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View Full Version : *Official* 5-13 Only three hits?! Postgame Thread


DMarte708
05-13-2007, 05:58 PM
Nick Masset obviously doesn't belong in the major leagues right now.

Our offense continues its month long 'struggle.' I'm becoming worried that it's more than a mere slump...

MarySwiss
05-13-2007, 05:58 PM
To quote the movie Titanic, "Is there anyone alive out there?"

Anyway: Losing Ugly (TBGR) (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/../rwas/index.php?category=4&id=3366)

whitesoxfan
05-13-2007, 06:11 PM
This game just needs to be erased from my mind as soon as possible. The Bulls winning and Gordon winning the Cup race was nice.

Let's take 2 of 3 from the Yanks.

itsnotrequired
05-13-2007, 06:14 PM
Forgettable.

Sig update time...

QCIASOXFAN
05-13-2007, 06:22 PM
[quote=DMarte708;1571384]Boone Logan obviously doesn't belong in the major leagues right now. quote]
Had to adjust that for you.

hi im skot
05-13-2007, 06:31 PM
To paraphrase Norm MacDonald-

Happy Mother's Day, Mom; hope you like crap.

LongLiveFisk
05-13-2007, 06:36 PM
Well that sucked. :mad:

Now I'm really glad I didn't buy those tickets from a co-worker for today. Mom deserves better than this performance.

Let's hope it was the pink bats. :tongue:

ND_Sox_Fan
05-13-2007, 06:37 PM
Just got back from that display of awfulness.

Series against Kansas City should wake up the offense - even if it is scoring 4+ runs.

8 runs in 3 games against KC is embarrassing.

WSox73
05-13-2007, 06:43 PM
David DeJesus 4 hits.

Chicago White Sox 3 hits. :angry: :(:

It's getting a little old.

ondafarm
05-13-2007, 06:43 PM
Nick Masset obviously doesn't belong in the major leagues right now.

Our offense continues its month long 'struggle.' I'm becoming worried that it's more than a mere slump...


I think those are some awfully snap judgements made about a team which started today's game having won 4 games in a row.

Corlose 15
05-13-2007, 06:50 PM
This act is getting tiresome. Somebody change the channel.

ND_Sox_Fan
05-13-2007, 06:59 PM
Nick Masset obviously doesn't belong in the major leagues right now.

Masset just struggled with his control - he was around the plate, just not over it. He may also have been slightly off after pitching last night.

To say he should go to the minors for it is a bit of an overreaction.

HITMEN OF 77
05-13-2007, 07:19 PM
The bright side, we've won 6 of 8. Let's take the series agains the Yanks now.

BoysMom3
05-13-2007, 07:28 PM
That was brutal. So on to the next!

The Immigrant
05-13-2007, 07:29 PM
The A's just tied the Indians in the bottom of the ninth on a 2-run homerun by Milton Bradley with two outs. Hopefully they pull out a win in extras and the Twins (finally) beat the Tigers.

I'll withhold judgment on the Sox' performance today. Every year they get one free pass from me, and today was one of those days.

EDIT: the A's just won on a three run jack by Cust in the bottom of the ninth.

balke
05-13-2007, 07:55 PM
Both Masset and Logan deserve to be in the big leagues. Masset didn't have anything going for him today, and I think the Sox didn't think the game was worth burning through relievers with when already down by 4 with the worst hitting lineup in the majors. Oh well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

SoxxoS
05-13-2007, 08:01 PM
Worrying about Masset is legit - His minor league numbers are nothing special...and he might "look" like Bobby Jenks, his stuff sure isn't.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Nick-Masset.shtml

ChicagoG19
05-13-2007, 08:09 PM
I was at the bulls game and checking up on the sox game every 15 minutes or so. I see 5-1, then 9-1, then 11- 1 and I was wondering what was going on. Today was a bitter sweet day indeed. Oh well, hopefully we can shut down the yankees.

A. Cavatica
05-13-2007, 08:16 PM
Glad I missed this one. :D:

INSox56
05-13-2007, 08:52 PM
Definitely glad I was busy today...and that I was able to sell my tickets. Still pretty worried about the god damn offense though. Even though we've won a bit lately, we still haven't looked all that good on the offensive side of the ball. 2 Strikeouts by Riske business today? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: This is getting depressing....our pitchers aren't always going to keep them at 3 runs, guys....

Hitmen77
05-13-2007, 09:17 PM
Wow, what a stinker that I'm glad I missed. 11-1 losses happen. Our pitching has been great overall and every staff will have days like this. This is not as painful to me as the ones we lost with 2 outs in the 9th to the A's and Tigers.

But, two main things bother me. First and foremost: Continued CRAPPY hitting. :angry: Wake up, offense, wake up!!!! Paulie, Dye, Crede hitting about .200? :angry: :angry:

2nd thing that bothers me is the Sox inability (so far in this young season) to finish off a sweep.

