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View Full Version : Who is to Blame Poll


Viva Medias B's
05-31-2007, 10:07 PM
Who or what do you think is most responsible for the White Sox' problems this season?

chisoxfanatic
05-31-2007, 10:08 PM
Z. Everyone!

JB98
05-31-2007, 10:09 PM
Who or what do you think is most responsible for the White Sox' problems this season?

No one individual.

An overall lack of energy, enthusiasm and intensity.

Law11
05-31-2007, 10:10 PM
all of the above, plus no spark, no attitude...

QCIASOXFAN
05-31-2007, 10:14 PM
When we put up runs our starting pitching stinks. When we have great starting pitching the hitting goes ice cold. When both of this things are working our bullpen collapses. We have just looked flat since mid July last year. It didn't help having Pods go down and a host of other injuries that have taken place.

eastchicagosoxfan
05-31-2007, 10:15 PM
It ain't what you hit, but when you hit. These guys aren't having any fun right now either. It's job, but it has to be fun.

CLR01
05-31-2007, 10:17 PM
It takes an organization. They are all responsible.

Frater Perdurabo
05-31-2007, 10:21 PM
I voted for every option.

But what about blaming JR?

Isn't it time that he cells, sorry, sells, the team?

Cheap, Timid and Stupid.

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2007, 10:23 PM
Kenny is the guy who put this team together, Kenny is the guy who resigned Pods and brought in Erstad both of whom have a history of injuries...Kenny is going to be the guy I hold responsible if Buerhle walks...Kenny tinkered with this team and didn't get any of the offensive parts that we needed. He tried to fix the bullpen but a guy like Andrew Sisco isn't going to help. Last year we had a bunch of soft throwing guys who couldn't find the strike zone, this year we ahve a bunch of hard throwing guys who can't find the strike zone.

Noneck
05-31-2007, 10:23 PM
The blame starts at the very top and moves down from there.

whitesoxfan1986
05-31-2007, 10:30 PM
All of the above.

DumpJerry
05-31-2007, 10:33 PM
I voted "other"
My specification: negative WSI posters.:rolleyes:

sox1970
05-31-2007, 10:35 PM
It takes an organization. They are all responsible.

That's all that needs to be said. They won as an organization in 2005. They'll lose as an organization this year.

Dan the Man
05-31-2007, 10:39 PM
This is a no-brainer: Brian Anderson

Brian26
05-31-2007, 10:41 PM
I voted other.

No magic.

When the starting pitching is superb, there's no hitting.
When the hitting is solid, the pitching is weak.
When the starters and the offense do their job, the bullpen melts down.

Frontman
05-31-2007, 11:02 PM
I think firing Ozzie wouldn't do much to improve this team. Hell, the firing of a manager mid-season almost always leads to the team doing nothing the rest of the season.

Would you prefer KW to get rid of Ozzie and keep the team intact, or would you prefer him to move key trade possibilities like Mark, Dye, Crede; and try to make room for next year?

I'd prefer neither, but now, I have no clue what to expect out of this team anymore.

RadioheadRocks
05-31-2007, 11:05 PM
I'll take Door #3.

dcb56
05-31-2007, 11:07 PM
I voted "other"
My specification: negative WSI posters.:rolleyes:

Yes, we wouldn't want any type of serious discussion of the White Sox problems to break out on these boards, would we? Guess it's much easier to predict 95 win championship seasons, dream of our team's long gone days of glory, and call anyone who doesn't fall in line with this site's groupthink a Dark Cloud.:rolleyes:

I voted other.

No magic.

When the starting pitching is superb, there's no hitting.
When the hitting is solid, the pitching is weak.
When the starters and the offense do their job, the bullpen melts down.

What you describe is not a lack of magic, it is inconsistency, and inconsistency leads to mediocrity.

KW deserves the blame for fielding yet another team with a slow, all or nothing offense, average defense, and mediocre pitching. I love what he did in 2005, but when it comes to building a team he's sure starting to look like a one trick pony who managed to catch lightning in a bottle for one amazing season.

ondafarm
05-31-2007, 11:09 PM
Gee, let me think about this one.

Frontman
05-31-2007, 11:09 PM
I'll take Door #3.

Meaning that everything stands pat, and we HOPE for things to turn around? I was thinking that way up until Erstad's injury tonight.

Now, I have to admit, I'm thinking things look too bleak to HOPE for something to change with the team. We need something more than a timely homer or an outstanding pitching performance. No walk off bat flip from AJ or a slam from Dye is going to just make everything better.

Hell, tonight Mark threw his arm off, and minus those two homers, he didn't make a mistake all night. That was a very good pitching performance.

I don't know if this team as it stands has any faith in itself or any hope left.

Frontman
05-31-2007, 11:10 PM
Gee, let me think about this one.


Well, we already know your answer; but who exactly should take over as manager then?

Tragg
05-31-2007, 11:10 PM
If we were, say, 1 game out in May and started trading our top pitchers, that might be a white flag trade similar to THE white flag trade.

In 1997, we were in the race at the end of July; now, we're close to out of it in May. I'm okay with it because with the pitching we have, we can fix this deal.

QCIASOXFAN
05-31-2007, 11:11 PM
Without question firing Ozzie would be a huge mistake.

ondafarm
05-31-2007, 11:16 PM
Well, we already know your answer; but who exactly should take over as manager then?

I thought I've been fairly clear on that as well. Razor Shines.

rdwj
05-31-2007, 11:18 PM
Without question firing Ozzie would be a huge mistake.

:thumbsup:

Blaming Ozzie is just stupid. I'd MUCH rather see a white flag, but not yet.

rdwj
05-31-2007, 11:20 PM
I'd say the LEAST responsible is Ozzie. Kenny is next. All the others are pretty much tied

credefan24
05-31-2007, 11:21 PM
Giving up on June 1 to me seems silly. This team CAN do it.
Will they? Lets hope so.

Now c'mon you white sox, take the next 3!!

DumpJerry
05-31-2007, 11:21 PM
:thumbsup:

Blaming Ozzie is just stupid. I'd MUCH rather see a white flag, but not yet.
I did not see the game tonight (had it on the radio), but I did not hear Farmio or Singleton reporting that Ozzie ran out of the dugout, threw Erstad down to the ground and twist his ankle until Tony The Tiger cried Uncle.

Injuries are not Ozzie's fault. If Spring Training and the regular season had been injury-free, we'd be celebrating a June 1st First Place standing (no games missed for Pods, Hall, Thome, etc....)

whitesoxfan
05-31-2007, 11:22 PM
As many have said, our June slate is easy. If we're double digits out of the lead on June 20th, then we have problems and I hope we make moves to restock the farm system. We can get better value for some of our guys than pretty much any other team in the league.

Let's just wait to see how this unfolds though.

PeoriaSoxFan
05-31-2007, 11:23 PM
Without question firing Ozzie would be a huge mistake.

Right on brother. This isn't Ozzie's fault. Sure, he muffed a few games, but it is easy to 2nd guess, when a bullpen is total crap and doesn't do what they are paid to do. Ozzie has a strong track record. I just wish he would shut up and not put himself out there so much. I also hope he doesn't just quit. I would have to take a step back from my fanatic love of this team, if he were gone. I like KW too, but he is the one who needs to look in the mirror. All winter he talked up these trades for hard throwing pitchers that all had historically awful ERAs across all levels. Come on Gavin Floyd? Further, it was painfully obvious that we needed an OF or 2 and all we did was re-sign a gimpy Pods and an injury riddled Erstad. I like both those guys and don't mind the moves, but there should have been a little more done to bring in at least one quality OF besides them. I still can't believe we couldn't have gotten Rowand back as part of the Garcia trade. Anyway, I still like trader Kenny, I just hope he doesn't go white flag and misevaluate the talent he thinks he is getting this summer. Please no more hard throwing pitchers (Zumaya wannabes) who have 5+ ERAs in AAA.

There are just too many minor leaguers on this team right now in my opinion and about to be one more with Ersty going down.

Daver
05-31-2007, 11:26 PM
I thought I've been fairly clear on that as well. Razor Shines.

If Razor is the answer, the question scares the hell out of me, he had a single A team quit on him.

Tragg
05-31-2007, 11:31 PM
How strong is Ozzie's coaching staff. Baines, Shines, Cora, Walker?
What happend to Raines?

DumpJerry
05-31-2007, 11:38 PM
If Ozzie is gone (very unlikely), Joe Girardi gets my vote.

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2007, 11:42 PM
Now is no time to run up a white flag...it is time to run up a battle flag, a no mercy flag.


This team can turn it around. Kenny needs to start making some moves to help us NOW.

PKalltheway
06-01-2007, 12:31 AM
Firing Ozzie won't do anybody any good.

thomas35forever
06-01-2007, 12:36 AM
It's too soon for both of these. I might consider firing Ozzie if we fall below Kansas City, which I doubt will happen.

UserNameBlank
06-01-2007, 12:47 AM
I don't care much for Ozzie's managerial style, but he isn't the reason this team is playing like total ****.

I think before Ozzie gets the axe we need to see how he can run a team that plays the game the way he wants it played. We need a balanced offense capable of winning close games without always having to rely on the longball or a 2 out hit. This team can't push across runs when it has to and that has been the problem this year. Yeah the pen has been bad in May, but the offense has been MIA all year.

This team needs to be broken up, simple as that. I'd rather see it done now than wait until the offseason, because at least if it is done now we'd be able to get a long look at some of the players who would be coming up next year anyway.

People can talk about how it's only June and we still aren't out of it, but even if this team did make the playoffs, there is no way in hell we are going to go anywhere with this roster.

Back up the truck and tear this group apart, please.

Sargeant79
06-01-2007, 12:55 AM
Neither should be done right now. It's not early anymore, but it is still only June 1st in about 7 minutes. While the team is definitely playing like crap and some of Ozzie's decisions have been questionable, it is by no means too late to turn it around. See where they're at in a month before making any decisions like that. And once you get into the playoffs, anything can happen. It's impossible to predict virtually any team's chance for postseason success at this point. Who would have thought that the Cardinals would have been so good in the playoffs last year?

If they're still at or under .500 around July 1st, then it's time to start considering moving some players who are not in the long term plans. We're not there yet though.

ChicagoG19
06-01-2007, 01:02 AM
Does anyone realize that the team is only 4 games out of the wildcard. Sure the sox are on a losing streak but its way too early to give on the team. Wait until the all star and then lets see where we stand.

gobears1987
06-01-2007, 01:06 AM
I did not see the game tonight (had it on the radio), but I did not hear Farmio or Singleton reporting that Ozzie ran out of the dugout, threw Erstad down to the ground and twist his ankle until Tony The Tiger cried Uncle.

No, but I think I heard them say that Ozzie shot Erstad in the ankle with a .22

In all seriousness, Ozzie isn't to blame. We shouldn't wave the white flag yet, but KW should be on the phone to see what we can get in possible trades down the road for either buying or selling.

UserNameBlank
06-01-2007, 01:10 AM
Does anyone realize that the team is only 4 games out of the wildcard. Sure the sox are on a losing streak but its way too early to give on the team. Wait until the all star and then lets see where we stand.
We have too many players to shop to wait until the AS break. This team sucks. I love the White Sox and I'll always be a diehard fan, but this team sucks.

June is our easiest month of the season. The only problem is that Cleveland and Detroit don't have it much harder than we do, and I'm guessing by about the 20th or so we're at least 8-9 games out and the season is basically over.

chitownhawkfan
06-01-2007, 03:45 AM
Firing Ozzie would be a huge mistake. It would piss off a large percentage of the fans and would accomplish nothing. He is about the only person in a Sox uniform right now that doesn't suck at life (starting pitchers excluded).

Beautox
06-01-2007, 04:10 AM
If Razor is the answer, the question scares the hell out of me, he had a single A team quit on him.

Tom Kelly, he's got one more ring than ozzie :wink:

and he was the architect that rebuilt the twins in '98. He's currently a special Assistant to their GM.

Kelly knows how to gut an organization and build it from the ground up; regardless of how this season ends the sox window is rapidly closing and we're going to need a GM and Manager tandem that is keen on retooling/rebuilding. Ozzie has already shown a propensity for mishandling rookies and throwing them under the bus; and recently called out KW if he were to move some of the players at the deadline if the sox we're out of it.
The sox have had the biggest payroll in the central for some time now that is a huge asset.


from kelly's wikipedia page

Managerial style

Kelly's managerial style has been described as "even-keel," emphasizing consistent performance over the span of a season rather than flashy individual game performance. Under his and successor Gardenhire's leadership, the Twins have been widely known for playing the kind of fundamental baseball that wins ball games consistently, rather than having individual superstar players, although a number of well-known stars have emerged from the Twins organization under their leadership (most notably Kirby Puckett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirby_Puckett)).


that is who i would like to see at the helm going forward.

RedHeadPaleHoser
06-01-2007, 06:43 AM
Team Game.

Team efforts win games.

Lack of Team efforts lose games.

Every position and bench player is to blame for this. When they realize it's all in their hands to fix it, and they work together, they win.

Stupid opinion? Yes. Simple? Even more so.

southside rocks
06-01-2007, 07:55 AM
Okay, let's say that Ozzie is gone.

Everything else remains the same.

The same players -- all of whom are veterans, all of whom have been in the bigs for some time, and many of whom make way more $$$ than any manager who might be named -- will proceed to play entirely differently just because there's another guy in the manager's office??

This in spite of the fact that the players all like AND RESPECT Ozzie and know he can win -- which might not be true of anyone who comes in?

But they're going to transform themselves just because Ozzie Has Left The Clubhouse. Well, if they can do that, then it must follow that they're slacking off now, right? I mean, if they can just turn it on, then they must have at some point turned it off, right?

Which means the players should be fired, not Ozzie.

Good gosh, the old definition of panic as "the abandonment of percentage moves in the face of disaster" is really kicking in among a certain segment of White Sox fandom. :rolleyes:

Frater Perdurabo
06-01-2007, 08:15 AM
Tom Kelly, he's got one more ring than ozzie :wink:

... that is who i would like to see at the helm going forward.

If Ozzie were fired (and I'm not necessarily advocating that, I'm the one calling for PK to be traded), then Kelly would be my choice, too.

Frontman
06-01-2007, 09:12 AM
From what I've read from most of the posts here is that, its too early to call for either. I agree with both, I just wanted to see if there were Sox fans were all set to say goodbye on June 1 to this season and this team.

I think we'll pull it together. Let's just hope for a string of 7 wins to clean the palette of how bad this week's been for us Sox fans.

CPditka
06-01-2007, 09:46 AM
Joe Giardi is Ozzie II, so no.

I say keep Ozzie, if anything when we White Flag it (presummably 7/1) he can still be face of the franchise, which we'll need. Erstad pretty much sealed the fate of this season. Unless Owens can work magic, its ova.

Id say Crede & JD will/should go. Id try to reach a deal w/ MB if possible, Id hate to lose him, but he may go as well. Garland you almost have to keep. Mac, gone.

If were not 2 games out or better 7/1, hoist the flag. While you can still get value for these guys. We know KW is a preemptive striker. If hes going to do it, it will be for most firesales start.

That said, this sucks. :gulp:

veeter
06-01-2007, 10:07 AM
I'm one of the few people that actually liked the so-called 'White Flag trade'. So rebuilding would be o.k. with me. I love young players. After the '97 WFT, it took the Sox only a couple of seasons to win the divsion. They had Frank as the heart, a young Maggs, a newly aquired Paul Konerko. They took chances on C.Lee and Singleton, and they were off. But they weren't built for any sustained success because the pitching was suspect. But if they re-sign Buehrle, this staff would be very good for a long time. So a position player re-building would, could, and should work.

Thome25
06-01-2007, 12:21 PM
Who agrees with me? Who disagrees? I keep reading threads on here about how this season so far is KW's fault.......it's Ozzie's fault FIRE HIM!!

I'm surprised no one on here is blaming the absence of Man Soo Lee for the Sox dire situation.

Honestly though I can't believe my eyes when I read on here that it's Ozzie's fault...>FIRE HIM!!! and it's KW's fault.

The Sox are currently suffering from a ton of injuries and it's starting to look like an extremely freak thing. How can you blame Ozzie for that? He can't go into a gun-fight with nothing but blanks and no other ammo.

How could anyone on here blame KW? Have you seen Freddy Garcia in Philly? He isn't exactly setting the world on fire. Have you seen McCarthy in Texas? He isn't making anyone long to have him back.

KW did the best he could in a weak FA crop. As far as the leadoff position goes would you rather he overpay for a mediocre Juan Pierre? He did the best he could with that situation.

KW looked BRILLIANT in the McCarthy trade. Masset has been good and Danks is showing signs that he will be a pretty darn good pitcher.

McCarthy straight up for one of those guys would've been a pretty good deal. KW got BOTH.

It's time for Sox fans on here to stop pointing fingers and looking for someone to blame. It has been an injury and slump riddled season and we need to realize that and rally behind our team (and it's management) like the die-hard fans that we are.

What are your thoughts?

itsnotrequired
06-01-2007, 12:23 PM
I blame the cicadas.

Thome25
06-01-2007, 12:24 PM
I blame the cicadas.

LMAO....where's the teal?

itsnotrequired
06-01-2007, 12:26 PM
LMAO....where's the teal?

Teal is for the week.

IndianWhiteSox
06-01-2007, 12:29 PM
I'm one of the few people that actually liked the so-called 'White Flag trade'. So rebuilding would be o.k. with me. I love young players. After the '97 WFT, it took the Sox only a couple of seasons to win the divsion. They had Frank as the heart, a young Maggs, a newly aquired Paul Konerko. They took chances on C.Lee and Singleton, and they were off. But they weren't built for any sustained success because the pitching was suspect. But if they re-sign Buehrle, this staff would be very good for a long time. So a position player re-building would, could, and should work.

That's a big difference between the White Flag trade and what we may have this time around. As long as we have Buehrle, Garland, and Jenks, we will always be able to compete in the division. Although I really wouldn't mind if the Sox traded for a guy like Vizquel to MAYBE give the team a nice jump start to the lineup kind of like R. Alomar back in '03. Not to mention, now that we have a depleted OF, see how serious Boston wants to dump Crisp and if so maybe the Sox can get both of those guys for nothing. Just a thought........................................... ......................

Lip Man 1
06-01-2007, 12:29 PM
Thome:

Given the issues surrounding the performance of the club even before the injuries of this past week, I am hoping that enough pride and professionalism remains for the team to fight on and get a winning record for 2007.

Given the issues that would be a very good accomplishment, much as when the team had their seasons ruined by injuries in 2001 and 2004 yet they survived to post a winning mark in each of those two years.

Both Kenny and Ozzie are responsible to various degrees for what has gone on since July of 2006. (personally I think more of the 'fault' lies with Kenny.)

The injuries, pending free agent contracts and the lack of overall team speed, ability to execute fundamentals and overall age complicates and clouds the situation badly.

It's going to be an interesting next eight months before the 2008 White Sox return to spring training. What that team will look like, I don't think anyone has even a remote clue at this point in time.

Lip

SoxFan78
06-01-2007, 12:30 PM
I blame it on the US Cellular parking inforcement people. On Saturday, for the first time in 3 years, I got to Lot E 3 hours before game time to tailgate and they would not let me park in there.

Parking karma finally hits the White Sox.

soxfan13
06-01-2007, 12:39 PM
Who agrees with me? Who disagrees? I keep reading threads on here about how this season so far is KW's fault.......it's Ozzie's fault FIRE HIM!!

I'm surprised no one on here is blaming the absence of Man Soo Lee for the Sox dire situation.

Honestly though I can't believe my eyes when I read on here that it's Ozzie's fault...>FIRE HIM!!! and it's KW's fault.

The Sox are currently suffering from a ton of injuries and it's starting to look like an extremely freak thing. How can you blame Ozzie for that? He can't go into a gun-fight with nothing but blanks and no other ammo.

How could anyone on here blame KW? Have you seen Freddy Garcia in Philly? He isn't exactly setting the world on fire. Have you seen McCarthy in Texas? He isn't making anyone long to have him back.

KW did the best he could in a weak FA crop. As far as the leadoff position goes would you rather he overpay for a mediocre Juan Pierre? He did the best he could with that situation.

KW looked BRILLIANT in the McCarthy trade. Masset has been good and Danks is showing signs that he will be a pretty darn good pitcher.

McCarthy straight up for one of those guys would've been a pretty good deal. KW got BOTH.

It's time for Sox fans on here to stop pointing fingers and looking for someone to blame. It has been an injury and slump riddled season and we need to realize that and rally behind our team (and it's management) like the die-hard fans that we are.

What are your thoughts?

Actually skottyj does:tongue:

UserNameBlank
06-01-2007, 12:46 PM
Thome:

Given the issues surrounding the performance of the club even before the injuries of this past week, I am hoping that enough pride and professionalism remains for the team to fight on and get a winning record for 2007.

Given the issues that would be a very good accomplishment, much as when the team had their seasons ruined by injuries in 2001 and 2004 yet they survived to post a winning mark in each of those two years.

Both Kenny and Ozzie are responsible to various degrees for what has gone on since July of 2006. (personally I think more of the 'fault' lies with Kenny.)

The injuries, pending free agent contracts and the lack of overall team speed, ability to execute fundamentals and overall age complicates and clouds the situation badly.

It's going to be an interesting next eight months before the 2008 White Sox return to spring training. What that team will look like, I don't think anyone has even a remote clue at this point in time.

Lip
The only thing that is Kenny's fault is the fact that he put out a veteran team in '06 that was supposed to steamroll their way to back-to-back championships.

He got Thome, Vazquez, and vastly upgraded the bench not because he was thinking about '08, '09 and beyond, but because he knew there was a window for a short period of utter dominance. He didn't get another veteran bullpen guy and didn't get a backup CF, but other than that, he put out a 25-man roster better than any 25-man roster we've had here in 20 years. The team failed to get the job done though, and now people are complaining. Well, KW and JR did exactly what Sox fans thought they would never do, which is spend the money for a title. Well, now that window has closed, perhaps a year earlier than we had thought, but nonetheless it's time to go in a new direction. But don't blame Kenny, because he easily could have done exactly what the Twins have done after making the playoffs year after year, which is nothing.

voodoochile
06-01-2007, 12:49 PM
Teal is for the week.


Actually, it's a 24/7 kinda' thing around here...:tongue:

itsnotrequired
06-01-2007, 12:50 PM
Actually, it's a 24/7 kinda' thing around here...:tongue:

A handsome, golden fleece to voodoo.

minutia
06-01-2007, 12:50 PM
I think overall that everyone on the team shares some blame for the situation the Sox are in. We either have great pitching and no offensive support or sketchy pitching and good hitting. Either way there just seems to be a lack of fire out there. The Twins game on 5/29 is a prime example of this. I watched that game and thought that they just looked lethargic on the field. I really think they need a big win to start turning the ship around. Just a shot of confidence.

Lip Man 1
06-01-2007, 01:04 PM
User:

With respect as Hal pointed out last year, who put Ozzie in a situation where when Anderson fell on his face his only option was to put Mack in center?

And who took a major risk in putting together a bullpen without any real experience this season? Having to get their feet wet at the highest level without anyone the kids could learn from? Mac is the only guy in the pen with over three years in the major leagues. As has been pointed out by Flight, it's nice they all throw hard but it doesn't really matter if you can't find the plate. And do we need to even bring up the 2006 bullpen?

I'm not condemming Kenny but if both the players and Ozzie are going to be held accountable then Kenny has to as well. This was a one dimensional, station to station team with no speed and very little ability to play the game apparently the way Ozzie wants to play it.

If that's true then there's a disconnect between what the G.M. thinks the team should look like and the field manager.

Lip

tebman
06-01-2007, 01:06 PM
Thome:

Given the issues surrounding the performance of the club even before the injuries of this past week, I am hoping that enough pride and professionalism remains for the team to fight on and get a winning record for 2007.

Given the issues that would be a very good accomplishment, much as when the team had their seasons ruined by injuries in 2001 and 2004 yet they survived to post a winning mark in each of those two years.

Both Kenny and Ozzie are responsible to various degrees for what has gone on since July of 2006. (personally I think more of the 'fault' lies with Kenny.)

The injuries, pending free agent contracts and the lack of overall team speed, ability to execute fundamentals and overall age complicates and clouds the situation badly.

It's going to be an interesting next eight months before the 2008 White Sox return to spring training. What that team will look like, I don't think anyone has even a remote clue at this point in time.

Lip
I agree about July of '06 being a bend in the road. Through the '05 season until July of '06, the Sox seemed to be a well-oiled machine. Things began sputtering in July, the most obvious sign being Buehrle's pitching, but other production fell off as well.

I know that ondafarm has made Ozzie's responsibility an article of faith, and while I'm no apologist for OG, I don't see the falloff attributable to him. Ozzie's pulling or not pulling a pitcher in a game situation doesn't explain why they fall behind in the count or why their pitches stay up. KW made deals to improve the bullpen and in the long run it'll probably pay off. We sure aren't seeing it now, though. In that regard, I suppose it's KW's fault, but I don't know. :dunno:

I think the desire to find scapegoats or malfeasants is a symptom of our frustration. It makes me crazy too that they've lost five in a row. But there are a lot of gears that have to turn over a long period of time to get a baseball championship and the chances of things going wrong are just too great. The real key, like Lip said, is to see if they have enough pride and professionalism to fight on and get a winning record even in the face of bad luck, and if they fight on long enough for their luck to change back.

TDog
06-01-2007, 01:29 PM
I agree in the sense that any attempt to fix blame is misplaced. Not since 19l73 have a seen a White Sox season in which everything has gone so wrong despite the talent on the team. The list of things that have gone wrong only starts with losing three leadoff hitters to injury.

The injuries, the time lost by players due to family problems should be fatal to any team. Factor in the fact that everything seems to have gone wrong on the field. AJ hit a late game-tying home run in Anaheim and the seven-run inning against the Cubs were exceptions. For the most part, every move has gone wrong. Bring in a relief pitcher in a game situation, and the game is lost. Leave in a starter in the same situation, and the game is lost. I wouldn't second-guess the moves because I would have made the same moves in most cases, beginning with Thornton giving up the game-losing home run in the second game of the season.

I can't blame the general manager. The most a general manager can do is put together a competitive team. The Sox didn't get everything they wanted during the off-season, but teams rarely do. Dealing is a cooperative process. I don't blame Kenny Williams for preferring to have a bullpen with young "stuff" pitchers like Aardsma and Logan than with veterans like Gordon and Embree.

I can't blame the manager because for the most I think he was making the right moves while he was making them. Maybe you could blame outside forces. It's probably just a coincidence that the White Sox have underachieved since Guillen was required to undergo sensitivity training. I have no problem with my managers being crude and offensive as long as he wins. Buit I won't blame outside forces.

I do blame the players for underperforming, but I don't believe it's because they don't care. Good players have bad stretches of play just as lessor players have great games. I certainly won't blame coaches for players' failure to perform.

JB98
06-01-2007, 01:47 PM
I agree in the sense that any attempt to fix blame is misplaced. Not since 19l73 have a seen a White Sox season in which everything has gone so wrong despite the talent on the team. The list of things that have gone wrong only starts with losing three leadoff hitters to injury.

The injuries, the time lost by players due to family problems should be fatal to any team. Factor in the fact that everything seems to have gone wrong on the field. AJ hit a late game-tying home run in Anaheim and the seven-run inning against the Cubs were exceptions. For the most part, every move has gone wrong. Bring in a relief pitcher in a game situation, and the game is lost. Leave in a starter in the same situation, and the game is lost. I wouldn't second-guess the moves because I would have made the same moves in most cases, beginning with Thornton giving up the game-losing home run in the second game of the season.

I can't blame the general manager. The most a general manager can do is put together a competitive team. The Sox didn't get everything they wanted during the off-season, but teams rarely do. Dealing is a cooperative process. I don't blame Kenny Williams for preferring to have a bullpen with young "stuff" pitchers like Aardsma and Logan than with veterans like Gordon and Embree.

I can't blame the manager because for the most I think he was making the right moves while he was making them. Maybe you could blame outside forces. It's probably just a coincidence that the White Sox have underachieved since Guillen was required to undergo sensitivity training. I have no problem with my managers being crude and offensive as long as he wins. Buit I won't blame outside forces.

I do blame the players for underperforming, but I don't believe it's because they don't care. Good players have bad stretches of play just as lessor players have great games. I certainly won't blame coaches for players' failure to perform.

Well, certainly no one is going out there trying to lose a game. The players want to win every bit as badly as we do, and probably then some. But for whatever reason, I don't see the same enthusiasm or intensity level that I saw in 2005 and the first four months of 2006. Hell, I actually thought the intensity level was pretty good in 2004, even though we didn't win. We lost that year because of injuries and lack of pitching. Right now, there's just nothing but malaise. Long faces, baffled looks, frustration. I don't know how you generate enthusiasm or intensity, but the Sox need to find a way to do it.

Frontman
06-01-2007, 01:53 PM
I voted injuries, as I believe its had an effect on other choices, like the situational hitting.

When Pods and Jim both went down, it seemed to me that this team all of a sudden couldn't hit nor work the bases. They started making routine plays into errors. In short, the injury bug not only screwed the lineup, but it make the players who were still on the roster play with half a heart.

I hope to God I'm wrong, as it meant this team isn't the team I thought it was in 2005, and it was lucky, but wasn't good.

ws05champs
06-01-2007, 05:17 PM
And who took a major risk in putting together a bullpen without any real experience this season? Having to get their feet wet at the highest level without anyone the kids could learn from? Mac is the only guy in the pen with over three years in the major leagues. As has been pointed out by Flight, it's nice they all throw hard but it doesn't really matter if you can't find the plate. And do we need to even bring up the 2006 bullpen?


Good point about the bullpen and lack of experience. Injuries also have played a major roll. As far as the situational hitting, this is essentially still the team that won the World Series in 2005 with the exception of centerfield and an upgrade at DH. I feel it is a lack of focus, concentration and drive as to why the position players aren't contributing the way they should. There is something that is preventing them from playing the way they should. What to do about it is the million dollar question. Perhaps Ozzie has something to do with it but the answer lies with the players themselves.

TDog
06-01-2007, 05:39 PM
Well, certainly no one is going out there trying to lose a game. The players want to win every bit as badly as we do, and probably then some. But for whatever reason, I don't see the same enthusiasm or intensity level that I saw in 2005 and the first four months of 2006. Hell, I actually thought the intensity level was pretty good in 2004, even though we didn't win. We lost that year because of injuries and lack of pitching. Right now, there's just nothing but malaise. Long faces, baffled looks, frustration. I don't know how you generate enthusiasm or intensity, but the Sox need to find a way to do it.

How does the intensity level you've seen correspond to Guillen's sensitivity training, and probably more to the point, the demand that Guillen be more sensitive?

wassagstdu
06-01-2007, 05:58 PM
It's probably just a coincidence that the White Sox have underachieved since Guillen was required to undergo sensitivity training.
I don't think it is a coincidence. It broke the aura of invincibility around the OG-KW alliance and started players thinking more about their own futures than before, when they had bought the team ethic. Ozzie has been a different person and that has affected the team in subtle but apparently profound ways. Both he and they are thinking more about life after Ozzie is replaced. Of course this is all guess on my part based mainly on the looks on their faces over the last year and the "performance" of the team as a team, dating precisely from that event.

Railsplitter
06-01-2007, 06:05 PM
Ozzie. Outside of Jenks, we've had no decent relievers over the long term.

JB98
06-01-2007, 06:35 PM
How does the intensity level you've seen correspond to Guillen's sensitivity training, and probably more to the point, the demand that Guillen be more sensitive?

I don't know that Guillen is more sensitive. He just isn't allowed to call people "****" anymore. Ozzie still runs his mouth and holds players accountable in the papers.

I'm not a good enough psychologist to offer any speculation as to how Ozzie's sensitivity training has affected the team performance. To me, that topic is just a bunch of hot air.

ode to veeck
06-01-2007, 09:32 PM
I unequivocally blame the dark clouds. Bad Karma goes a long way.

UserNameBlank
06-01-2007, 10:15 PM
User:

With respect as Hal pointed out last year, who put Ozzie in a situation where when Anderson fell on his face his only option was to put Mack in center?

Back up CF was a position that KW failed to address. But he did have an everyday CF out there in Anderson, and it wasn't Anderson's struggles that killed the team. It was the pitching staff as a whole.

And who took a major risk in putting together a bullpen without any real experience this season? Having to get their feet wet at the highest level without anyone the kids could learn from? Mac is the only guy in the pen with over three years in the major leagues. As has been pointed out by Flight, it's nice they all throw hard but it doesn't really matter if you can't find the plate. And do we need to even bring up the 2006 bullpen?

What's the alternative? Give out an ***load of money to the likes of Guillermo Mota, Scott Shoenweis, David Riske, Chad Bradford, Octavio Dotel, Jamie Walker, etc.? Notice we've had most of these guys before, and the ones we haven't had we don't want. Especially for that price.

Outside of Thornton and MacDougal who are 30, the "grizzled veteran" in our pen is Bobby Jenks at 26. Everyone is very young and has at least set-up man potential. I love the job KW did over the offseason with the bullpen, and I think over the next couple of years we're going to see some real dominace out there.

I'm not condemming Kenny but if both the players and Ozzie are going to be held accountable then Kenny has to as well. This was a one dimensional, station to station team with no speed and very little ability to play the game apparently the way Ozzie wants to play it.

True, and in order to fix this team it has to be blown up. Kenny thought we had one more year as serious WS contenders but apprently we do not. Besides, if he tore the team up over the offseason he'd be crucified by most Sox fans.

If that's true then there's a disconnect between what the G.M. thinks the team should look like and the field manager.

Lip

I think there's been some real difference in opinion between Ozzie and KW in certain areas, but to his credit Kenny lets Ozzie do his job. I will always side with Kenny though and if there is ever a situation where a choice has to be made between the two, sorry but I take KW over Ozzie without even thinking twice.

tick53
06-02-2007, 02:54 PM
Hitting, but according to Hawk, it's the umpiring.

soxinem1
06-03-2007, 01:37 PM
I voted other. They are not in sync. None of the cylinders are firing together. When pitching is good, it gets wasted for lack of hitting. When the hitting picks up a bit, the bullpen comes into the game with torches blazing.

Minus the starters, who have been doing the job most of the season, everyone else together have combined for a totally ****ty effort.