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View Full Version : We officially have NO speed... what do we do?


regionsox73
05-27-2007, 11:08 PM
First we lose Pods until who knows so our leadoff guy is out-probably until July. Now Pablo, the guy who was playing some LF and doing some leadoff is out until August if lucky. That leaves us with Erstad and Mackowiak as the only two guys that can go 1st to 3rd? Sometimes you look out on the bases and you have Thome, Dye, Konerko, A.J., Hall, etc. It is like a slowpitch softball team. Almost like you need to rely on the long ball to score guys or hope they walk in runs. Cintron is another piano lugger and I had figured him to be more fleet of foot.

I am not sure if we have anyone to fill the void as a speed guy in AAA so that might have to be addressed by trade- and it is not too early.

Is Ricky Henderson still playing Independent ball somewhere? (TIC)

Hitmen77
05-27-2007, 11:15 PM
If speed/basestealing threat is our primary concern, we do have Jerry Owens available at AAA.

I guess we'll find out tomorrow morning who the Sox call up to replace Pablo.

whitesoxfan
05-27-2007, 11:17 PM
Jerry Owens. He's the likely callup IMO. His main thing about him is his speed and speed doesn't slump, so if he's on the bench, that'll be the best role for him. Fields, Sweeney, and BA need their AB's in Charlotte so I wouldn't call any of them up. I think Owens can step in and do a good job.

sox1970
05-27-2007, 11:19 PM
Jerry Owens. He's the likely callup IMO. His main thing about him is his speed and speed doesn't slump, so if he's on the bench, that'll be the best role for him. Fields, Sweeney, and BA need their AB's in Charlotte so I wouldn't call any of them up. I think Owens can step in and do a good job.

I do too. He's more cut out to be a 4th outfielder anyway.

UserNameBlank
05-28-2007, 12:01 AM
What do we do?

Play the only type of game we can.

We suck fundamentally and have a hard time getting on base as a team. Our "reliance on HR's" has been unnecessarily bitched about, which is strange because it's not like we've been hitting a ton of bombs as it is.

The only thing this team can do is look for clutch hits and at least try once in a while to capitalize on golden scoring opportunities. We don't have the ability to "make things happen" anymore, so we'll have to be very, very good at turning extra outs and leadoff walks into runs.

KW needs to get another bat to put in LF, and we're going to have to go back into 2003 Sox mode (with better starting pitching) and try to win like that for the rest of the year. If we can't, this team should be pretty much blown up after the season. If that is the case and the team is blown up, I'd like to see Iguchi and one of Buehrle/Garland re-signed, and everyone on our current roster but Konerko, AJ, Danks, Vazquez, Masset, Aardsma, and Jenks either heavily shopped or traded.

Thome25
05-28-2007, 12:07 AM
What do we do?

Play the only type of game we can.

We suck fundamentally and have a hard time getting on base as a team. Our "reliance on HR's" has been unnecessarily bitched about, which is strange because it's not like we've been hitting a ton of bombs as it is.

The only thing this team can do is look for clutch hits and at least try once in a while to capitalize on golden scoring opportunities. We don't have the ability to "make things happen" anymore, so we'll have to be very, very good at turning extra outs and leadoff walks into runs.

KW needs to get another bat to put in LF, and we're going to have to go back into 2003 Sox mode (with better starting pitching) and try to win like that for the rest of the year. If we can't, this team should be pretty much blown up after the season. If that is the case and the team is blown up, I'd like to see Iguchi and one of Buehrle/Garland re-signed, and everyone on our current roster but Konerko, AJ, Danks, Vazquez, Masset, Aardsma, and Jenks either heavily shopped or traded.

There's plenty of candidates for LF in the minors. The bullpen needs some help before the OF does.

Unblyleven Bread
05-28-2007, 12:19 AM
As long as we hit we'll be fine in the short term. Take today for instance where we strung together a lot of base hits, not trying to do too much. Now let's do that and not have a pitching meltdown and we're fine.

JB98
05-28-2007, 12:24 AM
There's plenty of candidates for LF in the minors. The bullpen needs some help before the OF does.

I agree the bullpen needs some help, but if you think the answer to the LF problem is coming from Charlotte, I would strongly disagree. None of those options are really any better than Mack at this point.

WhiteSox5187
05-28-2007, 12:27 AM
Pitching, pitching, pitching. That's what this season (and every other season) comes down to. We excuted well in 2005, but we STILL hit a lot of homeruns. You look at the guys who could steal bases on that team, you had Pods and that's about it. We still had guys clogging up the bases in JD, Everrett, Konerko, AJ and Crede. The difference between 2005 and 2006 was that the pitching was much much better in 2005. If our starting pitching keeps pitching like this and we find someway to fix the bullpen, we'll be fine.

oeo
05-28-2007, 12:46 AM
I do too. He's more cut out to be a 4th outfielder anyway.

Although he is having a very good season, so far.

minastirith67
05-28-2007, 03:02 AM
We give up all hope for the season. We all know that stealing bases and running fast are the foundation for a world champion.

:rolleyes:

BeviBall!
05-28-2007, 07:06 AM
We give up all hope for the season. We all know that stealing bases and running fast are the foundation for a world champion.

:rolleyes:

It was in 2005. Station to station got us real far the other years.

We'll see if Owens gets the call. If I remember correctly, he opened his mouth in spring training and that was probably why KW sent him down. I'd like to see what the kid can do.

IndianWhiteSox
05-28-2007, 07:19 AM
Pitching, pitching, pitching. That's what this season (and every other season) comes down to. We excuted well in 2005, but we STILL hit a lot of homeruns. You look at the guys who could steal bases on that team, you had Pods and that's about it. We still had guys clogging up the bases in JD, Everrett, Konerko, AJ and Crede. The difference between 2005 and 2006 was that the pitching was much much better in 2005. If our starting pitching keeps pitching like this and we find someway to fix the bullpen, we'll be fine.

Even thought we had those basecloggers in the middle, we still had the greatest CF in the history of baseball, Aaron Rowand to at least break those guys up where as now, we don't even have that. Why else was Rowand not being on the Sox in 2006 a legit reason why they missed the playoffs that year.

It was in 2005. Station to station got us real far the other years.

We'll see if Owens gets the call. If I remember correctly, he opened his mouth in spring training and that was probably why KW sent him down. I'd like to see what the kid can do.

I'm not sure about Jerry Owens.

DickAllen72
05-28-2007, 10:20 AM
What do we do?

Play the only type of game we can.

We suck fundamentally and have a hard time getting on base as a team. Our "reliance on HR's" has been unnecessarily bitched about, which is strange because it's not like we've been hitting a ton of bombs as it is.

The only thing this team can do is look for clutch hits and at least try once in a while to capitalize on golden scoring opportunities.
The problem is that a runner at 2B isn't really a runner in scoring position with this team most of the time. And it takes three hits in a row to get a guy to third base.

It's pretty hard to have to get four base hits to score one run, so on days we don't hit the long ball, we're baically screwed.

johnny_mostil
05-28-2007, 10:32 AM
The problem is that a runner at 2B isn't really a runner in scoring position with this team most of the time. And it takes three hits in a row to get a guy to third base.

It's pretty hard to have to get four base hits to score one run, so on days we don't hit the long ball, we're basically screwed.

Or, alternately, our batters (other than Thome) could take walks.

Small-ball works as a spice, but it's just not a winning strategy. Getting men on and hitting the ball out of the park (or at least off the wall) is usually required to generate enough runs to win a 21st century major league baseball game. For some odd reason I've never found out, White Sox fans -- and their team -- still believe in a baseball ideology that comes from a hundred years ago.

Building a team around not taking away Scott Podsednik's job (which is the only explanation I can find for the dearth of competent corner outfielders in the system) means Podsednik has to be an All-Star for the team to contend. Lighting doesn't strike twice.

roadrunner
05-28-2007, 10:36 AM
The problem is that a runner at 2B isn't really a runner in scoring position with this team most of the time. And it takes three hits in a row to get a guy to third base.

It's pretty hard to have to get four base hits to score one run, so on days we don't hit the long ball, we're baically screwed.

I couldn't agree more. I've also noticed that teams seem to be scoring from first on doubles way way more than we seem to be doing that. Same thing first to third and scoring from second on a single. Weak throwing arms in LF/CF only add to this discrepancy.

