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Lillian
05-29-2007, 07:26 AM
It is apparent that the Bullpen is the Sox biggest problem. While the offense has been very disappointing, it is not in need of any major changes. We have too many established good hitters, and although there is no guarantee that they will eventually rebound, and put up their normal numbers, there is no point in trying to change the parts. There is no guarantee that their replacements would be any better, or even as good.

This bullpen however has no track record beyond the last three spots, currently filled by Thornton, MacDougal, and Jenks. Thornton and Jenks are fine, and Coop is quite confident that he can fix MacDougal.

That leaves the rest of the pen. Shipping Sisco to AAA was the first important move. Bringing in Day may yet work out. His slider was not breaking yesterday, so let's don't be too quick to judge. Maybe it was just the jitters of his debut.
Logan is fine as a situational lefty, and his motion adds a different look.
Aardsma should be fine as a long reliever, at least, and maybe even as a set up guy.
The one change that I would like to see is adding someone who is not a hard thrower. We've talked about this before, and many of us have argued that the pen needs a little more variety.
I think Masset is the real deal, but he is in the same mold as the other hard throwers.

One possible solution would be to have Danks and Masset switch roles.
Please, hear me out. I know that you hate to tinker with success, and Danks has certainly pitched well as a starter. However, I think that he would be a great addition to the pen. He has very good control, which seems to be one of the biggest issues of our relief core, as exhibited by Sisco and MacDougal.
Danks would offer a different look. He throws a great curve and change up.
And of course, it never hurts to have another lefty.

Masset is already pretty stretched out, and has pitched 5 or 6 innings a couple of times this year. He aspires to be a starter, which he has been most of his young career. One could argue that he has earned an opportunity to try it.

Danks might be really effective coming into the game right in the middle of that mix of hard throwers. I'd like to see what he could do following MacDougal or Thornton, as a bridge to the Closer. The kid is fearless, a great quality, especially for a reliever.
What do you think, and what other possible solutions are there for this very challenged pen?

IndianWhiteSox
05-29-2007, 07:42 AM
It is apparent that the Bullpen is the Sox biggest problem. While the offense has been very disappointing, it is not in need of any major changes. We have too many established good hitters, and although there is no guarantee that they will eventually rebound, and put up their normal numbers, there is no point in trying to change the parts. There is no guarantee that their replacements would be any better, or even as good.

This bullpen however has no track record beyond the last three spots, currently filled by Thornton, MacDougal, and Jenks. Thornton and Jenks are fine, and Coop is quite confident that he can fix MacDougal.

That leaves the rest of the pen. Shipping Sisco to AAA was the first important move. Bringing in Day may yet work out. His slider was not breaking yesterday, so let's don't be too quick to judge. Maybe it was just the jitters of his debut.
Logan is fine as a situational lefty, and his motion adds a different look.
Aardsma should be fine as a long reliever, at least, and maybe even as a set up guy.
The one change that I would like to see is adding someone who is not a hard thrower. We've talked about this before, and many of us have argued that the pen needs a little more variety.
I think Masset is the real deal, but he is in the same mold as the other hard throwers.

One possible solution would be to have Danks and Masset switch roles.
Please, hear me out. I know that you hate to tinker with success, and Danks has certainly pitched well as a starter. However, I think that he would be a great addition to the pen. He has very good control, which seems to be one of the biggest issues of our relief core, as exhibited by Sisco and MacDougal.
Danks would offer a different look. He throws a great curve and change up.
And of course, it never hurts to have another lefty.

Masset is already pretty stretched out, and has pitched 5 or 6 innings a couple of times this year. He aspires to be a starter, which he has been most of his young career. One could argue that he has earned an opportunity to try it.

Danks might be really effective coming into the game right in the middle of that mix of hard throwers. I'd like to see what he could do following MacDougal or Thornton, as a bridge to the Closer. The kid is fearless, a great quality, especially for a reliever.
What do you think, and what other possible solutions are there for this very challenged pen?

While you may have a point there in making that switch, the main problem would be that you would be messing around with his rhythm and timing as well as tinkering with success. Thus that wouldn't work out as well as you would think. If anything maybe call up Gonzalez, Haegar or Floyd. Otherwise the starters really just need to get to the 6-7th inning every game or Ozzie needs to stop with this LOOGY and ROOGY crap. Which could be tiring out these relievers as well thus causing this dilemma.

peelwonder
05-29-2007, 09:10 AM
The first big step in my eyes would be to have somebody other than Ozzie manage it.

cws05champ
05-29-2007, 09:27 AM
I don't think switching Danks and Massett would solve anything. It is just a different mentality coming out of the pen which is maybe why Massett has struggled(Similar to McCarthy last year) out of the pen a little. I would not want to mess with Danks success and risk him struggling out of the pen as well, ultimately him losing confidence in himself.

mrwag
05-29-2007, 09:48 AM
I don't care who's pitching so long as they throw a damn strike. Nobody can effectively pitch 2-0, 3-0 repeatedly and get by with it for long.

Scottiehaswheels
05-29-2007, 09:50 AM
The first big step in my eyes would be to have somebody other than Ozzie manage it.And how would someone else managing the bullpen automatically make these guys throw strikes?

Madvora
05-29-2007, 09:52 AM
A starting position is much more important than a relieving position. Danks is doing a great job in that #5 spot and he's a guy we're looking to keep in the rotation for years to come. That's not the issue to address. Our starting pitching is fine and should remain as it is.
Anyone who is not performing in the bullpen needs to be replaced by someone in the minors or someone outside of the organization. That's the simple way to put it. The tough part is finding someone who can pitch.

Jerko
05-29-2007, 10:05 AM
Well I thought of putting Danks out there but voted against it (as if I have a say):rolleyes:. I think we should try something for a while and see if it works: If there's a relief pitcher in the game, and let's say, he's getting guys out, LEAVE HIM IN for more than one or 2 batters. Can't do any worse than they're doing now. Guy comes in and gets an out, boom, he gone and somebody new is in. When you have 4 or 5 guys struggling, using them all in the same game seems a bit counterproductive. Someone posted the other day that Thornton does better against righties, so maybe bring HIM in against a tough righty instead of watching Sizemore (twice) and Crawford stick a fork in us. I think the talent is there but it's being misused.

soxfan13
05-29-2007, 10:44 AM
While you may have a point there in making that switch, the main problem would be that you would be messing around with his rhythm and timing as well as tinkering with success. Thus that wouldn't work out as well as you would think. If anything maybe call up Gonzalez, Haegar or Floyd. Otherwise the starters really just need to get to the 6-7th inning every game or Ozzie needs to stop with this LOOGY and ROOGY crap. Which could be tiring out these relievers as well thus causing this dilemma.


If Coop was God like you see it, then he would have these guys throwing strikes

oeo
05-29-2007, 10:57 AM
The first big step in my eyes would be to have somebody other than Ozzie manage it.

:rolling:

You'd be complaining about how it is "managed" regardless of who the manager is. When Jenks and Thornton are the only two guys worth a thing, of course Ozzie looks like a dumbass with his bullpen moves...he doesn't have any choices. Unless the starter gets to the eighth, he's ****ed. This is much like last year, except last year at this time he didn't even have Thornton.

FedEx227
05-29-2007, 11:30 AM
Coop needs to find the next off-day, and spend the entire day with guys like Sisco and MacDougal and attempt to fix their mechanics. Right now they are WAY off which is causing the horrendous results we're seeing.

LauraJ14
05-29-2007, 11:38 AM
Maybe Ozzie should just go with the guys who get outs and stop worrying about the righty lefty matchups.
Also anybody have any stats on inherited runners scoring? It seems like everytime a starter gives up a hit in the 6th, 7th inning, the reliever that comes in allows that runner to score.

The Immigrant
05-29-2007, 11:57 AM
Maybe Ozzie should just go with the guys who get outs and stop worrying about the righty lefty matchups.

This would be a good place to start, but he won't do it.

southsideirish71
05-29-2007, 12:00 PM
We have a lefty 22 year old starter who has a sub 4 ERA and we want to put him in the pen? How does this make sense in any reality.

Masset will get his chance to start. He needs to bide his time, and do what McCarthy didnt do. Take advantage of spot starting, and not complain about his role. If he does that, which I think he will, he will get his chance probably next year.

One of the high prices starters will not be here next year. My guess is that we resign Buerhle and then try to pawn Contreras off to the Mets. Insert Massett into the rotation for another low cost option that can give us innings.

Scottiehaswheels
05-29-2007, 12:02 PM
We have a lefty 22 year old starter who has a sub 4 ERA and we want to put him in the pen? How does this make sense in any reality.

Masset will get his chance to start. He needs to bide his time, and do what McCarthy didnt do. Take advantage of spot starting, and not complain about his role. If he does that, which I think he will, he will get his chance probably next year.

One of the high prices starters will not be here next year. My guess is that we resign Buerhle and then try to pawn Contreras off to the Mets. Insert Massett into the rotation for another low cost option that can give us innings.And make a run at Ichiro

JB98
05-29-2007, 12:41 PM
Well I thought of putting Danks out there but voted against it (as if I have a say):rolleyes:. I think we should try something for a while and see if it works: If there's a relief pitcher in the game, and let's say, he's getting guys out, LEAVE HIM IN for more than one or 2 batters. Can't do any worse than they're doing now. Guy comes in and gets an out, boom, he gone and somebody new is in. When you have 4 or 5 guys struggling, using them all in the same game seems a bit counterproductive. Someone posted the other day that Thornton does better against righties, so maybe bring HIM in against a tough righty instead of watching Sizemore (twice) and Crawford stick a fork in us. I think the talent is there but it's being misused.

Thornton is better against righties, and he's being used as a lefty specialist. Go figure. I don't know why Ozzie can't just hand a guy the ball and say, "The eighth inning is yours." For some reason, we need to go batter-by-batter and use three relievers to get through the seventh and eighth innings. It's ridiculous. Ozzie is no longer managing with his gut. He is playing the chalk. He didn't win the World Series by managing by the book. He won the World Series by doing some unorthodox things, like letting starters pitch four complete games in a row. Now, he's going by the book. His moves are so predictable, and he's been outmanuevered by the opposing manager on multiple occasions this season.

Chicken Dinner
05-29-2007, 01:09 PM
If the Rockies can peel off 6 in a row, anything can happen. :smile:

Madscout
05-29-2007, 01:10 PM
Thornton is better against righties, and he's being used as a lefty specialist. Go figure. I don't know why Ozzie can't just hand a guy the ball and say, "The eighth inning is yours." For some reason, we need to go batter-by-batter and use three relievers to get through the seventh and eighth innings. It's ridiculous. Ozzie is no longer managing with his gut. He is playing the chalk. He didn't win the World Series by managing by the book. He won the World Series by doing some unorthodox things, like letting starters pitch four complete games in a row. Now, he's going by the book. His moves are so predictable, and he's been outmanuevered by the opposing manager on multiple occasions this season.

And the way they blow leads, we are screwed when we have to play more innings and don't have anything left in the pen.

TDog
05-29-2007, 01:40 PM
Reversing the roles of Danks and Masset wouldn't change anyting. Reversing the roles of Masset and Vazquez wouldn't change anything.

Despite the hatred by many here for Logan, he has been more consistent in doing his job of late than Aardsma or MacDougal. He is tough against good lefthanded hitters, who often are the best hitters on their teams. He did a better job Monday against Morneau with the bases loaded and one out than Masset did on the last trip to the Metrodome facing Morneau with two on and two out. A three-run homer by Morneau provided the only runs Danks gave up in his April loss to the Twins in Chicago.

I don't have a great problem with the way Guillen handles the bullpen. Usually the moves he makes are the ones I would make. The problem is that neither the starters or relievers are doing their jobs. He takes out Buehrle who gets in a two-on, two-out jam in the seventh, facing hitters who have hit him hard earlier in the game, and the bullpen loses the lead. The next weekend, Buehrle stays in the game when he gets in a two-on, two-out seventh-inning jam, and he surrenders the tying home run.

The best relievers could start. Hall of Famers Hoyt Wilhelm and Dennis Eckersley pitched no-hitters. Future Hall of Famer Rich Gossage pitched complete games for the White Sox, including one that against the Indians that Eckersley started in 1976. Wilbur Wood was a 20-save pitcher before he was a perennial 20-game winner for the Sox. And, of course, LaMarr Hoyt was the long, middle and short man in the pen before he became a Cy Young Award-winning starter. But most relievers have inconsistent careers and even seasons with brilliant outings punctuated with failure.

The current problems with the Sox bullpen are being amplified by bad luck. Fortunately, the Sox weren't alone in bullpen failure Monday. The Devil Rays came from behind against the Tigers pen, up to and including the closer. Against Todd Jones, down by one, it went single, single, sacrifice, intentional walk (to Norton -- not a genius move by the Tigers manager) and a two-run single by Dukes. Even the Cubs had their leading home run hitter up as the potential winning run after entering the ninth facing a 5-0 deficit.

I think there is talent in the Sox bullpen. I don't think it's that far from being consistent again. I'm not sure what adjustments are needed, but I don't believe looking to the starting rotation for bullpen help will improve the team's chances at all.

russ99
05-29-2007, 02:32 PM
I think Masset should be the righty setup guy, since no one else can seem to throw strikes or get anyone out.

I thought Ozzie was going to get Maalox fed through an I.V. after Aardsma's 3 walks yesterday.

JB98
05-30-2007, 12:02 AM
I think Masset should be the righty setup guy, since no one else can seem to throw strikes or get anyone out.

I thought Ozzie was going to get Maalox fed through an I.V. after Aardsma's 3 walks yesterday.

If you make Masset the righty set-up guy, who is your long reliever? Who else can give us three or four innings if a starter gets knocked out early? Coop thinks he can fix MacDougal. I hate to say it, but that's our best hope.