Oh well, on to the Yankees.

pearso66
05-13-2007, 09:20 PM
all I have to say, is it was very depressing. I was at the game, and it was the first game I have ever left early. During the 8th inning, we decided to go to the lower deck during the pitching change. I believe it was 5-1 when we left our seats. We got downstairs, and by the time we got to the railing, it was bases loaded no outs, and the Royals got a couple more hits, and it was 9-1, I turned to everyone I was with and said, "I've had it, lets get out of here" and nobody disagreed. If the Sox don't want to show up, why should I be forced to sit through it?

jabrch
05-13-2007, 09:25 PM
Both Masset and Logan deserve to be in the big leagues.

Welcome to the world of overreactions. Population:YOU

MetroPD
05-13-2007, 09:40 PM
Its not our hitters, we're just running up against great pitching!:rolleyes:

gobears1987
05-13-2007, 10:32 PM
I can't believe I had to sit through that game. Vazquez didn't have his best stuff, but I really won't throw the blame at him. His line was fairly similar to Buehrle's yesterday.

Logan and Masset on the other hand blew chunks. Both however still have a spot in the big leagues.

Our offense also sucked. Oh well, we get Thome and Hall in a week.

sox647
05-13-2007, 10:45 PM
This game just needs to be erased from my mind as soon as possible. The Bulls winning and Gordon winning the Cup race was nice.

Let's take 2 of 3 from the Yanks.

sweep the yankees

102605
05-13-2007, 10:46 PM
A sweep would have been nice but taking 2 of 3 the past 3 series is a good sign.

Keep that up and we'll be where we want to be in October.

kittle42
05-13-2007, 10:59 PM
I think those are some awfully snap judgements made about a team which started today's game having won 4 games in a row.

I don't. The offense is pathetic. It has been the whole season. It's last in the majors in average. It sucks, and they are lucky as hell to be 18-16 right now. Thank you, pitching.

JB98
05-13-2007, 11:10 PM
I should have taken my mom to Saturday's game. Today was a waste of time. Horrible pitching. No one Ozzie used threw strikes. 2-0, 3-1, ball four all day. Offense was even worse. I guess it was a good day for the pitching to meltdown because we weren't going to win scoring only one run anyway.We are more than one-fifth through the season, and Tadahito Iguchi has six RBIs. That's only one more than Ryan Sweeney. Iguchi failed with second-and-third and no outs during the second inning of Saturday's game. He failed today with the bases loaded and one out in the fourth. Crede, Dye and Konerko have been inconsistent and disappointing. Iguchi has been very consistent. He's consistently terrible.

tstrike2000
05-13-2007, 11:14 PM
The Mother's Day Massacre. Besides a horrible game, having our third and fourth place hitters batting .203 and .194 is pretty sickening.

JB98
05-13-2007, 11:19 PM
The Mother's Day Massacre. Besides a horrible game, having our third and fourth place hitters batting .203 and .194 is pretty sickening.

Don't forget Crede and Iguchi. And those are the guys we need to step up. You can't count on Luis Terrero to save your ass.

Navarro's Talent
05-13-2007, 11:28 PM
Rough game, but they can't win 'em all. They won the series. The pitching simply was not there today. And, well, we already know about the hitting....

balke
05-13-2007, 11:31 PM
Welcome to the world of overreactions. Population:YOU

And that's an overreaction how? "Population you" Gimme a break. :rolleyes: Did you even read the post you quoted?

kittle42
05-13-2007, 11:46 PM
And that's an overreaction how? "Population you" Gimme a break. :rolleyes: Did you even read the post you quoted?

Hey, give the "there's nothing wrong here at all, and anyone who thinks there is is not a Sox fan" crowd a break! They're panicking.

balke
05-13-2007, 11:58 PM
You know, from a statistical standpoint, this slump kinda makes me a little curious about how hot the team will be when they get hot. The longer the slump, the law of averages would say the bigger rebound they'll have. Should see some 10 run games this season.

RadioheadRocks
05-14-2007, 12:12 AM
"Mama said there'd be days like this..."

HotelWhiteSox
05-14-2007, 12:23 AM
Welcome to the world of overreactions. Population:YOU

I think you read it wrong

BanditJimmy
05-14-2007, 12:59 AM
Tadahito Iguchi has six RBIs. That's only one more than Ryan Sweeney. Iguchi failed with second-and-third and no outs during the second inning of Saturday's game. He failed today with the bases loaded and one out in the fourth. Crede, Dye and Konerko have been inconsistent and disappointing. Iguchi has been very consistent. He's consistently terrible.


