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View Full Version : *Official* **Sox Beat The Yankees 6-4 postagame thread


MySoxAreClean
06-04-2007, 09:04 PM
Please let them Win from now on we still can win! Otherwise I will dance like this all year> http://youtube.com/watch?v=jKlxjbhB9HE

Dan Mega
06-04-2007, 09:05 PM
game isn't over yet? :?:

kitekrazy
06-04-2007, 09:08 PM
game isn't over yet? :?:

Yeah, now the bullpen is takin' over.

Martinigirl
06-04-2007, 09:11 PM
Please let them Win from now on we still can win! Otherwise I will dance like this all year> http://youtube.com/watch?v=jKlxjbhB9HE

I can't understand, with the way our bullpen has been going, why you would post this before the last out is collected.

ilsox7
06-04-2007, 09:14 PM
I can't understand, with the way our bullpen has been going, why you would post this before the last out is collected.

And why an anti-Cubs logo?

MySoxAreClean
06-04-2007, 09:15 PM
IM so sorry ,I double click the wrong one, If the loose its my fault, Sorry :(

Lorenzo Barcelo
06-04-2007, 09:16 PM
Its like there is a race to be the person to make the first thread for the post game thread. Maybe a mod should start it so people aren't making them 15 minutes early.

BeviBall!
06-04-2007, 09:17 PM
IM so sorry ,I double click the wrong one, If the loose its my fault, Sorry :(

Post of the week and the Sox actually won!

balke
06-04-2007, 09:20 PM
This bullpen thing...

cheezheadsoxfan
06-04-2007, 09:20 PM
Man these guys are killing my nerves. Would have been nice to see Jon get the complete game, but all's well that ends well.:bandance:

delben91
06-04-2007, 09:20 PM
I'll take the win, but needing your closer when the game is 6-1 going into the 9th is embarrassing.

nsolo
06-04-2007, 09:20 PM
IM so sorry ,I double click the wrong one, If the loose its my fault, Sorry :(

What?

JB98
06-04-2007, 09:21 PM
Garland pitched great. It's sad that we have to put our closer in a game where we took a five-run lead into the ninth, but such is the state of things.

Good job by Jenks to clean up Thornton's mess. Someone in this middle relief corps better get some things figured out.

I'm glad we scored against some relief pitchers tonight.

Law11
06-04-2007, 09:22 PM
Nice to see a win all be it a bit shaky at the end..

ilsox7
06-04-2007, 09:22 PM
Post of the week and the Sox actually won!

I need someone to translate it first and also tell me what a postagame is. :D:

hi im skot
06-04-2007, 09:23 PM
Bullpen is still ****ing lousy.

JB98
06-04-2007, 09:23 PM
Bullpen is still ****ing lousy.

At least Jenks was solid.

BeviBall!
06-04-2007, 09:23 PM
I need someone to translate it first and also tell me what a postagame is. :D:

There's literally 5-6 mistakes in that "sentence." My favorite part is the capital "If" after a comma.

bryPt
06-04-2007, 09:24 PM
WHY was Garland pulled? WHY? STOP DOING THAT OZZIE.

whitesoxfan
06-04-2007, 09:25 PM
Bullpen is still ****ing lousy.

Yeah, no lead is safe with these guys.

That was looking like a great win, then the 9th inning rolled around. Great start for Garland tonight. Really needed him to bounce back after the disaster in the **** dome. Jenks' stuff does look wicked once again, so that is real nice to see. And once again, we can't go a game without some reliever sucking ass.

Pleased with the offense tonight. Let's just keep doing this to the Yanks. Their starting pitching is God awful.

ilsox7
06-04-2007, 09:25 PM
WHY was Garland pulled? WHY? STOP DOING THAT OZZIE.

119 pitches. The only reason he even went out there for the 9th is b/c how awful the bullpen was. Nothing wrong with pulling Jon there. The lack of strikes by Thornton was the issue.

hi im skot
06-04-2007, 09:26 PM
At least Jenks was solid.
Yeah...tough luck on Damon's dribbler.

WHY was Garland pulled? WHY? STOP DOING THAT OZZIE.
Because Garland threw nearly 120 pitches. The bullpen has to get its **** together someday.

infohawk
06-04-2007, 09:26 PM
Someone in this middle relief corps better get some things figured out.
This year is just bizarre. The "bad" bug has not only afflicted the entire offense, but the bullpen as well. I mean, what are the odds of so many guys going bad at the SAME TIME? We can only hope that the moves KW made in bringing up Buckvich and Prinz work out, and that Thornton gets it together soon.

BoysMom3
06-04-2007, 09:27 PM
Wow, am I ever glad we won. And I am so glad we were outside meeting our new neighbors for the 8th and 9th innings! I'm going to have a heart attack before this season is over.

JB98
06-04-2007, 09:27 PM
Yeah...tough luck on Damon's dribbler.


Because Garland threw nearly 120 pitches. The bullpen has to get its **** together someday.

We should have been able to trust Thornton with a five-run lead. I've been a big supporter of Matt's, but the performance tonight was indefensible.

ilsox7
06-04-2007, 09:28 PM
We should have been able to trust Thornton with a five-run lead. I've been a big supporter of Matt's, but the performance tonight was indefensible.

I fully agree. They are getting to the point where if anyone but Jenks out of the bullpen walks a guy, they get pulled.

ShoelessJoeS
06-04-2007, 09:28 PM
Nice job by Garland today.

PK, Thome, and Gooch all had nice days as well.

Bullpen..... sheesh

getonbckthr
06-04-2007, 09:29 PM
Big win lets get em tommorow again.

nsolo
06-04-2007, 09:29 PM
VERY NICE to have a win over the Yanks on ESPN. Not usually the case in nationally telecast games. Having the lead through most of the game calmed down the endless chatter about Jetter and Arod.

getonbckthr
06-04-2007, 09:29 PM
Also about ****ing time Gooch did something.

PeoriaSoxFan
06-04-2007, 09:31 PM
The game looked awesome in HD! Nice to win and here's to putting a string of 5+ together.

What are they going to do with Thornton? He is not pitching much better than they guys that just got sent down.

The Immigrant
06-04-2007, 09:32 PM
Also about ****ing time Gooch did something.

It's good to have his bat back, but the two errors are uncharacteristic.

JB98
06-04-2007, 09:33 PM
The game looked awesome in HD! Nice to win and here's to putting a string of 5+ together.

What are they going to do with Thornton? He is not pitching much better than they guys that just got sent down.

Beat him over the head and tell him to throw ****ing strikes. I don't think he's been as bad as the guys that just got sent down, but the last two outings have left a lot to be desired.

The Immigrant
06-04-2007, 09:35 PM
What are they going to do with Thornton? He is not pitching much better than they guys that just got sent down.

He went through tough stretches last year too but always bounced back. I think he'll be fine.

getonbckthr
06-04-2007, 09:36 PM
It's good to have his bat back, but the two errors are uncharacteristic.
well the 2nd one was a tough error

JB98
06-04-2007, 09:37 PM
He went through tough stretches last year too but always bounced back. I think he'll be fine.

He got beat on a broken-bat hit in Toronto. That sucks, but it happens. Tonight, he walked the first guy he faced. That's ridiculous.

I haven't lost confidence in him either, but we need strikes and we need the first batter faced retired.

kitekrazy
06-04-2007, 09:43 PM
This year is just bizarre. The "bad" bug has not only afflicted the entire offense, but the bullpen as well.

The bullpen was lousy last year. Same script but different actors.

MarySwiss
06-04-2007, 09:45 PM
VERY NICE to have a win over the Yanks on ESPN. Not usually the case in nationally telecast games. Having the lead through most of the game calmed down the endless chatter about Jetter and Arod.

And I too thought the coverage was a little less biased than usual...except for the part where they started out from the get-go talking about how tired the Yanks were. Landed at 5 am. Awwww..... the poor babies! Like they couldn't have slept in today. But it's ESPN, so what can you expect?

NoShoesJoe
06-04-2007, 09:56 PM
The bullpen was lousy last year. Same script but different actors.

It's worse! Instead of Cliff and Neal, we've Mike, David, and Andrew

StillMissOzzie
06-04-2007, 09:57 PM
Geez, it's never ****in' easy, is it?

But I LOVE beating the Yankees - any time, any place, laugher or nailbiter, ANY old time!

SMO
:bandance:

JB98
06-04-2007, 09:58 PM
It's worse! Instead of Cliff and Neal, we've Mike, David, and Andrew

Not anymore we don't. :cool:

chisoxfanatic
06-04-2007, 09:59 PM
IM so sorry ,I double click the wrong one, If the loose its my fault, Sorry :(

I felt rather loose myself until the Bullpen came in! :cool:

It always feels great to beat New York! Garland truly controlled this game virtually all the way. It certainly was great to see them take advantage of fielding blunders by the Yankees in the second frame there. With the way they've been hitting lately, I didn't think they'd eke out anything there. Perhaps this whole shake-up thing sent a strong message.

ArkanSox
06-04-2007, 10:07 PM
ok, we're doing the dogpaddle right now.
Catch your breath.
Everything's gonna be all right.
This was a very big win tonight. :bandance:
Believe it or not, this team still has a great chance.

