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RCWHITESOX
04-26-2007, 02:15 PM
Send him back to the minors or better yet trade him for a leadoff hitter who can play in the OF. Look to Tampa Bay for either R Badelli or LA Angeles for S Figgins Or S F for R Winn. I don't know about you but i really feel life's to short to wait from 1959 to 2005 to get into another World Series. As for as what I've seen from B Anderson he couldn't hit a beachball let alone major league pitching. And I'm sure that if the Sox put him on the trade block they would have to include some top prospets to land a quality leadoff hitter.

1917
04-26-2007, 02:19 PM
Send him to triple A to get some at bats, but don't trade him yet,,,Erstad is good so far, but is injury prone...it's April, it's a long season, especailly with Pods out...trading him for someone the likes of Baldeli would notmake sense with Erstad producing so far

twsoxfan5
04-26-2007, 02:22 PM
http://re3.mm-a4.yimg.com/image/3074602432 (http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fs earch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DDarrin%2BJackson%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26toggle%3D1%26cop%3Dmss%26ei%3DUTF-8&w=90&h=135&imgurl=www.mlb.com%2Fimages%2Fteam%2Fbroadcasters% 2Fbroadcaster_cws_jackson.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mlb.com%2FNASApp%2***b%2Ftea m%2Fbroadcasters.jsp%3Fc_id%3Dcws&size=6.6kB&name=broadcaster_cws_jackson.jpg&p=Darrin+Jackson&type=jpeg&no=2&tt=36&oid=cd7693ea1053e826&ei=UTF-8) Uh Oh

Beer Can Chicken
04-26-2007, 02:27 PM
I will say that I've been a huge supporter of him in the past but the more I watch him bat, the more I am slowly losing faith in his ability to hit well consistently. He has to get at-bats if he is going to succeed.
He should be in Triple-A if he isn't going to play 5 days a week. Let the mishandling of Brian Anderson continue.....

WizardsofOzzie
04-26-2007, 02:28 PM
Send him back to the minors or better yet trade him for a leadoff hitter who can play in the OF. Look to Tampa Bay for either R Badelli or LA Angeles for S Figgins Or S F for R Winn. I don't know about you but i really feel life's to short to wait from 1959 to 2005 to get into another World Series. As for as what I've seen from B Anderson he couldn't hit a beachball let alone major league pitching. And I'm sure that if the Sox put him on the trade block they would have to include some top prospets to land a quality leadoff hitter.
:rolleyes:

The Immigrant
04-26-2007, 02:33 PM
:threadsucks

Blackheart
04-26-2007, 02:45 PM
:threadsucks

How so? You mean to tell me you have any confidence in Him in at all in a game winning situation? Let alone in any situation other than defense? And don't tell me its because he isn't getting enough playing time, remember 06?

maurice
04-26-2007, 02:47 PM
Don't we already have like 3 other active threads discussing this?

:threadsucks

Grzegorz
04-26-2007, 02:48 PM
Don't we already have like 3 other active threads discussing this?

Sure, but remember the old saying "It's cheaper by the dozen"?

102605
04-26-2007, 02:48 PM
My comment:

BAAA

AZChiSoxFan
04-26-2007, 02:52 PM
Send him back to the minors or better yet trade him for a leadoff hitter who can play in the OF. Look to Tampa Bay for either R Badelli or LA Angeles for S Figgins Or S F for R Winn.

:rolleyes:

Perfect. Once the Angels get an S. Figgins on their team, maybe the Sox can look into it.

spiffie
04-26-2007, 02:54 PM
Don't we already have like 3 other active threads discussing this?
Pretty much every active thread is discussing this.

sox1970
04-26-2007, 02:54 PM
I think we're all pretty much on board together that he sucks and he needs to go. He's brutal and that's all that needs to be said.

CHISOXFAN13
04-26-2007, 02:55 PM
I think I'll bust my monitor the next time I read someone say we should trade Anderson for Baldelli.

maurice
04-26-2007, 02:57 PM
I think we're all pretty much on board together that he sucks and he needs to go.

I think you haven't read any of the other threads.
:rolleyes:

jenn2080
04-26-2007, 02:59 PM
I think we're all pretty much on board together that he sucks and he needs to go. He's brutal and that's all that needs to be said.


:rolleyes: Anderson does not suck. He just needs to go back to the minors for a bit where he can get some consistent batting in.

Scots-Sox
04-26-2007, 02:59 PM
Send him to triple A to get some at bats, but don't trade him yet,,,Erstad is good so far, but is injury prone...it's April, it's a long season, especailly with Pods out...trading him for someone the likes of Baldeli would notmake sense with Erstad producing so far

Erstad is hitting .224 - yep that's good ok

sox1970
04-26-2007, 03:02 PM
:rolleyes: Anderson does not suck. He just needs to go back to the minors for a bit where he can get some consistent batting in.

Ok fine, he doesn't suck. He's suck-ING. You're right. He needs to go to Charlotte and try to figure out how to be a baseball player again.

Dan Mega
04-26-2007, 03:09 PM
As I've said before, thank goodness for Brian Anderson, otherwise the Crede-haters wouldn't have anyone to complain about.

Rowandws33
04-26-2007, 03:13 PM
some people are so fickle first C.lee sux then crede sux then Garland sux then Rowand sux....WOW

Blackheart
04-26-2007, 03:18 PM
It goes deeper than Him needing more at bats. Its His work effect that concerns me. Just how bad does He want it. we've all heard the stories, watching tv when hes suppose to be studying opposing pitchers, not wanting to play winter ball, partying late before a game. If I thought He was trying as hard as He could to succeed then I'd be all for Him , But I'm just not sure He is.

