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JohnTucker0814
06-08-2007, 08:20 AM
I'm not up for us giving away all of our free agent talent. I don't have a lot of hope for the season with the way we are playing along with the way Detroit and Cleveland are playing. However, if we hold on to Dye, Buehrle, Iguchi, etc we are showing that we are still trying to win. If those guys walk at the end of the year, whoever signs them as free agents, we will get their #1 draft pick in '08. I would think that Iguchi and Dye would end the season as at least a top 10 at their respective positions and Buehrle has a chance too. Unless we can get 1st round talent back in a trade, I say keep those guys, try to win this year and if they walk we get compensated with a #1 draft pick next year.

UserNameBlank
06-08-2007, 08:50 AM
It all depends on what we could get for certain players. If someone offers up a top prospect that we want, especially one pretty close to the majors, then we should make the move. Unless it's Buehrle and the Sox think they can re-sign him. If other teams are just going to offer up mostly low-ceiling guys and projects then we should take the picks. For players like Cintron, Mackowiak, Erstad, etc. they should be traded for whatever we can get, hopefully a project worth working on or something, since we won't get any compensation.

The big question IMO is this: if the Sox have a firesale, how will we fill a roster? Not even Charlotte has depth. Maybe we can start an infield of Fields-Gonzalez-Getz-Konerko, have AJ behind the plate, and go with an OF of Owens-Anderson-Sweeney. That would be terrific. Our bench: C Gustavo Molina, 1B/LF Craig Wilson, OF Luis Terrero, 3B/SS Tomas Perez.

Steelrod
06-08-2007, 09:45 AM
I don't like our chances even with these guys. Maybe the time has come to retool for the future. The Nationals held on to Soriano and look what it got them!
You have to be realistic about your chances and your future.
This team is getting old!

SBSoxFan
06-08-2007, 09:56 AM
It all depends on what we could get for certain players. If someone offers up a top prospect that we want, especially one pretty close to the majors, then we should make the move. Unless it's Buehrle and the Sox think they can re-sign him. If other teams are just going to offer up mostly low-ceiling guys and projects then we should take the picks. For players like Cintron, Mackowiak, Erstad, etc. they should be traded for whatever we can get, hopefully a project worth working on or something, since we won't get any compensation.

The big question IMO is this: if the Sox have a firesale, how will we fill a roster? Not even Charlotte has depth. Maybe we can start an infield of Fields-Gonzalez-Getz-Konerko, have AJ behind the plate, and go with an OF of Owens-Anderson-Sweeney. That would be terrific. Our bench: C Gustavo Molina, 1B/LF Craig Wilson, OF Luis Terrero, 3B/SS Tomas Perez.

Are you suggesting they also trade Toby Hall and have Molina as the backup C?

soxfan13
06-08-2007, 10:00 AM
I'm not up for us giving away all of our free agent talent. I don't have a lot of hope for the season with the way we are playing along with the way Detroit and Cleveland are playing. However, if we hold on to Dye, Buehrle, Iguchi, etc we are showing that we are still trying to win. If those guys walk at the end of the year, whoever signs them as free agents, we will get their #1 draft pick in '08. I would think that Iguchi and Dye would end the season as at least a top 10 at their respective positions and Buehrle has a chance too. Unless we can get 1st round talent back in a trade, I say keep those guys, try to win this year and if they walk we get compensated with a #1 draft pick next year.

Unless you are guaranteed ready to play in the big league players with those picks I would rather trade them for players that can help now.

