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seventyseven
05-24-2007, 10:24 AM
When talking about terrible MLB trades of yester-year, why doesn't anyone ever bring up Minnesota getting Johan Santana straight-up from the Marlins for (gulp) Jared Camp? And this after Florida selected Santana in the Rule 5 draft from Houston? :o: Wow. Learn new stuff everyday.

ilsox7
05-24-2007, 10:29 AM
Looks like he was taken by Florida specifically for the Twins. Florida would not have taken him if the Twins didn't give them something. It looks similar to the Cubs selling their Rule 5 pick this year to Cincy.

itsnotrequired
05-24-2007, 10:31 AM
The Nathan/Liriano/Bonser for Pierzynski trade has to be one of the worst trades in the last 10 years.

ilsox7
05-24-2007, 10:36 AM
The Nathan/Liriano/Bonser for Pierzynski trade has to be one of the worst trades in the last 10 years.

Yep. One could argue that any ONE of those guys for AJ, straight up, would be an even trade. All three of them? Ridiculous.

itsnotrequired
05-24-2007, 10:40 AM
Yep. One could argue that any ONE of those guys for AJ, straight up, would be an even trade. All three of them? Ridiculous.

Especially since all the Giants got was a one year rental of Pierzynski.

seventyseven
05-24-2007, 10:43 AM
The Nathan/Liriano/Bonser for Pierzynski trade has to be one of the worst trades in the last 10 years.

That trade was bad, agreed. However, Liriano had a history of arm problems at the time of the trade, and with TJS this year, who knows what his career will ultimately look like. I also think Bonser is pretty crummy. Certainly a major-league starter, but not a good one. So its really Nathan that was the steal, although AJP was one of the better catchers in baseball at the time of the trade.

On balance, you'd have to say SF was fleeced, but I don't think the trade was as awful as most do.

itsnotrequired
05-24-2007, 11:00 AM
That trade was bad, agreed. However, Liriano had a history of arm problems at the time of the trade, and with TJS this year, who knows what his career will ultimately look like. I also think Bonser is pretty crummy. Certainly a major-league starter, but not a good one. So its really Nathan that was the steal, although AJP was one of the better catchers in baseball at the time of the trade.

On balance, you'd have to say SF was fleeced, but I don't think the trade was as awful as most do.

The Giants traded three, young, high-ceiling prospects for a one-year rental catcher. It wasn't even the final piece of the puzzle they needed for a championship team (needed a RF).

Pitching is the name of the game and trading that volume of pitching prospects reeks of desperation. It would be something like like the Sox trading Day, Gio and Phillips for a LF like Carlos Lee. Stupid.

1917
05-24-2007, 11:09 AM
That trade was bad, agreed. However, Liriano had a history of arm problems at the time of the trade, and with TJS this year, who knows what his career will ultimately look like. I also think Bonser is pretty crummy. Certainly a major-league starter, but not a good one. So its really Nathan that was the steal, although AJP was one of the better catchers in baseball at the time of the trade.

On balance, you'd have to say SF was fleeced, but I don't think the trade was as awful as most do.

Nathan was a middle reliever at the time of the trade too....granted he was 12-4 in relief, but Worrell was their closer in 2003 (38 saves).

1917
05-24-2007, 11:14 AM
One trade that I think will sting real soon is the Bo Sox trading Hanely Rameriez and Anibel Sanchez for Beckett and Lowell...Granted Lowell is playing great right now and so is Beckett, but it looks like Beckett's blister is back and Lowell is getting old and I doubt he can keep this up....Sanchez has pitched a No No already and Hanely Rameriez is one of the best SS in the NL.

CHISOXFAN13
05-24-2007, 11:15 AM
Speaking of rentals, the Texas/Milwaukee trade last year was a joke.

The Brewers made out like bandits, acquring the league's top closer this year, Kevin Mench and two others for a player who bolted after two months.

The Immigrant
05-24-2007, 11:28 AM
In 2002, Montreal got Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew from the Indians in exchange for Lee Stevens, Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips. Montreal finished with an 83-79 record in 2002 and eventually spun Colon to the White Sox in exchange for El Duque (from the Yankees), Rocky Biddle and Jeff Liefer. El Duque never pitched for Montreal, returning to the Yankees the next year.

So, Omar Minaya managed to spin Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips into Rocky Biddle and Jeff Liefer. The lesson, as always, is that Omar Minaya is an idiot.

He also traded Scott Kazmir to the Devil Rays for Victor Zambrano and Bartolome Fortunato.

