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View Full Version : Ozzie - bullpen could see changes


HotelWhiteSox
05-21-2007, 02:34 AM
I like this, just a little bit of a message, watch your asses or you might be on a bus seat sooner than later.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070520soxwilliams,1,693689.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

I don't think we have to worry about Aardsma, maybe it was just something with his former team, but for some of the other guys, looks like they may be on bought time. My guess for most likely candidate to be sent down would be Sisco. I liked the Sisco deal, but lately I cringe when he gets into a game, and I did check Charlotte's site last week, and some of the pitchers do have nice stats. I guess Boone is an obvious guy too, but I don't mind him IF used in the right situation.

Predict, discuss, argue and such

Grzegorz
05-21-2007, 05:42 AM
I cheer Ozzie on this one. The bullpen has been disappointing lately and the manager called them out.

I also agree with Kenny Williams when he voices his displeasure and embarrassment with team performance.

Call the players out, hold them accountable.

Chez
05-21-2007, 08:45 AM
I don't have much faith now in Sisco and I've never been a fan of Boone Logan -- too many walks. Returning Masset to the bullpen will help, but perhaps it's too much to ask to have all seven relievers throwing well at the same time. With our starters regularly getting us into the 6th and 7th, do we really still need 12 pitchers?

The Immigrant
05-21-2007, 08:58 AM
Sisco and Logan both belong in Charlotte, but Sisco is the only one I can see heading to Charlotte soon. Logan's had some decent outings lately.

Plus, no way Ozzie allows two of his loogies to be taken away.

ondafarm
05-21-2007, 09:15 AM
Sisco should be down learning to become a Randy Johnson-esque starter.

FedEx227
05-21-2007, 10:36 AM
Sisco should be down learning to become a Randy Johnson-esque starter.

And to learn a friggin' decent release point. The same problems he had in KC and translating over here.

palehozenychicty
05-21-2007, 10:42 AM
Sisco should be down learning to become a Randy Johnson-esque starter.


Yes he should.

INSox56
05-21-2007, 10:44 AM
From what I saw and heard after the game (didn't see all of the game live), while Boone did miss his spot, the pitch was low and away, not flat down the pipe. So it was just a really good piece of hitting by a great hitter. Overall I think he's done a damn fine job this year. Aardsma has hit a roadblock, I'm not worried yet. Sisco on the other hand...I never know what to expect. Worse things it seems lately.

I don't have much faith now in Sisco and I've never been a fan of Boone Logan -- too many walks. Logan has only 3 walks in 11.2 IP this year....?

ondafarm
05-21-2007, 10:53 AM
From what I saw and heard after the game (didn't see all of the game live), while Boone did miss his spot, the pitch was low and away, not flat down the pipe. So it was just a really good piece of hitting by a great hitter. Overall I think he's done a damn fine job this year. Aardsma has hit a roadblock, I'm not worried yet. Sisco on the other hand...I never know what to expect. Worse things it seems lately.

Logan has only 3 walks in 11.2 IP this year....?

Logan has the arm, he still needs to learn a few pitching lessons though.

LESSON #1: DO NOT THROW A COOKIE TO A GOOD HITTER ON A FULL COUNT.

He threw one to Lee, he threw one to Hafner last year. Good hitters don't miss those pitches and hitting a homer is a lot worse than putting the guy on or even walking in a single run.

balke
05-21-2007, 11:01 AM
Would the Sox think about calling up Carlos Vasquez or Brett Prinz just to see what they can do? Vasquez's #'s have looked real good down there.

jabrch
05-21-2007, 11:25 AM
Would the Sox think about calling up Carlos Vasquez or Brett Prinz just to see what they can do? Vasquez's #'s have looked real good down there.

I haven't seen Prinz this year - but he was unimpressive 3 years ago and is now over 30. I don't see him being the answer. I'd rather see Haeger or Vazquez.

ND_Sox_Fan
05-21-2007, 11:45 AM
do we really still need 12 pitchers?

Only if Ozzie continues to play the Lefty-Righty-Lefty match-up game.

I agree, send Sisco down and get him regular work - making him a starter would be great as well.

UserNameBlank
05-21-2007, 11:55 AM
Sisco should be down learning to become a Randy Johnson-esque starter.
I've been saying this for a while now. Andy needs to be down there starting and working on that delivery. The Sox have enough pen arms and shouldn't skip a beat with Sisco in Triple A.

sox1970
05-21-2007, 12:01 PM
I've been saying this for a while now. Andy needs to be down there starting and working on that delivery. The Sox have enough pen arms and shouldn't skip a beat with Sisco in Triple A.

The problem with Sisco is he is too big. Too many moving parts. Unless your name is Randy Johnson, it's very tough to keep good mechanics, especially under pressure. I just wouldn't trust this guy come September, much less October. I'd have no problem with sending him down, and see what Carlos Vasquez can do for a while.

palehozenychicty
05-21-2007, 12:03 PM
The problem with Sisco is he is too big. Too many moving parts. Unless your name is Randy Johnson, it's very tough to keep good mechanics, especially under pressure. I just wouldn't trust this guy come September, much less October. I'd have no problem with sending him down, and see what Carlos Vasquez can do for a while.


A certain team that plays in the UC needs a 4 to help Ben Wallace. :smile:

INSox56
05-21-2007, 12:25 PM
Logan has the arm, he still needs to learn a few pitching lessons though.

LESSON #1: DO NOT THROW A COOKIE TO A GOOD HITTER ON A FULL COUNT.

He threw one to Lee, he threw one to Hafner last year. Good hitters don't miss those pitches and hitting a homer is a lot worse than putting the guy on or even walking in a single run.Like I said before...that may be Lee's sweet spot, low and away, but hardly a cookie right down the pipe. That ball wasn't down the middle, look at the replays, AJ was set up somewhat high inside and he missed his spot and threw outside corner, knee high. Not a horrible pitch or a cookie, just could be a sweet spot for Lee.

102605
05-21-2007, 12:43 PM
Sisco really had good stuff. He just needs to fine tune things.

UserNameBlank
05-21-2007, 01:08 PM
The problem with Sisco is he is too big. Too many moving parts. Unless your name is Randy Johnson, it's very tough to keep good mechanics, especially under pressure. I just wouldn't trust this guy come September, much less October. I'd have no problem with sending him down, and see what Carlos Vasquez can do for a while.
He does look like he has a hell of a time keeping his body under control, falling way off the mound and even falling down to the ground once.

I just don't think he's cut out to be a reliever. Maybe he would benefit from warming up longer and pitching deeper into games. His upside is undeniable, he's a young hard-thorwing lefty, he's had success starting before, we have 6 other relievers on the team, and he only cost the Sox Ross Gload. IMO, all signs point to Charlotte's starting rotation. I'm sure the Sox could afford to send Nunez to the pen or elsewhere.

ondafarm
05-21-2007, 01:15 PM
Like I said before...that may be Lee's sweet spot, low and away, but hardly a cookie right down the pipe. That ball wasn't down the middle, look at the replays, AJ was set up somewhat high inside and he missed his spot and threw outside corner, knee high. Not a horrible pitch or a cookie, just could be a sweet spot for Lee.

Your manager when you start or your catcher on the next guy will tell you opposing hitter's sweet spots. Throwing into hit, including missing in that direction is still a very important lesson for a young pitcher and one Logan hasn't learnt.

WhiteSox5187
05-21-2007, 01:37 PM
Outside of Jenks there is no one in the bullpen I feel comfortable with when Ozzie gives 'em the ball. Relievers go through stretches though where they are lights out one minute and then crap the next. So I think a guy like MacDougal will be okay and I think Aardsma is going to be hit or miss the rest of the year, but Sisco hasn't shown me anything. He needs to go.

oeo
05-21-2007, 02:31 PM
From what I saw and heard after the game (didn't see all of the game live), while Boone did miss his spot, the pitch was low and away, not flat down the pipe. So it was just a really good piece of hitting by a great hitter. Overall I think he's done a damn fine job this year. Aardsma has hit a roadblock, I'm not worried yet. Sisco on the other hand...I never know what to expect. Worse things it seems lately.

Logan has only 3 walks in 11.2 IP this year....?

Logan's bigger problem this year is giving up big hits. He's had some big strikeouts, but he's also been garbage. You don't know what to expect from him, that's not a guy I want out there in a game that matters.

If Boone and Sisco continue to give nothing, Carlos Vasquez should be given a shot.

Like I said before...that may be Lee's sweet spot, low and away, but hardly a cookie right down the pipe. That ball wasn't down the middle, look at the replays, AJ was set up somewhat high inside and he missed his spot and threw outside corner, knee high. Not a horrible pitch or a cookie, just could be a sweet spot for Lee.

In all fairness to Boone, on a regular day, that ball is not a homerun. Still can't stand the guy, though.

CWSpalehoseCWS
05-21-2007, 02:53 PM
Would the Sox think about calling up Carlos Vasquez or Brett Prinz just to see what they can do? Vasquez's #'s have looked real good down there.

I was thinking Haeger or Bukvich.

TomBradley72
05-21-2007, 02:58 PM
The problem with Sisco is he is too big. Too many moving parts. Unless your name is Randy Johnson, it's very tough to keep good mechanics, especially under pressure. I just wouldn't trust this guy come September, much less October. I'd have no problem with sending him down, and see what Carlos Vasquez can do for a while.

Agreed...any illusions that Sisco could be an impact player are going away. There's reason he had a 7.10 ERA across 65 appearances for KC last year and that it only took Ross Gload to get him.

FedEx227
05-21-2007, 03:04 PM
Agreed...any illusions that Sisco could be an impact player are going away. There's reason he had a 7.10 ERA across 65 appearances for KC last year and that it only took Ross Gload to get him.

Well the reason is still pretty similar, his arm slot and release point is god awful. Watch tape of him when hes on and when hes not and you'll see a world of difference. Like a poster mentioned above, he gets himself out of control and starts flailing around, dropping him arm and releasing the ball ridiculously late. He got a lot of really bad habits in a Royals organization that didn't seem to care for fine tuning.

If you look across the country at the Mets, they are starting to work with Burgos who had a very similar problem of releasing the ball way too late and moving way too much. He's starting to turn the corner a bit.

If anybody needs some of that Cooper magic it's Sisco.

UserNameBlank
05-21-2007, 04:23 PM
Agreed...any illusions that Sisco could be an impact player are going away. There's reason he had a 7.10 ERA across 65 appearances for KC last year and that it only took Ross Gload to get him.
I don't think Andy's potential is any "illusion." Look at his stats (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/S/Andy-Sisco.shtml). He was pulled out of the starting rotation in High A at 22 and thrown into a major league bullpen. Look at those K and BB numbers in the minors starting vs. the majors in the pen. It is possible that he would be an entirely different pitcher right now had the Royals not moved him to the pen. Some guys just aren't effective relievers. Certainly at 24, it's worth a shot sending him to Charlotte's rotation and seeing if he can get his career back on track.

Daver
05-21-2007, 04:34 PM
The problem with Sisco is he is too big. Too many moving parts. Unless your name is Randy Johnson, it's very tough to keep good mechanics, especially under pressure. I just wouldn't trust this guy come September, much less October. I'd have no problem with sending him down, and see what Carlos Vasquez can do for a while.

Huh? You make zero sense.

Sisco needs to spend some quality time in the minors working under the tutelage of Kirk Champion.

sox1970
05-21-2007, 04:53 PM
Huh? You make zero sense.

Sisco needs to spend some quality time in the minors working under the tutelage of Kirk Champion.

I thought I made perfect sense. His mechanics are all over the place. That's why his control sucks.

By the way, if the Cubs can send down Neal Cotts (which they did), the Sox can send this guy down.

Lip Man 1
05-21-2007, 06:10 PM
The Sox just waived an infielder (Lopez) off the 40 man roster. He was claimed by the Reds. Mark Gonzales of the Tribune is speculating it could be because the Sox about to add a relief pitcher.

He doesn't say if it would be via trade or someone up from the minors.

Lip

JB98
05-21-2007, 06:30 PM
Well the reason is still pretty similar, his arm slot and release point is god awful. Watch tape of him when hes on and when hes not and you'll see a world of difference. Like a poster mentioned above, he gets himself out of control and starts flailing around, dropping him arm and releasing the ball ridiculously late. He got a lot of really bad habits in a Royals organization that didn't seem to care for fine tuning.

If you look across the country at the Mets, they are starting to work with Burgos who had a very similar problem of releasing the ball way too late and moving way too much. He's starting to turn the corner a bit.

If anybody needs some of that Cooper magic it's Sisco.

Sisco started out in the Cubs organization. He was a Rule 5 pick of the Royals. Those two organizations aren't exactly known for turning out great pitchers. No wonder his delivery is so inconsistent.

soxinem1
05-21-2007, 06:40 PM
Yes he should.

I doubt Sisco will ever be a regular major league starter.

One of the reasons the cubs and KC gave up on him was because of his lack of satamina. He barely averaged five innings a start in his minor league days. KC always envisioned making him a starter one day, but soon realized that he usually had enough after an inning or so.

In his defense, the lefty-righty-lefty-righty-lefty-righty crap is getting ridiculous, and it has increased more so as the season has gone on. I personally cannot stand that. Guys like MacDougal, Thornton, Sisco, and Aardsma should not have to be platoon pitchers. Other than Aardsma, all of them have pitched fewer than an inning an outing.

billyvsox
05-21-2007, 07:27 PM
There is a reason why the stinking Royals got rid of both MacDougal and Sisco. Do you think if they were half decent most of the time the pitching poor Royals would trade them??

Sisco belongs in AAA, and MacD needs to learn to throw consistantly or we should get rid of him. Aardsma is nothing more then a decent mop-up guy who throws hard and can occasionaly be superb (reminds be of Bill Simas).

I think Thornton will be OK with regular outings (although Ozzie never uses him). Logan can excel pitching to only lefties to get a big out (he has proven this), otherwise he cnat be counted on to get through a whole inning or 2.
Jenks has proven to be solid.

In conclusion, our bullpen is dramatically OVERRATED, and the left-right-left thing has to stop. It is relying on too many pitchers being good on the same night. Plus it is proven that relievers can be effective if they start innings instead of always coming into jams. This is the reason for the high walk totals in my opinion.

MRM
05-21-2007, 09:00 PM
There is a reason why the stinking Royals got rid of both MacDougal and Sisco. Do you think if they were half decent most of the time the pitching poor Royals would trade them??

What kind of logic is THAT? "Half decent" players don't get traded?

Have you forgotten that Macdougal was a darn good closer for the Royals before he got hurt? Or that he was a lights out setup man after being traded to the Sox last year?

I wonder why the "Pitching poor" Rangers traded away "half decent" pitchers like Danks and Masset for one "maybe decent someday" pitcher? Or how the pitching RICH White Sox seem to keep coming up on the better end of these deals?

UserNameBlank
05-21-2007, 09:05 PM
What kind of logic is THAT? "Half decent" players don't get traded?

Have you forgotten that Macdougal was a darn good closer for the Royals before he got hurt? Or that he was a lights out setup man after being traded to the Sox last year?

I wonder why the "Pitching poor" Rangers traded away "half decent" pitchers like Danks and Masset for one "maybe decent someday" pitcher? Or how the pitching RICH White Sox seem to keep coming up on the better end of these deals?
Wow. That dude got owned.

sox1970
05-21-2007, 09:06 PM
Couple more scoreless innings at Charlotte for Carlos Vasquez tonight.

In his 8 games for Charlotte--12.2 innings, 0 earned runs, 5 hits. 4 BB, 3 K's

Ryan Bukvich also had two scoreless innings.

Paulino Reynoso walked 3 in a third of an inning.

ondafarm
05-21-2007, 10:13 PM
There is a reason why the stinking Royals got rid of both MacDougal and Sisco. Do you think if they were half decent most of the time the pitching poor Royals would trade them??. . .

Your conclusion is based on the assumption that every team treats all of their pitchers the exact same way and has the same likelihood of training them well.

This is not true. Pitching rich organizations tend to have the best pitching coaches. Pitching poor organizations tend to have poor pitching coaches. Most organizations have similar levels of pitching talent, at least raw talent, but training a guy to become a major league pitcher tends to take years and at least two good coaches. Sometimes one of those will be a veteran, sometimes somebody at spring training but typically two good pitching coaches. If the Royals ain't got the guys to teach then no matter how good they draft, their development will fall short.

A. Cavatica
05-21-2007, 10:59 PM
Dewon Day is another candidate for a callup: 45 strikeouts in 23 innings for Birmingham. Unfortunately, he has 25 hits and 12 walks to go along with those K's. I still like him better than Bukvich.