because no one here has any clue what KW was offered from other teams.

balke
06-11-2007, 10:53 AM
I don't get how going on the 15 day DL makes him a bust. He could still come back after the all-star break and be a great asset down the stretch for them.

We obviously didn't need Garcia, but if that Danks/Masset deal didn't go down, we'd be even worse than we are now.

UserNameBlank
06-11-2007, 11:03 AM
Still could've waited longer in the offseason, there's no way to know, but I think it's common sense you could've gotten more
Maybe he could have gotten more players, but I doubt he could have gotten a larger package containing any individual player better than Gio. If he could have, he probably would have made that trade, although by the sound of things at the time, KW still has high hopes for Gavin.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-11-2007, 02:25 PM
Garcia had a 94-96 mph fastball in Seattle and was all the way down to the mid-80s last season. Excuses for the drop ranged from the extra innings from the playoffs and World Series to the World Baseball Classic, but something was no doubt not right.

Given his arm problems, he would probably only be giving us 5-6 innings a game this year, only further exposing the bullpen.

Not to say he won't adjust again this year - like he did in adding the splitter last year, but this guy is clearly on the downside.

Chicken Dinner
06-11-2007, 02:36 PM
The primary problem is that sweaty Freddie eats all of Ozzies food when he's in FL.

anewman35
06-12-2007, 06:40 AM
http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070612&content_id=2020729&vkey=news_phi&fext=.jsp&c_id=phi

The Phillies right-hander had an MRI on his strained right shoulder on Monday that showed "pathology" in the labrum and fraying of the rotator cuff. He's seeking a second opinion, and a plan of care will be determined after that. If surgery is required, he could miss significant time, if not the rest of the season.

Fenway
06-13-2007, 08:49 AM
Surgery seems most likely option for Garcia (http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/20070613_Surgery_seems_most_likely_option_for_Garc ia.html)

Garcia will travel to Birmingham, Ala., today to get a second opinion from famed specialist James Andrews. Team physician Michael Ciccotti has diagnosed Garcia as having "pathology" around the labrum and some fraying of the rotator cuff.

Asked yesterday if Andrews' opinion matched that of Ciccotti would he opt to undergo surgery, Garcia replied, "Yeah. Probably."

Jaffar
06-13-2007, 09:04 AM
I have a feeling the White Sox knew more about Freddy then we did and Kenny took the best deal that was out there knowing Freddy was a few pitches from his arm falling off plus the fact that the Phillies made the deal WITHOUT it requiring a physical that Freddy would not have passed.

Hitmen77
06-13-2007, 09:57 AM
Wow, looks like this trade is a total bust for the Phillies. I guess the best they can hope for now out of this trade is that both Gio and Floyd turn out to be busts with the Sox.

So, is Phil Rogers still calling the Garcia and McCarthy trades "despicable"? It's not just Rogers - IIRC, alot of fans were griping that the Sox should have traded Vazquez and not Garcia. I'm not a huge fan of Javy, but at least he's healthy (and still tradable).

I wonder what happens for next year with Garcia? He's a free agent - does he just end up signing a 1-year, incentive-laden deal with a team during the offseason?

jabrch
06-13-2007, 11:16 AM
I have a feeling the White Sox knew more about Freddy then we did

That's nearly guaranteed. His relationship with Ozzie aside, the Sox know more about each one of these players than every fricking self-annointed baseball expert on WSI. Pull up the Sox Trade Garcia thread. Look at all the geniuses there who said it was a terrible move.

Kenny knows more about this game than anyone here. That doesn't mean everything he does will work out right - but I'm glad he's the GM of this club, and all of us are burning bandwidth on WSI.

Both the Garcia deal and the McCarthy deal were, at worst, good deals for us. The Garcia deal has the potential to be an historicly great deal.

jabrch
06-13-2007, 11:30 AM
Domeshot
I feel so used and let down. We got hosed. Well this is a terrible frickin trade

oeo

This sounds like a really dumb move...unless we're sending these guys elsewhere, which IMO, think is the case. I still think we could have gotten more in this market, what the hell?


santo=dorf
Really down on this trade at the moment....Garcia is extremely underrated around here posting similar numbers to "King" Jon Garland

juribe1989

Kenny has ****ing lost it. This trade is garbage and completely worthless. We get Gonzalez back for no reason? The Phillies didn't even like Gavin Floyd. Freddy got us 17 wins and a 4.5 ERA in one of his off years, and all we get is ****ing Gavin Floyd? What a joke. We don't even get Rowand. This is a damn joke. Way to go Kenny! Fantastic offseason includes Aardsma and GEE WIZ Gavin Floyd!