TomBradley72
06-04-2007, 10:25 PM
Every team will win 60 and lose 60. This win is an example of one of the 60 you win. Two errors by Gooch, Yankees play sloppy defense, Thornton throws gas on the fire...one swing away from Jeter tying it...we get a 6-4 win.

(I think this season is making me cranky)

oeo
06-04-2007, 10:26 PM
The game looked awesome in HD! Nice to win and here's to putting a string of 5+ together.

What are they going to do with Thornton? He is not pitching much better than they guys that just got sent down.

One game? Come on...

I know it's frustrating to watch this pen, but just because Thornton had a bad outing today does not mean he's not pitching well. If Bobby blew the game, would that mean he's not pitching well, too?

delben91
06-04-2007, 10:28 PM
(I think this season is making me cranky)

You and me both.

I'm trying a little reverse psychology. My friend quoted the win 60/lose 60 line to me. I told him, "you know what, I bet they won't win 60."

I figure since I've got money riding on it now, the Sox will go on a tear just to spite me.

Hey, can't hurt. :cool:

itsnotrequired
06-04-2007, 10:31 PM
Winning is better than losing.

Sig update time...

JB98
06-04-2007, 10:32 PM
Every team will win 60 and lose 60. This win is an example of one of the 60 you win. Two errors by Gooch, Yankees play sloppy defense, Thornton throws gas on the fire...one swing away from Jeter tying it...we get a 6-4 win.

(I think this season is making me cranky)

But Chris Berman has assured us that White Sox fans are not passionate.

kitekrazy
06-04-2007, 10:40 PM
The ump behind the plate was very inconsistent.

roadrunner
06-04-2007, 10:47 PM
Garland was the man.

I'm getting sick and tired of watching Uribe fail at getting bunts down and then try and hit with two strikes. That lack of execution really hurts against good pitching (unlike the guy tonight).

TheOldRoman
06-04-2007, 10:49 PM
One game? Come on...
And a bad outing Saturday, and a bad outing against Tampa...

I am not ready to kick Thornton off the island, but he needs to get his head out of his ass. I just hope these two guys we called up do good. The entire bullpen sucking right now is all about momentum. One guy does bad, then another comes in to clean up his mess, lets the runner score, puts his own on, and a third comes in, etc. Right now the pen is doing terribly, and it's as if they know they will give up runs when they come in (the fans definately know they will). At this point it is a self fulfilling prophecy. They just need to stop this and get some momentum back. Baseball is a screwy game. If we get a few really good relief appearances, that could change the momentum and instantly turn the bullpen around.

Good game tonight. Hopefully the offense is starting to come out of it. I would have like to see us touch up their pen more and make them use a couple more guys, but at least we put up 6. We needed to score a bunch just to take pressure off of Jon and make sure he didn't meet the same fate Buehrle did on Thursday night. As is turns out, we needed all those runs, because Thornton threw gas allover the fire. Good teams pick each other up. Hopefully the offense is ready to pick the bullpen up for a while, because the pitchers picked them up for the first month and a half.

oeo
06-04-2007, 10:56 PM
And a bad outing Saturday, and a bad outing against Tampa...

Today was the first game I thought he looked bad. Toronto: breaks Vernon Wells' bat, unfortunately he gets a basehit out of it. Tampa: gives up a hard hit ball to center that should be caught, but Terrero gives up on it.

Even today, after the walk, Phelps' hit was softly hit. The only thing that pissed me off was the walk. Unfortunately, Thornton either doesn't get the best defensive efforts behind him, or he jams guys into bloop hits. That is not what MacDougal and Aardsma were doing...not even close.

Tragg
06-04-2007, 10:56 PM
How is Owens looking? He went o fer, but hit at least 1 ball real hard. Does he take pitches or look good at the plate, for those of yall who see him everyday?

gobears1987
06-04-2007, 10:57 PM
WHY was Garland pulled? WHY? STOP DOING THAT OZZIE.Because Ozzie isn't a moron like Dusty Baker. There is a reason Dusty's pitchers get injured.

chisoxfanatic
06-04-2007, 10:58 PM
How is Owens looking? He went o fer, but hit at least 1 ball real hard. Does he take pitches or look good at the plate, for those of yall who see him everyday?
Definitely better than anything BA could offer. He's looking confident out there and just has to get into the swing of things, which will come with time. I like that he runs everything out instead of assuming an out. He's a hard worker.

TDog
06-04-2007, 10:59 PM
I'll take the win, but needing your closer when the game is 6-1 going into the 9th is embarrassing.


