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IndianWhiteSox
05-01-2007, 06:42 AM
Yes, Ozzie may be full of himself and KW may not be getting the pieces to correlate with Ozzie, but before anyone else leaves, this man has to go:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg (http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg&imgrefurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/cfbc_coaches.htm&h=1011&w=792&sz=70&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGreg%2BWalker%2Bbaseball%2Bplayer%26s vnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

Greg Walker needs to be fired, the Sox are a good offense in spite of him. I mean of all the hitters in the history of this organization, they can bring Ventura, Baines, Johnson, Allen, etc. to take Walkers position.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 06:48 AM
What, no Hispanic favoritism?

:redneck

dcb56
05-01-2007, 07:10 AM
Yes, Ozzie may be full of himself and KW may not be getting the pieces to correlate with Ozzie, but before anyone else leaves, this man has to go:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg (http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg&imgrefurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/cfbc_coaches.htm&h=1011&w=792&sz=70&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGreg%2BWalker%2Bbaseball%2Bplayer%26s vnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

Greg Walker needs to be fired, the Sox are a good offense in spite of him. I mean of all the hitters in the history of this organization, they can bring Ventura, Baines, Johnson, Allen, etc. to take Walkers position.


So much for your prediction that the Sox were going to win 110 games...:rolleyes:

soxfanatlanta
05-01-2007, 07:24 AM
What, no Hispanic favoritism?

:redneck

Good one. :wink:

What's Terry Pendalton doing these days? He was pretty successful with the Braves during the 90's.

DumpJerry
05-01-2007, 07:58 AM
Heck, let's fire the entire coaching staff, even Coop. I say we throw in some front office types while there at it.

Alex Cintron is batting below .100, fire his lazy butt, too.

cbotnyse
05-01-2007, 08:30 AM
Heck, let's fire the entire coaching staff, even Coop. I say we throw in some front office types while there at it.

Alex Cintron is batting below .100, fire his lazy butt, too.Thats what I was thinking too. We are a tick above .500 through April, I dont want to fire anybody yet. Our pitching has been solid, and our hitting has nowhere to go but up. I don't mind the discussion though.

DumpJerry
05-01-2007, 08:34 AM
Now that I think about it, there's a beer vendor in my section who does not display the right attitude about the team.



Fire him.

Viva Medias B's
05-01-2007, 08:38 AM
Whenever a caller to Les' show made an inane statement, Grobber would play "They're Coming to Take Me Away Ha-Haaa!" I wonder if that would apply here. The lack of hitting is not Greg Walker's fault.

Chips
05-01-2007, 08:40 AM
Now that I think about it, there's a beer vendor in my section who does not display the right attitude about the team.



Fire him.

You need to move up top with Sun Trick. The man is an excellent beer vendor. Heather at the Beers of the World stand in the lower tank by 155 or so does a good job as well. Skotty's buddy, Bobby, is an excellent beer man as well.

mwc44
05-01-2007, 08:41 AM
Yes, Ozzie may be full of himself and KW may not be getting the pieces to correlate with Ozzie, but before anyone else leaves, this man has to go:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg (http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg&imgrefurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/cfbc_coaches.htm&h=1011&w=792&sz=70&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGreg%2BWalker%2Bbaseball%2Bplayer%26s vnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

Greg Walker needs to be fired, the Sox are a good offense in spite of him. I mean of all the hitters in the history of this organization, they can bring Ventura, Baines, Johnson, Allen, etc. to take Walkers position.

Look in the first base coaches box, my friend. Harold is already there, so if I was a bettin' man, I'd say if he could give some input into the "slump," he already has... to no avail.

Allen? As in Dick Allen? :kneeslap: You obviously don't know alot about Dick Allen.

Heck, let's fire the entire coaching staff, even Coop. I say we throw in some front office types while there at it.

Alex Cintron is batting below .100, fire his lazy butt, too.

:rolling: :thumbsup: :rolling:

SBSoxFan
05-01-2007, 08:43 AM
Heck, let's fire the entire coaching staff, even Coop. I say we throw in some front office types while there at it.

Alex Cintron is batting below .100, fire his lazy butt, too.

That's an interesting point. How come there were no "fire Coop" threads last year? Not far enough removed from the World Series victory yet?

I guess it's "what have you done for me lately." Didn't Walker get a bunch of credit for fixing Paulie's and Crede's swings?

Law11
05-01-2007, 09:07 AM
It aint Walkers fault Pods and Thome are out.
The lineup is as much built around them as anyone else.
When you lose yout leadoff and Number 3 hitters youre not going to
be consistent.

I just cant go through another year of hawk saying once this team gets it clicking look out.. I just remebember last year that never happening.

Once we get Pods and Jim back it'll take them some games to get them back in tune. So much of how the Sox go depends on the top of the lineup.

balke
05-01-2007, 09:11 AM
Fire Greg Walker is the only one argument I ever thought made sense. Some Mods on this board believe he should be gone. It seems like we have a lot of hitters that get in slumps, work with Walker and stay in slumps for a long long time.

I don't know anything about baseball so my opinion on that really doesn't matter. I wish these guys could hit though. We are 20 or under in every category but walks and HR's this season, and we aren't 1st in hr's I don't believe. Yet we have Dye, Konerko, Thome, Erstad, Iguchi, Crede, etc. who have shown they can hit in the past. Uribe had a great season of hitting and somehow never got back to that. AJ should be hitting .300. I don't get it. Its early though.

FedEx227
05-01-2007, 09:14 AM
I wouldn't go that far as to firing him, that's a bit much.

Personally, I'm just sick of our awful advanced scouting in that any team can bring up some career minor leaguer out of AA/AAA and absolutely shut us down. I understand we've never seen him and thus we "don't have tape on him", but..um... he pitched in the minors, I'm sure you can find SOME info out there, we always look absolutely lost against the Adam Berreno and John Rheineckers of the world.

ondafarm
05-01-2007, 09:23 AM
Yes, Ozzie may be full of himself and KW may not be getting the pieces to correlate with Ozzie, but before anyone else leaves, this man has to go:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg (http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg&imgrefurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/cfbc_coaches.htm&h=1011&w=792&sz=70&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGreg%2BWalker%2Bbaseball%2Bplayer%26s vnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

Greg Walker needs to be fired, the Sox are a good offense in spite of him. I mean of all the hitters in the history of this organization, they can bring Ventura, Baines, Johnson, Allen, etc. to take Walkers position.

Copy Cat!!!

thomas35forever
05-01-2007, 09:26 AM
I wouldn't say fire him right now. Remember, Paulie slumped in '05 until mid-May. Then, he got hot enough to make the All-Star team. Give the players time. If the bats don't wake up in a month, maybe two, then I'll give it some consideration.

Didn't he help Crede change his stance?

WhiteSox5187
05-01-2007, 10:14 AM
We're a month into the season. Watch, by the end of May Walker will be the best hitting coach in the history of the game and we might all be calling for Don Cooper's head. This team can hit, and it will...relax.

oeo
05-01-2007, 10:46 AM
We're a month into the season. Watch, by the end of May Walker will be the best hitting coach in the history of the game and we might all be calling for Don Cooper's head. This team can hit, and it will...relax.

No, Don Cooper has earned respect over the past few years. Greg Walker hasn't done jack ****.

Walker29
05-01-2007, 11:01 AM
Let me go on the record by saying I'm personally against the firing of Greg Walker.

BainesHOF
05-01-2007, 11:07 AM
Half of the players in the game today don't even listen to their hitting coaches. Does anyone believe Walker is telling players not to advance runners from second base with no outs? A lack of Ozzieball falls on Ozzie and a lack of hitting falls on the hitters.

stacksedwards
05-01-2007, 11:15 AM
Did I miss something? Two of our top two hitters are not even hitting thier weight. We had some rough pitching to start the year. We played some good teams. We played more on the road than home. We are over .500. If you play over .500 every month you make the playoffs.

IndianWhiteSox
05-01-2007, 11:52 AM
OK I was just trying to prove a point with this thread and it worked. The fact of the matter is that if anyone deserves to be fired its Walker, before everyone else is canned. Even though I think he is the weak link in the coaching staff, maybe he should last the year. But if there is no change he should be fired. Look at Coop, he can change most below average prospects into lights out pitchers while Walker can't even get most of our young hitters or slumping hitters(not the studs but you get my point), to hit above their weight. He just seems not to have it in him to be a great hitting coach. If someone like a Walt Hriniak is brought in, then that would be a great improvement over Walker.

As for everyone else, they're really not the problem.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 11:58 AM
OK I was just trying to prove a point with this thread and it worked. The fact of the matter is that if anyone deserves to be fired its Walker, before everyone else is canned. Even though I think he is the weak link in the coaching staff, maybe he should last the year. But if there is no change he should be fired. Look at Coop, he can change most below average prospects into lights out pitchers while Walker can't even get most of our young hitters or slumping hitters(not the studs but you get my point), to hit above their weight. He just seems not to have it in him to be a great hitting coach. If someone like a Walt Hriniak is brought in, then that would be a great improvement over Walker.

As for everyone else, they're really not the problem.

Totally baseless statements.

CLR01
05-01-2007, 12:00 PM
Do not question the job Walker has done unless you have worked as a hitting coach at the major league level. Greg Walker is smarter than you and he is never wrong, in fact, everything he touches turns to gold. This will be the year he helps return the Sox to glory and if not this year then definitely next year.

It's Dankerific
05-01-2007, 12:06 PM
I'm pretty sure 90 wins was over .500 last year. Did I miss the playoffs we were in?

Did I miss something? Two of our top two hitters are not even hitting thier weight. We had some rough pitching to start the year. We played some good teams. We played more on the road than home. We are over .500. If you play over .500 every month you make the playoffs.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 12:09 PM
I'm pretty sure 90 wins was over .500 last year. Did I miss the playoffs we were in?


The Sox had losing record in July and September.

IndianWhiteSox
05-01-2007, 12:12 PM
Totally baseless statements.

Yes, because Matt Thornton, David Aardsma, Javy Vazquez, and Jose Contreras were great pitchers before they came here.

:rolleyes:

Do not question the job Walker has done unless you have worked as a hitting coach at the major league level. Greg Walker is smarter than you and he is never wrong, in fact, everything he touches turns to gold. This will be the year he helps return the Sox to glory and if not this year then definitely next year.

No, instead we all should just worship CLR01 as the great almighty.
:tongue:

TDog
05-01-2007, 12:13 PM
Look in the first base coaches box, my friend. Harold is already there, so if I was a bettin' man, I'd say if he could give some input into the "slump," he already has... to no avail.

Allen? As in Dick Allen? :kneeslap: You obviously don't know alot about Dick Allen.


On a board where after losses postgame threads direct toward players and coaches the sort of venom appropriate for the killer of a beloved family pet, I always appreciate your perspective.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 12:17 PM
Yes, because Matt Thornton, David Aardsma, Javy Vazquez, and Jose Contreras were great pitchers before they came here.

:rolleyes:


How did Cooper do on fixing Floyd's delivery problems? Or what happened to Cotts and Politte in 2006? For every success story, there is a failure. I'll take my chances with Cooper but let's not delude ourselves into thinking Cooper can take nothing and turn it into something. Only Jesus Erstad can do that.

The same applies to Walker. Just because guys are struggling right now doesn't automatically mean Walker is clowning it to the point he should be canned. The bats will come around and these types of threads will disappear.

IndianWhiteSox
05-01-2007, 12:24 PM
How did Cooper do on fixing Floyd's delivery problems? Or what happened to Cotts and Politte in 2006? For every success story, there is a failure. I'll take my chances with Cooper but let's not delude ourselves into thinking Cooper can take nothing and turn it into something. Only Jesus Erstad can do that.

The same applies to Walker. Just because guys are struggling right now doesn't automatically mean Walker is clowning it to the point he should be canned. The bats will come around and these types of threads will disappear.

Coop is a pitching coach not a PSYCHIATRIST! So, no the same doesn't really apply to Walker as of now because as a matter of fact outside Crede, which hitter has he really worked with that improved over a span of a few years.

Before some articulate poster tells me about Dye, AJ, Paulie, Thome, or past ones like Maggs and Lee, just remember the those hitters were established BEFORE Walker came in as a hitting coach.

stacksedwards
05-01-2007, 12:25 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/pressbox/photos/headshots_players_coaches/117374_90x135.jpg
I hope I'm ok according to the baseball masterminds at WSI

FedEx227
05-01-2007, 12:26 PM
Coop is a pitching coach not a PSYCHIATRIST! So, no the same doesn't really apply to Walker as of now because as a matter of fact outside Crede, which hitter has he really worked with that improved over a span of a few years.

Before some articulate poster tells me about Dye, AJ, Paulie, Thome, or past ones like Maggs and Lee, just remember the those hitters were established BEFORE Walker came in as a hitting coach.

Yeah most problems with Floyd, Cotts, Pollitte have come from mental problems. As far as technical problems Coop is one of the best in the business. He turned Contreras career around by merely fixing a pre-pitch ritual, he also did wonders on both Thornton and Sisco's release points which were leading to much of their control problems.

stacksedwards
05-01-2007, 12:27 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/photo/exe_mugs/jerry_reinsdorf.jpg
I might just fire myself after reading these genius posts. We have no idea what we are doing. We should just quit

IndianWhiteSox
05-01-2007, 12:32 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/photo/exe_mugs/jerry_reinsdorf.jpg
I might just fire myself after reading these genius posts. We have no idea what we are doing. We should just quit

Quote reaction:
:kneeslap::kneeslap:

Generally speaking:

Did I say Fire Ozzie? Did I say Fire KW? Did I say fire Coop or anyone else not named Greg Walker? The answer is NO genius.

Now before you say, " That wasn't what I was talking about sorry 0 for 4."

Just remember that I was merely throwing in my two cents into the pot, Oh great one.

southside rocks
05-01-2007, 12:41 PM
On a board where after losses postgame threads direct toward players and coaches the sort of venom appropriate for the killer of a beloved family pet, I always appreciate your perspective.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/photo/exe_mugs/jerry_reinsdorf.jpg
I might just fire myself after reading these genius posts. We have no idea what we are doing. We should just quit

Good gosh, this thread has some hilarious posts in it! :rolling:

Good thing, or the place would be sounding a lot like some other, far less intelligent, Sox fan boards about now ...

...
05-01-2007, 12:48 PM
Heck, let's fire the entire coaching staff, even Coop. I say we throw in some front office types while there at it.

Alex Cintron is batting below .100, fire his lazy butt, too.

Why can't we try to be rational here. Firing the manager is a bit on the extreme side. It's obvious that if someone had to go, Walker should be that guy. This team is just not hitting. Greg Walker is the hitting coach. How much longer can KW go before some changes have to be made?

CLR01
05-01-2007, 12:55 PM
No, instead we all should just worship CLR01 as the great almighty.
:tongue:

Well unless you have ever been CLR01 you are not qualified to have any other opinion. :dunno:

Chicken Dinner
05-01-2007, 01:04 PM
It all started once Joey Cora became bench coach. I think we should hang him.

wassagstdu
05-01-2007, 01:14 PM
At the risk of trying to get some actual information rather than venom here, I would ask some of you who know a lot more about hitting than I do whether there is something wrong with the Sox' basic hitting philosophy. It seems peculiar to me that so many mediocre pitchers can totally shut down the Sox lineup on a given day. To me that implies that they all have holes in their hitting and any pitcher who can hit those holes can shut down the entire lineup. Is that more true of the Sox than others? I believe there are some hitters who are not Ted Williams but who perform more consistently than others. I think Ozzie was that kind of hitter. Not one they would pitch around, for sure, but one who could scratch out a hit even when the pitcher was "on." Do the Sox shun that kind of hitter for those who can kill the ball as long as the pitcher misses their dead spots? Or does Greg Walker work so hard to refine the hitters' swings that they become too brittle?

Obviously you want to mix both kinds of hitters in a lineup (assuming they really do exist as such), so do the Sox fall short in going too far in one direction? Seems like there must be a connection between this "all or nothing" performance year in and year out (except 2005) and the Sox consistent leadership in number of home runs. Looks like a long-standing problem ("problem" because it has not produced championships) that must have a deep cause within the organization.

Could it be that Tadahito Iguchi shows the problem in a nutshell? He can be both kinds of hitter. He was one in 2005 and was the other kind in 2006 and 2007. Clearly the organization would rather he be less like 2005 and more like 2006. Are they right?

soxfanatlanta
05-01-2007, 01:14 PM
Well unless you have ever been CLR01 you are not qualified to have any other opinion. :dunno:

When you start talking about yourself in third person...

http://www.nndb.com/people/957/000022891/robert-dole.jpg

:tongue:

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 01:19 PM
Coop is a pitching coach not a PSYCHIATRIST! So, no the same doesn't really apply to Walker as of now because as a matter of fact outside Crede, which hitter has he really worked with that improved over a span of a few years.

Before some articulate poster tells me about Dye, AJ, Paulie, Thome, or past ones like Maggs and Lee, just remember the those hitters were established BEFORE Walker came in as a hitting coach.

Juan's swing looks a lot better this year. Except when he has a mental lapse and swings 2006 style. Is that Walker's fault? He's not a psychiatrist either.

I'm not saying Walker is some type of awesome hitting coach but a month of poor hitting against tough opponents in crappy weather is a reason to fire him? What exactly has he done to warrant this? Are all the bopper's swings "broken" and he is too lazy to fix them?

Fire Nancy Faust.

WhiteSox5187
05-01-2007, 01:22 PM
Coop is a pitching coach not a PSYCHIATRIST! So, no the same doesn't really apply to Walker as of now because as a matter of fact outside Crede, which hitter has he really worked with that improved over a span of a few years.