Well, I just lost all respect for Kenny. Thanks for '05 you former great GM.



That's just the first few pages.

Kenny knows what he's talking about and knows what he is doing. We talk about what we know very little of. There's a big difference.

champagne030
06-13-2007, 01:34 PM
Both the Garcia deal and the McCarthy deal were, at worst, good deals for us. The Garcia deal has the potential to be an historicly great deal.

Sure, if Gio turns into Johan it's historical. Or it's possible that there was a better offer on the table for Garcia and KW turned it down because he incorrectly thought Gavin was a pitcher.

Randar68
06-13-2007, 02:19 PM
Exactly. After '07, Freddy would have been gone anyway. The way things are going for him, we're better off with Gio and Floyd. I think Gio is going to be a very good pitcher for the Sox - maybe as soon as next year.

Well, if our bullpen keeps pitching like this, Gio could be our set-up man by September. Wouldn't mind seeing him up in a bullpen role for the 2nd half of the season if they have a plan to use him in 2-3 inning stints on a semi-regular basis.

spiffie
06-13-2007, 02:23 PM
Sure, if Gio turns into Johan it's historical. Or it's possible that there was a better offer on the table for Garcia and KW turned it down because he incorrectly thought Gavin was a pitcher.
And do you have anything at all other than your own speculation to believe there was anything better available for a pitcher with a major velocity drop going into the last year of his contract?

jabrch
06-13-2007, 02:38 PM
And do you have anything at all other than your own speculation to believe there was anything better available for a pitcher with a major velocity drop going into the last year of his contract?

No he does not. He's got nothing at all to support that mindless drivel.

KW traded a guy who had lost velocity, was making 10mm, was going to be a FA, and whom wasn't going to have to take a physical for two pretty decent looking pitching prospects.

jabrch
06-13-2007, 02:39 PM
Well, if our bullpen keeps pitching like this, Gio could be our set-up man by September. Wouldn't mind seeing him up in a bullpen role for the 2nd half of the season if they have a plan to use him in 2-3 inning stints on a semi-regular basis.

That's a good idea. Bring him along slowly.

champagne030
06-13-2007, 03:48 PM
And do you have anything at all other than your own speculation to believe there was anything better available for a pitcher with a major velocity drop going into the last year of his contract?

No, other than the fact of what other players brought in return last season and KW's admitted infatuation with Floyd.

Jason Jennings, entering his last season before being a free agent brought Jason Hirsh, Wily Taveras and Taylor Buchholz. I'd rather have Hirsh, but we can call him and Gio even. Taveras and buchholz>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Floyd (and that includes the $4.5M less that Jennings makes this season). Maybe that deal was shot down, maybe KW loved Gavin so much he didn't even look for another deal. The point is KW was very high on Floyd, said they did extensive scouting on him and he's a bust and has been for a few years.

No he does not. He's got nothing at all to support that mindless drivel.

KW traded a guy who had lost velocity, was making 10mm, was going to be a FA, and whom wasn't going to have to take a physical for two pretty decent looking pitching prospects.

The same guy who had that diminished velocity last season produced a 17-9 record with a 4.54 ERA and 216 IP in the American League.

One pretty decent looking pitching prospect and one who isn't in return.

Please continue with your mindless drivel that KW's **** doesn't stink.

santo=dorf
06-13-2007, 04:45 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070612soxbrite,1,5705406.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Garcia says these injuries occurred in 2007.

The only positive out of the Garcia trade was the payroll opening allowed. Of course the money spent in the offseason went to extensions to Vazquez, MacDougal, and Thornton, pointlessly signing Pods, and Erstad. Garcia may turn out to be fool's gold, but he was still worth more than what the Sox received. This was reported by Jayson Stark and Ken Rosenthal (who was on top of EVERYTHING this offseason) quoting major league executives.

How come Gio is such a big deal now, but not when we traded him? KW said no starters would be traded unless the major league team benefited for 2007. He then said Gavin Floyd would compete with McCarthy for the 5th starter's spot. Then McCarthy was moved. It is obvious that the 2007 contribution to the major league team from trading one of our starters was going to be Floyd.