Not as embarrassing as being the Yankees these days. Even tonight they lost. I just read the play-by-play and was impressed with the runs that scored on infield outs. And what kind of bullpen gives up home runs to White Sox hitters?

For the first time in almost four years, the White Sox were being shown in a place where I had access to television. I had a class tonight and had to miss it. But it is making for an entertaining read.

ShoelessJoeS
06-04-2007, 11:01 PM
How is Owens looking? He went o fer, but hit at least 1 ball real hard. Does he take pitches or look good at the plate, for those of yall who see him everyday?He's showing some potential, but still looks like a minor leaguer, IMO.

ShoelessJoeS
06-04-2007, 11:04 PM
Not as embarrassing as being the Yankees these days. Even tonight they lost. I just read the play-by-play and was impressed with the runs that scored on infield outs. And what kind of bullpen gives up home runs to White Sox hitters?

For the first time in almost four years, the White Sox were being shown in a place where I had access to television. I had a class tonight and had to miss it. But it is making for an entertaining read.How is the weather in good ol' Juneau, AK?

Brian26
06-04-2007, 11:05 PM
I haven't had a chance to check the Gameday recap yet. How did the Yankees only get one error charged to them in the bottom of the 2nd? I thought ARod made a bad throw to first on Crede's grounder to third, and I thought Phelps threw it away to second.

Did the ARod play get scored as a fielder's choice? If so, it's a terrible call. I thought Crede would have been gone at first.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-04-2007, 11:05 PM
Because Ozzie isn't a moron like Dusty Baker. There is a reason Dusty's pitchers get injured.

Besides 10 pitches, remind me what the difference between 119 and 129 pitches is? If Garland was strong enough to start the 9th (and clearly was against Posada), he was strong enough to pitch to two more hitters. The double to Matsui could have just as easily been hit in the second inning.

Ozzie didn't even give him the chance to talk it over on the mound first - he signaled right out of the dugout. Giving the pen the full night off would have been a nice day for them to catch their breath.

Good work by the offense today. Nice to see some hits out of the 2-hole.

Patrick134
06-04-2007, 11:06 PM
I haven't had a chance to check the Gameday recap yet. How did the Yankees only get one error charged to them in the bottom of the 2nd? I thought ARod made a bad throw to first on Crede's grounder to third, and I thought Cano threw it away at second.

Did the ARod play get scored as a fielder's choice? If so, it's a terrible call. I thought Crede would have been gone at first.


Isn't there some rule where you never assume a double play, so no error is given ?

ChicagoG19
06-04-2007, 11:06 PM
I was there and it was hilarious when the crowd booed ozzie when he took out Garland. Awesome pitched game by garland, but man does this bullpen scare me.

Brian26
06-04-2007, 11:08 PM
Isn't there some rule where you never assume a double play, so no error is given ?

Yep, you're right. I was wrong on the throw too...it was from Phelps, not Cano.

I guess Konerko was going to score anyway, and no other runner took an extra base, so the fielder's choice on Crede makes sense.

ShoelessJoeS
06-04-2007, 11:11 PM
I was there and it was hilarious when the crowd booed ozzie when he took out Garland. Awesome pitched game by garland, but man does this bullpen scare me.Yea the fans sure didn't like it when he stepped out of that dugout. However, I thought it was funny when the one ESPN announcer kept explaining how the crowd's boos were geared towards Ozzie Guillen for taking out Garland, when it was clearly Thornton's suckiness they were displeased about. Anyways...

roadrunner
06-04-2007, 11:13 PM
Besides 10 pitches, remind me what the difference between 119 and 129 pitches is? If Garland was strong enough to start the 9th (and clearly was against Posada), he was strong enough to pitch to two more hitters. The double to Matsui could have just as easily been hit in the second inning.


He also threw over to first a bunch of times. (four times holding jeter on in the first inning alone.)

salty99
06-04-2007, 11:28 PM
Fun game to be at, despite Thornton's meltdown! Go Buehrle, time to get #100!!!

FielderJones
06-04-2007, 11:32 PM
Besides 10 pitches, remind me what the difference between 119 and 129 pitches is?

The ten between 119 and 129, when your muscles are fatigued, are not the same as the ten between 19 and and 29, when you're just warming up. Ozzie was right to give him one baserunner. If he had pitched a perfect 9th, I would have been okay with it. Since Garland was tired enough to allow a double, get him out of there.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-04-2007, 11:48 PM
The ten between 119 and 129, when your muscles are fatigued, are not the same as the ten between 19 and and 29, when you're just warming up. Ozzie was right to give him one baserunner. If he had pitched a perfect 9th, I would have been okay with it. Since Garland was tired enough to allow a double, get him out of there.