Before some articulate poster tells me about Dye, AJ, Paulie, Thome, or past ones like Maggs and Lee, just remember the those hitters were established BEFORE Walker came in as a hitting coach.
Mind you though, the year before Walker became coach Paulie hit a whopping .237, Walker got him to shorten his swing. And how about a guy like Joe Crede? Look at how much he has turned around offensively. Aaron Rowand is another guy who improved mightily when Walker came in. Yes, AJ, Thome and Dye were established before they came in, but so what? So far Walker has really only worked with one "true" rookie and that was Anderson who apparently didn't really listen to him or seek his advice. This year in spring training Anderson started listening to Walker, now had Anderson done that last year he might not have been in Ozzie's doghouse the whole friggin' year. Walker has turned guys around. The thing is, he hasn't really needed to turn a whole lot of guys around because as you mentioned they were already established. This team can and WILL hit. Just give it time. You don't win pennants in the first month of the season especially when two thirds of the top part of your order are out hurt.

CLR01
05-01-2007, 01:23 PM
I'm not saying Walker is some type of awesome hitting coach

You better be. I think we both know that the PE title doesn't make you qualified to question his job skill.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 01:32 PM
You better be. I think we both know that the PE title doesn't make you qualified to question his job skill.

The only thing I can address is the madness of calling for various members of the team to be fired after going 12-11 in April. I guess 17-7 over the last two Aprils have left some with a warped sense of reality.

stacksedwards
05-01-2007, 01:56 PM
Quote reaction:
:kneeslap::kneeslap:

Generally speaking:

Did I say Fire Ozzie? Did I say Fire KW? Did I say fire Coop or anyone else not named Greg Walker? The answer is NO genius.

Now before you say, " That wasn't what I was talking about sorry 0 for 4."

Just remember that I was merely throwing in my two cents into the pot, Oh great one.


I don't recall quoting you in the previous post. So let the record state, you are 0 for 4. Maybe we should fire you. At least Walker gets 1 for 4 out of his guys.

CLR01
05-01-2007, 02:00 PM
Mind you though, the year before Walker became coach Paulie hit a whopping .237.

And .304 the year before that, .282 before that, .298 before that, .294 before that.......


So far Walker has really only worked with one "true" rookie and that was Anderson who apparently didn't really listen to him or seek his advice. This year in spring training Anderson started listening to Walker, now had Anderson done that last year he might not have been in Ozzie's doghouse the whole friggin' year. Yeah except Walker's own words contradict that. He knew of Anderson's mechanical flaws as early as spring training '06 but chose to let his athletic ability try to overcome them. It wasn't until midway through the season when he finally started changing things.

TDog
05-01-2007, 02:01 PM
Why can't we try to be rational here. Firing the manager is a bit on the extreme side. It's obvious that if someone had to go, Walker should be that guy. This team is just not hitting. Greg Walker is the hitting coach. How much longer can KW go before some changes have to be made?


I don't believe it's at all obvious that someone has to go. Not even close.

But Brian Anderson is gone, and if he doesn't pull his head out of his butt, he won't be coming back. That won't heal Thome or Podsednik or make Konerko or Dye hit better, but it's a start.

Luke
05-01-2007, 02:03 PM
At the risk of trying to get some actual information rather than venom here, I would ask some of you who know a lot more about hitting than I do whether there is something wrong with the Sox' basic hitting philosophy. It seems peculiar to me that so many mediocre pitchers can totally shut down the Sox lineup on a given day. To me that implies that they all have holes in their hitting and any pitcher who can hit those holes can shut down the entire lineup. Is that more true of the Sox than others? I believe there are some hitters who are not Ted Williams but who perform more consistently than others. I think Ozzie was that kind of hitter. Not one they would pitch around, for sure, but one who could scratch out a hit even when the pitcher was "on." Do the Sox shun that kind of hitter for those who can kill the ball as long as the pitcher misses their dead spots? Or does Greg Walker work so hard to refine the hitters' swings that they become too brittle?

Obviously you want to mix both kinds of hitters in a lineup (assuming they really do exist as such), so do the Sox fall short in going too far in one direction? Seems like there must be a connection between this "all or nothing" performance year in and year out (except 2005) and the Sox consistent leadership in number of home runs. Looks like a long-standing problem ("problem" because it has not produced championships) that must have a deep cause within the organization.

Could it be that Tadahito Iguchi shows the problem in a nutshell? He can be both kinds of hitter. He was one in 2005 and was the other kind in 2006 and 2007. Clearly the organization would rather he be less like 2005 and more like 2006. Are they right?

Hitting is a very personal an individual thing, and everyone has slightly different strengths and flaws in their swings. Everyone develops a hole in their swing from time to time. And that seems to be going on wide scale right now.

As for the philosophy, almost every organization has the same one; don't get out. If you do get out, try to make it productive. Reach base, and that's all most hitters think about. Generally guys won't say "I'm going to try to hit a homer here" but there are some exceptions.

Right now the bats are cold, sometimes it just happens. I think a 12-11 April is not cause for panick.

mccoydp
05-01-2007, 02:13 PM
I just fired myself...and my wife.:redneck

WhiteSox5187
05-01-2007, 02:59 PM
And .304 the year before that, .282 before that, .298 before that, .294 before that.......


Yeah except Walker's own words contradict that. He knew of Anderson's mechanical flaws as early as spring training '06 but chose to let his athletic ability try to overcome them. It wasn't until midway through the season when he finally started changing things.
Walker didn't pull Anderson aside and say "Listen kid..." but truth be told, Anderson probably, not probably, definately should have gone up to Walker and say "What am I doing wrong?" It's not like the guy is a proven veteran, he needs to ask questions and take advice.

As far as Konerko, yes, I admit '03 was a fluke. But Walker did get him to shorten up his swing a bit and I think that has made Konerko a much much better hitter now than he was in '02 or '01.

UserNameBlank
05-01-2007, 03:27 PM
Fire Ozzie and replace him with Razor.

Fire Walker and replace him with Baines.

Bring back Rock as the 1B coach.

Hire Fisk as the 3B coach.

Build a giant staute of Don Cooper outside of the Cell and place prayer rugs underneath it so he may be worshipped. Furthermore, place the face of the Almighty Don Cooper on all White Sox paper products.

PaulDrake
05-01-2007, 03:42 PM
Whenever a caller to Les' show made an inane statement, Grobber would play "They're Coming to Take Me Away Ha-Haaa!" I wonder if that would apply here. The lack of hitting is not Greg Walker's fault. I don't know, the Sox hitters often leave me baffled and frustrated. Use the whole field, don't try to hit a five run homer everytime. I just often don't see a patient, intelligent approach. Why do certain types of pitchers, often mediocore or worse, make the Sox look so bad? Why do others, often good, (Sabathia and Santana) mow the Sox down like ten pins? It's like they give up and mail it in for some guys, and swing stupidly from the heels for other guys. That is not a formula for a return to the playoffs, let alone doing something once you make it. I'm sorry, I think Greg Walker should show some accountability.

ondafarm
05-01-2007, 03:45 PM
I don't know, the Sox hitters often leave me baffled and frustrated. Use the whole field, don't try to hit a five run homer everytime. I just often don't see a patient, intelligent approach. Why do certain types of pitchers, often mediocore or worse, make the Sox look so bad? Why do others, often good, (Sabathia and Santana) mow the Sox down like ten pins? It's like they give up and mail it in for some guys, and swing stupidly from the heels for other guys. That is not a formula for a return to the playoffs, let alone doing something once you make it. I'm sorry, I think Greg Walker should show some accountability.

I think the Sox are still suffering from not having Frank Thomas. Whatever else Frank did, he made the opposing pitcher throw a lot of pitches. That wore the opposition down for everyone else. The best guy on the roster now at doing this is Thome and he's on the DL.

balke
05-01-2007, 03:47 PM
Where's Daver in this thread? I thought he was the biggest down with Walker guy at WSI. And thats going back to like 04'.

soxfan13
05-01-2007, 03:54 PM
Yes, because Matt Thornton, David Aardsma, Javy Vazquez, and Jose Contreras were great pitchers before they came here.

:rolleyes:



No, instead we all should just worship CLR01 as the great almighty.
:tongue:

Actually all 4 named werent below average prospects. They were highly regarded prospects or already professionals with great stuff that needed little tinkering. THe jury is still out on all 4 of them. Thorton one good year, struggling so far this year. Aardsma one good year so far again jury is out. Javy still hasnt really done much he hasnt done other places without Coop. Contreras except for about the second half of 05 to the break last year has been a pretty average pitcher. So what has the magic man really done. Maybe he is good at getting one very good year out of a pitcher then back to mediocrity.

southsideirish71
05-01-2007, 03:59 PM
Watch how medicore to crap pitchers attack us. They pretty much attack low and away to all of our righties. This is why the > 7 ERA club shuts this team down. Walk likes our hitters to get around on the ball, get lift and hit home runs. Its leaves a long and looping swing. This is why we have seen over his tenure, crappy pitchers 3 hitting us through 5. We brought Hrniak in 05 to work with Uribe. He starts to hit at the end of the year. What does Walk do the follow ST, he decides the leg kick timing mechanism that Hrniak worked with would be the same as the Pablo Ozuna spread, so he changes Uribe and he hits like crap again.

The minute Anderson was named last year starting CF, he should of worked with that kid on his swing. Not wait until the kid was beyond LTP hitting. He was just quoted as how he thinks Brians swing looks good. The swing we have seen looks good????? To whom the opposing pitcher.

ondafarm
05-01-2007, 04:04 PM
Not a great defender of Walker here, but I will say that you can only really work with people who believe they need the help. Now, I would have worked BA differently. I guess I would have forced him to learn to bunt and while doing that made a few comments about his swing and hope he'd taken the bait, but unless they guy on some level says "What should I do?" you can't help him.

When I've been asked to work with guys I always got a hint from the manager or pitching coach but it was always the guy himself needing to ask me to show him something.

Maybe Walker works differently.

balke
05-01-2007, 04:11 PM
I think the Sox are still suffering from not having Frank Thomas. Whatever else Frank did, he made the opposing pitcher throw a lot of pitches. That wore the opposition down for everyone else. The best guy on the roster now at doing this is Thome and he's on the DL.

I don't buy that. They were hitting worse with Thome, and all he really was doing was walking. This team still takes a decent amount of pitches. 3.82 p/pa. Sox aren't going to be winning even with Thome if they can't figure out how to hit. They need to string together some doubles, and cap off a run with a HR. Not just tie or take the lead with a hr, then fail to score the rest of the game. Its easy to walk Thome all season if teams want to beat the White Sox.

balke
05-01-2007, 04:17 PM
Actually all 4 named werent below average prospects. They were highly regarded prospects or already professionals with great stuff that needed little tinkering. THe jury is still out on all 4 of them. Thorton one good year, struggling so far this year. Aardsma one good year so far again jury is out. Javy still hasnt really done much he hasnt done other places without Coop. Contreras except for about the second half of 05 to the break last year has been a pretty average pitcher. So what has the magic man really done. Maybe he is good at getting one very good year out of a pitcher then back to mediocrity.


He's put out the best staff in the MLB for about 3 seasons now, and turned Contreres and Garcia into winners. Garland is infinitely better than when he started with the Sox, Coop got him sharp. Buehrle is a 6 inning horse who works quick to get outs for a reason. I don't think these pitchers would've progressed properly anywhere else. Look at Politte and how great he was in 05'. Look at Mccarthy now that he's left the Southside. He was never that embarassing here.


I think a lot of the pitching staff #'s are in part AJ as well. Even if he works with Coop's gameplan, he does it brilliantly. Whoever catches Buehrle runs the show, and Buehrle just got a no-no.

JermaineDye05
05-01-2007, 04:29 PM
Jeez this is getting ridiculous, 1 month into the season and people are asking for the heads of the coaching staff.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 04:35 PM
He's put out the best staff in the MLB for about 3 seasons now, and turned Contreres and Garcia into winners. Garland is infinitely better than when he started with the Sox, Coop got him sharp. Buehrle is a 6 inning horse who works quick to get outs for a reason. I don't think these pitchers would've progressed properly anywhere else. Look at Politte and how great he was in 05'. Look at Mccarthy now that he's left the Southside. He was never that embarassing here.


I think a lot of the pitching staff #'s are in part AJ as well. Even if he works with Coop's gameplan, he does it brilliantly. Whoever catches Buehrle runs the show, and Buehrle just got a no-no.

:?:

Cooper didn't turn Garcia into a winner, he already had three 16+ game winning seasons before joining the Sox.

What reason do you have to believe pitchers like Buehrle and Garland wouldn't have succeeded elsewhere? Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Cooper fan but let's not go overboard here...

SABRSox
05-01-2007, 04:36 PM
What in the...? This place been taking goofy pills lately or what?

southside rocks
05-01-2007, 04:38 PM
On the Tigers:
Craig Monroe is batting .193
Brandon Inge is batting .150
Sean Casey is batting .192
Marcus Thames is batting .182


On the Red Sox:
Manny Ramirez is batting .202
Wily Mo Pena is batting .172

On the Cardinals:
David Eckstein is batting .226
Jim Edmonds is batting .222
Preston Wilson is batting .203

Clearly, those pitching coaches also need to be fired, and those players should be traded or sent to the minors -- or maybe just given their outright releases. Enough is enough! One month in and established major-league players are batting poorly?!?! This has never happened before in the history of the game and somebody will have to pay!

:rolleyes:

CLR01
05-01-2007, 04:42 PM
Walker didn't pull Anderson aside and say "Listen kid..." but truth be told, Anderson probably, not probably, definately should have gone up to Walker and say "What am I doing wrong?" It's not like the guy is a proven veteran, he needs to ask questions and take advice.


Can you find me one quote saying he didn't ask those questions? I can find a whole article that says Walker didn't want to touch his swing last year because he wanted to break it all down and he didn't want to do that during the season. He instead let BA rely on his athletic abilities to try and hit major league pitching. He finally made some changes midway through the season right around the time he started hitting (I wonder if that's just a coincidence).

PaulDrake
05-01-2007, 04:48 PM
Jeez this is getting ridiculous, 1 month into the season and people are asking for the heads of the coaching staff. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not asking for anyone's head. Just do your job, improvise, make the necessary adjustments. Both Ozzie and Walker have some work to do along those lines, but I'm not calling for them to be fired.

chitownhawkfan
05-01-2007, 04:53 PM
was named to his position on 5/19/03, replacing Gary Ward ... in 605 games under his direction, the White Sox have batted .270 with 851 home runs and 3,092 runs scored (5.1 per game) ... the White Sox led the major leagues with 236 home runs in 2006, six short of the franchise record set in 2004 (242) ...the Sox have hit 200-plus home runs in seven consecutive seasons, extending the major-league record they share with the Yankees (also current) ... the Sox featured a franchise-record four players with 30 or more homers in 2006, joining the 2000 Angels and Blue Jays as the only teams in AL history to accomplish that feat ... Sox also had two players with at least 40 home runs for the first time in club history ... Chicago ranked third in baseball in 2006 with 868 runs, 127 more than 2005 and the fourth-highest total in franchise history behind the 2000 (978), 1936 (920) and 1996 (898) clubs ... in 2005, Paul Konerko joined Frank Thomas (1995-96) as the only players in Sox history to record back-to-back 40-home run seasons ... the 242 homers hit in 2004 tied the Yankees for the major-league lead and ranked as the ninth-highest total in baseball history ... Chicago featured a franchise-record six players with 20 or more home runs in 2004 and ranked third in the AL with 865 runs scored, 10 more than National League leader St. Louis ... in 2003, the Sox led the AL after the break in average (.288), slugging percentage (.496) and runs scored (398) and ranked second in home runs (113) and doubles (137) ...

YEP, should definitely be fired.

...
05-01-2007, 05:29 PM
I don't believe it's at all obvious that someone has to go. Not even close.

But Brian Anderson is gone, and if he doesn't pull his head out of his butt, he won't be coming back. That won't heal Thome or Podsednik or make Konerko or Dye hit better, but it's a start.


My quote may have been misleading. What I'm saying it that if someone from the coaching staff is going to be fired, Walker would be the obvious choice as of now. I don't believe that anyone needs to be fired, not yet at least. This season is young and we all know these bats can come alive just as drastically as they have gone cold...

crazyozzie02
05-01-2007, 05:40 PM
Yes, Ozzie may be full of himself and KW may not be getting the pieces to correlate with Ozzie, but before anyone else leaves, this man has to go:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg (http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg&imgrefurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/cfbc_coaches.htm&h=1011&w=792&sz=70&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGreg%2BWalker%2Bbaseball%2Bplayer%26s vnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

Greg Walker needs to be fired, the Sox are a good offense in spite of him. I mean of all the hitters in the history of this organization, they can bring Ventura, Baines, Johnson, Allen, etc. to take Walkers position.

:dumbass:

UserNameBlank
05-01-2007, 05:49 PM
Maybe we could work out some sort of half-season trade with the Rangers where Coop goes to Arlington for a few months and teaches their pitchers how to pitch while Rudy Jaramillo comes here for a few months and teaches our hitters how to hit.

Actually, with all the roids in baseball maybe it will slowly devole into pro wrestling. That way the next time we play the Rangers in Arlington, Jaramillo could come out, hit Vicente Padilla with a chair, flick off the crowd, walk over to the Sox dugout, put on the back and white, and slam a beer to the tune our Journey enterance theme.

I can dream can't I?

TDog
05-01-2007, 05:53 PM
My quote may have been misleading. What I'm saying it that if someone from the coaching staff is going to be fired, Walker would be the obvious choice as of now. I don't believe that anyone needs to be fired, not yet at least. This season is young and we all know these bats can come alive just as drastically as they have gone cold...

I wasn't misled by your quote and was not rejecting your point that no one needs to be fired at this time. I don't believe that Walker should be the person to go if anyone goes, however. I also don't believe there is anything close to a need to replace any coaches. (Especially not the bullpen coach!)

The fact that the Sox have so many come-from-behind wins on the road is a testament to the hitters' ability to adjust. Some teams measure come-from-behind wins as wins where the team was trailing 1-0 early. The White Sox have come back from deficits of at least 3 runs in, I think, 4 road wins. But for the extra-inning loss in Detroit, there would have been another such game.

Walker came up through the organization. He isn't some Gerald Perry or Gary Ward who came rolling into Chicago because the team needed a new hitting coach. He has had some success. And he's not a Charlie Lau. He doesn't teach a single style of hitting. I'm pretty sure he is more highly thought of within the White Sox organization than he is at WSI and don't expect him to be going anywhere.

JB98
05-01-2007, 06:34 PM
I think I should be fired. I swore at Buerhle after he gave up the back-to-backs on Sunday. We've been losing because I've done a poor job of cheering.

balke
05-01-2007, 07:14 PM
:?:

Cooper didn't turn Garcia into a winner, he already had three 16+ game winning seasons before joining the Sox.

What reason do you have to believe pitchers like Buehrle and Garland wouldn't have succeeded elsewhere? Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Cooper fan but let's not go overboard here...


Garcia was on a downslope before he came to the Sox, and regained his poise from previous seasons. He won more games in a season than ever playing for the White Sox.

Garland would've been successful elsewhere, but Coop put in a lot of work with him. He struggled hard when he came up with the Sox, and there was always talk of trading him to another team. He was about 1-2 tough losses from Cy Young in 05'.

Buehrle is most successful when he gets it and fires it, not a lot of pitching coaches would enforce that or drill that into his head as much as Coop has IMO.

Contreres was an absolute wreck when he came here. He went on a 17 game winning streak with the Sox. He's now our ace.

There's no real 100% way of proving how good he is or what these pitchers do elsewhere. I'll say this though, there's no evidence I see that there's anything wrong with what Coop does with the pitchers. Few to no injuries. 2005 bullpen. No-No. 11 shutouts last season. 4 complete games in the ALCS.

Noone can boast what Coop can as far as his pitching staff goes.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 07:26 PM
Garcia was on a downslope before he came to the Sox, and regained his poise from previous seasons. He won more games in a season than ever playing for the White Sox.

You are aware that Garcia won 18 games and had a 3.05 ERA in 2001, aren't you?

His last year in Seattle he still had an ERA of 3.20 and his lowest WHIP since 2002.

Again, I think Coop is great but it isn't like he was handed a pilr of garbage to work with.

balke
05-01-2007, 08:08 PM
You are aware that Garcia won 18 games and had a 3.05 ERA in 2001, aren't you?

His last year in Seattle he still had an ERA of 3.20 and his lowest WHIP since 2002.

Again, I think Coop is great but it isn't like he was handed a pilr of garbage to work with.

3.20 over half a season. 3-7 coming off a 12-14 full season.


Since when isn't Cliff Politte garbage? What was Conteras when we got him other than potential? (and the laughing stock of NY)

Dustin Hermanson, Aardsma, Bobby Jenks, practically everything this guy touches turns to gold. Its probably Sisco Danks and Vazquez next. I'm sorry if you don't see it. What potential has he gotten that's been wasted?

And yes these pitchers all have talent, that doesn't always add up to success. He's taken a lot of talent and made it successful. He's helped them regain form. He's a big reason we have Contreras in the first place. He's a big reason we have Vazquez here who is having a great season so far. This isn't the easiest place to pitch either. I don't see anything wrong with the guys track record. These pitchers pitch to their potential and stay healthy, what else can you ask for?

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 08:35 PM
3.20 over half a season. 3-7 coming off a 12-14 full season.

Yep, 4-7 on a Seattle team that lost 99 games that season. Check out the games he lost that season. In three of the loses, the Mariners scored ZERO runs and the other outings weren't much better


Since when isn't Cliff Politte garbage? What was Conteras when we got him other than potential? (and the laughing stock of NY)

Dustin Hermanson, Aardsma, Bobby Jenks, practically everything this guy touches turns to gold. Its probably Sisco Danks and Vazquez next. I'm sorry if you don't see it. What potential has he gotten that's been wasted?

And yes these pitchers all have talent, that doesn't always add up to success. He's taken a lot of talent and made it successful. He's helped them regain form. He's a big reason we have Contreras in the first place. He's a big reason we have Vazquez here who is having a great season so far. This isn't the easiest place to pitch either. I don't see anything wrong with the guys track record. These pitchers pitch to their potential and stay healthy, what else can you ask for?

My point from the get-go was that Garcia didn't need a lot of work. Contreras (and Vazquez) had issues dealing with the pressures of New York and also the issue of his family being stuck in Cuba. Throw him on another team with a fellow Cuban (El Duque) and you have the seeds for success.

Don't get me wrong, I can't think of another pitching coach I'd rather see on the Sox than Cooper but some seem to think this guy can do anything. There are many circumstances that have played out in his favor but he is human like everyone else. When the entire Sox pitching staff was in the crapper after the All-Star break in 2006, where was his "magic" then? I'm sure if I dug through the archives, I could find plenty of threads calling for Cooper's head just like the goofballs calling for Walker's head now.

UserNameBlank
05-01-2007, 08:40 PM
3.20 over half a season. 3-7 coming off a 12-14 full season.


Since when isn't Cliff Politte garbage? What was Conteras when we got him other than potential? (and the laughing stock of NY)

Dustin Hermanson, Aardsma, Bobby Jenks, practically everything this guy touches turns to gold. Its probably Sisco Danks and Vazquez next. I'm sorry if you don't see it. What potential has he gotten that's been wasted?

And yes these pitchers all have talent, that doesn't always add up to success. He's taken a lot of talent and made it successful. He's helped them regain form. He's a big reason we have Contreras in the first place. He's a big reason we have Vazquez here who is having a great season so far. This isn't the easiest place to pitch either. I don't see anything wrong with the guys track record. These pitchers pitch to their potential and stay healthy, what else can you ask for?
Javy got a lot of heat around here last year, and still does to this day, because of his inability to get through a lineup for the third time.

But - look at this:

1998 with Montreal: 172.1 IP, 31 HR, .180 HR/IP
1999 with Montreal: 154.2 IP, 20 HR, .13 HR/IP
2000 with Montreal: 217.2, 24 HR, .11 HR/IP
2001 with Montreal: 223.2 IP, 24 HR, .11 HR/IP
2002 with Montreal: 230.1 IP, 28 HR, .12 HR/IP
2003 with Montreal: 230.2 IP, 28 HR, .12 HR/IP
2004 with the Yankees: 198 IP, 33 HR, .17 HR/IP
2005 with Arizona: 215.2 IP, 35 HR, .16 HR/IP
2006 with the Sox: 202.2 IP, 23 HR, .11 HR/IP

Now, I don't know if HR/IP is a real stat because I'm not a stathead, but if it isn't it should be because it is pretty telling about Javy's improvements. In the Cell - the freaking Cell of all places - he has posted his best home run rate of his career, a rate which he only equaled twice in his career and it came pitching in the National League and in Montreal of all places.

Plus it seemed like many of the home runs he gave up last year were 2 or 3 run shots or the rare grand slam, which seems to me that it was pitch selection more than anything and confidence in the wrong pitches as well, since it seemed like most of those big home runs came off of hanging curves and sliders.

Javy, since the second half of last year, has been using his fastball and change more than anything. I don't know how much credit Coop deserves, although a change in delivery seems to have really helped him, but if that continues and Javy stops relying on his breaking stuff to get him out of jams so much, Javy could really have a breakout under Coop.

FedEx227
05-01-2007, 08:47 PM
My point from the get-go was that Garcia didn't need a lot of work. Contreras (and Vazquez) had issues dealing with the pressures of New York and also the issue of his family being stuck in Cuba. Throw him on another team with a fellow Cuban (El Duque) and you have the seeds for success.


But do discount the fact that he was tipping his forkball every time he threw it. That had more to do with his lack of success in New York then not having his family in America and being with another Cuban.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 08:50 PM
But do discount the fact that he was tipping his forkball every time he threw it. That had more to do with his lack of success in New York then not having his family in America.

There were many factors in play. Didn't the Yankees want him to only throw at a certain arm angle, despite his success at other angels? The point is, Contreras certainly had the talent and just needed some tweaking. Could pitching coaches other than Cooper have done this tweaking? Beats me.

balke
05-01-2007, 08:52 PM
My point from the get-go was that Garcia didn't need a lot of work. Contreras (and Vazquez) had issues dealing with the pressures of New York and also the issue of his family being stuck in Cuba. Throw him on another team with a fellow Cuban (El Duque) and you have the seeds for success.

Don't get me wrong, I can't think of another pitching coach I'd rather see on the Sox than Cooper but some seem to think this guy can do anything. There are many circumstances that have played out in his favor but he is human like everyone else. When the entire Sox pitching staff was in the crapper after the All-Star break in 2006, where was his "magic" then? I'm sure if I dug through the archives, I could find plenty of threads calling for Cooper's head just like the goofballs calling for Walker's head now.


My point is he does his job well, and gets players to play to potential, and there's nothing else any coach can do. You can say whatever you want about Contreras, the Chicago White Sox were the team that took the chance on him. It was Coop who figured out he was tipping pitches.

btw: You just brought up another great point, El Duque who turned his career around in chicago. Its not magic, its just good coaching.

Noone thinks he is magic (although when we get "X" pitcher and the first thing some idiot says is "Coop will fix him" it is extremely annoying. He can't "fix" 7 pitchers at once.) I think he's probably the best pitching coach in baseball. I would recommend a starter with great Stuff who's had injury problems or a rough season to come to this organization. That might not be all Coop either. Its the low pressure media, Herm, the defense we have, and the catcher we have.

Garcia had good #'s the season we got him, but few people were optimistic about what he was going to do here. Many said he'd be on the DL. Many said he'd struggle with HR's. He pitched to full potential, and in his second season became the pitcher he was supposed to be all along for the White Sox.

With Walker all I see is Konerko with a horrible season for the White Sox, a horrible half season for the White Sox, and now he's back to hitting .197. This is the guy who other people on the team are modeling their swings after.

I also see a hitting related injury on Thome, a triple crown minor league 3rd baseman who took way too long to reach his potential, and a busted OF prospect. Where's the hitting? All I see is HR's.

FedEx227
05-01-2007, 08:53 PM
There were many factors in play. Didn't the Yankees want him to only throw at a certain arm angle, despite his success at other angels? The point is, Contreras certainly had the talent and just needed some tweaking. Could pitching coaches other than Cooper have done this tweaking? Beats me.

Yeah, it's very possible they could have. The Yankees made absolutely no attempt to change/notice anything he did. I know for one they only let him use 1 arm angle, which we've seen is not where he excels.

Plus, he would grind his hands whenever he threw the forkball, to which now he'll grind his hands no matter what pitch he's throwing.

Yes, it's possible any other pitching coach other than Coop could have seen those flaws and picked it up, but it's pretty unfair to not at least credit him a bit for his work on a majority of our staff.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 08:57 PM
Yes, it's possible any other pitching coach other than Coop could have seen those flaws and picked it up, but it's pretty unfair to not at least credit him a bit for his work on a majority of our staff.

When did I ever not give Cooper any credit? The point is he shouldn't get FULL credit just like Walker shouldn't take ALL the blame for the recent hitting struggles.

Man, I hope the Sox win tonight. I don't think West's servers can handle another loss.:redneck

UserNameBlank
05-01-2007, 09:02 PM
There were many factors in play. Didn't the Yankees want him to only throw at a certain arm angle, despite his success at other angels? The point is, Contreras certainly had the talent and just needed some tweaking. Could pitching coaches other than Cooper have done this tweaking? Beats me.
IIRC the story goes like this:

The Yankees wanted him to consistently throw from the same arm angle and after trying that, Jose began tipping his pitches as he wasn't comfortable in one set delivery.

After he was traded to the Sox, Coop told him to do whatever it was he did in Cuba, which had him switching back to various arm angles. Then El Duque came here and began helping him out a bit, and Coop also got in his head that he didn't have to be a strikeout pitcher anymore, telling him all he had to do was throw strikes and get ahead of hitters.

I think the change in approach, reverting to his normal style of delivery, and the comfort level in Chicago with El Duque and his family all there combined to turn him into the pitcher he was became since the second half of '05.

getonbckthr
05-01-2007, 09:03 PM
I wouldn't blame Walker. His job is mechanics. I really haven't seen any bad mechanics besides Uribe and well thats just Uribe for you. A hitting coach can't help these guys take pressure off themselves. Guys like Paulie, Crede and AJ are just pressuring themselves too much right now. They need to relax, take a step back, and just be content with little singles to right field opposed to being obsessed with driving the ball over the LF fence. Once they can do that they will find their groove.

UserNameBlank
05-01-2007, 09:03 PM
There were many factors in play. Didn't the Yankees want him to only throw at a certain arm angle, despite his success at other angels? The point is, Contreras certainly had the talent and just needed some tweaking. Could pitching coaches other than Cooper have done this tweaking? Beats me.
IIRC the story goes like this:

The Yankees wanted him to consistently throw from the same arm angle and after trying that, Jose began tipping his pitches as he wasn't comfortable in one set delivery.

After he was traded to the Sox, Coop told him to do whatever it was he did in Cuba, which had him switching back to various arm angles. Then El Duque came here and began helping him out a bit, and Coop also got in his head that he didn't have to be a strikeout pitcher anymore, telling him all he had to do was throw strikes and get ahead of hitters.

I think the change in approach, reverting to his normal style of delivery, and the comfort level in Chicago with El Duque and his family all there combined to turn him into the pitcher he became since the second half of '05.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 09:06 PM
I wouldn't blame Walker. His job is mechanics. I really haven't seen any bad mechanics besides Uribe and well thats just Uribe for you. A hitting coach can't help these guys take pressure off themselves. Guys like Paulie, Crede and AJ are just pressuring themselves too much right now. They need to relax, take a step back, and just be content with little singles to right field opposed to being obsessed with driving the ball over the LF fence. Once they can do that they will find their groove.

Except when Uribe falls back into 2006-mode, his swing and overall approach at the plate is much better than in the past. He's taking pitches, going opposite field, etc. But for the most part, I agree that the approaches at the plate haven't been terrible for most of the hitters. They just all appear to be slumping at the same time.

FedEx227
05-01-2007, 11:55 PM
Except when Uribe falls back into 2006-mode, his swing and overall approach at the plate is much better than in the past. He's taking pitches, going opposite field, etc. But for the most part, I agree that the approaches at the plate haven't been terrible for most of the hitters. They just all appear to be slumping at the same time.

He finally seems to have gotten rid of that long swing that would screwdriver him into the ground. I like the new tight stance hes got, keeps him more closed and quicker.

itsnotrequired
05-01-2007, 11:57 PM
He finally seems to have gotten rid of that long swing that would screwdriver him into the ground. I like the new tight stance hes got, keeps him more closed and quicker.

Walker probably had nothing to do with it.

Lillian
05-02-2007, 12:59 PM
When an entire team is not hitting, isn't it reasonable to conclude that it is something more than simply everyone just being in a slump? It would seem much more probable that the opposing pitching has a great deal to do with it.
After all, the Sox have faced a lot of very good starters, to say nothing of the terrific bullpens of the Twins, Tigers and Angels.
Here is a list of some of the starters whom we have faced, and their 2007 ERA's:

Sabathia (twice) 3.38
Santana 5.79 (But we all know how tough he is)
Harden 1.42
Gaudin 2.54
Kennedy 2.86
Byrd 3.50
Tejeda 3.82
Robertson 2.43
Verlander 2.79
Meche 2.18
Weaver 5.40 (He has very good stuff)
Escobar 3.28

It seems as though the Sox are not the only teams to have had a hard time hitting off of these guys.

Couldn't it just be a case of the old adage about "good pitching usually beats good hitting"? Moreover, could it be that all of that good pitching now has our guys in a funk, which not even lesser pitching can easily remedy?

BanditJimmy
05-02-2007, 01:13 PM
When an entire team is not hitting, isn't it reasonable to conclude that it is something more than simply everyone just being in a slump? It would seem much more probable that the opposing pitching has a great deal to do with it.
After all, the Sox have faced a lot of very good starters, to say nothing of the terrific bullpens of the Twins, Tigers and Angels.
Here is a list of some of the starters whom we have faced, and their 2007 ERA's:

Sabathia (twice) 3.38
Santana 5.79 (But we all know how tough he is)
Harden 1.42
Gaudin 2.54
Kennedy 2.86
Byrd 3.50
Tejeda 3.82
Robertson 2.43
Verlander 2.79
Meche 2.18
Weaver 5.40 (He has very good stuff)
Escobar 3.28

It seems as though the Sox are not the only teams to have had a hard time hitting off of these guys.

Couldn't it just be a case of the old adage about "good pitching usually beats good hitting"? Moreover, could it be that all of that good pitching now has our guys in a funk, which not even lesser pitching can easily remedy?

It's all about approach and having a plan at what to do at the plate.

When I see TB, Balt, KC, & the Indians scoring 4+ runs versus Johan in one game, something tells me our hitters are the issue and not who they are facing.

CLR01
05-02-2007, 01:24 PM
Walker probably had nothing to do with it.

Don't be so sure he does. Uribe started working with Walt Hriniak toward the end of the 2005 season. He may still be working with him or with someone else.

FielderJones
05-02-2007, 01:28 PM
I look forward to the day when Daver has seen enough of this crap.

IndianWhiteSox
05-02-2007, 02:04 PM
I look forward to the day when Daver has seen enough of this crap.

I can't believe that this thread already has 92 posts!

:o:

ondafarm
05-02-2007, 03:23 PM
I can't believe that this thread already has 92 posts!

:o:

I had a thread the other day which I started at 8:30 AM which had 100 posts by 1:30 PM.

WizardsofOzzie
05-02-2007, 03:29 PM
I had a thread the other day which I started at 8:30 AM which had 100 posts by 1:30 PM.
:worship:

WizardsofOzzie
05-02-2007, 03:33 PM
I can't believe that this thread already has 92 posts!
:o:
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7784/0408223bmicantbelievefp7.jpg

Cuck_The_Fubs
05-02-2007, 04:10 PM
Yes, Ozzie may be full of himself and KW may not be getting the pieces to correlate with Ozzie, but before anyone else leaves, this man has to go:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg (http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg&imgrefurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/cfbc_coaches.htm&h=1011&w=792&sz=70&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGreg%2BWalker%2Bbaseball%2Bplayer%26s vnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

Greg Walker needs to be fired, the Sox are a good offense in spite of him. I mean of all the hitters in the history of this organization, they can bring Ventura, Baines, Johnson, Allen, etc. to take Walkers position.
I agree, 'nuff said.

HotelWhiteSox
05-02-2007, 05:54 PM
4ltD21rYWVw

ondafarm
05-02-2007, 08:25 PM
This is actually starting to look like a better idea.

Jurr
05-02-2007, 10:14 PM
There's one piece of logic to this.

After a certain amount of time, unless the coach is a bona fide guru, there's a peak to what the guy is capable of teaching or adapting to. Coaching is about mechanics and mindset. At what point does a roster lose confidence in the approach it's following?

Walker did wonders for Crede, Konerko, and Rowand. There's no disputing that. However, there comes a time when the hitters may need a new perspective. Frank Thomas was notorious for bringing in Walt Hriniak to get himself right.

The core of the Sox offensive roster has been together for three years. Does there come a point where they lose enough confidence in Walker's approach that they tune out?

MetroPD
05-02-2007, 10:26 PM
The core of the Sox offensive roster has been together for three years. Does there come a point where they lose enough confidence in Walker's approach that they tune out?
Could be, but whatever it is, its not working now. Our offense is woefully inadequete.

ondafarm
05-02-2007, 10:40 PM
Can we get a tomato here?

I actually think Walk is the most likely guy to go at this time.

IndianWhiteSox
05-03-2007, 04:59 AM
I had a thread the other day which I started at 8:30 AM which had 100 posts by 1:30 PM.

Showoff
:tongue:

I agree, 'nuff said.

Thank you

4ltD21rYWVw

Ahh, the good old days

This is actually starting to look like a better idea.

Thank you

There's one piece of logic to this.

After a certain amount of time, unless the coach is a bona fide guru, there's a peak to what the guy is capable of teaching or adapting to. Coaching is about mechanics and mindset. At what point does a roster lose confidence in the approach it's following?

Walker did wonders for Crede, Konerko, and Rowand. There's no disputing that. However, there comes a time when the hitters may need a new perspective. Frank Thomas was notorious for bringing in Walt Hriniak to get himself right.

The core of the Sox offensive roster has been together for three years. Does there come a point where they lose enough confidence in Walker's approach that they tune out?

Thank you, that's what I was going for.

Can we get a tomato here?

I actually think Walk is the most likely guy to go at this time.

Here ya go:

:tomatoaward

BeviBall!
05-03-2007, 08:35 AM
The lack of hitting is not Greg Walker's fault.

Correct. Today's hip-hop lyrics are to blame.

IndianWhiteSox
05-03-2007, 09:18 PM
Correct. Today's hip-hop lyrics are to blame.

Right.

:rolleyes:

Frontman
05-03-2007, 09:58 PM
Correct. Today's hip-hop lyrics are to blame.


Man, I so thought it was Chris Singelton's fault. He seems to get the blame for everything else! MAN!

IndianWhiteSox
05-18-2007, 10:21 PM
This guy really needs to get the ax now more than ever. That is the only thing bringing down the sox right now.

Chisox003
05-18-2007, 10:25 PM
This guy really needs to get the ax now more than ever. That is the only thing saving the sox right now.
So when do the HITTERS get the blame? I've seen Ozzie, Walker, Hawk, KW and just about everyone else under the sun catching heat for the hitting except the guys who actually step into the box.

Maybe I'm just thinking to rationally. I mean, we did lose to the Cubs today, meaning all is lost for 2007. Why not just scrap the whole thing and start playing for '08?

southsideirish71
05-18-2007, 10:56 PM
So when do the HITTERS get the blame? I've seen Ozzie, Walker, Hawk, KW and just about everyone else under the sun catching heat for the hitting except the guys who actually step into the box.

Maybe I'm just thinking to rationally. I mean, we did lose to the Cubs today, meaning all is lost for 2007. Why not just scrap the whole thing and start playing for '08?

All of the hitters cant hit. That is nearly impossible. There are 9 hitters that start, and a few role players. If Konerko and a few others are struggling while a few others are hitting bad sure then blame some of the hitters. When every single player cant hit, and has the same exact blueprint issue then we can take a step back and look at the coaches. 4 out of the last 6 hitters struck out in todays game. We have a bunch of guys who have good power, low BA and strikeout at a good clip. The minute the game gets out of hand, they all try and hit homers. Its time to fire Greg Walker, and replace him with something outside of the organization.

BanditJimmy
05-18-2007, 11:00 PM
Why not just scrap the whole thing and start playing for '08?


The season can be saved with just mediocre offense instead of this .215 - .220 crap we are seeing for 7 weeks now. Not asking the guys to be great but just be avearage (.250).


If you want to save the season you can't fire 15 hitters. Only other move is to fire the coach who appears to have failed for 7 weeks now in trying to get this offense going or look for a different approach.


People are in complete shock when someone mentions that Walker should get canned. Last I checked Walker would not be the first "hitting instructor" or "the best one" to be fired in the history of the game. These kinds of things happen when a team is failing big time at the plate

skottyj242
05-19-2007, 12:14 AM
I'm not about firing Greg Walker, I actually started a Fire Mark Salas thread but he gave me a ball yesterday so he's cool in my book for now.

FedEx227
05-19-2007, 12:23 AM
People are in complete shock when someone mentions that Walker should get canned. Last I checked Walker would not be the first "hitting instructor" or "the best one" to be fired in the history of the game. These kinds of things happen when a team is failing big time at the plate

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/indians/2005-06-05-murray-dismissed_x.htm

Eddie Murray fired from the Indians 6/5/2005

They then proceed to go 67-34

Blueprint1
05-19-2007, 05:01 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/indians/2005-06-05-murray-dismissed_x.htm

Eddie Murray fired from the Indians 6/5/2005

They then proceed to go 67-34

Hey look maybe hitting coaches do make a difference.

LITTLE NELL
05-19-2007, 06:16 AM
I think this hitting slump is a product of the horrible spring training the Sox had. The Sox did not prepare well at all. Im not sure but Id bet that our starting lineup had the fewest ABs of all the MLB teams.
Olso Ozzie needs to stick with a set lineup for awhile.

Grzegorz
05-19-2007, 06:22 AM
So when do the HITTERS get the blame?

They get the blame right here and now. There is no excuse for their poor performance. As another poster stated, if the Chicago White Sox were just in the middle of the pack offensively they'd have had a much greater chance of winning some of those games early in the season.

I am so tired of hearing that the Chicago White Sox have an excellent offense. They do not have an excellent offense until they show that they can win games by executing in all phases of the game: offense, defense, and pitching.

I remember last year clearly; all that was needed was someone to "flip that switch". I am hearing that same excuse now.

Just get it done...

IndianWhiteSox
05-19-2007, 08:08 AM
The season can be saved with just mediocre offense instead of this .215 - .220 crap we are seeing for 7 weeks now. Not asking the guys to be great but just be avearage (.250).


If you want to save the season you can't fire 15 hitters. Only other move is to fire the coach who appears to have failed for 7 weeks now in trying to get this offense going or look for a different approach.


People are in complete shock when someone mentions that Walker should get canned. Last I checked Walker would not be the first "hitting instructor" or "the best one" to be fired in the history of the game. These kinds of things happen when a team is failing big time at the plate

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/indians/2005-06-05-murray-dismissed_x.htm

Eddie Murray fired from the Indians 6/5/2005

They then proceed to go 67-34

Thank you guys for backing up my stance. The fact of the matter is this, even if the Sox win the World Series this year, he still should get the ax unless this team hits above .275. Then maybe, and only then, will it show that he can really make a positive impact on the bats. But until then, my stance won't change. Just remember why the Sox won in 2005...................

soxfan13
05-19-2007, 08:34 AM
Thank you guys for backing up my stance. The fact of the matter is this, even if the Sox win the World Series this year, he still should get the ax unless this team hits above .275. Then maybe, and only then, will it show that he can really make a positive impact on the bats. But until then, my stance won't change. Just remember why the Sox won in 2005...................

Was it their unbelievable team average of .262:rolleyes:

SOXSINCE'70
05-19-2007, 08:39 AM
Now that I think about it, there's a beer vendor in my section who does not display the right attitude about the team.



Fire him.

I want to fire the guy who yells "Hot Dooooooooogs!!"
and can be heard all around Comiskey Park.How's that??:redneck

SOXSINCE'70
05-19-2007, 08:41 AM
I am so tired of hearing that the Chicago White Sox have an excellent offense. They do not have an excellent offense until they show that they can win games by executing in all phases of the game: offense, defense, and pitching.

I remember last year clearly; all that was needed was someone to "flip that switch". I am hearing that same excuse now.

Just get it done...

I concur.

IndianWhiteSox
05-19-2007, 09:48 AM
Was it their unbelievable team average of .262:rolleyes:

You're right, I thought the excellent pitching,speed and defense part of it was just a complete dream.
:rolleyes:

It's almost like, even when they won in 2005, it was in spite of Greg Walker's great coaching.

FarWestChicago
05-19-2007, 09:56 AM
It's almost like, even when they won in 2005, it was in spite of Greg Walker's great coaching.
Yeah, they won is spite of Greg Walker, Ozzie, KW, JR and everybody else associated with that team. It's either a friggin' miracle or they knew more about what they were doing than posters here. I guess I have to go with "friggin' miracle" since the posters here obviously make any professional baseball person look like a moron.

Brian26
05-19-2007, 10:50 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/indians/2005-06-05-murray-dismissed_x.htm

Eddie Murray fired from the Indians 6/5/2005

They then proceed to go 67-34

Completely irrelevant since Eddie Murray didn't win a World Series as their hitting coach in 2003 or 2004. I'm sure the Indians leash would have been much looser with Murray if he had been there for a successful year prior to '05.

roadrunner
05-19-2007, 10:51 AM
Yeah, they won is spite of Greg Walker, Ozzie, KW, JR and everybody else associated with that team. It's either a friggin' miracle or they knew more about what they were doing than posters here. I guess I have to go with "friggin' miracle" since the posters here obviously make any professional baseball person look like a moron.

So we should just stop discussing the team and prepare for the construction of the 2005 White Sox wing at Cooperstown.

Brian26
05-19-2007, 10:51 AM
Yeah, they won is spite of Greg Walker, Ozzie, KW, JR and everybody else associated with that team.

Don't forget Hawk. :D:

Jurr
05-19-2007, 10:57 AM
Yeah, they won is spite of Greg Walker, Ozzie, KW, JR and everybody else associated with that team. It's either a friggin' miracle or they knew more about what they were doing than posters here. I guess I have to go with "friggin' miracle" since the posters here obviously make any professional baseball person look like a moron.
Thank you for your intelligence.
Very true. The onus of this "slump" falls on the players.
JD is beginning to climb out of his slump, and Konerko, despite having a terrible batting average, is at least putting up good RBI production. With Thome and Pods out, this offense is running in a swimming pool. Lots of resistance!!! When the lineup gets healthy, which should be soon, things should get a little easier for the heart of the lineup. At the beginning of the year, it didn't matter, because JD was absolutely abysmal. He's showing signs of climbing out of his slumber, and I expect Konerko to do the same.

If Uribe can keep up the pace that he has set, this lineup may become extremely lethal by June. In the meantime, the Sox have done a great job treading water, staying above .500 and within 5 games of first. When the Sox were in the middle of that 5 game losing streak, people on this board were saying, "The only way this team will have a shot is if they can stay close by the end of May, though it doesn't look like they will."

Well, I'd consider 5 games out pretty close. I don't expect them to get much further out by June. Hell, they had won 6 of 8 before yesterday's game.

jabrch
05-19-2007, 10:59 AM
Yeah, they won is spite of Greg Walker, Ozzie, KW, JR and everybody else associated with that team. It's either a friggin' miracle or they knew more about what they were doing than posters here. I guess I have to go with "friggin' miracle" since the posters here obviously make any professional baseball person look like a moron.


With all the people here who know so much about the game, I'd be shocked if most of our members aren't GMs of other MLB clubs.

This place has become nearly intolerable after a loss.

Jurr
05-19-2007, 11:05 AM
With all the people here who know so much about the game, I'd be shocked if most of our members aren't GMs of other MLB clubs.

This place has become nearly intolerable after a loss.
I'm with you. You can't win 'em all. When a loss occurs, people start flying off the friggin' handle. Ridiculous.

soxfan13
05-19-2007, 11:06 AM
With all the people here who know so much about the game, I'd be shocked if most of our members aren't GMs of other MLB clubs.

This place has become nearly intolerable after a loss.

I have won many a World Series with my teams that I am owner and Gm but thats only after I turn off the fair trade option on my Xbox:tongue: :gulp:

FarWestChicago
05-19-2007, 11:06 AM
So we should just stop discussing the team and prepare for the construction of the 2005 White Sox wing at Cooperstown.There is a difference between discussing something and going insane after every loss and claiming you know more about physics than Stephen Hawking. The number of black and white thinkers around here, people with absolutely no perspective, is astonishing.

FarWestChicago
05-19-2007, 11:07 AM
Don't forget Hawk. :D:I'm slipping. :redneck

Frater Perdurabo
05-19-2007, 11:10 AM
With Thome and Pods out, I would expect that pitchers simply would throw junk to Dye, Konerko and Crede, based on their reputation for hitting homers. But pitchers are challenging them; they know that neither of the three is likely to be sufficiently patient to work a walk.

Paulie hit just fine during second half of 2004, when Maggs and Frank were injured (and when Thome wasn't there). He hit like crap throughout 2003, when both Maggs and Frank had very good seasons. He was mediocre in the first half of 2005, with no protection at all, but the Sox were winning because of stellar starting pitching and were scoring just enough runs because Pods, Iguchi and Everett were manufacturing runs (PK did have some timely solo shots, too).

It's dishonest to blame the hitting woes on Thome and Pods being out of the lineup.

It's fine to blame a low overall team OBP on Thome and Pods being out. It's understandable that runs would be down with Thome and Pods being out.

But Paulie, Crede and Dye all have hit much better thoughout their careers in all kinds of circumstances. Their approach at the plate seems to be problem, and I maintain that it's the job of the hitting coach to correct that.

jabrch
05-19-2007, 11:26 AM
Thank you guys for backing up my stance. The fact of the matter is this, even if the Sox win the World Series this year, he still should get the ax unless this team hits above .275. Then maybe, and only then, will it show that he can really make a positive impact on the bats. But until then, my stance won't change. Just remember why the Sox won in 2005...................


Let me make sure I understand you clearly.

If the Sox don't hit above .275, the hitting coach should be fired.

Are you aware that only 2 teams in all of baseball are hitting over. 275 this year, and they happened to be the teams with the top two payrolls in baseball - NY and Boston.

That's gotta be on the short list of dumbest statements I have seen on WSI - granted it has a lot of competition.

Lukin13
05-19-2007, 11:30 AM
If we cannot hold Greg Walker responsible for the entire team not hitting/having an horrendous OBP, then why do we even have a hitting coach in the first place?

The Sox as a team just have a real bad approach, outside of Thome. NO one walks at all. It is acceptable (but still not great) to be a 30 walk per 550 at-bat guy if you are hitting .315, but not if you are hitting .260 or below. I am not sure if this is KW's mistake for assembling a bunch of players with this mentality or if it is indeed an organization wide strategy... and no matter who we add to fold they will eventually revert to hacking away.

Obviously, no one wants to break up the main core of this squad to get some guys that get on base, but at the very least then our complimentary players need to make up for this lack of base runners.

I feel the #1 problem with this team is our approach at the plate, and if you can't hold Walker responsible for that then we don't need a hitting coach. The only explanation I will accept is that they are glorified positions for employees who no longer can perform (every office has them) and it is a nice way to keep retired guys in the game.

jabrch
05-19-2007, 11:37 AM
The only explanation I will accept is that they are glorified positions for employees who no longer can perform (every office has them) and it is a nice way to keep retired guys in the game.

Well - If I were you, I'd be a bit more open to other options. One that warrants strong consideration is that Greg Walker's boss (OG) and his bosses boss (KW) agree with his approach/philosophy to hitting and that our management is of the opinion that this is nothing more than our big 3 hitters not hitting well coupled with a few big injuries.

Coaches get too much credit for things that go right and too much blame when they don't. This place is legendary for overblaming coaches and not holding players accountable. Paul Konerko is making 15mm, he is our captain and team leader. He's supposed to be the key piece to the center of this lineup. He is hitting .190/.287/.338. Blaming Greg Walker for that is your perogative - but I think it is pointing the finger at the wrong place. Same with JD. Same with Iguchi. These aren't rookies. These are veteran MLB players.

soxfan13
05-19-2007, 12:28 PM
If we cannot hold Greg Walker responsible for the entire team not hitting/having an horrendous OBP, then why do we even have a hitting coach in the first place?

The Sox as a team just have a real bad approach, outside of Thome. NO one walks at all. It is acceptable (but still not great) to be a 30 walk per 550 at-bat guy if you are hitting .315, but not if you are hitting .260 or below. I am not sure if this is KW's mistake for assembling a bunch of players with this mentality or if it is indeed an organization wide strategy... and no matter who we add to fold they will eventually revert to hacking away.

Obviously, no one wants to break up the main core of this squad to get some guys that get on base, but at the very least then our complimentary players need to make up for this lack of base runners.

I feel the #1 problem with this team is our approach at the plate, and if you can't hold Walker responsible for that then we don't need a hitting coach. The only explanation I will accept is that they are glorified positions for employees who no longer can perform (every office has them) and it is a nice way to keep retired guys in the game.

Do you honestly think Greg Walker hasnt talked to them about their approach and telling them to make more pitches? Walker is most likely on them everyday but it still comes down to the players executing. Like another poster has said coaches get much too much credit when things go right and even more blame when things go wrong. Bottom line is that it is the players job to get the job done and they just arent doing it right now. I highly doubt a new hitting coach will get them out of this funk.


Please lord please let the Sox win the game today and they score about 15. They have taken their last 4 series and they still have a shot to take the Cubs series. Lets help get some folks off the ledge!!:gulp:

IndianWhiteSox
05-19-2007, 08:47 PM
Yeah, they won is spite of Greg Walker, Ozzie, KW, JR and everybody else associated with that team. It's either a friggin' miracle or they knew more about what they were doing than posters here. I guess I have to go with "friggin' miracle" since the posters here obviously make any professional baseball person look like a moron.

What I was implying, was that Ozzie, KW, JR and everyone else bailed out his bitch ass. If you look at the numbers from 2005, then you have to agree.

MetroPD
05-19-2007, 09:05 PM
Our relief pitching is more of a concern than our hitting right now.

TDog
05-19-2007, 09:17 PM
Yeah, they won is spite of Greg Walker, Ozzie, KW, JR and everybody else associated with that team. It's either a friggin' miracle or they knew more about what they were doing than posters here. I guess I have to go with "friggin' miracle" since the posters here obviously make any professional baseball person look like a moron.

This is so well written and so on point that I feel the need to share with you how much I enjoy your posts.

Martinigirl
05-19-2007, 09:29 PM
Our relief pitching is more of a concern than our hitting right now.

Exactly. Our bats seem to be waking up just in time to see our bullpen implode.

Soxfest
05-19-2007, 11:11 PM
Walk can walk.:yup:

IndianWhiteSox
05-20-2007, 02:13 AM
Walk can walk.:yup:

Truer words couldn't have been spoken.
:cool:

soxinem1
05-21-2007, 04:42 PM
He's by far and away not a top hitting coach, but just like when Von Joshua, Ron Jackson, Walt Hriniak, Bill Buckner, and Gary Ward were tossed, the fact remains......

IT'S THE PLAYERS WHO ARE SUCKING, NOT GREG WALKER.

Daver
05-21-2007, 04:45 PM
He's by far and away not a top hitting coach, but just like when Von Joshua, Ron Jackson, Walt Hriniak, Bill Buckner, and Gary Ward were tossed, the fact remains......

IT'S THE PLAYERS WHO ARE SUCKING, NOT GREG WALKER.

Von Joshua was not fired because the hitters struggled, he was fired for disagreeing with Jerry Manuel.

ondafarm
05-21-2007, 04:51 PM
Von Joshua was not fired because the hitters struggled, he was fired for disagreeing with Jerry Manuel.

Imagine that.

soxinem1
05-21-2007, 06:42 PM
Von Joshua was not fired because the hitters struggled, he was fired for disagreeing with Jerry Manuel.

I seem to remember an instance or two when the players ignored his drills or schedules.....

Daver
05-21-2007, 06:43 PM
I seem to remember an instance or two when the players ignored his drills or schedules.....

One player, who JM liked and Von thought was useless, he was later traded to the Reds.

Lukin13
05-21-2007, 11:30 PM
Do you honestly think Greg Walker hasnt talked to them about their approach and telling them to make more pitches? Walker is most likely on them everyday but it still comes down to the players executing. Like another poster has said coaches get much too much credit when things go right and even more blame when things go wrong. Bottom line is that it is the players job to get the job done and they just arent doing it right now. I highly doubt a new hitting coach will get them out of this funk.


Please lord please let the Sox win the game today and they score about 15. They have taken their last 4 series and they still have a shot to take the Cubs series. Lets help get some folks off the ledge!!:gulp:

The Sox as a team have a horrible approach... no team in MLB has a larger percentage of power hitters with terrible OBP. If this does't reflect on the hitting coach I don't know what does....

I am not on the ledge, I was saying this during '05 when everything was fine and dandy.

I completely understand that Walker cannot execute for the players; and he very well may be on their backs every day telling them to be more patient... but for whatever reason the players are not responding. If you are a manager and your employees are not doing their job, eventually you are gonna have to take some responsibility. At the very least you weren't able to convince them to execute properly.

In late '06 when Paulie got his extension, when everyone was saying he took less money to stay home; I thought the Sox actually overpaid.... Other first basemen with like HR, RBI and AVG totals... and like paychecks... walk an additional 30-60 times a year and have much higher on base percentages.

It is easy for everyone to constantly say: "Calm down, take it easy, everything will work out"; but this team core has ALWAYS taken this approach and it was despite this... not because of this that they won in '05. This is not new to '07.

Soxfanspcu11
05-22-2007, 12:24 AM
Yes, Ozzie may be full of himself and KW may not be getting the pieces to correlate with Ozzie, but before anyone else leaves, this man has to go:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg (http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/images/Walker.jpg&imgrefurl=http://chicagofantasybaseballcamp.com/cfbc_coaches.htm&h=1011&w=792&sz=70&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=tt3IFRjdqJzNiM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGreg%2BWalker%2Bbaseball%2Bplayer%26s vnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

Greg Walker needs to be fired, the Sox are a good offense in spite of him.

Agree with you 100%!!!

I have NEVER liked Greg Walker, EVER! I can not figure out why he has been employed as a hitting coach for so long!

Under his watch, he has had some amazing hitters who greatly underachieved and simply did not get the job done when it was needed most.

It is always hard to say just how much a coach/manager/GM has an affect on a player or team, but the fact that Walker seems to have such a negative impact and affect is reason enough for him to go.

The Sox having the worst offense in MLB is just unacceptable on so many levels. The lineup that they have, offensively is amazing!!! They should be averaging about 6-7 runs a game!!! Being last in the league, gosh, that sounds like a joke!!! It just doesn't sound like that could be true, at all!

And as I said, I don't know how much Walker has to do with that. After all, he is not the one stepping up to the plater. However, the Sox offense is just so bad and they just should not be!!! It doesn't make sense AT ALL!!!

Here is an example, I don't remember exactly, it was either in late '05 or late last year. Uribe was struggling incredibly at the plate. Uribe said that he and Walker then came up with the "leg-lift". The "leg-lift" was implemented as a timing device that allowed Uribe to catch up to the fastball and to not corkscrew on the off-speed stuff. After that was implemented, Uribe was hitting something like .450 over 2 or 3 weeks. So what happens next?? He STOPS DOING THE LEG-LIFT!!!! WHAT THE CRAP?!?!?!

Why in the hell would he stop doing something that was working so effectively and making him such a better hitter?!?! Perhaps Uribe didn't like the way it looked or felt uncomfortable, but the results were ASTOUNDING!!!!!

Walker should have INSISTED and MADE Uribe keep the leg-lift. Well, I have not seen Uribe do the lift in forever now and he is back to his mediocre to poor hitting. In my mind, Walker needs to DRILL into Uribe's head that this is the way for him to hit! END OF STORY!!!

That's a perfect example of why Walker is garbage.


In late '06 when Paulie got his extension

Not to nitpick, but you do mean in "late '05" correct?

DumpJerry
05-22-2007, 12:59 AM
After the offensive firepower of the past three games, I was tempted to shut down this thread for being useless. However, I know haters need an outlet.:rolleyes:

Jurr
05-22-2007, 07:45 AM
After the offensive firepower of the past three games, I was tempted to shut down this thread for being useless. However, I know haters need an outlet.:rolleyes:
At the beginning of the year, the offense struggled. We all know this. Dye, Konerko, Crede, and the rest of the offense was crap. Was it because of the weather? Possibly. The number of off days, which prevented a rhythm? Maybe.

I had posted earlier that the Sox offense without Thome (and to some extent Pods) was similar to running with a parachute. It's a little tougher to score without your big threat in the middle (who gets on base a LOT). Well, some of the Sox hitters were able to step up just enough to keep the team competitive during Thome's DL stint. Now, with the big guy back, the parachute's off. The boys can run free now, and so far so good.

IndianWhiteSox
05-22-2007, 07:59 AM
After the offensive firepower of the past three games, I was tempted to shut down this thread for being useless. However, I know haters need an outlet.:rolleyes:

So now, the great Greg Walker has turned this offense into the '27 Yankees.
:rolleyes:

Listen, I want this team to do well as much as the next guy, but you can't be serious in saying that Walker isn't the weakest link in the coaching staff.

jabrch
05-22-2007, 09:32 AM
So now, the great Greg Walker has turned this offense into the '27 Yankees.
:rolleyes:

Listen, I want this team to do well as much as the next guy, but you can't be serious in saying that Walker isn't the weakest link in the coaching staff.


You can't be serious in continuing to bitch about our offense when we have scored 6 runs per game the past 6 games. Then again - you seem most happy when you bitch - so maybe you are serious.

The concept of a "Weakest Link" is flawed because it assumes that there is one. There is not. Walker is in lockstep with the philosophy and approach that OG and KW preach. If you don't like Walker, you should be pushing to unload this entire regime (and you'd be a complete boob to do that) since Walker is in line with his boss and his bosses boss.

soxfan13
05-22-2007, 09:55 AM
So now, the great Greg Walker has turned this offense into the '27 Yankees.
:rolleyes:

Listen, I want this team to do well as much as the next guy, but you can't be serious in saying that Walker isn't the weakest link in the coaching staff.


Im surprised you guys arent starting a fire Don Cooper thread now that the bullpen has a 10+ ERA over the last 11 games. Again it all boils down to the players performing. If the Sox had fired Walk, whoever the new batting coach was, would be getting credit for the turn around the last three games. Which also leads into the saying, which has been mentioned many times before on this thread, that the coaches get way too much credit when things are going bad and even more blame when things are bad.

Lukin13
05-22-2007, 08:46 PM
I think there is more "calm down, everything will be allright" crapola around here than there is "dark cloud" talk.

Coming into the season you would have to say the Sox were a top 5 offensive team. 1/4 of the way into the season they were the worst... with Thome out of the lineup not one damn starter had a proper approach at the plate.

Fire Greg Walker! Get someone in there that can convince our hitters to make a pitcher work a tad.

FarWestChicago
05-22-2007, 08:51 PM
I think there is more "calm down, everything will be allright" crapola around here than there is "dark cloud" talk.:roflmao:

You are kidding? Right? :?:

getonbckthr
05-22-2007, 09:19 PM
Fire Walker, 10 hits and 7 runs through 4 innings is unacceptable.

CLR01
05-22-2007, 09:33 PM
Fire Walker, 10 hits and 7 runs through 4 innings is unacceptable.

Exactly. I like my team swinging for the fences and hitting .220 all year long.

getonbckthr
05-22-2007, 09:40 PM
Exactly. I like my team swinging for the fences and hitting .220 all year long.
Didn't you know Walker has a computer program where he controls the hitters brain during each at bat?

CLR01
05-22-2007, 09:45 PM
Didn't you know Walker has a computer program where he controls the hitters brain during each at bat?

Nope, I thought he was a bench ornament to keep the dugout looking full. He has no function in the teams hitting approach.

MRM
05-22-2007, 10:45 PM
Fire Walker, 10 hits and 7 runs through 4 innings is unacceptable.

Don't you know Walker has nothing to do with that? It was all "lucky" bloops and "duck snorts", wasn't it? It wasn't? Oh.

Maybe Walker wasn't to blame afterall? I'm so confuuuuuuused.

ChiSoxGirl
05-22-2007, 10:55 PM
Lookie, lookie here... Greg Walker is still the hitting coach and the offense has come alive over the last three games- 28 runs scored since Sunday! Yeah, that offensive slump was all his fault. :rolleyes:

Frontman
05-22-2007, 11:23 PM
Lookie, lookie here... Greg Walker is still the hitting coach and the offense has come alive over the last three games- 28 runs scored since Sunday! Yeah, that offensive slump was all his fault. :rolleyes:

Actually, it was a contract ploy by Jim Thome. Like the Bears with Lance Briggs. If Thome isn't there, the team will refuse to get hits.

MRM
05-22-2007, 11:52 PM
Lookie, lookie here... Greg Walker is still the hitting coach and the offense has come alive over the last three games- 28 runs scored since Sunday! Yeah, that offensive slump was all his fault. :rolleyes:


It's luck...all luck I tell ya. Walker himself couldn't hit a lick when he was injured! How can we expect him to get injured Sox to hit a lick, now??

Seriously. What fool ever blamed a hitting coach when Frank Thomas was in a slump? Or Henry AAron? Should the RED Sox fire their hitting coach since Manny ISN'T being Manny at the plate?

Who is going to start the "Greg Walker rocks" thread now that the Sox have scored 34 runs over the last 4 games??

It's Dankerific
05-23-2007, 03:38 AM
Any friend of Ron Kittle is a friend of mine. Walk can be the hitting coach as long as he wants!

IndianWhiteSox
05-23-2007, 05:21 AM
You can't be serious in continuing to bitch about our offense when we have scored 6 runs per game the past 6 games. Then again - you seem most happy when you bitch - so maybe you are serious.

The concept of a "Weakest Link" is flawed because it assumes that there is one. There is not. Walker is in lockstep with the philosophy and approach that OG and KW preach. If you don't like Walker, you should be pushing to unload this entire regime (and you'd be a complete boob to do that) since Walker is in line with his boss and his bosses boss.

Oh yeah, because my predictions would clearly tell you that I want nothing more than to see the Sox lose. Yep, I love losing so much I even named user name after losers.

:rolleyes:

*****

That's because the lineup realized that their names aren't BA or Julio Ramirez. The lineup doing good really is more so of JT, AJP, PK, JD and Crede getting back on track. Meaning that it is a veteran lineup, who knows what the hell do for the most part. Like I said before, I said fire Walker because he really doesn't bring much to the table win or lose, outburst or slump. I just think that he can't improve young hitters the way Coop can turn some scrap heap pitchers into Aces or lights out relievers.

That said, I just want to see this team win the world series again no matter who's on the coaching staff or roster.




Im surprised you guys arent starting a fire Don Cooper thread now that the bullpen has a 10+ ERA over the last 11 games. Again it all boils down to the players performing. If the Sox had fired Walk, whoever the new batting coach was, would be getting credit for the turn around the last three games. Which also leads into the saying, which has been mentioned many times before on this thread, that the coaches get way too much credit when things are going bad and even more blame when things are bad.

Again, Coop has shown he can turn around an average pitcher into a stud on numerous occasions. Where as no one can say the same for Walker and that is the reason why he should get the ax.

It's luck...all luck I tell ya. Walker himself couldn't hit a lick when he was injured! How can we expect him to get injured Sox to hit a lick, now??

Seriously. What fool ever blamed a hitting coach when Frank Thomas was in a slump? Or Henry AAron? Should the RED Sox fire their hitting coach since Manny ISN'T being Manny at the plate?

Who is going to start the "Greg Walker rocks" thread now that the Sox have scored 34 runs over the last 4 games??

You can start one if you want, but you won't find many examples of his insightful teachings.


Other thoughts-

1.)Ozzie may be the greatest manager in the game today when he has the pieces to play his type of game. He can go a little overboard, but the fact of the matter is this, he does a GREAT job in instilling a winning mentality in the players every day.

2.)That's why I really like KW as well due to the fact, that for the most part, KW does that for Ozzie while also stockpiling the farm system. The man had put the Sox in a position to dominate the ALC, the AL and all of baseball for the next decade and a half with his moves.

3.) Coop is amazing based on the fact that he seems not to be big-headed but yet can still improve many pitchers of his type and this has been proven time and time again. The man has made life A LOT easier for OG, KW, JR and company.

4.) JR can be a scrooge sometimes, but the truth is, when he really wants to bring a winner he'll do whatever it takes. You can look at the Bulls as more examples of evidence.

That's why I say Walk doesn't belong out of all these people. It's not like he's the only guy in the White Sox family that can the only hitting coach for the Sox. There are plenty of people out there I mentioned in the beginning that can do more than enough to replace him.

Lukin13
05-23-2007, 08:45 AM
I love the responses now that the Sox have started to hit all of a sudden....

The same guys that say "You can't blame him when the guys aren't hitting" are saying "See now they are hitting, it might not have been his fault after all". TOO FUNNY!

I AM SAYING: Their approach at the plate still sucks. I said it when they were winning a World Series despite their bats.

IndianWhiteSox
05-23-2007, 09:23 AM
Im surprised you guys arent starting a fire Don Cooper thread now that the bullpen has a 10+ ERA over the last 11 games. Again it all boils down to the players performing. If the Sox had fired Walk, whoever the new batting coach was, would be getting credit for the turn around the last three games.

:nardi

"I wish you were the GM back in my day."

jabrch
05-23-2007, 09:48 AM
I AM SAYING: Their approach at the plate still sucks. I said it when they were winning a World Series despite their bats.

You were wrong then - and you are still wrong.

At the end of the day, you must HIT the ball to win. You do not walk your way into a WS win. Look at the teams who win the WS. They are not the teams (usually) that walk a lot. They are teams that hit. You walk only when pitchers make mistakes. You have no control over what a pitcher throws you. When he throws strikes, you will have ZERO walks.

Ranks in their leagues of Walks
2006 STL - 9th
2005 SOX - 11th
2004 RedSox - 2nd
2003 FLA - 13th
2002 ANA - 11th
2001 ARI - 3rd

Walking doesn't win you crap - because when you face good pitchers, you won't walk enough to win. What the White Sox do is go out there and challenge pitchers. They put the pressure on a pitcher to get them out. Taking pitches, and digging themselves holes is a bad recipie. Being aggressive early in the count, when you are more likely to see something to hit has proven over time to win games everywhere except in Spreadsheetville.

Look at the League Leaders in walks each year. Tell me which of them won a WS? Walking is great against #5 starters. It doesn't work when the chips are down.

Dan Mega
05-23-2007, 09:52 AM
Don't you know Walker has nothing to do with that? It was all "lucky" bloops and "duck snorts", wasn't it? It wasn't? Oh.


Don't forget all those lucky "cans of corn" they've been hitting...into the bleachers.:D:

soxfan13
05-23-2007, 11:06 AM
Oh yeah, because my predictions would clearly tell you that I want nothing more than to see the Sox lose. Yep, I love losing so much I even named user name after losers.

:rolleyes:

*****

That's because the lineup realized that their names aren't BA or Julio Ramirez. The lineup doing good really is more so of JT, AJP, PK, JD and Crede getting back on track. Meaning that it is a veteran lineup, who knows what the hell do for the most part. Like I said before, I said fire Walker because he really doesn't bring much to the table win or lose, outburst or slump. I just think that he can't improve young hitters the way Coop can turn some scrap heap pitchers into Aces or lights out relievers.

That said, I just want to see this team win the world series again no matter who's on the coaching staff or roster.






Again, Coop has shown he can turn around an average pitcher into a stud on numerous occasions. Where as no one can say the same for Walker and that is the reason why he should get the ax.



You can start one if you want, but you won't find many examples of his insightful teachings.


Other thoughts-

1.)Ozzie may be the greatest manager in the game today when he has the pieces to play his type of game. He can go a little overboard, but the fact of the matter is this, he does a GREAT job in instilling a winning mentality in the players every day.

2.)That's why I really like KW as well due to the fact, that for the most part, KW does that for Ozzie while also stockpiling the farm system. The man had put the Sox in a position to dominate the ALC, the AL and all of baseball for the next decade and a half with his moves.

3.) Coop is amazing based on the fact that he seems not to be big-headed but yet can still improve many pitchers of his type and this has been proven time and time again. The man has made life A LOT easier for OG, KW, JR and company.

4.) JR can be a scrooge sometimes, but the truth is, when he really wants to bring a winner he'll do whatever it takes. You can look at the Bulls as more examples of evidence.

That's why I say Walk doesn't belong out of all these people. It's not like he's the only guy in the White Sox family that can the only hitting coach for the Sox. There are plenty of people out there I mentioned in the beginning that can do more than enough to replace him.


OK Ill play. How many average pitchers has he turned into studs?

IndianWhiteSox
05-23-2007, 01:26 PM
OK Ill play. How many average pitchers has he turned into studs?

:o:

Are you serious?

Contreras since mid 2005(well, when healthy)
Vazquez last year(outside of those two months in 2006 where he was out of it)
Thornton(still will finish the year as a lights out reliever)
Jenks(I know coop worked on something with him)
Danks(Same reason as Jenks)
Aardsma(outside of part of this month)

Lukin13
05-24-2007, 10:36 AM
You were wrong then - and you are still wrong.

At the end of the day, you must HIT the ball to win. You do not walk your way into a WS win. Look at the teams who win the WS. They are not the teams (usually) that walk a lot. They are teams that hit. You walk only when pitchers make mistakes. You have no control over what a pitcher throws you. When he throws strikes, you will have ZERO walks.

Ranks in their leagues of Walks
2006 STL - 9th
2005 SOX - 11th
2004 RedSox - 2nd
2003 FLA - 13th
2002 ANA - 11th
2001 ARI - 3rd

Walking doesn't win you crap - because when you face good pitchers, you won't walk enough to win. What the White Sox do is go out there and challenge pitchers. They put the pressure on a pitcher to get them out. Taking pitches, and digging themselves holes is a bad recipie. Being aggressive early in the count, when you are more likely to see something to hit has proven over time to win games everywhere except in Spreadsheetville.

Look at the League Leaders in walks each year. Tell me which of them won a WS? Walking is great against #5 starters. It doesn't work when the chips are down.

Decent argument....

I would be curious to see the percentage of teams in the upper 1/4 of the league in OBP and the correlation with making the playoffs.

I will not dispute that teams like the Sox can get red hot and it isn't bad to be hot in the playoffs.... if you can get there.

BUT

There are so, so many advantages to working pitchers into deep counts it far, far outweighs your claims of "getting after a pitcher, when the chips are down".

Why would it only work against a #5 starter??? Plenty of top rated pitchers are effectively wild, or even just plain inconsistent with their location. And the way to get to them is by going deep into counts, drawing walks, getting guys on base, making the pitcher concentrate on the runners, much larger hitting gaps in the field, and forcing them to come to you!!! Not to mention when the stud starter gets up to 120 pitches, he gone... no matter how well he is doing.

I am not saying that the Sox need to turn into a Moneyball machine, I just think that across the board they have poor OBP compared to their other numbers. That would lead a reasonable man to believe that they need to be a bit more patient at the plate... that would lead me to believe that their hitting coach either is not or cannot convince them of that.

soxfan13
05-24-2007, 10:45 AM
:o:

Are you serious?

Contreras since mid 2005(well, when healthy)
Vazquez last year(outside of those two months in 2006 where he was out of it)
Thornton(still will finish the year as a lights out reliever)
Jenks(I know coop worked on something with him)
Danks(Same reason as Jenks)
Aardsma(outside of part of this month)

Contreras has had one stretch of about a year where he was a stud otherwise you have the same crazily inconsistent pitcher he was with the Yanks

Vazquez hasnt done ANYTHING he hasnt done before. Last years season wasnt even in his top 3 of his career

I might give you Thorton but 1st round pitcher with great stuff before he came he can hardly be considered an average.

Jenks antoher pitcher that had great stuff FYI angels didnt drop him because of his lack of talent they had character issues with him

Danks one of Texas top prospects that wasnt never really given a shot down there again not an average pitcher

Aardsma again GREAT Stuff the Cubs got tired of his inconsistencies and I hope it doesnt play out this way but lately has shown flashes of those inconsistencies

So again show me the AVERAGE pitcher he has turned into a stud?

southsideirish71
05-24-2007, 12:12 PM
Lookie, lookie here... Greg Walker is still the hitting coach and the offense has come alive over the last three games- 28 runs scored since Sunday! Yeah, that offensive slump was all his fault. :rolleyes:

So 7 weeks of horrible hitting is overshadowed by 3 games of great hitting. Well lets see how they hit over the next few days. Cy Gaudin shut them down pretty easily last night.

Shields 3-0 .92 WHIP and a sub .200 BAA. In other words, he is better than Gaudin. He has a plus-plus changeup, and has plus control.

Crap on Saturday. This is when the bats should return, and more comments on how the offense is fine.

Then a lefty Kazmir, who is hard to hit.
Johan on Monday and Boof on Tuesday.

If the offense is truly fixed, we should score some runs on these guys, and get some wins. I

kitekrazy
05-24-2007, 12:21 PM
OK Ill play. How many average pitchers has he turned into studs?

Then Kenny trades them before they go back to being duds.

IndianWhiteSox
05-26-2007, 04:59 AM
Contreras has had one stretch of about a year where he was a stud otherwise you have the same crazily inconsistent pitcher he was with the Yanks

Vazquez hasnt done ANYTHING he hasnt done before. Last years season wasnt even in his top 3 of his career

I might give you Thorton but 1st round pitcher with great stuff before he came he can hardly be considered an average.

Jenks antoher pitcher that had great stuff FYI angels didnt drop him because of his lack of talent they had character issues with him

Danks one of Texas top prospects that wasnt never really given a shot down there again not an average pitcher

Aardsma again GREAT Stuff the Cubs got tired of his inconsistencies and I hope it doesnt play out this way but lately has shown flashes of those inconsistencies

So again show me the AVERAGE pitcher he has turned into a stud?

No you're right they were all Cy Youngs reincarnated before they came to the SOX.:rolleyes:

You should just be one of those guys who think that 2005 shouldn't count and that just being over .500 is good enough. With your line of thinking, there should be no coaches, and everyone is a hall of fame player to begin with.

Jose Contreras stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/contrjo01.shtml

Notice the increase in IP and K and decrease in BB and ERA.

PS- What is your level of Average?

Let me guess, Danny Wright?
:tongue:

fuzzy_patters
05-26-2007, 10:51 AM
Contreras has had one stretch of about a year where he was a stud otherwise you have the same crazily inconsistent pitcher he was with the Yanks

Vazquez hasnt done ANYTHING he hasnt done before. Last years season wasnt even in his top 3 of his career

I might give you Thorton but 1st round pitcher with great stuff before he came he can hardly be considered an average.

Jenks antoher pitcher that had great stuff FYI angels didnt drop him because of his lack of talent they had character issues with him

Danks one of Texas top prospects that wasnt never really given a shot down there again not an average pitcher

Aardsma again GREAT Stuff the Cubs got tired of his inconsistencies and I hope it doesnt play out this way but lately has shown flashes of those inconsistencies

So again show me the AVERAGE pitcher he has turned into a stud?

Esteban Loaiza. He was pitching in the Mexican League when the Sox aquired him, and it looked like his career was over. Under Cooper he won 20 games. He had a career high win total by the All-Star break. He went back to mediocrity after the Sox traded him away.

IndianWhiteSox
05-26-2007, 11:18 AM
Esteban Loaiza. He was pitching in the Mexican League when the Sox aquired him, and it looked like his career was over. Under Cooper he won 20 games. He had a career high win total by the All-Star break. He went back to mediocrity after the Sox traded him away.

Thank you!

:cool::gulp::gulp::supernana::)

balke
05-26-2007, 11:26 AM
You can't say a pitching coach is going to "Turn an average pitcher into a great pitcher". That just doesn't happen. He can only keep the guys up enough to fulfill their potential and pitch like they are capable. Coops done that with every pitcher that's came through here. 2005 is really all you need to reference.

Look at Cotts who is such a hassle for the Cubs he's in the minors on a team with a bad bullpen. Look at Garland who's grown through controversy early in his career with the Sox to be the winningest pitcher in baseball.

Contreras isn't Cy young but he's a lot better than he was with the Yankees. "Oh bah its cause his family moved". That's not true, Coop worked with the guy intensely with his delivery, and this team made him feel comfortable. The Sox were the laughing stock of east coast baseball for taking Contreras then. The Yankees were overjoyed to see him go... til they saw he can be lights out when he's on, and he was pitching The White Sox to victories in the Playoffs.

I look at Walker's record and see great hitters in the minors come up and struggle, I see a team that every season seems to have about 2 guys go into a DEEP funk. I also see his big project Konerko struggle every season of his career, except last season, and then he's back to struggling again (Yes he'll pull out of it, but this isn't the first time he's disappeared for 2 months of the season). And I just say that, because Hawk always talks about how his mechanics are what the others on this team are modeling after.

These hitters can bop, but the best hitters here are coming from years in a different organization. It seems like guys who came here with great averages are losing those #'s and hitting more HR's.

I forgot to add he's an all-star pitching coach, and his pitchers have an UNREAL health history. 200 IP is a requirement if you pitch for the White Sox.

dickallen15
05-26-2007, 11:33 AM
Esteban Loaiza. He was pitching in the Mexican League when the Sox aquired him, and it looked like his career was over. Under Cooper he won 20 games. He had a career high win total by the All-Star break. He went back to mediocrity after the Sox traded him away.
He wasn't pitching in the Mexican League. He was with Toronto, and had just started to develop the cutter that made him more effective. Cooper did help him along in 2003, but when EL lost a little velocity in 2004 he became mediocre again while wearing a White Sox uniform. He was traded for Contreras. EL was brutal with the Yankees, but pitched decently with Washington IIRC and signed a nice contract with Oakland, where he's had mixed results. He's presently on the DL.

jabrch
05-26-2007, 02:29 PM
I don't care to argue the semantics of "mediocre" pitcher and "stud" and I don't care to argue about the feasibility or frquency of that occurring.

I will say this - there are very few pitching coaches in baseball who have been more effective than Cooper has been here.

MRM
05-26-2007, 07:45 PM
I don't care to argue the semantics of "mediocre" pitcher and "stud" and I don't care to argue about the feasibility or frquency of that occurring.

I will say this - there are very few pitching coaches in baseball who have been more effective than Cooper has been here.

Yep. The name Leo Mazzone comes immediately to mind...Until he went to Baltimore, that is...

MRM
05-26-2007, 08:24 PM
In late '06 when Paulie got his extension, when everyone was saying he took less money to stay home; I thought the Sox actually overpaid.... Other first basemen with like HR, RBI and AVG totals... and like paychecks... walk an additional 30-60 times a year and have much higher on base percentages.

Is that right? Let's start out by saying it wasn't "late '06" When Paulie got his extension but, rather, was before the start of the '06 season. How many 1st basemen walked 111-141 times in '05? How many had a "much higher" OBP than .375?

Not being one to ask questions I don't know the answer to, lets take a look, shall we?

As 1st baseman with similar HR/RBI totals....only Albert Pujols, Richie Sexon, and Derek Lee drew more Walks than Konerko in 05. Which one had 30-60 more? Well... Pujols drew 97 to Konerkos 81. If 16 = 30-60 in your world, well, I feel sorry for your math teacher. Lee drew 85 and Sexon 89. Lets not forget that those two were basically the only power hitters in their respective offenses that year, thus drew a higher % of intentional walks.

Not sure what you call "much higher OBP"

Pujols was .430. Lee was .418. Konerko at .375. Sexon was .369.

Now. Would I take Pujols over Konerko? Only a fool wouldn't take Pujols over virtually any other player in the game. Lee? That's a push, IMO. Sexon? ROFL, NOT A CHANCE. So who, exactly, are you referring to with this claim of 30-60 more walks and "much higher" OBP?

The question is, exactly WHO would you have replaced Paulies stats with if they didn't re-sign him? I'm pretty sure Pujols and Lee weren't available.

jabrch
05-26-2007, 08:40 PM
Yep. The name Leo Mazzone comes immediately to mind...Until he went to Baltimore, that is...

ONE...

Dave Duncan

TWO...

That is very few. There aren't many others close.

MRM
05-26-2007, 08:42 PM
Thank you!

:cool::gulp::gulp::supernana::)

You are thanking him for posting inaccurate information in your defense?

Loaiza was most certainly NOT pitching in the Mexican league the year before the Sox acquired him. Wrong border. He was pitching for the Toronto Blue Jays. You may have heard of them as they pounded the Sox in a playoff series once upon a time.

Loaiza had his career year with the Sox in '03 and the Sox were smart enough to dump him before the trade deadline when his ERA nearly doubled a year later...was THAT Coopers plan, too?

MRM
05-26-2007, 08:43 PM
ONE...

Dave Duncan

TWO...

That is very few. There aren't many others close.

You completely missed my point in bringing up Mazzone.

jabrch
05-26-2007, 09:02 PM
You completely missed my point in bringing up Mazzone.

No - I got it - he is only as good as his pitchers - but at the same time Mazzone is recognized for his excellence and he has done good work in Balt with what little talent he has.

MRM
05-26-2007, 10:25 PM
No - I got it - he is only as good as his pitchers - but at the same time Mazzone is recognized for his excellence and he has done good work in Balt with what little talent he has.

I would think the Baltimore front office would disagree with your assessment of "what little talent he has". They did spend some $45mil on their (completely useless) bullpen in the offseason. The "talent" is obviously there, it is just underachieving what it did BEFORE he got ahold of them. In fact, that whole coaching staff is in danger of losing their jobs because the talent isn't performing to expectations.

It's pretty easy to look like a genius with Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine as your starters :D:. Ditto when you have Buherle, Garland, Garcia, and Contreras all hitting on all cylinders as the Sox did in '05. MB, Freddie, Vazquez, and Contreras weren't so good the 2nd half of last year...was it just an off 1/2 year for the pitching coaches?

Let me put it another way. Where were the people calling for Walkers head last year when the Sox were among the top 2 hitting teams in all of baseball for most of the season? Half the people in this forum want to fire him, now.

Coaches, like managers, get way too much credit and way too much blame at the MLB level. There is a reason Konerko and Vaquez pay more in taxes than Cooper and Walker make. If Coop or Walk were the key, THEY would be the guys with the multi-million $ contracts.

IndianWhiteSox
05-26-2007, 10:28 PM
I would think the Baltimore front office would disagree with your assessment of "what little talent he has". They did spend some $45mil on their (completely useless) bullpen in the offseason. The "talent" is obviously there, it is just underachieving what it did BEFORE he got ahold of them. In fact, that whole coaching staff is in danger of losing their jobs because the talent isn't performing to expectations.

It's pretty easy to look like a genius with Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine as your starters :D:. Ditto when you have Buherle, Garland, Garcia, and Contreras all hitting on all cylinders as the Sox did in '05. MB, Freddie, Vazquez, and Contreras weren't so good the 2nd half of last year...was it just an off 1/2 year for the pitching coaches?

Let me put it another way. Where were the people calling for Walkers head last year when the Sox were among the top 2 hitting teams in all of baseball for most of the season? Half the people in this forum want to fire him, now.

Coaches, like managers, get way too much credit and way too much blame at the MLB level. There is a reason Konerko and Vaquez pay more in taxes than Cooper and Walker make. If Coop or Walk were the key, THEY would be the guys with the multi-million $ contracts.

But the thing is, most of the guys in the everyday lineup WERE NOT brought up in the Sox organization. So it only made sense the Walker was just riding the coat tails on their success.

MRM
05-26-2007, 10:55 PM
But the thing is, most of the guys in the everyday lineup WERE NOT brought up in the Sox organization. So it only made sense the Walker was just riding the coat tails on their success.

Not exactly sure what your point is. Most of the current lineup wasn't brought up in the Sox organization. In fact, most are still here from the '05 season. So are you implying they are getting worse BECAUSE of Walker? Is your claim that Walk somehow has adversely affected Konerko, AJ, Iguchi, Pods, Dye, and Uribe? Most of those guys had better offensive seasons last year than they did in the championship year. Crede, who is the lone regular who DID come up through the Sox system had far and away his best offensive season last year. And It's Walkers second season with Thome, shouldn't we be seeing the signs of how he's screwing with him, too?

Konerko was quoted yesterday saying "Walk is the best hitting coach I've ever had". Pretty high praise, don't ya think? Paulie has had a few of them, to be sure.

Here's my thought. Walker came up under Charlie Lau and Walt Wriniak. The two best hitting coaches in Sox history. Last year was easily the best offensive season in Sox history. All of this being fact, I'm not willing to kick the guy to the curb over a poor month and a half of hitting from a veteran team. How much "coaching" do you think Paul Konerko or Jermaine Dye need, anyway? Unless he has a way to fix Pods and Thomes injury problems, Uribes seemingly never ending personal/family issues, etc. I don't know what exactly you think he should be doing.

IndianWhiteSox
05-27-2007, 05:38 AM
You are thanking him for posting inaccurate information in your defense?

Loaiza was most certainly NOT pitching in the Mexican league the year before the Sox acquired him. Wrong border. He was pitching for the Toronto Blue Jays. You may have heard of them as they pounded the Sox in a playoff series once upon a time.

Loaiza had his career year with the Sox in '03 and the Sox were smart enough to dump him before the trade deadline when his ERA nearly doubled a year later...was THAT Coopers plan, too?

Fair enough, but the point is that, he still was damaged goods after Toronto cut their losses with the guy.

By the way, really that was Toronto? I thought that was the Royals.
:tongue:

IndianWhiteSox
05-27-2007, 05:43 AM
Not exactly sure what your point is. Most of the current lineup wasn't brought up in the Sox organization. In fact, most are still here from the '05 season. So are you implying they are getting worse BECAUSE of Walker? Is your claim that Walk somehow has adversely affected Konerko, AJ, Iguchi, Pods, Dye, and Uribe? Most of those guys had better offensive seasons last year than they did in the championship year. Crede, who is the lone regular who DID come up through the Sox system had far and away his best offensive season last year. And It's Walkers second season with Thome, shouldn't we be seeing the signs of how he's screwing with him, too?

Konerko was quoted yesterday saying "Walk is the best hitting coach I've ever had". Pretty high praise, don't ya think? Paulie has had a few of them, to be sure.

Here's my thought. Walker came up under Charlie Lau and Walt Wriniak. The two best hitting coaches in Sox history. Last year was easily the best offensive season in Sox history. All of this being fact, I'm not willing to kick the guy to the curb over a poor month and a half of hitting from a veteran team. How much "coaching" do you think Paul Konerko or Jermaine Dye need, anyway? Unless he has a way to fix Pods and Thomes injury problems, Uribes seemingly never ending personal/family issues, etc. I don't know what exactly you think he should be doing.

He also said that Royce "The Choice" Clayton was the best SS he's ever played with. So that must mean something right?
:tongue:

But anyway, the point is that a few guys like AJP were much better contact hitters before he came to the Sox and now that's sort of changed. Listen, I'm not going to sit here and say that he's making things worse. All I'm saying is that his approach to those hitters aren't making things better either and thats why I started this thread to begin with.

If you want to be technical, Dave Wannstedt must be a good head coach because he came under Jimmy Johnson right?
:rolleyes:

fuzzy_patters
05-27-2007, 10:19 AM
You are thanking him for posting inaccurate information in your defense?

Loaiza was most certainly NOT pitching in the Mexican league the year before the Sox acquired him. Wrong border. He was pitching for the Toronto Blue Jays. You may have heard of them as they pounded the Sox in a playoff series once upon a time.

Loaiza had his career year with the Sox in '03 and the Sox were smart enough to dump him before the trade deadline when his ERA nearly doubled a year later...was THAT Coopers plan, too?

He was most definitely pitching in the Mexican League when the Sox aquired him. His contract in Toronto ran out and nobody wanted him. He was pitching in Mexico when the Sox signed he and another pitcher (Felix Heredia?) during spring training as a nonroster invitee.

balke
05-27-2007, 12:05 PM
He was most definitely pitching in the Mexican League when the Sox aquired him. His contract in Toronto ran out and nobody wanted him. He was pitching in Mexico when the Sox signed he and another pitcher (Felix Heredia?) during spring training as a nonroster invitee.

This is what I remember. He developed that cutter in the Mexican League, and the White Sox had the acquisition of the year on their hands. Everyone in the league was baffled at why this guy all of a sudden was Cy Young. He was one win at the end of the season from being Cy Young IMO.

Paulwny
05-27-2007, 04:43 PM
I wish Coop could work some of his "magic" on some of the bull pen guys. Coop is good, but you're only as good as the material you have to work with.

TheCommander
05-27-2007, 05:22 PM
Here's my thought. Walker came up under Charlie Lau and Walt Wriniak.

Walt Hriniak :wink:

soxfan13
05-29-2007, 10:10 AM
I wish Coop could work some of his "magic" on some of the bull pen guys. Coop is good, but you're only as good as the material you have to work with.

That is exactly what I am trying to point out. Coop is good dont get me wrong but he is consistently handed talented pitchers to work with. They in the most part have great stuff and just need to be tinkered with. Again Indianwhitesoxfan you still have not shown me anything to prove your point that Cooper should be in the Hall of Fame. Also I do not think we dont need coaches ,if you look though this thread I am defending Walker saying dont go sour on him because of a team slump and that AGAIN coaches just get too much credit and too much blame for things. There has to be a middle ground. You are the same type of person that would immediatley turn on Cooper if this pitching staff went south (and if you are paying attention the bullpen is RIGHT now)

IndianWhiteSox
05-29-2007, 12:56 PM
That is exactly what I am trying to point out. Coop is good dont get me wrong but he is consistently handed talented pitchers to work with. They in the most part have great stuff and just need to be tinkered with. Again Indianwhitesoxfan you still have not shown me anything to prove your point that Cooper should be in the Hall of Fame. Also I do not think we dont need coaches ,if you look though this thread I am defending Walker saying dont go sour on him because of a team slump and that AGAIN coaches just get too much credit and too much blame for things. There has to be a middle ground. You are the same type of person that would immediatley turn on Cooper if this pitching staff went south (and if you are paying attention the bullpen is RIGHT now)

Nobody was saying that he should be a first ballot hall of famer. All I'm saying is that Coop has done more than Walker to earn some leeway and history would prove that to be right despite the contrary.

IndianWhiteSox
06-03-2007, 04:24 PM
Just when you think this team is out of the woods. It's not!

DAMN YOU WALKER!
:angry::angry::angry:

NSSoxFan
06-03-2007, 04:29 PM
I never thought this until today. The Sox have to fire him.

IndianWhiteSox
06-03-2007, 04:30 PM
I never thought this until today. The Sox have to fire him.

Finally you have seen the light.
:cool:

Cheers my friend, Cheers!
:gulp::gulp:

IndianWhiteSox
06-03-2007, 04:42 PM
:tomatoaward

:tomatoaward

UserNameBlank
06-03-2007, 05:08 PM
I supported firing Ozzie and Greg Walker at first, but lately I've come to think that it really doesn't matter anymore. This team is terrible. It's not just the hitting, or the pitching, or the stupid baseball, or the bad decisions, or injuries, weather, division, etc. It is everything. This team sucks. It can't overcome adversity, it can't build and maintain momentum, it is very one dimensional and very tiring.

Break the whole damn thing up. Keep all the coaches for all I care. Fire them all. Whatever. Hire Mickey Mouse. Who gives a ****? Just tear this team apart.

Paulwny
06-03-2007, 05:14 PM
I supported firing Ozzie and Greg Walker at first, but lately I've come to think that it really doesn't matter anymore. This team is terrible. It's not just the hitting, or the pitching, or the stupid baseball, or the bad decisions, or injuries, weather, division, etc. It is everything. This team sucks. It can't overcome adversity, it can't build and maintain momentum, it is very one dimensional and very tiring.


YEP, I guess we all should have paid more attention to the baseball "experts" who picked the sox to finish 4th at the beginning of the season instead of laughing at them.
We are on a snowball headed for hell.

JB98
06-03-2007, 05:37 PM
Finally you have seen the light.
:cool:

Cheers my friend, Cheers!
:gulp::gulp:

Something has to change. A seven game road trip: 1-for-64 against relief pitchers. That isn't a coincidence or an accident. Somewhere, the preparation is lacking.

ilsox7
06-03-2007, 05:38 PM
Something has to change. A seven game road trip: 1-for-64 against relief pitchers. That isn't a coincidence or an accident. Somewhere, the preparation is lacking.

Even if it's not, they are getting to the point where, sadly, loyalty to employees may have to be thrown out the window. Someone has to be held accountable for what is going on. I don't see KW stepping down (nor should he), but changes need to be made. This team is at a critical juncture and must act now. The season can still be saved, but it's going to take a LOT of work.

JB98
06-03-2007, 05:43 PM
Even if it's not, they are getting to the point where, sadly, loyalty to employees may have to be thrown out the window. Someone has to be held accountable for what is going on. I don't see KW stepping down (nor should he), but changes need to be made. This team is at a critical juncture and must act now. The season can still be saved, but it's going to take a LOT of work.

Tomorrow, I think I'd fire Walker. I'd also send MacDougal, Aardsma and Masset to Charlotte. Call up Bukvich, Floyd and Vasquez. None of that will fix the problem over the long term, IMHO, but a message has to be sent that what is happening here is completely unacceptable. Threats in the paper are only that until action is taken. Everyone is accountable, including veteran players and tenured coaches. Those who are not doing their jobs must be replaced, no matter who they are. IMO, we are now in crisis stage.

UserNameBlank
06-03-2007, 06:14 PM
Tomorrow, I think I'd fire Walker. I'd also send MacDougal, Aardsma and Masset to Charlotte. Call up Bukvich, Floyd and Vasquez. None of that will fix the problem over the long term, IMHO, but a message has to be sent that what is happening here is completely unacceptable. Threats in the paper are only that until action is taken. Everyone is accountable, including veteran players and tenured coaches. Those who are not doing their jobs must be replaced, no matter who they are. IMO, we are now in crisis stage.
That could all work, at least as far as sending a message, but I wouldn't waste the option on Floyd just yet. If a starter is dealt and someone wants to give him a shot in the rotation that is one thing, but he's had confidence issues his whole career and bringing in a guy who is wild in an attempt to spot-patch a fatal leak can only hurt him further.

ilsox7
06-03-2007, 06:17 PM
Tomorrow, I think I'd fire Walker. I'd also send MacDougal, Aardsma and Masset to Charlotte. Call up Bukvich, Floyd and Vasquez. None of that will fix the problem over the long term, IMHO, but a message has to be sent that what is happening here is completely unacceptable. Threats in the paper are only that until action is taken. Everyone is accountable, including veteran players and tenured coaches. Those who are not doing their jobs must be replaced, no matter who they are. IMO, we are now in crisis stage.

I think most, if not all of these ideas are good. Maybe firing Walker would guilt guys like Crede and Konerko into hitting better. I dunno. I am pretty much at a loss as to what do do about guys like that.

oeo
06-03-2007, 06:25 PM
Contreras has had one stretch of about a year where he was a stud otherwise you have the same crazily inconsistent pitcher he was with the Yanks

Contreras wasn't inconsistent, he was terrible...consistently terrible.

I might give you Thorton but 1st round pitcher with great stuff before he came he can hardly be considered an average.You're right, he was below average. We acquired for Joe Borchard, that's how bad he was.

Danks one of Texas top prospects that wasnt never really given a shot down there again not an average pitcherDanks never had great minor league numbers, so you have attribute his early success to something.

Aardsma again GREAT Stuff the Cubs got tired of his inconsistencies and I hope it doesnt play out this way but lately has shown flashes of those inconsistencies

So again show me the AVERAGE pitcher he has turned into a stud?You can't turn an average pitcher into a stud. You can turn under-performing pitchers into good ones and that's what Coop does. He's not a miracle worker. If you don't have the stuff to become a great big league pitcher, there's not a thing you can do.

Lukin13
06-03-2007, 06:53 PM
1-62 against mediocre bullpen pitching......


Even if he isn't part of the problem, he hasn't been part of the solution.

Fire Greg Walker.

TheOldRoman
06-03-2007, 06:57 PM
I supported firing Ozzie and Greg Walker at first, but lately I've come to think that it really doesn't matter anymore. This team is terrible. It's not just the hitting, or the pitching, or the stupid baseball, or the bad decisions, or injuries, weather, division, etc. It is everything. This team sucks. It can't overcome adversity, it can't build and maintain momentum, it is very one dimensional and very tiring.

Break the whole damn thing up. Keep all the coaches for all I care. Fire them all. Whatever. Hire Mickey Mouse. Who gives a ****? Just tear this team apart.
Yep, you nailed it. We are a terrible team because the weather has been bad.:rolleyes:

UserNameBlank
06-03-2007, 06:59 PM
Yep, you nailed it. We are a terrible team because the weather has been bad.:rolleyes:
That was our first excuse, remember? There are quite a few more by the way. I didn't feel like listing them all.

TheOldRoman
06-03-2007, 07:06 PM
That was our first excuse, remember? There are quite a few more by the way. I didn't feel like listing them all.
Well, we have played through terrible weather, through the injuries, through the bad decisions, through the best division in baseball, while playing ****ty ball ourselves, and we are 2 games under .500, and 5 games out of the playoffs.
You can try to make yourself sound smart by screaming this team is crap all you want, but that doesn't make it the case. Beating your chest and saying "as I was saying all along, this team is terrible" because they are going through their worst stretch in years doesn't make you look smart or rational. If you think this is the best the Sox will play this year, you need to be placed in a padded room.

UserNameBlank
06-03-2007, 07:12 PM
Well, we have played through terrible weather, through the injuries, through the bad decisions, through the best division in baseball, while playing ****ty ball ourselves, and we are 2 games under .500, and 5 games out of the playoffs.
You can try to make yourself sound smart by screaming this team is crap all you want, but that doesn't make it the case. Beating your chest and saying "as I was saying all along, this team is terrible" because they are going through their worst stretch in years doesn't make you look smart or rational. If you think this is the best the Sox will play this year, you need to be placed in a padded room.
http://www.greatdreams.com/eeyore/pink_elephant.gif
You don't see this, do you?

JB98
06-04-2007, 12:33 AM
That could all work, at least as far as sending a message, but I wouldn't waste the option on Floyd just yet. If a starter is dealt and someone wants to give him a shot in the rotation that is one thing, but he's had confidence issues his whole career and bringing in a guy who is wild in an attempt to spot-patch a fatal leak can only hurt him further.

I understand your point about Floyd, and I think it's valid. But I have two counterpoints. First off, we can't bring both Prinz and Bukvich unless we drop someone else off the 40-man. I'm not sure that's feasible. We can only take one of the two. I'd probably choose Bukvich. We need two other guys who are already on the 40-man. Floyd and Vasquez qualify, and Floyd could fill Masset's spot as the long reliever. Secondly, I'm not concerned about wasting the option year on Floyd because if he isn't ready to pitch a full year in the bigs in 2008, he's probably a bust anyway. He's already failed in Philly. The clock is ticking on his career. I'd actually be more worried about wasting an option on Vasquez than Floyd.

IndianWhiteSox
06-04-2007, 10:07 AM
I understand your point about Floyd, and I think it's valid. But I have two counterpoints. First off, we can't bring both Prinz and Bukvich unless we drop someone else off the 40-man. I'm not sure that's feasible. We can only take one of the two. I'd probably choose Bukvich. We need two other guys who are already on the 40-man. Floyd and Vasquez qualify, and Floyd could fill Masset's spot as the long reliever. Secondly, I'm not concerned about wasting the option year on Floyd because if he isn't ready to pitch a full year in the bigs in 2008, he's probably a bust anyway. He's already failed in Philly. The clock is ticking on his career. I'd actually be more worried about wasting an option on Vasquez than Floyd.

He's only pitched a total of less than 1.50 seasons in the majors. What the hell can make anyone think he's already a bust and a loser?

But back to my favorite hitting coach of all time, he deserves to get the axe as soon as possible. Hopefully, next week at this time, the job of hitting coach will belong to a different person.

balke
06-04-2007, 10:19 AM
He's only pitched a total of less than 1.50 seasons in the majors. What the hell can make anyone think he's already a bust and a loser?

But back to my favorite hitting coach of all time, he deserves to get the axe as soon as possible. Hopefully, next week at this time, the job of hitting coach will belong to a different person.



What would really burn me up is if the Sox trade Crede, and he magically starts hitting .300 for a different ball club. He's the one player I always look at baffled by his low avg. For him .240 might not be a mirage, it could be real. That's just sad.

UserNameBlank
06-04-2007, 11:41 AM
He's only pitched a total of less than 1.50 seasons in the majors. What the hell can make anyone think he's already a bust and a loser?

But back to my favorite hitting coach of all time, he deserves to get the axe as soon as possible. Hopefully, next week at this time, the job of hitting coach will belong to a different person.
You're in India. You probably didn't get to see Mr. Floyd in ST, did you?

There they were in ST. Gavin Floyd, John Danks, Lance Broadway, Heath Phillips, Charlie Haeger, Gio Gonzalez, and Adam Russel. Guess which 6 of the 7 pitchers went after hitters? Guess which one didn't?

Everyone battled with control here and there, or everywhere in Floyd's case, but I've never seen a pitching prospect with major league experience look as lost out there as Gavin did. He was basically being handed the job as the Sox wanted Danks to spend some more time in Triple A. Ozzie wanted to whittle down his choices for 5th starter as soon as he could, but he had no chance because Gavin's total lack of confidence and flaky mound presence kept everyone else who wanted a shot in the mix.

I'd give Mike Jackson a call before I'd bring Gavin up to the Sox pen. Whatever his issues are, I'm sure he needs some work. Maybe he needs to have a few beers before toeing the rubber to settle down those nerves. Maybe he needs to watch a couple Arnold Schwarzenegger slaughter flicks before warming up to get a bit of an edge. Who knows? But I sure see why Philly gave him up.

IndianWhiteSox
06-04-2007, 12:22 PM
I understand your point about Floyd, and I think it's valid. But I have two counterpoints. First off, we can't bring both Prinz and Bukvich unless we drop someone else off the 40-man. I'm not sure that's feasible. We can only take one of the two. I'd probably choose Bukvich. We need two other guys who are already on the 40-man. Floyd and Vasquez qualify, and Floyd could fill Masset's spot as the long reliever. Secondly, I'm not concerned about wasting the option year on Floyd because if he isn't ready to pitch a full year in the bigs in 2008, he's probably a bust anyway. He's already failed in Philly. The clock is ticking on his career. I'd actually be more worried about wasting an option on Vasquez than Floyd.

You're in India. You probably didn't get to see Mr. Floyd in ST, did you?

There they were in ST. Gavin Floyd, John Danks, Lance Broadway, Heath Phillips, Charlie Haeger, Gio Gonzalez, and Adam Russel. Guess which 6 of the 7 pitchers went after hitters? Guess which one didn't?

Everyone battled with control here and there, or everywhere in Floyd's case, but I've never seen a pitching prospect with major league experience look as lost out there as Gavin did. He was basically being handed the job as the Sox wanted Danks to spend some more time in Triple A. Ozzie wanted to whittle down his choices for 5th starter as soon as he could, but he had no chance because Gavin's total lack of confidence and flaky mound presence kept everyone else who wanted a shot in the mix.

I'd give Mike Jackson a call before I'd bring Gavin up to the Sox pen. Whatever his issues are, I'm sure he needs some work. Maybe he needs to have a few beers before toeing the rubber to settle down those nerves. Maybe he needs to watch a couple Arnold Schwarzenegger slaughter flicks before warming up to get a bit of an edge. Who knows? But I sure see why Philly gave him up.

Hold on there UserNameBlank, all I said was that Floyd can still be a GREAT if not GOOD pitcher for the Sox in THE FUTURE and that's still the truth. I'm not saying bring him up this year, because he seems to be lacking that killer instinct I was hearing about during spring training and yes, I realize I'm a fool for thinking that he would win the #5 spot over Danks. I just think that you can't close the chapter on Floyd just yet.

UserNameBlank
06-04-2007, 01:03 PM
Hold on there UserNameBlank, all I said was that Floyd can still be a GREAT if not GOOD pitcher for the Sox in THE FUTURE and that's still the truth. I'm not saying bring him up this year, because he seems to be lacking that killer instinct I was hearing about during spring training and yes, I realize I'm a fool for thinking that he would win the #5 spot over Danks. I just think that you can't close the chapter on Floyd just yet.
I agree with you. He does still have a chance.

I was just answering your question about what would make someone think he's a bust.

JB98
06-04-2007, 01:19 PM
He's only pitched a total of less than 1.50 seasons in the majors. What the hell can make anyone think he's already a bust and a loser?

But back to my favorite hitting coach of all time, he deserves to get the axe as soon as possible. Hopefully, next week at this time, the job of hitting coach will belong to a different person.

I'm not saying Floyd is a bust and a loser. I'm saying he's already blown one opportunity in Philadelphia, and he's done little to distinguish himself since he joined the Sox organization. He's going to get another opportunity in the bigs at some point, and when he does, he better capitalize. If he doesn't, he might not get another chance.

IndianWhiteSox
06-04-2007, 01:25 PM
I'm not saying Floyd is a bust and a loser. I'm saying he's already blown one opportunity in Philadelphia, and he's done little to distinguish himself since he joined the Sox organization. He's going to get another opportunity in the bigs at some point, and when he does, he better capitalize. If he doesn't, he might not get another chance.

I agree with you. He does still have a chance.

I was just answering your question about what would make someone think he's a bust.

Fair enough, I see what you guys are saying now.
:cool:

Can we all just agree that Walker is the guy who should get canned?

Nellie_Fox
06-04-2007, 04:29 PM
Can we all just agree that Walker is the guy who should get canned?No, I don't think we can all agree on anything.

Sox Surveyor
06-04-2007, 04:37 PM
You need to move up top with Sun Trick. The man is an excellent beer vendor. Heather at the Beers of the World stand in the lower tank by 155 or so does a good job as well. Skotty's buddy, Bobby, is an excellent beer man as well.

The Beer Dude is the only wendor anyoine should buy from !!!!!

CLR01
06-04-2007, 04:57 PM
That could all work, at least as far as sending a message, but I wouldn't waste the option on Floyd just yet.

The option was burned when they sent him down to start the year in AAA. They can call him up and send him down as much as they want this year, next year he needs to break camp on the 25 man roster or he will need to clear waivers.

IndianWhiteSox
06-06-2007, 07:36 AM
Oh well, maybe the Sox don't want to make the playoffs, let alone win the world series this year. I mean, it's not like giving a team in the pants would help or anything.

If the Sox really care about winning then Walker has to go.

UserNameBlank
06-06-2007, 08:57 AM
The option was burned when they sent him down to start the year in AAA. They can call him up and send him down as much as they want this year, next year he needs to break camp on the 25 man roster or he will need to clear waivers.
Uh-oh.

MetroPD
06-07-2007, 09:59 PM
Well, we have played through terrible weather, through the injuries, through the bad decisions, through the best division in baseball, while playing ****ty ball ourselves, and we are 2 games under .500, and 5 games out of the playoffs.
You can try to make yourself sound smart by screaming this team is crap all you want, but that doesn't make it the case. Beating your chest and saying "as I was saying all along, this team is terrible" because they are going through their worst stretch in years doesn't make you look smart or rational. If you think this is the best the Sox will play this year, you need to be placed in a padded room.
If you have much more hope for this years Sox, then you should heed your own advice. We've seen and heard so many excuses, gripes, and complaints and yet with what players we are fielding, we shouldn't be this bad.

cleanwsox
06-08-2007, 12:07 AM
1.) Worst Avg. in the league by 10 points.
2.) Lowest amount of runs scored.
3.) Least amount of hits in the majors... 2nd to last has 60 more hits than the Sox. :o:
4.) Least amount of doubles in the majors, 2nd to last has 22 more than the Sox. :o:
5.) Least amount of triples
6.) 2nd to last in RBI's
7.) Lowest OBP
8.) 2nd to last in Slugging.



Good job Greg!

IndianWhiteSox
06-08-2007, 11:50 AM
1.) Worst Avg. in the league by 10 points.
2.) Lowest amount of runs scored.
3.) Least amount of hits in the majors... 2nd to last has 60 more hits than the Sox. :o:
4.) Least amount of doubles in the majors, 2nd to last has 22 more than the Sox. :o:
5.) Least amount of triples
6.) 2nd to last in RBI's
7.) Lowest OBP
8.) 2nd to last in Slugging.



Good job Greg!

:o::o:

But but but, coaches aren't really useful at the major league level. It's always about the players.

UserNameBlank
06-08-2007, 11:52 AM
:o::o:

But but but, coaches aren't really useful at the major league level. It's always about the players.
What about we do both and can the players and the hitting coach?

IndianWhiteSox
06-08-2007, 11:55 AM
What about we do both and can the players and the hitting coach?

Well you yourself, said that they should raise the white flag anyway. Personally, I think the Sox need to make a trade or so to give this team a spark. It almost worked for the Sox with R. Alomar in 2003. I really think that if a guy like Vizquel was brought on to the Sox, then maybe, he could rejuvenate Thome as well with them being the ex-Indians. Thus leading us to the division title.

Oh, well just a wish.

UserNameBlank
06-08-2007, 12:21 PM
Well you yourself, said that they should raise the white flag anyway. Personally, I think the Sox need to make a trade or so to give this team a spark. It almost worked for the Sox with R. Alomar in 2003. I really think that if a guy like Vizquel was brought on to the Sox, then maybe, he could rejuvenate Thome as well with them being the ex-Indians. Thus leading us to the division title.

Oh, well just a wish.
If a team fires its hitting coach, it happens because the hitters aren't doing well. Usually there is a new coach brought in with a different philosophy or process, because there would be no reason to fire Greg Walker just to bring back another Greg Walker, so whoever replaces the old coach is going to have some serious work to do. That stuff will take time. It's not as if it will be like "new hitting coach, bam, results." How long will it take? Who knows, but in the mean time I doubt Omar Vizquel is enough to carry the offense, although I do agree that a better option at the top of the lineup would help the middle of the order. I just don't think Omar is the guy here.

IndianWhiteSox
06-08-2007, 12:28 PM
If a team fires its hitting coach, it happens because the hitters aren't doing well. Usually there is a new coach brought in with a different philosophy or process, because there would be no reason to fire Greg Walker just to bring back another Greg Walker, so whoever replaces the old coach is going to have some serious work to do. That stuff will take time. It's not as if it will be like "new hitting coach, bam, results." How long will it take? Who knows, but in the mean time I doubt Omar Vizquel is enough to carry the offense, although I do agree that a better option at the top of the lineup would help the middle of the order. I just don't think Omar is the guy here.

That might be true, but it has happened before and been relatively successful. Prime example is the Toon firing Eddie Murray and going on an insane run to almost overtake the Sox.

roadrunner
06-08-2007, 12:28 PM
5.) Least amount of triples



I saw that Granderson had two triples last night so I immediately looked it up and of course - we have two as a team.

soxfan13
06-08-2007, 02:19 PM
:o::o:

But but but, coaches aren't really useful at the major league level. It's always about the players.

Ah what a way to misconstrue what I said.

IndianWhiteSox
06-09-2007, 08:46 AM
I saw that Granderson had two triples last night so I immediately looked it up and of course - we have two as a team.

But But this is an Ozzieball team, with speed, pitching, defense and fundamentals.
:angry:

PaleHoseGeorge
06-09-2007, 10:35 AM
1.) Worst Avg. in the league by 10 points.
2.) Lowest amount of runs scored.
3.) Least amount of hits in the majors... 2nd to last has 60 more hits than the Sox. :o:
4.) Least amount of doubles in the majors, 2nd to last has 22 more than the Sox. :o:
5.) Least amount of triples
6.) 2nd to last in RBI's
7.) Lowest OBP
8.) 2nd to last in Slugging.



Good job Greg!

Isn't there a little league game somewhere for you to be coaching?

kevin57
06-09-2007, 10:42 AM
I'm in favor of firing Walker. Yes, it's the batters who are supposed to hit the ball, but unless the "anti-firing" crowd advocate for a Marlins redo of the entire squad, I don't know what else to do.

Let's not forget that the Sox hitting lineup had prolonged slumps in '05 and '06. This is not a phenomenon limited to this year.

Even if it's not fair, someone's got to fall on the sword. If not Walker, folks, who?

dickallen15
06-09-2007, 10:52 AM
I saw that Granderson had two triples last night so I immediately looked it up and of course - we have two as a team.

So Thome, Konerko, AJ, Crede, Dye, these guys are supposed to hit more triples and if they don't its on the hitting coach? The problem with the Sox offense is the way its constructed. If the ball isn't flying out of the park, very few runs will be scored. They always have an average at best OBP guy leading off, no team speed, and guys that really don't bunt very well, or make enough contact to where you can hit and run and be reasonably sure its not just giving up an out and a baserunner because of a swing and a miss.

balke
06-09-2007, 12:46 PM
1.) Worst Avg. in the league by 10 points.
2.) Lowest amount of runs scored.
3.) Least amount of hits in the majors... 2nd to last has 60 more hits than the Sox. :o:
4.) Least amount of doubles in the majors, 2nd to last has 22 more than the Sox. :o:
5.) Least amount of triples
6.) 2nd to last in RBI's
7.) Lowest OBP
8.) 2nd to last in Slugging.



Good job Greg!


If our pitchers had those kind of stats with that kind of talent, Coop or Kenny would be gone in a heartbeat.

dickallen15
06-09-2007, 02:35 PM
I'm in favor of firing Walker. Yes, it's the batters who are supposed to hit the ball, but unless the "anti-firing" crowd advocate for a Marlins redo of the entire squad, I don't know what else to do.

Let's not forget that the Sox hitting lineup had prolonged slumps in '05 and '06. This is not a phenomenon limited to this year.

Even if it's not fair, someone's got to fall on the sword. If not Walker, folks, who?
How about Cooper getting the axe too? I read on this board what a dominating bullpen that KW put together last winter and it absolutely blows. If Walker must go, it only makes sense Cooper should be holding his hand out the door.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-09-2007, 02:49 PM
I'm in favor of everyone who is in favor of firing the coaches (Walker, Cooper, or otherwise) to be fired from their own job, too. I mean... if you aren't working at Microsoft and pulling down at least eight figures annually, you're the dead weight holding back your own company from being the biggest, best and most successful. **** You. Hit the road.

The logic some of you "Fire X" people employ isn't very different than what I wrote above.

dickallen15
06-09-2007, 02:51 PM
I'm in favor of everyone who is in favor of firing the coaches (Walker, Cooper, or otherwise) to be fired from their own job, too. I mean... if you aren't working at Microsoft and pulling down at least eight figures annually, you're the dead weight holding back your own company from being the biggest, best and most successful. **** You. Hit the road.

The logic some of you "Fire X" people employ isn't very different than what I wrote above.
I was being sarcastic. I need my job.

TDog
06-09-2007, 03:23 PM
I'm in favor of everyone who is in favor of firing the coaches (Walker, Cooper, or otherwise) to be fired from their own job, too. I mean... if you aren't working at Microsoft and pulling down at least eight figures annually, you're the dead weight holding back your own company from being the biggest, best and most successful. **** You. Hit the road.

The logic some of you "Fire X" people employ isn't very different than what I wrote above.

Good point.

How about the people who are posting on WSI from work about firing coaches or releasing players who aren't doing their jobs.

whitesoxfan
06-09-2007, 03:24 PM
1.) Worst Avg. in the league by 10 points.
2.) Lowest amount of runs scored.
3.) Least amount of hits in the majors... 2nd to last has 60 more hits than the Sox. :o:
4.) Least amount of doubles in the majors, 2nd to last has 22 more than the Sox. :o:
5.) Least amount of triples
6.) 2nd to last in RBI's
7.) Lowest OBP
8.) 2nd to last in Slugging.



Good job Greg!

That's pretty sickening.

UserNameBlank
06-09-2007, 06:01 PM
I'm in favor of everyone who is in favor of firing the coaches (Walker, Cooper, or otherwise) to be fired from their own job, too. I mean... if you aren't working at Microsoft and pulling down at least eight figures annually, you're the dead weight holding back your own company from being the biggest, best and most successful. **** You. Hit the road.

The logic some of you "Fire X" people employ isn't very different than what I wrote above.

How is a coach on a professional sports team different from any other managerial position in any other company? If one or two guys can't get the job done, they go. If everyone under a certain individual's leadership fails, whoever is most directly responsible for them goes.

I'm going to make a bad analogy here. Let's say you're the night shift manager at McDonald's. It's a pretty straight-forward job, and the only thing you really have to do is make sure your employees follow five simple rules:

1. Show up to work on time.
2. Don't do drugs.
3. Treat customers with respect.
4. Don't give out more than 2 ketchup packets to any customer ever because ketchup prices are skyrocketing and it's costing the company too much money.
5. Don't blare rap music in the general work area at any given time.

Now since it's McDonald's you don't exactly have the best workers. You try to correct their mistakes, discipline them, give them advice, pat them on the back when they do well, whatever. You do everything you can to make your employees into serviceable workers, but it just doesn't quite get through to them somehow.

Well, let's say one day when you're working in comes the big nasty District Manager in an unannounced visit. He stops by the drive-thru and finds one guy giving out two fistfuls of ketchup packets. Then he walks to the back and there's a prep cook in a do-rag flailing his arms around like a gangbanger while singing to "**** tha Police" by NWA. He turns around and spots an employee with a blue mohawk walking in late, not in dress code, laughing hysterically and reeking of pot. Then he puts a headset on just to see if it can get any worse and overhears the drive-thru kid telling some customer to "get bent."

Who is likely to be the first one canned in this scenario? The manager obviously, for letting this crap go on. It's not necessarily fair, because it's busy and the manager can't just send any of these guys home. Besides, he never hired these guys anyway, the store manager did. But he has to deal with it so he bans radios, tries to stress the limited availabilty of ketchup, focuses on manners, sobreity, everything, but these guys still keep finding a way to do what they want.

Again, it's a bad analogy but for what we know it could be applied to Walker. Maybe Greg is telling everyone the right thing. Maybe he's working individually with hitters much more than necessary. Maybe he's just talking to a brick wall with these guys. Maybe he simply doesn't have the right personnel. Who knows? It might not be fair, but that is the way it works. It's the way Tony Pena, Allan Trammel, Jim Leyland and other good managers and coaches got fired. If he is as good as the Sox say he is, he'll find a job in another organization.

Good point.

How about the people who are posting on WSI from work about firing coaches or releasing players who aren't doing their jobs.

You may have a point. If it's one or two employees not doing their jobs, fine. If it's the entire office who is browsing the web, the message from the top isn't getting through. Blame whoever is responsible for getting that message across.

Lukin13
06-15-2007, 09:50 PM
Bump

Mod edit: Do not "bump" threads. If it has died from lack of interest, let it die. If you have something worthwhile, start a new thread.

WhiteSox5187
06-15-2007, 09:51 PM
Firing Walker is not going to improve this team in any way shape or form but it will hold someone accountable. I disagreed with the idea at first, but now I'm changing my mind. Someone needs to go. Heads have to roll!

TDog
06-15-2007, 10:32 PM
Firing Walker is not going to improve this team in any way shape or form but it will hold someone accountable. I disagreed with the idea at first, but now I'm changing my mind. Someone needs to go. Heads have to roll!

You don't fire a manager or coaches as punishment. You make replacements to improve your team. Firing coaches wouldn't light a fire under the players on this team. Cloning Ted Williams to replace Walker wouldn't help this team as currently composed. Replacing the players, which will happen soon enough, will improve