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CerberusWG
03-27-2002, 10:11 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think- think- I can see where Ken Williams was coming from when he made this trade.

Right now, the ChiSox have a log jam of young, promising arms that are all major-league ready. However, since one can only have so many players on a major league roster at one time, players that should be in the majors are forced to further develop in AAA, and players that should be in AAA must stay longer in AA, etc. Having extensive minor league experience proves to be beneficial, but there comes a point when I believe further development can only be made at the major league level.

Just like the Pirates have a log jam at MINF and OF positions, the ChiSox have a jam at P (which is a nice jam to have!). Like the Bucs, striving to simplify their position, I think the ChiSox were trying to simplify their's as well.

This works for the Sox, I think. Two or three years down the road, when all of their high pitching prospects have either made the club or moved on, Edwin Yan could be ready to be their 2B star of the future.

Don't sell Yan short. He has his shortcomings like any young player, but not a lot of kids can do what he did, let alone in his first year. I am very happy about this trade, but I don't think the Sox took a hit as badly as I initially believed.

~Winterset~

doublem23
03-27-2002, 10:14 PM
Man, Willie Harris hasn't even made the team and we're already trying to find his replacement. :smile:

cheeses_h_rice
03-27-2002, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Man, Willie Harris hasn't even made the team and we're already trying to find his replacement. :smile:

Don't you mean Tim Hummel's replacement?

Pete_SSAC
03-27-2002, 10:29 PM
We also seem to forget something else.

Matt hasn't been proven to be able to pitch in the Big Leauges yet. For all we know, he might not have the big ones to pitch up here, and become another Kip Wells. So it's not like the Pirates are getting off scot free either.

Like I said, time will tell.

- Pete

doublem23
03-27-2002, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice


Don't you mean Tim Hummel's replacement?

Touche...

See what happens when I have a busy couple of days and can't post here? I forget everything!

Chisoxfn
03-28-2002, 12:17 AM
The thing is the Pirates are giving up a guy that wouldn't of even made their roster this spring and are getting a guy that could push their rotation by opening day and will definatley push it in a month.

The guy the Pirates are giving up may even be out of options for all I know and could of been on his way to being released in the next day or two. This move stinks for that fact. If the Pirates thought so highly of him why the heck would they not even leave him on their roster. It isn't like they have this great pitching staff and he isn't old.

I'm telling you guys this just isn't right. I think KW is getting ready to move to Pittsburgh for a new job. He's just making it easier on himself.

Anway the point makes sense the only problem is we don't have a ton of young arms any more. We have a few but nothing like we used to have. Of course I'm not expert on what we have 2 years from now but I know we don't have too much more left to deal, at least starting pitching wise.

Pete_SSAC
03-28-2002, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
The thing is the Pirates are giving up a guy that wouldn't of even made their roster this spring and are getting a guy that could push their rotation by opening day and will definatley push it in a month.

Yes, and we're giving up a guy that wouldn't have made it to our roster this spring and getting a guy that will be in our bullpen this season.

Odd how I just repeated what you said, but changed a few words, isn't it?

- Pete

kermittheefrog
03-28-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Anway the point makes sense the only problem is we don't have a ton of young arms any more. We have a few but nothing like we used to have. Of course I'm not expert on what we have 2 years from now but I know we don't have too much more left to deal, at least starting pitching wise.

Ya know the suckass thing about these Williams deals isn't that they are crippling the future of the franchise it's that if these guys had been packaged properly we could have gotten a real impact player, maybe two rather than a collection of spare parts. If you think about it we are still pitching rich. In the minors we still have:

Malone
Ulacia
Lantigua
Ginter

Who at least have experience in AA or above. We also have guys with arms who are prepared to invade the higher minor leagues in a year or two like:

Rylan Reed
Kris Honel
Brian West
Jason Stumm
Andrew Fryson
Wyatt Allen
Ryan Wing
Aaron Kirkland
Tim Bittner
Arnoldo Munoz
Gary Majewski

When you really think about it we're still a deep organization. Probably some guys I haven't heard of will take a step up for whichever guys on that list don't pan out. We've got a crazy amount of arms in our organization, Kenny just needs to start bringing in diamonds instead of cubic zerconias.

czalgosz
03-28-2002, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


When you really think about it we're still a deep organization. Probably some guys I haven't heard of will take a step up for whichever guys on that list don't pan out. We've got a crazy amount of arms in our organization, Kenny just needs to start bringing in diamonds instead of cubic zerconias.

I totally agree - Guerrier may well have been overrated, but couldn't KW have used that to his advantage? The Yankees do that all the time - pump up their prospects in the media so that everyone is going crazy for them, turn down a few trade offers to build up demand, and then turn Ricky Ledee into Dave Justice. The Sox could take a page out of that book. They could have gotten a lot more out of Guerrier, if from only from his reputation.

Chisoxfn
03-28-2002, 01:13 AM
Awesome post czalgosz

Thats exactly what the Yanks do and its what Kw should do.

I've already decided what Kw's problem is and its that he's not prepared as a gm. He doesn't do enough homework before he pulls the trigger on a deal. It seems to me that he calls a guy up, asks the availability and then scouts him and gets it done in a hurry.

On the opposite side of the spectrum is Kevin Towers, who I classify as one of the brightest gms in the game. Towers will scout playesr that fit his need, which he will already have in his mind. He'll then really look hard and do the homework on all of them, including the situation they fit in with their current team. Then he'll decide whats a fair offer and make it, usually giving up a guy he feels is over-rated and then he gets the dael done, putting it on the other gm to rush into a deal and whenever you rush a deal you odds are get the shorter end of the stick.

You don't believe me, I can GUARANTEE that the whole name botch occured cause of the lack of research he did. KW needs to run things like a business. He should know his weaknesses and have trusted individuals where they use their strength and fill it in where KW is week. No Gm could possibly know everything so you need good men around you that do their job. KW should then really take his time, and have a goal in mind, know the position and thing about what you are going to do. Don't just do it on a gut reaction, give it day or two or threes time before you make the proposal. Work every scenario out making sure this move is the right move for the future and present of the franchise and if its just for the present make sure you feel this move could make them that much better and if it doesn't you pull back.

I know some of you may just think this is crap but its the way I see it and I'm going to stick by it. Other KW moves made sense in the way he would fill a need that we couldn't fill in on our own. As far as a lhp specialist, first off it isn't going to be what gets us in the series, and we had guys we could of used like Porizio there. This guy has 30 More Innings than Porizio.

As far as the other guy being the sleeper in the trade, I got one thing to say about that. If Kw made this trade to get a 2nd baseman then he should be fired on the spot. 2nd is a strenght of this organization. We have some of the top prospects in the game in Harris and Hummel and have arguably one of the top 5 2nd baseman in the game at the professional level. If you are going to deal from a strenght like pitching you need to be filling a weakness not strenght and right now 2nd is a strenght in this organization. Now shortstop we could use, catching we could use, but not 2nd.

baggio202
03-28-2002, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by Pete_SSAC


Yes, and we're giving up a guy that wouldn't have made it to our roster this spring and getting a guy that will be in our bullpen this season.

Odd how I just repeated what you said, but changed a few words, isn't it?

- Pete

lets look at pete's quote....two years ago if somebody told me pittsburgh..the 29 th club in pitching last year or something like that...would be ready to cut loose a guy that we would be willing to trade our number 4 prospect 4 because we were in dire need of pitching id have thought he was nuts...

pittsburgh might actually have a better staff....holy sh*t

dougs78
03-28-2002, 06:37 AM
originally posted by Kermit
Ya know the suckass thing about these Williams deals isn't that they are crippling the future of the franchise it's that if these guys had been packaged properly we could have gotten a real impact player, maybe two rather than a collection of spare parts. If you think about it we are still pitching rich.

EXACTLY! That is my big problem. We have all these supposedly great young arms in the minors and this is our strength. I would much rather package them all up and go after a really big fish than to just dangle them out there looking for bluegill. The more I think about it though, we have only really traded guys who are marginal. I don't know the rest of the deal, but I know when Houston got the Big Unit they gave up a certain youngster named Freddy Garcia and other prospects. While I'm sure they wish they had one of those 2 guys now, they have been able to build up a damn nice cadre of young pitchers again. I'm just wishing and actually predicting that at some point in the next 2 years, Kenny is going to really unload a big package of pitchers to get something of an all-star caliber. Lets just hope we can pay this players salary..... :?: :(:

duke of dorwood
03-28-2002, 08:30 AM
Williams is simply a terrible GM. Its apparent that he was given much credit in the farm system that he had nothing to do with. He couldnt run a Dunkin Donuts shop.

rmusacch
03-28-2002, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Pete_SSAC
We also seem to forget something else.

Matt hasn't been proven to be able to pitch in the Big Leauges yet. For all we know, he might not have the big ones to pitch up here, and become another Kip Wells. So it's not like the Pirates are getting off scot free either.

Like I said, time will tell.

- Pete

Yeah but he could have been a decent major league pitcher for the Sox. Now we will never know.

rmusacch
03-28-2002, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn

The guy the Pirates are giving up may even be out of options for all I know and could of been on his way to being released in the next day or two. This move stinks for that fact. If the Pirates thought so highly of him why the heck would they not even leave him on their roster. It isn't like they have this great pitching staff and he isn't old.



I read somewhere (here?), that Dave Littlefield, the Pirates GM, commented that they were about to release and take the $20,000 waiver claim fee from the team claiming him but when the Sox offer came, it was a no-brainer. If this is true, Kenny Williams needs to be fired now. If it is not him making these asinine decisions, whoever is needs to be fired.

Randar68
03-28-2002, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by dougs78
I'm just wishing and actually predicting that at some point in the next 2 years, Kenny is going to really unload a big package of pitchers to get something of an all-star caliber.


Uhhhhh, this is the Sox. How could we possibly pay a premium player?

Jerry_Manuel
03-28-2002, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
How could we possibly pay a premium player?

:reinsy
I love seeing butts in the seats.

Mathew
03-28-2002, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch


I read somewhere (here?), that Dave Littlefield, the Pirates GM, commented that they were about to release and take the $20,000 waiver claim fee from the team claiming him but when the Sox offer came, it was a no-brainer. If this is true, Kenny Williams needs to be fired now. If it is not him making these asinine decisions, whoever is needs to be fired.

That is where the theory that Yan is the player in the trade had better be true to form and that Marte was just a free $20000. However, without taking sides, since I don't think this will have any real significant effect on either organisation, I'll cop out and remark that just because a trade helps one team more than another doesn't make it bad for the other team unless they have stake in how that team does.

(Subject to grammer and spelling corrections)