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View Full Version : Rumor: White Flag II - Giants and Sox


Brian26
06-01-2007, 06:49 PM
I have a buddy I talk to frequently out in California, and he's a big Giants fan. He just sent me this email. I haven't been around a tv, radio, or computer all day, so I don't know if anyone has seen this in Chicago yet. This guy is super reliable, and I don't doubt he heard this on the radio. Interesting to say the least...

Local radio says Giants have had the teams top 2 scouts following Chicago all week. Said its possible Dye and Crede are SF bound. You hear anything?

munchman33
06-01-2007, 06:50 PM
I have a buddy I talk to frequently out in California, and he's a big Giants fan. He just sent me this email. I haven't been around a tv, radio, or computer all day, so I don't know if anyone has seen this in Chicago yet. This guy is super reliable, and I don't doubt he heard this on the radio. Interesting to say the least...

They've got a few pitchers I'd give both those guys up for immediately.

IlliniSox4Life
06-01-2007, 06:51 PM
I heard there have been SF scouts at Sox games for a couple of days in a row, but I haven't heard any names of who they are looking at.

Navarro's Talent
06-01-2007, 06:53 PM
Well, if a deal does go down, I hope KW gets a king's ransom.

DVsoxfan
06-01-2007, 06:57 PM
Tim Lincecum anyone???

The Immigrant
06-01-2007, 06:58 PM
Well, if a deal does go down, I hope KW gets a king's ransom.

Something tells me Old Man Vizquel would be a part of any package we get from SF.

At least he would once again be in the same division as Jose Mesa. :wink:

Navarro's Talent
06-01-2007, 07:00 PM
Something tells me Old Man Vizquel would be a part of any package we get from SF.

At least he would once again be in the same division as Jose Mesa. :wink:

Now, that would make for an interesting division rivalry!

I'd guess at least five bench-clearing brawls would ensue before October comes. :D:

DumpJerry
06-01-2007, 07:00 PM
Mark Gonzalez reported in today's Cubune that last night was the fourth game in a row the Giants had a scout at the Sox game.

Read about it here. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1591619&postcount=100)

JB98
06-01-2007, 07:05 PM
Something tells me Old Man Vizquel would be a part of any package we get from SF.

At least he would once again be in the same division as Jose Mesa. :wink:

If we acquire Vizquel, I give up.

That old man was great at one time, but he's hitting .228 and has lost a step defensively.

Jjav829
06-01-2007, 07:07 PM
They've got a few pitchers I'd give both those guys up for immediately.

Unfortunately, I doubt they're dumb enough to trade Cain or Lincecum.

Noah Lowry, on the other hand, is probably available.

The Immigrant
06-01-2007, 07:07 PM
If we acquire Vizquel, I give up.

I'm with you - perish the thought.

munchman33
06-01-2007, 07:11 PM
Unfortunately, I doubt they're dumb enough to trade Cain or Lincecum.

Noah Lowry, on the other hand, is probably available.

That's probably likely. I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of Lowry for Crede deal. Fields is ready, and then dealing Buehrle could probably fetch a good bit to help us now or later.

goon
06-01-2007, 07:29 PM
That's probably likely. I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of Lowry for Crede deal. Fields is ready, and then dealing Buehrle could probably fetch a good bit to help us now or later.

Lowry is looking like he did in 05, but still it sucks that's all we would get for Crede considering I believe he still is bound by contract through 2008, so it's not just a one year rental.

Lincecum looks great, but Cain is a guy I really like... SO 179 guys last year and he's only 22. Though if I was GM of the Giants, I'd probably hold onto those two.

munchman33
06-01-2007, 07:59 PM
Lowry is looking like he did in 05, but still it sucks that's all we would get for Crede considering I believe he still is bound by contract through 2008, so it's not just a one year rental.

Lincecum looks great, but Cain is a guy I really like... SO 179 guys last year and he's only 22. Though if I was GM of the Giants, I'd probably hold onto those two.

No position player that close to FA is worth a young stud starter like Cain or Lincecum. Joe has back problems, to boot. IMO, if we can spin him for someone like Lowry, we should consider ourselves extremely lucky. We'd most likely have to throw some low level minor leaguers in to swing that deal.

DeadMoney
06-01-2007, 08:11 PM
Unfortunately, I doubt they're dumb enough to trade Cain or Lincecum.

Noah Lowry, on the other hand, is probably available.

Well, the same GM did trade Bonser, Liriano and Nathan for Pierzynski and cash.

champagne030
06-01-2007, 08:16 PM
I have a buddy I talk to frequently out in California, and he's a big Giants fan. He just sent me this email. I haven't been around a tv, radio, or computer all day, so I don't know if anyone has seen this in Chicago yet. This guy is super reliable, and I don't doubt he heard this on the radio. Interesting to say the least...

