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View Full Version : How can the Sox NOT re-sign Buehrle?


SoxxoS
06-01-2007, 11:52 AM
I realize the outrageous contracts pitchers have been getting recently (although, somewhat miraculously Lilly/Marquis/Meche have been living up to them) and Buehrle is going to command a kings ransom.

But he is entering the prime of his career. He HAD his rough stretch last second half. He is durable like no other. He is LEFT HANDED.

Pitching wins championships, as we all know. The bullpen hasn't been holding their end of the bargain, but you are going to need to keep starters like Mark around to RE-LOAD, not RE-BUILD. The Sox are a major market, there should be NO REBUILDING. KW can make some moves at the trade deadline to get some good talent in here. That's fine. But next year we should be in position to win another championship. The Sox are 2 ****ing years removed from a world series.

And I love Gio Gonzalez, and consider him the far and away best prospect the Sox have, but he is NOT a reason to not re-sign Buehrle b/c that would put 3 lefties in the starting rotation. That will work itself out.

Contreras is due for social security soon, and he can't really be counted on when his contract is up. Danks looks OK, but I worry about him when he faces teams the second time through. Javy is Javy. Garland is Garland.

We need that ace, and if KW doesn't resign him, HOW IS HE GOING TO FIND ANOTHER ONE? Waiting for developement of in-house talent is risky and no-guarantee. We have a sure thing in Buehrle. Give him a 4 year deal and ride out his prime. He can buck the trend of JR not giving over 3 year deals b/c he is so damn durable (and shows NO signs of future injury with his motion) and consistant. A pitcher like Mark is one of the only guys worth giving a longer deal to.


Point is, the Sox should re-load and get ready for 2008. Waive the white flag at the trade deadline if we don't have a chance, but Buehrle should be re-signed so don't have to wait for another MARK BUEHRLE. It's not like he is retiring, he is ENTERING HIS PRIME.

That is all.

Chicken Dinner
06-01-2007, 11:55 AM
If the team keeps playing like they are, Buehrle might not even be on the team at the end of July. :o:

itsnotrequired
06-01-2007, 11:56 AM
Question: Team X offers Buehrle a 5 yr/$90 million contract. Do you honestly believe the Sox would be able to match this? because I sure don't think so.

BeviBall!
06-01-2007, 11:58 AM
Question: Team X offers Buehrle a 5 yr/$90 million contract. Do you honestly believe the Sox would be able to match this? because I sure don't think so.

That's real.

SoxxoS
06-01-2007, 12:00 PM
Got news for everyone - if that is what the market is for major market teams (which the Sox are) that is the way it is.

There is a reason why he is worth that much.

102605
06-01-2007, 12:01 PM
So for this organizations future we will not play any part of dealing in the inflated free agent market? That is a load of ****. We are a top 5/6 payroll team. Ante up! Or we can be the KC Royals in 5 years.

spiffie
06-01-2007, 12:03 PM
Question: Team X offers Buehrle a 5 yr/$90 million contract. Do you honestly believe the Sox would be able to match this? because I sure don't think so.
Would they be able to? Sure. Especially if you figure with the kids coming up that we will be shedding a lot of salary over the next few years. Between Dye, Contreras and Thome we will be shedding over $25 million in the next two years. If you factor one more pitcher, either Jon or Javy, that jumps to $35 million. If you kept a rotation of Buehrle at $18 million, Jon/Javy at $10-14 million, and three kids totalling $1-2 million we would be spending a reasonable amount on the rotation.

They won't match that of course, but they could do it quite feasibly.

CubKilla
06-01-2007, 12:03 PM
So for this organizations future we will not play any part of dealing in the inflated free agent market? That is a load of ****. We are a top 5/6 payroll team. Ante up! Or we can be the KC Royals in 5 years.

If this crap the past couple of days keeps up, we might be the KC Royals by the trading deadline.

jabrch
06-01-2007, 12:04 PM
The ball will be in Mark's court. If he wants to make the most money possible, he will end up a Met next year. If he wants to make very good money and be a Sox, he will.

Frankly, I don't care either way - if he want's 15mm per for 7 years, then I don't want him. I know how good he is - but I'm not willing to tie 100+mm into a pitcher for a 7 year deal under any circumstance. If he's willing to do 4/56, then KW and JR should already have the ink dry. The question is where will he end up wanting to be - rich in Chicago, rich in St. Louis or richer elsewhere.

SoxxoS
06-01-2007, 12:05 PM
So for this organizations future we will not play any part of dealing in the inflated free agent market? That is a load of ****. We are a top 5/6 payroll team. Ante up! Or we can be the KC Royals in 5 years.

Thank you.

And there is no such thing as an inflated market, really, as a market is a perfect equilibrium of what a team will pay.

Theoretically, if Mark was offered 5 years 90 million, some team would be willing to pay him 5 years 89,999,999 million...or else that is just bad business.

jabrch
06-01-2007, 12:05 PM
So for this organizations future we will not play any part of dealing in the inflated free agent market? That is a load of ****. We are a top 5/6 payroll team. Ante up! Or we can be the KC Royals in 5 years.

That's stupid.

It isn't that we won't play a part of dealing in the inflated FA market - it is that we aren't doing it stupidly.

There's a difference.

jabrch
06-01-2007, 12:07 PM
Thank you.

And there is no such thing as an inflated market, really, as a market is a perfect equilibrium of what a team will pay.


That's not true. This is not a pure efficient market. You have very scarce resources and very few bidders, none acting with perfect information.

Flight #24
06-01-2007, 12:10 PM
The ball will be in Mark's court. If he wants to make the most money possible, he will end up a Met next year. If he wants to make very good money and be a Sox, he will.

Frankly, I don't care either way - if he want's 15mm per for 7 years, then I don't want him. I know how good he is - but I'm not willing to tie 100+mm into a pitcher for a 7 year deal under any circumstance. If he's willing to do 4/56, then KW and JR should already have the ink dry. The question is where will he end up wanting to be - rich in Chicago, rich in St. Louis or richer elsewhere.

The problem is that your assumption si that you can find similar caliber pitching cheaper, which is not necessarily the case. For example, that's what KW's tried to do with the bullpen and it blew up in his face.

Who's the Sox future ace? Danks? Masset? Gio? IMO the Sox would be lucky to have one of them be a solid #2 or 3 guy and another a solid #3 or 4. That's not based on anything except that 1)none of them is dominant so far and 2)it's very very hard to project any rookie or prospect to be an ace.

So unless you get lucky, you'll need to either do without an ace or pay for one. Buehrle's not exactly asking to break the market, just get it (or near it). If the Sox aren't willing to do that at all, then I believe they're relegating themselves to a serious rebuilding (including high draft picks so that they can try and develop an ace).

That's why when you have a guy like that, you do everything you can to keep him. Like I said, if Burls is willing to take a slight discount form Zito to stay, that's a good deal for the Sox. But it's almost certainly going to be at least 4/$65M (if you extend the term, you might get a lower avg salary, but with only a 4-year deal it'll have to be 15-17M/yr).

Flight #24
06-01-2007, 12:11 PM
That's stupid.

It isn't that we won't play a part of dealing in the inflated FA market - it is that we aren't doing it stupidly.

There's a difference.

Who do you target as the front of your rotation then?

102605
06-01-2007, 12:11 PM
That's stupid.

It isn't that we won't play a part of dealing in the inflated FA market - it is that we aren't doing it stupidly.

There's a difference.

Resigning Buehrle would be stupid? :?: What exactly does he need to prove to you?

102605
06-01-2007, 12:12 PM
The problem is that your assumption is that you can find similar caliber pitching cheaper, which is not necessarily the case.

Bingo!

champagne030
06-01-2007, 12:14 PM
Question: Team X offers Buehrle a 5 yr/$90 million contract. Do you honestly believe the Sox would be able to match this? because I sure don't think so.

No, but you wouldn't be insulting him again if they put an offer of 5/$65 on the table today. And, my guess, is that he would sign it.

kobo
06-01-2007, 12:15 PM
If the Sox resign Buehrle they will not sign him to a deal that is longer than 4 years. The organization does not like to sign pitchers to long contracts and I don't see them giving Mark more than 4 years. If they do resign him, he's going to get somewhere between 12 and 15 million a year. This would mean they would have over $40 million invested per year in their starting rotation between Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, and Vazquez. That simply is not going to happen. Resigning Buehrle means one of the other starters is going to be traded.

jabrch
06-01-2007, 12:16 PM
So unless you get lucky, you'll need to either do without an ace or pay for one. Buehrle's not exactly asking to break the market, just get it (or near it). If the Sox aren't willing to do that at all, then I believe they're relegating themselves to a serious rebuilding (including high draft picks so that they can try and develop an ace).

We don't know what Mark is asking for. If he is asking for Zito money/length, then I hope we pass and either go without an ace, or find one willing to take a shorter deal. Very few of these big long term deals end up good for the teams who sign them.



Who do you target as the front of your rotation then?

Good question - not sure - but not a pitcher who wants a 7+ year deal at 15+mm per.

Resigning Buehrle would be stupid? :?: What exactly does he need to prove to you?

That's complete bullcrap. You know full well that I didn't say resigning Buehrle is stupid. I was saying resigning Buehrle for the same deal Zito got would be stupid. You do understand the difference between the two, right?

itsnotrequired
06-01-2007, 12:18 PM
No, but you wouldn't be insulting him again if they put an offer of 5/$65 on the table today. And, my guess, is that he would sign it.

My guess is he wouldn't.

102605
06-01-2007, 12:18 PM
If the Sox resign Buehrle they will not sign him to a deal that is longer than 4 years. The organization does not like to sign pitchers to long contracts and I don't see them giving Mark more than 4 years.

That attitude better change in this situation fast. Your not going to find an equal pitcher in the market for any cheaper. So instead we rely on unproven rookies? Yeah that'll be about as fun to watch as this season has been so far.

I_Liked_Manuel
06-01-2007, 12:19 PM
i like mark as much as the next guy, but frankly- if he goes out commanding a ton of money over 5+ years, i have no problem letting him walk. i'm getting pretty tired of these "face of the franchise" arguments that i keep seeing- are we going to point to that when we realize that we're paying nearly a million dollars per win from buehrle next year, the year after, etc?

what's it going to take to re-sign him? 15m/year? that's ridiculous for a guy that's won over 16 games 1 time in his career. i'd rather wait a year and lock garland up long term.

and to further clarify- mark buehrle is not an ace, he has never been an ace, and he never will be an ace

102605
06-01-2007, 12:19 PM
Good question - not sure - but not a pitcher who wants a 7+ year deal at 15+mm per.



That's complete bullcrap. You know full well that I didn't say resigning Buehrle is stupid. I was saying resigning Buehrle for the same deal Zito got would be stupid. You do understand the difference between the two, right?

You have no idea what he is asking for or how many years. 7+?

ondafarm
06-01-2007, 12:21 PM
Since I've been getting bashed for my management ideas elsewhere, permit me to answer the question with a slightly acidic twist.

How can the Sox not re-sign Buehrle?

If Phil Rogers gets his wish and runs the team, they'll dump him tomorrow.:dtroll:




Now, for myself (and slightly less acidic.):D:

I'd call Mark's agent, say what does he want and then write up a contract with those numbers filled in and fax it back to him. Today.

Mark is a Greg Maddux like innings-eater. Not a flameballer but if Halliday got the primo pitcher's calls from last night's umpire and MB matched him nearly perfectly thru eight, then I'd say MB is a primo pitcher and the Sox need to keep him. End of story.

oeo
06-01-2007, 12:22 PM
Question: Team X offers Buehrle a 5 yr/$90 million contract. Do you honestly believe the Sox would be able to match this? because I sure don't think so.

I don't think anyone offers him 18 mil per. That's what Zito got, and Buehrle isn't even the best pitcher on the market this year. I think the Sox will go as high as 4 years (not their typical 3).

itsnotrequired
06-01-2007, 12:25 PM
I don't think anyone offers him 18 mil per. That's what Zito got, and Buehrle isn't even the best pitcher on the market this year. I think the Sox will go as high as 4 years (not their typical 3).

Buehrle is the best left-hand pitcher on the market this year. An inning eater, no injuries and only 28 years old.

Mark has a very big payday in his future (assuming the pitching market is as nutty as it was last year).

oeo
06-01-2007, 12:28 PM
Buehrle is the best left-hand pitcher on the market this year. An inning eater, no injuries and only 28 years old.

Mark has a very big payday in his future (assuming the pitching market is as nutty as it was last year).

Still, Zito got that kind of money because there was no one on the market. I just don't see it. I think 4 yr/64 mil is a fair deal.

itsnotrequired
06-01-2007, 12:33 PM
Still, Zito got that kind of money because there was no one on the market. I just don't see it. I think 4 yr/64 mil is a fair deal.

So who is the other premier LHSP available in 2008? The man-mountain David Wells? The 60-day DL dinosaur Kenny Rogers? Father Time aka Tom Glavin?

Pettitte is available (assuming he doesn't pick up his option with the Yankees) but other than that, there is no one.

WhiteSox5187
06-01-2007, 12:41 PM
If the Sox resign Buehrle they will not sign him to a deal that is longer than 4 years. The organization does not like to sign pitchers to long contracts and I don't see them giving Mark more than 4 years. If they do resign him, he's going to get somewhere between 12 and 15 million a year. This would mean they would have over $40 million invested per year in their starting rotation between Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, and Vazquez. That simply is not going to happen. Resigning Buehrle means one of the other starters is going to be traded.
I would gladly depart with el Hombre Viejo to re-sign Buerhle. Gladly.

I think it would be foolish to let Mark walk, and I think if the Sox make a competitive offer, he'll stick around. I just have a gut feeling for that. The guys you build this pitching rotation around, or at least teh guys I would build this rotation around, are Danks, Garland and Buerhle. Buerhle IS our ace. He may never win twenty, but give me a guy who can consistently win fifteen games and throw two hundred plus innings any day. He is like a Greg Maddux like pitcher, he's not going to blow anyone away, but when he is hitting his spots, he's unhittable. The difference is that Maddux played on a lot better teams with the Braves then Buerhle did with the Sox.

PKalltheway
06-01-2007, 12:44 PM
I'd re-sign Buehrle in a heartbeat. Hopefully the Sox will as well. He's been the anchor of the rotation for years now. You have to re-sign him.

Chicken Dinner
06-01-2007, 01:00 PM
KW and MB said that they're not doing anything during the season so why are we talking about this in June?

Plus, if the White Sox were serious about signing MB they would of had a MB bobblehead day.

Flight #24
06-01-2007, 01:10 PM
We don't know what Mark is asking for. If he is asking for Zito money/length, then I hope we pass and either go without an ace, or find one willing to take a shorter deal. Very few of these big long term deals end up good for the teams who sign them.

Good question - not sure - but not a pitcher who wants a 7+ year deal at 15+mm per.
What's the threshhold? What if Mark says 5/$75? That's at least near market. Bottom line, unless you're willing to go to 4 or 5 years at $15-17 per, you're not even trying to resign him. Burls can almost certainly get 6/$90 ($15 per) and possibly at $16 per. So he's taking his low end market value and a shorter deal to stay with the Sox, and that's about all you can realistically ask him to do.

And "go without an ace" = rebuild. You don't win a title without strong front-end pitching. That means keeping the closest guy you have to an ace or paying one elsewhere (which means even more $$$).

At least if you keep Burls & Garland and rebuild around them, you're pretty sure you can remain competitive.

SoxxoS
06-01-2007, 01:12 PM
KW and MB said that they're not doing anything during the season so why are we talking about this in June?


What do you want to talk about, the ****ing team in the pennant race?

MRM
06-01-2007, 01:33 PM
No, but you wouldn't be insulting him again if they put an offer of 5/$65 on the table today. And, my guess, is that he would sign it.

Not a chance he'd sign such a deal. $13mil/yr? No agent on earth would let him sign that far under market. Zito just got 7 years at roughly $18mil per. That's the precedent for a durable lefty ace like Mark. Why on earth would Buhrle take $5mil/yr less with fewer years? 4/$65, maybe.

gobears1987
06-01-2007, 01:37 PM
Question: Team X offers Buehrle a 5 yr/$90 million contract. Do you honestly believe the Sox would be able to match this? because I sure don't think so.
I sure hope they do.

Let's just face it. Pitching is getting expensive and KW will have to start realizing that he will have to pay the high prices if he wants to keep talent. We can't let Buehrle walk. If we do, we will regret it for the next decade.

MRM
06-01-2007, 01:43 PM
I sure hope they do.

Let's just face it. Pitching is getting expensive and KW will have to start realizing that he will have to pay the high prices if he wants to keep talent. We can't let Buehrle walk. If we do, we will regret it for the next decade.

The budget doesn't increase just because you throw a ton of money at MB. The more you give him the less you have to spend on other players.

champagne030
06-01-2007, 01:47 PM
Not a chance he'd sign such a deal. $13mil/yr? No agent on earth would let him sign that far under market. Zito just got 7 years at roughly $18mil per. That's the precedent for a durable lefty ace like Mark. Why on earth would Buhrle take $5mil/yr less with fewer years? 4/$65, maybe.

The bidding does not start at $126M for a durable lefty "ace".

mccoydp
06-01-2007, 01:52 PM
Should the Sox re-sign Mark? Absolutely.

Will they? Probably not.

Just my hunch...

whitesoxfan
06-01-2007, 01:54 PM
I'd love to have Buehrle back in 08 and beyond. Guy's a horse. But here's the dilmena that Kenny is facing.

If he keeps Buehrle for the rest of the year, he is going to have to assume that teams like the Yankees and others will get involved, meaning the price is going to be pretty hefty. I'm sure he already knows this, but he absolutely can not lose Buehrle for nothing. That brings up the second point. If we continue to free fall through the next month and a half, then we can trade him for some real nice prospects.

I'd rather lose Buehrle during the season so we can at least get some players of value back than lose him in the offseason and get nothing in return. I'm just hoping that Kenny has permission from JR to break the bank on him because that's what it's going to take if we're going to re-sign him.

The Dude
06-01-2007, 02:19 PM
Well if we tank this month we will have to move him by the deadline to get something in return. And there is still a chance to sign him in the off season. Although, it would probably be less likely because I can see him not being very happy about being traded. :dunno:

hawkjt
06-01-2007, 02:34 PM
I really think if the sox offered mark 75 million for 5 years he would take it.. he lives close to his missouri off-season home; he loves being a sox; the sox are going to always be competitive; and he is beloved by the fans.

what other big markets that can afford his pricetag have all of the above?

I do not see MB as a yank or met- NY is not his style and the media there is way too combative

MB is just not an east coast type of guy or west coast for that matter.. so that leaves the cubs,cards,tigers,astros, and possibly rangers as real possibilities.. I think the sox can best any of them... get him signed ,kenny.

WhiteSox5187
06-01-2007, 03:17 PM
I really think if the sox offered mark 75 million for 5 years he would take it.. he lives close to his missouri off-season home; he loves being a sox; the sox are going to always be competitive; and he is beloved by the fans.

what other big markets that can afford his pricetag have all of the above?