infohawk
06-08-2007, 10:04 AM
I don't like our chances even with these guys. Maybe the time has come to retool for the future. The Nationals held on to Soriano and look what it got them!
You have to be realistic about your chances and your future.
This team is getting old!
Unfortunately, I agree. I think you have to try and move at least two of three from a group that includes Dye, Crede and one starting pitcher. I would move the first two, although at this point Crede might have to be moved during the offseason because of his back issues. In fact, he may be tough to move at all depending on whether or not he needs back surgery. The bottom line is this -- the Sox need to get some young talent for guys they are going to lose and/or are getting older. Shedding some of the big salaries will also allow KW to be pretty aggressive on the free agent market this winter. I'll add that I would even consider moving Buerhle, but the package in return would have to be absolutely amazing. Otherwise, I want him back.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-08-2007, 10:15 AM
The big question IMO is this: if the Sox have a firesale, how will we fill a roster? Not even Charlotte has depth. Maybe we can start an infield of Fields-Gonzalez-Getz-Konerko, have AJ behind the plate, and go with an OF of Owens-Anderson-Sweeney. That would be terrific. Our bench: C Gustavo Molina, 1B/LF Craig Wilson, OF Luis Terrero, 3B/SS Tomas Perez.

That group can't lose any more than the current lineup, and there would be no expectation for that group to win.

Also, you would have to expect that you are going to get some half-way major league-ready talent in return for the guys you trade. Plug a couple of them in there, and it might be a team with some life: infield hits, bunts, stolen bases, hustle, and defense.

Malgar 12
06-08-2007, 10:19 AM
That group can't lose any more than the current lineup, and there would be no expectation for that group to win.

Also, you would have to expect that you are going to get some half-way major league-ready talent in return for the guys you trade. Plug a couple of them in there, and it might be a team with some life: infield hits, bunts, stolen bases, hustle, and defense.

ahhh... the 1990 Sox...now that was a fun team to watch. Hard to believe it was 17 years ago already.

roadrunner
06-08-2007, 10:24 AM
ahhh... the 1990 Sox...now that was a fun team to watch. Hard to believe it was 17 years ago already.

too bad KW traded away Chris B Young - he could've played the role of a young sammy sosa

UserNameBlank
06-08-2007, 11:29 AM
Are you suggesting they also trade Toby Hall and have Molina as the backup C?
No, but Toby should have his surgery. The team is going nowhere so his bat isn't going to help and he hardly ever plays as it is. I like Toby as he brings us some stability through 2009, but right now he should be just concerned with getting healthy again. In that event Gustavo would probably be the only choice unless a roster spot was used on Wiki. I doubt anyone is going to rush Lucy.

UserNameBlank
06-08-2007, 11:42 AM
That group can't lose any more than the current lineup, and there would be no expectation for that group to win.

Also, you would have to expect that you are going to get some half-way major league-ready talent in return for the guys you trade. Plug a couple of them in there, and it might be a team with some life: infield hits, bunts, stolen bases, hustle, and defense.
I would be cool to see if some of these young guys could kind of pick each other up a little bit more than this current group. It seems like every time something goes wrong in one area, the opposing side, be it offense or defense, doesn't do anything to make up for it.

It would also much rather watch a bad team with low expectations full of a bunch of young guys getting better than a veteran team with high expectations getting worse and declining. At least the youth brings hope for the future.

INSox56
06-08-2007, 11:46 AM
Hate to say it, but I'm all for it. Outside of pitching, we're pretty much a desert in prospects outside of 3B and a couple iffy outfielders. The very bad thing is the one spot where we really have the most flexibility is at third. It's just too bad that Crede's trade value is in the toilet right now. But it also comes down to what others have said....what do we get in return. I think we have very few untouchables on this team right now, it just depends on what we get back.

soxtalker
06-08-2007, 12:03 PM
It may not be so much a question of what we want to give up as what other teams want to take. There's been a lot of discussion on WSI and among the fans here in Chicago that Buerhle, Dye, and Crede (before the injury revelations this week) were our trading chips. But teams haven't been giving up much at the trading deadline the past few years. I suspect that if we want real prospects, we may have to give up more -- maybe our other three veteran starting pitchers or Jenks.

KenBerryGrab
06-08-2007, 12:03 PM
the only guy with real trade value right now is Buehrle, and even that is not what it might have been. They're better off holding.

roadrunner
06-08-2007, 12:16 PM
It would also much rather watch a bad team with low expectations full of a bunch of young guys getting better than a veteran team with high expectations getting worse and declining. At least the youth brings hope for the future.

I'm with you there. In the suntimes today Reinsdorf was quoted referencing the 78 Yankees and 51 Dodgers presumably in some lame attempt to sell hope. Does he realize it's now 2007?

I found his logic interesting when later in the article (when asked about ARod) he brought up the fact that the team with the highest paid player hasn't won it all since 86 when the Mets had Gary Carter.

UserNameBlank
06-08-2007, 12:45 PM
I found his logic interesting when later in the article (when asked about ARod) he brought up the fact that the team with the highest paid player hasn't won it all since 86 when the Mets had Gary Carter.
Hmm.

I guess records are made to be broken but not ignored. Poor allocation of resources = less team balance and weaker "weakest links." With the exception of the Tigers WS gift to the Cards last year, the most balanced teams with the best pitching have won the last few WS titles.

Lip Man 1
06-08-2007, 01:11 PM
Folks:

When discussing this issue, like it or not, one other factor has to be considered if you make a series of deals that could be considered a fire sale. (as opposed to White Flagging it...) What does that do to the fan base and how do they react to it.

The last time something like this happened the after effects were felt for years, both in the stands and through the media.

The Sox have to weight in those factors as well when making any decisions. The risk of course, is that a 'rebuilding' effort could result in a dramatic drop in attendence for years, especially if the new pieces, be they kids or vets fail.

Lip

Scottiehaswheels
06-08-2007, 01:13 PM
Folks:

When discussing this issue, like it or not, one other factor has to be considered if you make a series of deals that could be considered a fire sale. (as opposed to White Flagging it...) What does that do to the fan base and how do they react to it.

The last time something like this happened the after effects were felt for years, both in the stands and through the media.

The Sox have to weight in those factors as well when making any decisions. The risk of course, is that a 'rebuilding' effort could result in a dramatic drop in attendence for years, especially if the new pieces, be they kids or vets fail.

LipWith the ticketexchange they have a lot of current season ticket holders pretty much locked into the following season's tickets.

Lip Man 1
06-08-2007, 01:34 PM
Scottie:

Correct... that's why I said "for years"

The drop in what the Sox drew after the July 1997 deals were being felt through the 2000 and 2001 seasons.

Lip

soxtalker
06-08-2007, 01:37 PM
Folks:

When discussing this issue, like it or not, one other factor has to be considered if you make a series of deals that could be considered a fire sale. (as opposed to White Flagging it...) What does that do to the fan base and how do they react to it.

The last time something like this happened the after effects were felt for years, both in the stands and through the media.

The Sox have to weight in those factors as well when making any decisions. The risk of course, is that a 'rebuilding' effort could result in a dramatic drop in attendence for years, especially if the new pieces, be they kids or vets fail.

Lip

Well, it is probably a factor that KW will have to take into account. Here's a recent Rosenthal article (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6900382) dealing with the possibility of the Giants rebuilding. The Giants owner clearly was taking this sort of issue into consideration.

Scottiehaswheels
06-08-2007, 01:39 PM
Scottie:

Correct... that's why I said "for years"

The drop in what the Sox drew after the July 1997 deals were being felt through the 2000 and 2001 seasons.

LipMark,
My take on the Ticket Exchange is that you basically become a ticketholder for life once you become one.... If you have say $2000 or so in your account you're obviously going to get tickets the following year as a single would only "cost" you another $800 for lower reserved... Following year you can still sell those tickets yet again and just keep carrying the balance forward year in year out... Not all of us can be like itsnotrequired and attend all 81 games..... Most of us are lucky to get to half that... The others? sold on ticketexchange beholden you to the team until you're willing to just walk away from your balance....

getonbckthr
06-08-2007, 02:07 PM
Deals to consider going after:
Dye and Contreras to Anaheim for Wood, Santana and a prospect or 2
Buerhle and Iguchi to Mets for Milledge, Heilman and prospect or 2.
As far fanbase real easy to keep it where its at next season signIchiro and when he opts ou sign Arod.

infohawk
06-08-2007, 02:09 PM
Folks:

When discussing this issue, like it or not, one other factor has to be considered if you make a series of deals that could be considered a fire sale. (as opposed to White Flagging it...) What does that do to the fan base and how do they react to it.

The last time something like this happened the after effects were felt for years, both in the stands and through the media.

The Sox have to weight in those factors as well when making any decisions. The risk of course, is that a 'rebuilding' effort could result in a dramatic drop in attendence for years, especially if the new pieces, be they kids or vets fail.

Lip
This is true, but much of the fan angst could be remedied if KW were to make a couple of significant free agent signings over the winter. That way the plan becomes one of getting young players for guys you were likely going to lose and using the savings to bring in some experienced players with desirable skills and track records. In other words, not really a multi-year rebuilding effort in the conventional sense.

Lip Man 1
06-08-2007, 02:14 PM
Info:

Your suggestion isn't bad but some other factors are going to be involved. Namely what will the size of the budget be and will the market make a 'correction.'

So far as I know the only person who feels the free agent market this off season will go 'down' is Kenny.

I haven't seen any other writer, media member or agent say this, not with players potentially on the market like Buehrle, Zambrano, Jones, Dye, Rodriguez and so forth.

Most think the market, particularly for pitchers, will remain as high as last year or go even higher.

Lip

JohnTucker0814
06-08-2007, 03:12 PM
Deals to consider going after:
Dye and Contreras to Anaheim for Wood, Santana and a prospect or 2
Buerhle and Iguchi to Mets for Milledge, Heilman and prospect or 2.
As far fanbase real easy to keep it where its at next season signIchiro and when he opts ou sign Arod.

As much as those trades look nice... Wood is a 3B not a SS, Santana has been terrible this year, Milledge is injured... I like getting rid of Dye, Contreras and Iguchi, but we NEED to keep Buehrle... overpay his butt, but we need to keep him!

roadrunner
06-08-2007, 03:22 PM
Mark,
My take on the Ticket Exchange is that you basically become a ticketholder for life once you become one.... If you have say $2000 or so in your account you're obviously going to get tickets the following year as a single would only "cost" you another $800 for lower reserved... Following year you can still sell those tickets yet again and just keep carrying the balance forward year in year out... Not all of us can be like itsnotrequired and attend all 81 games..... Most of us are lucky to get to half that... The others? sold on ticketexchange beholden you to the team until you're willing to just walk away from your balance....

I, for one, stopped using the ticket exchange this year for the reasons you state. I talked to at least two other people at the park this week that did the same thing and were not planning to renew for next year. Based on my admittedly small sample size, I think that the season ticket base will begin to dwindle starting next year. The Sox have become the type of team that is unwatchable in any sport: old, slow, overpriced, past-their-prime veterans that don't appear to be hustling or having any fun playing the game.

WhiffleBall
06-08-2007, 04:09 PM
The artificially bloated post World Series season ticket holder base was bound to decline after a few losing seasons. It's just that no one, especially KW and JR, thought it could be this soon after a WS victory.

Due to various factors (mostly due to not fielding a consistent playoff team IMHO) the White Sox cannot sustain a permanent large season ticket base. It spiked when they opened the new ball park, then went down, then spiked the year they hosted the all star game, then went down, and then spiked sky high after they won the World Series. We had partial season tickets in 2005 and I remember getting a call from our ticket rep in July of 2005 offering pro-rated full season tickets in the 3rd row in section 117!!!! Obviously I still regret not taking them up on that offer but at the time Sox tickets were still very easy to come by.

I have heard that the season ticket holder number is around 20K. I would predict that it will go down by at least 25% next year (if not more) if they continue playing like they have been for the past month. If they go into full rebuilding mode then it could go down to 10K, that is almost a million less fans. That kind of problem has got to be causing some problems for Sox management.

I see them making an exception and resigning Buerlhe to a 4-5 year deal and also resigning Iguchi with a free agent SS and at least one outfielder, one of which may be a major name player. A big name like Ichiro or ARod would go a long way towards keeping a lot of fence sitting season ticket holders from cancelling.

The Sox could also get creative and make season tickets more attractive by lowering the price and throwing in more perks. On the flip side a lot of the newer season ticket holders who cancel will still want to go to games so the Ozzie plan and 27 game plans may see a bump up in numbers.