The Giants have been scouring for bullpen help and really didn't help their cause with the trade last night. That is, unless they consider it addition by subtraction. My guess is that their looking to get MacDougal on the cheap or kick the tires on Thornton. I don't like the direction of this team so far, but trading Crede or Dye at this point would be a really tough job to sell publicity wise. If we're .500 in a month then Lowry for Crede isn't so bad, but that probably would mean MB is going to be dealt too.

DSpivack
06-01-2007, 08:16 PM
No position player that close to FA is worth a young stud starter like Cain or Lincecum. Joe has back problems, to boot. IMO, if we can spin him for someone like Lowry, we should consider ourselves extremely lucky. We'd most likely have to throw some low level minor leaguers in to swing that deal.

Where'd he play? Starting pitching is not currently our worry. OF and RPs are a much bigger need.

mrfourni
06-01-2007, 08:17 PM
If we acquire Vizquel, I give up.

That old man was great at one time, but he's hitting .228 and has lost a step defensively.


But it would move the Sox one step closer to having every Cleveland Indian from the mid to late 90's on the roster at some point

SoxxoS
06-01-2007, 08:17 PM
Well, the same GM did trade Bonser, Liriano and Nathan for Pierzynski and cash.

All guys that were unproven or bad at the MLB level (Nathan).

So we need to dig in their minors for names.

munchman33
06-01-2007, 08:19 PM
Where'd he play? Starting pitching is not currently our worry. OF and RPs are a much bigger need.

Buehrle would be traded next in this scenerio. And your "needs" are very short term. SP is a longterm need. Buehrle is a free agent. And this team has played like crap.

DeadMoney
06-01-2007, 08:27 PM
All guys that were unproven or bad at the MLB level (Nathan).

So we need to dig in their minors for names.

Sounds like Kenny to me.

If we had to wait 2 or 3 years to see results, I don't think it would be widely accepted by fans and the media, but I'd go for it. This team, following this season, needs a scenery change. And, if it takes a mid-season trade for this to happen, I don't think I'd care too much. Just give me something to be excited about because this team (as is right now) isn't doing it for me.

Tragg
06-01-2007, 10:04 PM
What young hitters or position players do the Giants have for trade? That's what we need.

DSpivack
06-01-2007, 10:18 PM
What young hitters or position players do the Giants have for trade? That's what we need.

Giants? Young? Those two words don't often go together.

UserNameBlank
06-01-2007, 10:31 PM
I don't know what the Giants have that we would want as far as a white flag scenario. Yes there are Cain and Lincecum, but I highly highly doubt SF gives that up.

More likely might be a Randy Winn-for-Sox reliever swap. SF has Fred Lewis waiting for an everyday shot in CF while the Sox need a CF if they don't want to commit to playing Anderson everyday.

BiggestFan14
06-01-2007, 10:32 PM
The Sox would be dumb to do any sort of trade with the Giants. The season is far from over.

soxtalker
06-01-2007, 10:46 PM
I took a quick look at the standings in the NL West. The Giants don't appear to be in much better of a situation than we are. Like us, they've got three teams ahead of them. Now, I don't know about their situation regarding pending FA's (like Buehrle and Dye for us), and that does play a huge role in any decisions KW makes regarding trades.

UserNameBlank
06-01-2007, 10:55 PM
That's probably likely. I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of Lowry for Crede deal. Fields is ready, and then dealing Buehrle could probably fetch a good bit to help us now or later.
Note on Lowry (http://www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/players/Noah_Lowry/):

Lowry has excellent command over a strong curveball, plus a great change-up and low-90s heat. He's mentally tough.

Takes a while to heat up early in the season. Struggles with runners in scoring position and needs to develop more stamina.

Quality mid-rotation lefty.

Sounds exactly like what we don't need when we have Danks and Gio already, plus the possibility of re-signing Buehrle.

Any deal for Dye and Crede should bring back something that we actually need. Aside from Cain and Lincecum, I don't see anything the Giants have that we would need or really even want. Altough highly unlikely, if Dye + Crede could bring one of those two pitchers, that deal is already done.

ShoelessJoeS
06-01-2007, 10:55 PM
Well, the same GM did trade Bonser, Liriano and Nathan for Pierzynski and cash.:o:

PeteWard
06-01-2007, 11:09 PM
The Sox would be dumb to do any sort of trade with the Giants. The season is far from over.


No ****!!! One back in the L column for the wild card and everybody is either giving up or gouging their eyeballs out.

It's June 1 for cryin' out loud!

A. Cavatica
06-02-2007, 12:01 AM
You can never have too much good lefthanded pitching. Crede for Lowry -- with Fields coming up to play third and Mackowiak available as a backup -- would be a good trade.

StillMissOzzie
06-02-2007, 12:22 AM
If we acquire Vizquel, I give up.

That old man was great at one time, but he's hitting .228 and has lost a step defensively.

Geez, I hope not.

The reason Vizquel is on the Giants in the first place is because they offered the 3rd year for his last contract (2005-2007), where IIRC, the Sox only offered two years. So now you think the Sox are gonna pick up the remainder of 2007, when they didn't want him for any of this year, based on their offer following the 2004 campaign? :kukoo: :nuts:

Just say NO. Kenny!

SMO
:?:

salty99
06-02-2007, 12:26 AM
I have a buddy I talk to frequently out in California, and he's a big Giants fan. He just sent me this email. I haven't been around a tv, radio, or computer all day, so I don't know if anyone has seen this in Chicago yet. This guy is super reliable, and I don't doubt he heard this on the radio. Interesting to say the least...

Maybe we can get Ray Durham back and play Bonds in center. This rumor sucks.

Tragg
06-02-2007, 12:40 AM
Giants? Young? Those two words don't often go together.That's what I thought. But young is what we need, so it's hard to believe we're talking with them.

regionsox73
06-02-2007, 01:13 AM
According to media reports, the SF Giants have been scouting the Sox something like 6 consecutive games. With this being said, who do you think they would be interested in and are there any players that are not for sale?

My gut feel tells me they would be interested in a guy like Dye or Crede. I don't think they would want AJ back and their starting rotation is pretty good- maybe a vet like Contreras? Bullpen wise, other than Jenks/Thornton and maybe Boone Logan (young arm), SOLD.

My not for sale list would include Danks and Jenks for sure. Realistically with Dye, Crede, Iguchi, Buehrle (I am sure there are more) being in the final year of a contract they potentially could all be gone. I love Konerko and Thome as a fan, but I understand how it all works.

As much as I loved the World Series D, Uribe's departure would not crush me. For as many awesome plays he makes, he also will make a bonehead play and has been a disaster at the plate. I think Mr. Williams cannot go into 2008 depending on Pods and Erstad, and should not platoon in CF- that is too key a position in my opinion.

WhiteSox5187
06-02-2007, 01:22 AM
I think the Giants are looking at a long list of candidates and I think it would be foolish for Kenny to trade off any of our key players now at the start of June. I think though the Giants are probably compiling a list that says "If the Sox are out of it by the deadline, these are guys we're interested in..." and I'm sure the Sox have scouts scowering the league saying "These are guys we're interested in if team x is out of it by the deadline and looking to sell..."

Foulke You
06-02-2007, 01:22 AM
Geez, I hope not.

The reason Vizquel is on the Giants in the first place is because they offered the 3rd year for his last contract (2005-2007), where IIRC, the Sox only offered two years. So now you think the Sox are gonna pick up the remainder of 2007, when they didn't want him for any of this year, based on their offer following the 2004 campaign? :kukoo: :nuts:

Just say NO. Kenny!

SMO
:?:
Agreed. A couple years back, I wouldn't have been against bringing Vizquel on board but now, he is looking every bit his age. Do we really need another .220 hitter right now? Pure speculation here but perhaps KW is exploring Vizquel as a replacement for Pablo and not a replacement for Uribe/Iguchi?

regionsox73
06-02-2007, 01:24 AM
I love the 4 team playoff, but I hate the fact that there can be 16 teams that think they are contenders as of July 31. My suggestion would be to push the deadline back to August 15 or something.

Foulke You
06-02-2007, 01:30 AM
Just a heads up, there is a thread about this at What's the Score. People are speculating that the Sox might have interest in Lowry, Randy Winn, or Vizquel:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=88450

regionsox73
06-02-2007, 01:34 AM
Wasn't that rumored back in like 2003? I didn't like it then because I thought Omar was OLD. LOL

TDog
06-02-2007, 01:43 AM
I love the 4 team playoff, but I hate the fact that there can be 16 teams that think they are contenders as of July 31. My suggestion would be to push the deadline back to August 15 or something.

I would move the trade deadline to the end of May, at least no later than June 25, where it was about two decades ago. Baseball should outlaw the ability of the haves to cannibalize the have-nots on annual basis.

FarWestChicago
06-02-2007, 06:57 AM
I don't like the direction of this team so far...What a shock. You hate every athlete on every team in Chicago. The only transient to ever pass through the city you liked was BA. All that hating makes the above statement, well, a non-statement. :D:

hose
06-02-2007, 10:27 AM
If White Flag II is going to down it will take another month , month and a half at the very least before it happens.

Lukin13
06-02-2007, 11:05 AM
If this trade IS close it has to be Winn or Visquel for one of our relievers, most likely MacDougal; people are ready to run Mike Mc'D out of town and I gurantee there are 25 GMs out there that would love to have him. He is just going through a rough spot right now. A change of scenery deal might be in order.

Cain is a major peg in their rotation, I cannot imagine a deal happening in the next few days includes him.

The Giants DO need some pop though.... So I guess Crede for Lowry wouldn't blow me away.

gosiu
06-02-2007, 11:36 AM
Geez, I hope not.

The reason Vizquel is on the Giants in the first place is because they offered the 3rd year for his last contract (2005-2007), where IIRC, the Sox only offered two years. So now you think the Sox are gonna pick up the remainder of 2007, when they didn't want him for any of this year, based on their offer following the 2004 campaign? :kukoo: :nuts:

Just say NO. Kenny!

SMO
:?:
Well that's some ****ty logic. He's not going to avoid acquiring him just because he didn't want to offer a third year, and this happened to be that third year. If he feels he'll help the team, he'll consider it. Also, you think he'll hit .225 all year long? Players don't hit .225 all year long damnit!

soxwon
06-02-2007, 01:39 PM
They've got a few pitchers I'd give both those guys up for immediately.
People dont you realise we we wont get any big names in a deal.
only prospects!!!
No team in its right mind would deal veterans for future Free agents.
Though crede is signed thru 08.

munchman33
06-02-2007, 01:45 PM
People dont you realise we we wont get any big names in a deal.
only prospects!!!
No team in its right mind would deal veterans for future Free agents.
Though crede is signed thru 08.

Noah Lowry isn't exactly a big name.

DumpJerry
06-02-2007, 02:06 PM
Players don't hit .225 all year long damnit![/COLOR]
Really? Quite a few do, actually.
By the way:
:tealtutor:

Bobby Jenks
06-02-2007, 02:16 PM
All guys that were unproven or bad at the MLB level (Nathan).

So we need to dig in their minors for names.


Nathan was 12-4 the year before he was traded. From what co workers tell me,Liriano was just a throw in picked from a list of 5 minor leaguers. Back to the the point,i think Cain is available for the right price,but Sabean would take too much heat for dealing Linecum. The Giants do have a knack for having talent in the lower levels.so they would be an ideal trade partner

gosiu
06-02-2007, 03:31 PM
Really? Quite a few do, actually.
By the way:
:tealtutor:
So it does happen? Ruh-ro. Look out Konerko.

Jjav829
06-02-2007, 03:49 PM
Well, the same GM did trade Bonser, Liriano and Nathan for Pierzynski and cash.

Except those guys were never as highly thought of as Cain and Lincecum. And they hadn't shown the potential at the big league level that these two have.

What young hitters or position players do the Giants have for trade? That's what we need.

Any of them. Sabean loves to trade young players for older players. :smile:

102605
06-02-2007, 04:22 PM
Except those guys were never as highly thought of as Cain and Lincecum. And they hadn't shown the potential as the big league level that these two have.

As much of an advocate I am of NOT trading Buehrle, I'd throw the Giants Buehrle, Dye, and Crede for Lincecum.

Completely hypothetical fantasy/video game like trade but maybe Sabaan is dumb enough? :smile:

MySoxAreClean
06-02-2007, 09:26 PM
Chuck Norris

soxwon
06-03-2007, 01:12 PM
Noah Lowry isn't exactly a big name.
why deal with the NL
that league sucks?

getonbckthr
06-03-2007, 01:20 PM
why deal with the NL
that league sucks?
Minus being the World Series Champions

balke
06-03-2007, 01:27 PM
The Sox haven't hit all season. They've stranded countless runners with no outs. The bullpen is awful. They have free agent issues. They have an old team with 6 injuries so far this year. Right now they're chasing the Indians, Tigers, and Twins.

I wouldn't feel nearly as bad about this "white flag" scenario.

UserNameBlank
06-03-2007, 01:55 PM
Minus being the World Series Champions
That was the worst WS team I've ever seen. The Tigers should have won that thing but they beat themselves.

IndianWhiteSox
06-03-2007, 03:17 PM
Geez, I hope not.