I respectfully disagree - the double could have been fatigue or it could have been a good hitter getting a hit. Since he was strong enough to get Posada to weakly pop-out and be trusted to start the inning - he should have been allowed to finish - or get it to the point to where Thornton took the inning.

I am just a believer in starters going out there and finishing games when they get it to that point (especially with an abysmal pen) - Jon didn't throw a tough 119 tonight, either.

palehozenychicty
06-04-2007, 11:49 PM
Well, the pen made it interesting again. But Garland was just dynamite and the Sox won. I'm a happier man, and my buddy can't say anything until tomorrow (he's a Yankee fan). :D:

oeo
06-04-2007, 11:51 PM
I respectfully disagree - the double could have been fatigue or it could have been a good hitter getting a hit. Since he was strong enough to get Posada to weakly pop-out and be trusted to start the inning - he should have been allowed to finish - or get it to the point to where Thornton took the inning.

I am just a believer in starters going out there and finishing games when they get it to that point (especially with an abysmal pen) - Jon didn't throw a tough 119 tonight, either.

It was the right call.

Besides, if Ozzie kept him in there, we'd be hearing about it from ondafarm how Ozzie keeps his pitchers in there too long.

Chicken Dinner
06-04-2007, 11:51 PM
The ten between 119 and 129, when your muscles are fatigued, are not the same as the ten between 19 and and 29, when you're just warming up. Ozzie was right to give him one baserunner. If he had pitched a perfect 9th, I would have been okay with it. Since Garland was tired enough to allow a double, get him out of there.

It was the right move.

gobears1987
06-04-2007, 11:57 PM
I can't believe people are criticizing Ozzie's move. Keeping Garland out there after the double is the same mentality a dumbass like Dusty Baker had when his pitchers had high pitch counts.

Is it worth causing serious fatigue in his arm that can lead to future injuries?

Didn't anyone bother to see how Dusty mishandled his pitchers for four years?

Rob190
06-04-2007, 11:59 PM
Good win, although Ozzie is in a situation where the closer is the only person in the penn that can get anybody out.

TheOldRoman
06-05-2007, 12:02 AM
I respectfully disagree - the double could have been fatigue or it could have been a good hitter getting a hit. Since he was strong enough to get Posada to weakly pop-out and be trusted to start the inning - he should have been allowed to finish - or get it to the point to where Thornton took the inning.

I am just a believer in starters going out there and finishing games when they get it to that point (especially with an abysmal pen) - Jon didn't throw a tough 119 tonight, either.
First off, I think Jon and Buehrle are the only ones Ozzie would even consider sending back out with 119 pitches, since they are the soft tossers.
After that many pitches, you are ready to come out. Garland would have never been out there to begin with, but Ozzie wanted to get him the complete game (and the bullpen sucks). When a pitcher throws the game he did, you owe it to him to let him finish it if it's reasonable.

However, you also owe him the respect of taking him out while his line still looks great, and not letting him give up 4 runs in the 9th just so he gets that 27th out. Ozzie sent him back out for the 9th to see if he could finish it. The whole time, they both knew (as did I), that he would get 1 baserunner. There is no reason he should be out there past 120 pitches. Better for him to pitch a 8.1 inning, 2 run gem than give up several in the ninth and cling to the win. It wouldn't be fair to him to leave him out there, tired and giving up runs, just to save the bullpen.

Also, one baserunner is nothing in a 5 run game. 2 baserunners? That is the beginning of a rally. As our bullpen has shown, it is a lot harder to come in and succeed with a runner on base, let alone 2.

BRDSR
06-05-2007, 12:11 AM
I need someone to translate it first and also tell me what a postagame is. :D:

"Postagame" is actually another typo. It should be "postagamer", which refers to a poster who maintains an average of at least 162 posts per year. For instance, I am a postagamer, as I have amassed more than 1,000 posts over a period in which the Sox have played approximately 400 games.

In all seriousness, I hope this is the beginning of a solid run for the Sox. They are still in this thing, but only if they put together a real winning streak, like 8-10 in a row or 18 out of 20 or something like that. My hope is that the law of averages evens out and everybody starts clicking on all cylinders and winning some games. Only problem is, the law of averages theory only applies to the White Sox if they actually are and above .500 team. Otherwise, they're right on par.

IndianWhiteSox
06-05-2007, 06:42 AM
I can't believe people are criticizing Ozzie's move. Keeping Garland out there after the double is the same mentality a dumbass like Dusty Baker had when his pitchers had high pitch counts.

Is it worth causing serious fatigue in his arm that can lead to future injuries?