CashMan
05-24-2007, 11:36 AM
In 2002, Montreal got Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew from the Indians in exchange for Lee Stevens, Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips. Montreal finished with an 83-79 record in 2002 and eventually spun Colon to the White Sox in exchange for El Duque (from the Yankees), Rocky Biddle and Jeff Liefer. El Duque never pitched for Montreal, returning to the Yankees the next year.

So, Omar Minaya managed to spin Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips into Rocky Biddle and Jeff Liefer. The lesson, as always, is that Omar Minaya is an idiot.

He also traded Scott Kazmir to the Devil Rays for Victor Zambrano and Bartolome Fortunato.


You might wanna check the Kazmir deal, it was the GM before Minaya who made that deal.

1917
05-24-2007, 11:36 AM
In 2002, Montreal got Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew from the Indians in exchange for Lee Stevens, Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips. Montreal finished with an 83-79 record in 2002 and eventually spun Colon to the White Sox in exchange for El Duque (from the Yankees), Rocky Biddle and Jeff Liefer. El Duque never pitched for Montreal, returning to the Yankees the next year.

So, Omar Minaya managed to spin Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips into Rocky Biddle and Jeff Liefer. The lesson, as always, is that Omar Minaya is an idiot.

He also traded Scott Kazmir to the Devil Rays for Victor Zambrano and Bartolome Fortunato.

Kazmir for Victor Z was HORRID...If Kazmir was on the Mets last year, they beat the Cardinals and win the WS. Granted he isnt off to the best start this year, but if you put Kaz on a winning team, he would win 15-20 games easily with his stuff

goofymsfan
05-24-2007, 11:37 AM
Mariners made a horrible trade when they traded Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe for Slocumb.

The Immigrant
05-24-2007, 11:47 AM
You might wanna check the Kazmir deal, it was the GM before Minaya who made that deal.

You're right, it was Duquette who made that horrid deal.

Oblong
05-24-2007, 11:57 AM
It wasn't a single deal but former Tiger GM Randy Smith managed to spin Cecil Fielder and Travis Fryman for Matt Drews when it was all said and done. Fielder was traded to the Yankees in 1996 for Drews and Ruben Sierra. Then in an expansion draft AZ selected Drews and the Tigers traded Fryman to get him back (AZ traded Fryman to Cleveland).

Max Power
05-24-2007, 12:00 PM
In 2002, Montreal got Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew from the Indians in exchange for Lee Stevens, Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips. Montreal finished with an 83-79 record in 2002.


This trade was mentioned in the SI article about Grady Sizemore a couple weeks ago. Apparently the Expos thought they were going to be contracted at the end of the season and there would be a dispersal draft for their players. Minaya is quoted as saying he didn't care about trading a Class A guy like Sizemore because those guys would be on other teams next season anyway.

Sheds a little light on the thinking there.

Hitmen77
05-24-2007, 01:14 PM
Didn't the Cubs trade 3 pitching prospects for a one year rental in Juan Pierre? I don't know how those pitchers are doing for Florida, but it was pretty short-sighted by the Flubs.

seventyseven
05-24-2007, 01:41 PM
Didn't the Cubs trade 3 pitching prospects for a one year rental in Juan Pierre? I don't know how those pitchers are doing for Florida, but it was pretty short-sighted by the Flubs.

It was Pinto, Mitre, and Nolasco. Sounds a bit like Christopher Columbus' back-up boats. Anyways, they all have decent upside. Pierre was sucky.

Jjav829
05-24-2007, 01:45 PM
Travis Hafner and Aaron Myette for Einar Diaz and Ryan Drese.

Jason Bay and Oliver Perez for Brian Giles.

Adrian Gonazlez, Chris Young and Terrmel Sledge for Adam Eaton, Akinori Otsuka and Billy Killian.

Note that two of those three involve the Rangers getting fleeced.

WhiteSox5187
05-24-2007, 01:46 PM
Brock for Broglio.

And the Cubs trading Dontrelle Willis for Antonio Alfonseca. Not a good move...Hawk trading Bobby Bonilla for...who was it we got for him? And the Kip Wells for Todd Richie fiasco.

skobabe8
05-24-2007, 01:46 PM
You might wanna check the Kazmir deal, it was the GM before Minaya who made that deal.

That wouldnt happen to be a certain BBTN personality, would it? :D:

Jjav829
05-24-2007, 01:48 PM
That wouldnt happen to be a certain BBTN personality, would it? :D:

Not unless Jim Duquette is on BBTN. :smile:

Irishsox1
05-24-2007, 01:49 PM
The Sox and Cubs have made many trades that can be considered "bad" trades.

The Cubs sent Jose Cueto, Ryan Jorgensen, Jullian Tavarez & Dontrelle Willis to the Marlins for Antonio Alfonseca and Matt Clement. I remember at the time Tribune saying that it was a total steal for the Cubs.

The Sox sent Bobby Bonilla to the Pirates for Jose DeLeon. You can thank the Hawk for that trade and I don't buy this Rule 5 crap about the Pirates getting him back stuff.

ma-gaga
05-24-2007, 01:52 PM
That wouldnt happen to be a certain BBTN personality, would it? :D:

gawd, I cringe each time I hear "him" ripping on a team for a bad trade. Same with Kiki Vanderwahl from their NBA show. Why ESPN portrays these guys as experts when they can't keep a job doing what they are an "expert" at is amazing.

"Later tonight on NBA Fastbreak we have Kevin McHale and Billy King discussing the Lakers - Knicks trade"...

I can see it happening, and it isn't funny. ...

eriqjaffe
05-24-2007, 02:27 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Matt Karchner for Jon Garland.

Hitmen77
05-24-2007, 02:32 PM
Travis Hafner and Aaron Myette for Einar Diaz and Ryan Drese.

Jason Bay and Oliver Perez for Brian Giles.

Adrian Gonazlez, Chris Young and Terrmel Sledge for Adam Eaton, Akinori Otsuka and Billy Killian.

Note that two of those three involve the Rangers getting fleeced.

Nothing against McCarthy, but I hope in the end we'll be able to add the Danks/Massett trade to that list.

Dan Mega
05-24-2007, 02:46 PM
Foulke for Koch. :o:

eriqjaffe
05-24-2007, 02:57 PM
Foulke for Koch. :o:We did get Neal Cotts out of that trade, too.

Which worked out well one year, at least.

Hitmen77
05-24-2007, 02:59 PM
Foulke for Koch. :o:

...but we did get Cotts out of the deal and he played a key role for us in '05 (at which point Foulke would have been long gone via free agency). So, I have a hard time calling that a really bad trade.

Plus, we have now been able to trade Cotts for Aardsma and Vasquez. I think Aardsma is going to really help us throughout the season and Vasquez is looking very good at AAA right now.

CHISOXFAN13
05-24-2007, 03:04 PM
Brock for Broglio.

And the Cubs trading Dontrelle Willis for Antonio Alfonseca. Not a good move...Hawk trading Bobby Bonilla for...who was it we got for him? And the Kip Wells for Todd Richie fiasco.

On paper the Ritchie deal sucks. But in all honestly, Wells is a below average starter, Fogg is awful, and Sean Lowe has been out of baseball for some time.

Certainly not one of KW's best, but looking back on it now, none of those bums would have helped the White Sox win anything. If anything, Im glad he made the deal so none of them were around later.

EastCoastSoxFan
05-24-2007, 03:14 PM
Navarro to the Brewers for Valentin & Eldred (not sure if there were other players involved in that deal, but they were the principals).

Why any even remotely sane GM would have wanted to acquire Jaime Navarro is, to quote Egon Spengler, "beyond my capacity for rational thought"...

Max Power
05-24-2007, 04:04 PM
Navarro to the Brewers for Valentin & Eldred (not sure if there were other players involved in that deal, but they were the principals).

Why any even remotely sane GM would have wanted to acquire Jaime Navarro is, to quote Egon Spengler, "beyond my capacity for rational thought"...

True, although at the time I considered it nothing more than swapping crappy players. I didn't think Eldred would post any better stats than Navarro did here. Obviously I couldn't have been more wrong about Eldred or Valentin. Navarro, on the other hand, did as expected in Milwaukee.

1917
05-24-2007, 04:09 PM
On paper the Ritchie deal sucks. But in all honestly, Wells is a below average starter, Fogg is awful, and Sean Lowe has been out of baseball for some time.

Certainly not one of KW's best, but looking back on it now, none of those bums would have helped the White Sox win anything. If anything, Im glad he made the deal so none of them were around later.

The line on Ritchie was he was a great SP on a really, really bad team...that if he was on a team with any offense, he would be great...so it was a risk. Unfortunaltly, it back fired, but like it was said above, Fogg and Wells never panned out. The worst part is that if we were going to use 2 promising SP like Fogg and Wells as bait, I wish we could have got a sure thing, not a maybe.

balke
05-24-2007, 04:13 PM
The name Koch still burns. He gave up 10 homeruns in 53 innings of work. He went from a 44 Sv season to an 11.

Good move on paper at the time, bad results

Fenway
05-24-2007, 04:14 PM
One trade that I think will sting real soon is the Bo Sox trading Hanely Rameriez and Anibel Sanchez for Beckett and Lowell...Granted Lowell is playing great right now and so is Beckett, but it looks like Beckett's blister is back and Lowell is getting old and I doubt he can keep this up....Sanchez has pitched a No No already and Hanely Rameriez is one of the best SS in the NL.

That trade I can live with but Theo had a stinker in Arroyo for Pena

1917
05-24-2007, 04:17 PM
That trade I can live with but Theo had a stinker in Aaroyo for Pena

When that was made, I thought it was good, I really thought Pena was going to be a stud if he played full time and got out of the crowded Red OF.

balke
05-24-2007, 04:32 PM
That trade I can live with but Theo had a stinker in Aaroyo for Pena

Yeh, Beckett is injury prone, but he's a stud. The Red Sox would be a lot closer to the Yanks without him. Lowell is doing 3x what everyone expected he would. I would actually say money aside, the Red Sox got the better of that deal by a slight margin.

Arroyo... who knew? I was in utter shock of his stats last season.

Foulke You
05-24-2007, 04:54 PM
That trade I can live with but Theo had a stinker in Arroyo for Pena
That trade was a bit deceptive because of the AL to NL switch. Arroyo is a solid back of the rotation starter in the AL who will go about 10W-10L on most AL teams. However, upon his arrival in Cincy, Arroyo immediately settled into the role of "ace" in the woeful NL Central's basement dwelling Reds. Arroyo didn't suddenly become an ace, his competition went down. Of course, Willy Mo Pena's injury riddled season shined a bigger light on the trade but still, I can't fault Theo for the trade. It certainly isn't hurting the Red Sox pitching staff this year. Is it a trade the Reds came out on top? Yeah, I'd say so but it isn't a real bad stinker.

Dan the Man
05-24-2007, 05:37 PM
He also traded Scott Kazmir to the Devil Rays for Victor Zambrano and Bartolome Fortunato.
The worst part of that trade was that everybody already knew how awful Zambrano was. Most knew that Kazmir would be good, but it's not like Zambrano was even remotely decent.

And speaking of rentals, how about the Astros trading Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen and John Halama to Seattle for Randy Johnson. Granted, Johnson went 10-1 with 4 shutouts with Houston, but he was gone after the year. Even though Freddy and Guillen were traded by the Mariners, they are still high quality players who could have really helped the 'Stros.

SoxSpeed22
05-24-2007, 07:47 PM
On paper the Ritchie deal sucks. But in all honestly, Wells is a below average starter, Fogg is awful, and Sean Lowe has been out of baseball for some time.

Certainly not one of KW's best, but looking back on it now, none of those bums would have helped the White Sox win anything. If anything, Im glad he made the deal so none of them were around later.IMO, if that trade did not happen, the Sox would have won the division in 2003. This is because the 5th starter black hole doesn't go as deep. All Kip Wells had to do was be below-average, compared to a near-automatic loss that the spot had and they could have gotten it done.

eastchicagosoxfan
05-24-2007, 08:38 PM
Going back a few years for this one, but, in 1900, John McGraw traded Amos Russie, who was a washed up future Hall of Famer, to the Reds for a young kid named Mathewson. Big Six, Christy Mathewson, went on to become one of the all-time greats. Russie, who had sat out all of 1899, didn't pitch at all in 1900, and lost his only his only start in the 20th century, in 1901.

Ron Hassey has an interesting trade history. Traded by the Yanks to the Sox in December of 1985, with Joe Cowley for Britt Burns, he was traded back to the Yanks in February of 1986, in a deal involving Neil Allen. In July of 1986, Hassey was sent back to the Sox, by the Yanks,along with Carlos Martinez, for Ron Kittle, Wayne Tolleson, and Joel Skinner.

PKalltheway
05-24-2007, 09:03 PM
How about 2003, when the Pirates essentially gave the Cubs the NL Central title by trading away Aramis Ramirez, Kenny Lofton, and Randall Simon for practically nothing?

Another bad one that to most baseball fans is common knowledge, was when the Mets traded away Nolan Ryan after the 1971 season for Jim Fregosi. The Mets could have potentially won the 1973 World Series if they didn't trade him away.

Also, I'm not too sure whether or not these were all trades, or just free agency, but the Royals, at one point, had Jermaine Dye, Johnny Damon, and Carlos Beltran all in the same outfield.

thomas35forever
05-24-2007, 09:11 PM
How about 2003, when the Pirates essentially gave the Cubs the NL Central title by trading away Aramis Ramirez, Kenny Lofton, and Randall Simon for practically nothing?

Another bad one that to most baseball fans is common knowledge, was when the Mets traded away Nolan Ryan after the 1971 season for Jim Fregosi. The Mets could have potentially won the 1973 World Series if they didn't trade him away.
The Cubs practically acquired a bunch of players anytime they wanted to during the month of August. If Aramis is the only guy part of those deals still on the roster, then that '03 team was one helluva fluke.

Bobby Jenks
05-24-2007, 10:46 PM
Jeff Bagwell for Larry Anderson or Randy Johnson,Brian Holman and Gene Harris for Mark Langston. Langston was a summer rental and Johnson was dominant until just a few years ago

Tragg
05-24-2007, 10:55 PM
Mariners made a horrible trade when they traded Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe for Slocumb.
The crime of that trade was that Ron Scheuler was a putz and refused to trade his top players to AL teams in the middle of the season....if Healthcliffe Slocumb brought that haul, I think we could have gotten that for Roberto Hernandez.

And without having a "White Flag" (or do the rest of the white flag for more players).

Bobby Jenks
05-24-2007, 10:57 PM
Also,Milt Pappas for Frank Robinson. Pappas went 30-29 in 2 seasons before he was traded. Robinson went on to win the AL MVP while winning the triple crown.

gobears1987
05-24-2007, 10:57 PM
How about Esteban Loaiza for Jose Contreras? We really fleeced the YankME$.

Bobby Jenks
05-24-2007, 11:00 PM
I forget the players,but whoever the Yankees traded Fred McGriff for

Chisox35
05-24-2007, 11:19 PM
Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps. As George Costanza said, how could you trade Buhner for Ken Phelps?

goofymsfan
05-24-2007, 11:40 PM
Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps. As George Costanza said, how could you trade Buhner for Ken Phelps?

LOL they still show that scene every once in a while at Safeco.

eriqjaffe
05-24-2007, 11:53 PM
Harold Baines has been involved in a couple of lopsided deals:

August 29, 1990: Traded by the Texas Rangers to the Oakland Athletics for players to be named later. The Oakland Athletics sent Joe Bitker (September 4, 1990) and Scott Chiamparino (September 4, 1990) to the Texas Rangers to complete the trade.

January 14, 1993: Traded by the Oakland Athletics to the Baltimore Orioles for Bobby Chouinard and Allen Plaster.

WhiteSoxJunkie
05-25-2007, 12:43 AM
Why is there no mention of Sosa for Bell?

ComiskeyBrewer
05-25-2007, 12:56 AM
Navarro to the Brewers for Valentin & Eldred (not sure if there were other players involved in that deal, but they were the principals).

Why any even remotely sane GM would have wanted to acquire Jaime Navarro is, to quote Egon Spengler, "beyond my capacity for rational thought"...

You have to remember Sal Bando is the guy who explained letting paul molitor walk because he was "just a DH". :angry: He is the main reason why the Brewers were so horrible from 1992 til 1999.

WhiteSox5187
05-25-2007, 03:38 AM
Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps. As George Costanza said, how could you trade Buhner for Ken Phelps?
It was Frank Costanza who said that.

Kudos to eastchicagofa for pulling out the big guns and going with the Christy Matthewson trade, but as I recall wasn't there some funny buisness with that trade? Weren't the Reds essentially a syndicate of the Giants at the time?


In fact...I actually thing you have it wrong and maybe I do too...didn't Matthewson end his career with the Reds? I think he was signed by Giants when they had a lousy owner, but then they brought in McGraw and he used him right...Lemme get back to you tommorrow on that.

eastchicagosoxfan
05-25-2007, 04:53 AM
It was Frank Costanza who said that.

Kudos to eastchicagofa for pulling out the big guns and going with the Christy Matthewson trade, but as I recall wasn't there some funny buisness with that trade? Weren't the Reds essentially a syndicate of the Giants at the time?


In fact...I actually thing you have it wrong and maybe I do too...didn't Matthewson end his career with the Reds? I think he was signed by Giants when they had a lousy owner, but then they brought in McGraw and he used him right...Lemme get back to you tommorrow on that.
The first Mathewson trade was legit. It was in 1900, not 1899, as I indictated. Mathewson, indeed ended his career with the Reds, traded in 1916. He was traded then, because he wanted to manage, and a trade to the Reds allowed him to do that. McGraw and Mathewson were longtime friends, and they and their wives shared an apartment for several years. In 1919, as a sidebar, the Reds traded the infamous Hal Chase to the Giants. It's been speculated that McGraw believed he could show up Mathewson, and " teach " his former pitcher how to handle a troublesome player. McGraw failed, as Chase was simply a dirty cheat, who had no integrity.

I believe the trade you're thinking of was in 1899, involving the Louisville Colonels, and Pittsburg Pirates. The Pirates received, among others, HOnus Wagner, Deacon Phillipe, Chief Zimmer, Rube Waddell, Tommy Leach, and the man who would become their longtime manager, Fred Clarke, for $25000, and basically, Jack Chesbro. In March of 1900, Jack Chesbro was assigned to the Pirates, when the Colonels were broken up. I believe, by that time, that Barney Dreyfuss, longtime owner of the Pirates, was also involved with the ownership in Louisville.
Unfortunately, time will not permit me to recall all of the dealings involving the old Baltimore Orioles, and the New York Superba's. Both teams were owned by the same person. The Suprba's, later known as the Dodgers, got all the good players. McGraw, as manager of the Orioles, was left with virtually nothing. He still got a decent finish out of those guys, I think.
One more, I think Buffalo, had a Big Four, their names escape me. Someone bought the whole team, and traded, or assigned those four players to his own team. That was in the 1880's, I think.

Fenway
05-25-2007, 06:06 AM
That trade was a bit deceptive because of the AL to NL switch. Arroyo is a solid back of the rotation starter in the AL who will go about 10W-10L on most AL teams. However, upon his arrival in Cincy, Arroyo immediately settled into the role of "ace" in the woeful NL Central's basement dwelling Reds. Arroyo didn't suddenly become an ace, his competition went down. Of course, Willy Mo Pena's injury riddled season shined a bigger light on the trade but still, I can't fault Theo for the trade. It certainly isn't hurting the Red Sox pitching staff this year. Is it a trade the Reds came out on top? Yeah, I'd say so but it isn't a real bad stinker.

Problem with Pena is he needs at bats and can not be sent down. He can be had for a bag of balls.

delben91
05-25-2007, 06:47 AM
Karchner for Garland.

TommyJohn
05-25-2007, 07:55 AM
Aaron Robinson for Billy Pierce and Joe Tipton for Nellie Fox turned out
pretty badly for the Tigers and A's.

Of course, there was also Johnny Callison for Gene Freese, Earl Battey
for Roy Sievers and Norm Cash for Minnie Minoso. Veeck should have
instead just asked for a wrecking ball for Comiskey Park.

Hitmen77
05-25-2007, 09:05 AM
IMO, if that trade did not happen, the Sox would have won the division in 2003. This is because the 5th starter black hole doesn't go as deep. All Kip Wells had to do was be below-average, compared to a near-automatic loss that the spot had and they could have gotten it done.

Ouch. I remember that. The Sox finished 4 games back. Even a so-so Wells and Fogg could have made up that difference. The toughest part of '03 for me was thinking at the time that the Sox could have gone pretty far in the playoffs if they had made it because they had Mark Buehrle, Bartolo Colon, and Loaiza (in his 20-win, career year).

How about 2003, when the Pirates essentially gave the Cubs the NL Central title by trading away Aramis Ramirez, Kenny Lofton, and Randall Simon for practically nothing?


That was a pretty stupid trade on the Pirates part. I understand the part about trading players you are going to lose to FA - but you're supposed to actually get talent in return. Not just another failed Cub prospect in Bobby Hill.

FedEx227
05-25-2007, 09:09 AM
That was a pretty stupid trade on the Pirates part. I understand the part about trading players you are going to lose to FA - but you're supposed to actually get talent in return. Not just another failed Cub prospect in Bobby Hill.

Cubs Receive: Aramis Ramirez, Kenny Lofton and Cash
Pirates Receive: Jose Hernandez, Matt Bruback and Bobby Hill

Then to get Simon

Cubs Receive: Randall Simon
Pirates Receive: Ray Sadler

Hitmen77
05-25-2007, 09:27 AM
Cubs Receive: Aramis Ramirez, Kenny Lofton and Cash
Pirates Receive: Jose Hernandez, Matt Bruback and Bobby Hill

Then to get Simon

Cubs Receive: Randall Simon
Pirates Receive: Ray Sadler

Wow, that first trade is pretty brutal by the Pirates. Two impact players from their starting lineup for nothing.

D. TODD
05-25-2007, 09:32 AM
What was the infamous Cub trade with the Cards involving Lou Brock. I think it was some jamoch like Ernie Brollio or something like that for Brock. I recall hearing this trade lamented by Cub fans quite often when I was younger.

palehozenychicty
05-25-2007, 09:45 AM
You might wanna check the Kazmir deal, it was the GM before Minaya who made that deal.


Jim Duquette made that deal, and now he is the director of player personnel with the O's. Now THAT was a horrible deal.

FedEx227
05-25-2007, 09:51 AM
Jim Duquette made that deal, and now he is the director of player personnel with the O's. Now THAT was a horrible deal.

Still don't understand it to this day. It was desperation, but they didn't even get anybody decent for him. I understand if you overpay for maybe a 1-year rental to try and bump you to the next level... but Victor?!

PKalltheway
05-25-2007, 11:07 AM
The Mike Cameron for Paul Konerko trade with the Reds during the 1998-99 offseason is becoming more lopsided with each passing year. I love every minute of it too.:D: :cool:

FedEx227
05-25-2007, 11:10 AM
The Mike Cameron for Paul Konerko trade with the Reds is becoming more lopsided with each passing year. I love every minute of it too.:D: :cool:

To be fair though, they did get Griffey for Cameron/Tomko/throwin, so it wasn't a complete loss for them.

Fenway
05-25-2007, 11:20 AM
The trade that Comiskey DIDN'T make in December 1919

Shoeless Joe to the Red Sox for George Herman Ruth

The papers were drawn up but the Old Roman got cold feet

Boston then talked to the Yankees and we know how THAT turned out

The Racehorse
05-25-2007, 11:30 AM
The trade that Comiskey DIDN'T make in December 1919

Shoeless Joe to the Red Sox for George Herman Ruth

The papers were drawn up but the Old Roman got cold feet

Boston then talked to the Yankees and we know how THAT turned out

You know fenway, if a time machine ever becomes reality and I'm the pilot, that is first thing I fix, er, I mean correct by going straight to Commy.

:D:

Hitmen77
05-25-2007, 11:36 AM
Sometimes it takes years for trades to work out. In '77 the Sox traded popular SS Bucky Dent to the Yankees for one-year rental Oscar Gamble and some minor leaguer named LaMarr Hoyt. Gamble provided fireworks for us in '77, but in '78, he was gone and Hoyt was still years away from doing anything for the Sox while Dent hit that dramatic HR against the BoSox and later was the World Series MVP. So, it looked like a pretty bad trade for the Sox.

But, then Hoyt helped power the Sox to the '83 AL West title. So, the Dent trade didn't look so bad after all. After '84, the Sox traded Hoyt to the Padres for some unproven 20-yr old prospect named Ozzie Guillen. In '85, Hoyt had another good year and the Chicago media was crowing with delight over the bad trade the Sox made. But, after '85 Hoyt was busted for drugs and too fat and his career was quickly over. As for that skinny, light-hitting SS the Sox got in that "bad" trade. I think he won the '85 ROY or something and then I'm not sure what ever became of him.:D:

FedEx227
05-25-2007, 11:39 AM
But, after '85 Hoyt was busted for drugs and too fat and his career was quickly over. As for that skinny, light-hitting SS the Sox got in that "bad" trade. I think he won the '85 ROY or something and then I'm not sure what ever became of him.:D:

I heard he caught on with the Devil Rays in 2000.

seventyseven
05-25-2007, 01:18 PM
Boston then talked to the Yankees and we know how THAT turned out

http://www.corante.com/mooreslore/archives/images/homer%20simpson.gif

"Ooh! Ooh! How'd it turn out? How'd it turn out?"

WhiteSox5187
05-25-2007, 02:26 PM
Sometimes it takes years for trades to work out. In '77 the Sox traded popular SS Bucky Dent to the Yankees for one-year rental Oscar Gamble and some minor leaguer named LaMarr Hoyt. Gamble provided fireworks for us in '77, but in '78, he was gone and Hoyt was still years away from doing anything for the Sox while Dent hit that dramatic HR against the BoSox and later was the World Series MVP. So, it looked like a pretty bad trade for the Sox.

But, then Hoyt helped power the Sox to the '83 AL West title. So, the Dent trade didn't look so bad after all. After '84, the Sox traded Hoyt to the Padres for some unproven 20-yr old prospect named Ozzie Guillen. In '85, Hoyt had another good year and the Chicago media was crowing with delight over the bad trade the Sox made. But, after '85 Hoyt was busted for drugs and too fat and his career was quickly over. As for that skinny, light-hitting SS the Sox got in that "bad" trade. I think he won the '85 ROY or something and then I'm not sure what ever became of him.:D:
That was one of the best trades by Roland Heymond. Anytime you make a trade that helps you know (Gamble was a key componet of the '77 Hitmen) and later (No AL West Championship without Hoyt) and getting Ozzie in return is just icing on the cake.

Fenway
05-25-2007, 02:39 PM
http://www.corante.com/mooreslore/archives/images/homer%20simpson.gif

"Ooh! Ooh! How'd it turn out? How'd it turn out?"

Dan Shaughnessy put his kids thru college :lol:

WhiteSoxJunkie
05-26-2007, 12:08 AM
The Devil Rays traded Bobby Abreu to the Phillies for Kevin Stocker.

soxwon
06-01-2007, 09:53 PM
Im one of a few who loved the WHITE FLAG DEAL!!!

WhiteSox5187
06-01-2007, 10:59 PM
The first Mathewson trade was legit. It was in 1900, not 1899, as I indictated. Mathewson, indeed ended his career with the Reds, traded in 1916. He was traded then, because he wanted to manage, and a trade to the Reds allowed him to do that. McGraw and Mathewson were longtime friends, and they and their wives shared an apartment for several years. In 1919, as a sidebar, the Reds traded the infamous Hal Chase to the Giants. It's been speculated that McGraw believed he could show up Mathewson, and " teach " his former pitcher how to handle a troublesome player. McGraw failed, as Chase was simply a dirty cheat, who had no integrity.

I believe the trade you're thinking of was in 1899, involving the Louisville Colonels, and Pittsburg Pirates. The Pirates received, among others, HOnus Wagner, Deacon Phillipe, Chief Zimmer, Rube Waddell, Tommy Leach, and the man who would become their longtime manager, Fred Clarke, for $25000, and basically, Jack Chesbro. In March of 1900, Jack Chesbro was assigned to the Pirates, when the Colonels were broken up. I believe, by that time, that Barney Dreyfuss, longtime owner of the Pirates, was also involved with the ownership in Louisville.
Unfortunately, time will not permit me to recall all of the dealings involving the old Baltimore Orioles, and the New York Superba's. Both teams were owned by the same person. The Suprba's, later known as the Dodgers, got all the good players. McGraw, as manager of the Orioles, was left with virtually nothing. He still got a decent finish out of those guys, I think.
One more, I think Buffalo, had a Big Four, their names escape me. Someone bought the whole team, and traded, or assigned those four players to his own team. That was in the 1880's, I think.
:mg: :worship:

Wow, you know your 19th Century baseball! I'll have to re-read the Old Ballgame, but wasn't there something where Christy Matthewson signed on with the A's then before McGraw came over the Giants? But by this time the owner of the Giants (I forget his name, but he was a cheap skate who was essentially running the Giants as a syndicate club for the Cardinals) had gotten wind of it and nixed the whole deal? I have to re-read that. I know he finished with the Reds because he wanted to manage. Again, let me get back to you on that.

whitesoxfan1986
06-02-2007, 12:53 AM
Oliver Perez and Roberto Hernandez for Xavier Nady. This looks more and more like a fleecing for the Mets with each start that Perez has made this year. I have wanted Oliver Perez on the Sox since last spring. I believe Coop could have done the same things with him that the Mets pitching coach has done for him. Last March while I was in California for spring break I caught a ST game on ESPN in which Perez was pitching. I saw the numbers on him for '05 and they were sucky. The announcers said that his main problems were mechanical and he had a different arm angle and release point on almost every pitch. Then Perez got sent to the minors last June and I was thinking to myself, "Kenny, get this guy on the south side pronto, I think he could be had for nothing." The trade mentioned above then confirmed my thoughts. Perez's numbers in 2004 didn't lie, and he has now turned into an ace for the Mets. Really, even though Hernandez left the Mets, to think that they could get him AND Perez for a 4th OF is insane.

Bobby Jenks
06-02-2007, 01:01 PM
:mg: :worship:

Wow, you know your 19th Century baseball! I'll have to re-read the Old Ballgame, but wasn't there something where Christy Matthewson signed on with the A's then before McGraw came over the Giants? But by this time the owner of the Giants (I forget his name, but he was a cheap skate who was essentially running the Giants as a syndicate club for the Cardinals) had gotten wind of it and nixed the whole deal? I have to re-read that. I know he finished with the Reds because he wanted to manage. Again, let me get back to you on that.


Actually the wagner"trade" wasn't a trade at all. The Colonels were contracted and Wagner was assigned to Pittsburgh.

gosiu
06-02-2007, 01:11 PM
The Devil Rays traded Bobby Abreu to the Phillies for Kevin Stocker.
And the Devil Rays got Abreu from Houston in the expansion draft. Another quality player given up by Houston.

TheOldRoman
06-02-2007, 02:36 PM
The Giants traded three, young, high-ceiling prospects for a one-year rental catcher. It wasn't even the final piece of the puzzle they needed for a championship team (needed a RF).
AJ wasn't a one year rental. He had several years left before arbitration. He was only on the Giants in 04 because they didn't offer him a contract.

gosiu
06-02-2007, 07:31 PM
To be fair though, they did get Griffey for Cameron/Tomko/throwin, so it wasn't a complete loss for them.
And Sean Casey, the reason Konerko couldn't make the team, was doing just fine in CIN for several years, albeit with no playoff appearances.