I do not see MB as a yank or met- NY is not his style and the media there is way too combative

MB is just not an east coast type of guy or west coast for that matter.. so that leaves the cubs,cards,tigers,astros, and possibly rangers as real possibilities.. I think the sox can best any of them... get him signed ,kenny.
I dont' think the Tigers would want him and I dont' think he'd sign with the Cubs. He grew up a Cardinals fan is played on the White Sox, it is now in his DNA to hate the Cubs. He wouldn't sign with them for all the money in the world. If he leaves, it's because he's going to the Cardinals. I really hope we re-sign him. THere is no reason we shouldn't.

itsnotrequired
06-01-2007, 03:23 PM
I dont' think the Tigers would want him and I dont' think he'd sign with the Cubs. He grew up a Cardinals fan is played on the White Sox, it is now in his DNA to hate the Cubs. He wouldn't sign with them for all the money in the world. If he leaves, it's because he's going to the Cardinals. I really hope we re-sign him. THere is no reason we shouldn't.

:rolleyes:

Get real.

ZombieRob
06-01-2007, 03:29 PM
So for this organizations future we will not play any part of dealing in the inflated free agent market? That is a load of ****. We are a top 5/6 payroll team. Ante up! Or we can be the KC Royals in 5 years.
I sorta agree with you to a point.Also alot of fans are fooled by the Sox payroll.I believe the Sox may pay about 3/4 of the so called 100 mill .I believe the Phillies and D'backs are still paying on Thome's and Javy's contracts.

soxfanreggie
06-01-2007, 03:35 PM
I would love to have MB on the Sox for the rest of his career. To do so is going to take a lot of work on the part of the White Sox. The Cards know they can have him if we don't make a move. We're going to have to break an unwritten but often spoken Sox rule on pitching contracts. If we keep this up, it won't be soon before Garland is on his way out as well. Tell Mark to name his price and negotiate from there. I trust Mark's word that he wants to stay on the Sox as long as they'll have him. If we can retain a nucleus of MB and Garland and build with guys like Danks, we could be formidable for years. Guys like Broadway and Floyd are close to the majors as well. If MB and Garland are the vets of your staff, you're also looking at a rotation that will get to spend a lot of time together.

102605
06-01-2007, 03:37 PM
I sorta agree with you to a point.Also alot of fans are fooled by the Sox payroll.I believe the Sox may pay about 3/4 of the so called 100 mill .I believe the Phillies and D'backs are still paying on Thome's and Javy's contracts.

I was just wondering about that. Does anyone know what the White Sox are acually on the books for?

The Immigrant
06-01-2007, 03:50 PM
I was just wondering about that. Does anyone know what the White Sox are acually on the books for?

Total team payroll is $108mm. Approximately $7mm of that comes from the Phillies (Thome) and another $2.5mm from the Yankees or D-Backs for Vazquez. The remaining hundo is all ours.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/chicago-white-sox.html

We have about $60mm in contracts committed for next year, and that's without:

(i) Buehrle, Dye, Iguchi and Podsednik (all FAs without options);
(ii) Uribe ($5mm option), Mackowiak ($3.25mm option), and Erstad ($3.5mm option);
(iii) Crede and Cintron (both arbitration eligible); and
(iv) about a dozen serfs with minimal service time.

So there is definitely some payroll flexibility for next year, in terms of having around $35mm to either re-sign or replace the above. It should be interesting.

MISoxfan
06-01-2007, 04:09 PM
i like mark as much as the next guy, but frankly- if he goes out commanding a ton of money over 5+ years, i have no problem letting him walk. i'm getting pretty tired of these "face of the franchise" arguments that i keep seeing- are we going to point to that when we realize that we're paying nearly a million dollars per win from buehrle next year, the year after, etc?

what's it going to take to re-sign him? 15m/year? that's ridiculous for a guy that's won over 16 games 1 time in his career. i'd rather wait a year and lock garland up long term.

and to further clarify- mark buehrle is not an ace, he has never been an ace, and he never will be an ace

Wins? Are you serious? The guy has 2 wins with 10 games started and a 3.66 ERA. One of those wins came from a no-hitter. Do you really think that he hasn't deserved significantly more wins in his other 9 starts than 1?

Thats basically the story of his career.

NSSoxFan
06-01-2007, 04:15 PM
I can see why KW would sign Mark and I see why he wouldn't (Danks and Gio). I would definitely love to see the former, even if we do 'overpay'.

Daver
06-01-2007, 04:25 PM
I can see why KW would sign Mark and I see why he wouldn't (Danks and Gio). I would definitely love to see the former, even if we do 'overpay'.

How is it possible to overpay a player when there is no salary cap in baseball?

NSSoxFan
06-01-2007, 04:27 PM
How is it possible to overpay a player when there is no salary cap in baseball?

That's why I wrote it as 'overpay'. I don't believe there is such a thing when you're talking about a guy like MB. And yes, obviously it's not possible to overpay a player w/o a salary cap.

ChetChat
06-01-2007, 04:38 PM
Buehrle a Yankee? Probably not. A Cub? Low probability, but hey, money talks in this game. Did you ever think Damon would join the Yankees?
Buehrle is definitely worth keeping, but given the state of this year's batting average, KW will probably go for some bats.
I'll always be a Buehrle fan!!

SoxxoS
06-01-2007, 04:53 PM
Buehrle is definitely worth keeping, but given the state of this year's batting average, KW will probably go for some bats.


And if he does that - its a huge mistake.

Even with our WHOLE team hitting like **** and Thome and Pods out - The Sox were still over .500. Its the bullpen that has cost this team probably 10 games.

That is why KW better keep spending money on pitching.

It's Dankerific
06-01-2007, 05:16 PM
'Mark' my words, if we let Beuhrle go, its gonna be Maddux replayed on the southside.

Instead of spending money on any non-Sox FA, we should spend money on our own first. At least, in the event of some horrible injury/ineffectiveness, we are paying for their past performance with OUR team, not some guy who pitched well for the D-backs or Padres.

Spend 3.5 million to pick up Mack next year? STUPID
I'd like to be in the arbitration room with Cintron..

I like Dye and Iguchi too, but Mark is OUR mark. From the beginning. You make exceptions for homegrown guys. Its not like Mark is uninsurable with his dependability. We already see he can have a good influence on our younger guys (Danks). What else does this man have to do to be worth it? Simply put, forget 3 or 4 years. Give him 5 years, 15 mill per, and let him turn THAT down.. then you can convince the fanbase you had to go in another direction.

It's Dankerific
06-01-2007, 05:16 PM
I forgot too, it was so bad form to release what Mark turned down last season. Its also stupid only to have one lowball offer and then table the discussion.

StillMissOzzie
06-01-2007, 05:21 PM
... If you kept a rotation of Buehrle at $18 million, Jon/Javy at $10-14 million, and three kids totalling $1-2 million we would be spending a reasonable amount on the rotation.

Javy is already extended through 2010 at $11.5M/year

The ball will be in Mark's court. If he wants to make the most money possible, he will end up a Met next year. If he wants to make very good money and be a Sox, he will.

If he's willing to do 4/56, then KW and JR should already have the ink dry. The question is where will he end up wanting to be - rich in Chicago, rich in St. Louis or richer elsewhere.
I think that MB wants to go through th FA process to determine his true market value. He has already said that he'll give the Sox the right to match any offer. I am afraid that they won't match any offer that goes for more than four years.

Thank you.

And there is no such thing as an inflated market, really, as a market is a perfect equilibrium of what a team will pay.

Theoretically, if Mark was offered 5 years 90 million, some team would be willing to pay him 5 years 89,999,999 million...or else that is just bad business.
I disagree. I will concede that the law of supply and demand holds, but the bidders are hardly a group of equals.
And, BTW, 89,999,999 million is a very large number. You did mean 89.999999 million, right?

No, but you wouldn't be insulting him again if they put an offer of 5/$65 on the table today. And, my guess, is that he would sign it.
5 years for an average of $13M/year? My guess is that he would not, too.

Not a chance he'd sign such a deal. $13mil/yr? No agent on earth would let him sign that far under market. Zito just got 7 years at roughly $18mil per. That's the precedent for a durable lefty ace like Mark. Why on earth would Buhrle take $5mil/yr less with fewer years? 4/$65, maybe.
Great minds think alike, MRM. That's the terms I was thinking of. The Sox should present 4 years/$65M as their last, best, and final offer. If he says no, then wish him luck and keep him for the rest of 2007 if the Sox can get back into contention, or get something back by the trade deadline if they are not.

SMO
:gulp:

sox1970
06-01-2007, 05:36 PM
'Mark' my words, if we let Buehrle go, its gonna be Maddux replayed on the southside.

No it won't. Buehrle is a #3 pitcher, a #2 on a good day. We love him as a guy, and as a solid pitcher, but Mark Buehrle is not going to win a Cy Young, and he probably won't sniff 300 wins or the Hall of Fame.

That said, I hope they keep him and Garland, and fill out the rotation with Danks, Gonzalez, and hopefully a Broadway or Russell pan out too.

Why on earth they extended Contreras, and especially Vazquez, is beyond me.

Patrick134
06-01-2007, 05:37 PM
'Mark' my words, if we let Beuhrle go, its gonna be Maddux replayed on the southside.

Instead of spending money on any non-Sox FA, we should spend money on our own first. At least, in the event of some horrible injury/ineffectiveness, we are paying for their past performance with OUR team, not some guy who pitched well for the D-backs or Padres.

Spend 3.5 million to pick up Mack next year? STUPID
I'd like to be in the arbitration room with Cintron..

I like Dye and Iguchi too, but Mark is OUR mark. From the beginning. You make exceptions for homegrown guys. Its not like Mark is uninsurable with his dependability. We already see he can have a good influence on our younger guys (Danks). What else does this man have to do to be worth it? Simply put, forget 3 or 4 years. Give him 5 years, 15 mill per, and let him turn THAT down.. then you can convince the fanbase you had to go in another direction.


It'd be nothing like "Maddux replayed". The cubs didn't have Maddux long enough to know he'd have that longevity of success. The sox know what they have , good and bad with MB. Here's a question..if the sox pay MB 16 mil a year, and then he goes out next year and pitches like he did the 2nd half of last year, how many thousand posts would there be in the "Why did we resign MB?" thread ?

NSSoxFan
06-01-2007, 05:38 PM
No it won't. Buehrle is a #3 pitcher, a #2 on a good day. We love him as a guy, and as a solid pitcher, but Mark Buehrle is not going to win a Cy Young, and he probably won't sniff 300 wins or the Hall of Fame.


:o::?:

Who was the ace from 2003-2006? And many people think, and I would agree, still is this year.

sox1970
06-01-2007, 05:40 PM
:o::?:

Who was the ace from 2003-2006? And many people think, and I would agree, still is this year.

Buehrle sucked last year.

NSSoxFan
06-01-2007, 05:41 PM
Buehrle sucked last year.

You're right. He sucks.

Daver
06-01-2007, 05:44 PM
No it won't. Buehrle is a #3 pitcher, a #2 on a good day. We love him as a guy, and as a solid pitcher, but Mark Buehrle is not going to win a Cy Young, and he probably won't sniff 300 wins or the Hall of Fame.

That said, I hope they keep him and Garland, and fill out the rotation with Danks, Gonzalez, and hopefully a Broadway or Russell pan out too.

Why on earth they extended Contreras, and especially Vazquez, is beyond me.

He's a lefty that doesn't abuse his arm, and still gets hitters out, and he has very good mechanics, he could easily pitch another 14 years if he chose to keep himself in the shape to do that. I think he could pick up 200 wins in 14 years.

sox1970
06-01-2007, 05:45 PM
You're right. He sucks.

I hope you're not trying to misquote me. I said he sucked last year. He was brutal in the second half. I love the guy. I hope he stays here his whole career. I just don't think of him as an ace. He's very good, but if you have a guy to win one game, I'm not sure Mark Buehrle is a name I think of right away.

NSSoxFan
06-01-2007, 05:46 PM
I hope you're not trying to misquote me. I said he sucked last year. He was brutal in the second half. I love the guy. I hope he stays here his whole career. I just don't think of him as an ace. He's very good, but if you have a guy to win one game, I'm not sure Mark Buehrle is a name I think of right away.

I understand what you're saying. Maybe he isn't an ace anymore, like you said, but it really doesn't matter. He is a proven left-hander who has had great success in the league. Like Daver said, he doesn't abuse his arm and can be in the league for years to come.

SoxxoS
06-01-2007, 06:08 PM
I understand what you're saying. Maybe he isn't an ace anymore, like you said, but it really doesn't matter. He is a proven left-hander who has had great success in the league. Like Daver said, he doesn't abuse his arm and can be in the league for years to come.

How many "true" aces in baseball?

Webb - MAYBE
Peavy - Check.
Pedro - Hurt
Zambrano? HAHAHAHA
Zito? Another laugh
John Maine?
Josh Beckett?


Seriously. How many are aces anymore? Thats the point.

And Mark is the Sox "Ace." I guarantee if all starters were rested and we had to win one game, he is starting it.

WhiteSox5187
06-01-2007, 06:14 PM
:rolleyes:

Get real.
I just think Buerhle's the type of guy who would say "Uh, no," to Cubs money. Mariano Rivera has said that he would never ever play for the Red Sox and while I doubt that Buerhle would ever say something like that, I don't think he would WANT to be on that team. I really entruly think that it's between us and the Cardinals.

The Immigrant
06-01-2007, 06:15 PM
How many "true" aces in baseball?

Add Santana, Sabathia, Haren, Carpenter, Halladay and Oswalt to your list. Harden too, if he could stay healthy.

The Immigrant
06-01-2007, 06:18 PM
I really entruly think that it's between us and the Cardinals.

You are wrong. The Cardinals have even less desire to compete in the FA market for pitchers, and their payroll constraints are much greater than ours. They committed $65 million to Carpenter and he promptly got hurt. If the Sox refuse to commit 5 years/$75 million to Mark Buehrle, there's no way in the world the Cardinals will.

Other than the stupid non-story of Mark wearing a Cardinals hat, what in the world makes people think that St. Louis is a likely destination for him?

itsnotrequired
06-01-2007, 06:22 PM
Other than the stupid non-story of Mark wearing a Cardinals hat, what in the world makes people think that St. Louis is a likely destination for him?

They are the Cubs chief rival.

:rolleyes:

SoxxoS
06-01-2007, 07:34 PM
Add Santana, Sabathia, Haren, Carpenter, Halladay and Oswalt to your list. Harden too, if he could stay healthy.

Not really

Santana was a dumb leave off of my list
Haren is this year, but doesnt have Buehrles track record.
Carpenter is out for the year
Halladay - Check
Oswalt - Check
Harden - But he CANT stay healthy, so no. That is part of the deal.
Sabathia - close

So, basically, Santana, Oswalt, Halladay, Peavy and Webb. 5 total, maybe 6 if you include Sabathia. Not that many true "aces" in baseball is the point.

NOT TO MENTION - The whole point of signing guys in free agency and whatnot is to WIN A WORLD SERIES. Mark has proven he can pitch under pressure, and that is a huge plus for me. A lot of those guys listed above have never been to the playoffs, so who knows how good they will be? You have to assume they will continue to pitch like they can, but who really knows until you get there with all that pressure?

Daver
06-01-2007, 08:06 PM
Add Santana, Sabathia, Haren, Carpenter, Halladay and Oswalt to your list. Harden too, if he could stay healthy.

How many of them have both a win and a save in the World Series?

102605
06-01-2007, 08:11 PM
How many of them have both a win and a save in the World Series?

Buehrle did not get the win in game 2. :smile:

I think a guy playing for the Cubs now did.

ode to veeck
06-01-2007, 08:19 PM
He's a lefty that doesn't abuse his arm, and still gets hitters out, and he has very good mechanics, he could easily pitch another 14 years if he chose to keep himself in the shape to do that. I think he could pick up 200 wins in 14 years.

Marc Burhle has some of the best mechanics around. When Farm and I sat in the A's diamond seats (aka A's version of scouts seats), I took my camera and took a lot of full frame pics of the pitchers' motions, something I like to do during games when in better seats. The amazing thing about all the shots I took of Marc at the same point in his delivery were they were all identical, and the only way I can tell them apart is the widely varying time stamps on the digital images on my Nikon D2X files.

A batter reading a pitcher is much like a tennis player reading the server, and the toughest guys to go up against give you the same look and motion regardless of the pitch or the serve. I think it was about a week later that Marc threw his no no.

Unblyleven Bread
06-01-2007, 08:25 PM
Thank you.

And there is no such thing as an inflated market, really, as a market is a perfect equilibrium of what a team will pay.

Theoretically, if Mark was offered 5 years 90 million, some team would be willing to pay him 5 years 89,999,999 million...or else that is just bad business.

So basically you're saying there's no such thing as bad business.

roadrunner
06-01-2007, 08:57 PM
Add Santana, Sabathia, Haren, Carpenter, Halladay and Oswalt to your list. Harden too, if he could stay healthy.

I would add D. Willis,Smoltz,Verlander,(Beckett starting to look like an ace),(Wang is an up and coming ace)

I think Buehrle is a solid pitcher and would love for the Sox to keep him - but not at any price. I would certainly pay a little extra due to the 05 and career white sox factor but Buehrle's career ERA is 3.86. I would not go so far as to impede other valuable additions. He is worth keeping but only if the price still allows the Sox to maintain a strong rotation top to bottom.

Grzegorz
06-01-2007, 10:15 PM
He's a lefty that doesn't abuse his arm, and still gets hitters out, and he has very good mechanics, he could easily pitch another 14 years if he chose to keep himself in the shape to do that. I think he could pick up 200 wins in 14 years.

Daver, that is some kind of brilliant analysis. The guy is a poor man's Greg Maddux or a Jamie Moyer type (but better).

WhiteSox5187
06-02-2007, 12:18 AM
You are wrong. The Cardinals have even less desire to compete in the FA market for pitchers, and their payroll constraints are much greater than ours. They committed $65 million to Carpenter and he promptly got hurt. If the Sox refuse to commit 5 years/$75 million to Mark Buehrle, there's no way in the world the Cardinals will.

Other than the stupid non-story of Mark wearing a Cardinals hat, what in the world makes people think that St. Louis is a likely destination for him?
He's a Cardinals fan and has said that he wants to finish his career here but if he can't, he'd love to pitch for the Cardinals.

MRM
06-02-2007, 01:03 AM
He's a Cardinals fan and has said that he wants to finish his career here but if he can't, he'd love to pitch for the Cardinals.

Actually he and his wife have both said repeatedly they do NOT want him to pitch for the Cardinals. Their home is in St. Louis and if he pitched for them he'd never get any peace. He has mused about pitching for them at the END of his career, but has made it very clear he doesn't want to pitch for them now.

WhiteSox5187
06-02-2007, 01:10 AM
Actually he and his wife have both said repeatedly they do NOT want him to pitch for the Cardinals. Their home is in St. Louis and if he pitched for them he'd never get any peace. He has mused about pitching for them at the END of his career, but has made it very clear he doesn't want to pitch for them now.
K, I remember in the 2005 WS book printed by the Tribune he was saying how he'd love to finish his career with the White Sox but if he couldn't, he'd like to pitch for the Cardinals. And I think you're right, I think he did say "Towards the end of my career."

regionsox73
06-02-2007, 01:15 AM
That works for a lot less than Mark Buehrle. Do I agree? No. But that is reality. My hope is that if they cannot re-sign him, at least get something for him in July.

SoxxoS
06-02-2007, 10:01 AM
That works for a lot less than Mark Buehrle. Do I agree? No. But that is reality. My hope is that if they cannot re-sign him, at least get something for him in July.

Are you talking about Danks? I like Danks to, but to say he will be another Buehrle is a big stretch right now...especially since it's a little nerve racking that he hasn't seen a lot of teams twice (and the two times he has got pounded, against MIN and DET, it was the second time around).