The reason Vizquel is on the Giants in the first place is because they offered the 3rd year for his last contract (2005-2007), where IIRC, the Sox only offered two years. So now you think the Sox are gonna pick up the remainder of 2007, when they didn't want him for any of this year, based on their offer following the 2004 campaign? :kukoo: :nuts:

Just say NO. Kenny!

SMO
:?:

Hold on a second!

What you said, you're absolutely right about that and I'm glad they didn't sign him for that year. However, if the Sox can acquire Vizquel by maybe trading only a lower prospect like a Tim Redding, Malone or Munoz then you would have to consider it.

UserNameBlank
06-03-2007, 03:40 PM
Hold on a second!

What you said, you're absolutely right about that and I'm glad they didn't sign him for that year. However, if the Sox can acquire Vizquel by maybe trading only a lower prospect like a Tim Redding, Malone or Munoz then you would have to consider it.
Why? Uribe is pretty low on the reasons why we suck right now considering he's a SS and the team isn't exactly counting on his production.

IndianWhiteSox
06-03-2007, 04:09 PM
Hold on a second!

What you said, you're absolutely right about that and I'm glad they didn't sign him for that year. However, if the Sox can acquire Vizquel by maybe trading only a lower prospect like a Tim Redding, Malone or Munoz then you would have to consider it.

Why? Uribe is pretty low on the reasons why we suck right now considering he's a SS and the team isn't exactly counting on his production.

That's why I mentioned the bolded statement above. The fact is, maybe with Vizquel you can catch three months of lightning in a bottle and he can be the #2 hitter for the rest of the year. Meanwhile, you can trade Uribe and still get good prospects to bolster the farm system even more. It's not a knock on him as it is more of a lack in speed or base stealing. It worked with Roberto Alomar, just remember.

rowand33
06-03-2007, 04:12 PM
Hold on a second!

What you said, you're absolutely right about that and I'm glad they didn't sign him for that year. However, if the Sox can acquire Vizquel by maybe trading only a lower prospect like a Tim Redding, Malone or Munoz then you would have to consider it.

Tim Redding is in the Nats organization. And I'm sure that nobody in baseball considers him any more of a prospect than Danny Wright.

UserNameBlank
06-03-2007, 05:00 PM
That's why I mentioned the bolded statement above. The fact is, maybe with Vizquel you can catch three months of lightning in a bottle and he can be the #2 hitter for the rest of the year. Meanwhile, you can trade Uribe and still get good prospects to bolster the farm system even more. It's not a knock on him as it is more of a lack in speed or base stealing. It worked with Roberto Alomar, just remember.
If you wanted a replacement for Uribe in order to trade him, we already have one in Alex Cintron. If we're trading Juan we're giving up anyway, so no reason to replace him with a good defensive player. Besides, Uribe's option for next year is valuable to us. Valido isn't ready now and he may never be. Unless we get another SS we'd be forced into a stopgap situation next year, and that's really not my idea of trying to rebuild. I think we'd need to look outside the organization for someone who is ready or near ready at that position before making any moves. If Juan was as valuable as some of the other guys on our team I'd say make the move just to sell high and deal with the circumstances later, but he isn't going to net us a package great enough to open an organization hole even wider.

On Vizquel over Uribe as to make this team better, I don't see the point. We already have a 2 hitter in Iguchi, and he looks much more comfortable hitting 2nd than he did 7th. We're fine in that area. I haven't seen Vizquel play in a while, but I have a hard time believing that he offers anything over Juan on defense at his age. You also have to factor in the loss of Uribe's power.

Tragg
06-03-2007, 09:09 PM
I would think we'd want to keep Uribe around and beyond this year. He's a really good fielder and he has power. Most SS don't deliver that much. Presuming he's at a reasonable price. He should bat 8 or 9, which is pretty much were SS bat.

Cintron is a utility infielder - he'd be ridiculous as a a starting SS. Vizquel is old and declining.

Sargeant79
06-04-2007, 01:55 AM
I would think we'd want to keep Uribe around and beyond this year. He's a really good fielder and he has power. Most SS don't deliver that much. Presuming he's at a reasonable price. He should bat 8 or 9, which is pretty much were SS bat.



For the most part I agree with that. But I'd say to just pick up his option for next year and see what the situation is a year from now. A lot can change by then. Hell...a lot can change by the end of this year. I remember a lot of people on this board were citing upgrading at the SS position as one of the highest priorities of last offseason.

DickAllen72
06-04-2007, 11:55 AM
I would think we'd want to keep Uribe around and beyond this year. He's a really good fielder and he has power. Most SS don't deliver that much. Presuming he's at a reasonable price. He should bat 8 or 9, which is pretty much were SS bat.

