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View Full Version : When will the offense finally pick it up?


JermaineDye05
05-03-2007, 12:08 AM
Anaheim?
Minnesota?
Never? <-(for the dark clouds)

WhiteSox5187
05-03-2007, 12:10 AM
Boy that's the million dollar question, isn't it? It might not be until we get home and play KC. Offense is so weird, all it takes is one good night and then BOOM! All of a sudden everybody is hitting the cover off the ball.

Rowandws33
05-03-2007, 12:19 AM
maybe we need to give joeboo some rum.:gulp:

ChicagoG19
05-03-2007, 12:56 AM
The team is only batting 22 points above the mendoza line. Its almost unbearable to watch the offense right now.

IlliniSox4Life
05-03-2007, 01:02 AM
11 days.

oeo
05-03-2007, 01:05 AM
Friday. If it can turn off suddenly against the Angels, I guess it can do the opposite. :dunno:

ChicagoG19
05-03-2007, 01:08 AM
11 days. How precise

Hitmen77
05-03-2007, 09:14 AM
This is the worst part of following a team - waiting for them to break out of a slump. You know the talent is there, but day after day there's no sign of life. It's maddening.

When do Thome and Podsednik come back? Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like either one is on a fast track to return.:(:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/368692,CST-SPT-soxnt03.article
Guillen has no indication of how long it will be until designated hitter Jim Thome (strained right rib cage) is back from the 15-day disabled list....


As for Scott Podsednik (strained right adductor), Guillen was thinking late May at first but now is looking even further. ''Podsednik, I don't count on him until June,'' Guillen said.

IndianWhiteSox
05-03-2007, 09:25 AM
When Greg Walker gets the boot!

But also, it really pisses me off how they have a guy coaching at 1B who has almost 3000 hits in his career and it seems that no one is approaching him for advice or that maybe they aren't listening to him at all. Not to mention, when you have people like Ozzie Guillen as your manager, you know the same guy who won a GG and played SS better than almost everyone in the history of the game, if he can't get people like Mack and Ozuna to at least be average fielders, then you know the problem may be in the players and not so much the coaches.

:angry:

itsnotrequired
05-03-2007, 09:29 AM
Q: How many Rude Boys does it take to jump start the offense?

A: Four. One to swing a hot bat and three more to pick it up, pick it up, pick it up...

*tumbleweeds*

ondafarm
05-03-2007, 09:29 AM
The team is only batting 22 points above the mendoza line. Its almost unbearable to watch the offense right now.

The Mendoza line is .215, the career average of Mario Mendoza (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/alltime/playercard?playerId=9281&type=0) . You may be thinking of the simplified Mendoza line .200 which was what the Braves announcers of the late 80s and 90s utilized because they couldn't remember .215.

rdwj
05-03-2007, 09:29 AM
You know the talent is there

That's the thing that people keep saying, but I'm not sure I agree. With Thome out and Mac and Sweeney in, is the talent there??? It seems to me that Paulie and Dye have a TON of weight on their shoulders right now and they show no signs of being able to carry it alone.

I don't know. It seems to me that they're going to improve some, but I don't expect a huge jump in productivity with the current line-up.

eriqjaffe
05-03-2007, 09:30 AM
But also, it really pisses me off how they have a guy coaching at 1B who has almost 3000 hits in his career and it seems that no one is approaching him for advice or that maybe they aren't listening to him at all.I don't think Harold would be a good choice for a hitting coach. I mean, sure, Harold was my favorite Sox player growing up, but I don't think looking at somebody silently would be an effective coaching strategy.

hi im skot
05-03-2007, 09:31 AM
Q: How many Rude Boys does it take to jump start the offense?

A: Four. One to swing a hot bat and three more to pick it up, pick it up, pick it up...

*tumbleweeds*

Awesome. :D:

lumpyspun
05-03-2007, 09:34 AM
I don't think Harold would be a good choice for a hitting coach. I mean, sure, Harold was my favorite Sox player growing up, but I don't think looking at somebody silently would be an effective coaching strategy.

Ha, not to mention Harold had a huge leg kick and stood about 8 feet away from the plate. I'm not sure that approach would work for most MLB players.:smile:

IndianWhiteSox
05-03-2007, 09:39 AM
I don't think Harold would be a good choice for a hitting coach. I mean, sure, Harold was my favorite Sox player growing up, but I don't think looking at somebody silently would be an effective coaching strategy.

Ha, not to mention Harold had a huge leg kick and stood about 8 feet away from the plate. I'm not sure that approach would work for most MLB players.

While those statements are true, at least he would know what the hell he's talking about and he could at least be one of the few guys on the coaching staff that can relate to the "star sluggers" on this roster unlike my favorite hitting coach Greg Walker.