1917
04-26-2007, 03:24 PM
Erstad is hitting .224 - yep that's good ok

I think he was hitting .120 a week ago, so yeah, he is heating up!

Uncle_Patrick
04-26-2007, 03:29 PM
It goes deeper than Him needing more at bats. Its His work effect that concerns me. Just how bad does He want it. we've all heard the stories, watching tv when hes suppose to be studying opposing pitchers, not wanting to play winter ball, partying late before a game. If I thought He was trying as hard as He could to succeed then I'd be all for Him , But I'm just not sure He is.

I guess I'm going to come off as the grammar police, but why do you keep capitalizing "Him" and "His"?

Goose
04-26-2007, 03:35 PM
I guess I'm going to come off as the grammar police, but why do you keep capitalizing "Him" and "His"?

It is a Bilblical thing.

Uncle_Patrick
04-26-2007, 03:40 PM
It is a Bilblical thing.
Ha ha, that was actually my first thought.

jenn2080
04-26-2007, 03:44 PM
Ok fine, he doesn't suck. He's suck-ING. You're right. He needs to go to Charlotte and try to figure out how to be a baseball player again.


I agree 110%

maurice
04-26-2007, 04:28 PM
It is a Bilblical thing.

BA is God? That explains everything: the divisiveness, his percecution at the hands of the non-believers, the miraculous catches, etc.
:tongue:

spiffie
04-26-2007, 04:29 PM
BA is God? That explains everything: the divisiveness, his percecution at the hands of the non-believers, the miraculous catches, etc.
:tongue:
He does kind of swing the bat like he has stigmata wounds. :wink:

chitownhawkfan
04-26-2007, 04:39 PM
He does kind of swing the bat like he has stigmata wounds. :wink:
:rolling: "Are you saying Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?"

At this point I would be more than happy if Kenny could package BAAA and Boone Logan for a batting practice pitcher or an old catchers mitt. The less I have to see of them in a Sox jersey the better. Those guys suck at life.

JB98
04-26-2007, 04:42 PM
Wow, what a fresh and exciting topic! :cool:

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 04:45 PM
Wow, what a fresh and exciting topic! :cool:

Agreed, even I'm sick of it.

Can 1 week go by in White Soxdom where we don't have to make swift team-alternating decisions?

gobears1987
04-26-2007, 04:54 PM
BAAA needs to go back the minors. Mabye he will find his swing there.

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 04:59 PM
BAAA needs to go back the minors. Mabye he will find his swing there.

What does that solve though? Honestly, he had a decent swing going into last year and was promptly given on and off starts. He had a decent swing in ST and promptly sat on the bench. It's worthless at this point to send him to the minors. We've gotten to the point where its now play him or trade him, plain and simple.

jenn2080
04-26-2007, 05:10 PM
What does that solve though? Honestly, he had a decent swing going into last year and was promptly given on and off starts. He had a decent swing in ST and promptly sat on the bench. It's worthless at this point to send him to the minors. We've gotten to the point where its now play him or trade him, plain and simple.



:wooty: :cheers: :thumbsup:

pearso66
04-26-2007, 05:15 PM
What does that solve though? Honestly, he had a decent swing going into last year and was promptly given on and off starts. He had a decent swing in ST and promptly sat on the bench. It's worthless at this point to send him to the minors. We've gotten to the point where its now play him or trade him, plain and simple.

As a fan of Brian Anderson, I would like to see him play, and given the shot, anywhere, even if it means the Sox trading him. As a fan of the White Sox, I know it is worthless trying to trade Anderson as his trade value is rock bottom. Why not send him down and let him get some work in. Either he continues to suck (oh well), or starts hitting, and you can build up his value, or bring him back up.

JB98
04-26-2007, 05:19 PM
Sometimes I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, and I don't know why you've been bringing me down.....

CLR01
04-26-2007, 05:25 PM
He sucks. I say we release him and deport his parents as punishment for our trouble.

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 05:27 PM
He sucks. I say we release him and deport his parents as punishment for our trouble.

And not castrate him? God, you FOBA!

CLR01
04-26-2007, 05:29 PM
And not castrate him? God, you FOBA!

I thought they did that over the offseason to stop the bar hopping 7 times a week. :dunno:

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 05:31 PM
I thought they did that over the offseason to stop the bar hopping 7 times a week. :dunno:

No confirmation on that, but I'll take it as a rumor and perpetuate it like this BA watches TV before games while every single other baseball player sits in the video room for 6 hours game-planning. Which you can clearly see by our results against no-name pitchers.

CLR01
04-26-2007, 05:35 PM
No confirmation on that, but I'll take it as a rumor and perpetuate it like this BA watches TV before games while every single other baseball player sits in the video room for 6 hours game-planning. Which you can clearly see by our results against no-name pitchers.

That's not entirely correct. The rest of the players would like to spend 6 hours reviewing tape but Ando hogs the TV to watch his Spongebob cartoons and do shots of Jager. That's pretty much all he does.

Nellie_Fox
04-26-2007, 05:54 PM
I say we release him and deport his parents as punishment for our trouble.Then burn their vacant house to the ground, plow the land under, and sow the soil with rock salt to assure that nothing ever grows there again.

oeo
04-26-2007, 06:01 PM
What does that solve though? Honestly, he had a decent swing going into last year and was promptly given on and off starts. He had a decent swing in ST and promptly sat on the bench. It's worthless at this point to send him to the minors. We've gotten to the point where its now play him or trade him, plain and simple.

No, it's not worthless. Ozzie obviously does not trust him enough to start him everyday (and not capitalizing on his chances to impress isn't helping him at all, I don't care how many ABs he's getting). So...instead of him rotting on the bench, send him down. He can get away from the big league life, lose all the pressure, and just play baseball. This doesn't mean that he's "BAAA", just that he needs some time away from the big leagues. I disagreed with that last year because we didn't have a centerfielder, but this year we do; so why let him rot when he could be getting his ABs elsewhere and can help the team in the future?

We had to live with his crappy offensive game last year, and we kept saying it'll turn around. Who's to say that more ABs up here is what he needs? Maybe that's the exact opposite, as his confidence is getting lower and lower. He needs to get his ABs elsewhere, where he feels confident and we don't have to live with a young guy working out his kinks when we're trying to win a championship. Sorry, I like BA, but he can't help this team right now.

Daver
04-26-2007, 06:18 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gif

Rowandws33
04-26-2007, 06:22 PM
did anyone hear listen to what Ozzie said about BA last night during the game???

JB98
04-26-2007, 06:23 PM
did anyone hear listen to what Ozzie said about BA last night during the game???

No, sorry. I wasn't in the dugout.

maurice
04-26-2007, 06:57 PM
Deporting his parents should be pretty easy. I think they live in Tucson, so it's a pretty short drive to the border.

We had to live with his crappy offensive game last year, and we kept saying it'll turn around.

This was true until mid-June, at which point we stopped saying that "it will turn around" and started saying "it has turned around." Unfortunately, Ozzie didn't notice. He had Anderson splitting time with Mack at the very beginning of the season and refused to stop.

No, sorry. I wasn't in the dugout.

:D:

nedlug
04-26-2007, 06:59 PM
did anyone hear listen to what Ozzie said about BA last night during the game???

No... what was it?

As a side note, I originally thought that this was a redundant verb, like 'taking a look see', but then I realized the homophone. :redneck

102605
04-26-2007, 07:06 PM
Are you refering to Ozzie saying this?

The White Sox opted not to have Anderson start the season in the minors, but Guillen acknowledged the player and club are in a "tough situation." "If Brian was playing at least decent last year, we don't have any room for Erstad to come here," Guillen said.



http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=AvoNIgXASUWKxtWrF79Q5mMRvLYF?gid=270426 104

oeo
04-26-2007, 07:07 PM
This was true until mid-June, at which point we stopped saying that "it will turn around" and started saying "it has turned around." Unfortunately, Ozzie didn't notice. He had Anderson splitting time with Mack at the very beginning of the season and refused to stop.

More like early July, and it lasted till about the end of August; then he was back to being crap. His ABs did not decrease significantly between the end of August and the end of the season, either. Good for him that he had a good month and a half, but that was a month and a half, and that's it. He's still afraid of the inside strike, he still swings at crap, and he still strikes out at an alarming rate. Nothing has changed...he needs to make adjustments in AAA, not here.

Tragg
04-26-2007, 07:18 PM
I think Anderson should start.

But, given that he isn't (and isn't getting consistent ABs), he should be in AAA. Using him as a DH is just cynical. And we certainly can't afford both he and Erstad in the same lineup.

Trading him now is a philosophy that would get us 72 wins - selling low.

JB98
04-26-2007, 07:20 PM
Are you refering to Ozzie saying this?

The White Sox opted not to have Anderson start the season in the minors, but Guillen acknowledged the player and club are in a "tough situation." "If Brian was playing at least decent last year, we don't have any room for Erstad to come here," Guillen said.



http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=AvoNIgXASUWKxtWrF79Q5mMRvLYF?gid=270426 104

The most interesting thing in the article is Thome declaring himself ready to play, while Ozzie apparently wants him to sit "a couple more days."

Nellie_Fox
04-26-2007, 07:26 PM
The most interesting thing in the article is Thome declaring himself ready to play, while Ozzie apparently wants him to sit "a couple more days."I'm guessing Ozzie listens to Herm on these matters.

maurice
04-26-2007, 07:33 PM
he had a good month and a half

Actually, it was quite a bit longer than a month-and-a-half. From 6/11/06 until 8/31/06, he hit .292. Then he hit about .200 for a month until the season ended. Then he hit .292 again for another month during Spring Training. Then he was benched.

In other words, he hit about .160 for his first 150 or so MLB ABs and he's batted .262 since then.

JB98
04-26-2007, 07:35 PM
I'm guessing Ozzie listens to Herm on these matters.

Probably. I'm glad Dye is going to be back in there tomorrow. Our lineup is a lot easier to pitch to without those guys.

Essentially, our bench consisted of Gonzalez and Molina last night.

UserNameBlank
04-26-2007, 07:40 PM
Are you refering to Ozzie saying this?

The White Sox opted not to have Anderson start the season in the minors, but Guillen acknowledged the player and club are in a "tough situation." "If Brian was playing at least decent last year, we don't have any room for Erstad to come here," Guillen said.



http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=AvoNIgXASUWKxtWrF79Q5mMRvLYF?gid=270426 104
That's kind of funny Ozzie said that because the reasoning for Erstad being brought in at the time was that Pods wasn't going to be able to start the season with the Sox and we needed a backup CF. Even if BA hit .350 last year with 50 homers we still would have needed a backup. Erstad belonged on this team when we got him and he still does now, but as a bench player.

MarySwiss
04-26-2007, 07:45 PM
No, it's not worthless. Ozzie obviously does not trust him enough to start him everyday (and not capitalizing on his chances to impress isn't helping him at all, I don't care how many ABs he's getting).

Sorry, I like BA, but he can't help this team right now.

Ding, ding, ding; we have a winner! IMO, you have nailed it. I don't know (and don't really care) what Ozzie's problem with BA is, but there sure as hell seems to be one.

And I was all about BA last year also. I still think he can be a fine CF for this team, but looks like that is not going to happen, based on current conditions. So what do you do? What you DON'T do--again IMO, is make him your DH! :?:

balke
04-26-2007, 08:29 PM
Erstad goes 0-4 and Anderson should be starting. Anderson goes 0-4 and he should be in the minors. Mackowiak goes 0-4 and the experiment should be over. Gload goes 0-4 and he should never be in the OF again. Konerko goes 0-4 and he should be benched.


I for one am going to let BA get at least 60 at bats in this season before I condemn him to the minors. They've already pulled him up from the minors for an entire season, there's no benefit sending him down again. We're gonna pull up Sweeney, get similar results, then send him back down.

Anderson is our 4th or 5th OFer, and that's the way it should be. We have Pods hurt, Mackowiak hurt, Dye is gonna need rest now and again, and Mr. Glass in CF is begging for an injury with his aggressive play. Between giving Konerko and Thome rest, Anderson isn't a bad fit to this team.

For the record, the only person I'd have confidence in to hit against Jones with the bases juiced last night would've been Crede. BA looks horrible right now, but if I can give Jermaine Dye 60 ABs from when he started with the Sox, I can give Anderson 60 ABs this season.

Anyone see how Rowand is doing this season?

Grzegorz
04-26-2007, 08:38 PM
Ding, ding, ding; we have a winner! IMO, you have nailed it. I don't know (and don't really care) what Ozzie's problem with BA is, but there sure as hell seems to be one.

Ozzie should put his feelings aside and send the kid down. Ozzie is basically abusing an asset. I am surprised KW is complicit in Ozzie's treatment of BA.

But, we know Ozzie cannot harness his emotions. So I fully expect to see Ozzie scapegoat BA if the Chicago White Sox do not make the playoffs.

If this scenario should unfold then the spotlight, as hard as Ozzie will try to direct away from himself, should be fully focused on the beloved skipper.

champagne030
04-26-2007, 08:42 PM
I for one am going to let BA get at least 60 at bats in this season before I condemn him to the minors. They've already pulled him up from the minors for an entire season, there's no benefit sending him down again. We're gonna pull up Sweeney, get similar results, then send him back down.

Anderson is our 4th or 5th OFer, and that's the way it should be. We have Pods hurt, Mackowiak hurt, Dye is gonna need rest now and again, and Mr. Glass in CF is begging for an injury with his aggressive play. Between giving Konerko and Thome rest, Anderson isn't a bad fit to this team.



I think GrindErstad should be the 4th OF, but I'm not making the lineup. Somebody mentioned in one of the 9000 threads that this is beating a dead horse. They are correct. If Ozzie is going to continue to misuse Anderson and give him a spot start or two every two weeks then it's best for him and the team to be playing in Charlotte. It looks like Ozzie succeeded and broke BA, his comments recently and body language point to giving up. He needs to get his confidence back and that's not going to happen anytime soon with Ozzie making out the lineup card. Sweeney isn't the answer either. It would be someone like Terrero who plays decent/good defense and doesn't need AB's to improve. He's already who he is. If/when GrindErstad goes down we need BA to have some confidence/AB's under his belt.

MarySwiss
04-26-2007, 08:43 PM
Erstad goes 0-4 and Anderson should be starting. Anderson goes 0-4 and he should be in the minors. Mackowiak goes 0-4 and the experiment should be over. Gload goes 0-4 and he should never be in the OF again. Konerko goes 0-4 and he should be benched.

I for one am going to let BA get at least 60 at bats in this season before I condemn him to the minors.

Well, that's kind of the point, I think. How often, where, and playing what position? I do not see how anyone can reasonably expect him to be anything close to consistent when he is being bounced around like a racquetball.
BTW, your summary of what constitutes "DarkCloud-ism" is excellent!:smile:

JB98
04-26-2007, 08:46 PM
Ozzie should put his feelings aside and send the kid down. Ozzie is basically abusing an asset. I am surprised KW is complicit in Ozzie's treatment of BA.

But, we know Ozzie cannot harness his emotions. So I fully expect to see Ozzie scapegoat BA if the Chicago White Sox do not make the playoffs.

If this scenario should unfold then the spotlight, as hard as Ozzie will try to direct away from himself, should be fully focused on the beloved skipper.

Ozzie wanted to send Anderson down at the end of spring training. I think he still does. With Rogowski being outrighted, there is now an open spot on the 40-man. I'm not going to be stunned if Terrero fills that spot and is called up soon to be the backup CF, while BA goes down to work on his swing.

Rowandws33
04-26-2007, 09:03 PM
during Anderson first at-bat they played an interview of ozzie talking about BA. That BA is in a tough spot this season. The hardest thing in the world to do is come off the bench and try to go 3-4 when you get a chance.

JB98
04-26-2007, 09:05 PM
during Anderson first at-bat they played an interview of ozzie talking about BA. That BA is in a tough spot this season. The hardest thing in the world to do is come off the bench and try to go 3-4 when you get a chance.

Ozzie also indicated that veteran players (like Mackowiak and Cintron) are better able to cope with and succeed in bench roles. That's why I wouldn't be stunned if we see Terrero soon.

Lip Man 1
04-26-2007, 09:26 PM
Ozzie comments on B.A. From White Sox.com Thursday night:


"Brian picked up his own destiny," Guillen said. "When he goes out there and he fails, I think they should blame it on me. Or, blame it on the game. First of all, blame it on him. If Brian was at least decent last year, we don't have to make any move for [Darin] Erstad to come down here.

"I talked to him in Spring Training, when we told him he made the team. I told him right to his face, 'It's a shame when you're so young and you're a backup player.' But Brian will be a backup player this year. We never know what's going to happen next year."

Seems Ozzie has made his decision.

Lip

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 09:28 PM
Haha, and people seriously don't still think theres a personal vendetta. *****.
Please trade him already. Not for the sake of the team but for the sake of his career.

That's why I don't think a stupid demotion to Charlotte is going to help at all. Because he could hit .500 down there and that won't change the fact that Ozzie still doesn't like him and never will. The relationship between the two is done, so just please trade him already and just finish this damn chapter.

Craig Grebeck
04-26-2007, 09:42 PM
It's such bull****. He already destroyed AAA pitching and had a tough season (which countless other solid MLBers have done) to start his career. We're starting a guy over him who is well below average offensively and has such limited upside.

FREE BRIAN ANDERSON (by trade or some other means, Ozzie is a complete jackass)

maurice
04-26-2007, 10:27 PM
I for one am going to let BA get at least 60 at bats in this season before I condemn him to the minors.

Preferably at a higher rate than the current 3 AB / week.

Anyone see how Rowand is doing this season?

Very well, last time I checked.

I talked to him in Spring Training, when we told him he made the team. I told him right to his face, "It's a shame when you're so young and you're a backup player." But Brian will be a backup player this year.

In other words, while Anderson was wrapping up Spring Training with a .292 AVE, Ozzie told him that he would use him as a backup all year, no matter how well he plays. Brilliant managing!

oeo
04-26-2007, 10:29 PM
Haha, and people seriously don't still think theres a personal vendetta. *****.
Please trade him already. Not for the sake of the team but for the sake of his career.

That's why I don't think a stupid demotion to Charlotte is going to help at all. Because he could hit .500 down there and that won't change the fact that Ozzie still doesn't like him and never will. The relationship between the two is done, so just please trade him already and just finish this damn chapter.

Going out every chance you get and giving it your all wouldn't hurt. Do you honestly wonder why Ozzie likes guys like Aaron Rowand, Darin Erstad, Rob Mackowiak, Pablo Ozuna, Timo Perez, etc.? It's not because they're "grinders", it's because they go out and bust their ass every night. He likes guys like Paulie too, who bust their ass.

He doesn't like guys like Carlos Lee, or Anderson who play when they feel like it. I like that Ozzie's attitude on this; hopefully Brian can turn himself around and start giving his all at every chance he gets. It may have been easy for him to get up here, but he's going to have to work to keep his job; I like it.

I like Brian, but come on, how can you take your very few chances at impressing the organization, and not go 110%? Give it your all, and Ozzie loves you; don't, and well, he'll sit you on the bench.

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 10:32 PM
How can you really tell when one player is "Giving it their all". You say its no different then being a grinder, but it's the same in no way tangible baseball thinking. How does one give it his all? Does Timo Perez give it his all towards a .262 career batting average?

What exactly constitutes, "giving it your all" and when can I see when a player "gives it his all"? Was Paulie giving it his all last week when he couldn't hit a lick, or did he start giving it his all this week when he starting hitting again?

Did Anderson hustling from 1st to home on the Erstad double earlier this week constitute giving it your all, or do we not count that?

I'm not trying to be a stat-geek or anything, but I'd love to know how you can tell when one player is giving it his all over another. If giving it his all is related to performance then obviously Willie Harris and Timo Perez aren't always giving it their all. In that case, what constitutes giving it his all? When can you look at a play or a player and say "He gave it his all"?

lumpyspun
04-26-2007, 10:38 PM
How can you really tell when one player is "Giving it their all". You say its no different then being a grinder, but it's the same in no way tangible baseball thinking.

Kind of like Anderson gets the best "jump on the ball" in the history of baseball, as many here claim?

oeo
04-26-2007, 10:39 PM
How can you really tell when one player is "Giving it their all". You say its no different then being a grinder, but it's the same in no way tangible baseball thinking. How does one give it his all? Does Timo Perez give it his all towards a .262 career batting average?

What exactly constitutes, "giving it your all" and when can I see when a player "gives it his all"? Was Paulie giving it his all last week when he couldn't hit a lick, or did he start giving it his all this week when he starting hitting again?

Giving your all is busting your ass on defense, on a ground ball, on the basepaths in generel, etc. It's not letting Brandon ****ing Inge stretch a single into a double because you don't feel like running it out today; it's making sure you get to that ball as fast as possible so he has no shot to stretch it into a double.

As a young player, Brian really needs to do those things. It's like he has a superstar mentality, but he's years away from being a superstar.

This is just one example, but I'm sure Ozzie has more. It's the only thing I can think of because Ozzie has a ton of different personalities on this team (he has probably the biggest), so I doubt it's a personality thing. There's something there that Ozzie doesn't like about him, and from Ozzie's history of not liking people, it's usually work ethic.

Craig Grebeck
04-26-2007, 10:40 PM
Kind of like Anderson gets the best "jump on the ball" in the history of baseball, as many here claim?
Hyperbole at it's finest. There's a difference between scouting and tangible defensive analysis and an overblown lie that a manager with a vendetta has hinted at and a fanbase has rallied around in order to support an older, senseless, light hitting alternative.

Craig Grebeck
04-26-2007, 10:41 PM
Giving your all is busting your ass on defense. It's not letting Brandon ****ing Inge stretch a single into a double because you don't feel like running it out today; it's making sure you get to that ball as fast as possible so he has no shot to stretch it into a double.

As a young player, Brian really needs to do those things. It's like he has a superstar mentality, but he's years away from being a superstar.

This is just one example, but I'm sure Ozzie has more. It's the only thing I can think of because Ozzie has a ton of different personalities on this team (he has probably the biggest), so I doubt it's a personality thing. There's something there that Ozzie doesn't like about him, and from Ozzie's history of not liking people, it's usually work ethic.
Good reasoning.

IndianWhiteSox
04-26-2007, 10:42 PM
Ozzie comments on B.A. From White Sox.com Thursday night:


"Brian picked up his own destiny," Guillen said. "When he goes out there and he fails, I think they should blame it on me. Or, blame it on the game. First of all, blame it on him. If Brian was at least decent last year, we don't have to make any move for [Darin] Erstad to come down here.

"I talked to him in Spring Training, when we told him he made the team. I told him right to his face, 'It's a shame when you're so young and you're a backup player.' But Brian will be a backup player this year. We never know what's going to happen next year."

Seems Ozzie has made his decision.

Lip

If that's the case, then bye bye BA. Although, I'm starting to wonder if Ozzie is doing this just so he can convince KW and JR to try and sign Andruw Jones! While trading away BA along with Contreras package(Contreras for Volquez, Koronka and Arias) to TB for Crawford!

It is sad though, because I was expecting BA to have a breakthrough season this year. But oh well, times have changed.

oeo
04-26-2007, 10:45 PM
Good reasoning.

What's your reasoning? I have history to back mine up...you're just saying, "Ozzie hates Brian," yet you're giving no reason. I agree that there's something Ozzie doesn't like about him, but I don't think it's personalities clashing.

lumpyspun
04-26-2007, 10:47 PM
Hyperbole at it's finest. There's a difference between scouting and tangible defensive analysis and an overblown lie that a manager with a vendetta has hinted at

How do you hint at a lie?

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 10:48 PM
Kind of like Anderson gets the best "jump on the ball" in the history of baseball, as many here claim?

Zone Rating (The amount of balls hit in the CF zone that the player makes a play on) I believe for the most part that deals with getting a good read on the ball and making a higher percentage of plays in the same CF zone as every other player in the majors.

2006 MLB Rankings:
Anderson was 10/20, beating the likes of Andruw Jones, Gary Matthews Jr, Kenny Lofton and Torii Hunter. But under the ranks of Byrnes, Beltran, Cameron, Sizemore and Granderson.

I think that's pretty tangible evidence to say he's average to above average in Center Field, I don't remember anybody saying he was the best in the history of baseball.

He was also 3/20 in the Majors in Range Factor which takes into account the amount of OF assists and Putouts you collect divided by your innings played. Although, I think that can be a bit judgemental, it still shows combined with ZR that he's definitely an above-average defensive centerfielder.

Craig Grebeck
04-26-2007, 10:50 PM
What's your reasoning? I have history to back mine up...you're just saying, "Ozzie hates Brian," yet you're giving no reason. I agree that there's something Ozzie doesn't like about him, but I don't think it's personalities clashing.
Because Ozzie didn't like Carlos Lee (supposedly because of his inability to break up a double play), his dislike for BA must mean BA's tude= Lee's tude? It's just strange logic.

What's my history? Ozzie says in ST: CF is up for grabs. BA outperforms Erstad and is punished. Erstad sucks for the first month, BA punished.

oeo
04-26-2007, 10:51 PM
Hyperbole at it's finest. There's a difference between scouting and tangible defensive analysis and an overblown lie that a manager with a vendetta has hinted at and a fanbase has rallied around in order to support an older, senseless, light hitting alternative.

Probably because that, 'older, senseless, light hitting alternative' has helped the team win more games in this early season than Brian did all of last year. I'm all for giving Brian a shot, just not now; I don't want to watch him jump out of the way of strikes, and swing at strike three in the dirt anymore.

oeo
04-26-2007, 10:53 PM
Because Ozzie didn't like Carlos Lee (supposedly because of his inability to break up a double play), his dislike for BA must mean BA's tude= Lee's tude? It's just strange logic.

Breaking up the double play was just one example of Lee's laziness. Did you watch the guy in the outfield at all? Look at him now, he's a ****ing fatass.

What's my history? Ozzie says in ST: CF is up for grabs. BA outperforms Erstad and is punished. Erstad sucks for the first month, BA punished.

Brian put together a good spring last year. So did Boone Logan; why does this matter? Ozzie thought Erstad gave us the better chance to win, and so far he's been right.

lumpyspun
04-26-2007, 10:54 PM
Zone Rating (The amount of balls hit in the CF zone that the player makes a play on) I believe for the most part that deals with getting a good read on the ball and making a higher percentage of plays in the same CF zone as every other player in the majors.

2006 MLB Rankings:
Anderson was 10/20, beating the likes of Andruw Jones, Gary Matthews Jr, Kenny Lofton and Torii Hunter. But under the ranks of Byrnes, Beltran, Cameron, Sizemore and Granderson.

I think that's pretty tangible evidence to say he's average to above average in Center Field, I don't remember anybody saying he was the best in the history of baseball.

He was also 3/20 in the Majors in Range Factor which takes into account the amount of OF assists and Putouts you collect divided by your innings played. Although, I think that can be a bit judgemental, it still shows combined with ZR that he's definitely an above-average defensive centerfielder.

I was not aware of zone rankings, but I thank you for pointing that out to me.

Anyway, at what point does zone ranking get thrown away in favor of most any other offensive stat in baseball that Anderson falls well below average (that's a hypothetical question...I'm done arguing about Anderson. I've filled my Anderson posts quota:smile:).

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 10:58 PM
I was not aware of zone rankings, but I thank you for pointing that out to me.

Anyway, at what point does zone ranking get thrown away in favor of most any other offensive stat in baseball that Anderson falls well below average.

I wasn't arguing that. He sucks currently at the plate, I won't debate that at all. His swing has huge holes in it, he's not catching up to the fastball and he doesn't look at all loose out there. I don't think you throw out his offensive woes, because they are there. Just as we couldn't hide Crede's in 03-04, we can't hide Anderson's. But something has to be said for giving some playing time to an above-average defensive player who did quite well in the minors but is struggling in the majors. Eventually, you gotta just stick with the ups and the downs and see what you really got out of the guy. We've seen what we have with Crede and he's finally reached his potential. But because of certain reasons, we'll never get a chance to see if Anderson will do the same.

And no problem about Zone Rating. I think its a pretty sweet stat and it really makes Joe Crede out to be a hell of a defender, because it shows the ability for the player to get to the balls.

Granted they may make some errors and Crede does, but the fact that he gets to almost 85-90% of the balls hit in the 3B zone says a lot. ZR also destroys Derek Jeter completely, by that he is one of the worst SS in terms of getting to balls in that zone. Just more ammo in the Jeter + GG = Joke.

Craig Grebeck
04-26-2007, 11:05 PM
Breaking up the double play was just one example of Lee's laziness. Did you watch the guy in the outfield at all? Look at him now, he's a ****ing fatass.



Brian put together a good spring last year. So did Boone Logan; why does this matter? Ozzie thought Erstad gave us the better chance to win, and so far he's been right.
Ozzie said whoever performed better would get the job.

oeo
04-26-2007, 11:06 PM
Actually, it was quite a bit longer than a month-and-a-half. From 6/11/06 until 8/31/06, he hit .292. Then he hit about .200 for a month until the season ended. Then he hit .292 again for another month during Spring Training. Then he was benched.

His Spring Training stats were worthless last year, I don't see why it would have been any different this year. He still has holes in his swing, and there's something seriously wrong in his head if he's jumping out of the way of strikes. I can go up there and not jump out of the way of strikes. He shouldn't be trying to hit pitching that he's afraid of (or whatever the hell is going on there, I don't know).

oeo
04-26-2007, 11:14 PM
I wasn't arguing that. He sucks currently at the plate, I won't debate that at all. His swing has huge holes in it, he's not catching up to the fastball and he doesn't look at all loose out there. I don't think you throw out his offensive woes, because they are there. Just as we couldn't hide Crede's in 03-04, we can't hide Anderson's. But something has to be said for giving some playing time to an above-average defensive player who did quite well in the minors but is struggling in the majors. Eventually, you gotta just stick with the ups and the downs and see what you really got out of the guy. We've seen what we have with Crede and he's finally reached his potential. But because of certain reasons, we'll never get a chance to see if Anderson will do the same.

We were not an elite team when we went through Crede's up and downs. We're trying to win a championship, and Anderson isn't helping. I don't want to go through the ups and downs, I want to see results right now.

He was given a chance, albeit in a platoon role, last year. He hasn't shown great improvements, he needs to work on it elsewhere; we don't have time to wait a couple of years for him to reach his potential like we could with Crede. The window to win a championship with this core of players is shrinking, so he needs to get it together now, or he's going to have to wait for another shot.

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 11:19 PM
He was given a chance, albeit in a platoon role, last year. He hasn't shown great improvements, he needs to work on it elsewhere; we don't have time to wait a couple of years for him to reach his potential like we could with Crede. The window to win a championship with this core of players is shrinking, so he needs to get it together now, or he's going to have to wait for another shot.

Look back please at how patient Sox fans were with Crede. What team doesn't go into a season wanting to be elite? You're making it sound like 2003 and 2004 were rebuilding years, we were competitive until the last couple of weeks both of those seasons.

2003: 86-76
2004: 83-79

oeo
04-26-2007, 11:26 PM
Look back please at how patient Sox fans were with Crede. What team doesn't go into a season wanting to be elite? You're making it sound like 2003 and 2004 were rebuilding years, we were competitive until the last couple of weeks both of those seasons.

Although we may have hoped that those teams would win a championship, we had no idea. I was willing to be patient with Crede (most Sox fans were not), but I don't feel the same way about Anderson. After watching this core of players win in 2005, I know that this current team can win a championship. I don't want to watch Anderson be a weak spot in our chances to do so. Unless we sign Buehrle and Dye over the offseason, I think this is our shot to win another one before we have to wait at least a few more years to do so again.

Inserting all those young guys into our rotation, bringing youth to our outfield, a big question mark for a leadoff hitter, Crede may be gone soon; I mean, there are going to be a lot of changes in the next couple of years...this might be our last shot to win another championship for awhile. It's time to win now, and if you're not getting the job done, then tough luck. It sucks for Brian, but it sucked for McCarthy, too. That's part of being in a winning organization. This is why I think Brian should be making the best of the chances he does get, because if you're not going to succeed, we'll find someone else who will.

thedudeabides
04-26-2007, 11:38 PM
I like BA and would like to see him develop, but I don't think it's the time. I currently like Erstad in center. I think if this was a middle of the road team you let Anderson develop. The Sox, in this division, don't have that option.

I think in some ways Ozzie is challenging Anderson to see how he responds. Theres a lot of good managers who have done this. The Weavers, Cox's, Larusa's have been doing this for a long time. It looks to me, he needs it. Not every player responds to this treatment, but sometimes it can help players.

It seems to me if he was busting hard to improve they would give him more opportunities. I believe there's a reason they're not. And I don't think it's about personal vendettas. Above all else Kenny and Ozzie want to win.

Navarro's Talent
04-27-2007, 12:01 AM
I love Anderson's defense. I think he gives the Sox a better chance at preventing runners from scoring than any outfielder we have. Granted, he had a bad play a few days ago, but he's been very solid for the most part since last season.

