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Chisox_cali
03-26-2002, 12:32 AM
I'm not really one to be the brunt of "board controversy" but I was seating hear minding my own buisness, counting the days until opening day getting pumped for my favorite time of year when I read Dan's latest column. I really don't appreciate having my hobby of watching and rooting for the Sox basically being torn to shreds and saying hey the team really has no future, the fans arent showing up,blah,blah, blah. I know our management blows and I really don't need it shoved in my face over and over and over again. The last God knows however many of Dan's columns have basically been the same to me: Blah Blah Blah Jerry Reinsdorf is a moron Blah Blah Blah The fans havent showed up since '94 Blah Blah Blah No one bought my book Blah Blah Blah this team won't win a World Series Blah Blah Blah No one bought my book Blah Blah Blah. In all seriousness why is he even writing columns here? From what I can peice together(So I could be wrong, and if I am please call me on it) his book is called Through Hope and Despair A Fan's Memory....... 1967-1997 which to me signifies that he isn't even currently a Sox fan and also the fact that in his Member profile under Current Favorite Sox Player he list NONE. How could you be a Sox fan today with out a favorite player?!?! Obviously he is a lot older than I am and has gone through a lot more bad times with this Sox team than I have and maybe I am just a stupid Optimistic Sox fan. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the occasional pessimistic column if they were all happy happy love columns we'd be just like the Flubs and NO ONE wants that. But I would rather read a column written by the best of both worlds(Pessimistic and Optisimtic) than a consistanly Pessimistic One that basically, In My Opinion, slaps you in the face foe liking and Rooting for the Chicago White Sox.


To quote Dennis Miller "But of course that's just my opinion I could be wrong"

Flame way if you must, but let me have my Rant and Opinions.

Chisox_cali
03-26-2002, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by DVG
EXCELLENT post, Cali! I said the same thing in another thread
(before I read this one) but you said it much, much better than
my Captain Queeg-like post. I commend you.

Thanks DVG. I just really had to get that off my chest it's been building for a while and it feels good to finally say something.

RedPinStripes
03-26-2002, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


Thanks DVG. I just really had to get that off my chest it's been building for a while and it feels good to finally say something.

Nothing wrong with speaking your mind. :)

CerberusWG
03-26-2002, 01:23 AM
To Dan's column:

Disclaimer yadda yadda!! (http://www.amp-f.com/charade/wdfd.jpg)

The past is the past. Not once do you mention our farm system, or ANYTHING positive.

Sheesh, way to be a pessimist.

RedPinStripes
03-26-2002, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by CerberusWG
To Dan's column:

Disclaimer yadda yadda!! (http://www.amp-f.com/charade/wdfd.jpg)

The past is the past. Not once do you mention our farm system, or ANYTHING positive.

Sheesh, way to be a pessimist.

I'll be the ref. :D:


:millslane

CerberusWG
03-26-2002, 01:27 AM
Hey, I have to break that pic out sometimes!

RedPinStripes
03-26-2002, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by CerberusWG
Hey, I have to break that pic out sometimes!

LOL! this one comes in handy. :)

RichH55
03-26-2002, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by CerberusWG
To Dan's column:

Disclaimer yadda yadda!! (http://www.amp-f.com/charade/wdfd.jpg)

The past is the past. Not once do you mention our farm system, or ANYTHING positive.

Sheesh, way to be a pessimist.


Well its easy to be a pessimist when you only look at the negatives:)

Spiff
03-26-2002, 06:30 AM
Yeh I can usually tell by the title whether or not I want to read it.

dougs78
03-26-2002, 09:44 AM
Yeh I can usually tell by the title whether or not I want to read it.

Yeah, I pretty much do the same thing, except by default I usually don't read them. I've only ran across about 2-3 columns that I actually agreed with so I pretty much just dont' read too many.

I think I'm going to take advantage of that "sound off" feature and write my feelings on the season here pretty soon. Maybe we can give a voice to the Sox fans who don't believe we are destined to an eternity of failure.

Lip Man 1
03-26-2002, 11:39 AM
This team hasn't even won A SINGLE HOME POST SEASON GAME (not series... a single game!)since 1959. They haven't been to a World Series in 42 years. They haven't WON a World Series in 86 years.
Their defense couldn't catch a cold, the pitching staff is composed of guys coming off major surgery or "can't miss kids" (read: Cheap) who collectively couldn't make a pimple on the ass of the "young guns" in Oakland, Houston, Anaheim or Seattle.

We've got a G. M. (stands for general moron) who only got his job because he's willing to work cheap and is a member of a minority race and who says at every chance "we can't afford the payroll we already have..."

Meanwhile the owner only cares about breaking the players union
and continues to alienate his once large fan base.

Yea, I've got literally hundreds of reasons to be optimistic about this team!

moochpuppy
03-26-2002, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This team hasn't even won A SINGLE HOME POST SEASON GAME (not series... a single game!)since 1959. They haven't been to a World Series in 42 years. They haven't WON a World Series in 86 years.
Their defense couldn't catch a cold, the pitching staff is composed of guys coming off major surgery or "can't miss kids" (read: Cheap) who collectively couldn't make a pimple on the ass of the "young guns" in Oakland, Houston, Anaheim or Seattle.

We've got a G. M. (stands for general moron) who only got his job because he's willing to work cheap and is a member of a minority race and who says at every chance "we can't afford the payroll we already have..."

Meanwhile the owner only cares about breaking the players union
and continues to alienate his once large fan base.

Yea, I've got literally hundreds of reasons to be optimistic about this team!

Why continue to be a fan then Lip? Seems like the Sox are causing you more grief than they're worth to you.

ma-gaga
03-26-2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Their defense couldn't catch a cold, the pitching staff is composed of guys coming off major surgery or "can't miss kids" (read: Cheap) who collectively couldn't make a pimple on the ass of the "young guns" in Oakland, Houston, Anaheim or Seattle.

We've got a G. M. (stands for general moron) who only got his job because he's willing to work cheap...

Meanwhile the owner only cares about breaking the players union
and continues to alienate his once large fan base.

Yes, but there are 20 other teams out there saying the exact same thing, and LUCKILY 4 of them are in the division. The Sox have a great chance, enjoy it while you can.

I'm more irked about the upcoming players/owners labor battle. I'd be willing to bet that the Sox will blast off to a 30-5 start, even Lip-man will jump on board the bandwagon, and... Well, I won't say it, but there will be a lot of angry fans all around.
:) This is my pessimism.

pearso66
03-26-2002, 12:19 PM
even if things look bad, you should know that anything can happen in baseball. so what we haev hurting arms, and cant miss rookies, but maybe, just maybe, they can turn it around, and tear up the league, and be better than that oakland staff. what are you to say that they wont? nothing, cuz you dont know. if i had the pessimistic attitude you had lip, there is no way i could be a sox fan. i go to games, and watch games, because i believe they are gonna win. you cant be THAT pessimistic about a team you love

Iwritecode
03-26-2002, 01:14 PM
After reading all the gripes and complaints on here I finally went and read the article for myself. My question is how can he complain about the attendance when it has actually been increasing the past 2-3 years? IIRC, in 2000 the Sox had the largest jump in attendance for a team that didn't get a new staduim. Only Seattle had a bigger increase in attendance. I don't remember exact figuers from last year but I believe they were still up from 2001. This year we are already starting out good by setting a new single day record for ticket sales. If the team plays well this year I think we should see another increase. I don't know why everyone expects the attendance to just double overnight. That only happens when the team gets a new ballpark.

hold2dibber
03-26-2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

We've got a G. M. (stands for general moron) who only got his job because he's willing to work cheap and is a member of a minority race and who says at every chance "we can't afford the payroll we already have..."


Why do you think KW only got the job because of his race? And what makes you think he is willing to work cheap? Anything to back up either of these assertions?

Bmr31
03-26-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Why do you think KW only got the job because of his race? And what makes you think he is willing to work cheap? Anything to back up either of these assertions?

hmm while those are assumptions, they may be pretty good ones. Why else would someone hire this idiot and why else would someone hold onto this idiot?

RedPinStripes
03-26-2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


hmm while those are assumptions, they may be pretty good ones. Why else would someone hire this idiot and why else would someone hold onto this idiot?

I'd lovet o comment, but i think I'll stay away from this one. My opinion can never be explained without people taking it the wrong way. :smile:

Bmr31
03-26-2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


I'd lovet o comment, but i think I'll stay away from this one. My opinion can never be explained without people taking it the wrong way. :smile:

Hmm thats a difference between us then. I could care less how people take things, i know who i am...

hold2dibber
03-26-2002, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


hmm while those are assumptions, they may be pretty good ones. Why else would someone hire this idiot and why else would someone hold onto this idiot?

I can think of a million, including that he did a good job in scouting for the team, that he is energetic and a hard worker, that he is willing to take risks and stand by his decisions, that he kisses ass, that he has "sensitive" pictures of JR, who knows? I don't, I'm guessing you don't, and I'm guessing Lip Man doesn't. Plus, there are/have been a ton of moron GMs in MLB who are white (e.g., Cam Bonifay, Syd Thrift, Dave Smith (the guy in Detroit, I may have his name wrong), the guy in Tampa Bay, etc., etc.) -- I think it more likely that those guys got their jobs because of race (and to think that a lot of non-white candidates have been shut out of jobs because of race) than to think it that KW got his job because of his race. (As an aside, I'm not a KW supporter; in my view, the jury is still out, but I'm getting more and more skeptical by the day).

czalgosz
03-26-2002, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


I can think of a million, including that he did a good job in scouting for the team, that he is energetic and a hard worker, that he is willing to take risks and stand by his decisions, that he kisses ass, that he has "sensitive" pictures of JR, who knows? I don't, I'm guessing you don't, and I'm guessing Lip Man doesn't. Plus, there are/have been a ton of moron GMs in MLB who are white (e.g., Cam Bonifay, Syd Thrift, Dave Smith (the guy in Detroit, I may have his name wrong), the guy in Tampa Bay, etc., etc.) -- I think it more likely that those guys got their jobs because of race (and to think that a lot of non-white candidates have been shut out of jobs because of race) than to think it that KW got his job because of his race. (As an aside, I'm not a KW supporter; in my view, the jury is still out, but I'm getting more and more skeptical by the day).

The Tigers just hired Dave Dombrowski - he's an excellent GM, IMO. He built the '97 Marlins, and then when ownership pulled the rug out from under him and forced him to dismantle the team, he built another contender in less than 3 years. The Tigers will suck this year, but they should be good down the road.

I don't like a lot of the moves that KW did, but I have to admire his determination to win. He's willing to risk criticism and his job by making controversial moves. Now, if only he would make some controversial moves that would involve the Sox picking up some players that bring more to the table than the fact that they're over 30, I would be really happy with him.

But you're right, there certainly are worse GMs out there.

RedPinStripes
03-26-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


Hmm thats a difference between us then. I could care less how people take things, i know who i am...

There's unwriten rules on message boards. I normally don't care what anyone thinks, but people would get offended by my thoughts on this.

hold2dibber
03-26-2002, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


The Tigers just hired Dave Dombrowski - he's an excellent GM, IMO. He built the '97 Marlins, and then when ownership pulled the rug out from under him and forced him to dismantle the team, he built another contender in less than 3 years. The Tigers will suck this year, but they should be good down the road.

I don't like a lot of the moves that KW did, but I have to admire his determination to win. He's willing to risk criticism and his job by making controversial moves. Now, if only he would make some controversial moves that would involve the Sox picking up some players that bring more to the table than the fact that they're over 30, I would be really happy with him.

But you're right, there certainly are worse GMs out there.

I could be mistaken, but I believe that Dombrowski was hired as Team President and that the guy who has been the GM for the past 4 or 5 years (I think his last name is Smith) is still the GM (though, widely rumored to be a lame duck in light of the Dombrowski hiring). And I agree, Dombrowski knows his stuff.

Procol Harum
03-26-2002, 05:04 PM
Is my memory serving me right that Dombrowski used to be here in the Sox front office about 9-10 years ago?

cornball
03-26-2002, 05:27 PM
I agree, the first thing people criticize the Sox for is attendance, ( it is a Cub vs. Sox thing)...but most of us have fond memories of sneaking down to the box seats as kids...After reading the article i felt the same as you did Calif. Except in my view, you dont have to go back to the 1960's, the biggest blunder in the organization history was when they put the team on pay tv.

I believe the Sox will be fine, the fans will show up, generally, when the team does...it has always been the case. There is a hard core group, like most of us, and hopefully we will see a series before too long.


GO SOX!!!!!!

czalgosz
03-26-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
Is my memory serving me right that Dombrowski used to be here in the Sox front office about 9-10 years ago?

Try 20 years ago. He started in the Sox front office working in the minor-league scouting department in the late '70s. He went to Montreal in the '80s.

Lip Man 1
03-26-2002, 06:47 PM
I root for the Sox because I was born and raised in Chicago. I'm not a Cub fan and won't root for any other team since I wasn't born there.

If you think the Sox are going to start the year 30-5, I've got a bridge that you might want to buy from me.

As far as the division....if the Sox win it, BIG DEAL.

If anybody out there thinks the Sox are going to beat the Yankees, A's or Mariners for the A.L. pennent, please let me know. I'd be happy to stake a ten on your stupidity.

I want more then just a divisional title every ten years or so
unlike some of you, I think winning a World series once in a LIFETIME is very reasonable.

I've only been waiting 41 years.

I say again, THANK GOD, Uncle Jerry is 66. I can't wait for the day they drop him in the ground. Maybe then, the Sox might get "lucky" like some of you are saying and get an owner to whom an 80 million dollar a year payroll is what he gives to charity.

Seattle is a small market, yet has a monster payroll, Chicago is the 3rd biggest market, fan base and media center in the country, yet has a payroll like Toronto. THAT'S the legacy of Uncle Jerry, and some of you are stupid enough to think you can "win" with that?

Lip

czalgosz
03-26-2002, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

Seattle is a small market, yet has a monster payroll, Chicago is the 3rd biggest market, fan base and media center in the country, yet has a payroll like Toronto. THAT'S the legacy of Uncle Jerry, and some of you are stupid enough to think you can "win" with that?

Lip

I don't think anyone has a problem with your points, Mark. It's more your tone. When you call Sox fans "stupid" for supporting the current team, or say the team will never, ever win a championship, that sets my teeth on edge.

First of all, I don't think Seattle has a payroll much higher than the Sox do. Their revenues are certainly higher, but I don't think they turn around put that back in the team. If someone has the numbers to prove me wrong, I'll be glad to eat crow on that point.

And it's simply wrong to say that you can't have a championship-caliber ballclub without a $100 million-plus payroll, that's just wrong. The A's are a good example. The Red Sox, Dodgers, and Orioles are examples of clubs that have big payrolls that do nothing.

I am not a big Reinsdorf fan. But sitting around hoping for Santa Claus to buy the team will just give you an ulcer, because it will never happen. I don't like complaints about payroll restrictions - they're like complaining about the weather. It makes one unhappy about a situation one can do nothing about. You should just throw in the towel and buy a Yankee cap. Then you can be happy.

FarWestChicago
03-26-2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
As far as the division....if the Sox win it, BIG DEAL.

If anybody out there thinks the Sox are going to beat the Yankees, A's or Mariners for the A.L. pennent, please let me know. I'd be happy to stake a ten on your stupidity.Is it really necessary to behave like a troll? Why don't you calm down before you post?

Lip Man 1
03-26-2002, 06:59 PM
As far as Ken Williams being an African American and his pay.
It is a fact that Jerry Reinsdorf is a member of baseballs committee to advance minorities in management positions. This is one of Bud Selig's "pet" areas.

The Sox have an African American G.M., an African American field manager, an African American 1st base coach and an African American 3rd base coach an African American hitting coach.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM with anyone's ethnic background IF THEY CAN DO THE JOB.

If Uncle Jerry wanted to hire a minority individual, he could have hired BOB WATSON as G.M. (who proved himself with the Yanks) and got someone like DUSTY BAKER OR FELIPE ALOU for field manager. Uncle Jerry didn't because he would have had to PAY for quality. Is it coincidence that the Sox haven't had a field manager who had that job previously in the bigs since Jeff Torborg? and they NEVER have hired anybody who was a G.M. for another MLB club. (Not an assistant, an ACTUAL G.M.)

Spiff
03-26-2002, 06:59 PM
Who says the Sox can't beat the Yankees or the Mariners or both? Anything can happen, yet some people are so sure the Sox are going nowhere before the season even starts.

There is a fine line between realism and pessimism, and also between idealism and optimism.

Lip Man 1
03-26-2002, 07:04 PM
Seattle's payroll is in the 80 MILLION DOLLAR RANGE.
Like Casey Stengel said, you can look it up...

Lip

Jerry_Manuel
03-26-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
As far as the division....if the Sox win it, BIG DEAL.

If anybody out there thinks the Sox are going to beat the Yankees, A's or Mariners for the A.L. pennent, please let me know.

I say again, THANK GOD, Uncle Jerry is 66. I can't wait for the day they drop him in the ground. Maybe then, the Sox might get "lucky" like some of you are saying and get an owner to whom an 80 million dollar a year payroll is what he gives to charity.


I know it comes to no surprise to most of you but I agree with everything Lip just said.

czalgosz
03-26-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Seattle's payroll is in the 80 MILLION DOLLAR RANGE.
Like Casey Stengel said, you can look it up...

Lip

Which is about $15 Million more than the Sox. That's not a big deal, especially when you consider that the Mariners finished first in AL attendance in 2001, and the White Sox finished 12th.

Look, it's just not worth fretting over. There's only one George Steinbrenner, and he ain't interested. In any case, it's not what you spend, it's how you spend it. You suggested that the Sox should have gone after a big-name pitcher. Since the 2000 season, there have been exactly 3 big-name pitchers worth going after that have been available - Kevin Appier, Mike Hampton and Mike Mussina. Hampton turned out not be worth it, (even his numbers away from Coors sucked last season, and there's serious questions now about his future), so that leaves Appier and Mussina. And getting into a bidding war with the Mets or Yankees guarantees you lose, whether you get the guy or not.

I'm sorry, coming on the board and trolling just isn't a good way to make friends around here.

I understand your frustration, I really do - you're preaching to the choir here. There are a lot of guys on this board who have been waiting as long as you or longer for a championship. But to come on and start insulting our intelligence isn't a good way to win people to your cause.

Daver
03-26-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
As far as Ken Williams being an African American and his pay.
It is a fact that Jerry Reinsdorf is a member of baseballs committee to advance minorities in management positions. This is one of Bud Selig's "pet" areas.

The Sox have an African American G.M., an African American field manager, an African American 1st base coach and an African American 3rd base coach an African American hitting coach.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM with anyone's ethnic background IF THEY CAN DO THE JOB.

If Uncle Jerry wanted to hire a minority individual, he could have hired BOB WATSON as G.M. (who proved himself with the Yanks) and got someone like DUSTY BAKER OR FELIPE ALOU for field manager. Uncle Jerry didn't because he would have had to PAY for quality. Is it coincidence that the Sox haven't had a field manager who had that job previously in the bigs since Jeff Torborg? and they NEVER have hired anybody who was a G.M. for another MLB club. (Not an assistant, an ACTUAL G.M.)

Are you observant to notice that Sox promote from within the organization more than any other oranization in baseball,or would that hurt your argument so it is ignored.

Bashing on KW because of what you suspect his paycheck is ignorant to say the least.That statement has nothing to do with his ability,or lack thereof,to do the job.

If you are going to troll do it well.

czalgosz
03-26-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I know it comes to no surprise to most of you but I agree with everything Lip just said.

But at least you're nice about it, and respect other people's opinions without insulting them personally.

I don't mind it when people disagree with me. It's when they start attacking me personally for disagreeing with them that I start to have problems.

Jerry_Manuel
03-26-2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I don't think anyone has a problem with your points, Mark. It's more your tone. When you call Sox fans "stupid" for supporting the current team, or say the team will never, ever win a championship, that sets my teeth on edge.

And it's simply wrong to say that you can't have a championship-caliber ballclub without a $100 million-plus payroll, that's just wrong. The A's are a good example. The Red Sox, Dodgers, and Orioles are examples of clubs that have big payrolls that do nothing.

You should just throw in the towel and buy a Yankee cap. Then you can be happy.

Perhaps calling someone stupid is out of line, but some people need to come into the real world. It's not stupid to support the team, it's stupid to think that this team as it currently stands has a shot at the World Series. The teams you mentioned throw big money to people who have no business earning it. Billy Beane is just incredible, the way he's able to restock the team amazes me. Kenny Williams is no Billy Beane. That's not to say he won't be in the future, but he's not even close now.

That wouldn't make me happy. Throwing on a Yankee cap isn't going to make Lip or someone like myself happy. You see the moves that this organization has made on and off the field, and you can't help but think "What the hell are you doing"? There's nothing we can do but sit back and watch is train wreck.

Jerry_Manuel
03-26-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Which is about $15 Million more than the Sox. That's not a big deal, especially when you consider that the Mariners finished first in AL attendance in 2001, and the White Sox finished 12th.

In any case, it's not what you spend, it's how you spend it. You suggested that the Sox should have gone after a big-name pitcher.


I could of swore, that I read the payroll entering spring training was around 55 million. Correct, there isn't many big name pitchers out there. The ones that were there weren't coming here anyway. We know Jerry's policy about giving long term, big money deals to pitchers.

KempersRS
03-26-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Perhaps calling someone stupid is out of line, but some people need to come into the real world. It's not stupid to support the team, it's stupid to think that this team as it currently stands has a shot at the World Series.

Maybe the chances are slim, but how can you say it's stupid to even think they have a shot? The bats can take ANYONE on, and I mean anyone. Sure the pitching is all question marks and it doesn't look all that promising, but I wouldn't go as far to say this team has no shot at taking their game all the way this year.

Jerry_Manuel
03-26-2002, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by daver
Are you observant to notice that Sox promote from within the organization more than any other oranization in baseball,or would that hurt your argument so it is ignored.


I know they do, but why didn't Evans get the job then? He was here close to 20 years. Right now it's tough to make a case for why Evans should be the GM, but at the time Williams was hired it was simple.

Jerry_Manuel
03-26-2002, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
Maybe the chances are slim, but how can you say it's stupid to even think they have a shot? The bats can take ANYONE on, and I mean anyone. Sure the pitching is all question marks and it doesn't look all that promising, but I wouldn't go as far to say this team has no shot at taking their game all the way this year.

The bats were able to take anyone in 2000 as well. No it's not 100% impossible that the Sox can reach the World Series, it's more like 95%.

Daver
03-26-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I know they do, but why didn't Evans get the job then? He was here close to 20 years. Right now it's tough to make a case for why Evans should be the GM, but at the time Williams was hired it was simple.

Kenny was hired by the advice of Ron Schueler,if he recomended him over Dan Evans there must be a reason,and I think the Dodgers are seeing it.

Lip Man 1
03-26-2002, 07:42 PM
Some quick final thoughts.Thanks to all for your opinions.
The Sox payroll right now stands at 57 million, that's a far cry from Seattle's 80+ (do the math!)
I agree 100% that you not only have to spend money but you have to be smart (i.e. Baltimore, Los Angeles). That's a very valid point.
I saw this on ESPN last October during the playoffs. FOR THE LAST FIVE YEARS COMBINED, teams in the postseason who have a payroll of UNDER 60 MILLION have won 5 games!That's not five SERIES...that's FIVE GAMES TOTAL. Something to think about.

The Sox do promote from within, maybe that explains WHY they haven't done squat in twenty years. All the people promoted are loyal to the organizations for their jobs, which only continues the insanity. No fresh ideas, no different ways of looking at the problems.

Dave Dombrowski (hired by Roland Hemond) would have been the perfect choice. He acquired talent in Montreal, won a series with Florida and is moving forward with the Tigers.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-26-2002, 07:45 PM
I think this argument cuts to the core about what it means to be a fan.

I've heard it said the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. I think there is a lot of wisdom in that statement.

If you give a damned about your team, you are a fan. You may hate the team, you may hate the owner, you may even wish the team would lose hoping it will bring about a brighter future. To my thinking, this is part of being a fan.

However, if you shrug your shoulders and don't care either way, you aren't a fan. These are the people who were against building New Comiskey for Reinsdorf, preferring to see the Sox move to Florida than force a conventioneer to part with cash to pay a hotel/motel tax. To piggyback on a good point Twins fan ma-gaga made, the couples living on either side of him wouldn't willingly part with their tax money to build a new Twins stadium, but he would. That's what makes ma-gaga a fan.

I think, by definition, you can't post at a dedicated fan website like White Sox Interactive without being a Fan of the team. After all, you had to give a damned enough to make a special trip here just to post.

As a group, Sox Fans are not pollyannas. If we were, we would be Cubs fans. :smile: There is plenty of room here for people who want to see a Sox world championship before they die. Excuse a few of us older Sox Fans, who have awakened to the fact that time isn't as long as it used to be.

Having said that, there is no place for personal insults here. I try to remind myself of this, too.

Jerry_Manuel
03-26-2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by daver
Kenny was hired by the advice of Ron Schueler,if he recomended him over Dan Evans there must be a reason,and I think the Dodgers are seeing it.

Like I said earlier, it's tough to make a case for Evans right now.

Daver
03-26-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


Dave Dombrowski (hired by Roland Hemond) would have been the perfect choice. He acquired talent in Montreal, won a series with Florida and is moving forward with the Tigers.

Dombrowski left the Sox organization a long time ago,for a chance at quicker advancement,and has never shown any interest in returning,so what is the point?

As far as promoting from within,what is the best way to attract and keep young potential talent?By showing them that their efforts will be rewarded in the long run,it has worked for a lot of Fortune 500 companies,yet you say it cannot work in the business of baseball,interesting.

RedPinStripes
03-26-2002, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
As far as Ken Williams being an African American and his pay.
It is a fact that Jerry Reinsdorf is a member of baseballs committee to advance minorities in management positions. This is one of Bud Selig's "pet" areas.

The Sox have an African American G.M., an African American field manager, an African American 1st base coach and an African American 3rd base coach an African American hitting coach.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM with anyone's ethnic background IF THEY CAN DO THE JOB.

If Uncle Jerry wanted to hire a minority individual, he could have hired BOB WATSON as G.M. (who proved himself with the Yanks) and got someone like DUSTY BAKER OR FELIPE ALOU for field manager. Uncle Jerry didn't because he would have had to PAY for quality. Is it coincidence that the Sox haven't had a field manager who had that job previously in the bigs since Jeff Torborg? and they NEVER have hired anybody who was a G.M. for another MLB club. (Not an assistant, an ACTUAL G.M.)

Now that i agree with. You worded that much beter then i was going to . That's why i didn't comment earlier on this subject.

czalgosz
03-26-2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by daver


Dombrowski left the Sox organization a long time ago,for a chance at quicker advancement,and has never shown any interest in returning,so what is the point?

As far as promoting from within,what is the best way to attract and keep young potential talent?By showing them that their efforts will be rewarded in the long run,it has worked for a lot of Fortune 500 companies,yet you say it cannot work in the business of baseball,interesting.

Actually, Reinsdorf has always shown that he will be loyal to people who are loyal to him. I don't think that's necessarily bad. Sometimes his loyalty hurts him (Hawk Harrelson's term as GM springs to mind) but I don't think you can honestly say that every decision he has made has been based on greed.

Daver
03-26-2002, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Actually, Reinsdorf has always shown that he will be loyal to people who are loyal to him. I don't think that's necessarily bad. Sometimes his loyalty hurts him (Hawk Harrelson's term as GM springs to mind) but I don't think you can honestly say that every decision he has made has been based on greed.

Oh I agree czal,Hawk the GM was a bad experience,but the fact that everyone wants to hang Kenny after a year and a half on the job makes me wonder if they remember the Hawk year or so at all.It was a choice between Kenny and Dan Evans,I think I prefer what the Sox have now.

FarWestChicago
03-26-2002, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Having said that, there is no place for personal insults here. I try to remind myself of this, too. I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine a mellow wall flower like you ever having the desire to insult anybody. :smile:

PaleHoseGeorge
03-26-2002, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine a mellow wall flower like you ever having the desire to insult anybody. :smile:

Good heavens, moi?

:gulp:

Lip Man 1
03-26-2002, 11:47 PM
Daver:

Just wondering, what's the point of promoting from within if the people who are working for you are incompetent?
Outside of Dave Dombrowski, name me ANYBODY who has worked for the Sox who has made an impact anywhere else?
We're talking about the last twenty years (and Roland Hemond doesn't count he was hired by John Allyn in 1970, all Uncle Jerry did was FIRE him) Let's talk G.M.'s? Hawk Harrelson...no. Larry Himes...no, "Jumbotron" Ron Scheuler...don't think so.
Now field managers...Jim Fregosi had some limited success after the Sox fired him...Jeff Torborg...no.Gene Lamont ...no, Terry Bevington...CERTAINLY not.
See my point? I've always wondered what might have happened had Tony LaRussa been rehired after he left Oakland, or if the Sox went and bought out Pat Gillick's deal, or John Schuerholz, or Walt Jocketty or John Hart. But to get those type of G.M.'s you'd have to pay BIG bucks and guarantee them a BIG payroll and the authority to do what they please.
With Uncle Jerry that'll never happen.

pearso66
03-26-2002, 11:50 PM
personally, i dont mind KW, i may not like him, but i dont mind him. he got a bad wrap with the wells deal, and the clayton deal made all the sox fans flaming.
and as for saying the sox have NO chance to make the world series, you cant really say it, because no matter what you think, every team has a chance before the season starts, you never know what could happen. so yes we very well could win it all, will we? probably not, but i stil like to think there is a chance

Daver
03-27-2002, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Daver:

Just wondering, what's the point of promoting from within if the people who are working for you are incompetent?
Outside of Dave Dombrowski, name me ANYBODY who has worked for the Sox who has made an impact anywhere else?


Dan Evans,the Sox let him go and he is well on his way to destroying the Dodgers.

The Sox kept Ken Williams,who built a top ranked minor league system,and knows what he has,and what their talent level is.

Billy Beane learned on the job in Oaklands system,and is the best GM in the game.Why is he still there? Loyalty to the owners,the ones that have taken him from point A to point B.

Instead of concentrating on Bill Veeck's so called "mistakes" try focusing on what is being built on the South Side of Chicago.

Not everyone in the Sox front office is wearing Beavington's Big Red Clown shoes.

Jerry_Manuel
03-27-2002, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by daver
Dan Evans,the Sox let him go and he is well on his way to destroying the Dodgers.

Not everyone in the Sox front office is wearing Beavington's Big Red Clown shoes.

Perhaps Mr. Evans still has a an old pair of Terry's shoes. :?:

Bmr31
03-27-2002, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


There's unwriten rules on message boards. I normally don't care what anyone thinks, but people would get offended by my thoughts on this.

unwritten rules dont apply to me, sorry. I wasnt put on earth to spoon feed people and kiss ass....

Bmr31
03-27-2002, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by daver


Oh I agree czal,Hawk the GM was a bad experience,but the fact that everyone wants to hang Kenny after a year and a half on the job makes me wonder if they remember the Hawk year or so at all.It was a choice between Kenny and Dan Evans,I think I prefer what the Sox have now.

what the heck does hawk have to do with anything? SO hawk was absolutely awful, KW isnt quite as bad, and everything is peachy? LOL please.....

RedPinStripes
03-27-2002, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


unwritten rules dont apply to me, sorry. I wasnt put on earth to spoon feed people and kiss ass....



And that's why you're so popular.

Wanna piss me off and see how much i kiss your ass?

Procol Harum
03-27-2002, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Try 20 years ago. He started in the Sox front office working in the minor-league scouting department in the late '70s. He went to Montreal in the '80s.

Yikes...like they say, time sure flys when you're having fun....was it at least the late '80s when he left?

SoxRulecubsdrool
03-27-2002, 10:51 AM
Where's the love? I think everyone on this thread can use a team hug! :)
All together now!