Cintron is a utility infielder - he'd be ridiculous as a a starting SS. Vizquel is old and declining.
Totally agree on all points.

The Immigrant
06-04-2007, 12:11 PM
I would think we'd want to keep Uribe around and beyond this year.

2004 .283/.327/.506
2005 .252/.301/.412
2006 .235/.257/.441
2007 .212/.276/.342

You sure you want him around beyond this year? At $5 million for 2008?

The Immigrant
06-04-2007, 12:16 PM
I imagine that KW will take a long, hard look at David Eckstein in the offseason.

spiffie
06-04-2007, 12:25 PM
2004 .283/.327/.506
2005 .252/.301/.412
2006 .235/.257/.441
2007 .212/.276/.342

You sure you want him around beyond this year? At $5 million for 2008?
Hey, Juan has improved from last year. This year he only has the sixth-lowest OBP in the AL, as opposed to his dead last performance from last year.

Frater Perdurabo
06-05-2007, 08:30 PM
I imagine that KW will take a long, hard look at David Eckstein in the offseason.

Now that's a grinder who interests me.

bestkosher
06-06-2007, 12:50 PM
I imagine that KW will take a long, hard look at David Eckstein in the offseason.

Yes, why not have KW trade the White Sox roster for the LAAA Roster the most grindiest in the world. Maybe, they can include Tim Salmon as well.

UserNameBlank
06-06-2007, 02:24 PM
Now that's a grinder who interests me.
Don't let his scrappy play fool you. Eckstein's career OBP is .350. His highest over a full season was .363 (twice) and the lowest it's ever been during a full season is .325. He's been a pretty consistent career .284 hitter as his highest BA over a full season is .294 and his lowest being .252. Over 7 seasons so far, he's hit .285 or higher 5 times and had an OBP of .350 or higher 4 times. His current OBP is .348.

Erstad, a true grinder, has a career OBP of .340 with his highest during a full season being .409 and his lowest .308, a difference of over 100 points. He's a career .285 hitter, with his highest batting average over a full year being .355 and his lowest being .252, over 100 points difference. Over 12 seasons so far, he's hit below .260 4 times during his career, has hit at an average higher than his career average 4 times, and has hit .284, .283, .273, and .264 in the other 4.

Unlike Eckstein who is a solid offensive player pretty much all the time and gets his career numbers from consistent productive seasons, Erstad gets his good career numbers due to huge Rowand-like spikes in production which are offset by several medicore and terrible years.

Grinders either fail to be productive all the time or only produce here and there. Erstad, while he is clutch, is what grinding is all about.

Frater Perdurabo
06-07-2007, 07:52 PM
Don't let his scrappy play fool you. Eckstein's career OBP is .350. His highest over a full season was .363 (twice) and the lowest it's ever been during a full season is .325. He's been a pretty consistent career .284 hitter as his highest BA over a full season is .294 and his lowest being .252. Over 7 seasons so far, he's hit .285 or higher 5 times and had an OBP of .350 or higher 4 times. His current OBP is .348.

The reasons you list above are why Eckstein interests me. In addition to being consistent, he also does "grinderly" things.

I'd sign Ichiro, then sign Eckstein to play 2B, making Dye and Iguchi expendable and creating a fantastic 1-2 dynamo.
:bandance:

FedEx227
06-07-2007, 08:04 PM
The reasons you list above are why Eckstein interests me. In addition to being consistent, he also does "grinderly" things.

I'd sign Ichiro, then sign Eckstein to play 2B, making Dye and Iguchi expendable and creating a fantastic 1-2 dynamo.
:bandance:

Are we on a mission to get as old as possible in a hurry? What does signing either of those do for the future of our organization. Great, they give us 2-3 solid years and then what, they'll be old and expensive.

munchman33
06-07-2007, 08:15 PM
Are we on a mission to get as old as possible in a hurry? What does signing either of those do for the future of our organization. Great, they give us 2-3 solid years and then what, they'll be old and expensive.

Position players are easier to replace...

FedEx227
06-07-2007, 08:17 PM
Position players are easier to replace...

As we've shown all of this year. Replacing position players with career UTIL players.

munchman33
06-07-2007, 08:20 PM
As we've shown all of this year. Replacing position players with career UTIL players.

In the offseason, at least. Market is flooded with them.

Jjav829
06-07-2007, 08:40 PM
I wanted to post this when I first replied to this thread, but forgot and I just remembered it. Since we're on the topic of trades with the Giants...

I'm watching the Giants and Rockies a week or two back. It was near the end of the game and it wasn't really a close game. The Rockies announcers get to talking about the Giants contending. The Rockies color guy (I don't know his name, and frankly, I really don't care to know it) starts talking about the Giants needing to upgrade their middle infield. What's his solution to this problem? Trading a combination of Russ Ortiz, Steve Kline and Matt Morris. :?: Ok...

For the next few minutes this guy proceeds to explain how the Giants could package Russ Ortiz and Kline to get the middle infielder that they need. Now this brings up several questions: A.) Who the **** wants Russ Ortiz or Steve Kline, much less both of them? B.) Is any infielder you could possibly acquire for Ortiz and Kline an upgrade to Durham/Frandsen and Vizquel? (The answer is obviously NO!) C.) Does this guy pay attention to baseball? I mean really, the Giants are in your team's division. At least glance at the Giants' team statistics, notice players like Ortiz and Kline are awful and make a mental note.

Thankfully, after sitting there for a few minutes wanting to smash my head into a wall, his partner finally pointed out that Ortiz and Kline are awful and that no sane GM is giving up anything decent for them.

These are the kinds of things you get watching Rockies baseball...

A. Cavatica
06-07-2007, 11:07 PM
In the offseason, at least. Market is flooded with them.

If position players were truly easy to replace, Royce Clayton would not have a job.

WhiteSox5187
06-08-2007, 12:24 AM
If position players were truly easy to replace, Royce Clayton would not have a job.
That's a lie because Royce Clayton is the greatest shortstop in the history of the game. He puts Honus Wagner to shame.

munchman33
06-08-2007, 01:02 AM
If position players were truly easy to replace, Royce Clayton would not have a job.

It's all relative. 2B and OF are not hard to find replacements for in the offseason. This year has a ton of available outfielders. And last year, the market was flooded with able 2B. Far more than the demand for starters.

FedEx227
06-08-2007, 08:57 AM
But then you cripple yourselves in future expenses ala Cubs by just signing FA to fill all your holes. Look at the DeRosa deal the Flubbies signed in the offseason by not having any faith in their farm system, now they are stuck with a backup making $11 million for the next 5 years.

UserNameBlank
06-08-2007, 09:07 AM
But then you cripple yourselves in future expenses ala Cubs by just signing FA to fill all your holes. Look at the DeRosa deal the Flubbies signed in the offseason by not having any faith in their farm system, now they are stuck with a backup making $11 million for the next 5 years.
They did have Theriot and Ronny Cedeno. Not that either are great players, but they didn't have to make that signing. Most teams coming off of IIRC a 67 win season don't splurge on free agents like the Cubs did, they rebuild through trades and player development. The Cubs thought they could rebuild through FA. Whoops...

FedEx227
06-08-2007, 09:21 AM
They did have Theriot and Ronny Cedeno. Not that either are great players, but they didn't have to make that signing. Most teams coming off of IIRC a 67 win season don't splurge on free agents like the Cubs did, they rebuild through trades and player development. The Cubs thought they could rebuild through FA. Whoops...

Exactly. Rebuilding through FA does not put your team in a good situation. Look at the 2001-Present Yankees, you end up overpaying older guys who are untradeable near the end of their contracts.

I'm not against us signing some free agents because it is no doubt what we're going to have to do based on our farm system, but to plug 3 holes with 30+ years old FAs is already a bad start.

Craig Grebeck
06-08-2007, 09:56 AM
Eckstein? Shoot me in the ****ing face.

rowand33
06-08-2007, 04:20 PM
Eckstein? Shoot me in the ****ing face.

06 world series MVP, has hit .293 during his time with the cards, gets on base, good fielder.

I'd take him as my number 9 hitter over Uribe.

I'm not sure who said this on here, but I'm paraphasing...

I like the style of baseball ozzie believes in; wouldn't it be nice if we got him players that could actually play that style of baseball?

Lip Man 1
06-08-2007, 04:42 PM
Assuming they go the free agent route I think the Sox will be in the bidding for Ichiro, Castillo and Eckstein.

Lip

Foulke You
06-08-2007, 05:32 PM
Assuming they go the free agent route I think the Sox will be in the bidding for Ichiro, Castillo and Eckstein.

Lip
Castillo and Eckstein would add some much needed speed and certainly fit the grinderball mentality. They also seem to fit into the Sox budget. I would love Ichiro but I have a feeling we're going to get priced out of the Ichiro sweepstakes.

FedEx227
06-08-2007, 05:57 PM
Castillo and Eckstein would add some much needed speed and certainly fit the grinderball mentality. They also seem to fit into the Sox budget. I would love Ichiro but I have a feeling we're going to get priced out of the Ichiro sweepstakes.

Haha. And people again get mad at me because I call out people that judge players not on their past accomplishments, but rather their "grinderball" mentality.

Castillo = 31 years old... career .295/.369/.358, 20+ SB/year. I'd take him.
Eckstein = 32 years old... career .284/.350/.360, hasn't been near 20 steals since 2004, walked only 31 times last year.

We're rebuilding with a 31, 32 and 33 year old. Paging 2001-Present New York Yankees.

DickAllen72
06-08-2007, 06:10 PM
I wouldn't mind Eckstein at 2B at this point in his career.

DSpivack
06-08-2007, 06:27 PM
Haha. And people again get mad at me because I call out people that judge players not on their past accomplishments, but rather their "grinderball" mentality.

Castillo = 31 years old... career .295/.369/.358, 20+ SB/year. I'd take him.
Eckstein = 32 years old... career .284/.350/.360, hasn't been near 20 steals since 2004, walked only 31 times last year.

We're rebuilding with a 31, 32 and 33 year old. Paging 2001-Present New York Yankees.

I wouldn't mind Eckstein at 2B at this point in his career.

Is Iguchi a free agent?

FedEx227
06-08-2007, 06:30 PM
Is Iguchi a free agent?

from Cot's Baseball Contracts:

Tadahito Iguchi 2b
2 years/$4.95M (2005-06), plus $3.25M 2007 club option

signed as a free agent from Japan 1/05
05:$2.3M, 06:$2.4M, 07:$3.25M club option ($0.25M buyout)
club exercised $3.25M 2007 club option 10/06
contract includes clause requiring White Sox to sign Iguchi to an extension by sometime in 2007, or release him (effectively granting Iguchi free agency after three years of ML service)
agent: Richard Moss
ML service: 2.000

JorgeFabregas
06-08-2007, 06:38 PM
I'd love to have Castillo.

FedEx227
06-08-2007, 06:40 PM
Castillo I will no doubt agree with, if we do get him. A slick fielding, somewhat quick gap hitter... count me in.

If we get Eckstein I might jump off of a cliff.

JB98
06-08-2007, 06:43 PM
The excitement about Castillo perplexes me. People think he is a great basestealer, but he has the same number of steals as Iguchi (five) this season.

I think someone will overpay for Castillo. We should stick with Iguchi and get better value for the money.

UserNameBlank
06-08-2007, 06:58 PM
Haha. And people again get mad at me because I call out people that judge players not on their past accomplishments, but rather their "grinderball" mentality.

Castillo = 31 years old... career .295/.369/.358, 20+ SB/year. I'd take him.
Eckstein = 32 years old... career .284/.350/.360, hasn't been near 20 steals since 2004, walked only 31 times last year.

We're rebuilding with a 31, 32 and 33 year old. Paging 2001-Present New York Yankees.
We can't rebuild through FA but if it so works out that we aren't able to acquire a worthwhile young player to start, I wouldn't mind a reasonable contract for a veteran at a position like 2B. That said, I'd be leery of a 3 year deal and anything beyond that would be a big no way.

I certainly wouldn't want to give out large contracts to veterans that would block the development of younger players, but a spot like DH, 2B, C, or RP would be fine. Even though filling those positions with veterans wouldn't automatically mean the team would contend, it would at the very least provide some more veteran leadership and hopefully make it so we wouldn't lose 90+ games every year. While the draft position is important, it's not important enough to risk turning the major league club into a Royals-like enviornment where even the players themselves expect to lose virtually every time out.

IMO, in order to rebuild KW needs to:
1. Re-sign at least one of Buehrle/Garland
2. Find a young SP with ace potential no more than 2 years away
3. Find a young AllStar type OF with power
4. Get a young leadoff man with above average speed who is smart on the bases
5. Find a very good defensive SS who can at least be consistent with the bat

That's a lot of work to do, but IMO if those needs are filled, we're a contender again. Fields should be good, I know everyone hates Anderson but I think he's going to be a decent CF, Sweeney should be a nice no. 2 hitter, Danks should be solid, and one of Russel/Gio/Egbert/Floyd should be able to develop into a solid #4 starter.

JorgeFabregas
06-08-2007, 07:39 PM
The excitement about Castillo perplexes me. People think he is a great basestealer, but he has the same number of steals as Iguchi (five) this season.

I think someone will overpay for Castillo. We should stick with Iguchi and get better value for the money.
Huh? I don't care at all about his base stealing. I care that he's got a career .295 average and .369 OBP. No power to speak of, but he gets on base and fields well. ETA: I guess the numbers suggest that Iguchi is a better fielder. I guess it's not that big of a difference overall.