Madvora
05-03-2007, 10:00 AM
When Greg Walker gets the boot!

But also, it really pisses me off how they have a guy coaching at 1B who has almost 3000 hits in his career and it seems that no one is approaching him for advice or that maybe they aren't listening to him at all. Not to mention, when you have people like Ozzie Guillen as your manager, you know the same guy who won a GG and played SS better than almost everyone in the history of the game, if he can't get people like Mack and Ozuna to at least be average fielders, then you know the problem may be in the players and not so much the coaches.
:angry:
What are you talking about?

How do you know if anyone is or isn't approaching Baines?
How would Guillen make Ozuna and Mackowiak better outfielders?
How do Mackowiak and Ozuna's fielding skills have anything to do with the hitting slump that put us in 4th place?

Hitmen77
05-03-2007, 10:04 AM
That's the thing that people keep saying, but I'm not sure I agree. With Thome out and Mac and Sweeney in, is the talent there??? It seems to me that Paulie and Dye have a TON of weight on their shoulders right now and they show no signs of being able to carry it alone.

I don't know. It seems to me that they're going to improve some, but I don't expect a huge jump in productivity with the current line-up.

We may not be a total powerhouse with Thome and Pods out, but the talent is definitely there. We still have Konerko, Dye, Crede, AJ, and Iguchi - and Erstad has been hitting well. That is definitely enough talent to hit better than .221 and to score more than 2 runs a game.

The way our pitching has been going, we do have enough offensive talent to hold our own until the injured players return.

lostfan
05-03-2007, 10:06 AM
Why does it seem like the hitters never, ever go opposite field?

INSox56
05-03-2007, 10:17 AM
I almost hope it's not till after Sunday because if they get hot Friday and Saturday, Colon is throwing well enough to knock us back into another month long slump on Sunday.

rdwj
05-03-2007, 10:17 AM
We may not be a total powerhouse with Thome and Pods out, but the talent is definitely there. We still have Konerko, Dye, Crede, AJ, and Iguchi - and Erstad has been hitting well. That is definitely enough talent to hit better than .221 and to score more than 2 runs a game.

The way our pitching has been going, we do have enough offensive talent to hold our own until the injured players return.

The problem is that the team collectively plays like they are a powerhouse. When guys that aren't power hitters swing like that, you get too much of what we've been seeing lately.

It seems to me that we need a fundamental change in the way this team approaches hitting. And it's not like this is a recent problem either; hitting slumps seem to plague this team far too often. The solo-shot syndrome needs to end.

Law11
05-03-2007, 10:19 AM
You know they'll bust out with a 13 run game and then go back to a 2/3 run string. They key obviously is getting consistent. Its all a wait and see.

It reminds me of last year when we were all waiting for that run of 15 out of 20 and all we got was a 5 or 6 out of 10.

All last year we heard this team hasnt played there best ball and we're right there (never happened).

Lets hope we find some hits and string some wins together soon or we'll be looking up at the division for a while..

IndianWhiteSox
05-03-2007, 10:26 AM
When Greg Walker gets the boot!

But also, it really pisses me off how they have a guy coaching at 1B who has almost 3000 hits in his career and it seems that no one is approaching him for advice or that maybe they aren't listening to him at all. Not to mention, when you have people like Ozzie Guillen as your manager, you know the same guy who won a GG and played SS better than almost everyone in the history of the game, if he can't get people like Mack and Ozuna to at least be average fielders, then you know the problem may be in the players and not so much the coaches.

:angry:

What are you talking about?
How do you know if anyone is or isn't approaching Baines?
How would Guillen make Ozuna and Mackowiak better outfielders?
How do Mackowiak and Ozuna's fielding skills have anything to do with the hitting slump that put us in 4th place?

That's why I said it seems, not that I know for a fact and what I said about Ozuna and Mack were related to the thread.

Chips
05-03-2007, 10:41 AM
Q: How many Rude Boys does it take to jump start the offense?

A: Four. One to swing a hot bat and three more to pick it up, pick it up, pick it up...

*tumbleweeds*

:Rocker:

FedEx227
05-03-2007, 11:21 AM
Why does it seem like the hitters never, ever go opposite field?

That's something I've never understood either. Especially Thome who will NOT EVER swing late to break the shift. Look no further then Travis Hafner yesterday, he got the Thome shift so he waited on a pitch and hit a little nubber to the left side, scoring a runner from 1st and winning the game.

lostfan
05-03-2007, 11:32 AM
That's something I've never understood either. Especially Thome who will NOT EVER swing late to break the shift. Look no further then Travis Hafner yesterday, he got the Thome shift so he waited on a pitch and hit a little nubber to the left side, scoring a runner from 1st and winning the game.
Thome's got to be the worst culprit. He pulls everything, and in the late innings when I see him coming up, I figure it's either a home run or a hit right into the teeth of the shift for an easy out. For someone that's been in the league as long as him you'd think he could have the ability to adjust and hit the wide open gap in left every once in a while, at least enough to make them reluctant to shift.

But it's so many of the Sox hitters. It's probably got a lot to do with the fact that they tend to swing for the fences too often... pulling for power, etc.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2007, 11:36 AM
Thome's got to be the worst culprit. He pulls everything, and in the late innings when I see him coming up, I figure it's either a home run or a hit right into the teeth of the shift for an easy out. For someone that's been in the league as long as him you'd think he could have the ability to adjust and hit the wide open gap in left every once in a while, at least enough to make them reluctant to shift.

But it's so many of the Sox hitters. It's probably got a lot to do with the fact that they tend to swing for the fences too often... pulling for power, etc.

Thome is not going to be changing his swing anytime soon. I have no problem with Thome being a dead-pull hitter. Guys like Uribe and Iguchi are the guys that need to go opposite field more often.

oeo
05-03-2007, 11:37 AM
Why does it seem like the hitters never, ever go opposite field?

Somebody must have missed Paulie's opposite field dinger yesterday.

Thome is not going to be changing his swing anytime soon. I have no problem with Thome being a dead-pull hitter. Guys like Uribe and Iguchi are the guys that need to go opposite field more often.

Alright, again; I saw Iguchi trying to take it to right field all day yesterday. He even had a pitch to pull, and he still tried taking it to right. Iguchi is not a pull problem.

RowanDye
05-03-2007, 11:41 AM
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAGP111%7EPaul-Konerko-2005-Studio-Plus-Posters.jpg "When it flows, it will flow."

itsnotrequired
05-03-2007, 11:41 AM
Alright, again; I saw Iguchi trying to take it to right field all day yesterday. He even had a pitch to pull, and he still tried taking it to right. Iguchi is not a pull problem.

My point was more that expecting a guy like Thome to change an approach that has been working for the last 10 years is madness.

lostfan
05-03-2007, 11:44 AM
Thome is not going to be changing his swing anytime soon. I have no problem with Thome being a dead-pull hitter. Guys like Uribe and Iguchi are the guys that need to go opposite field more often.
I was going to mention that in the post you quoted but I didn't have the time to explain the full thought (I'm at work). Thome is all-or-nothing and there are no surprises with how he always hits for power (especially considering how good he's been at it in his career), all I'm saying is when you've got runners on and 2 outs it's not always a good idea to pull and expect a line drive to fall over the shift. I also don't think this is going to change either... it's just a little frustrating. Especially when you factor in the probability of him striking out like so many other power hitters, when he puts the bat on the ball, you want something to happen.

lostfan
05-03-2007, 11:45 AM
Somebody must have missed Paulie's opposite field dinger yesterday.

Well duh, I didn't mean that literally, of course every now and again someone lands an opposite-field hit. I meant that it was a dynamic that seems to apply to the whole lineup that I didn't like.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2007, 11:47 AM
I was going to mention that in the post you quoted but I didn't have the time to explain the full thought (I'm at work). Thome is all-or-nothing and there are no surprises with how he always hits for power (especially considering how good he's been at it in his career), all I'm saying is when you've got runners on and 2 outs it's not always a good idea to pull and expect a line drive to fall over the shift. I also don't think this is going to change either... it's just a little frustrating. Especially when you factor in the probability of him striking out like so many other power hitters, when he puts the bat on the ball, you want something to happen.

Thome pulling balls comes with the territory. Everyone knows he's going to pull 10 times more than he pushes.

lostfan
05-03-2007, 11:48 AM
My point was more that expecting a guy like Thome to change an approach that has been working for the last 10 years is madness.
It works for a guy that hits a lot of home runs and doubles, but not for a guy who wants to advance runners. I'm not saying I expect Thome to completely change his approach, I was just using his an example. Thome isn't really the problem.

lostfan
05-03-2007, 11:49 AM
Thome pulling balls comes with the territory. Everyone knows he's going to pull 10 times more than he pushes.
I don't think we're actually disagreeing here. Maybe I just used a bad example, but I hope my point is still made.

FedEx227
05-03-2007, 11:52 AM
I think what we're saying is, will it kill Thome to sometimes just try to move some runners over by hitting to the left side?

If Travis Hafner can change his approach that has been pretty successful and look like an idiot all for the purpose of winning a game, can't Thome do it every once and awhile?

MisterB
05-03-2007, 11:53 AM
That's the thing that people keep saying, but I'm not sure I agree. With Thome out and Mac and Sweeney in, is the talent there??? It seems to me that Paulie and Dye have a TON of weight on their shoulders right now and they show no signs of being able to carry it alone.

I don't know. It seems to me that they're going to improve some, but I don't expect a huge jump in productivity with the current line-up.

Compare the regular members of the lineup against their career averages:

Erstad -30 points
Uribe -30
Crede -35
Iguchi -35
Dye -60
Pierzynski -70
Konerko -80

Collectively that means the lineup's producing about 9 hits per week less than they should. It doesn't sound like much, but that's a significant difference. Yes Thome and Pods were the hottest hitters we had at the time, but the rest of the lineup should be putting up good enough numbers to keep them in games, especially with the pitching they've been getting so far.

lostfan
05-03-2007, 11:55 AM
I think what we're saying is, will it kill Thome to sometimes just try to move some runners over by hitting to the left side?

If Travis Hafner can change his approach that has been pretty successful, look like an idiot all for the purpose of winning a game, can't Thome?
Right. Of course I don't want him to change his entire offensive philosophy that's gotten 500 homers, but pulling a grounder or a liner right into the SS or 2b'S glove is a rally-killer, while dropping one on the left side is an easy RBI since there's literally nobody there to pick up the ball. Then again, he's a veteran slugger, and pretty set in his ways.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2007, 11:58 AM
I think what we're saying is, will it kill Thome to sometimes just try to move some runners over by hitting to the left side?

If Travis Hafner can change his approach that has been pretty successful and look like an idiot all for the purpose of winning a game, can't Thome do it every once and awhile?

Sluggers should be slugging. Its the same reason why you don't see Thome bunting. Only in rare circumstances should Thome change what he is doing.

How successful has Hafner been at going the other way? Sure, he won the game yesterday but how many times has he tried it before and whiffed or grounded weakly to the pitcher?

lostfan
05-03-2007, 12:02 PM
Sluggers should be slugging. Its the same reason why you don't see Thome bunting. Only in rare circumstances should Thome change what he is doing.

How successful has Hafner been at going the other way? Sure, he won the game yesterday but how many times has he tried it before and whiffed or grounded weakly to the pitcher?
The "rare circumstances" are what I'm talking about. Otherwise, I want to see him hitting bombs because that's what he's here to do.

As for your second point the odds of that happening are probably the same as or less than hitting sharply into the defender's glove and ending the inning.

FedEx227
05-03-2007, 12:04 PM
Sluggers should be slugging. Its the same reason why you don't see Thome bunting. Only in rare circumstances should Thome change what he is doing.

How successful has Hafner been at going the other way? Sure, he won the game yesterday but how many times has he tried it before and whiffed or grounded weakly to the pitcher?

I don't know... can you please enlighten me on how many times? All I know is the Indians won another game last night because Hafner was able to sacrifice being a "slugger" to win the game, and thus has helped his team win 9 out of their last 10.
And we aren't saying Thome should do it constantly. But I have NEVER seen him hit to the left side of the infield.

RowanDye
05-03-2007, 12:06 PM
This probably deserves its own thread, but I think it's relevant.

Since the 2005 season, Thome has played in 162 games while Frank Thomas has played in 164 games.

Hindsight is 20/20 right? My only point here is that we have 2 or 3 players with injury-histories on the roster (Pods, Thome, and Crede) and have shown an inability to overcome injuries to our position players.

Despite our great bench, we don't have much depth in the organization. The lack of positional player prospects really shows here.

Most teams would be struggling right now if they lost there leadoff hitter and one of their top run producers, but couple that with everyone else slumping at the plate and you have the makings of a dismal month of May.

I agree with other posters that the talent is there without Thome and Pods to win games. Now the guys just have to start playing like major league baseball players and get some ****ing hits!!

itsnotrequired
05-03-2007, 12:09 PM
The "rare circumstances" are what I'm talking about. Otherwise, I want to see him hitting bombs because that's what he's here to do.

As for your second point the odds of that happening are probably the same as or less than hitting sharply into the defender's glove and ending the inning.

What do you consider a "rare circumstance"? Down by one late in the game with a man on second? Bases loaded, bottom of the 9th?

I don't know... how many times?

And we aren't saying Thome should do it constantly. But I have NEVER seen him hit to the left side of the infield.

I don't know about Hafner. I guess my question is directed toward anyone who might know. My point is that if he succeeded once and failed 10 times, it isn't that impressive. Besides, Hafner sprays the ball all over the field. He isn't dead-pull like Thome.

As for Thome not hitting to the left, just look at his hitting chart from 2006 on mlb.com.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?c_id=cws&playerID=123272&statType=1

FedEx227
05-03-2007, 12:17 PM
I don't know about Hafner. I guess my question is directed toward anyone who might know. My point is that if he succeeded once and failed 10 times, it isn't that impressive.

There's no surprise that Hafner has hit .310/.433/.626 with RISP from 2004-2006 while Thome is at.250/.408/.515.

2006 Thome RISP: .336/.468/.690, 11 HR, 66 RBI in 116 at-bats
2006 Hafner RISP: .305/.472/.718, 15 HR, 81 RBI in 131 at-bats

And the hitting chart just shows even more his inability to hit a grounder to the leftside, we aren't talking about flyballs, we know he can do that. But look at how many groundouts he had to the right side in all of 2006 there is maybe 4-5 groundouts to the left side the entire year.

Look at Hafner's: http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?playerID=40009 8&statType=1 and see how many hits he had on the left side that were more then doubles that hit the wall.

Jerko
05-03-2007, 12:18 PM
He may not have done it on purpose, but I swear Thomer hit a dribbler thru the left side to drive in a run last week.......

lostfan
05-03-2007, 12:21 PM
What do you consider a "rare circumstance"? Down by one late in the game with a man on second? Bases loaded, bottom of the 9th?

Although I can feel a counterpoint coming on, I'd say a circumstance I'd like to see him NOT pull, which may or may not be "rare," is when the Sox are tied or down by one in the 7th or later, with 2 outs, and at least one runner in scoring position (but usually second). In those situations the shift is on, and unless he goes yard (rendering everything moot) he'll either strike out or hit right to a defender. But if he hits it to a gap, the runner scores. I don't think that's particularly unreasonable.

But, I didn't really intend to focus this whole discussion just on Thome. I was talking about the lineup as a whole.

MisterB
05-03-2007, 12:30 PM
Last time I checked, Thome was the best hitter in the lineup at the time he went down. He hasn't been here for these last four craptacular losses.

THOME IS NOT THE ****ING PROBLEM!

It's the rest of the lineup that needs to pull their heads out of their rears and hit.

Kindly apply blame where it belongs -

Frank Thomas was NOT the reason we didn't win a WS from 1990-2004.

The offense is NOT why we missed the playoffs last year.

Thome is NOT why the offense sucks this year.

Get real, people.

lostfan
05-03-2007, 12:32 PM
Or, you could try actually reading the posts and see what exactly we're talking about.

balke
05-03-2007, 12:40 PM
When we can inject some speed into the lineup. We already go Thome-Konerko-Dye-AJ when we are healthy. Now we don't have Pods in the lineup.

This is the worst hitting, and slowest lineup in baseball at the moment. At least we hit hr's? What would it take to get a fast SS or 2B?

FedEx227
05-03-2007, 12:42 PM
When we can inject some speed into the lineup. We already go Thome-Konerko-Dye-AJ when we are healthy. Now we don't have Pods in the lineup.

This is the worst hitting, and slowest lineup in baseball at the moment. At least we hit hr's? What would it take to get a fast SS or 2B?

Unfortunately, young starting pitching.

The Immigrant
05-03-2007, 01:44 PM
Getting Reggie Sanders from KC may not be a bad idea as a stop-gap measure. He could play LF and provide a spark to this lineup, and then remain as the fourth OF of/when Pods returns. I can't imagine it would take much to get him, as KC was actively shopping him in April.

JB98
05-03-2007, 01:50 PM
That's something I've never understood either. Especially Thome who will NOT EVER swing late to break the shift. Look no further then Travis Hafner yesterday, he got the Thome shift so he waited on a pitch and hit a little nubber to the left side, scoring a runner from 1st and winning the game.

This is just a blatantly false and ignorant post. The swing that Thome got injured on was a ground ball through the vacated area on the left side of the infield. It came in the ninth inning the first game in Kansas City. It drove in a valuable insurance run. Go back and look it up if you don't believe me.

Whitesox029
05-03-2007, 01:56 PM
Thome pulling balls comes with the territory. Everyone knows he's going to pull 10 times more than he pushes.
Agreed. I don't understand all the criticism of Thome in this thread. Sure, he could get hits by breaking the shift, but does he really need to? He's hitting .340 with a .553 OBP as it is. Why do we want to change his approach?

Konerko is whom we should be looking at, because when he starts to hit to the opposite field (which he did yesterday) it means he's starting to see the ball really well. Look for Paulie to break out this week. We've all watched him long enough to know what that opposite field HR means.

That said, I have no doubt the offense is going to improve enough for us to start winning games. Erstad and Iguchi have gotten their averages up in the .260s, and if Pierzynski, Konerko, Dye, and Crede break out like we know they're capable of doing, with the pitching we're getting, I would predict an 18-7 record the rest of May. No deep pink. To the dark clouds, I say...:rolleyes:

lostfan
05-03-2007, 01:59 PM
Agreed. I don't understand all the criticism of Thome in this thread. Sure, he could get hits by breaking the shift, but does he really need to? He's hitting .340 with a .553 OBP as it is. Why do we want to change his approach?

Is that all anybody is seeing in this thread is criticism of Thome? Really? I guess I never got my original point across.

MisterB
05-03-2007, 02:02 PM
Or, you could try actually reading the posts and see what exactly we're talking about.

I've read the posts, thank you. You've already stated you don't think Thome's the problem.

My rant was mostly from seeing posters (especially over the last year) picking out minor contributors to a problem and harping on them for pages at a time. This thread was just a trigger. My apologies for getting that out of my system.

FedEx227
05-03-2007, 02:05 PM
Is that all anybody is seeing in this thread is criticism of Thome? Really? I guess I never got my original point across.

It's because I posted and certain people on the site enjoy bad-mouthing and putting down every single thing I say because they hold a grudge from the Brian Anderson crap. Thus, when I say something I have to defend it for 9 pages from the White Sox PR department that can't stand hearing anything negative or hearing anybody offer tips. Afterall this isn't an opinion message board.

Nobody is discrediting Thome at all. All we said was it'd be nice to see the team go the other way sometimes, to which we pointed out Thome being one of the main culprits of hardly ever going the other way. I don't care if he went the other way against Kansas City last week, the fact of the matter is in 2006 almost 60-70% of his hits were to the right side.

And again we are not saying "OMG THOME SUCKS HIT TO THE LEFT SIDE" because obviously he's been an extremely successful hitter and the best on the Sox, but i'd be nice for him every once and awhile, especially with men on 2nd bas to attempt to drive the ball to the left side to at least tempt teams to stop using the shift which will open his game up even more, because they won't be playing him so heavily on the right side.

But again, Thome is not the problem at all. It was just pointing something out, that was never the intention of this thread. Thome is our best hitter and will continue to be, and I personally, along with hopefully 100% of White Sox fans can't wait for him to get back.

I never once said Thome was the problem, we were talking about going the other way, and we discussed that. Some fans need to stop jumping on people anytime they say anything that can be precieved as slightly negative and actually read the other posts instead of jumping on one persons reply.

oeo
05-03-2007, 02:05 PM
My point was more that expecting a guy like Thome to change an approach that has been working for the last 10 years is madness.

Alright, misunderstanding. :redface:

Someone said Gooch was "pull-happy" yesterday, so I thought you were implying the same thing.

lostfan
05-03-2007, 02:12 PM
I've read the posts, thank you. You've already stated you don't think Thome's the problem.

My rant was mostly from seeing posters (especially over the last year) picking out minor contributors to a problem and harping on them for pages at a time. This thread was just a trigger. My apologies for getting that out of my system.
Ok, we're good. I thought you were about to jump my case.

lostfan
05-03-2007, 02:17 PM
It's because I posted and certain people on the site enjoy bad-mouthing and putting down every single thing I say because they hold a grudge from the Brian Anderson crap. Thus, when I say something I have to defend it for 9 pages from the White Sox PR department that can't stand hearing anything negative or hearing anybody offer tips. Afterall this isn't an opinion message board.

Nobody is discrediting Thome at all. All we said was it'd be nice to see the team go the other way sometimes, to which we pointed out Thome being one of the main culprits of hardly ever going the other way. I don't care if he went the other way against Kansas City last week, the fact of the matter is in 2006 almost 60-70% of his hits were to the right side.

And again we are not saying "OMG THOME SUCKS HIT TO THE LEFT SIDE" because obviously he's been an extremely successful hitter and the best on the Sox, but i'd be nice for him every once and awhile, especially with men on 2nd bas to attempt to drive the ball to the left side to at least tempt teams to stop using the shift which will open his game up even more, because they won't be playing him so heavily on the right side.

But again, Thome is not the problem at all. It was just pointing something out, that was never the intention of this thread. Thome is our best hitter and will continue to be, and I personally, along with hopefully 100% of White Sox fans can't wait for him to get back.
Right, and I imagine other people probably agree. That's exactly what I was trying to say with more words.

I don't think it would kill Thome to do that though, and I know he can if he wanted to. I mean, you don't earn a spot on the short list of all-time HR leaders without the ability to see the ball well enough to choose where you want the hit to go... especially when you're not trying to knock it out of the park.

And this is not bashing Thome at all. I'd like to see other hitters do it too, but Thome is the easiest example.

mcg
05-03-2007, 04:25 PM
I've been reading some old Uni-Watch articles and I think I found the problem with the offense:

"With the team struggling and manager Jeff Torborg having just been fired, (Mike) Redmond ambled off to the indoor batting cage wearing nothing but shoes, socks, and batting gloves. The team won that day, and Redmond got two hits..."

They've been wearing clothes in the batting cage! :D:

Uni-Watch article here (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/070413). Article about Redmond here (http://www.viewfromthebleachers.com/nucleus/plugins/mailtoafriend/mailfriend.php?itemid=433).

ws05champs
05-03-2007, 06:27 PM
When we can inject some speed into the lineup. We already go Thome-Konerko-Dye-AJ when we are healthy. Now we don't have Pods in the lineup.

I think that's the key right there. In 2005 when Pods was not in the line up the offense had trouble. Pods getting on base worries the pitchers. They make a mistake and they're down at least 1-0 in the first innning. Now they spend more attention trying not to loose rather than trying to win and they start making more mistakes. We need Pods back.

slowlearner
05-03-2007, 06:46 PM
Everyone keeps saying things will get better when we get hot. Maybe so, but what separates a third/fourth place team from a first place team isn't how many you win when you're hot, it's how many you win when your not firing on all cylinders. That's the difference between a 90-95 win team in first place and an 80-85 win team in third. That's the problem.

I know no one wants to hear this (myself included), but I think if the team is around .500 at the all-star break, it's white flag time.

slowlearner
05-03-2007, 06:52 PM
Getting Reggie Sanders from KC may not be a bad idea as a stop-gap measure. He could play LF and provide a spark to this lineup, and then remain as the fourth OF of/when Pods returns. I can't imagine it would take much to get him, as KC was actively shopping him in April.

I completely agree. However, I do think it will take more to get him now than in April. He's played very well lately. If he keeps it up KC can hold him out around the AS break and get a king's ransom in return. Sox will have to give up a lot to get now. That said, the way the outfield currently looks it might just be a price worth paying.

thomas35forever
05-03-2007, 07:06 PM
I think that's the key right there. In 2005 when Pods was not in the line up the offense had trouble. Pods getting on base worries the pitchers. They make a mistake and they're down at least 1-0 in the first innning. Now they spend more attention trying not to loose rather than trying to win and they start making more mistakes. We need Pods back.
If this is true, it's going to be a long month for our Sox.

JB98
05-03-2007, 07:33 PM
I think that's the key right there. In 2005 when Pods was not in the line up the offense had trouble. Pods getting on base worries the pitchers. They make a mistake and they're down at least 1-0 in the first innning. Now they spend more attention trying not to loose rather than trying to win and they start making more mistakes. We need Pods back.

Until then, we need Erstad to run when he's on base. He led off the game with a single yesterday, and he didn't try to steal. I think they tried a hit-and-run with Iguchi which resulted in a foul ball.

As a matter of fact, Darin, Tad, Pablo and even Mack, Sweeney and Terrero need to run if they reach base. We can't be afraid to lose outs on the bases. When you're struggling, I think you need to be more aggressive than usual. Aggressive play is one way to try to break out of a deep slump.

We can't buy into Konerko's jive about "It will flow when it flows," or whatever. By the time it starts "flowing," we could be 10 games out. The rest of the division is not going to wait for us to get healthy and/or figure things out.

paciorek1983
05-03-2007, 07:36 PM
I feel like the offense will get rolling when they're on the brink of being almost insignificant in the race. This team is a headcase offensively, it has been for years and it will continue to be until the approach is changed.

Walker29
05-03-2007, 08:21 PM
The Sox "O" falls down a well...bats go silent. Gets kicked by mule....bats erupt! Gosh, I don't know.

Hitmen77
05-03-2007, 08:21 PM
Everyone keeps saying things will get better when we get hot. Maybe so, but what separates a third/fourth place team from a first place team isn't how many you win when you're hot, it's how many you win when your not firing on all cylinders. That's the difference between a 90-95 win team in first place and an 80-85 win team in third. That's the problem.

I know no one wants to hear this (myself included), but I think if the team is around .500 at the all-star break, it's white flag time.

But, 4 games ago the Sox had just won 7 out of 9 games. Until these last 4 games, I think they had done a pretty good job of winning and staying near the top of the division with a .230 offense.

I know these last 4 games have felt like 4 weeks to all of us, but I'm not panicking just yet. Let's just hope they pull out of this dive fast. Of course, the obvious difference in the last 4 games is the loss of Thome. Hopefully he'll be back in 10 days or soon after.

Tragg
05-04-2007, 04:25 PM
Anaheim?
Minnesota?
Never? <-(for the dark clouds)
Ozzie has his dream offensive team - hack away hitters up and down the lineup.
My guess is we'll struggle to score runs all season due to a)too many poor hitters in the lineup; b)strange order of hitters; and c)moves like pinch-hitting with .050 hitters with no power. But this is what Ozzie wants - we'll see if swing at everything hitters with no power and low obp can score runs.
So far, the returns aren't good. What runs we score are scored via power, and the slap hitting isn't scoring a thing. Unfortunately, but not suprisingly, the power is generally with no one on (because no one is getting on).

ondafarm
05-04-2007, 05:05 PM
. . . the slap hitting isn't scoring a thing. . .

Apart from Pods, I wouldn't call any of the guys on the White Sox a 'slap hitter'. I may be using the term more technically than you.

JB98
05-04-2007, 05:17 PM
Apart from Pods, I wouldn't call any of the guys on the White Sox a 'slap hitter'. I may be using the term more technically than you.

Frankly, I don't see anyone in the lineup who is trying to "slap" the ball.

ondafarm
05-04-2007, 11:14 PM
Frankly, I don't see anyone in the lineup who is trying to "slap" the ball.

If you mean their current lineup I'd say I agree with you. I have seen both Iguchi and Erstad do it on occasion. Heck, I even recall Thome doing it once. Pods does it a lot. To me it's one technique of several that a good hitter should be able to do on occasion. I played with plenty of guys who lived under the credo of "anything that gets you on base is good".

JB98
05-05-2007, 12:23 AM
If you mean their current lineup I'd say I agree with you. I have seen both Iguchi and Erstad do it on occasion. Heck, I even recall Thome doing it once. Pods does it a lot. To me it's one technique of several that a good hitter should be able to do on occasion. I played with plenty of guys who lived under the credo of "anything that gets you on base is good".

I'm speaking more of the current approach I'm seeing from guys.

oldcomiskey
05-05-2007, 09:52 AM
When Greg Walker gets the boot!

But also, it really pisses me off how they have a guy coaching at 1B who has almost 3000 hits in his career and it seems that no one is approaching him for advice or that maybe they aren't listening to him at all. Not to mention, when you have people like Ozzie Guillen as your manager, you know the same guy who won a GG and played SS better than almost everyone in the history of the game, if he can't get people like Mack and Ozuna to at least be average fielders, then you know the problem may be in the players and not so much the coaches.

:angry:

this is not--repeat not---Greg Walker's fault--by that excuse why didnt we fire Cooper last year. When we stop trying to hit home runs every damn at bat they will break out of it. If they stop..

oldcomiskey
05-05-2007, 09:53 AM
Apart from Pods, I wouldn't call any of the guys on the White Sox a 'slap hitter'. I may be using the term more technically than you.

the slap hitting would be better than swinging from the heels all the time. What did Ozzie call the home run. A rally killer. You better believe it.

oldcomiskey
05-05-2007, 09:54 AM
Ozzie has his dream offensive team - hack away hitters up and down the lineup.
My guess is we'll struggle to score runs all season due to a)too many poor hitters in the lineup; b)strange order of hitters; and c)moves like pinch-hitting with .050 hitters with no power. But this is what Ozzie wants - we'll see if swing at everything hitters with no power and low obp can score runs.
So far, the returns aren't good. What runs we score are scored via power, and the slap hitting isn't scoring a thing. Unfortunately, but not suprisingly, the power is generally with no one on (because no one is getting on).

the problem is nobody is hitting good. Who would you want Ozzie to bring in as a pinch hitter. And I didnt hear you complain about all this in 05.

IndianWhiteSox
05-05-2007, 10:22 AM
this is not--repeat not---Greg Walker's fault--by that excuse why didnt we fire Cooper last year. When we stop trying to hit home runs every damn at bat they will break out of it. If they stop..

That's the thing though, that is his teaching the hitters seem to be using on the field. You can't even compare him to coop, Coop you know can turn almost any rock into a diamond. You can't even say that about Walker, therefore he needs to get the axe and bring in someone like Lance Johnson or something.

Fenway
05-05-2007, 10:29 AM
If the White Sox bats don't wake up when the Yankees pitching staff arrives at USCF then there maybe no hope.

I fully expect lots of fireworks during those 3 games however :smile:

FarWestChicago
05-05-2007, 10:52 AM
the problem is nobody is hitting good. Who would you want Ozzie to bring in as a pinch hitter. And I didnt hear you complain about all this in 05.Tragg is a FOBB. He wants two walks and a three run homer every inning. :smile:

balke
05-05-2007, 12:36 PM
I complained about the solo hr's in 05', but we had a good enough top of the order to score us runs without HR's. Right now Pods is out and the team looks pathetic. Even in 05' we were squeaking by with the majority of our wins.

Without that spark plug at the top of the order, these HR's are going to all be primarily solo, and doubles will be non-run producing.