Our speed at every position is either average or below average. I agree that Konerko, thome, dye and AJ are serious basecloggers. What bugs me the most, however, is that we don't have above average speed (relative to position) at 2B, SS, 3B, CF or LF (depending on who is playing).

I rate Crede,Iguchi, Uribe and Erstad to have below average to average speed when compared to other players at their positions. Perhaps these positions would be the best places to infuse speed given our other basecloggers. Noteworthy is the fact that 3 of 4 aforementioned are potential free agents.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2007, 12:49 PM
Region:

All you can do at this point in time is 'put up' with it and hope in the off season Kenny corrects the problem by getting two or three guys who can run, steal bases, put pressure on opposing defenses.

Lip

UserNameBlank
05-28-2007, 04:38 PM
Or, alternately, our batters (other than Thome) could take walks.

Small-ball works as a spice, but it's just not a winning strategy. Getting men on and hitting the ball out of the park (or at least off the wall) is usually required to generate enough runs to win a 21st century major league baseball game. For some odd reason I've never found out, White Sox fans -- and their team -- still believe in a baseball ideology that comes from a hundred years ago.

Building a team around not taking away Scott Podsednik's job (which is the only explanation I can find for the dearth of competent corner outfielders in the system) means Podsednik has to be an All-Star for the team to contend. Lighting doesn't strike twice.
Yeah, I don't get all that either. All teams rely on home runs, and home runs obviously are more effective when people are on base (duh), which is why it is good to take a walk every once in a while.

It's funny because you can get crucified here for wanting more high OBP players, yet we play in the damn Cell. We should play for the longball/XBH most of the time.

It is very important to have that 'smallball' ability in order to push across runs against dominant pitching, especially in a playoff scenario, but this "Ozzieball" **** just doesn't work in the AL and in our ballpark more than anything.

We do need more team speed, but it is balance that we lack as a whole. We need some guys at the top and bottom of the lineup that can get on base and make things happen, i.e get into scoring position, and some sluggers in the middle who can get XBH's. We don't have that now but I'd bet a million dollars Ozzie still plays his "Ozzieball" anyway.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2007, 04:45 PM
User:

The Ozzieball **** seemed to work pretty well in 2005 didn't it?

Great teams can beat you in a number of ways...by hitting a three run home run, stealing a base to get into scoring position, going the opposite way to advance runners.

You can't rely on just a single dimension to win because you can't 'guarantee'' that the single way is going to be available to you for 95 or 100 games.

The point, I think, from a lot of fans isn't that 'home runs are bad,' it's that this team is to one dimensional and when they aren't hitting home runs they are screwed because they have very few other options.

To me this club clearly needs two or even better three guys in the lineup who can run, steal bases, put pressure on opposing defenses.

If that means replacing Uribe or Iguchi or Podsednik (because he can't stay healthy) then so be it.

Lip

fuzzy_patters
05-28-2007, 04:52 PM
Yeah, I don't get all that either. All teams rely on home runs, and home runs obviously are more effective when people are on base (duh), which is why it is good to take a walk every once in a while.

It's funny because you can get crucified here for wanting more high OBP players, yet we play in the damn Cell. We should play for the longball/XBH most of the time.

It is very important to have that 'smallball' ability in order to push across runs against dominant pitching, especially in a playoff scenario, but this "Ozzieball" **** just doesn't work in the AL and in our ballpark more than anything.

We do need more team speed, but it is balance that we lack as a whole. We need some guys at the top and bottom of the lineup that can get on base and make things happen, i.e get into scoring position, and some sluggers in the middle who can get XBH's. We don't have that now but I'd bet a million dollars Ozzie still plays his "Ozzieball" anyway.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions that I have seen on this board. I do not believe that I have read any posts arguing that we need to stop hitting homeruns. The posts have merely been saying that we need to have more speed so that we are not relying solely on homeruns. The only people that I have seen crucified here were people like jeremyb, who argued that teams should only have high OBP players and that steals and bunts were a waste of outs. I think most of the people here realize that the ability to manufacture runs and hit home runs are both parts of a balanced offense.

fuzzy_patters
05-28-2007, 04:55 PM
User:


Great teams can beat you in a number of ways...by hitting a three run home run, stealing a base to get into scoring position, going the opposite way to advance runners.

Lip

Bingo! The late 1980s Oakland A's are the best comparison that I can think of. Thome, Dye and Konerko are similar to McGwire, Canseco, and Dave Henderson. The problem is that we do not have any Rickey Hendersons or Carney Lansfords to go with them.

UserNameBlank
05-28-2007, 05:30 PM
User:

The Ozzieball **** seemed to work pretty well in 2005 didn't it?

Great teams can beat you in a number of ways...by hitting a three run home run, stealing a base to get into scoring position, going the opposite way to advance runners.

You can't rely on just a single dimension to win because you can't 'guarantee'' that the single way is going to be available to you for 95 or 100 games.

The point, I think, from a lot of fans isn't that 'home runs are bad,' it's that this team is to one dimensional and when they aren't hitting home runs they are screwed because they have very few other options.

To me this club clearly needs two or even better three guys in the lineup who can run, steal bases, put pressure on opposing defenses.

If that means replacing Uribe or Iguchi or Podsednik (because he can't stay healthy) then so be it.

Lip
Yes, this team does need balance. We don't have that right now and it shows.

Ozzieball worked great in 2005. If Ozzieball is indeed an excellent pitching staff + a balanced lineup with power in the middle and speed on top + nice execution of the fundamentals + very good defense, ****, we should play Ozzieball all the time! We should have played it last year and we should be playing it now.

The only Ozzieball I see is guys with 20+ HR power failing to get down bunts, runners blazing their way from 1st to 2nd on a single, and smart baseball grinders hitting sac flies one out too late.

jabrch
05-28-2007, 05:43 PM
Fire Tim Raines - oh wait - we already tried that.

Joe
05-28-2007, 05:47 PM
Sign Rickey Henderson.

Law11
05-28-2007, 06:30 PM
A whole lotta this

DickAllen72
05-28-2007, 07:41 PM
Being able to score from second base on a base hit, or go first to third on a single to RF, or score from third on a fly ball hit medium deep isn't "Ozzieball" it's just plain old fashioned sound baseball. The Sox haven't seemed capable of playing it.

Home runs are not bad, they are great. But there's more to baseball than home runs.

MRM
05-28-2007, 07:43 PM
First we lose Pods until who knows so our leadoff guy is out-probably until July. Now Pablo, the guy who was playing some LF and doing some leadoff is out until August if lucky. That leaves us with Erstad and Mackowiak as the only two guys that can go 1st to 3rd? Sometimes you look out on the bases and you have Thome, Dye, Konerko, A.J., Hall, etc. It is like a slowpitch softball team. Almost like you need to rely on the long ball to score guys or hope they walk in runs. Cintron is another piano lugger and I had figured him to be more fleet of foot.

I am not sure if we have anyone to fill the void as a speed guy in AAA so that might have to be addressed by trade- and it is not too early.

Is Ricky Henderson still playing Independent ball somewhere? (TIC)

The A's routinely make the playoffs while NOT running at all. The Sox aren't really built around speed anyhow, don't sweat it.

kitekrazy
05-29-2007, 11:20 PM
Region:

All you can do at this point in time is 'put up' with it and hope in the off season Kenny corrects the problem by getting two or three guys who can run, steal bases, put pressure on opposing defenses.

Lip

That's getting harder to find. There's fast guys who don't know how to run the bases. In fact there's an overpaid guy on the North side just like that.

Chicken Dinner
05-30-2007, 10:20 AM
Speed is the last thing that's keeping us from winning. How about starting pitching, offense, relief pitching, fielding, and then speed.

IndianWhiteSox
05-30-2007, 02:46 PM
Bingo! The late 1980s Oakland A's are the best comparison that I can think of. Thome, Dye and Konerko are similar to McGwire, Canseco, and Dave Henderson. The problem is that we do not have any Rickey Hendersons or Carney Lansfords to go with them.

They also had more than enough steroids in their clubhouse to make up for everything.

startersstink
05-30-2007, 03:52 PM
Send every player to the "Don Beebe school of speed".