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View Full Version : Per ESPN.com's Rumor Central: Sox shopping Buehrle, Dye?


StillMissOzzie
05-30-2007, 02:10 AM
I am not a subscriber to ESPN.com's well worth it InSider, but maybe somebody here is. There's a teaser headline for their Rumor Central that asks if the Sox are already shopping Buehrle & JD. Are their new salary demands already known to be more than the Sox will pay?

I might call it White Flag II if it weren't still so early, but that sure doesn't instill a boatload of confidence in the Sox brass thinking they can turn the 2007 season around.

SMO
:(: :angry:

DMarte708
05-30-2007, 04:03 AM
Best thing Dye and Buehrle can do, if such rumors were true, would to be produce well between now and whenever.

You figure if they do well and help us win; fine. If they do well and we're still meddling around .500 and reasonably out of contention, may as well unload them.

It'll absolutely kill us, however, if Dye and Buehrle are producing poorly. Not only will their trade value be down, but there's the possibility of missing Type-A compensation.

So much is riding on the production of those two it honestly could be a key moment in our organization's future. Just think about it. Whether it's the talent we receive or draft picks earned, Dye and Buehrle need to step up. Now.

Man Soo Lee
05-30-2007, 04:19 AM
The Rumor Central item refers to this speculation (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-070528rogers,1,5938734.column?coll=cs-columnists) from Phil Rogers:

As constructed, the White Sox aren't a playoff team...

Without depth in the farm system, the Sox may consider trading Mark Buehrle and Jermaine Dye in an attempt to rebuild on the fly. It would be a huge mistake not to re-sign Buehrle.

Kilroy
05-30-2007, 07:09 AM
Ozzie maintains that there's no such plan in today's Crud-Times. His quote is something to the effect of:

"If Kenny Williams came to me today with that as a plan, he's a loser. If I went to Kenny with that as a plan, I'm a loser. I know Kenny's not a loser and plans to do everything he can to help us win this division."

balke
05-30-2007, 09:33 AM
This article is just a writer trying to be the first to point out a trade possibility. If the Sox fall out of it these are players that will most likely be on the block. I think the Sox know they just got Thome back, the pitching SHOULD get better soon, the schedule is relatively weak from here on out, its not July yet, and Pods could be coming back soon to add a spark.

Sox aren't sellers yet.

cws05champ
05-30-2007, 09:57 AM
Agreed.... If we are 8-10 out of the wild card on July 15th, then lets start to consider it, but I still think it is a mistake to not resign Buerhle to a longer term(5yrs) deal. He is not only a good consistent pitcher, but a clubhouse leader and the leader of the pitching staff. I would rather sign Buehrle and trade Contreras or Garland to land some young talent in return.

mantis1212
05-30-2007, 11:00 AM
I find it so ridiculous that one writer in one newspaper can randomly speculate that the Sox would shop these guys, and it turns into national hot rumors on ESPN and SI.

EDIT: Not to mention people PAY for Insider to read that nonsense!

EMachine10
05-30-2007, 11:02 AM
basically says that there isn't much farm depth and they may want to rebuild on the fly.

whatever.

bryPt
05-30-2007, 12:29 PM
Stop listening to the media, they do not have one shred of credibility or brains, especially the company that felt the need to show Clemens AAA start on ALL of their chanels live last weekend. I presonally have turned off of ESPN chanels on my DirecTV, along with anything owned by the Cubune. Once you stop seeing crapola like this, your life is a much happier and relaxing.

russ99
05-30-2007, 12:35 PM
I find it so ridiculous that one writer in one newspaper can randomly speculate that the Sox would shop these guys, and it turns into national hot rumors on ESPN and SI.

EDIT: Not to mention people PAY for Insider to read that nonsense!

Geez. I've even speculated about trades on that stupid rumor website and one actually ended up as a story somewhere. That's what these so-called "writers" do. They collect information from the web and throw in a bit of weak conjecture and they call it a story.

Lazy bastards... they couldn't hold Ring Lardner's pen.

jabrch
05-30-2007, 12:51 PM
As far as I am concerned, I hope KW is listening to offers for EVERYONE. That doesn't mean I am giving up on this year - but if someone wants to blow the farm for Buehrle or JD, we'd be silly to not listen, regardless of where we are.

BS: Hello Kenny, this is Bill Stoneman. I have my eyes on Buehrle.

KW: Ok Bill - what's on your mind?

BS: I've got Wood...

KW: Me too

BS: ...and Napoli

KW: Congrats Bill - you've got yourself a lefty - Nick, Welcome to the rotation!

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2007, 01:04 PM
IF, and that is a big if, we are well out of it by July, then we might see Buerhle and JD traded. But July is a long ways off, folks. I think Reinsdorf remembers what happens with the last White Flag trade and I don't think he really wants to revisit that era.

Even if the Sox are well out of it by July, I still, personally, wouldn't trade Buerhle. Buerhle, Garland and Danks are the guys I build my rotation around. Everyone else though (except Paulie) is fair game as far as I'm concerned.

Flight #24
05-30-2007, 01:11 PM
I dn't think we'll see a firesale unless things turn further south. But I do think that so far, Kenny's strategy of "rebuilding on the fly" rather than going for it while he had Burls/Dye/Iguchi and before Paulie/Thome start to slip is to date, a failure.

I don't include the Danks deal in that because that was clearly just a "I like this guy better". But Garcia for prospects rather than focusing on a guy who was more likely to contribute in '07, rebuilding the bullpen with youngsters, etc left the team thin at a few positions (SS, CF, LF, RP). And that's cost the team.

Also, continued inability to execute, bunt, etc. But that's the story of the Sox for most of KW's tenure: talk big about that, but a complete and continuous lack of backing up the talk with action.

dwalteroo
05-30-2007, 01:12 PM
Buehrle is the pitching equivalent of Konerko - in so many ways he is the heart and soul of this team. We gotta keep Mark. As for everybody else potentially on the block, I'd listen to each and every offer.

Frontman
05-30-2007, 06:55 PM
Players on the Sox I wouldn't trade at this time:

Mark
Paulie
Jim Thome
surprisingly, Darrin Erstad
Jon Garland
Joe Crede

The rest? Thanks guys for the title two years ago. Sorry we couldn't get one with you Javy Vasquez. See you down the road.

All the pure speculation rumor-stuff is pure BS. At this time, there is still a TON of baseball to be played, I wouldn't give up just yet on anyone on this team.

Tragg
05-30-2007, 07:58 PM
As far as I am concerned, I hope KW is listening to offers for EVERYONE. That doesn't mean I am giving up on this year - but if someone wants to blow the farm for Buehrle or JD, we'd be silly to not listen, regardless of where we are.


I agree.
Most likely, what teams offer us for rents won't be much; it doesn't matter if it's now or July 15 and we're 15 games out, if they offer a pittance, why bother taking it? If they offer a lot now, go ahead and take it.

Most of the time we've dumped under Kenny, we haven't gotten squat for the players we dumped. So why bother? And frankly, we don't give up squat when we acquire in July either - there's just no market, in most cases. But you never know.

Lukin13
05-30-2007, 08:40 PM
If you don't think they are both available you are kidding yourself.

6 games out is by all means "do-able"; leapfrogging 3 teams that have all looked much better than you to date, is a longshot.

Fans will be upset, but a longshot is just that, a longshot... and KW shouldn't gamble on a longshot with the future.

If he doesn't plan on signing them to an extension before the season ends he should move them both. With a guranteed extension you might be able to get a tad bit of value; but on the open market after the season the Sox will be forced to pay top dollar for two players that are no longer perfect fits for this franchise. JD is 30/100/.280 guy but he is also an aging right handed hitter with a poor OBP, and quickly dimishing defensive ability; and Mark is a very steady pitcher but according to KW and Ozzie, you need strikeout pitchers to play in The Cell. Both are obviously great players, that any team would love to have, but if you are gonna pay top dollar, why not pay for a top notch fielder that can get on base and a power pitcher???

oeo
05-30-2007, 08:44 PM
The Rumor Central item refers to this speculation (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-070528rogers,1,5938734.column?coll=cs-columnists) from Phil Rogers:

Phil Rogers doesn't know anything about anything, what makes this case any different?

Kenny has already said that he will not have a fire sale at any point in the season, no matter what. He will only make trades that will better the team.

champagne030
05-30-2007, 08:59 PM
Phil Rogers doesn't know anything about anything, what makes this case any different?

Kenny has already said that he will not have a fire sale at any point in the season, no matter what. He will only make trades that will better the team.

His first qoutes about trades, last offseason, was that he wouldn't make a trade that wouldn't help us in 2007. He obviously changed that stance before the Garcia for Gio trade.

You've been here long enough that KW talks out both sides of his mouth. If we're tanking the season during trade time, he will/better listen to dumping people he/Jerry will not sign. AKA - a fire sale.

oeo
05-30-2007, 09:10 PM
His first qoutes about trades, last offseason, was that he wouldn't make a trade that wouldn't help us in 2007. He obviously changed that stance before the Garcia for Gio trade.

You've been here long enough that KW talks out both sides of his mouth. If we're tanking the season during trade time, he will/better listen to dumping people he/Jerry will not sign. AKA - a fire sale.

Apples and oranges...trading the washed up Garcia (who BTW is a free agent this offseason, so you knew one of him or Buehrle would be gone) for a young lefty vs. having a fire sale is not the same at all.

champagne030
05-30-2007, 09:18 PM
Apples and oranges...trading the washed up Garcia (who BTW is a free agent this offseason, so you knew one of him or Buehrle would be gone) for a young lefty vs. having a fire sale is not the same at all.


My point is that if we're in 4th place come 7/15 and their best offer to MB is going to be 3/33 and JD @ 3/18 then he should dump them for the best prospects we can get.

GAsoxfan
05-30-2007, 09:57 PM
Players on the Sox I wouldn't trade at this time:

Mark
Paulie
Jim Thome
surprisingly, Darrin Erstad
Jon Garland
Joe Crede

The rest? Thanks guys for the title two years ago. Sorry we couldn't get one with you Javy Vasquez. See you down the road.

All the pure speculation rumor-stuff is pure BS. At this time, there is still a TON of baseball to be played, I wouldn't give up just yet on anyone on this team.

I'd add Danks to the list and remove Crede. I think Crede would be a good trade candidate considering he has a year and a half until free agency and the Sox already have his replacement.

GAsoxfan
05-30-2007, 10:08 PM
I agree.
Most likely, what teams offer us for rents won't be much;


I think there will be enough teams (especially in the NL) who believe Buehrle can put them over the top that it will drive up the price.

NSSoxFan
05-30-2007, 10:12 PM
I saw KW at the Dominick's on Halsted. He was on the phone and sounded frustrated, but I did overhear the words "Dye" "Buerhle" "Iguchi" "Crede" "trade" "them" and "all".

Lip Man 1
05-30-2007, 10:31 PM
Something else to keep in mind. If the Sox deal these guys before the season ends and they become free agents, the Sox lose the draft picks they get as compensation should another team sign them.

This may be a factor in what happens especially since Kenny himself has 'warned' the scouting department twice this off season they have to start doing a better job and that he is "personally" getting involved in the draft next week.

Lip

Lukin13
05-30-2007, 10:35 PM
Something else to keep in mind. If the Sox deal these guys before the season ends and they become free agents, the Sox lose the draft picks they get as compensation should another team sign them.

This may be a factor in what happens especially since Kenny himself has 'warned' the scouting department twice this off season they have to start doing a better job and that he is "personally" getting involved in the draft next week.

Lip


How do the compensation rules work?

oeo
05-30-2007, 11:54 PM
My point is that if we're in 4th place come 7/15 and their best offer to MB is going to be 3/33 and JD @ 3/18 then he should dump them for the best prospects we can get.

I was talking about a fire sale. Trading your upcoming free agents would not be considered a fire sale. I highly doubt they've even thought about shopping either one right now. It's too early for this kind of discussion.

UserNameBlank
05-31-2007, 12:18 AM
How do the compensation rules work?
Roughly, if you have a player who reaches FA, you have I think a couple weeks after the season to negotiate a contract. After that the player is free to sign with any team he wants. There is an arbitration deadline though, and if a team offers salary arbitration to their FA the player can choose to accept and come back for another year or decline. If the player declines, compensation picks are rewarded to the offering team in the next draft depending on what type of FA said player is. Type A FA, which would be Dye and Buehrle, I think get one pick in a supplemental phase between the 1st and 2nd round, and another pick later in the draft. Maybe I'm wrong on that, if I am someone will correct me.

Sometimes this works out well and sometimes it does not. Last year Texas let a bunch of mediocre players go like Mark DeRosa and ended up owning the supplemental round of this year's draft, so I guess it depends on the FA class as far as what players are Type A and what players are Type B. Nevertheless, a repsectable year by Dye and Buehrle will make them Type A FA's since they are going to be at the top of the FA class along with Ichiro, Andruw Jones, and Carlos Zambrano.

TDog
05-31-2007, 12:28 AM
Ozzie maintains that there's no such plan in today's Crud-Times. His quote is something to the effect of:

"If Kenny Williams came to me today with that as a plan, he's a loser. If I went to Kenny with that as a plan, I'm a loser. I know Kenny's not a loser and plans to do everything he can to help us win this division."

That about sums up what trading Buehrle and Dye would mean.

It's not easy to win the World Series. There are three teams that have gone more than half a century without winning one. Even the Yankees are 0 for the millennium.

The White Sox came into the season with a plan. It obviously hasn't panned out so far. There have been injuries, players on leave, a bullpen riding high in April and shot down in May. I don't see the White Sox starting from scratch.

With the way fans punished the White Sox after the 1997 trade when the team was a game below .500 at the end of July, what this team can do at the trade deadline is limited.

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2007, 12:39 AM
If you don't think they are both available you are kidding yourself.

6 games out is by all means "do-able"; leapfrogging 3 teams that have all looked much better than you to date, is a longshot.

Fans will be upset, but a longshot is just that, a longshot... and KW shouldn't gamble on a longshot with the future.

If he doesn't plan on signing them to an extension before the season ends he should move them both. With a guranteed extension you might be able to get a tad bit of value; but on the open market after the season the Sox will be forced to pay top dollar for two players that are no longer perfect fits for this franchise. JD is 30/100/.280 guy but he is also an aging right handed hitter with a poor OBP, and quickly dimishing defensive ability; and Mark is a very steady pitcher but according to KW and Ozzie, you need strikeout pitchers to play in The Cell. Both are obviously great players, that any team would love to have, but if you are gonna pay top dollar, why not pay for a top notch fielder that can get on base and a power pitcher???
Minnesota was under .500 at this time last year and they wound up winning the division. I don't think anyone here is saying that the Sox are going to be in first place next week (in fact, I'm pretty sure that's mathmatically impossible) or even by the end of June. BUT! I would also be willing to bet you that by the end of June the Sox, Cleveland and Detroit are within two games of each other...

spiffie
05-31-2007, 01:34 AM
That about sums up what trading Buehrle and Dye would mean.

It's not easy to win the World Series. There are three teams that have gone more than half a century without winning one. Even the Yankees are 0 for the millennium.

The White Sox came into the season with a plan. It obviously hasn't panned out so far. There have been injuries, players on leave, a bullpen riding high in April and shot down in May. I don't see the White Sox starting from scratch.

With the way fans punished the White Sox after the 1997 trade when the team was a game below .500 at the end of July, what this team can do at the trade deadline is limited.
I would disagree some with this last point. I think the fanbase is more a little more savvy, and less defensive. Remember 1997 was just a few years after the strike, and then the Albert Belle signing. The organization didn't have much credit with the fans. Now it is a different story. We won it all in 2005, and still had a very good team in 2006. They've spent money and tried to put a winner out there. If the Sox were to be out of contention at the deadline and made some major deals to shed talent, I think most of the fanbase would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Sure some would storm away in a huff, but they'll come back when the Sox are winning, they always do.

Soxfanspcu11
05-31-2007, 04:28 AM
Basically, it's like this...

Either Mark or JD or BOTH are not going to be on this team in 2008. There is no doubt. If you think that they will both be back, your kidding yourself. I love them both to death, but the reality is the reality.

More than likely, it will be Mark that will not be back. Some team, probably a BUNCH of teams are going to offer him a ridiculous, Barry Zito like contract, possibly MORE!

Unless Mark has an INCREDIBLE LOVE for the Sox, there is no way that he is coming back!

JR has said many times that he will not go over 3 years with a pitcher, ESPECIALLY since the last 4 year/20 mil deal to you know who....:mad:

Anyway, this is Mark's last year in a White Sox uniform, that's just the way it is. I think that most people know that.

I just hope that we can find a way to bring JD back.

Hopefully we don't lose both of them, but the way that the market is right now, that's entirely possible.

But, if you are a MB fan, like myself, enjoy the rest of his starts. This will be the last season that you see him in a Sox uniform, so we all should enjoy it.:whiner:

bryPt
05-31-2007, 06:52 AM
Phil Rogers is single handedly the WORST columnist that I have ever read. I refuse to read anything by him, and the rest of the media for that matter, anymore. My life is much more calm now that I don't listen to ESPN radio spewing stupidity or picking up the Cubune and reading the lastest puked up lies by Rogers or watching anything by the media on television. Just watch the games, and then turn the TV off, cancel your subscription to the Cubune or ESPN the magazine, and just glue your dial to the score but only turn it on 1 minute before game time. Simple really. Blood pressure lowered 20 points.

jabrch
05-31-2007, 09:56 AM
Type A FA, which would be Dye and Buehrle, I think get one pick in a supplemental phase between the 1st and 2nd round, and another pick later in the draft. Maybe I'm wrong on that, if I am someone will correct me.


For a Type A player you get that teams 1st pick, provided it it not top 15, in which case you get their 2nd pick. Then you get a supplemental pick as well. If a team signs multiple Type A FAs, then the team with the higher ranked player gets the first pick.

jabrch
05-31-2007, 10:01 AM
I just hope that we can find a way to bring JD back.


I'm not sure about that. He's not young anymore. He's not looking like he'd be worth a 5/65 type deal that someone will give him. I'd let JD walk, take the draft compensation, and go out in the FA market. You will easily find a guy who can deliver what JD has done over his CAREER. Last year was a career year for Dye (.315/.385/.622). His 13 year career has had injuries and other obstacles, but has averaged .275/.338/.485. I wouldn't pay 12-15mm per for 5 years for a 33 year old who has had only 1 really outstanding complete season in the past 8 years.

Nope - give me the first rounder and the supplemental pick. Save the $ for someone who is more predictably good.

I like JD - and I think he will turn it around. But I wouldn't pay him what he might get in the market.

TDog
05-31-2007, 10:16 AM
I would disagree some with this last point. I think the fanbase is more a little more savvy, and less defensive. ...

No, the White Sox fan base isn't any more savvy than it was 10 years ago. Attendance has been inflated by front-running fair-weather fans who came to the party in 2005. Management knows that a drastic rebuilding effort would be accompanied by plummeting attendance. White Sox fans have made it clear that they won't support a loser.

Don't think the contempt people around here hold for the attendance success for the Cubs when they field losing teams has gone unnoticed.

spiffie
05-31-2007, 10:23 AM
No, the White Sox fan base isn't any more savvy than it was 10 years ago. Attendance has been inflated by front-running fair-weather fans who came to the party in 2005. Management knows that a drastic rebuilding effort would be accompanied by plummeting attendance. White Sox fans have made it clear that they won't support a loser.

Don't think the contempt people around here hold for the attendance success for the Cubs when they field losing teams has gone unnoticed.
I would argue that. When the Sox made the Lee for Podsednik trade, that should have killed the fanbase and ticket sales should have plummeted. But the season ticket sales increased.

White Sox fans won't support a loser. I agree. But I think they will support a team that is rebuilding. More than anything I think the fanbase would turn on a team like the Yankees, where tons of veterans just tank on a daily basis. But I suspect that the Sox have built up enough capital with the 2005 season that even if attendance dropped for a while, that they wouldn't have nearly as much to do to get it back as they did after 1997.

The contempt for the Cubs comes from the fact the fans blindly support them no matter what. If the Sox look like they have a plan, people can buy into that. If they just let everyone walk and throw a bunch of kids out there and say that's it, then there would be more problems.

UserNameBlank
05-31-2007, 10:47 AM
I would disagree some with this last point. I think the fanbase is more a little more savvy, and less defensive. Remember 1997 was just a few years after the strike, and then the Albert Belle signing. The organization didn't have much credit with the fans. Now it is a different story. We won it all in 2005, and still had a very good team in 2006. They've spent money and tried to put a winner out there. If the Sox were to be out of contention at the deadline and made some major deals to shed talent, I think most of the fanbase would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Sure some would storm away in a huff, but they'll come back when the Sox are winning, they always do.
I agree, especially after this last offseason. KW got a lot of heat but none of the moves he has made have hurt us, they have only made us better.

Danks > McCarthy and Danks + Masset >>> McCarthy, Folyd + Gio > Freddy even if you can only measure that on potential and trade value, and Aardsma > Cotts. The only move that hasn't worked out so far is the Gload-Sisco trade, but I still wouldn't take that back. We gave up a bench player who wouldn't have helped us much even with all our injuries considering his OF play, and even though Sisco has sucked, he still has a chance to figure things out and become a solid starter or a dominant pen guy. He's only 24.

I think a lot of people would be pissed but IMO the people that would be pissed about a rebuilding effort aren't really diehards or anything, just hte casual type of fan that throws balls back on the field at the Cell. I say that because anyone who follows the Sox knows how crazy the FA market is, they know how many key players we have heading to FA this offseason and after '08, they know we're getting older and slower, and they know how this team is lacking balance.

I would like to add though that I can't see a rebuilding phase taking anywhere near as much time as it has taken Cleveland and Detroit, and I highly highly doubt we'd find ourselves in a position like the Mariners have been despite the strength of our division. Kenny has always had the knack for finding projects and he has shown that doesn't like to trade for prospects who are far away. He doesn't take guys with low ceilings either. I trust KW and I really believe he is going to bring us many contenders and several playoff teams in the future, and I even think he'll get us another title before he's done. Not only is he the best GM in the American League, but he can break twenty cinder blocks stacked on top of each other with his forehead.

UserNameBlank
05-31-2007, 10:53 AM
For a Type A player you get that teams 1st pick, provided it it not top 15, in which case you get their 2nd pick. Then you get a supplemental pick as well. If a team signs multiple Type A FAs, then the team with the higher ranked player gets the first pick.
Thanks for correcting me. That sounds a lot better.

BTW, just wondering, but anyone think there should be a stickied thread in Talking Baseball or something that kind of explains this stuff? Like the compensation stuff, the Rule-5 rules, the waiver deadline, etc.? I'd even write some of it if we could do that. Especially for the waiver deadline because it's pretty confusing and gets tiresome to explain every August.

TDog
05-31-2007, 12:31 PM
I would argue that. When the Sox made the Lee for Podsednik trade, that should have killed the fanbase and ticket sales should have plummeted. But the season ticket sales increased. ....

Trading Carlos Lee was fine tuning. Losing Magglio Ordonez only hurt minimally because he was injured and discredited before he left. The 2005 attendance had more to do with the success of the team than with season ticket sales.

If I were living in the Chicago area, I would go to a lot of Sox games no matter how bad they were. I don't hold Cubs fans in contempt for blindly following their team because by your definition I blindly follow mine. (Reasons why I may hold Cubs fans in contempt are not the issue, so I won't go there.) The Cubs always present to their fans that they have a plan. You scorn their fans for believing it. Do you think Sox fans will support a new plan that doesn't even present a possibility of imminent success?

It isn't easy to build a winner. You could fine tune this team, but if the Sox blow up this team and start all over, chances are good there will be long years of trying to stay ahead of KC. It has happened before after the Sox put together very good teams that fell short -- 1967, 1972, 1983 etc. -- and seasons don't get much darker than 1969, 19f70 and 1976, 1978. Don't think dark days can't come again.

I have to admit, if Sox fans blindly supported their team, the prospect of looming dark days wouldn't be so scary.

sox1970
05-31-2007, 12:51 PM
A few years ago, I thought the Sox would never win with a combination of Lee, Ordonez, Konerko, and Valentin. Now, I'm at the point where I don't think the Sox will ever win with a combination of Dye, Thome, Konerko, and Crede.

This team is too slow. I like all of these guys individually, but the combination of them is just off.

If they are 10 games out at the break, they should start trading if the trade makes sense. Doesn't matter if the name is Konerko or Buehrle, or anyone else.

They need to get rid of Vazquez at any cost. That was the dumbest signing in KW's tenure. In Vazquez' last 32 starts, which is a full season, he has only 10 quality starts and the Sox are 12-20 in those 32 games. He'll never be part of a championship team.

soxfan13
05-31-2007, 01:15 PM
A few years ago, I thought the Sox would never win with a combination of Lee, Ordonez, Konerko, and Valentin. Now, I'm at the point where I don't think the Sox will ever win with a combination of Dye, Thome, Konerko, and Crede.

This team is too slow. I like all of these guys individually, but the combination of them is just off.

If they are 10 games out at the break, they should start trading if the trade makes sense. Doesn't matter if the name is Konerko or Buehrle, or anyone else.

They need to get rid of Vazquez at any cost. That was the dumbest signing in KW's tenure. In Vazquez' last 32 starts, which is a full season, he has only 10 quality starts and the Sox are 12-20 in those 32 games. He'll never be part of a championship team.

You ask Indianwhitesoxfan and he will tell you Coop has made Vazquez a perennial Cy Young winner and future Hall of Famer

russ99
05-31-2007, 01:17 PM
For a Type A player you get that teams 1st pick, provided it it not top 15, in which case you get their 2nd pick. Then you get a supplemental pick as well. If a team signs multiple Type A FAs, then the team with the higher ranked player gets the first pick.

I thought those rankings were based on 2-year averages. I could be wrong, though.

Lukin13
05-31-2007, 07:17 PM
Minnesota was under .500 at this time last year and they wound up winning the division. I don't think anyone here is saying that the Sox are going to be in first place next week (in fact, I'm pretty sure that's mathmatically impossible) or even by the end of June. BUT! I would also be willing to bet you that by the end of June the Sox, Cleveland and Detroit are within two games of each other...


Yes, I was alive and breathing last season.... I said it was a longshot for the Sox to leapfrog 3 teams; I didn't say it was impossible.

If Dye and Buehrle are both typeA free agents I would have to say a 1st round draft pick is about as much as you could hope for if we were to rent them.... so why does anyone trade typeA players at the deadline???? Why didn't I ever hear this when Soriano didn't get traded last year... basically teams weren't offering more than a 1st round pick for him... correct??

UserNameBlank
05-31-2007, 08:23 PM
Yes, I was alive and breathing last season.... I said it was a longshot for the Sox to leapfrog 3 teams; I didn't say it was impossible.

If Dye and Buehrle are both typeA free agents I would have to say a 1st round draft pick is about as much as you could hope for if we were to rent them.... so why does anyone trade typeA players at the deadline???? Why didn't I ever hear this when Soriano didn't get traded last year... basically teams weren't offering more than a 1st round pick for him... correct??
It's the Gavin Floyd/Joe Borchard thing. Yeah a first round pick is great, but they don't always turn out. Just because you have a pick in the first round doesn't mean you are guaranteed a worthwhile player. Meanwhile, other teams don't want to give up their best prospects as rentals, especially when these guys are only a few months from being major league ready. No way we give up Gio or Fields, which is what say Atlanta or Seattle would want for Andruw Jones or Ichiro. The hard part is trying to convince a team to give up such a player for your rental, and most teams don't do that which is why there are few big deals at the by the trade deadline.

rocky biddle
05-31-2007, 08:31 PM
If Dye and Buehrle are both typeA free agents I would have to say a 1st round draft pick is about as much as you could hope for if we were to rent them.... so why does anyone trade typeA players at the deadline???? Why didn't I ever hear this when Soriano didn't get traded last year... basically teams weren't offering more than a 1st round pick for him... correct??

I could be wrong, but I think a 1st round pick is what you get in compensation if you "rent" a Type A player and are unable to resign him. It's independent of what you got in the orignal trade.

Dan the Man
05-31-2007, 09:22 PM
Please no one misunderstand me here: I do NOT want a fire sale, but I do think that if we are 8+ games out of contention by mid-late July, I wouldn't mind seeing Dye or even Crede traded. I really want Buehrle to stay. And that last time there was a "fire sale", the Marlins got Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, Mike Jacobs, and Ricky Nolasco. However, they also got a ton of busts, like Travis Bowyer and Sergio Mitre. That's the risk with a fire sale, sometimes you hit it big, but usually you get a whole bunch of low ceiling minor leaguers.

UserNameBlank
06-01-2007, 12:48 AM
Please no one misunderstand me here: I do NOT want a fire sale, but I do think that if we are 8+ games out of contention by mid-late July, I wouldn't mind seeing Dye or even Crede traded. I really want Buehrle to stay. And that last time there was a "fire sale", the Marlins got Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, Mike Jacobs, and Ricky Nolasco. However, they also got a ton of busts, like Travis Bowyer and Sergio Mitre. That's the risk with a fire sale, sometimes you hit it big, but usually you get a whole bunch of low ceiling minor leaguers.
Anibal Sanchez and Hanley Ramirez, their biggest bounties, came in the Beckett deal. Beckett at the time was a young SP with injury issues with ace potential and a cheap contract. We have no one that meets that description. The closest we had was Garland last offseason but KW nixed a deal that would have sent Jason Hirsch, Willy Taveras, and some reliever named Buccholz. The rumor was KW also wanted Hunter Pence. If KW could have worked out something that netted us Hirsch, Taveras, and Pence for Garland and a low level prospect, and still made the McCarthy and Freddy deals, we'd already have a very solid future pitching staff with Hirsch, Danks, Masset, Gio, and one of many of our own minor leaguers plus possibly someone from a future trade. I think if KW could have that deal back he would make it.

For what we have now, I'd say MacDougal, Thornton, Contreras, and Garland are our biggest chips that I could actually see traded. Our rentals and Crede probably won't net us what we're looking for, unless KW finds some project available that he's had his eyes on for a while. I certainly wouldn't want to deal those guys for anymore Lance Broadways, and if that is what we're offered we should just get the compensation picks.

veeter
06-01-2007, 09:09 AM
Sergio Mitre is having a very good year.