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Frater Perdurabo
05-30-2007, 11:29 PM
I deliberately put this thread in WTS. We all agree Ozuna, Cintron, Mackowiak, Terrero, Gonzalez and most middle relievers are not players around which to build a team. They are complimentary but replaceable role players. They are not part of a "core." So who is your "core?" How would you construct the team?

HERE IS WHAT I'D DO; A.K.A. WHERE I GET FLAMED:
Paulie is the captain and a pro's pro. But he also represents the slow-footed, power-first mentality that many agree leads to an incosistent, one-dimenstional offense. Yet he also has trade value. I'd ask him to approve a trade to the Angels for Kotchman (replacement 1B), Shields (bullpen) and Figgins (utility and speed). Contreras also has trade value due to his contract situation, and with the right package could fetch a SS or CF upgrade. With the savings, I'd re-sign Buehrle, Iguchi, Dye, and sign Ichiro.

ROTATION: Buehrle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, Gio

PEN: Jenks, Shields, Thornton, Masset, MacDougal/Vazquez, Logan/Sisco

LINEUP: Ichiro, Iguchi, Kotchman, Thome, Dye, AJ, Crede, SS/CF upgrade, Uribe/Anderson/Sweeney

BENCH: Figgins, Erstad, Cintron, Terrero, Hall

So, if you were KW, which players would form your "core?" Which would you make avavilable to trade for other usable parts?

Lukin13
05-30-2007, 11:33 PM
I'd ask him to approve a trade to the Angels for Kotchman (replacement 1B), Shields (bullpen) and Figgins (utility and speed)
good luck getting that one done.

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2007, 11:40 PM
If I were to take over as GM tommorrow the guys I build this team around are Buerhle, Garland and Konerko. I'm not saying that I'd get rid of everybody else, but these are the guys I want on my team for a looong time. Out of our upcoming free agents, I think JD is most expendable because he looks lost in RF this year and we have some young kids who can play the outfield in the minors...I'd miss his bat though.

getonbckthr
05-31-2007, 12:06 AM
Off of the present roster with how the team is going now and free agencies in the offseason I simply make 1 final offer to Crede, Burls and Dye. They either accept or get traded. My core is Paulie, Danks, AJ, Garland, Vazquez and Jenks. Thome remains through his contract then we figure him out at that point. Contreras gone as is Iguchi. If Crede accepts great if not see ya and Fields takes over. Burls agrees great if not we have arms who are ready or even in a trade. Uribe could stay if he agrees to a low end contract. Erstad plays out his contract then he is gone. Pods is gone useless due to injury.

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2007, 12:19 AM
Off of the present roster with how the team is going now and free agencies in the offseason I simply make 1 final offer to Crede, Burls and Dye. They either accept or get traded. My core is Paulie, Danks, AJ, Garland, Vazquez and Jenks. Thome remains through his contract then we figure him out at that point. Contreras gone as is Iguchi. If Crede accepts great if not see ya and Fields takes over. Burls agrees great if not we have arms who are ready or even in a trade. Uribe could stay if he agrees to a low end contract. Erstad plays out his contract then he is gone. Pods is gone useless due to injury.
I forgot to mention AJ and Jenks. I'd keep those guys around for awhile too. Buerhle is a guy I try to lock up regardless of what it takes.

getonbckthr
05-31-2007, 12:23 AM
I forgot to mention AJ and Jenks. I'd keep those guys around for awhile too. Buerhle is a guy I try to lock up regardless of what it takes.
Not if he is looking for 14 million plus. At most I go 5/60.

JB98
05-31-2007, 12:29 AM
Players I look at as core players:

Rotation: Buerhle, Garland, Danks
Bullpen: Jenks, Thornton, Masset
Position players: AJ, Konerko

As you can see, there are very few that I wouldn't part with, if the price was right.

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2007, 12:33 AM
Not if he is looking for 14 million plus. At most I go 5/60.
I wouldn't give him a contract like Zito's, but I'd consider 14 million plus, Zito is making what, 17 million? Though your contract is reasonable too.

UserNameBlank
05-31-2007, 12:57 AM
My core:
PK, one of Buehrle/Garland (preferably both but I don't think they can both be given longterm deals without sacrificing spending in other areas), Danks, Gio, Aardsma, Jenks, AJ, Fields, Masset, probably Anderson and Sweeney

Anderson and Sweeney I'd only trade in a deal that nets an Alex Rios/Grady Sizemore type player, meaning a young CF who is terrific defensively and can hit for average and power. Rios is the only one we might have a legitimate chance at, but he'd be very expensive. Otherwise you need to keep both Anderson and Sweeney, especially Anderson (even though most people here hate him with a passion).

AJ, PK, Garland/Buehrle, and Danks are all pretty much untradeable IMO. We need these guys. AJ is the most expendable of the group, but we have no realistic options at C right now and AJ represents what this team should be about.

Fields and Gio should be untouchable unless someone offers up a young major league impact player. I don't see that happening, so they both stay.

Masset and Aardsma probably aren't worth trading. What we could get for them wouldn't be worth their potential.

Everyone else... see ya. I'd like Iguchi back since we don't have any other real options, but if he wants a three year deal or longer, we just can't do that.

UserNameBlank
05-31-2007, 01:11 AM
I deliberately put this thread in WTS. We all agree Ozuna, Cintron, Mackowiak, Terrero, Gonzalez and most middle relievers are not players around which to build a team. They are complimentary but replaceable role players. They are not part of a "core." So who is your "core?" How would you construct the team?

HERE IS WHAT I'D DO; A.K.A. WHERE I GET FLAMED:
Paulie is the captain and a pro's pro. But he also represents the slow-footed, power-first mentality that many agree leads to an incosistent, one-dimenstional offense. Yet he also has trade value. I'd ask him to approve a trade to the Angels for Kotchman (replacement 1B), Shields (bullpen) and Figgins (utility and speed). Contreras also has trade value due to his contract situation, and with the right package could fetch a SS or CF upgrade. With the savings, I'd re-sign Buehrle, Iguchi, Dye, and sign Ichiro.

ROTATION: Buehrle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, Gio

PEN: Jenks, Shields, Thornton, Masset, MacDougal/Vazquez, Logan/Sisco

LINEUP: Ichiro, Iguchi, Kotchman, Thome, Dye, AJ, Crede, SS/CF upgrade, Uribe/Anderson/Sweeney

BENCH: Figgins, Erstad, Cintron, Terrero, Hall

So, if you were KW, which players would form your "core?" Which would you make avavilable to trade for other usable parts?

The slowness of Konerko is only amplified by the suckiness of the majority of the lineup. Put a couple guys ahead of him that can get on base and use their speed and suddenly Konerko isn't such a problem on the basepaths.

BTW, maybe it's jsut me but I hate Angels trade rumors. We always seem to be giving up one All-star player for a bunch of medicore role players. Shields is a nice set-up man, but he's getting older and appraching FA. Figgins has been pretty bad the last couple of years and isn't exactly a wizard in the field. Kotchman - what's he done? He's off to a nice start but has 4 HR in 159 AB's. Sorry, but I'd like more bang for my buck. Give me one young impact guy for my 40-HR/year All-Star 1B and keep all the scraps for yourself. If you're talking about something around Jared Weaver that is one thing, but all these other guys they can keep.

Of course, someone will probably pop up with the usual Erick Aybar **** again. Yeah, let's trade our whole ****ing team for Erick Aybar and Reggie Willits. Give me a break.

IndianWhiteSox
05-31-2007, 03:41 AM
I deliberately put this thread in WTS. We all agree Ozuna, Cintron, Mackowiak, Terrero, Gonzalez and most middle relievers are not players around which to build a team. They are complimentary but replaceable role players. They are not part of a "core." So who is your "core?" How would you construct the team?

HERE IS WHAT I'D DO; A.K.A. WHERE I GET FLAMED:
Paulie is the captain and a pro's pro. But he also represents the slow-footed, power-first mentality that many agree leads to an incosistent, one-dimenstional offense. Yet he also has trade value. I'd ask him to approve a trade to the Angels for Kotchman (replacement 1B), Shields (bullpen) and Figgins (utility and speed). Contreras also has trade value due to his contract situation, and with the right package could fetch a SS or CF upgrade. With the savings, I'd re-sign Buehrle, Iguchi, Dye, and sign Ichiro.

ROTATION: Buehrle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, Gio

PEN: Jenks, Shields, Thornton, Masset, MacDougal/Vazquez, Logan/Sisco

LINEUP: Ichiro, Iguchi, Kotchman, Thome, Dye, AJ, Crede, SS/CF upgrade, Uribe/Anderson/Sweeney

BENCH: Figgins, Erstad, Cintron, Terrero, Hall

So, if you were KW, which players would form your "core?" Which would you make avavilable to trade for other usable parts?

Personally, I wouldn't be against trading PK if it means getting better players that the ones you mentioned in you're proposed trade. I really wouldn't mind a trade of PK for Santana, Figgins, McPherson, Wlits

Madvora
05-31-2007, 09:53 AM
If you can remember, catcher has been a very hard position for the Sox to finally fill. I'm glad we have AJ and he's one we need to stick with.

Buehle and Garland - definitely keep.

Opinions on Crede have definitely changed. During 2006 I wouldn't have given him up for anything, but now it's a different story. I still love the guy, but we waited all of those years for Joe to arrive, he performed (offensively) at the end of 2005 and through 2006 and that's it. There's still plenty of time left, but he's definitely not untouchable to me anymore, especially with the back questions.

TomBradley72
05-31-2007, 10:08 AM
I don't believe there is really ANY core to this team right now...and I believe we are headed towards a complete rebuild.

Paulie: slow footed, inconsistent...solid 1B..but not "untouchable"
Iguchi: seems to be aging quickly...not "untouchable"
Uribe: not "untouchable"
Crede: back problems seem to be contributing to lack of power, Fields is waiting in the wings..not "untouchable"
Podsednik/Machowiak/Erstad: average at best, not "untouchable"
Dye: aging, headed towards DH role in the next 2 years or so
Thome: slow footed, injury prone, in his final years
AJ: solid catcher, not "untouchable"
None of the starting pitchers look like a #1...all are expendable...except possibly Buehrle and/or Garland
None of the reliever look lights out...possibly stick with Thornton and Jenks.So for me: Buehrle, Garland, Danks, Jenks, Thornton + Fields and Sweeney from the minors...that's it.

munchman33
05-31-2007, 10:55 AM
To me, no one one this team is untradeable. I'd rather blow it up completely than keep some of these "core" guys at what they're gonna cost. $100 million payrolls only seem fine when your core are winners. The core of this team are obviously not.

jabrch
05-31-2007, 11:10 AM
There is no player on this team I wouldn't consider trading.

102605
05-31-2007, 11:11 AM
Rowand

Jjav829
05-31-2007, 11:33 AM
HERE IS WHAT I'D DO; A.K.A. WHERE I GET FLAMED:
Paulie is the captain and a pro's pro. But he also represents the slow-footed, power-first mentality that many agree leads to an incosistent, one-dimenstional offense. Yet he also has trade value. I'd ask him to approve a trade to the Angels for Kotchman (replacement 1B), Shields (bullpen) and Figgins (utility and speed). Contreras also has trade value due to his contract situation, and with the right package could fetch a SS or CF upgrade. With the savings, I'd re-sign Buehrle, Iguchi, Dye, and sign Ichiro.


Glad to see you're back to suggesting we trade Konerko. Things don't seem right around WSI without the occasional "trade Konerko" post from you, Frater. :D:

Like others, there is no one I'd consider untouchable, or any one player I think we have to keep and build around.

As for Konerko, who cares if he's slow? He's a first baseman - not exactly a speed position. Our lack of speed from the 1B position would rank about 150th on the list of problems with this team. That Angels trade would be awful for us. The conversation starts with Howie Kendrick or Ervin Santana.

The one player I would like to keep and build around is Buehrle. However, considering the contract Zito received, it seems like we'd have to significantly overpay Buehrle to keep him around. He might be gone at the trade deadline if we're too far back.

INSox56
05-31-2007, 11:58 AM
Players I look at as core players:

Rotation: Buerhle, Garland, Danks
Bullpen: Jenks, Thornton, Masset
Position players: AJ, Konerko

As you can see, there are very few that I wouldn't part with, if the price was right.
I agree there....there really aren't many players on this team that I wouldn't mind losing if the deal was really good. I'd like to build a core of guys, but since trading one would mean solving other areas, it's hard to pick and choose which, really. I think the only real untouchables are (from the current 25-man, not minors) Danks, AJ due to lack of backup options, Burls OR Garland, mayyyyyyyybe PK (though he'd bring in a LOT via trade...), and possibly Erstad surprisingly because he's pretty cheap, Jenks, Thornton, Masset, and that's probably it, really.

Mickster
05-31-2007, 12:32 PM
Anderson and Sweeney I'd only trade in a deal that nets an Alex Rios/Grady Sizemore type player, meaning a young CF who is terrific defensively and can hit for average and power. Rios is the only one we might have a legitimate chance at, but he'd be very expensive. Otherwise you need to keep both Anderson and Sweeney, especially Anderson (even though most people here hate him with a passion).

Trading Anderson and/or Sweeny for an Alex Rios/Grady Sizemore type of player in return? I'm sure the 29 other GM's will get right on that..... :redneck

UserNameBlank
05-31-2007, 01:18 PM
Trading Anderson and/or Sweeny for an Alex Rios/Grady Sizemore type of player in return? I'm sure the 29 other GM's will get right on that..... :redneck
I said "in a deal" for that type of player, not straight up obviously. The point is you don't deal a cheap young CF if you're not getting a better cheap young CF.

russ99
05-31-2007, 02:23 PM
My Core:
Garland, Vazquez, Danks, Jenks, Konerko, Crede, A.J.

Kids who should start soon (and not dealt for spare parts):
Broadway, Gio, Fields, Sweeney, Valido

So yeah - My 2008 Sox (way early!): SP- Garland, Vazquez, Danks, Broadway, Gio; RP: Jenks, Thornton + 3 other decent relievers; C - A.J. 1B - Konerko 2B - (acquisition) 3B - Fields/Crede SS- Valido/Cintron, LF - Pods/Erstad platoon, RF - Sweeney or (acquisition) CF: Sweeney or (acquisition) DH: Thome/Crede.

That's not to say I'm giving up on this season.

roadrunner
05-31-2007, 03:51 PM
First, I would make Buehrle a reasonable offer. If it is turned down then I would propose the following:

Buehrle, Dye, Crede, (McDougal, Uribe, Vazquez, aardsma = guys they can have too if they want)

for

ARod, Melky Cabrera

2008:
C - AJ
1B- Paulie
2B- ? (Gooch, Castillo, Marcus Giles, Loretta)
SS- ARod
3B - Fields
OF - Cabrera, Sweeney/Anderson/Owens, plus FREE AGENT (ideally one of Ichiro,Hunter,A.Jones)
DH - Thome

rotation: Garland,Danks,Contreras,Vazquez/Floyd/gio/masset/Broadway/free agent

We would have two cheap outfielders and then the third would be the free agent. Ichiro would be ideal so he could lead off but that might be cost prohibitive. Either the 2B or the free agent OF would lead off. Add depth/insurance to outfield with a midlevel guy like Cameron, Byrnes, Guillen, Erstad.

The list of possible free agent outfielders is fairly long so don't consider the options listed above as exhaustive.

Frater Perdurabo
05-31-2007, 07:17 PM
Glad to see you're back to suggesting we trade Konerko. Things don't seem right around WSI without the occasional "trade Konerko" post from you, Frater. :D:

Like others, there is no one I'd consider untouchable, or any one player I think we have to keep and build around.

As for Konerko, who cares if he's slow? He's a first baseman - not exactly a speed position. Our lack of speed from the 1B position would rank about 150th on the list of problems with this team. That Angels trade would be awful for us. The conversation starts with Howie Kendrick or Ervin Santana.

The one player I would like to keep and build around is Buehrle. However, considering the contract Zito received, it seems like we'd have to significantly overpay Buehrle to keep him around. He might be gone at the trade deadline if we're too far back.

I had a reply all ready to go, and then my computer froze. :(:

Glad you appreciate consistency. I'm sorry you missed my "trade PK" posts. :tongue:

I too think that no one is "untouchable," but I also agree that Buehrle would make the best cornerstone of the players on the current roster. I'd overpay to keep him, just because good starting pitching is the most important ingredient to a winning team.

To get that payroll flexibility, Paulie is the most logical to trade because:

1. 1B is the least important defensive position other than LF;

2. Most of the other slow guys on the team bring other advantages (Crede and Uribe are plus defenders, Thome has a great OBP, AJ works well with pitchers);

3. Paulie has great trade value to other teams (You don't have to like my proposed return package, and I'd be open to other possibilities, but consider also that the payroll savings gives the Sox flexibility to re-sign Buehrle and upgrade the roster elsewhere, much like how the Lee trade and the decision to replace Maggs with the less expensive Dye allowed the Sox to get Iguchi, El Duque and AJ);

4. What PK brings - power - the Sox already have in quantity from almost every defensive position other than CF and LF. If the Sox had a lot of table-setters and/or speed but not much power, Paulie would be far more valuable to them. Hypothetically, if the Sox had a healthy Pods in left, Juan Pierre in CF, Luis Castillo at 2B and Rafael Furcal at SS (holy schnikes, that's some serious speed!), then I'd NEVER suggest trading Paulie because losing his power really would hurt the offense.

5. Trading the captain sends a message to the rest of the team that no one is untouchable, that no one is excused from attention to detail just because they have a World Series ring or are a veteran, and that the status quo is not acceptable.

Again, too much power is not a bad thing. However, too many slow, station-to-station, high-K/pop-up/GIDP hitters lead to offensive inconsistency.

ZombieRob
05-31-2007, 11:47 PM
How many guys on the Sox roster actually have alot of value? I can only think of 1 and thats Buehrle.And only the Red Sox and maybe the Yankees will make a pitch for him this year.

ZombieRob
05-31-2007, 11:49 PM
I had a reply all ready to go, and then my computer froze. :(:

Glad you appreciate consistency. I'm sorry you missed my "trade PK" posts. :tongue:

I too think that no one is "untouchable," but I also agree that Buehrle would make the best cornerstone of the players on the current roster. I'd overpay to keep him, just because good starting pitching is the most important ingredient to a winning team.

To get that payroll flexibility, Paulie is the most logical to trade because:

1. 1B is the least important defensive position other than LF;

2. Most of the other slow guys on the team bring other advantages (Crede and Uribe are plus defenders, Thome has a great OBP, AJ works well with pitchers);

3. Paulie has great trade value to other teams (You don't have to like my proposed return package, and I'd be open to other possibilities, but consider also that the payroll savings gives the Sox flexibility to re-sign Buehrle and upgrade the roster elsewhere, much like how the Lee trade and the decision to replace Maggs with the less expensive Dye allowed the Sox to get Iguchi, El Duque and AJ);

4. What PK brings - power - the Sox already have in quantity from almost every defensive position other than CF and LF. If the Sox had a lot of table-setters and/or speed but not much power, Paulie would be far more valuable to them. Hypothetically, if the Sox had a healthy Pods in left, Juan Pierre in CF, Luis Castillo at 2B and Rafael Furcal at SS (holy schnikes, that's some serious speed!), then I'd NEVER suggest trading Paulie because losing his power really would hurt the offense.

5. Trading the captain sends a message to the rest of the team that no one is untouchable, that no one is excused from attention to detail just because they have a World Series ring or are a veteran, and that the status quo is not acceptable.

Again, too much power is not a bad thing. However, too many slow, station-to-station, high-K/pop-up/GIDP hitters lead to offensive inconsistency.
Theres scouts in baseball who question how bad Paulies hip really is.I doubt teams would offer the boat for him.Other then the Angels the O's were the only ones with a slight intrest in him.

Jjav829
06-01-2007, 12:01 AM
Theres scouts in baseball who question how bad Paulies hip really is.I doubt teams would offer the boat for him.Other then the Angels the O's were the only ones with a slight intrest in him.

Without even looking at numbers, you can tell when Konerko is struggling. Just look for posts about his hip...

Flight #24
06-01-2007, 12:06 AM
In terms of keeping players, I'm beginning to be of the mindset that you need a frontline starter, even if you have to overpay. For the Sox, that's Buehrle. It's unfortunately not Garland, Vazquez, Contreras.

I'd much rather go with Buehrle and a cast of characters at the #5 than say 2 guys like Vazquez. Especially if you get to the postseason. I know KW feels like the #5 has burned him in the past, by try living without anyone better than a slightly below average #2.

Burls-Garland-Danks form my core SPs, with a low-level vet and a rookie filling out the back end.
Unfortunately, the position players are all old or completely unproven. I'd hold onto Fields, Sweeney, Anderson, Dye, Crede and maybe Konerko (but that depends on what you can get for him). AJ - I don't know that he's going to age well.

The problem is that none of those guys are star caliber players. So you end up needing to find that difference maker externally. The hope would be that you can deal Contereas, Vazquez, etc for some better position prospects and then use some of the savings to sign someone. (And yes, I'm still looking right at ARod.)

Jjav829
06-01-2007, 12:08 AM
How many guys on the Sox roster actually have alot of value? I can only think of 1 and thats Buehrle.And only the Red Sox and maybe the Yankees will make a pitch for him this year.

Individually, I think the Sox have quite a few players with value to other teams. For whatever reason, collectively they haven't been successful this year. But come the trade deadline, if the Sox are sellers, players like Dye, Crede, Buehrle, Contreras, etc. will have value to other teams looking to add that one extra piece that improves them.

UserNameBlank
06-01-2007, 01:32 AM
The problem is that none of those guys are star caliber players. So you end up needing to find that difference maker externally. The hope would be that you can deal Contereas, Vazquez, etc for some better position prospects and then use some of the savings to sign someone. (And yes, I'm still looking right at ARod.)
The most obvious flaw in our offense has been the lack of balance. Splurging on the game's most expensive player will not fix that. This isn't like basketball or something where one dominant HOF player immediately makes a piss-poor team a playoff contender. For the $30mil/year or whatever ridiculous amount ARod will get if he opts out, I'd rather spend the extra two or three mil on Ichiro/Andruw Jones + Buehrle/Zambrano.

mjharrison72
06-01-2007, 04:10 PM
Players I look at as core players:

Rotation: Buerhle, Garland, Danks
Bullpen: Jenks, Thornton, Masset
Position players: AJ, Konerko

As you can see, there are very few that I wouldn't part with, if the price was right.
I'm right there with you at this point, except I would replace Garland with Vazquez, would be willing to trade Jenks, and might add Crede to that position players list. Sad, though.

JB98
06-01-2007, 05:51 PM
I'm right there with you at this point, except I would replace Garland with Vazquez, would be willing to trade Jenks, and might add Crede to that position players list. Sad, though.

Well, we are stuck with Vazquez. He was given a contract extension, and he is part of the core whether I like it or not.

Personally, I think he is the busted leg and weak link of our rotation, while Buerhle and Garland represent the best we have to offer.

IndianWhiteSox
06-02-2007, 10:42 AM
Well, we are stuck with Vazquez. He was given a contract extension, and he is part of the core whether I like it or not.

Personally, I think he is the busted leg and weak link of our rotation, while Buerhle and Garland represent the best we have to offer.

Not really, technically the Sox can re-sign Buerlhe and trade Vazquez to some team in dire need of a SP for a kings ransom in the off-season. Maybe it might not happen, but it's a good possibility considering the fact that every team feels that they can win the whole thing in that time period and might go nuts for the right trade.