He has already convinced me 100% that I don't want to se him back here next year. He has become the biggest liability with the glove out there now that Pods is gone. His arm is a complete noodle. Not sure what is his mental issue right now becuase guys don't suck this bad in ALL aspects of the game from one year to the next.

WhiteSox5187
05-14-2007, 01:23 AM
The Sox just didn't show up today. I think they were a little burned out from yesterday and truth be told, we put in our "C" lineup with Molina and Terrero taking the spots of AJ and Erstad (both of whom have been hitting the ball better). I'm not going to freak out over this loss, it would have been nice to get a sweep but if we keep taking two out of three from teams, we'll be playing in October. The reassuring thing is looking at our record and realizing we're doing this with the WORST offense in the major leagues. Our offense can only get better folks and when it does, watch out. The whole team needs a day off (which they get on Monday), the Yankees pitching is nothing to write home about, so let's hit them hard and get a sweep there. I'm starting to get excited about this team, especially if our pitching holds up (excluding today, obviously).

Grzegorz
05-14-2007, 05:51 AM
You know, from a statistical standpoint, this slump kinda makes me a little curious about how hot the team will be when they get hot. The longer the slump, the law of averages would say the bigger rebound they'll have. Should see some 10 run games this season.

Hawk and DJ keep saying this over and over again. This team is too talented offensively to keep struggling.

Well, last year I remember many folks on this board saying it was a matter of "flipping the switch" and that all will be good.

Well, you cannot just "flip a switch". Maybe this team just isn't as good offensively as Hawk, DJ, and many on this board believe.

I believe that by the end of the year this team will be in the middle of the pack offensively. Will that be enough? Only the pitching will tell.

I do see changes next year; and one of those changes should thinking long and hard about an improvement at second base.

downstairs
05-14-2007, 08:11 AM
You know, from a statistical standpoint, this slump kinda makes me a little curious about how hot the team will be when they get hot. The longer the slump, the law of averages would say the bigger rebound they'll have. Should see some 10 run games this season.

Please don't tell me that this is how you think the law of averages works?

If you flip a coin three times, and the first two come up heads, your chances of flipping tails on the third one remains 50/50.

soxfanatlanta
05-14-2007, 08:43 AM
Please don't tell me that this is how you think the law of averages works?

I think what the poster meant was that if the bats warms up, we're looking at a very nice winning streak.


If you flip a coin three times, and the first two come up heads, your chances of flipping tails on the third one remains 50/50.


http://www.queensu.ca/drama/jstephenson/DRAM202/rosguil.jpg

Heads...
Heads...
Heads...
Heads...

SBSoxFan
05-14-2007, 10:14 AM
Please don't tell me that this is how you think the law of averages works?

If you flip a coin three times, and the first two come up heads, your chances of flipping tails on the third one remains 50/50.

So hitting a baseball is a random event?

TomBradley72
05-14-2007, 10:29 AM
He has already convinced me 100% that I don't want to se him back here next year. He has become the biggest liability with the glove out there now that Pods is gone. His arm is a complete noodle. Not sure what is his mental issue right now becuase guys don't suck this bad in ALL aspects of the game from one year to the next.

Not sure if I'm ready to write him off to that extent....but he does seem to be playing in a "fog" this year....both on defense and offense. Seeing the same thing with Crede...but to a lesser extent.

ondafarm
05-14-2007, 10:32 AM
Please don't tell me that this is how you think the law of averages works?

If you flip a coin three times, and the first two come up heads, your chances of flipping tails on the third one remains 50/50.

The fallacy of believeing that the longer you are wrong, the better off you'll be when you are right is called the gambler's paradox. Las Vegas makes a lot of money off of people who think they'll win eventually. (I always get lambaseted about this on Slashdot.)

TomBradley72
05-14-2007, 10:33 AM
Hawk and DJ keep saying this over and over again. This team is too talented offensively to keep struggling.
Well, last year I remember many folks on this board saying it was a matter of "flipping the switch" and that all will be good.
Well, you cannot just "flip a switch". Maybe this team just isn't as good offensively as Hawk, DJ, and many on this board believe.


We could be facing one of those years when the whole team slumps (like 1984)...but the odds are that the veterans will "regress to the mean" of their historical performance levels. Dye, Konerko. Crede, Iguchi have long track records of performing at a much higher level than they have over the first 6 weeks of the season.

ondafarm
05-14-2007, 10:34 AM
Hawk and DJ keep saying this over and over again. This team is too talented offensively to keep struggling.

Well, last year I remember many folks on this board saying it was a matter of "flipping the switch" and that all will be good.

Well, you cannot just "flip a switch". Maybe this team just isn't as good offensively as Hawk, DJ, and many on this board believe.

I believe that by the end of the year this team will be in the middle of the pack offensively. Will that be enough? Only the pitching will tell.

I do see changes next year; and one of those changes should thinking long and hard about an improvement at second base.