If in August of 2000 despite it being worth $90, you sold your Enron stock at $50 because you knew it was going to fall apart and then you took that $50 and invested it in some pyramid scheme, it wouldn't make sense to come out after the company flopped and say "HAHA!!! I knew it was going down!!!"

You could've received more than what you sold it for (Garcia,) and you wasted whatever money you got from it on crap (just about all the other offseason moves.)

Another thing, if one move determines how KW "knows what he is doing," what does it say when there are many more moves that say otherwise?
Do the;
Vazquez extension (not looking good)
MacDougal extension (I think it'll work out, but he is in AAA)
Gload Trade (still have to give it to the Sox even if Sisco was bad and in the minors)
Thornton extension (who knows?)
Pods Signing (predictable)
Erstad signing (predictable, and not good)
Not trading Crede (Sox knew he was injured, yet didn't trade him. Apparently that's the opposite of the Garcia trade except the Sox got burned.)

get completely washed out because we got a nothing prospect and a former White Sox prospect who wasn't a big deal when we traded him, but now is such a stud while playing in AA after a mediocre season in the AA level the previous season?

I don't think so.

I'm a fan of KW, have defended him throughout 2003 to the beginning of 2005, but he screwed up this offseason.

spiffie
06-13-2007, 04:54 PM
No, other than the fact of what other players brought in return last season and KW's admitted infatuation with Floyd.

Jason Jennings, entering his last season before being a free agent brought Jason Hirsh, Wily Taveras and Taylor Buchholz. I'd rather have Hirsh, but we can call him and Gio even. Taveras and buchholz>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Floyd (and that includes the $4.5M less that Jennings makes this season). Maybe that deal was shot down, maybe KW loved Gavin so much he didn't even look for another deal. The point is KW was very high on Floyd, said they did extensive scouting on him and he's a bust and has been for a few years.



The same guy who had that diminished velocity last season produced a 17-9 record with a 4.54 ERA and 216 IP in the American League.

One pretty decent looking pitching prospect and one who isn't in return.

Please continue with your mindless drivel that KW's **** doesn't stink.
You fail to point out in the midst of your desperate desire to trash anything that Williams has done (when there seem to be plenty of much easier targets) that Jennings was also 28 years old going into this year, as opposed to Freddy who turns 32 this year.

A 28 year old who costs 5 million a year who has never missed a start due to arm injury is not comprable to a 31 year old pitcher with something very obviously not right with him. That is borne out by the fact that the same package Jennings went for was supposedly offered to the Sox for Garland. Note that no one ever implied for a second in there that Garcia could have fetched that from the Astros.

Beyond that deal, who else out there does it appear that Williams passed up on in his mania to get Gavin Floyd?

champagne030
06-13-2007, 06:55 PM
You fail to point out in the midst of your desperate desire to trash anything that Williams has done (when there seem to be plenty of much easier targets) that Jennings was also 28 years old going into this year, as opposed to Freddy who turns 32 this year.

A 28 year old who costs 5 million a year who has never missed a start due to arm injury is not comprable to a 31 year old pitcher with something very obviously not right with him. That is borne out by the fact that the same package Jennings went for was supposedly offered to the Sox for Garland. Note that no one ever implied for a second in there that Garcia could have fetched that from the Astros.

Beyond that deal, who else out there does it appear that Williams passed up on in his mania to get Gavin Floyd?

There was not "obviously" something wrong with Garcia. He experienced a drop in velocity, but appeared to compensate by coming up with a split-fingered fastball. I would understand the age question if it lasted for multiple years. 32 isn't an age when pitchers suddenly breakdown vs. someone 28. They're both FA's after this season. They probably do not get both Tavarez and Buchholz, but either one is a major upgrade over Floyd.

As far as passing up other deals, I don't know who, if anyone, KW talked trades. Maybe the Mets would've given up a better prospect than Gio. Maybe the Dodgers give up a better package. Kenny has been trying to get Floyd for years. Luckily, he was shot down on a Garland for Floyd trade after 2004 (as was reported on ESPN and rumored to be going down in the Chicago papers). I feel he was blinded in his pursuit of this guy and didn't look at other options or turned them down. Maybe I'm wrong, but when KW likes a guy he usually gets him one way or another. See the Alomar's, Dino, GrindErstad, ect.

champagne030
06-13-2007, 07:08 PM
You fail to point out in the midst of your desperate desire to trash anything that Williams has done (when there seem to be plenty of much easier targets)

BTW - I know there's plenty of targets this season. Off the top of my head, I'd say KW and the players share 40% each and the coaching staff 20%.

Konerko, Iguchi, Dye, MacDougal are all on the players. They have seriously underperformed. They all get f's to this point.

Aardsma, Masset, Sisco, Uribe, Pods and GrindErstad all fall on Kenny. They haven't underperformed. They're performing as expected or are injured as expected.

I really do not know how Walker has his job. It's the same **** every year - except 2005. Dead pull hitters who swing for the fences. We haven't been able to lay down a simple sacrifice bunt with any regularity in years. Someone's head needs to role for that alone. It's inexcusable. Ozzie's micromanaging of the bullpen is poor at best. His insistence on demanding production from rookies, but letting MackOwack, Uribe and Cintron produce zip gets a free pass is also inexcusable.

Tragg
06-13-2007, 07:55 PM
His insistence on demanding production from rookies, but letting MackOwack, Uribe and Cintron produce zip gets a free pass is also inexcusable.

That is the trait I can't understand.
And I think it applies to hitters much moreso than pitchers; he seems to have a lot more patience with young pitchers but absolutely zero with young hitters. And what this team needs is quality young hitters - and they have to be developed to know whether you have quality.

FarWestChicago
06-13-2007, 08:19 PM
I'm a fan of KW, have defended him throughout 2003 to the beginning of 2005...Prove it.

santo=dorf
06-13-2007, 09:03 PM
Prove it.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=663377&postcount=35
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=561611&postcount=9
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=561615&postcount=12
You KW bashers are so one sided. When the team doesn't live up to expectations, you blame the GM, not the underachieving players or inexperienced managers. When the team accompishes something, you credit the GM first, no credit what so ever to any of the players on those teams or the managers. :booty:

What was the rank of the Sox payroll in the early-90's?
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=486483&postcount=161

Just to name a few. To make it easier, just look up a comment made about KW or thread started by habiharu, JRIG, gosox41, Wealz, and/or DaDawg_77

FarWestChicago
06-13-2007, 09:11 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=663377&postcount=35
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=561611&postcount=9
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=561615&postcount=12

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=486483&postcount=161

Just to name a few. To make it easier, just look up a comment made about KW or thread started by habiharu, JRIG, gosox41, Wealz, and/or DaDawg_77Thank you. I thought you used to be a reasonable poster. But, I was beginning to wonder if my memories were false. Maybe you'll go in cycles and become a kinder, gentler, humbler dorf again some day. :praying:

balke
06-14-2007, 09:27 AM
I think KW did exactly what was needed, but it didn't work. Beef up the bullpen was the plan. Imagine how much better we'd look with a bullpen. The hitting would be better if Pods were healthy. How's Kenny responsible for Dye and Konerko sucking this season? Dye was a playoff berth away from MVP last season.

DrCrawdad
06-14-2007, 10:03 AM
There was not "obviously" something wrong with Garcia. He experienced a drop in velocity, but appeared to compensate by coming up with a split-fingered fastball. I would understand the age question if it lasted for multiple years. 32 isn't an age when pitchers suddenly breakdown vs. someone 28.

I can't understand how anyone could have watched Garcia last season and NOT thought he was hurting. Garcia was laboring, struggling to throw hard.

So, how did he put up the numbers that he did in '06? Garcia is a smart pitcher. He parlayed his smarts and savvy into success. But if anyone is surprised that he's hurt they were not watching last year.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/tom_verducci/09/21/whitesox.indians/t1_garcia.jpg


Thanks Freddy for your great contributions to the '05 World Championship.

Foulke You
06-20-2007, 12:47 PM
I can't understand how anyone could have watched Garcia last season and NOT thought he was hurting. Garcia was laboring, struggling to throw hard.

So, how did he put up the numbers that he did in '06? Garcia is a smart pitcher. He parlayed his smarts and savvy into success. But if anyone is surprised that he's hurt they were not watching last year.

Freddy has a violent 3/4 arm slinging delivery that has to be tough on the shoulder. When we got Freddy in '04 he was throwing 93-94 on his fastball but last year was basically a junkballer who could only hit 89-90 on his fastball. He still was effective because he was such a smart pitcher but he wasn't the Freddy that won us the World Series. Freddy was one of my favorites and I was upset when we traded him but I guess it's better that he is on Philly's DL and not ours. Lord knows, our DL has too many guys on it already.:(: