PDA

View Full Version : Kenny Williams trades Matt Guerrier


Vsahajpal
03-27-2002, 01:36 PM
I'm gonna be ill

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/pit/news/pit_news_story.jsp?article_id=pit_20020327_pirates whitesoxtrade_pr&team_id=pit

The #4 prospect in the organization, the guy who lead the entire minors with 18 wins...gone

CiscoCarlos
03-27-2002, 01:39 PM
This one seems the worst yet. Can anyone explain the logic?

RedPinStripes
03-27-2002, 01:40 PM
He must be listening to Hawk...............

WHY THE **** WOULD HE DO THIS!!!!!!!!! :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Lefty or not, The Pirates are making KW their bitch now. :angry:


Gurrier would have been nice to have out of the pen.

cheeses_h_rice
03-27-2002, 01:46 PM
I think I'm gonna

:chunks

cheeses_h_rice
03-27-2002, 01:49 PM
:KW

Man, it's fun having this bottomless well of great young pitching I can fritter away! Lord knows we needed another backup infielder!

cheeses_h_rice
03-27-2002, 01:59 PM
:KW

Howzabout this for my next trade...?

Jon Rauch and Joe Crede for Augie Ojeda? Boy, I'd sure like to have a 5th option at Shortstop...

moochpuppy
03-27-2002, 02:01 PM
Okay, I see no reason at all for this trade. I think KW has just officially stepped into the Hawk Harrelson realm of GM's.

KempersRS
03-27-2002, 02:03 PM
We can field one of the best teams in baseball, but lack a decent pitching staff...so let's trade some good pitching. Sweet move by KW.

Jerry_Manuel
03-27-2002, 02:05 PM
I'm very interested to hear what Williams says about this. I don't have a problem with trading Guerrier, but how about for a pitchers we can use now?

And people wonder why Dan and Mr. Liptak focus on the negatives. God Bless the White Sox (tear forming).

cheeses_h_rice
03-27-2002, 02:07 PM
Here are Damaso Marte's stats:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6261

If anyone can give me a compelling reason why KW traded for this guy, I'm all ears. Besides the fact that he's a lefty.

Jerry_Manuel
03-27-2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
If anyone can give me a compelling reason why KW traded for this guy, I'm all ears. Besides the fact that he's a lefty.

I'm sure he'll tell us "Our scouts think we can correct a flaw in his motion" or some bs like that.

I'll give Marte a chance at least. I wonder if he's going to bump Porzio from a spot on the team?

moochpuppy
03-27-2002, 02:12 PM
"Man who fart in church sit in own pew."

And KW is certainly clearing out the congregation.

Paulwny
03-27-2002, 02:13 PM
It scares me to think what he would have offered Toronto for Plesac.

Soxboyrob
03-27-2002, 02:16 PM
Then again, what do we currently have to show for all of the fantastic pitching prospects we've supposedly had waiting in the wings for the last 4 years? I hate trading a guy w/ that much promise, but none of these guys are working out for us at all. The only one that's really made a difference is Buehrle, and he was never hyped at all by anyone.

WinningUgly!
03-27-2002, 02:19 PM
Does the Pitsburgh GM use the "Jedi Mind Trick" on Williams or what?

Dave Littlefield: "You're going to give us Matt Guerrier."
Kenny Williams: "Hey, I'll give you Matt Guerrier."

What a horse***** deal!

I wonder if Gord Ash will save a spot for KW in the unemployment line?

cheeses_h_rice
03-27-2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Then again, what do we currently have to show for all of the fantastic pitching prospects we've supposedly had waiting in the wings for the last 4 years? I hate trading a guy w/ that much promise, but none of these guys are working out for us at all. The only one that's really made a difference is Buehrle, and he was never hyped at all by anyone.

I can see that, but what about Damaso Marte makes him such a compelling trade target? He's 27, and has pitched a whopping 30-some innings in MLB. Guerrier was doing well in the minors, at least, and would probably have made the team next year.

Jerry_Manuel
03-27-2002, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
What a horse***** deal!

I wonder if Gord Ash will save a spot for KW in the unemployment line?

A horse**** deal from a horse**** organization...maybe that's going a little to far.

Fat chance Winning, Kenny will be the man unless he quits.

doctor30th
03-27-2002, 02:25 PM
Ohh come on, everything is a horse***** deal to you people.

I feel like I should be Grandpa Simpson:

"Ohh, Bitch, Bitch, Bitch."

Do you people ever do anything else. For crying out loud, Lets keep all our prospects. That way there is no way to find out if our younger prospects will work out.

Sure guerrier was our number 4 prospect. But we got a left handed reliever with pretty good stuff and a decent young shortstop that has speed (stole 56 bases last year).

Which I do believe are two of the things that were being bitched about before. But that's right I guess we all expect to get A-Rod for chad durham and Author Rhodes for Vining.

hold2dibber
03-27-2002, 02:26 PM
I am absolutely flabbergasted. I have no problem trading away some of the surplus of young arms, but for God's sake, you can't tell me we couldn't have gotten more for Guerrier. The guy is a stud, and while the guy we got looks like he might be an okay stop gap left hander out of the pen, Guerrier has no. 2 or 3 starter potential written all over him. A dumb ass, short sighted, incredibly stupid trade. I feel sick.

WinningUgly!
03-27-2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
Ohh come on, everything is a horse***** deal to you people.

I feel like I should be Grandpa Simpson:

"Ohh, Bitch, Bitch, Bitch."

Do you people ever do anything else. For crying out loud, Lets keep all our prospects. That way there is no way to find out if our younger prospects will work out.

Sure guerrier was our number 4 prospect. But we got a left handed reliever with pretty good stuff and a decent young shortstop that has speed (stole 56 bases last year).

Which I do believe are two of the things that were being bitched about before. But that's right I guess we all expect to get A-Rod for chad durham and Author Rhodes for Vining.

I never said that they were all hor***** deals. I was (and still am) in favor of the Ritchie trade. I have no problem giving up guys with "potential" for a player(s) that can help us now. The Ritchie deal was a good deal for us, even though we overpaid for him...I just wish KW would quit paying!

Paulwny
03-27-2002, 02:35 PM
So Marte's from the Dominican Rep; any guess on his real age?

doctor30th
03-27-2002, 02:35 PM
Besides Marte is from the Dominican Republic, so he's probably 31 not 27. So theres the Veteran Lefty out of the pen.

doctor30th
03-27-2002, 02:36 PM
It was a blanket statment Winning. I wasn't trying to make it soley directed at you.

cheeses_h_rice
03-27-2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
Ohh come on, everything is a horse***** deal to you people.

I feel like I should be Grandpa Simpson:

"Ohh, Bitch, Bitch, Bitch."

Do you people ever do anything else. For crying out loud, Lets keep all our prospects. That way there is no way to find out if our younger prospects will work out.

Sure guerrier was our number 4 prospect. But we got a left handed reliever with pretty good stuff and a decent young shortstop that has speed (stole 56 bases last year).

Which I do believe are two of the things that were being bitched about before. But that's right I guess we all expect to get A-Rod for chad durham and Author Rhodes for Vining.

I'd be delighted if Marte had "pretty good stuff," but the fact that he's 27 and barely making a dent in the majors is a bit disconcerting, whereas Guerrier had the potential to be in our starting 5 next year.

And what do we need with another SS? We already have Clayton and Valentin. And we have Harris for speed.

Daver
03-27-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice


I'd be delighted if Marte had "pretty good stuff," but the fact that he's 27 and barely making a dent in the majors is a bit disconcerting, whereas Guerrier had the potential to be in our starting 5 next year.

And what do we need with another SS? We already have Clayton and Valentin. And we have Harris for speed.

Yan won't be pushing a spot on the Sox roster for a couple years,he played A ball last year.

Randar68
03-27-2002, 02:47 PM
When Howry and crew are gone we are going to miss Guerrier. I don't think I ever really beleived he was cut out to be a Major league starter, but I was sure he could be a very effective guy out of the pen.


On the other side, Yan isn't even a SS. He played more games at 2B and had something like 38 errors!

However, he does appear to have a good eye, posting about a .350 OBP with almost as many SB's as K's.

God it is hard to be positive....

RedPinStripes
03-27-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
Ohh come on, everything is a horse***** deal to you people.

I feel like I should be Grandpa Simpson:

"Ohh, Bitch, Bitch, Bitch."

Do you people ever do anything else. For crying out loud, Lets keep all our prospects. That way there is no way to find out if our younger prospects will work out.

Sure guerrier was our number 4 prospect. But we got a left handed reliever with pretty good stuff and a decent young shortstop that has speed (stole 56 bases last year).

Which I do believe are two of the things that were being bitched about before. But that's right I guess we all expect to get A-Rod for chad durham and Author Rhodes for Vining.

Are you actually going to try to back KW on this? All we do id bitch huh? Well I'm getting sick of him giving up waaaaay too much for ****. Look what the Flubs did today. They gave up a lot, but they got exactly what they needed. We didn't . And he's no veteran with 30 ip in the majors. The if prospect is 20 and played rookie ball last year. There's no way of telling what he'll turn into.

Admit it. KW got ****ed again before you call us all whiners.

Huisj
03-27-2002, 02:49 PM
Well, he does have decent strike out ratios for his career (at the major league level at least). Almost a k per inning pitched, and he hasn't walked all that many people. other than that, this move doesn't really excite me.

Anyone know what kind of stuff this guy really does have? does he throw hard? any movement? any breaking ball?

ScottyTheSoxFan
03-27-2002, 02:49 PM
what a dum@ss. is there a Sox fan bounty on KWs head yet?

Jerry_Manuel
03-27-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
God it is hard to be positive....

What do you think about Marte?

DrCrawdad
03-27-2002, 02:58 PM
If the Sox can't win ...

... build up a divisional opponent of the Cubs.

Apparently that's Kenny's philosophy.

Kenny, please look in the mirror - there is a kick me hard sign on your
back.

doctor30th
03-27-2002, 02:59 PM
I may back KW on this, and I may not. I just get sick of people jumping on these things once a press release comes out. WE don't know anything about these players. We don't even know anything about Guerrier. None of the three players in this deal have proved anything yet.

As for yan. I was referring to the fact that we have no good SS in the Minors. Its been a big complaint. I'm not looking for him to be up this year.

May I remind us all About how good Scotty Ruffcorn was in the minors.

Meatpants
03-27-2002, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
May I remind us all About how good Scotty Ruffcorn was in the minors.

I'm also not averse to stockpiling talent then trading it to fill holes as needed. Nor do I put much faith in "#4 prospect" and other labels - Mark Buehrle went from the middle of the prospect pack to #1 starter in 8 months.

That said, I don't think in today's starved pitching market you can afford to give up Sirotka, Kip W, Lowe, Fogg, and Guerrier and only come away w/ Todd Ritchie and a guy like Marte.

Randar68
03-27-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
As for yan. I was referring to the fact that we have no good SS in the Minors. Its been a big complaint. I'm not looking for him to be up this year.

We have Andy Gonzalez, Guillermo Reyes, and if we want SS prospects just to have them at SS, we could always put Sandoval and Hummel back there.

This guy is a 2B, pure and simple. We have enough 2B prospects already, thank you.

doctor30th
03-27-2002, 03:19 PM
actually we have no idea if he's a 2B or SS prospect. We don't know anything about this guy. As for having 2 prospects at SS and two Other posibilities. Your counting your chickens before their hatched.

czalgosz
03-27-2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
Well, he does have decent strike out ratios for his career (at the major league level at least). Almost a k per inning pitched, and he hasn't walked all that many people. other than that, this move doesn't really excite me.

Anyone know what kind of stuff this guy really does have? does he throw hard? any movement? any breaking ball?

Supposedly Marte has great velocity but command problems changed him from a starter to a reliever in the minors (think pre-velocity-loss Bob Howry), at least according to the Baseball Prospectus. They rank him as a good relief prospect, one ready to make an impact at the big-league level.

Yan is 20 years old (although he is from the Dominican), a switch-hitting contact hitter with no power and great speed. He plays second and short, but I have no idea how well.

I don't think Marte is tremendously better than Onan Masaoka or Ken Vining. This is the first of the panic moves that I talked about a week ago, and hoped that KW would avoid.

That leaves West and Malone as the only "A" level starting pitching prospects still in the minors. I've backed KW before, but this one leaves me scratching my head.

rmusacch
03-27-2002, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
Ohh come on, everything is a horse***** deal to you people.

I feel like I should be Grandpa Simpson:

"Ohh, Bitch, Bitch, Bitch."

Do you people ever do anything else. For crying out loud, Lets keep all our prospects. That way there is no way to find out if our younger prospects will work out.

Sure guerrier was our number 4 prospect. But we got a left handed reliever with pretty good stuff and a decent young shortstop that has speed (stole 56 bases last year).

Which I do believe are two of the things that were being bitched about before. But that's right I guess we all expect to get A-Rod for chad durham and Author Rhodes for Vining.

He has pretty good stuff? He has a career ERA over 5.

czalgosz
03-27-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch


He has pretty good stuff? He has a career ERA over 5.

Minor-league ERA's don't really mean much - with pitchers, you have to look at the scouting reports. Not to say this is a good trade (guys like Marte are a dime a dozen). Marte struggled early in his career as a starter, and has done well since moving to the bullpen.

duke of dorwood
03-27-2002, 03:35 PM
When other teams trade prospects rated this high, they get Major League talent. Being a left handed pitcher, you'd think my 27 (hopefully) he would have pitched in the Majors for some time. Williams has gutted the farm system, sent away the sound arnms we had, and got NOTHING. I'd rather have Kip, Lowe Fogg and Gurrier than Ritchie and these zeroes we got today. It's time to get mad.

:nardi

Good riddance. Gurrier refused to do my arm exercises.

Randar68
03-27-2002, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
actually we have no idea if he's a 2B or SS prospect. We don't know anything about this guy. As for having 2 prospects at SS and two Other posibilities. Your counting your chickens before their hatched.

This guy hasn't played at any higher levels than Reyes. And yes, I do know a bit about him, obviously a bit more than you do.

HE IS A SECOND BASEMAN!

CerberusWG
03-27-2002, 03:39 PM
This one makes a little sense to me.

No, wait now it doesn't!

We traded away a very good prospect for a Lefty who we will need, and another infielder.


Hey, remeber that one time, where we had, like a boatload of young arms?

Where the hell are they know?

czalgosz
03-27-2002, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
When other teams trade prospects rated this high, they get Major League talent. Being a left handed pitcher, you'd think my 27 (hopefully) he would have pitched in the Majors for some time. Williams has gutted the farm system, sent away the sound arnms we had, and got NOTHING. I'd rather have Kip, Lowe Fogg and Gurrier than Ritchie and these zeroes we got today. It's time to get mad.

The problem isn't that Marte sucks - from what I've read, he projects to be a very good middle reliever. The problem is that top starting pitching prospects are a lot harder to find than good lefty relievers. The Sox had the right idea last season in taking chances on Embree and Pulsipher.

I don't understand what Williams was thinking on this one. This is a panic move. Marte will make the team, no doubt about that one, but the Sox could have gotten him or someone like him much cheaper.

CerberusWG
03-27-2002, 03:45 PM
I could have understood, say Almonte for marte, but Guerrier?

Either KW knows that Grrr has his arm blown out, or there is someone we don't know who is a phenom.

bringbackrobin
03-27-2002, 03:45 PM
FIRE KENNY WILLIAMS!!!

CerberusWG
03-27-2002, 03:48 PM
Maybe KW meant Ginter....

:KW

"Geuwho? I thought it was Ginter. Whatever, same thing."

rmusacch
03-27-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Minor-league ERA's don't really mean much - with pitchers, you have to look at the scouting reports. Not to say this is a good trade (guys like Marte are a dime a dozen). Marte struggled early in his career as a starter, and has done well since moving to the bullpen.

That was his major league ERA.

cheeses_h_rice
03-27-2002, 03:52 PM
Found this on the Sox MLB board, from Baseball America...says that Marte is a middle reliever. My guess is he'll start the season with the Sox, which means...no Porzio?

Pirates grab Guerrier

By John Manuel
March 27, 2002

The Chicago White Sox traded righthander Matt Guerrier, their No. 4 prospect, to the Pirates on Wednesday for lefthander Damaso Marte and second baseman Edwin Yan. It’s the second deal between the two clubs since the end of last season, as the White Sox acquired Todd Ritchie from the Pirates (with catcher Lee Evans) at the Winter Meetings for righthanders Josh Fogg, Sean Lowe and Kip Wells.

Guerrier, a 10th-round pick in 1999 out of Kent State, was one of the biggest surprises of the 2001 minor league season. He led the minors with 18 wins last season, his first as a starter, and is 26-8, 2.80 overall in 267 career minor league innings.

Guerrier, 23, has good stuff–his curveball, slider and changeup are considered plus pitches–and better command, but his 88-89 mph fastball that kept Guerrier behind such White Sox prospects as Jon Rauch and Corwin Malone.

Marte is the only player in the trade with big league experience, having appeared in 28 games between the Mariners and Pirates. He went 0-1, 4.71 in 36 innings (with 39 strikeouts) for the Pirates last year and will serve as a lefthanded middle reliever for Chicago.

Yan ranked as the Pirates’ No. 26 prospect after hitting .283-2-24 with 56 stolen bases in his first full pro season. The Dominican native is listed as being 20 years old.

Bmr31
03-27-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
Ohh come on, everything is a horse***** deal to you people.

I feel like I should be Grandpa Simpson:

"Ohh, Bitch, Bitch, Bitch."

Do you people ever do anything else. For crying out loud, Lets keep all our prospects. That way there is no way to find out if our younger prospects will work out.

Sure guerrier was our number 4 prospect. But we got a left handed reliever with pretty good stuff and a decent young shortstop that has speed (stole 56 bases last year).

Which I do believe are two of the things that were being bitched about before. But that's right I guess we all expect to get A-Rod for chad durham and Author Rhodes for Vining.


ummm yes maybe there is too much negativity here but this was another horse**** deal by a horse**** GM.....no two ways about it. Oh and in case you havent noticed, since kw took over we have gone from a promising organization to an average one...

duke of dorwood
03-27-2002, 04:02 PM
I deal with lots of bankrupt companies, and Williams is liquidating the farm system. And this organization is very ordinary right now. We cant get our top prospects into the line-up. The organization is just hanging on to things Scheuler did, after that, it's zilch for Williams.

:KW

Now appearing in Terminator 4

dougs78
03-27-2002, 04:03 PM
Ok, I'm not jumping to judgement here, I mean its true that I've never seen any of these three players even once in my life. Maybe none of the 3 will ever turn out to be anything, who knows? But the fact of the matter was that Matt Guerrier is a highly regarded prospect. It just seems like we could have done better on this deal.

Maybe Randar can help me out here, but how does Guerrier compare to Mario Ramos, just as far as prospect wise? It seems to me that they are somewhat close together. Assuming they are, why was Oakland able to package Ramos with a flop of a prospect like Jason Hart and get Carlos Pena in return while all we can get is a middle reliever and a single A second baseman.

I'm not saying Marte is not a good pitcher, but I think there are other guys like that in baseball. This is exactly why I wanted to trade Sean Lowe last year in the midseason. Middle Relievers are like gold to some teams and I truly can't understand why. Why can the brewers get Quevedo for Weathers and we get Marte for Guerrier??? It just leaves me confused.

CerberusWG
03-27-2002, 04:06 PM
Let's go over KW's trades, shall we?

Screw the Minor Leaguers and stuff, just major ones.


Bradford for Olivio. Considering we have no depth at C in the Minors, this was a smart move.

--

Myette for Clayton

Myette blew, Clayton did what he had to last year. Had 7 errors, and hit .300+ after th All-Star Break. Delayed Crede. Push.

--

Wells for Siro, etc.

Push, Siro's elbow isn't improving.

--

Ritchie for Wells, Fogg, Lowe

I still believe Wells will suck this year. the guy has no head. lowe will hurt us, BIG TIME. Fogg will also hurt us, but not as much. Osuna seems to be back on track, which is good.

--

Osuna for Minor-Leaguers

Excellent, EXCELLENT trade. Osuna is coming around now, and we got Mullet back.

--

JB for some minor leaguers

Both sides got crap. I wish we would have gotten major league crap instead of minor league crap. Push

--

Guerrier for Marte, Minor Leaguer

Retarded.

--

Singleton for Harris

Best move he's made.

--

Erstad for Garland, Slow Swing, Almonte, West AXED

Would love to have Erstad but 4 for 1? Stupid.

So, he has made some dumb moves, some good ones, and some that will have to wait a year to find out whether they are good or not.

duke of dorwood
03-27-2002, 04:08 PM
Because we have

:KW

czalgosz
03-27-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch


That was his major league ERA.

You're actually going to count the 8 2/3 innings he pitched for Seattle in 1999? That's kind of a low blow. His numbers for the Pirates last year weren't too bad.

But that's beside the point. Even if Marte turns out to be good, it's still not a good move. There are a lot of lefty relievers out there that can be had a lot cheaper.

The Sox pass up first Vining, then Masaoka, and now apparently Porzio for this guy. Is he really that much better? Does Ken Williams secretly work for the Pirates or something?

Dadawg_77
03-27-2002, 04:21 PM
Jon Garland for Mat Karchner(sp?) that is what this deal reminds me of.

I haven't been detractor of Kenny up untill this point, I could see some logic in his deals up till now.

I wish I remebered the Fire Kenny tag, because I need it now.

spaz
03-27-2002, 04:27 PM
Yeah this trade is awful for the sox's in one respect, giving up one of the best younger arm strictly for left handed relief help. What I don't get is why we need a lefty we have wuncsh, and porzio yes wunsch has not looked good in the spring , but the same can not be said for porzio. SO If we already have two lefty relivers why do we need more? That is my question to bozo, aka kenny williams

Unless the sox either plan to ditch wunch or porzio this makes no sense, or unless the plan to have a lefty heavy bullpen.

I think in the end the will dump porzio and he will catch on with another team and do well. I have a question for kenny.

So kenny why do you dump free talent(porizo) and then trade away good pitching prospects for compareable talent?

Oh yeah I have a tip to Kenny if you want to stop being raped in trades take the following names off your speed dial list
Dave Littlefield and Billy Beane.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:7sSOAkSfMXEC:www.lachances.com/Family/Xmas00/Submission.jpg a meeting between littlefield and williams to discuss a trade, with williams just rolling over!

TimChamp
03-27-2002, 04:33 PM
At first, I felt sick when I thought about how good a deal that the sCrUBS are able to get what they want on the other side of town (especially the one today...WOW, what a deal). Then I thought to myself, why does KW always trade for unknown "good" pitchers. Then I got the one BIG answer/reason for all the moves that the Sox have made this year (and probably last year too)...MONEY!!!

Simply put, the Flubs can get whoever they want because they have the greenlight on the cash flow...WE DON'T!!!

I know it sounds like an excuse, but give KW credit, like the man said before, "We can't spend a $1 if we only have 25 cents." I bet everytime he makes a move, Jerry Reinsdorf has to approve it...

I feel better now and you know why, because I think maybe next year we can get the guys we really need. After all, we ARE hosting the All-Star Game in 2003, right? I think that is the year we should go all out for it and therefore, the Sox would get the $$$$ that they have desperately been asking for...

I mean, this year, they'll do better with attendance and by next year, the Sox could be running the team on the positive side... :smile:

Champ out...Go White Sox! World Series Champions 2003!!! :gulp:

kermittheefrog
03-27-2002, 04:57 PM
Wow what a huge OVERREACTION.

Matt Guerrier:
I dunno what made Baseball America slot him at #4 on the Sox prospect list but I think they very are wrong about that. John Sickels of the Stats Minor League Scouting Notebook agrees with me as he has Guerrier as a grade C+ prospect. It makes sense, Guerrier's had some success but only struck out 43 men in 81 AAA innings. Good prospects should have a K:IP ratio of about 1:1 Guerrier barely made .5:1 @ AAA and @ AA his K rate was better but still below average. Neither Sickels, Baseball Prospectus nor John Benson's Future Stars see Guerrier turning to be more than a back of the rotation and long relief swingman. Baseball America is the only publication which likes the guy which I think is really weird because he's not your typical "BA favorite" who impresses scouts with radar gun readings.

Note: Some other prospects in the Sox organization who were C+'s in the Minor League Scouting Notebook: Edwin Almonte, Delvis Lantigua, Miguel Olivo, Casey Rogowski, Mario Valenzuela.

Damaso Marte:
I don't see any difference between him and the guys we've tossed out/stiffled in the minors, Onan Masoaka and Ken Vining.

Edwin Yan:
Could be a steal. Has leadoff potential, an idea of the strike zone to go with blazing speed but we won't know how good he is for a year or two. Also a C+ prospect in Stats Minor League Scouting Notebook.

So what do I see? I see the Sox traded one C+ prospect for a younger one with more upside while picking up another useful lefty they seem to like more than the guys in their organization. It could turn out well and is not by any means a horrible deal.

HawkDJ
03-27-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by spaz
[B]Yeah this trade is awful for the sox's in one respect, giving up one of the best younger arm strictly for left handed relief help. What I don't get is why we need a lefty we have wuncsh, and porzio yes wunsch has not looked good in the spring , but the same can not be said for porzio. SO If we already have two lefty relivers why do we need more? That is my question to bozo, aka kenny williams


I like Kenny's idea. I think Mante will be better than Porzio. Wunsch is a 1 batter kind of reliver while Mante is a longer reliever. I just think he gave up too much.

HawkDJ
03-27-2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
So what do I see? I see the Sox traded one C+ prospect for a younger one with more upside while picking up another useful lefty they seem to like more than the guys in their organization. It could turn out well and is not by any means a horrible deal. [/B]

Nothing like a Stathead to bring up some good points and raise your spirits! Thanks man. :D:

FarWestChicago
03-27-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2


Nothing like a Stathead to bring up some good points and raise your spirits! Thanks man. :D: Maybe Kermit deserves a reward. :)

:kermit

Randar68
03-27-2002, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I see the Sox traded one C+ prospect for a younger one

Well, he is Dominican, I guess that leaves this question still up in the air...

HawkDJ
03-27-2002, 05:23 PM
Although we still have some pitching prospets the number keeps getting smaller and that is what is scaring me.

CerberusWG
03-27-2002, 05:31 PM
Here are Marte's stats from SP this year:

D Marte 4.15 7 0 0 0 8.2 7 4 4


4.15 ERA 7 G 8.2 IP 7 H 4 R 4 ER

D Marte 3 7 8 1 0 0

3 HR 7 BB 8 SO 1 HB

Jerry_Manuel
03-27-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Maybe Kermit deserves a reward.

How about you pay his speeding ticket?

:)

RichH55
03-27-2002, 05:37 PM
Thanks Kermit....I was almost ready to jump off a bridge there:) THis is definately a two-three year down the road deal in terms of judging who won

Huisj
03-27-2002, 05:46 PM
3 homers in 8.2 innings, reminds me of bryan ward.

spaz
03-27-2002, 06:12 PM
Well actually you can say that, marte may be younger and have more upside. However I think we should have hung onto porzio
he has been pretty effective this spring. and was best of all free

And actually by looking at his stats this spring porzio has posted a 1.93 era this spring not to shabby I might say. Better spring stats then the guy they traded for. I really see this as a panic move by kw and you never, I repeat never trade a young starter for a reliver unless he's a stud closer. Though this trade is still a wait and see cause we got a decent middle infield prospect.

This just makes me angry that a mouth ago it looked like kw had changed his ways and could pull off a trade, with the harris for slow swing. But I guess he's back to his old John Hart"ish" dump young talent for middle of the major league talent. It Just makes me angry. :angry:

Viva Magglio
03-27-2002, 07:10 PM
KW is proving that he is just as good a GM as he was a player.

Chisoxfn
03-27-2002, 07:36 PM
Well I'm not a fan of this trade but I got reasons behind it. First off I think KW went out and got us a lefty because he paniced. We have Wunsch back, we have Porizio and we have Parque who could come in and work back to becoming a starter from the pen if Wunsch or Porizio faltered.

We also could of signed guys like Radinsky or Nitowski to minor league deals which could of been back up plans as well. Personally I think Porizio is the real deal. The other reason I don't like this deal is cause I liked Guerrier, he's one of those guys that knew how to pitch. To me he's a right handed Mark Buehrle and a guy we could of used and definately got more out of.

I saw what the Cubs did today and I loved the move on their part. They gave up Tavarez a proven but got a proven closer in return and a damn good pitcher thats on the brink of putting things together and his spring training bb numbers may show he's going to do just that.

I ask KW if he couldn't of done that move, Guerrier and Howry and if needed a crap minor leaguer for Clement and Alfonseca.

That move would of let us work Rauch up and get healthy from the minors, something he needs and it would really deepen our bullpen. It would leave Osuna and Glover as mid relievers, and Atonion and Foulke as a top relieving duo in baseball. Whats no to like about that move. It would make us better now and it wouldn't hurt our future.

Does that move not make sense to ya and I don't want to here it isn't as good as what the Cubs offered cause to me it is. They get a cheap reliever in Howry to replace Antonio, they also get a cheap starter that has potential and would differ from their other starters in Guerrier(He would be the change of pace pitcher) and I'd be willing to give up Ginter or someone along that lines if it was needed.

Lip Man 1
03-27-2002, 07:45 PM
People are asking WHY the Sox couldn't trade the prospect for a veteran whom the team can use right NOW.

Simple, real pitchers, real players, real vets COST MONEY!

The Sox are unwilling to spend one thin dime until the fans storm the gates to Comiskey Park and make Uncle jerry happy. (and then MAYBE he'll do something...)

That's NOT going to happen gang, and if the team goes south this season and attendance drops again, the Sox will cut the payroll AGAIN next season.

By the way, Kenny Williams insulted Sox fans AGAIN. Go to the "official" story on the trade on the White Sox "official" site and read his comments. The story is on that site now.

Lip

TimChamp
03-27-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
People are asking WHY the Sox couldn't trade the prospect for a veteran whom the team can use right NOW.

Simple, real pitchers, real players, real vets COST MONEY!

The Sox are unwilling to spend one thin dime until the fans storm the gates to Comiskey Park and make Uncle jerry happy. (and then MAYBE he'll do something...)

That's NOT going to happen gang, and if the team goes south this season and attendance drops again, the Sox will cut the payroll AGAIN next season.

By the way, Kenny Williams insulted Sox fans AGAIN. Go to the "official" story on the trade on the White Sox "official" site and read his comments. The story is on that site now.

Lip

That's exactly what I said...I knew KW would use the payroll/attendance excuse again, but it's the truth, what else can you say?

Daver
03-27-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
People are asking WHY the Sox couldn't trade the prospect for a veteran whom the team can use right NOW.

Simple, real pitchers, real players, real vets COST MONEY!

The Sox are unwilling to spend one thin dime until the fans storm the gates to Comiskey Park and make Uncle jerry happy. (and then MAYBE he'll do something...)

That's NOT going to happen gang, and if the team goes south this season and attendance drops again, the Sox will cut the payroll AGAIN next season.

By the way, Kenny Williams insulted Sox fans AGAIN. Go to the "official" story on the trade on the White Sox "official" site and read his comments. The story is on that site now.

Lip



The Sox are operating on a payroll budget of 57 million dollars,if you have numbers to show that their payroll can be significantly higher that without the business showing a loss I would love to see them.The last time I checked owning an MLB franchise is a business,and businesses that operate in the red for extended periods of time end up like the Expos.

Again I would love to see the numbers,but I doubt you can produce them,you would rather point out the negative and leave it at that.

Pete_SSAC
03-27-2002, 08:25 PM
From where I see it....

Ok, here we go. Now, I'm not going to be very... up on this trade. At best, I'm neutral, at worst, I don't really like it. However, this isn't the tear at our clothes, rip our eyes out and wet oursleves trade that a lot of us are doing. I'm guessing that you read Kermit's post. If not, do so, it's in this thread. Anyway, here's how I see it.

Matt is slightly overrated. How old is he? Also, we are not quite sure of what to make of the fact on wither last year was a fluke or not. We didn't get a whole lot in retun though. Did we get a lefty, yeah. Do we need one, yeah. But is he better than what we can get? Ummm... maybe. Did that infielder we get woth it? Maybe.

The fact is, there's a whole lot of ifs here. So that why I'm saying I feel.... meh. Right now. It could work out. I might not. Wait see... and for the love of Pete, change your underware.

- Pete

czalgosz
03-27-2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Pete_SSAC
From where I see it....

Ok, here we go. Now, I'm not going to be very... up on this trade. At best, I'm neutral, at worst, I don't really like it. However, this isn't the tear at our clothes, rip our eyes out and wet oursleves trade that a lot of us are doing. I'm guessing that you read Kermit's post. If not, do so, it's in this thread. Anyway, here's how I see it.

Matt is slightly overrated. How old is he? Also, we are not quite sure of what to make of the fact on wither last year was a fluke or not. We didn't get a whole lot in retun though. Did we get a lefty, yeah. Do we need one, yeah. But is he better than what we can get? Ummm... maybe. Did that infielder we get woth it? Maybe.

The fact is, there's a whole lot of ifs here. So that why I'm saying I feel.... meh. Right now. It could work out. I might not. Wait see... and for the love of Pete, change your underware.

- Pete

Guerrier's 23. He made the rare conversion from the bullpen to the rotation in the minors - he was considered a closer prospect when the Sox picked him up.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

PaleHoseGeorge
03-27-2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by TimChamp
That's exactly what I said...I knew KW would use the payroll/attendance excuse again, but it's the truth, what else can you say?

If Jerry Reinsdorf honestly can't afford anything more than a $57 million payroll, he really ought to sell the ballclub and collect that $180 million profit on his paltry $20 million investment. Believe me, a ballclub with a sweetheart lease on a 100 diamond suite ballpark in the nation's #3 market would not go begging for buyers.

I'm really sick of this guy crying poor. Sell the ballclub and he won't be "poor" anymore. This guy has no shame.

:reinsy
"Who, me?"

voodoochile
03-27-2002, 08:49 PM
I'm really sick of this guy crying poor. Sell the ballclub and he won't be "poor" anymore. This guy has no shame.

Indeed...

One other thing about the trade though. It sounds like Marte is more MLB ready than the other minor leaguers in our system. Porzio may or may not be ready, though he seems pretty close. Still, there are other question marks in the bullpen. If Wunsch falters, or Glover struggles, they will have at least one guy they can call on with some major league experience. If those K/BB and K/IP ratios stays the same, Marte may be very, very helpful. Sox are not short on potential starters with Biddle and Parque both expected to be competing by mid-May. They need to keep it together early in the season when the bullpen and hitting are going to have to carry the team to an extent until the starting pitching shakes out.

czalgosz
03-27-2002, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Indeed...

One other thing about the trade though. It sounds like Marte is more MLB ready than the other minor leaguers in our system. Porzio may or may not be ready, though he seems pretty close. Still, there are other question marks in the bullpen. If Wunsch falters, or Glover struggles, they will have at least one guy they can call on with some major league experience. If those K/BB and K/IP ratios stays the same, Marte may be very, very helpful. Sox are not short on potential starters with Biddle and Parque both expected to be competing by mid-May. They need to keep it together early in the season when the bullpen and hitting are going to have to carry the team to an extent until the starting pitching shakes out.

Porzio turns 30 this year. If he's not ready now, he'll never be. Other than that, good points.

kermittheefrog
03-27-2002, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Indeed...

One other thing about the trade though. It sounds like Marte is more MLB ready than the other minor leaguers in our system. Porzio may or may not be ready, though he seems pretty close. Still, there are other question marks in the bullpen. If Wunsch falters, or Glover struggles, they will have at least one guy they can call on with some major league experience. If those K/BB and K/IP ratios stays the same, Marte may be very, very helpful. Sox are not short on potential starters with Biddle and Parque both expected to be competing by mid-May. They need to keep it together early in the season when the bullpen and hitting are going to have to carry the team to an extent until the starting pitching shakes out.

Good points about the K/BB and K/IP. Marte could be more than just a lefty specialist, he's a former starter and throws hard, he deserves a chance to get righties out too. I think it might even be damaging to use guys like him as just lefty specialists. Although I still feel the same way about Onan Masoaka.

HawkDJ
03-27-2002, 09:37 PM
The more that I think about this trade, it could actually be a good one. It's tough to say right now but this trade could surprise some of you.

bc2k
03-27-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Indeed...

One other thing about the trade though. It sounds like Marte is more MLB ready than the other minor leaguers in our system. Porzio may or may not be ready, though he seems pretty close. Still, there are other question marks in the bullpen. If Wunsch falters, or Glover struggles, they will have at least one guy they can call on with some major league experience. If those K/BB and K/IP ratios stays the same, Marte may be very, very helpful. Sox are not short on potential starters with Biddle and Parque both expected to be competing by mid-May. They need to keep it together early in the season when the bullpen and hitting are going to have to carry the team to an extent until the starting pitching shakes out.

This post calmed me down about this trade more than any other. Good analysis Voodoo. We do have starter help with Biddle, and the Sox need to hold the bullpen together especially to start the season and having a healthy lefty in the bullpen does that.

When I first heard of this trade watching the news, they told of the Cubs trade first, and then of the Sox. Hearing the Cubs trade, I thought, "Wow, another smart trade by McPhail." Once the newsanchor said, "and the Sox also made a trade today", I got very nervous. It was my natural reaction to hearing about a Sox trade. I was holding my breath. That shows my confidence in KW.

After hearing the trade I thought, ***? I didn't know anything about any of the men traded, but after hearing some of you guys in weeks past praise Guerrier, I knew he was a quality prospect. He is 23 and came out of nowhere last year with some impressive stats. He is obviously an improving player, on his way up. So while he may have been rated as a c+ prospect, I believe his stock will only rise in the near future. Look at his upside compared the Marte's and the infielder's. Guerrier is on the way up and trading him now is imho, absolutely premature.

harwar
03-28-2002, 07:46 AM
What this trade shows is twofold.First,that K.W. is really starting to panic because hes'realized that his pitching staff is a joke.Secondly,that K.W.may go down in Sox history as quite possibly the worst GM that this organization ever had.Oh well,maybe we can make another trade with the pirates and get Sean Lowe back,he could be our no.3 starter.

bjmarte
03-28-2002, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by harwar
Oh well,maybe we can make another trade with the pirates and get Sean Lowe back,he could be our no.3 starter.

That is when I give up on the season and start to call for KW & JM's heads.

charlie browned
03-28-2002, 09:40 AM
Pittsburgh's view: they got a steal. And they're right.


''(Marte's) command with his fastball was off this spring and his slider was flat,'' Pirates manager Lloyd McClendon said. ``I don't know if he was tired from pitching winter ball, but he certainly didn't have the same velocity he had at the end of last season.''

Pittsburgh acquired Marte from the Yankees in June for infielder Enrique Wilson. The left-hander was out of options and wasn't going to make the Pirates' 25-man roster.

``There are a lot of teams looking for left-handed pitching,'' [general manager Dave] Littlefield said. ``Rather than getting $20,000 for losing him on waivers, we got a Triple-A pitcher who won 18 games. That's a no-brainer.''


I believe Littlefield is referring to Kenny Williams in that last sentence.

HawkDJ
03-28-2002, 10:32 AM
Don't you think KW should've known Marte was out of options and would have been waived?