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Lip Man 1
05-30-2007, 11:05 PM
I didn't see this so I thought it would be worth noting.

On Chicago Tribune Live! today Ken Rosenthal was a special guest via satellite from Baltimore.

He mentioned that he put in a call to Kenny in Charlotte to talk about the Sox. He said there was no special reason for it, just that as part of his job he calls all the G.M.'s during the season to get a handle on where things are at the moment.

Apparently Kenny returned his call while he was out and told everyone what the message was.

He said, Kenny said, "I presume you wish to talk about the Chicago White Sox. I have no desire to talk at all about them except to say we are underachieving."

Rosenthal said that based on the message and the tone of the message he did not try to return the call!

He said it's obvious that Kenny is really angry right now.

Lip

SpartanSoxFan
05-30-2007, 11:07 PM
Well, good to know. Maybe he should get angry to the point of turning over some clubhouse tables, ala the Kenny Lofton/Jerry Manuel era.

chisoxmike
05-30-2007, 11:09 PM
Well, good to know. Maybe he should get angry to the point of turning over some clubhouse tables, ala the Kenny Lofton/Jerry Manuel era.

That wouldn't do anything to a team that has already won a World Series and many of the players making millions of dollars. I would take a different approach.

SpartanSoxFan
05-30-2007, 11:09 PM
That wouldn't do anything to a team that has already won a World Series and many of the players making millions of dollars. I would take a different approach.

Such as?

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2007, 11:10 PM
As well he should be! This team IS under performing and if somebody can light a fire under them and they get hot, they're gonna stay hot for a long time (oh god, we're screwed, I'm quoting Jerry Manuel!). Truth be told, I was kinda hoping that in the blow out yesterday Boof would hit AJ and a brawl would ensue and the Sox would get united and get hot like they did in 2000. Something needs to happen to get these guys pissed and soon.

IlliniSox4Life
05-30-2007, 11:12 PM
Such as?

http://www.fruit-baskets.co.uk/images_prodtype/2.jpg

Fruit Baskets!!!!!

kitekrazy
05-30-2007, 11:13 PM
Such as?

More roster changes in 2008.

chisoxmike
05-30-2007, 11:14 PM
Such as?

I really don't know. But, in my opinion, flipping tables over in the clubhouse won't motivate a veteran team. That's just me though...

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2007, 11:15 PM
I really don't know. But, in my opinion, flipping tables over in the clubhouse won't motivate a veteran team. That's just me though...
I think we oughta bring back the phrase "Win or Die Trying" every time we fail to win, we take one player and excute them. You'd see a LOT more guys hustling down to first that way.
:redneck

MySoxAreClean
05-30-2007, 11:27 PM
Maybe if they start tanking more games in the Future, Start rebuilding again, Or back up the Truck and unload, CREDE,Jd, Might go anyways. But I will still go to games anyways, Love the Churros.

getonbckthr
05-30-2007, 11:32 PM
Bring back Aaron

kitekrazy
05-30-2007, 11:33 PM
Truth be told, I was kinda hoping that in the blow out yesterday Boof would hit AJ and a brawl would ensue and the Sox would get united and get hot like they did in 2000. Something needs to happen to get these guys pissed and soon.

All that gets is fines and suspensions. This line up is full of DH's. They hit homeruns and nothing else. There's no situational hitting. They are sloooooooow on the bases. Look through the lineup and how many of those players can distract a pitcher leading off of first. You know PK and Thome aren't going to steal bases.

I doubt base running is given much attention in the minors either. There's too many players who have one strength and that is hitting the long ball but have a lot of deficits.

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2007, 11:37 PM
All that gets is fines and suspensions. This line up is full of DH's. They hit homeruns and nothing else. There's no situational hitting. They are sloooooooow on the bases. Look through the lineup and how many of those players can distract a pitcher leading off of first. You know PK and Thome aren't going to steal bases.

I doubt base running is given much attention in the minors either. There's too many players who have one strength and that is hitting the long ball but have a lot of deficits.
See, if the goal is "get 'em on, get 'em over and get 'em in" I don't mind having three guys who are capable of getting them in even if that means slowing up the line up a lot. The problem is we don't really have the right set up guys for Thome and Konerko. If Pods had stayed healthy, we'd have a different story. You have a guy like Erstad who can get on base and distract a pitcher, Pods could move him over (or get on himself and distract a pitcher) then you get three big chances to bring them in. I don't mind that. We just don't have the right table setters...yet. We can get 'em through trade or if Pods comes back completely healthy (but I'm not counting on that right now). The season isn't over. Maybe I'm just foolishly opptomistic.

DumpJerry
05-31-2007, 12:32 AM
He said it's obvious that Kenny is really angry right now.

Hey Captain Obvious, did he also report the sun rising in the East?

Bring back Aaron
Stole the words and color right out of my keyboard!

The Critic
05-31-2007, 03:08 AM
I think we oughta bring back the phrase "Win or Die Trying" every time we fail to win, we take one player and excute them. You'd see a LOT more guys hustling down to first that way.
:redneck

I'd be okay with this if the minor-league system was deeper....:D:

whitesoxfan
05-31-2007, 03:26 AM
I think we oughta bring back the phrase "Win or Die Trying" every time we fail to win, we take one player and excute them. You'd see a LOT more guys hustling down to first that way.
:redneck

I laughed :redneck

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2007, 03:37 AM
I laughed :redneck
Thank god somebody did.

Grzegorz
05-31-2007, 04:34 AM
I really don't know. But, in my opinion, flipping tables over in the clubhouse won't motivate a veteran team. That's just me though...

Baseball,

I agree with you too. Fits of anger will not motivate anyone. Target their pride; that's where to hit them. Maybe bench time, maybe demotions, something along these lines.

This team has to improve; and it starts with the players.

southside rocks
05-31-2007, 07:05 AM
I think we oughta bring back the phrase "Win or Die Trying" every time we fail to win, we take one player and excute them. You'd see a LOT more guys hustling down to first that way.
:redneck

I agree! Show these guys that there's more than one kind of 'sacrifice' in this game! :redneck

Critic's right, this means that the farm system has to be REALLY deep, though.

downstairs
05-31-2007, 07:12 AM
I'm not 100% sure it is all on the players. Williams took a big gamble on middle relief and relief pitching this offseason. Its not paying off. Nearly every one of the gambles is a bust right now.

Hitting will come around. In the meantime you need to have pitching hold the fort, as they did back in 2005. You need to have a team that can be "hitless wonders" if you will.

Viva Medias B's
05-31-2007, 07:27 AM
If we fail this season to make the playoffs, Williams should retool the team like he did before 2005.

ilsox7
05-31-2007, 08:51 AM
All that gets is fines and suspensions. This line up is full of DH's. They hit homeruns and nothing else. There's no situational hitting. They are sloooooooow on the bases. Look through the lineup and how many of those players can distract a pitcher leading off of first. You know PK and Thome aren't going to steal bases.

I doubt base running is given much attention in the minors either. There's too many players who have one strength and that is hitting the long ball but have a lot of deficits.

Currently, 6 of the 9 spots in the batting order are the same as the World Series team. The 7th spot is injured (Pods), the 8th is an upgrade over that team (Thome), and the 9th (Erstad) is pretty good at situational hitting.

eriqjaffe
05-31-2007, 08:56 AM
Such as?Trade MacDougal to somebody like Tampa Bay or Texas. Doesn't matter what we get for him, just make sure that it's made abundantly clear that if you can't win, you'll be sent somewhere that suits you better.

hose
05-31-2007, 09:21 AM
As a fan I really love Kenny's passion and can relate to it.Get mad , pissed off, get it all out of your system and then DO something to correct the problem.

The Dude
05-31-2007, 09:32 AM
That wouldn't do anything to a team that has already won a World Series and many of the players making millions of dollars. I would take a different approach.

Maybe they should take down that world series sign behind the stadium?:redneck

The Dude
05-31-2007, 09:35 AM
I really don't know. But, in my opinion, flipping tables over in the clubhouse won't motivate a veteran team. That's just me though...

Hey, congrats on High Priest status!:gulp:

Wait a minute, it still says Church Elder......:?:

Flight #24
05-31-2007, 09:43 AM
Kenny's pissed? Really? I wonder why?

Could it be because the pitchers he traded for, who to a man had histories of inconsistency and wildness, have been.....inconsistent and wild which has cost games?

Or maybe it's because his offensive "upgrades" consisted of a guy who's hitting .273 in CF but is a "grinder"?

Or could it be that he traded a decent SP for 2 guys who aren't contributing this year but might contribute in future years?

Or how about being pissed because the Sox minor league system hasn't produced much top-end talent recently, and arguably the best of the lot is over in Arizona?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's because despite his continued 5+ years of flapping his gums about playing "the right way" and executing offensively and defensively that this team and pretty much throughout the organization - they either don't, won't, or can't do it as well as most little league teams?

Kenny Williams - look in the mirror. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing that you're pissed. Talk is cheap and so far, you've proven that especially when it comes to fundamentals - talk is all you're about. ALL of the problems this team is having except possibly the struggles of the O (but not the lack of execution) come directly to your doorstep.

spiffie
05-31-2007, 10:41 AM
Or maybe it's because his offensive "upgrades" consisted of a guy who's hitting .273 in CF but is a "grinder"?
I guess I missed where we could get a 300/370/450 guy for a couple million to play center. Kenny must have been at Big Lots when all those CF's are sold at Sam's Club.

Or could it be that he traded a decent SP for 2 guys who aren't contributing this year but might contribute in future years?
Freddy Garcia: 1-4, 51 IP, 4.59 ERA, 1.43 WHIP
John Danks: 3-5, 51 IP, 4.59 ERA, 1.51 WHIP
Yup, that trade sure did kill us. If only we had Freddy, we might be at .500 right now.

Or how about being pissed because the Sox minor league system hasn't produced much top-end talent recently, and arguably the best of the lot is over in Arizona?
Judging by their current performance, the best OF our farm system has produced is in Philly. But Chris B. Young does have a lot of potential and is hitting better than Erstad. Of course, if we had him we'd have who knows who in our rotation? Of course, even with Chris hitting well this year his OPS+ is 100, right at the league average. Not quite world-beating yet, but we'll see.

Or maybe, just maybe, it's because despite his continued 5+ years of flapping his gums about playing "the right way" and executing offensively and defensively that this team and pretty much throughout the organization - they either don't, won't, or can't do it as well as most little league teams?

Kenny Williams - look in the mirror. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing that you're pissed. Talk is cheap and so far, you've proven that especially when it comes to fundamentals - talk is all you're about. ALL of the problems this team is having except possibly the struggles of the O (but not the lack of execution) come directly to your doorstep.
Here's something that I'm able to actually agree with. There seems to be no sense of fundamentals throughout the organization. Or any sense of an organizational philosophy. The Twins teach solid fundementals. The A's teach walking as much as possible. What exactly do the Sox teach? Why do our rookie hitters almost always look overmatched. I know not every rookie comes up great, but when's the last time we had a rookie come up who could even hit the league average?

crazyozzie02
05-31-2007, 11:06 AM
Freddy Garcia: 1-4, 51 IP, 4.59 ERA, 1.43 WHIP
John Danks: 3-5, 51 IP, 4.59 ERA, 1.51 WHIP
Yup, that trade sure did kill us. If only we had Freddy, we might be at .500 right now.


I think he was talking about the Freddy for Gavin/Gio.

Remember that we traded McCarthy for Danks. Thats beside the point though. What i getting me a little upset is that everytime there has been a problem recently (last year too) he has gone to the minors to get help and hasnt looked else where. That seems to be the only option with him. Sisco sucking? Lets bring up Day. MacDougal sucking. Lets bring up Vasquez. David sucking, lets bring up the guy we will draft in a couple of days. I know im being a little dramatic, but that is just the way i feel about what kenny is doing. Im not "jumping off the bandwagon mad" by all means becasue i am still holding out hope, but i cant tell you truthfully that im not a little frustrated.

spiffie
05-31-2007, 11:21 AM
I think he was talking about the Freddy for Gavin/Gio.

Remember that we traded McCarthy for Danks. Thats beside the point though. What i getting me a little upset is that everytime there has been a problem recently (last year too) he has gone to the minors to get help and hasnt looked else where. That seems to be the only option with him. Sisco sucking? Lets bring up Day. MacDougal sucking. Lets bring up Vasquez. David sucking, lets bring up the guy we will draft in a couple of days. I know im being a little dramatic, but that is just the way i feel about what kenny is doing. Im not "jumping off the bandwagon mad" by all means becasue i am still holding out hope, but i cant tell you truthfully that im not a little frustrated.
I know he was talking about Freddy being traded for Gio/Floyd. The point is that we traded Freddy, saved a chunk of cash, got two prospects, and with the trade for Danks ended up with someone throwing just as well for $10 milliion less.

Bullpen arms, really good bullpen arms, don't get traded. They just don't. Unless you massively overpay for someone who might fall apart next year. Look at MacDougal. Going into this year he looked like a stud. Now he looks like trash. How much would you have given up in the offseason after 2005 for a guy like Cliff Politte or Neal Cotts, two superb arms who were lights out in 2005? Bullpens are a crapshoot. You pick up arms you hope will do well, and roll the dice.

UserNameBlank
05-31-2007, 11:23 AM
Baseball,

I agree with you too. Fits of anger will not motivate anyone. Target their pride; that's where to hit them. Maybe bench time, maybe demotions, something along these lines.

This team has to improve; and it starts with the players.
We can't really bench 10 of our 13 position players, or 5 out of 12 members of our pitching staff.

I'm with the mass execution guy. That'll kick 'em in the ass.

crazyozzie02
05-31-2007, 11:24 AM
I know he was talking about Freddy being traded for Gio/Floyd. The point is that we traded Freddy, saved a chunk of cash, got two prospects, and with the trade for Danks ended up with someone throwing just as well for $10 milliion less.

Bullpen arms, really good bullpen arms, don't get traded. They just don't. Unless you massively overpay for someone who might fall apart next year. Look at MacDougal. Going into this year he looked like a stud. Now he looks like trash. How much would you have given up in the offseason after 2005 for a guy like Cliff Politte or Neal Cotts, two superb arms who were lights out in 2005? Bullpens are a crapshoot. You pick up arms you hope will do well, and roll the dice.

I see your point and agree with you 110%. Im saying that its not only with the bullpen that he does this. He does it with the entire team, and even though there have been some bright spot (ie sweeny), i dont think Andy Gonzales is going to do much for the team as far as wins go

spiffie
05-31-2007, 11:25 AM
I see your point and agree with you 110%. Im saying that its not only with the bullpen that he does this. He does it with the entire team, and even though there have been some bright spot (ie sweeny), i dont think Andy Gonzales is going to do much for the team as far as wins go
And he's not supposed to. Andy Gonzales is a stopgap, brought up to fill a place and maybe play a couple games due to injuries/absences. If they start depending on Andy Gonzales as an everyday player, then I'll gladly join the cry for Kenny to go out and get someone.

UserNameBlank
05-31-2007, 11:26 AM
I know he was talking about Freddy being traded for Gio/Floyd. The point is that we traded Freddy, saved a chunk of cash, got two prospects, and with the trade for Danks ended up with someone throwing just as well for $10 milliion less.

Bullpen arms, really good bullpen arms, don't get traded. They just don't. Unless you massively overpay for someone who might fall apart next year. Look at MacDougal. Going into this year he looked like a stud. Now he looks like trash. How much would you have given up in the offseason after 2005 for a guy like Cliff Politte or Neal Cotts, two superb arms who were lights out in 2005? Bullpens are a crapshoot. You pick up arms you hope will do well, and roll the dice.
That's why I think once MacDougal and Thornton get back on track we should shop them hard.

The Immigrant
05-31-2007, 11:34 AM
Bullpens are a crapshoot.

I've seen this argument repeated countless times on this site, and it's simply a load of bunk. The Angels, Twins, A's and Padres have had consistently good bullpens for years. Each of these teams has lost stud relievers to free agency but their bullpens have continued to perform. We are obviously doing something wrong.

If bullpens are such a crapshoot, how come Minnesota's has dominated our hitters for years - even though most of their bullpen roster has been turned over?

DickAllen72
05-31-2007, 11:47 AM
Currently, 6 of the 9 spots in the batting order are the same as the World Series team. The 7th spot is injured (Pods), the 8th is an upgrade over that team (Thome), and the 9th (Erstad) is pretty good at situational hitting.
They more than adequately replaced the on-field talents of Rowand and Everett, but in no way did they replace the intangibles both of them brought to the team both on and off the field. Attitude and chemistry is a big part of this game, whether stat-heads want to believe it or not.

The Sox need to bring in a spark-plug or two.

oeo
05-31-2007, 11:48 AM
That's why I think once MacDougal and Thornton get back on track we should shop them hard.

So you do think that MacDougal will get back on track...which means you must think he's pretty solid. Why would you trade that? We don't have replacements. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying that those guys in the minors can come up here and get the job done. We had guys that were doing well last year, and couldn't do it up here.

I think MacDougal will be fine. Thornton has already shown that he's fine. What a stupid move that would be to trade away a solid back end of the bullpen. A bullpen can be a crapshoot, but if you put it together with a bunch of guys with great stuff (which we have), that will not be the case. Look at the Angels and Twins, who have good bullpens year in and year out. Why? Because they put guys out there with great stuff; not guys like Cliff Politte or Boone Logan who you don't know what you're going to get from them.

Again, trading Thornton and MacDougal (very valuable arms), would be stupid.

spiffie
05-31-2007, 11:49 AM
I've seen this argument repeated countless times on this site, and it's simply a load of bunk. The Angels, Twins, A's and Padres have had consistently good bullpens for years. Each of these teams has lost stud relievers to free agency but their bullpens have continued to perform. We are obviously doing something wrong.

If bullpens are such a crapshoot, how come Minnesota's has dominated our hitters for years - even though most of their bullpen roster has been turned over?
Mostly luck. In general those are the three teams who are consistently good. Look at the rankings for AL Central teams over the last few years:
SOX: 2006-10th, 2005-3rd 2004-8th 2003-8th
CLE: 2006-11th 2005-1st 2004-12th 2003-4th
DET: 2006-2nd 2005-7th 2004-13th 2003-10th
MIN: 2006-1st 2005-2nd 2004-5th 2003-5th
KC: 2006-14th 2005-11th 2004-10th 2003-14th

The Twins have gotten lucky with some good arms over the years. The one thing they are smart about is they want their guys to throw strikes.

tony1972
05-31-2007, 12:19 PM
He should be angry at himself..

he's the one who left the holes in this team unanswered the offseason...

Take some self-responsibility....

Flight #24
05-31-2007, 12:21 PM
I know he was talking about Freddy being traded for Gio/Floyd. The point is that we traded Freddy, saved a chunk of cash, got two prospects, and with the trade for Danks ended up with someone throwing just as well for $10 milliion less.

Bullpen arms, really good bullpen arms, don't get traded. They just don't. Unless you massively overpay for someone who might fall apart next year. Look at MacDougal. Going into this year he looked like a stud. Now he looks like trash. How much would you have given up in the offseason after 2005 for a guy like Cliff Politte or Neal Cotts, two superb arms who were lights out in 2005? Bullpens are a crapshoot. You pick up arms you hope will do well, and roll the dice.

I'm not talking about the value of Freddy as an SP for the Sox, I don't have a problem with the way their starters have pitched. I'm talking about using arguably your most valuable trading chip on something that's not helping the team this year, therefore leaving them thinner than they should be. Then getting pissed when the lack of depth costs you.

Instead of Gio/Floyd, if he'd targeted a reliable MR, I have to think he could have gotten one. Or a solid OF, maybe a Delucci type. Or hell - if you figured Anderson wasn't ready, go get Rowand for Freddy instead, giving you 4 legit OFs in case Podsednik struggled again, Erstad got hurt, etc.

But Kenny was focused on the future, which is fine. But when you focus on the future, the present gets shortchanged. Kenny's offseason left the Sox with little to no margin for error in case guys didn't succumb to the Coop magic wand or got hurt. Both have happened.

That's on him. He's the one who put the Sox in that position. If in the future, Gio, Floyd, etc are dominant, that's great. But at this point - that's still something of a crapshoot and the present is full of holes.

What's really annoying thought is that he's getting pissed about this all the time when it's 100% his doing. When you bring in a dog off the street, if you get fleas in your house, you don't blame the dog.

oeo
05-31-2007, 12:25 PM
I'm not talking about the value of Freddy as an SP for the Sox, I don't have a problem with the way their starters have pitched. I'm talking about using arguably your most valuable trading chip on something that's not helping the team this year, therefore leaving them thinner than they should be. Then getting pissed when the lack of depth costs you.

Instead of Gio/Floyd, if he'd targeted a reliable MR, I have to think he could have gotten one. Or a solid OF, maybe a Delucci type. Or hell - if you figured Anderson wasn't ready, go get Rowand for Freddy instead, giving you 4 legit OFs in case Podsednik struggled again, Erstad got hurt, etc.

But Kenny was focused on the future, which is fine. But when you focus on the future, the present gets shortchanged. Kenny's offseason left the Sox with little to no margin for error in case guys didn't succumb to the Coop magic wand or got hurt. Both have happened.

That's on him. He's the one who put the Sox in that position. If in the future, Gio, Floyd, etc are dominant, that's great. But at this point - that's still something of a crapshoot and the present is full of holes.

What's really annoying thought is that he's getting pissed about this all the time when it's 100% his doing. When you bring in a dog off the street, if you get fleas in your house, you don't blame the dog.

He went out and did all those things in separate moves. He restructured the entire bullpen and he brought in Erstad. It's not like he traded Freddy and did nothing to improve the team today. Kenny knows what he's doing, and I don't remember one person asking for another outfielder or wishing we got a middle reliever (are you kidding me? SP for RP?) for Freddy. These are things you're looking back at and saying he should have done, yet where was it in Spring Training? Exactly...those were not holes in Spring Training. Anderson was supposed to be ready by now (still was overmatched, though), and we had Erstad as our 4th outfielder. Pods went down to an injury unrelated to his surgery, Anderson still couldn't hit major league pitching, and now we have a big hole in the outfield.

russ99
05-31-2007, 12:51 PM
He said it's obvious that Kenny is really angry right now.


Maybe he should do something about it, like give Ozzie a new righty reliever better than Dewon Day.

Flight #24
05-31-2007, 01:00 PM
He went out and did all those things in separate moves. He restructured the entire bullpen and he brought in Erstad. It's not like he traded Freddy and did nothing to improve the team today. Kenny knows what he's doing, and I don't remember one person asking for another outfielder or wishing we got a middle reliever (are you kidding me? SP for RP?) for Freddy. These are things you're looking back at and saying he should have done, yet where was it in Spring Training? Exactly...those were not holes in Spring Training. Anderson was supposed to be ready by now (still was overmatched, though), and we had Erstad as our 4th outfielder. Pods went down to an injury unrelated to his surgery, Anderson still couldn't hit major league pitching, and now we have a big hole in the outfield.

This is my point.

1) Kenny put the Sox in a position where they were relying on 2 guys to both stay healthy and be productive out of a group of Pods (injury history and performance questions), Erstad, (ditto), Anderson (performance questions). Guess what - Anderson wasn't ready and Pods got hurt.

2) Kenny went shopping for RPs and took on a series of other teams problems. That's true for Aardsma, that's true for Sisco. And he then relied on Boone Logan. All of those 3 have played consistent with their history - inconsistent and wild.

3) Kenny took the one trading chip the Sox had and used it to help the Sox in the future, not to address any of the issues in the present. That's fine for the future, but bad for now. You're right - if he'd dealt Freddy for a MR, there would have been chatter, but if that MR had been solid for the team thus far, we'd be talking about how the team was going to make the playoffs and maybe win a title this year.

Kenny tried to straddle the line of future and present with a team built for the present and a farm system that's not exactly overflowing with potential major league stars. Both of those are on his bill. He tried to cover for the latter one with moves that left the former thin and got burned. Basically, he gambled that the lack of depth wouldn't hurt and the bullpen guys would improve quickly. Like any gamble, if it pays off you look like a genious, but if it doesn't, you usually end up loooking like a chump.

But really, the bottom line to all of this is that it's ludicrous that he has the balls to get pissed and have tantrums either yelling at players, FO staff, etc. The situation the team is in is 100% his doing, and it's not like the guys who are struggling in the 'pen were coming off of stellar years - he went and got guys who were cheap. But it looks like they might have been cheap for a reason.

Flight #24
05-31-2007, 01:05 PM
He went out and did all those things in separate moves. He restructured the entire bullpen and he brought in Erstad. It's not like he traded Freddy and did nothing to improve the team today.

By the way, IMO Kenny was looking to the future for his bullpen as well. I do believe that Aardsma, Sisco, etc will be decent or better major league pitchers. But they're going to struggle this year as they adapt to what the Sox want them to do. The problem is that Kenny didn't bring one of them in as the last guy in the 'pen, he brought them in in a situation where there are 3 of them aand they have to get meaningful outs right away. And that's costing the team this year.

The Sox may well be better in the 'pen next year because of Kenny's moved. The problem is that by then where will Buehrle & Dye be and how effective will Thome & Erstad be?

nevr say dye sox
05-31-2007, 01:11 PM
Spiffe I find it really hard for a team like the Twins to be lucky when the skill level of their bullpen is better than ours year after year. When luck continues into consecutive years or for a long period of time, it is no longer luck. What is lucky is that Hermenson, Cotts, Poliette, and Jenks pitched as well as they did in 05'. See the difference, happened one year and we have not been able to duplicate it.

When you have a small market concept like the Sox, it is imparative you build a solid base in the minors. This just isn't happening, and we're reluctant to spend big money on good soild FA. So what you get stuck with are KC's garbage, and the Cub's garbage.

KW's arrogant attitude that he isn't going to over spend on FA's, and his know all attitude has himself only to be angry with. He was not willing to replace the damaged parts in the off season and were left with the team we have! We had a hole in LF before spring training when he knew Pods needed surgery. Our short stop has never been a good hitter, and he was reluctant to spend what Texas wanted for Young. We knew Crede had a bad back, we probably all knew Dye was not going to duplicate last years numbers. Thome is an accident waiting to happen, I guess I'm confused what KW's angry about.

oeo
05-31-2007, 01:18 PM
This is my point.

1) Kenny put the Sox in a position where they were relying on 2 guys to both stay healthy and be productive out of a group of Pods (injury history and performance questions), Erstad, (ditto), Anderson (performance questions). Guess what - Anderson wasn't ready and Pods got hurt.

Again; you wanted him to stockpile outfielders? Please tell me this is how you felt in Spring Training, because I'd be willing to bet it is not.

2) Kenny went shopping for RPs and took on a series of other teams problems. That's true for Aardsma, that's true for Sisco. And he then relied on Boone Logan. All of those 3 have played consistent with their history - inconsistent and wild.How did he build our 2005 championship squad? He went after other teams' problems. He could do this and develop guys like Aardsma or Sisco, or go out and pay out of his ass (like the Orioles did and are currently not seeing the results). I like his method better; I'd rather we spend money elsewhere than on relief pitchers.

3) Kenny took the one trading chip the Sox had and used it to help the Sox in the future, not to address any of the issues in the present. That's fine for the future, but bad for now. You're right - if he'd dealt Freddy for a MR, there would have been chatter, but if that MR had been solid for the team thus far, we'd be talking about how the team was going to make the playoffs and maybe win a title this year. Because, again, he went out and already made those changes that you think (now, at least) should have been made. He didn't trade Freddy for the future and then ignore the bullpen problem. You're making this an issue because (so far) the bullpen hasn't worked out.

Kenny tried to straddle the line of future and present with a team built for the present and a farm system that's not exactly overflowing with potential major league stars. Both of those are on his bill. He tried to cover for the latter one with moves that left the former thin and got burned. Basically, he gambled that the lack of depth wouldn't hurt and the bullpen guys would improve quickly. Like any gamble, if it pays off you look like a genious, but if it doesn't, you usually end up loooking like a chump.This is ridiculous; Kenny should not have gone out and stockpiled outfielders, and you know it. Maybe it looks like a good idea now, but back in the offseason it would have been stupid. You're telling me back in March, you wish we had Aaron Rowand to go with Pods, Erstad, Anderson, and Dye?

But really, the bottom line to all of this is that it's ludicrous that he has the balls to get pissed and have tantrums either yelling at players, FO staff, etc. The situation the team is in is 100% his doing, and it's not like the guys who are struggling in the 'pen were coming off of stellar years - he went and got guys who were cheap. But it looks like they might have been cheap for a reason.He does have the right to do that. They're batting near .230 as a team, his bullpen has been up and down, and now his starters aren't even doing their job. He has every right in the world to be pissed that his team is under-performing. With or without a LF'er, this team should be hitting better than it is; and this rotation should not be giving up 5-6 runs per game.

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2007, 01:24 PM
This is ridiculous; Kenny should not have gone out and stockpiled outfielders, and you know it. Maybe it looks like a good idea now, but back in the offseason it would have been stupid.
How would it have been a dumb idea to try and improve upon our two blackest offensive holes (CF, LF)?

nevr say dye sox
05-31-2007, 01:25 PM
If our minor league outfield is so good, why haven't we seen Jerry Owens? I know we have a bunch of sprinters on our team. Why don't we bring up Sweeny again? I don't think these guys are as good as you think!

oeo
05-31-2007, 01:27 PM
How would it have been a dumb idea to try and improve upon our two blackest offensive holes (CF, LF)?

Because we already had Pods, Erstad, Anderson, Dye, Terrero, and Mackowiak (you could maybe put Ozuna in there, as well). If you want to say we should have not brought Pods back, or get someone else besides Erstad, fine, but that's different. He's saying we should have stockpiled backup outfielders, so we had capable backups.

If our minor league outfield is so good, why haven't we seen Jerry Owens? I know we have a bunch of sprinters on our team. Why don't we bring up Sweeny again? I don't think these guys are as good as you think!

Because Sweeney isn't ready yet. He's 22 years old, you can't say he's not going to be good enough. He's going to be a great player, he's just overmatched right now and needs some more time.

Owens is a different story. I would like to see him, but Ozuna went down, and we needed an infielder. He's 26, and will probably be better suited as a 4th outfielder/pinch runner (but he is having a great season, so who knows?).

Lip Man 1
05-31-2007, 02:30 PM
Here's an interesting look at the 'philosophy' of the Padres in regards to their bullpen.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong (although they have been very, very good there the past few seasons) but one thing I noticed is this is 180 degrees opposite of Kenny's (grab power arms) and Ozzie's (match-up's) philosophy. (and this is not the entire story...)


"If there is an art to building a bullpen, then San Diego GM Kevin Towers is Rembrandt. So I called him Wednesday night from Wrigley Field while watching Cubs starter Ted Lilly blow the game against Florida before the bullpen, yuck, could blow it for him. They lost 9-0.

And when you hear Towers' philosophies about building a bullpen, you see a marked difference from Williams and Hendry.

Start with this: Batters are hitting .194 against San Diego's bullpen, .254 vs. the Cubs' and .273 vs. the Sox'. That puts San Diego at No. 1, the Cubs in the middle and the Sox third from the bottom. Yuck.

''My job gets real easy having a guy like Trevor Hoffman for the ninth,'' Towers said of his closer. ''Because of him, I'm only working from the eighth inning down.''

OK, fine, you're modest. How did you build that bullpen?

''In the offseason, we always focus on the bullpen first because starters wait for the market to play out and relievers sign a little quicker,'' he said. ''I like strike-throwers. I'm not a big believer that I have got to have one lefty, two lefties, three lefties to face left-handed hitters.

''There are very few situational left-handers out there and a much larger inventory of righties who can get lefties out. And if you have a lefty to face a lefty hitter, and he's not successful, then you burn two guys in one inning.''

San Diego's bullpen does not include a left-hander.

What about power pitchers for late innings?

''Velocity is overrated,'' he said. ''There are very few 93-, 94-plus [mph] guys who throw the fastball consistently over plate. I'll take command over velocity any day.''

OK, let's add this up. Forget the lefty-to-face-a-lefty-hitter thing. Don't worry about velocity. Get guys who can throw strikes. And because relievers aren't reliable from one year to the next, he said, sign them to short-term deals."

Lip

102605
05-31-2007, 02:38 PM
Here's an interesting look at the 'philosophy' of the Padres in regards to their bullpen.

What about power pitchers for late innings?

''Velocity is overrated,'' he said. ''There are very few 93-, 94-plus [mph] guys who throw the fastball consistently over plate. I'll take command over velocity any day.''

OK, let's add this up. Forget the lefty-to-face-a-lefty-hitter thing. Don't worry about velocity. Get guys who can throw strikes. And because relievers aren't reliable from one year to the next, he said, sign them to short-term deals."

Lip

San Diego has Peavy, Young, Maddux, and Wells to get to their bullpen also. Not a bad starting 4. More importantly Hoffman is one of the best in history, Linebrink throws 92 and is one of the top setup man in baseball. Their other 3 are better than any righty bullpen arm (Massett and Jenks not included) in the White Sox pen.

They flat out have one of the top rotations and bullpens in baseball. So of course they look brilliant.


Off the topic. I was listening to Padres postgame baseball yesterday and the discussion of right handed hitting outfielders that would be available for trade and of course Jermaine Dye was the hot topic. Look for rumors to surface of Dye to the Padres for some of their impressive pitching arms in AAA or AA.

Lip Man 1
05-31-2007, 02:40 PM
102:

Maddux and Wells are also older then dirt and can't consistently pitch into the 7th inning anymore. I'd say that puts more, not less strain on a bullpen don't you think?

Lip

SoxSpeed22
05-31-2007, 02:42 PM
San Diego's pen does not have strike-out pitchers, they have the ground-ball, jam pitchers. Simply put, they don't beat themselves with walks and trust their defense to get the outs.

102605
05-31-2007, 02:44 PM
102:

Maddux and Wells are also older then dirt and can't consistently pitch into the 7th inning anymore. I'd say that puts more, not less strain on a bullpen don't you think?

Lip

Maddux is still pitching pretty decent for them minus one start.

Heath Bell and Cla Merideth cover the difference.

Flight #24
05-31-2007, 02:54 PM
Again; you wanted him to stockpile outfielders? Please tell me this is how you felt in Spring Training, because I'd be willing to bet it is not.
In ST I thought the team would be SOL if Anderson didn't pan out. That's because I didn't think you could rely on Pods and because I thought Erstad would struggle to perform if he played 150+ games. I still feel the same way. Also, Kenny & Ozzie knew what Anderson's "attitude" issues were going into ST - so given Pods & Erstad's histories, you cannot rely on him. But they did and the team suffered. You either trade for or sign a more reliable guy than Erstad, or you live with having to stockpile OFs because you're relying on 2 of 3 guys who have serious question marks. (And for the record, I thought and still think that had Anderson been given more of a real shot that he'd be hitting at least .250 and playing stellar D. But I don't think he got that shot, and Kenny & Ozzie knew how little rope they were going to give him so shouldn't have relied on him.)

How did he build our 2005 championship squad? He went after other teams' problems. He could do this and develop guys like Aardsma or Sisco, or go out and pay out of his ass (like the Orioles did and are currently not seeing the results). I like his method better; I'd rather we spend money elsewhere than on relief pitchers.
You hit the nail right on the head. Kenny appears to think that because it worked with Politte, Dye, etc he can pull a rabbit out of his ass every time. He didn't take a surer route and it cost him. Honestly, I'd rather have a guy like Paul Byrd ($7M) and spend $3-5M on solid MR than Vazquez (and I'm actually a fan of Javy).

The other thing you note is that Kenny is developing pitchers. That's 100% right. He got guys to develop, which will probably help next year, but is going to hurt this year. The problem is that the rest of the team is structured to win now and next year will likely have significant changes. So really, it's not that surprising that they're struggling right now.

Because, again, he went out and already made those changes that you think (now, at least) should have been made. He didn't trade Freddy for the future and then ignore the bullpen problem. You're making this an issue because (so far) the bullpen hasn't worked out.
No, he pulled in developmental guys, and then decided to rely on 4 of them (Sisco, Aardsma, Logan, Masset) rather than using his other trading assets to get more reliable guys and developing 1-2 relief arm at a time. A team with designs on contention rarely if ever develops 4 relievers in the bullpen at once and succeed.

You're telling me back in March, you wish we had Aaron Rowand to go with Pods, Erstad, Anderson, and Dye?
Yes. I thought then that Anderson wasn't going to be long for this team. And I thought that it was a huge risk relying on both Pods & Erstad to be healthy and productive. I would have gotten another OF(Rowand's an example, Delucci would be another similar type of guy), sent Anderson to AAA, and had much more depth. Especially since I was expecting to start the season without Pods anyway.

He does have the right to do that. They're batting near .230 as a team, his bullpen has been up and down, and now his starters aren't even doing their job. He has every right in the world to be pissed that his team is under-performing. With or without a LF'er, this team should be hitting better than it is; and this rotation should not be giving up 5-6 runs per game.
Kenny relied on guys with question marks in the OF.
Kenny relied on 4 rookies, who had been inconsistent historically and that's carried through (and this is the biggest thing that's cost the team, IMO).
And most of all - Kenny & Ozzie STILL haven't instilled the fundamentals in the organization. Is there a single good bunter on the team right now? The Twins can throw up any of their guys and execute a simple bunt or fly ball. The Sox can't find a single guy to do that - but that's been their organizational "mantra" for ~5 years now? *****.

It's not like Kenny traded for David Wells and he's sucked - then you get pissed at the player. It's like the Cubs getting pissed at Wood & Prior last year - if you rely on guys who are inconsistent, you'll get inconsistent results and that's only your own fault.

Aardsma's history is to walk guys. You trade for Aardsma. Aardsma walks guys. You get pissed at him?:?:

I think Aardsma will be fine, but he and the rest are going to take time to get there, and unfortunately, that's going to cost this team a shot at the playoffs. And that was an explicit decision made by Kenny.

Flight #24
05-31-2007, 02:58 PM
Because we already had Pods, Erstad, Anderson, Dye, Terrero, and Mackowiak (you could maybe put Ozuna in there, as well). If you want to say we should have not brought Pods back, or get someone else besides Erstad, fine, but that's different. He's saying we should have stockpiled backup outfielders, so we had capable backups.



The team should only have 1-2 of the guys you list (Dye excluded). And they should be battling for at most 1 slot, not 2.

spiffie
05-31-2007, 03:08 PM
Spiffe I find it really hard for a team like the Twins to be lucky when the skill level of their bullpen is better than ours year after year. When luck continues into consecutive years or for a long period of time, it is no longer luck. What is lucky is that Hermenson, Cotts, Poliette, and Jenks pitched as well as they did in 05'. See the difference, happened one year and we have not been able to duplicate it.

Yes, a lot of it is luck. The Twins, despite having high hopes for Pat Neshek, I doubt expected him to be as solid as he has been. And as brilliant as they are at finding talent, I find it unlikely that they looked at Dennys Reyes, who at 29 had never had a season with an ERA below 3.60, and said "yup, he's going to make 66 appearances with an ERA of 0.89" They have a core of three solid bullpen arms who have stayed healthy and consistent (Nathan, Rincon, Crain) and have gotten decent to great performances from the guys they plug in from year to year. Look at a guy like J.C. Romero, who seemingly jumps from 3.50 to 5.50 or more ERA every other year. The Twins got the good years out of him, and then in 2006 when he went to LAA his ERA shoots up to 6.00. Look at someone like Matt Guerrier. Guy bounces through a couple organizations for 7 minor league seasons. They call him at age 26 and he has a couple nice years of mid-3 ERA. Now this year he is putting up a 1.91 ERA at age 29. Yes, there's some scouting in that, but part of it is rolling the dice and getting lucky that this guy finally puts it all together as he closes in on 30 and gives you a nice year out of the pen.

IndianWhiteSox
05-31-2007, 03:16 PM
Yes, a lot of it is luck. The Twins, despite having high hopes for Pat Neshek, I doubt expected him to be as solid as he has been. And as brilliant as they are at finding talent, I find it unlikely that they looked at Dennys Reyes, who at 29 had never had a season with an ERA below 3.60, and said "yup, he's going to make 66 appearances with an ERA of 0.89" They have a core of three solid bullpen arms who have stayed healthy and consistent (Nathan, Rincon, Crain) and have gotten decent to great performances from the guys they plug in from year to year. Look at a guy like J.C. Romero, who seemingly jumps from 3.50 to 5.50 or more ERA every other year. The Twins got the good years out of him, and then in 2006 when he went to LAA his ERA shoots up to 6.00. Look at someone like Matt Guerrier. Guy bounces through a couple organizations for 7 minor league seasons. They call him at age 26 and he has a couple nice years of mid-3 ERA. Now this year he is putting up a 1.91 ERA at age 29. Yes, there's some scouting in that, but part of it is rolling the dice and getting lucky that this guy finally puts it all together as he closes in on 30 and gives you a nice year out of the pen.

Or how about since hitters hate piece of **** stadiums like that, maybe those losers are just the beneficiaries of hitters who just struggle to hit in the ballpark. Unlike the Cell where it seems that anyone can turn a lazy flyball into a HR. I just wish the Cell could go back to its old dimensions, so that we really could see Ozzieball at its best.

oeo
05-31-2007, 03:38 PM
You hit the nail right on the head. Kenny appears to think that because it worked with Politte, Dye, etc he can pull a rabbit out of his ass every time. He didn't take a surer route and it cost him. Honestly, I'd rather have a guy like Paul Byrd ($7M) and spend $3-5M on solid MR than Vazquez (and I'm actually a fan of Javy).

No, this is not what he's doing. He's using his pitching coach to his advantage. Politte was 31 and had already been with team...we caught a career year; this is nothing like what Kenny did over the offseason. Dye was a proven veteran, but "injury prone", again, not comparable to the bullpen.

The other thing you note is that Kenny is developing pitchers. That's 100% right. He got guys to develop, which will probably help next year, but is going to hurt this year. The problem is that the rest of the team is structured to win now and next year will likely have significant changes. So really, it's not that surprising that they're struggling right now.

No, he pulled in developmental guys, and then decided to rely on 4 of them (Sisco, Aardsma, Logan, Masset) rather than using his other trading assets to get more reliable guys and developing 1-2 relief arm at a time. A team with designs on contention rarely if ever develops 4 relievers in the bullpen at once and succeed.

Yes. I thought then that Anderson wasn't going to be long for this team. And I thought that it was a huge risk relying on both Pods & Erstad to be healthy and productive. I would have gotten another OF(Rowand's an example, Delucci would be another similar type of guy), sent Anderson to AAA, and had much more depth. Especially since I was expecting to start the season without Pods anyway.


Kenny relied on guys with question marks in the OF.
Kenny relied on 4 rookies, who had been inconsistent historically and that's carried through (and this is the biggest thing that's cost the team, IMO).
And most of all - Kenny & Ozzie STILL haven't instilled the fundamentals in the organization. Is there a single good bunter on the team right now? The Twins can throw up any of their guys and execute a simple bunt or fly ball. The Sox can't find a single guy to do that - but that's been their organizational "mantra" for ~5 years now? *****.

It's not like Kenny traded for David Wells and he's sucked - then you get pissed at the player. It's like the Cubs getting pissed at Wood & Prior last year - if you rely on guys who are inconsistent, you'll get inconsistent results and that's only your own fault.

Aardsma's history is to walk guys. You trade for Aardsma. Aardsma walks guys. You get pissed at him?:?:

I think Aardsma will be fine, but he and the rest are going to take time to get there, and unfortunately, that's going to cost this team a shot at the playoffs. And that was an explicit decision made by Kenny.

I'm just going to say one thing about the bullpen: Kenny had a choice...he could do what he's doing now, or spend money/trade a starting pitcher for relievers. While on the latter, you may be getting a vet who is, "proven", you are also 1)paying more and 2)taking the same chance as the former because relievers are on and off from year to year. The former gives you payroll flexibility, as well as, quite possibly, the same performance.

I'm glad Kenny didn't go with your plan. If we went out and spent money on relievers, we would have to give up something else and put holes elsewhere. I like Kenny's plan, and I think it will pan out this year if you just give it some time. I don't think these guys are one year development projects, I think they're ready, they just need some experience (with the exception of Sisco).

oeo
05-31-2007, 03:41 PM
The team should only have 1-2 of the guys you list (Dye excluded). And they should be battling for at most 1 slot, not 2.

What are the two slots? I'm only seeing one...LF. Hate him all you want, but Erstad is getting the job done quite nicely. He's been great defensively, he's been quick, and out of the leadoff spot he's batting .313 (3rd best of AL leadoff hitters behind only Ichiro and Castillo) with a .357 OBP. That's much better production than we got out of the leadoff spot last year.

itsnotrequired
05-31-2007, 03:43 PM
What are the two slots? I'm only seeing one...LF. Hate him all you want, but Erstad is getting the job done quite nicely. He's been great defensively, he's been quick, and out of the leadoff spot he's batting .313 (3rd best of AL leadoff hitters behind only Ichiro and Castillo) with a .357 OBP. That's much better production than we got out of the leadoff spot last year.

...or the year before that (well, "better" anyway).

INSox56
05-31-2007, 03:54 PM
Here's an interesting look at the 'philosophy' of the Padres in regards to their bullpen.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong (although they have been very, very good there the past few seasons) but one thing I noticed is this is 180 degrees opposite of Kenny's (grab power arms) and Ozzie's (match-up's) philosophy. (and this is not the entire story...)


"If there is an art to building a bullpen, then San Diego GM Kevin Towers is Rembrandt. So I called him Wednesday night from Wrigley Field while watching Cubs starter Ted Lilly blow the game against Florida before the bullpen, yuck, could blow it for him. They lost 9-0.

And when you hear Towers' philosophies about building a bullpen, you see a marked difference from Williams and Hendry.

Start with this: Batters are hitting .194 against San Diego's bullpen, .254 vs. the Cubs' and .273 vs. the Sox'. That puts San Diego at No. 1, the Cubs in the middle and the Sox third from the bottom. Yuck.

''My job gets real easy having a guy like Trevor Hoffman for the ninth,'' Towers said of his closer. ''Because of him, I'm only working from the eighth inning down.''

OK, fine, you're modest. How did you build that bullpen?

''In the offseason, we always focus on the bullpen first because starters wait for the market to play out and relievers sign a little quicker,'' he said. ''I like strike-throwers. I'm not a big believer that I have got to have one lefty, two lefties, three lefties to face left-handed hitters.

''There are very few situational left-handers out there and a much larger inventory of righties who can get lefties out. And if you have a lefty to face a lefty hitter, and he's not successful, then you burn two guys in one inning.''

San Diego's bullpen does not include a left-hander.

What about power pitchers for late innings?

''Velocity is overrated,'' he said. ''There are very few 93-, 94-plus [mph] guys who throw the fastball consistently over plate. I'll take command over velocity any day.''

OK, let's add this up. Forget the lefty-to-face-a-lefty-hitter thing. Don't worry about velocity. Get guys who can throw strikes. And because relievers aren't reliable from one year to the next, he said, sign them to short-term deals."

LipThanks for posting...both teal and not teal. Not teal because that was very interesting, and teal because it makes me realize how very wrong our philosophy is (and sucks). I've never liked it and this read didn't change anything; Ozzie's ****ing "matchups" have always been and always be retarded IMO

Flight #24
05-31-2007, 04:13 PM
No, this is not what he's doing. He's using his pitching coach to his advantage. Politte was 31 and had already been with team...we caught a career year; this is nothing like what Kenny did over the offseason. Dye was a proven veteran, but "injury prone", again, not comparable to the bullpen.

I'm just going to say one thing about the bullpen: Kenny had a choice...he could do what he's doing now, or spend money/trade a starting pitcher for relievers. While on the latter, you may be getting a vet who is, "proven", you are also 1)paying more and 2)taking the same chance as the former because relievers are on and off from year to year. The former gives you payroll flexibility, as well as, quite possibly, the same performance.
Whether or not he's doing what he did then we can debate (but he's pulling guys who for various reasons haven't performed and expecting/hoping they do it here). The bottom line is that when you rely on multiple kids to come through simultaneously, you're usually not going to contend.

As for the cost & flexibility point - I wouldn't disagree with you, but that strategy comes at a cost: you have little to no margin for error for this year's performance. And that's costing this team bigtime. And given the division, early errors may be hard to overcome.

What are the two slots? I'm only seeing one...LF. Hate him all you want, but Erstad is getting the job done quite nicely. He's been great defensively, he's been quick, and out of the leadoff spot he's batting .313 (3rd best of AL leadoff hitters behind only Ichiro and Castillo) with a .357 OBP. That's much better production than we got out of the leadoff spot last year.
My point is that IMO you could realistically expect one of the guys to pan out. That one is Erstad. Unfortunately, that still means you have a spot in LF to worry about.

Flight #24
05-31-2007, 09:01 PM
My point is that IMO you could realistically expect one of the guys to pan out. That one is Erstad. Unfortunately, that still means you have a spot in LF to worry about.

And as I typed this, Erstad goes out. Couldn't predict that one!

Tragg
05-31-2007, 09:06 PM
Other than a few closers, few bullpen guys are trustworthy over multiple seasons. And those who are will turn it off overnight. If they were stellar pitchers, by and large, they'd be closers or starters. The Cubs get the 2 best middle relievers on the market 2 years ago - and they cost 5 Mill and they basically sucked and they sucked before they were signed.

I can't fault Williams' strategy on the pen.