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RCWHITESOX
06-07-2007, 02:31 PM
Right after the Sox won the World Series we all heard Williams saying this was hopefully the first of more to come. He pledged to keep the team competitive and improved as long as the fans would support the team. Well the fans have definitely done there part; so when is Williams going to do his part. We have a team in disarray with free agents not resigned. He stocked his bullpen with retreads from Kansas City and the Cubs and we wonder what went wrong . Now he has called up more bullpen help in the large part more retreads. I think it's about time he realizes he needs some outside help before it's to late. I for one feel the span of 1959 to 2005 is to long to wait to reach the World Series again. If you want to operate as a major market then do so. And please stop talking about the ever present rebuilding program. God knows we saw what happened when management felt it was more responsible for the Bulls success than the players themselves. If we keep going the way were headed now look out Kansas City.

soxfan13
06-07-2007, 02:36 PM
Right after the Sox won the World Series we all heard Williams saying this was hopefully the first of more to come. He pledged to keep the team competitive and improved as long as the fans would support the team. Well the fans have definitely done there part; so when is Williams going to do his part. We have a team in disarray with free agents not resigned. He stocked his bullpen with retreads from Kansas City and the Cubs and we wonder what went wrong . Now he has called up more bullpen help in the large part more retreads. I think it's about time he realizes he needs some outside help before it's to late. I for one feel the span of 1959 to 2005 is to long to wait to reach the World Series again. If you want to operate as a major market then do so. And please stop talking about the ever present rebuilding program. God knows we saw what happened when management felt it was more responsible for the Bulls success than the players themselves. If we keep going the way were headed now look out Kansas City.

Top 5 or 6 in payroll is really acting like a tiny market.

CLR01
06-07-2007, 02:37 PM
Right...the Sox are headed towards being the worst team in baseball year in and year out because they won't give their aging FA ridiculous contracts. :rolleyes:

Madvora
06-07-2007, 02:38 PM
Williams didn't field a team of minor leaguers this year. This team was built to win and should be winning. We have plenty of talent.
Injuries have hurt us, but not enough to make us this bad.

You can't really blame KW because other teams are not ready to start trading until you're well into July. There's no trading partners out there yet. If he sits still until August, then we have a right to start complaining (about him.)

soxfan13
06-07-2007, 02:39 PM
Right...the Sox are headed towards being the worst team in baseball year in and year out. :rolleyes:

The Sox will be the highest paid worse team in baseball.Oh wait, thats the Yankees......Right now:tongue:

SoxFan78
06-07-2007, 02:42 PM
Right after the Sox won the World Series we all heard Williams saying this was hopefully the first of more to come. He pledged to keep the team competitive and improved as long as the fans would support the team. Well the fans have definitely done there part; so when is Williams going to do his part. We have a team in disarray with free agents not resigned. He stocked his bullpen with retreads from Kansas City and the Cubs and we wonder what went wrong . Now he has called up more bullpen help in the large part more retreads. I think it's about time he realizes he needs some outside help before it's to late. I for one feel the span of 1959 to 2005 is to long to wait to reach the World Series again. If you want to operate as a major market then do so. And please stop talking about the ever present rebuilding program. God knows we saw what happened when management felt it was more responsible for the Bulls success than the players themselves. If we keep going the way were headed now look out Kansas City.

If they need outside help, who should they get? Who would they give up? Its not like KW can just pick any team and take their best player. Teams know the Sox are struggling and wont give up their best player for peanuts.

soxtalker
06-07-2007, 03:07 PM
If they need outside help, who should they get? Who would they give up? Its not like KW can just pick any team and take their best player. Teams know the Sox are struggling and wont give up their best player for peanuts.

I agree. I just don't think it is all that easy. KW took some gambles -- as virtually every team must -- and they haven't worked out.

Injury is always a possibility -- especially with older players. We got half a year of Pods in 2005 before an injury slowed him down. It was enough to get us through the WS, but that 2nd half was scary.

On relief pitching, maybe he went after the wrong type of player, but hard-throwing pitchers sure sounded good, when you're playing in a small park.

DumpJerry
06-07-2007, 03:24 PM
Right after the Sox won the World Series we all heard Williams saying this was hopefully the first of more to come. He pledged to keep the team competitive and improved as long as the fans would support the team. Well the fans have definitely done there part; so when is Williams going to do his part. We have a team in disarray with free agents not resigned. He stocked his bullpen with retreads from Kansas City and the Cubs and we wonder what went wrong . Now he has called up more bullpen help in the large part more retreads. I think it's about time he realizes he needs some outside help before it's to late. I for one feel the span of 1959 to 2005 is to long to wait to reach the World Series again. If you want to operate as a major market then do so. And please stop talking about the ever present rebuilding program. God knows we saw what happened when management felt it was more responsible for the Bulls success than the players themselves. If we keep going the way were headed now look out Kansas City.
I'm in agreement with you. I thought it was downright dirty play of Kenny to pull Podsednik's muscle, sprain Erstad's ankle, pull Thome's rib cage muscle, throw out Crede's back, break Ozuna's leg, cause the family members of Cintron and Uribe to pass away or have serious health issues, and tear Toby Hall's Labrum among other actions which have seemingly made his words in 2005 seem hollow.

How dare he! :angry:

Then there is the refusal of other teams to strengthen the White Sox last year by trading us their best players for our over-the-hill players. Why won't they cooperate????:angry: :angry: :angry:

Lip Man 1
06-07-2007, 03:40 PM
My only comment is that the size of the payroll is important towards winning and I'm very happy the Sox have increased things the past few years but as others have stated it's also the DISTRIBUTION of said payroll.

In my opinion the bullpen and some outfield depth has been shortchanged because a number of players in other positions are taking up a large portion of it.

I can't say if the Sox could have or should have raised the stakes, but we can see the results, especially in the bullpen for the past two years. For whatever reason or reasons Kenny decided to take this approach and it hasn't worked.

Fine, it happens.

I hope he 'corrects' things this off-season.

Lip

veeter
06-07-2007, 03:44 PM
This is just one of those years. Man, from '01-'04 we looked light years away from winning anything, at times. Then, poof, championship in 2005. I still have faith this season.

RCWHITESOX
06-07-2007, 03:49 PM
I'm in agreement with you. I thought it was downright dirty play of Kenny to pull Podsednik's muscle, sprain Erstad's ankle, pull Thome's rib cage muscle, throw out Crede's back, break Ozuna's leg, cause the family members of Cintron and Uribe to pass away or have serious health issues, and tear Toby Hall's Labrum among other actions which have seemingly made his words in 2005 seem hollow.

How dare he! :angry:

Then there is the refusal of other teams to strengthen the White Sox last year by trading us their best players for our over-the-hill players. Why won't they cooperate????:angry: :angry: :angry:

I hear what your saying but Podsednik was a risk due to prior injuries Erstad the same and the Sox were lucky That Thome was injury free last year. He also new that Crede decided against off season surgery. That being said I say he took the least expensive route with the bullpen and improving the team in general. As for our overall payroll you can be sure to see that drop with are young players coming up and are free agents leaving. Again I'll stick with saying the fan support was all the Sox asked for and I for one fell waiting over 40 years to get in the World Series is to long to wait . Our years of success 1959 1983 2005

FielderJones
06-07-2007, 04:11 PM
Our years of success 1959 1983 2005

We had as much success in 1993 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1993/Y_1993.htm) and 2000 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2000/Y_2000.htm) as we did in 1983 (win a division, miss the World Series).

jabrch
06-07-2007, 04:21 PM
I wish some of our "fans" wanted to hold our star players as accountable as our manager, front office, coaches and role players.

We have a lot of money tied into PK, JD and Crede and we are getting very little from them, yet people want to blame OG, KW, the pen, the bench, etc. rather than blame Paul Konerko.

JB98
06-07-2007, 05:05 PM
I wish some of our "fans" wanted to hold our star players as accountable as our manager, front office, coaches and role players.

We have a lot of money tied into PK, JD and Crede and we are getting very little from them, yet people want to blame OG, KW, the pen, the bench, etc. rather than blame Paul Konerko.

I thought everything was Rob Mackowiak's fault. His defense is costing us games.:angry:

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-07-2007, 05:36 PM
Right...the Sox are headed towards being the worst team in baseball year in and year out because they won't give their aging FA ridiculous contracts. :rolleyes:
Losing Crede (.216 AVG), Dye (.224 AVG), and Iguchi (.249 AVG) will really hurt. :rolleyes:

Frontman
06-07-2007, 05:40 PM
Plus it was KW who put that ridge into the baseline between first and second to hurt Ozuna.

Yep, KW definately is trying to make the team fail. I mean, didn't you see him in the dugout in Toronto with a pellet gun, aiming at Erstad's leg?

And he was the one who pulled Pod's gro.......


http://www.niu.edu/pubaffairs/nnow/summer02/images/krusty.jpg

"HEY HEY!!!"

oeo
06-07-2007, 05:41 PM
My only comment is that the size of the payroll is important towards winning and I'm very happy the Sox have increased things the past few years but as others have stated it's also the DISTRIBUTION of said payroll.

In my opinion the bullpen and some outfield depth has been shortchanged because a number of players in other positions are taking up a large portion of it.

I can't say if the Sox could have or should have raised the stakes, but we can see the results, especially in the bullpen for the past two years. For whatever reason or reasons Kenny decided to take this approach and it hasn't worked.

Fine, it happens.

I hope he 'corrects' things this off-season.

Lip

If we spent more money on the bullpen, then other parts of our team would suffer. Who in the rotation would you have liked to see gone because that's likely where the money would come from...and we probably would have inserted Gavin Floyd to replace him. Then we have a big hole in the 5th starter spot again; and before the season, it would look like two holes having Danks and Floyd in the rotation. Or maybe it's Dye that would go...then we have no production in the outfield.

If we had some guys that could come in this year, maybe we could have spent money on the bullpen (I'm still against that, though). I don't disagree with what Kenny tried to do...it hasn't worked to this point, but our rotation is pretty solid overall, and if our bats ever wake up, that will be solid as well.

Last year's free agent class sucked; I'm glad Kenny didn't tie himself up with those outfielders or relievers.

Brian26
06-07-2007, 06:04 PM
Well the fans have definitely done there part; so when is Williams going to do his part. We have a team in disarray with free agents not resigned. ...... If we keep going the way were headed now look out Kansas City.

Quite frankly, with the way Iguchi and Dye have been playing all year, I'm glad they aren't signed past 2007. Kenny Williams looks like a genius in that regard right now. Would you feel more comfortable if Williams signed Dye tomorrow to a 5-year, 60-million dollar contract? Then, not only would we be stuck with his .220 average and declining skills for the rest of '07, we'd be handcuffed with him until the end of 2012, without the financial leverage to bring anybody else on board to take his place. Same thing with Iguchi, who's looked lost at the plate and on the field for most of the season.

I don't see how having unsigned free agents at this point is an issue. If anything, it's an advantage. If we lose Dye and Iguchi, Kenny will go out and get someone to replace them. Let him do his job and quit the belly-aching.

Frater Perdurabo
06-08-2007, 12:10 AM
In my opinion the bullpen and some outfield depth has been shortchanged because a number of players in other positions are taking up a large portion of it.

I hate to say "I told you so" (and I don't mean you specifically, Lip), but I remember arguing that locking up Konerko to his contract eventually would be an unwise investment because it would tie up too much of the payroll in a one-tool first-baseman. I said at the time that the money would be better spent on locking up Buehrle long-term. I hate that I'm being proven right.

After 2005, I argued the Sox should have traded for Thome, let PK go, re-signed Thomas (have Thome and Thomas split DH/1B duties, with Gload getting some starts at 1B too), used Dye and Gload as the insurance policies at first base in case both Thome and Thomas went down (which as we saw did not happen in 2006), and use the savings to extend Buehrle, sign another CF to back up Anderson, and get bullpen help. That would have left the Sox in a much more flexible, but equally strong, position in 2006 and in better shape for 2007-2011.

Nellie_Fox
06-08-2007, 01:22 AM
I hear what your saying but Podsednik was a risk due to prior injuries Erstad the same and the Sox were lucky That Thome was injury free last year. He also new that Crede decided against off season surgery. That being said I say he took the least expensive route with the bullpen and improving the team in general. As for our overall payroll you can be sure to see that drop with are young players coming up and are free agents leaving. Again I'll stick with saying the fan support was all the Sox asked for and I for one fell waiting over 40 years to get in the World Series is to long to wait . Our years of success 1959 1983 2005:?:

oeo
06-08-2007, 01:28 AM
I hate to say "I told you so" (and I don't mean you specifically, Lip), but I remember arguing that locking up Konerko to his contract eventually would be an unwise investment because it would tie up too much of the payroll in a one-tool first-baseman. I said at the time that the money would be better spent on locking up Buehrle long-term. I hate that I'm being proven right.

After 2005, I argued the Sox should have traded for Thome, let PK go, re-signed Thomas (have Thome and Thomas split DH/1B duties, with Gload getting some starts at 1B too), used Dye and Gload as the insurance policies at first base in case both Thome and Thomas went down (which as we saw did not happen in 2006), and use the savings to extend Buehrle, sign another CF to back up Anderson, and get bullpen help. That would have left the Sox in a much more flexible, but equally strong, position in 2006 and in better shape for 2007-2011.

You're being proven right?

Your plan to have Thome and Frank split 1B duties would have had them both on the DL by July. Both of those guys are much older than Konerko, too.

Frater Perdurabo
06-08-2007, 07:59 AM
You're being proven right?

Lip said that although the total payroll is where it should be, it's tied up in too few players, leaving holes on the team.

I said that a big part of it was unwisely tied up in Konerko. I said so at the time he was signed to the 5-year deal.

Your plan to have Thome and Frank split 1B duties would have had them both on the DL by July. Both of those guys are much older than Konerko, too.

Thome started off hot. Thomas started on the DL. At the beginning of the 2006 season, Thome would have been the full-time DH. By mid May, with Thomas back, he would have been eased into the lineup, with Gload gradually getting fewer starts at 1B. As Thomas heated up, Thome would have rested more (definitely against LHP), which would have made him more effective later in the year, when both he and Thomas would have continued to clobber the ball.

Since you asked, I'd split the 1B duties like so:
Frank starts 30 games (approximately 1.5 games per week)
Thome starts 60 games (his little injuries last year had nothing to do with fielding)
Gload starts 72 games

Meanwhile:
Frank plays 91 games at DH
Thome plays 71 games at DH

That's 131 starts for Thome and 121 for Frank. Since Thome can't hit lefties and Frank started the season on the DL anyway, it would have worked out just fine.

The only difference is that the Sox wouldn't be hamstrung by Konerko's contract.

RCWHITESOX
06-08-2007, 01:15 PM
:?:

You definitely caught me red faced Nellie.

oeo
06-08-2007, 01:21 PM
Lip said that although the total payroll is where it should be, it's tied up in too few players, leaving holes on the team.

I said that a big part of it was unwisely tied up in Konerko. I said so at the time he was signed to the 5-year deal.

We're not paying Konerko $18 million a year, and I think we would have had to pay more for Frank than Oakland did. I still don't like the plan of spending a ton of money on the bullpen. Kenny needs to take a different philosophy in, of course, but relievers are so up and down, you don't stop spending elsewhere so you can get a bunch of veteran relievers.

Thome started off hot. Thomas started on the DL. At the beginning of the 2006 season, Thome would have been the full-time DH. By mid May, with Thomas back, he would have been eased into the lineup, with Gload gradually getting fewer starts at 1B. As Thomas heated up, Thome would have rested more (definitely against LHP), which would have made him more effective later in the year, when both he and Thomas would have continued to clobber the ball.I don't think Frank started on the DL...?

Since you asked, I'd split the 1B duties like so:
Frank starts 30 games (approximately 1.5 games per week)
Thome starts 60 games (his little injuries last year had nothing to do with fielding)
Gload starts 72 games

Meanwhile:
Frank plays 91 games at DH
Thome plays 71 games at DH

That's 131 starts for Thome and 121 for Frank. Since Thome can't hit lefties and Frank started the season on the DL anyway, it would have worked out just fine.

The only difference is that the Sox wouldn't be hamstrung by Konerko's contract.No, the only difference is we would have two guys that are at the end of their career that only hit homeruns or walk. I think you're undervaluing Konerko. And we are not 'hamstrung' by Konerko's contract. Spending that money on relievers is stupid, IMO. No matter how bad our bullpen looks right now, I still do not want big bucks spent on relief pitching.

JB98
06-08-2007, 04:56 PM
I hate to say "I told you so" (and I don't mean you specifically, Lip), but I remember arguing that locking up Konerko to his contract eventually would be an unwise investment because it would tie up too much of the payroll in a one-tool first-baseman. I said at the time that the money would be better spent on locking up Buehrle long-term. I hate that I'm being proven right.

After 2005, I argued the Sox should have traded for Thome, let PK go, re-signed Thomas (have Thome and Thomas split DH/1B duties, with Gload getting some starts at 1B too), used Dye and Gload as the insurance policies at first base in case both Thome and Thomas went down (which as we saw did not happen in 2006), and use the savings to extend Buehrle, sign another CF to back up Anderson, and get bullpen help. That would have left the Sox in a much more flexible, but equally strong, position in 2006 and in better shape for 2007-2011.

The Sox gave pretty nice extensions to both MacDougal and Thornton. Konerko's contract obviously did not stand in the way of spending on the bullpen. It's possible the Sox just spent money on the wrong relief pitchers.

I'm not convinced yet that Buerhle's going to walk. I think there's a greater chance he'll be dealt in July. The Sox have enough money to sign him if they want. The ballpark has been pretty full the last two years.