And I lay this squarely at the feet of Ozzie. He's beyond the point where having a "player's manager" will normally be productive. I think somebody who drives the troops a little harder is needed.

cws05champ
05-14-2007, 10:41 AM
A sweep would have been nice but taking 2 of 3 the past 3 series is a good sign.

Keep that up and we'll be where we want to be in October.

Ya...if we win 2 out of 3 in every series I'd take that in a heartbeat. That would put us at 103 wins if we play at .667 win pctg for the rest of the year. Not say that we will take 2 of 3 in every series....but it would be nice.

TomBradley72
05-14-2007, 10:42 AM
And I lay this squarely at the feet of Ozzie. He's beyond the point where having a "player's manager" will normally be productive. I think somebody who drives the troops a little harder is needed.

Any team that loses it's DH/#3 hitter, lead off hitter, and a "Toby Hall" level back up/right handed catcher is going to have a rough time. I like alot of the moves Ozzie has made the first 6 weeks of the year...going to a 12 man pitching staff, bringing Sweeney into the line up, Ozuna as a "super utility" guy, sticking with Erstad...the season is a marathon...he has the worst hitting team in MLB above .500 and only a few games out of a post season spot. I think our manager is the least of our problems.

southsideirish71
05-14-2007, 10:48 AM
Ya...if we win 2 out of 3 in every series I'd take that in a heartbeat. That would put us at 103 wins if we play at .667 win pctg for the rest of the year. Not say that we will take 2 of 3 in every series....but it would be nice.

Well thank god we were playing the Royals, because if that was a semi-competent team we get swept.

We win 2-1 on Friday. 2 runs, one solo homer, and a gift by rotten defense. Odalis Perez was throwing beachballs up to the plate, and we could do anything with it.

On Saturday we tied it with one out left after being shut down by a guy who hasn't pitched since last August and wasn't very good. Again more gifts from the Royals and their rotten defense.

On Sunday we cant hit and our relief goes bad.

I like the wins, however to come out of this weekend with a smile is something I wouldn't say. The offense needs to get out of this funk now.

itsnotrequired
05-14-2007, 10:53 AM
Any team that loses it's DH/#3 hitter, lead off hitter, and a "Toby Hall" level back up/right handed catcher is going to have a rough time. I like alot of the moves Ozzie has made the first 6 weeks of the year...going to a 12 man pitching staff, bringing Sweeney into the line up, Ozuna as a "super utility" guy, sticking with Erstad...the season is a marathon...he has the worst hitting team in MLB above .500 and only a few games out of a post season spot. I think our manager is the least of our problems.


Not to mention so many guys hitting well below average this late in the season. The Sox have five regulars with averages .047 or greater below their career averages (Pierzynski, Iguchi, Crede, Konerko and Dye) and two of them have averages .072 points or greater below career (Konerko and Dye). There will usually be a guy or two struggling at any given time but five? That's crazy. Even bench guys like Cintron and Mackowiak are way below their career averages. Throw in a lost DH and leadoff guy (who had the highset averages on the team) and its amazing the Sox aren't 10 games out.

spiffie
05-14-2007, 10:55 AM
And I lay this squarely at the feet of Ozzie. He's beyond the point where having a "player's manager" will normally be productive. I think somebody who drives the troops a little harder is needed.
So if Ozzie would just yell at Paul Konerko he would suddenly become scared and decide that he should start earning his $12 million a year? Was Ozzie yelling more last year when Konerko his .300? Or when Jermaine Dye had a career year?

If the problems with this team were lack of hustle or mental gaffes, or if they were a young team full of guys who might not be trying as hard as they should be to improve (like Anderson, who somehow seemed to be another exhibit for you in arguing against Ozzie) then I could see your point. But I guess I just am not sure that a group of veteran multimillionaires will be suddenly inspired to hit the ball more squarely because they fire Ozzie and hire Buck Showalter or Razor Shines or Jack McKeon or anyone else.

INSox56
05-14-2007, 11:10 AM
Any team that loses it's DH/#3 hitter, lead off hitter, and a "Toby Hall" level back up/right handed catcher is going to have a rough time. I like alot of the moves Ozzie has made the first 6 weeks of the year...going to a 12 man pitching staff, bringing Sweeney into the line up, Ozuna as a "super utility" guy, sticking with Erstad...the season is a marathon...he has the worst hitting team in MLB above .500 and only a few games out of a post season spot. I think our manager is the least of our problems.People, be it writers or WSI members keep saying that...without Thome, Pods, and Hall. I could agree with that if we were just losing games...say one or two runs when scoring 4 average. Well the thing is we're not...so tell me how having Thome, Pods, and Hall is going to make our ****ty offense start hitting above .200.

SBSoxFan
05-14-2007, 11:25 AM
The fallacy of believeing that the longer you are wrong, the better off you'll be when you are right is called the gambler's paradox. Las Vegas makes a lot of money off of people who think they'll win eventually. (I always get lambaseted about this on Slashdot.)

Why? People on slashdot should know what the gambler's fallacy is. However, this has little to do with sports. Hitting a baseball is not a random event akin to flipping a coin. As a previous poster mentioned, is it likely for 5+ guys to have a down year? Yes. Is it likely? No.

roadrunner
05-14-2007, 11:55 AM
We could be facing one of those years when the whole team slumps (like 1984)...but the odds are that the veterans will "regress to the mean" of their historical performance levels. Dye, Konerko. Crede, Iguchi have long track records of performing at a much higher level than they have over the first 6 weeks of the season.

I agree that Dye and Konerko should pick it up and "regress to the mean". Iguchi has a great track record if you include Japan and should hit better as well.

I don't think you can say, however, that Crede has a long track record. He's a career .259/.305/.447 and that's after easily the best year of his career. In 05 he only hit .252 (.239 in 04). I think that he is only getting better but I am also beginning to worry that last year was a career year.

itsnotrequired
05-14-2007, 12:04 PM
I don't think you can say, however, that Crede has a long track record. He's a career .259/.305/.447 and that's after easily the best year of his career. In 05 he only hit .252 (.239 in 04). I think that he is only getting better but I am also beginning to worry that last year was a career year.

Whether last year was a career year or not is irrelevant. Even if he hits a putrid .240 on the season, it will still be 35 points higher than what he is batting right now.

ondafarm
05-14-2007, 12:08 PM
So if Ozzie would just yell at Paul Konerko he would suddenly become scared and decide that he should start earning his $12 million a year? Was Ozzie yelling more last year when Konerko his .300? Or when Jermaine Dye had a career year?

If the problems with this team were lack of hustle or mental gaffes, or if they were a young team full of guys who might not be trying as hard as they should be to improve (like Anderson, who somehow seemed to be another exhibit for you in arguing against Ozzie) then I could see your point. But I guess I just am not sure that a group of veteran multimillionaires will be suddenly inspired to hit the ball more squarely because they fire Ozzie and hire Buck Showalter or Razor Shines or Jack McKeon or anyone else.

It doesn't have to be yelling. The best manager I ever played for never raised his voice. And yet his standard practice was that if you missed a bunt sign, he'd yank you before the next pitch.

I do think PK is showing a lack of hustle this season. Watch when he grounds out, he doesn't run it out anyways. More than once this season, that has led to a bobbled ball being an out anyways when it might be a hit or at least on-base with an error.

This team is showing a remarkable lack of execution, or at least was until the latest streak. A manager who can't/ won't discipline guys for lack of efforts is hurting the whole team. Ozzie has just run a guy (BA) out of town. Probably for his own good (I mean BA's own good.) But until he gets someone in his doghouse for not hustling, for not executing, no one on this team will take discipline serious. And I don't think Ozzie has that in him.

Yelling has nothing to do with it. In fact, more poor managers yell than good ones.

Multimillionaires who live in fear of being sat on the bench and losing the opportunity to sign their next contract will hustle and will perform. Multimillionaires who see a guy dogging certain guys for not hustling, not working on the fundamentals and not executing can win a World Series.

itsnotrequired
05-14-2007, 12:12 PM
I do think PK is showing a lack of hustle this season. Watch when he grounds out, he doesn't run it out anyways. More than once this season, that has led to a bobbled ball being an out anyways when it might be a hit or at least on-base with an error.

When he flied out to left in the 6th yesterday, I was amazed at how hard he ran the bases. He was nearly to second base by the time the ball was caught (which is pretty far considering his speed). He was legging it out for all he was worth.

roadrunner
05-14-2007, 12:22 PM
Whether last year was a career year or not is irrelevant. Even if he hits a putrid .240 on the season, it will still be 35 points higher than what he is batting right now.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that he is going to hit .210 on the season. The question is whether we can expect the offense to pick it up enough to win the division. For that to happen it's going to take more than a putrid .240 from Crede. I understand your point that to finish .240 he'd have to hit .260ish the rest of the way. I don't understand how a .240 avg would excite you or how you could deem it acceptable.

spiffie
05-14-2007, 12:29 PM
It doesn't have to be yelling. The best manager I ever played for never raised his voice. And yet his standard practice was that if you missed a bunt sign, he'd yank you before the next pitch.

I do think PK is showing a lack of hustle this season. Watch when he grounds out, he doesn't run it out anyways. More than once this season, that has led to a bobbled ball being an out anyways when it might be a hit or at least on-base with an error.

This team is showing a remarkable lack of execution, or at least was until the latest streak. A manager who can't/ won't discipline guys for lack of efforts is hurting the whole team. Ozzie has just run a guy (BA) out of town. Probably for his own good (I mean BA's own good.) But until he gets someone in his doghouse for not hustling, for not executing, no one on this team will take discipline serious. And I don't think Ozzie has that in him.

Yelling has nothing to do with it. In fact, more poor managers yell than good ones.

Multimillionaires who live in fear of being sat on the bench and losing the opportunity to sign their next contract will hustle and will perform. Multimillionaires who see a guy dogging certain guys for not hustling, not working on the fundamentals and not executing can win a World Series.
But who are you seriously going to sit on this team just in the hopes of making a statement? Are you going to bench Konerko for 2 weeks and put Mackowiak in every day at 1B and go with an outfield of Sweeney, Erstad, Ozuna and Dye as a DH? Bench Crede and play Mackowiak there or call up Fields? Put Dye on the pine and keep running the Sweeney, Erstad, Ozuna outfield every day? I don't care who you hire, you can name any name you like, there's no one getting benched for lack of hustle. If Lou Piniella, who sounds like the kind of manager you're currently pining for, is willing to keep guys like Aramis Ramirez and Jacque Jones in his starting lineup every day, I have trouble envisioning anyone coming along who would ever do anything more than a single token benching for one day. In this day and age there is no one who would come along and say "Screw it, for the next 14 days we are playing a lineup of:
Erstad - 1B
Cintron - 2B
Gonzalez - SS
Mackowiak - 3B
Sweeney - LF
Terrero - CF
Ozuna - RF
Molina - C
Thome - DH"

So really all you're left with is how Ozzie or any other manager talks to the players inside the clubhouse. And once you get to that, all we can do is speculate on how that is being handled.

itsnotrequired
05-14-2007, 12:43 PM
I don't think anyone is suggesting that he is going to hit .210 on the season. The question is whether we can expect the offense to pick it up enough to win the division. For that to happen it's going to take more than a putrid .240 from Crede. I understand your point that to finish .240 he'd have to hit .260ish the rest of the way. I don't understand how a .240 avg would excite you or how you could deem it acceptable.

A .240 average neither excites me nor do I consider it acceptable. My point was that the five hitters mentioned in my original post have proven records of success and it is mathematically all but impossible that they will all remain in a funk. If even three of these guys just get back to their career averages, this team will be in decent shape (assuming the starting pitching remains hot, of course).

I just went back through 2003 and no team in the majors ended up with a season team average below .240. The team with the .240 average was the 2003 Tigers who lost 119 games that season. The hitting WILL come around. If it doesn't, these averages will be among the worst in the history of the game. I mean, this isn't a team full of Mario Mendoza clones.

balke
05-14-2007, 12:54 PM
Please don't tell me that this is how you think the law of averages works?

If you flip a coin three times, and the first two come up heads, your chances of flipping tails on the third one remains 50/50.

We've seen both Dye and Konerko get off to this slow of starts and finish the season with what their stats approximately should be. I expect the same to happen again.

champagne030
05-14-2007, 12:55 PM
When he flied out to left in the 6th yesterday, I was amazed at how hard he ran the bases. He was nearly to second base by the time the ball was caught (which is pretty far considering his speed). He was legging it out for all he was worth.

:o: When did PK become faster than Carl Lewis? He couldn't be near second base by the time the ball landed (or was caught) if he hit it 800 feet. He didn't hustle on the ball in the 6th inning. I specifically remember the AB because my group laughed at Buddy Bell for walking PK and loading the bases in the 4th inning. I remember thinking that maybe Bell was right because Paulie just missed that ball in the 6th and he knew it as he threw his bat down in disgust as he trotted towards first while watching the flight of the ball.

roadrunner
05-14-2007, 12:58 PM
A .240 average neither excites me nor do I consider it acceptable. My point was that the five hitters mentioned in my original post have proven records of success and it is mathematically all but impossible that they will all remain in a funk. If even three of these guys just get back to their career averages, this team will be in decent shape (assuming the starting pitching remains hot, of course).

I just went back through 2003 and no team in the majors ended up with a season team average below .240. The team with the .240 average was the 2003 Tigers who lost 119 games that season. The hitting WILL come around. If it doesn't, these averages will be among the worst in the history of the game. I mean, this isn't a team full of Mario Mendoza clones.

I agree with all of your points. My only contention was with grouping Crede in with Dye and Konerko (and even Iguchi to some extent). He's just not as established of a hitter and I fear a return to the days where all we'd see was an occasional homerun.

I especially agree with your previous posts about Ozzie. He is actually having a great year in terms of managing. Your analysis of team batting averages since 03 illustrates that point well. The offense has been as bad as the 03 Tigers - ouch.

itsnotrequired
05-14-2007, 01:01 PM
:o: When did PK become faster than Carl Lewis? He couldn't be near second base by the time the ball landed (or was caught) if he hit it 800 feet. He didn't hustle on the ball in the 6th inning. I specifically remember the AB because my group laughed at Buddy Bell for walking PK and loading the bases in the 4th inning. I remember thinking that maybe Bell was right because Paulie just missed that ball in the 6th and he knew it as he threw his bat down in disgust as he trotted towards first while watching the flight of the ball.

Geez, maybe I'm thinking of a different fly ball then. I specifically remember one from yesterday where Konerko really hustled. It seemed unusual so that is why it sticks out in my mind. Maybe I'm confusing games.

SCarolina_Ron
05-14-2007, 01:02 PM
6 for 8 (or 6 for 9 if you count the first game in Anaheim) plus winning 3 series works for me. As for those who think KC should represent an automatic win/sweep for us, I think they are dead wrong. IMHO there is now parity in MLB and there are no longer any doormats.

Given that, Sunday's game effort (with a few exceptions defensively) lacked the intensity it should have. I don't begrudge anyone a day off but wish either AJ or Ersty had been in there as a catalyst.

ND_Sox_Fan
05-14-2007, 01:08 PM
Geez, maybe I'm thinking of a different fly ball then. I specifically remember one from yesterday where Konerko really hustled. It seemed unusual so that is why it sticks out in my mind. Maybe I'm confusing games.

You are absolutely correct - I couldn't believe my eyes. He actually looked quick. He got about two-thirds of the way to second by the time the ball was caught.

itsnotrequired
05-14-2007, 01:10 PM
You are absolutely correct - I couldn't believe my eyes. He actually looked quick. He got about two-thirds of the way to second by the time the ball was caught.

Ah, so maybe I wasn't imagining things!:D:

I remember him bolting out of the gate and I thought to myself "Why the heck is he running so hard?"

itsnotrequired
05-14-2007, 01:17 PM
I especially agree with your previous posts about Ozzie. He is actually having a great year in terms of managing. Your analysis of team batting averages since 03 illustrates that point well. The offense has been as bad as the 03 Tigers - ouch.

The 2003 Tigers were batting .209 as a team on this date in 2003.

I just can't see the Sox NOT turning it around.

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2007, 01:29 PM
I do think PK is showing a lack of hustle this season...

But until he gets someone in his doghouse for not hustling, for not executing, no one on this team will take discipline serious. And I don't think Ozzie has that in him.

Yelling has nothing to do with it. In fact, more poor managers yell than good ones.

Multimillionaires who live in fear of being sat on the bench and losing the opportunity to sign their next contract will hustle and will perform. Multimillionaires who see a guy dogging certain guys for not hustling, not working on the fundamentals and not executing can win a World Series.

But who are you seriously going to sit on this team just in the hopes of making a statement? ...

So really all you're left with is how Ozzie or any other manager talks to the players inside the clubhouse. And once you get to that, all we can do is speculate on how that is being handled.

If there is a lack of hustle - either with the team or just with Paulie -, Ozzie could strip Paulie of the title of captain.

kittle42
05-14-2007, 01:33 PM
As for those who think KC should represent an automatic win/sweep for us, I think they are dead wrong. IMHO there is now parity in MLB and there are no longer any doormats.

Except for Washington, KC, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Cincy, and all the other teams that had no chance from the opening pitch.

spiffie
05-14-2007, 02:05 PM
Except for Washington, KC, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Cincy, and all the other teams that had no chance from the opening pitch.
I think the idea though is that while yeah, those teams didn't have a chance to make the playoffs, that there are no teams, except maybe the Nats, who you should look at as "auto-wins." Each of those teams have a bunch of solid and dangerous players who can win on any given day, and it's not really an upset when they win. They lack the depth to win the 85-95 games needed to contend for a playoff berth, but they have enough talent to make any game or series dangerous for every other team in the game.

ND_Sox_Fan
05-14-2007, 02:15 PM
Ah, so maybe I wasn't imagining things!:D:

I remember him bolting out of the gate and I thought to myself "Why the heck is he running so hard?"

It reminded me of the Purdue baseball team - they had to sprint to second on every flyball they hit, even if it was caught. I loved watching it when they would come to ND.

champagne030
05-14-2007, 02:23 PM
Geez, maybe I'm thinking of a different fly ball then. I specifically remember one from yesterday where Konerko really hustled. It seemed unusual so that is why it sticks out in my mind. Maybe I'm confusing games.

You are absolutely correct - I couldn't believe my eyes. He actually looked quick. He got about two-thirds of the way to second by the time the ball was caught.

:dunno: Yes, you must be confusing it with another AB/game. I'm not accusing Paulie of dogging anything, but on his 6th inning flyball yesterday he never made it further than 3 feet past first base (after the catch) and that included running part of the way to first at about 1/3 speed. Costa and PK we're both in my line of sight the whole time because Costa was about 20 feet in front of me while waiting for the ball to drop.

itsnotrequired
05-14-2007, 02:40 PM
:dunno: Yes, you must be confusing it with another AB/game. I'm not accusing Paulie of dogging anything, but on his 6th inning flyball yesterday he never made it further than 3 feet past first base (after the catch) and that included running part of the way to first at about 1/3 speed. Costa and PK we're both in my line of sight the whole time because Costa was about 20 feet in front of me while waiting for the ball to drop.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Anyone else know what we are talking about?:D:

JB98
05-14-2007, 03:13 PM
When he flied out to left in the 6th yesterday, I was amazed at how hard he ran the bases. He was nearly to second base by the time the ball was caught (which is pretty far considering his speed). He was legging it out for all he was worth.

I noticed that too, and it made me wonder whether Ozzie got on him about it. I agree with ondafarm's earlier observation that Paulie hasn't always been hustling this year. He's spent too much time throwing the bat away in disgust, when he should be getting out of the box and hustling down to first.

itsnotrequired
05-14-2007, 03:26 PM
I noticed that too, and it made me wonder whether Ozzie got on him about it. I agree with ondafarm's earlier observation that Paulie hasn't always been hustling this year. He's spent too much time throwing the bat away in disgust, when he should be getting out of the box and hustling down to first.

Okay, 3-1 now of people who saw this vs didn't.:D:

Agreed about dogging it earlier in the season.

JB98
05-14-2007, 03:31 PM
Okay, 3-1 now of people who saw this vs didn't.:D:

Agreed about dogging it earlier in the season.

I can't confirm whether it was in the sixth inning or not. The agony of yesterday's game all started to run together after awhile. But I definitely saw Paulie damn near all the way to second base when one of his pop-ups was caught.

tstrike2000
05-14-2007, 05:17 PM
Don't forget Crede and Iguchi. And those are the guys we need to step up. You can't count on Luis Terrero to save your ass.

Very true. I can't forget Crede and Iguchi along with their Mendoza Line pals Konerko and Dye...who are all hitting at the time of this writing, .205, .210, .194, and .203, respectively. That is very sickening.

ilsox7
05-14-2007, 05:19 PM
Very true. I can't forget Crede and Iguchi along with their Mendoza Line pals Konerko and Dye...who are all hitting at the time of this writing, .205, .210, .194, and .203, respectively. That is very sickening.

44% of the line-up is literally getting a hit every couple of days and the team is still 18-16. For comparison, the 2003 Tigers, who also didn't hit through 34 games, were 7-27.

JB98
05-14-2007, 05:23 PM
44% of the line-up is literally getting a hit every couple of days and the team is still 18-16. For comparison, the 2003 Tigers, who also didn't hit through 34 games, were 7-27.

Another comparison is the 2001 White Sox, who started the year 14-29. They ended up .500. The hitters came around eventually. Our pitching that season didn't measure up to this year's group.

jabrch
05-14-2007, 05:32 PM
You are absolutely correct - I couldn't believe my eyes. He actually looked quick. He got about two-thirds of the way to second by the time the ball was caught.

Wasn't it also yesterday when PK was hustling enough to avoid a DP by beating the throw to first?

Paulie's problem isn't his running. It is his hitting.

TomBradley72
05-14-2007, 05:36 PM
This team is showing a remarkable lack of execution, or at least was until the latest streak. A manager who can't/ won't discipline guys for lack of efforts is hurting the whole team. Ozzie has just run a guy (BA) out of town. Probably for his own good (I mean BA's own good.) But until he gets someone in his doghouse for not hustling, for not executing, no one on this team will take discipline serious. And I don't think Ozzie has that in him.

Yelling has nothing to do with it. In fact, more poor managers yell than good ones.

Multimillionaires who live in fear of being sat on the bench and losing the opportunity to sign their next contract will hustle and will perform. Multimillionaires who see a guy dogging certain guys for not hustling, not working on the fundamentals and not executing can win a World Series.

I just don't share your opinion on the hustle factor or your opinion of Ozzie (especially in comparison to Piniella...who in his time in Chicago seems to be a caricature of himself).

In terms of the low batting averages...on May 1, 2005...Dye was hitting .175, Konerko .217, Rowand .233..it's a long season...they will come around.

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2007, 06:40 PM
Another comparison is the 2001 White Sox, who started the year 14-29. They ended up .500. The hitters came around eventually. Our pitching that season didn't measure up to this year's group.

And in 2001 and 2003, the Sox failed to win the division. Moreoever, back in those days the AL Central was far worse as a whole than it is now.

MCHSoxFan
05-14-2007, 10:05 PM
"Mama said there'd be days like this..."

:D: