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tyrath25
06-04-2007, 06:29 PM
I readily admit that I don't know a ton about the Sox farm system, and I need to know more. But what is it about the WS farm system that, to be quite blunt, sucks. A lot of guys we call up when they get here simply never seem to be ready. I know when Crede came up he wasn't ready, and he had to learn the majors in the majors. Sweeney and BA did alright but apparently weren't ready. And our pitchers... oh man. I'm happy that we're at least trying something with our bullpen right now, but to be honest, I don't think these guys are going to do any better. (I would love to eat my words though) But why does our farm system suck, and what can we do to make it better?

GO SOX

ty

Patrick134
06-04-2007, 06:38 PM
I readily admit that I don't know a ton about the Sox farm system, and I need to know more. But what is it about the WS farm system that, to be quite blunt, sucks. A lot of guys we call up when they get here simply never seem to be ready. I know when Crede came up he wasn't ready, and he had to learn the majors in the majors. Sweeney and BA did alright but apparently weren't ready. And our pitchers... oh man. I'm happy that we're at least trying something with our bullpen right now, but to be honest, I don't think these guys are going to do any better. (I would love to eat my words though) But why does our farm system suck, and what can we do to make it better?

GO SOX

ty

What pitchers are you saying "oh man" to ? aardsma, macdougal, massett
are all from other farm systems.

JB98
06-04-2007, 06:45 PM
What pitchers are you saying "oh man" to ? aardsma, macdougal, massett
are all from other farm systems.

I hope I'm not putting words in the mouth of the original poster, but I think the concern is the lack of big-league pitchers being developed by our farm system. We have been reliant on importing arms from other organizations. That has worked until recently, as we've seen Aardsma, MacDougal and Masset blow up in our faces. Danks looks like another hit, but it would be nice to develop some of our own pitchers.

Buerhle is the only guy in our rotation who was drafted and developed by the Sox. I think the organization can claim Garland to a point. He was a mess when he first came over from the Cubs, but has reached his potential with the Sox. Among the relievers, I think Logan is homegrown as well. The jury is out on him.

oeo
06-04-2007, 06:50 PM
Buerhle is the only guy in our rotation who was drafted and developed by the Sox. I think the organization can claim Garland to a point. He was a mess when he first came over from the Cubs, but has reached his potential with the Sox. Among the relievers, I think Logan is homegrown as well. The jury is out on him.

Who actually puts an entire rotation together of guys you've drafted?

JB98
06-04-2007, 06:52 PM
Who actually puts an entire rotation together of guys you've drafted?

Nobody. What's your point?

KyWhiSoxFan
06-04-2007, 06:52 PM
I hope I'm not putting words in the mouth of the original poster, but I think the concern is the lack of big-league pitchers being developed by our farm system. We have been reliant on importing arms from other organizations. That has worked until recently, as we've seen Aardsma, MacDougal and Masset blow up in our faces. Danks looks like another hit, but it would be nice to develop some of our own pitchers.

Buerhle is the only guy in our rotation who was drafted and developed by the Sox. I think the organization can claim Garland to a point. He was a mess when he first came over from the Cubs, but has reached his potential with the Sox. Among the relievers, I think Logan is homegrown as well. The jury is out on him.

A couple of guys in ten years. Not much of a track record. Plus, Buerhle was a 37th round (or so) pick and Garland came from that other organization. We must have the worst talent scouts in all of baseball. You'd think randomly picking names out of a hat during the draft would yield more major leaguers than that.

JB98
06-04-2007, 06:56 PM
A couple of guys in ten years. Not much of a track record. Plus, Buerhle was a 37th round (or so) pick and Garland came from that other organization. We must have the worst talent scouts in all of baseball. You'd think randomly picking names out of a hat during the draft would yield more major leaguers than that.

We can also include McCarthy, who we flipped to Texas for three additional arms. But the jury is very much out on Brandon as well.

oeo
06-04-2007, 06:59 PM
Nobody. What's your point?

Well, we have one guy, Buehrle, that we drafted, another guy in Garland that came through our system. Out of the up-and-coming guys, I think Gio is the one guy that will make an impact immediately, and Broadway will be a guy like Garland who will take some time.

It's possible that we could have 3 guys in our rotation next year (if Buehrle is re-signed and Gio is called up) that came through our system...that's not good?

Daver
06-04-2007, 07:01 PM
But why does our farm system suck, and what can we do to make it better?



It doesn't suck if it buys you talent in return, like Danks and Masset, but I see where you are coming from with this.

To change it? Increase the scouting budget and change the organizations philosophy on how players move up through the system.

JB98
06-04-2007, 07:06 PM
Well, we have one guy, Buehrle, that we drafted, another guy in Garland that came through our system. Out of the up-and-coming guys, I think Gio is the one guy that will make an impact immediately, and Broadway will be a guy like Garland who will take some time.

It's possible that we could have 3 guys in our rotation next year (if Buehrle is re-signed and Gio is called up) that came through our system...that's not good?

The jury is out. I guess I shouldn't be sticking up for the original poster. But I don't think the Sox farm system has been particularly productive over the course of the past decade.

Our World Series team was made up primarily of guys we bought low on from other organizations.

Paulwny
06-04-2007, 07:11 PM
and change the organizations philosophy on how players move up through the system.


Daver, care to elaborate on this part.

FedEx227
06-04-2007, 07:13 PM
It is no doubt a problem. With pitchers its more understandable that you don't build from within, but there is absolutely no excuse for the recent struggles with our farm position players. So far Chris Young appears to be on the right track but we have not had one blockbuster position player drafted in the past 10 years.

And no, the excuse "we're always good because we have low draft picks", that's BS, because value can be found at any round during the draft. Most no.1 picks fizzle anyway.

Eventually the luck of being able to acquire guys from other teams is going to run out eventually. I think we've seen this year that the lack of having an impact rookie or youngster has really derailed our OF.

Daver
06-04-2007, 07:29 PM
Daver, care to elaborate on this part.

For positional players right now the Sox move players up based on how well they hit, no matter what the rest of their game is like. They really need to change this so that a player can handle all aspects of the game, including situational hitting, before being promoted, it produces a better team player in the long run.

Though they are getting better about it, the Sox still have a tendency to rush pitchers, especially starters, and it has cost them some potentially good pitchers, like Jon Rauch, and possibly Kris Honel. They need to let the pitchers learn at their own pace, not the pace they select for them.

A lot of the way the Sox do things now is money based, they want a fast turn around on the money invested in signing bonuses, but if you get no return on that investment have you really gained anything?

oeo
06-04-2007, 07:53 PM
The jury is out. I guess I shouldn't be sticking up for the original poster. But I don't think the Sox farm system has been particularly productive over the course of the past decade.

Our World Series team was made up primarily of guys we bought low on from other organizations.

Me neither, but I don't think starting pitching is the biggest issue...not even close. I would kill to actually draft and develop a good catcher or middle infielder.

JB98
06-04-2007, 07:58 PM
Me neither, but I don't think starting pitching is the biggest issue...not even close. I would kill to actually draft and develop a good catcher or middle infielder.

No question. We have next to nothing for middle infielders. I hope Getz works out, but last I checked, Valido was having a rotten year.

whitem0nkey
06-04-2007, 08:19 PM
in terms of pitchers does it seem like the sox like to draft control guys instead of power pitchers because they take less time to be major league ready. so you can have a tradable commodity faster vs drafting a power pitcher who can take longer to develop.

edit: spelling

Fungo
06-04-2007, 09:23 PM
It doesn't suck if it buys you talent in return, like Danks and Masset, but I see where you are coming from with this.

To change it? Increase the scouting budget and change the organizations philosophy on how players move up through the system.

Absolutely agree. The money for scouting & player development is the best money a ballclub can spend.

kitekrazy
06-04-2007, 09:40 PM
A couple of guys in ten years. Not much of a track record. Plus, Buerhle was a 37th round (or so) pick and Garland came from that other organization. We must have the worst talent scouts in all of baseball. You'd think randomly picking names out of a hat during the draft would yield more major leaguers than that.

I think this is common with most teams. Sure Garland is from another organization but it was the scouts who recommended trading for him. They couldn't get Garland because some other team drafted him.

rdivaldi
06-04-2007, 09:51 PM
A lot of guys we call up when they get here simply never seem to be ready. I know when Crede came up he wasn't ready, and he had to learn the majors in the majors. Sweeney and BA did alright but apparently weren't ready. And our pitchers... oh man. I'm happy that we're at least trying something with our bullpen right now, but to be honest, I don't think these guys are going to do any better. (I would love to eat my words though) But why does our farm system suck, and what can we do to make it better?

GO SOX

ty

First I'd like a list of players that came up and immediately became superstars. Not a very long list, eh? The fact is that most major leaguers come up and struggle in the beginning of their careers. For every Albert Pujols there are 20 Paul Konerkos (guys who struggled at the beginning of their career but became solid major leaguers).

I will agree that our farm system has been not the greatest as of late, but to expect youngsters like Sweeney to come up and hit .300+ is ridiculous and to say our farm system "sucks" is just childish overreaction.

rdivaldi
06-04-2007, 09:53 PM
Though they are getting better about it, the Sox still have a tendency to rush pitchers, especially starters, and it has cost them some potentially good pitchers, like Jon Rauch, and possibly Kris Honel.

I agree about our tendency to rush pitchers, but those are not good examples Daver. Both of those guys were on track until they got injured, rushing had very little to do with it IMO.

Daver
06-04-2007, 09:59 PM
I agree about our tendency to rush pitchers, but those are not good examples Daver. Both of those guys were on track until they got injured, rushing had very little to do with it IMO.

We'll agree to disagree, the minor league coaches chose to correct perceived flaws in their mechanics, and they were moved before these coaches were allowed to finish what they started.

Lip Man 1
06-04-2007, 10:27 PM
There are very few people around who spends more time and follows the Sox minor league players as closely as Daver. When he speaks on this matter it pays to listen.

Let's put it this way, he knows enough so that Phil Rogers used him as a background source on the system, that's good enough for me.

On another note, keep in mind that Kenny is not pleased with the way things are going. Twice in the off season he 'warned' the minor league people they have to start doing a better job and according to a story in the Tribune last week he is 'personally' getting involved in the draft Thursday which sends a clear message to the minor league folks.

Lip

spiffie
06-05-2007, 01:29 AM
First I'd like a list of players that came up and immediately became superstars. Not a very long list, eh? The fact is that most major leaguers come up and struggle in the beginning of their careers. For every Albert Pujols there are 20 Paul Konerkos (guys who struggled at the beginning of their career but became solid major leaguers).

I will agree that our farm system has been not the greatest as of late, but to expect youngsters like Sweeney to come up and hit .300+ is ridiculous and to say our farm system "sucks" is just childish overreaction.
I don't think anyone is asking for an endless string of 21 yr old wunderkinds. But generally our rookies end up near the bottom among rookies. Not to beat the poor dead horse, but look at Anderson last year. If he would have just been average among other 2006 rookies he would have been fine, but he was the worst performing of the entire crop. I think people would be happy if some of our rookies came up and just did okay. Outside of Jenks, that seems to have not happened recently.

Grzegorz
06-05-2007, 06:08 AM
There are very few people around who spends more time and follows the Sox minor league players as closely as Daver. When he speaks on this matter it pays to listen.
Lip

Daver/Lip,

Do the Chicago White Sox has a periodical, like the Cubs do with 'Vineline', that gives reports on the minor league affiliates and the scouting department?

FedEx227
06-05-2007, 10:04 AM
Daver/Lip,

Do the Chicago White Sox has a periodical, like the Cubs do with 'Vineline', that gives reports on the minor league affiliates and the scouting department?

To the best of my knowledge, no. My best bet would be a magazine/newspaper like Baseball America

itsnotrequired
06-05-2007, 10:08 AM
Absolutely agree. The money for scouting & player development is the best money a ballclub can spend.

And for small-market teams, it is one of the only ways to remain competitive. These teams simply don't have the money to sign marquee free agents so need to rely on their scouting and player development staffs to keep the team competitive.

russ99
06-05-2007, 10:46 AM
Check out milb.com - it's the minor league's website and each team and player has a page. That's probably the best way to follow our minor league teams. Also read the sport sections for the cities our affiliates are in.

Baseball America and their annual prospect/minor league books are also a quite good source.

I'd be all for a system like the A's and Twins have, where their offensive players are required to have a certain skill set in order to move up in the organization. The Sox system seems to be too oriented in tools and intangibles-based scouting to me and that's why I think the guys we get in the Majors (at least the hitters) don't seem to be ready.

Still it's really a crapshoot. No one in the majors has a perfect system or can tell you who's going to be a break-out star in this league, other than a rare few super-talented players.

SoxxoS
06-05-2007, 10:49 AM
The guys I have read at BA (Callis et al.) are traditionally hard on the Sox and their drafting...I don't think they are too high on the Sox player development since the 2000 pitcher disaster.

Bobby Jenks
06-05-2007, 11:55 AM
Check out milb.com - it's the minor league's website and each team and player has a page. That's probably the best way to follow our minor league teams. Also read the sport sections for the cities our affiliates are in.

Baseball America and their annual prospect/minor league books are also a quite good source.

I'd be all for a system like the A's and Twins have, where their offensive players are required to have a certain skill set in order to move up in the organization. The Sox system seems to be too oriented in tools and intangibles-based scouting to me and that's why I think the guys we get in the Majors (at least the hitters) don't seem to be ready.

Still it's really a crapshoot. No one in the majors has a perfect system or can tell you who's going to be a break-out star in this league, other than a rare few super-talented players.


The thing with baseball,you just don't know how HS kids are gonna turn out. Every team drafts "tools"players. Braves have lived off their system for years

Lip Man 1
06-05-2007, 01:01 PM
An interesting aside in Mark Gonzales weekly Sox Fans questions column today.

A fan asked about the minor leagues and as part of the answer Mark said that a few opposing team scouts have mentioned to him that something is happening to retard development of Sox positional players once they get past Double A. The names Sweeney, Anderson and Rogowski were specifically mentioned.

Lip

eriqjaffe
06-05-2007, 01:10 PM
potentially good pitchers, like Jon Rauch, and possibly Kris Honel.I'd say that Rauch is pretty clearly more than a "potentially" good pitcher, with the success he's having for the Nats.

Lip Man 1
06-05-2007, 01:12 PM
Eriq:

It's always a hell of a lot easier to play for a bad team with zero expectations then to play for a contender.

That may be part of the issues with Sisco and MacDougal as well.

Lip

SoxxoS
06-05-2007, 01:21 PM
An interesting aside in Mark Gonzales weekly Sox Fans questions column today.

A fan asked about the minor leagues and as part of the answer Mark said that a few opposing team scouts have mentioned to him that something is happening to retard development of Sox positional players once they get past Double A. The names Sweeney, Anderson and Rogowski were specifically mentioned.

Lip


Its "retarded" to list Sweeney's developent. He was 21 and in AAA last year and hit nearly .300.

Will he hit 40 homers? No. But he is going to hit for average and play good defense.

He is struggling right now in AAA but A)its a long season B) He got called up in the middle of the season, which had to hurt a little -

Lets see what his numbers look like in September. He turned 22 in February.

eriqjaffe
06-05-2007, 01:22 PM
Eriq:

It's always a hell of a lot easier to play for a bad team with zero expectations then to play for a contender.

That may be part of the issues with Sisco and MacDougal as well.

LipI suppose.

Still, I can't see Rauch being any worse for us than MacDougal, Sisco or Aardsma have been this year.

Tragg
06-05-2007, 01:44 PM
We didn't get rid of Rauch because he couldn't play - he annoyed the management. Right?

Lip Man 1
06-05-2007, 01:50 PM
Soxxos:

That's something you'd need to ask the opposing team scouts who made the comment.

Lip

Foulke You
06-05-2007, 02:09 PM
We didn't get rid of Rauch because he couldn't play - he annoyed the management. Right?
If I recall the situation correctly (and someone chime in here if I'm wrong)...Rauch left the ballpark after he was pulled from a start for a reliever. KW wanted to speak with Rauch after the game about something and was furious that he couldn't find him because he no longer was at Comiskey Park even though the game was still going on. This incident definitely greased the skids for Rauch's departure.

Lip Man 1
06-05-2007, 04:16 PM
Correct... he was already on the interstate going home. It had something to do with his parents making a flight out if I recall correctly.

Kenny thought it was very unprofessional since he didn't ask for permission. They may have cut him some slack if he pitched well but the Angels (?) lit him up like a Christmas tree.

Lip

eriqjaffe
06-05-2007, 04:34 PM
For the record, Rauch only pitched twice for the Sox in '04.

May 29, he got lit up by the Angels (3.2 innings, 10 hits, 5 runs). I'm pretty sure that's the day he left he park early.

He made it into another game, starting on June 24, going 5 innings against Cleveland, allowing a run on 6 hits and got the win.

On July 18, he was traded (with Gary Majewski (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/majewga01.shtml)) to the Expos for Carl Everett.

Daver
06-05-2007, 09:38 PM
I'd say that Rauch is pretty clearly more than a "potentially" good pitcher, with the success he's having for the Nats.

He was drafted as a starter, and had the ability to be a top of the rotation starter, I would not call being in the Nats bullpen as successful, more like trying to find any job he can in MLB.