Didn't anyone bother to see how Dusty mishandled his pitchers for four years?

What you said for the most part is right. However, everyone tends to forget that in San Fran, he had one of the better pitching coaches in Dave Righetti who pretty much was able to pull a good season out of a crap pitcher. But with the sCrUBS, Dusty had the great Larry Rothschild. If Ozzie had a guy like Rothschild or Nardi, then he too wouldn't have been as good of a manager as he is today. Not to mention, Garland is a ****ING SINKER BALL PITCHER, not a heat type of guy. Therefore pitch counts really don't matter to guys like Garland and Buehrle. If anything, that is an advantage for JG when he has thrown a lot of pitches, his sinker is right on cue.

But that said, Thornton shouldn't stink up the joint like that, especially when you have a five run lead.

TomBradley72
06-05-2007, 08:09 AM
I respectfully disagree - the double could have been fatigue or it could have been a good hitter getting a hit. Since he was strong enough to get Posada to weakly pop-out and be trusted to start the inning - he should have been allowed to finish - or get it to the point to where Thornton took the inning.

I am just a believer in starters going out there and finishing games when they get it to that point (especially with an abysmal pen) - Jon didn't throw a tough 119 tonight, either.

If you can't go to your bullpen with a 6-1 lead with one out in the 9th and your starter has thrown 119 pitches...than you have no bullpen. The idea of a starter going beyond 120 pitches for no compelling reason, doesn't make any sense.

kitekrazy
06-05-2007, 08:21 AM
If you can't go to your bullpen with a 6-1 lead with one out in the 9th and your starter has thrown 119 pitches...than you have no bullpen. The idea of a starter going beyond 120 pitches for no compelling reason, doesn't make any sense.

Oh now there's some common sense.

russ99
06-05-2007, 08:33 AM
How is Owens looking? He went o fer, but hit at least 1 ball real hard. Does he take pitches or look good at the plate, for those of yall who see him everyday?

He still needs to learn the routes to the ball and getting a good first step in center. That double could have been gotten to quicker and on one fading liner he made it look a lot harder than it could be.

Terrero was a defensive replacement for a reason.

Looks good as a hitter and has nice speed.

Frankfan4life
06-05-2007, 10:41 AM
I'm "RELIEVED!" (Need I say more?)

ND_Sox_Fan
06-05-2007, 11:37 AM
...thEn you have no bullpen.

Which we don't. We have a closer, which does not qualify as a "bullpen".

The idea of a starter going beyond 120 pitches for no compelling reason, doesn't make any sense.

Thornton has thrown in 25 games so far this year (53 games) - that translates into 76 appearances over the full 162 game season. Can we give the guy a night or two off? Everyone is complaining about how Matt hasn't been himself in his last few outings ... well, ever think he might be tired, fatigued, etc.? You could make the same argument that Ozzie is wearing out his bullpen arms - like "Dusty did with his starters".

The compelling reasons were: (1) Jon was pitching well, (2) Jon didn't appear to be all that fatigued, and (3) the pen needed a night off.

I hate pitch counts; they are so WORTHLESS. For everyone complaining about how Ozzie manages "by the book" (lefty-righty-lefty); why are you defending him on the use of another chapter in the book? Pulling Jon should have been solely dependent upon Jon's gut at that point (and Ozzie didn't even talk it over with him).

Last night's game was a perfect one to let the starter go out there, take the ball and give it back after the 27th out was recorded. Screw the stats, the team needed Jon to go out there and throw 9 - and he would have - and still gotten the win.

TDog
06-05-2007, 11:38 AM
What you said for the most part is right. However, everyone tends to forget that in San Fran, he had one of the better pitching coaches in Dave Righetti who pretty much was able to pull a good season out of a crap pitcher. But with the sCrUBS, Dusty had the great Larry Rothschild. If Ozzie had a guy like Rothschild or Nardi, then he too wouldn't have been as good of a manager as he is today. Not to mention, Garland is a ****ING SINKER BALL PITCHER, not a heat type of guy. Therefore pitch counts really don't matter to guys like Garland and Buehrle. If anything, that is an advantage for JG when he has thrown a lot of pitches, his sinker is right on cue.

But that said, Thornton shouldn't stink up the joint like that, especially when you have a five run lead.



I'm not going to complain about pulling a pitcher in the ninth with a 6-1 lead because his manager and coaches know a heck of a lot more about the pitcher than I do. I didn't complain about Baldwin being yanked with a 13-0 lead at a game I attended on a Sunday afternoon in 2000. Of course, some bullpen rookie -- Buehrle was his name -- retired the A's in order in the ninth, but fans wanted to see Baldwin stay in and get the shutout. If fans had known that Baldwin would be out with an arm injury by the time the ALDS rolled around, the fans might have questioned him coming out for the eighth. The manager and pitching coach running things seven years ago are long gone, and Baldwin isn't a sinker pitcher, but I'm sure the current manager and pitching coach knows what and how Garland throws. The decision to remove him certainly factored into in considerations of what would be best for today and the future.

I won't profess to know what's better for Garland and the team because I know Garland throws a sinker.

The Sox won. This is a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who.

soxfanaticpaulie
06-05-2007, 12:15 PM
I don't understand how some people are saying it was a dumb move for Ozzie to take out Garland in the 9th...

He had 120 pitches thrown, 1 out, and he had just given up a double. So, no big deal, if he's starting to tire you throw in someone from the bullpen, you have a 6-1 lead and the bottom of the order coming up, one of which ws Phelps, if I remember correctly, who didn't look like he'd be able to BUY a hit all damn night (until he was our bullpen, of course!). It really wasn't an earth-shattering, outside-the-box decision.

If you can't use your bullpen at that point, you need new players. You can't be expected to manage a team with a bullpen that can't get you 2 outs with a 4 run pad to a playoff appearance.

Help us Kenny!!! Find guys that can throw strikes (and BP fastballs don't count, our guys are good and cruising those over the heart of the plate).

FielderJones
06-05-2007, 12:25 PM
Help us Kenny!!! Find guys that can throw strikes (and BP fastballs don't count, our guys are good at cruising those over the heart of the plate).

Have you ever watched BP? It's not simply home run derby. Batters actually hit BP fastballs on the ground or lazy fly balls. With a five run lead, you should be able to dispense with nibbling, throw the ball over the plate, and let the batter get himself out. It's going to happen 6-7 times out of 10.

Chicken Dinner
06-05-2007, 12:42 PM
Which we don't. We have a closer, which does not qualify as a "bullpen".



Thornton has thrown in 25 games so far this year (53 games) - that translates into 76 appearances over the full 162 game season. Can we give the guy a night or two off? Everyone is complaining about how Matt hasn't been himself in his last few outings ... well, ever think he might be tired, fatigued, etc.?

Yeah but he's only pitched 16.1 innings. Ozzie brings him in to face 1 guy. He's not fatigued.

hawkjt
06-05-2007, 01:07 PM
I just hope Jon does not suffer the next few starts after throwing that many pitches last nite... that seems to happen a lot after a guy goes 120+ pitches in one outing..

6 games this week at home against bad teams- win 5 of them and the sox are right back in the thick..

IowaSox1971
06-05-2007, 01:16 PM
I'm not going to complain about pulling a pitcher in the ninth with a 6-1 lead because his manager and coaches know a heck of a lot more about the pitcher than I do. I didn't complain about Baldwin being yanked with a 13-0 lead at a game I attended on a Sunday afternoon in 2000. Of course, some bullpen rookie -- Buehrle was his name -- retired the A's in order in the ninth, but fans wanted to see Baldwin stay in and get the shutout. If fans had known that Baldwin would be out with an arm injury by the time the ALDS rolled around, the fans might have questioned him coming out for the eighth. The manager and pitching coach running things seven years ago are long gone, and Baldwin isn't a sinker pitcher, but I'm sure the current manager and pitching coach knows what and how Garland throws. The decision to remove him certainly factored into in considerations of what would be best for today and the future.

I won't profess to know what's better for Garland and the team because I know Garland throws a sinker.

The Sox won. This is a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who.


I think that Baldwin threw 130 pitches in the game you're referring to, and he never really was the same after that. I also remember Wood and Prior racking up some 130-pitch games for the Cubs. Are high pitch counts why these guys got hurt? I'm not sure, because I remember Nolan Ryan and Bert Blyleven having games where they threw 150 or more, yet their careers certainly didn't end early.

What it might come down to today is this: Pitch counts are so widely reported now that managers are afraid to go too high with them because they don't want to be blamed if a star pitcher ends up getting hurt. If Garland throws 135 pitches in a game and then has arm problems later in the season, then Ozzie knows he will be heavily criticized. By pulling him when he did, Ozzie's off the hook.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-05-2007, 01:41 PM
Yeah but he's only pitched 16.1 innings. Ozzie brings him in to face 1 guy. He's not fatigued.

16.1 innings, but he still has to get up and throw. Having to throw to one batter takes the same prep as it does to throw to 10 guys. Giving his arm a day completely off is 100% different from having him come in and face a batter.

TDog
06-05-2007, 02:04 PM
I think that Baldwin threw 130 pitches in the game you're referring to, and he never really was the same after that. I also remember Wood and Prior racking up some 130-pitch games for the Cubs. Are high pitch counts why these guys got hurt? I'm not sure, because I remember Nolan Ryan and Bert Blyleven having games where they threw 150 or more, yet their careers certainly didn't end early.

What it might come down to today is this: Pitch counts are so widely reported now that managers are afraid to go too high with them because they don't want to be blamed if a star pitcher ends up getting hurt. If Garland throws 135 pitches in a game and then has arm problems later in the season, then Ozzie knows he will be heavily criticized. By pulling him when he did, Ozzie's off the hook.

I'm delighted that I can cite a game without climax from seven years ago and have someone on this board remember it. I don't remember how many pitches Baldwin threw that day because I was sitting behind first base. I just remember thinking Baldwin had worked very hard that day.

The much-more-memorable game I attended in Oakland this year (memorable because it was the game that Jenks lost), I was surprised that Garland stayed in as long as he did. Scoreboards in Oakland keep track of the pitch count (beyond 110 for Garland), but it wasn't just that I thought he might become ineffective in his next start if he threw too many pitches. The reason he threw so many pitches was that the A's were very good at taking him deep in the count. He also was pitching from behind some. Garland obviously had great stuff, but the hitters had seen it. I'm sure his being tired didn't hurt his sinker, but it would have affected his control. Just about every hitter in the lineup had seen his stuff. Under the totality of the circumstances, I expected Garland to come out when he did. Of course, that was a time when the Sox bullpen was lights out, except that people were worried about Jenks.

You may be right. Your analysis probably figured into Guillen's decision last night. Considering too that Garland was tiring, which wouldn't help his control, he was on his fourth time through the lineup against hitters who had seen a lot of his pitches, he had given up a double so that he would have to face at least two more batters to get the complete game, and that starters have lost late leads as frequently as relievers have in the last week, I think taking Garland out in that situation was a no-brainer. Especially with a well-rested Jenks who probably needed work anyway. I don't believe it was purely a matter of the pitch count.

I disagree with many people who second-guess Guillen when the Sox lose because I would have made the same moves. I think second-guessing Guillen when the Sox win is less justifiable.

MCHSoxFan
06-05-2007, 02:51 PM
EVERYTHING was GREAT until...the BULLPEN. What I really liked about this game was that is was a team effort. Everyone did their part in hitting, running the bases well, defense, and HOME RUNS!!!!

I would have kept Garland in. I though that he could have gone all the way. I mean, the bullpen gave up three runs anyway!!!!

Anyways, we got a WIN! Now, let's see a ton more in a row for a looong while! :D:

spiffie
06-05-2007, 03:01 PM
I think that Baldwin threw 130 pitches in the game you're referring to, and he never really was the same after that. I also remember Wood and Prior racking up some 130-pitch games for the Cubs. Are high pitch counts why these guys got hurt? I'm not sure, because I remember Nolan Ryan and Bert Blyleven having games where they threw 150 or more, yet their careers certainly didn't end early.

What it might come down to today is this: Pitch counts are so widely reported now that managers are afraid to go too high with them because they don't want to be blamed if a star pitcher ends up getting hurt. If Garland throws 135 pitches in a game and then has arm problems later in the season, then Ozzie knows he will be heavily criticized. By pulling him when he did, Ozzie's off the hook.
Yes, some pitchers thrive on throwing lots of pitches. The problem is that back in the 70's if you blew a guy's arm up you could just go get a replacement, and nothing was lost. Nowadays you pitch a guy into oblivion, you will be paying for it for years. For every Blyleven or Ryan there are the 1980 Oakland A's, who had two great years with Billy Martin pitching the starters into hamburger, and none of them ever recovered. We remember the rubber armed greats, but only the fans of an individual team remember the guys who flame out from overuse.

Lip Man 1
06-05-2007, 03:09 PM
From Jerry Koosman's interview with WSI:

ML: How do you feel about "pitch counts?" Jerry Manuel seemed to be a pretty firm believer in them even if it meant taking out a starter who was doing well.

JK: "They are fine as a general rule. But you have to trust your judgment. There were games when Iíd throw a 120 pitches and feel fine, there were other games where Iíd start to lose it after 80."

"You can sit and watch and know when a pitcher is starting to lose stuff."

"Thatís what statistics have done to baseball. Itís made the game more complicated and you have some managers now that do everything strictly by the numbers. Iíve seen managers bench a hot hitter simply because the numbers say that the guy doesnít hit this pitcher very well, but the fact is that right now heís hitting everybody well or he wouldnít be on the hot streak. So why bench him?"

Lip