I think he might have to be sent down, though, because he just isn't getting the at-bats needed for consistency in the Majors. BA is not a lost-cause, in my opinion. With the proper amount of at-bats, he could easily find his swing and help contribute. I just think he has a better chance of doing that in the Minors at this point in time. Sending him down is scary to think of, though, because that means Pablo would be backing up Mack until Pods returns! :o:

Nellie_Fox
04-27-2007, 12:05 AM
It just amazes me that people look at the situation with Ozzie, the only manager who has brought us a world championship in our lifetimes, and Anderson, a rookie who has accomplished absolutely not a ****ing thing, and come to the conclusion that it's Ozzie who's wrong.

You know absolutely nothing about what's going on in the clubhouse, nothing about what goes on between Anderson and the coaching staff, between Anderson and the other players. And then, if Ozzie did spell out his problems with Anderson, you'd be howling about how "that stuff should be kept in the clubhouse" and "Ozzie is throwing BA under the bus" (currently on the top-ten list of hackneyed phrases, by the way.)

Hints are given; coaches criticize "young players" who are watching TV before games instead of going over available tapes of the opposing pitcher. Read between the lines, people.

nodiggity59
04-27-2007, 12:12 AM
Anybody who's seen BA's ABs this year knows that more playing time will not fix him this season. IMO, he's at least 2 years away from being an average MLB hitter, ie better than Erstad. He truly looks clueless.

Erstad helps the team right now more than BA. We should trade BA. All he's ever done is have 6 good weeks at the MLB level, probably in favorable match ups as well and not against the best pitchers. Minor league and ST stats mean nothing. And, once and for all, a platoon role IS a chance.

This guy doesn't need a chance, he needs to play on the Marlins so he can come around by 2010. It worked wonders for Borchard, he's approaching decent for them.

A. Cavatica
04-27-2007, 12:18 AM
Erstad has proven he's a fourth outfielder. He's got a nice glove and he plays hard, but he doesn't hit enough, and he's on the decline.

Anderson has the potential to be a lot better than that, but he's not going to achieve it in Chicago. Maybe a demotion to Charlotte would light a fire under him, but he probably just needs at-bats for a more supportive manager.

Podsednik isn't much of an outfielder either.

I wonder who's going to be available at the deadline...

Jerome
04-27-2007, 12:21 AM
This was true until mid-June, at which point we stopped saying that "it will turn around" and started saying "it has turned around." Unfortunately, Ozzie didn't notice. He had Anderson splitting time with Mack at the very beginning of the season and refused to stop.

He was a ROOKIE LAST YEAR! A first year player in the big leagues. I'm sorry he's not Ryan Howard or Albert Pujols, but most young players need time don't they? We thought highly enough of this guy, who had succeeded at every level of the minors, to trade BOTH Chris Young and Aaron Rowand.

And what does Ozzie Guillen do? Put Rob Mackowiack in CF and the next year give Darin Erstad his job? Are you kidding me? Who the **** is Darin Erstad?

This is something Dusty would do, playing his ****ty vets instead of the young guys who are supposed to develop into key parts of the team. I'm glad Erstad is on our team as insurance policy for Pods but he should be the 4th OF, nothing more until Pods gets back.

CLR01
04-27-2007, 12:33 AM
I like BA and would like to see him develop, but I don't think it's the time. I currently like Erstad in center. I think if this was a middle of the road team you let Anderson develop. The Sox, in this division, don't have that option.

Then KW better get on the horn and find a new 5th starter and some bullpen help. If they can't afford to let Anderson learn on the job they surely can't afford to let Danks, Masset, and Logan do the same. Those guys all will have many more opportunities to negatively effect game outcomes than the 9th guy in the lineup..

oeo
04-27-2007, 12:38 AM
Then KW better get on the horn and find a new 5th starter and some bullpen help. If they can't afford to let Anderson learn on the job they surely can't afford to let Danks, Masset, and Logan do the same. Those guys all will have many more opportunities to negatively effect game outcomes than the 9th guy in the lineup..

Logan shouldn't even be with the team, but Masset and Danks have yet to show me a reason why we need replacements. Anderson was given that shot to learn on the job last year, and he still hasn't learned. Enough is enough, there's not time to sit and wait for him to reach his potential right now.

oeo
04-27-2007, 12:43 AM
Erstad has proven he's a fourth outfielder. He's got a nice glove and he plays hard, but he doesn't hit enough, and he's on the decline.

Anderson has the potential to be a lot better than that, but he's not going to achieve it in Chicago. Maybe a demotion to Charlotte would light a fire under him, but he probably just needs at-bats for a more supportive manager.

Podsednik isn't much of an outfielder either.

I wonder who's going to be available at the deadline...

If anything, Erstad has shown over the past week that these last few years were a fluke. He's drove in big run after big run already this year.

Anderson is nothing but potential at this point, and for the last time, we can't waste that spot in the lineup again waiting for him to come around. It may take him another year or two to finally reach his potential, we don't have time for it.

thedudeabides
04-27-2007, 12:57 AM
Then KW better get on the horn and find a new 5th starter and some bullpen help. If they can't afford to let Anderson learn on the job they surely can't afford to let Danks, Masset, and Logan do the same. Those guys all will have many more opportunities to negatively effect game outcomes than the 9th guy in the lineup..

I'm not a fan of Logan, but I have seen Masset and Danks contribute to the team, and they look to contribute more as the year goes on. I don't see the same in Anderson. I hope I'm wrong. I don't have a problem with working in young players. In fact, I see it as a necessity. I like what Erstad brings and I think he'll continue to hit better. I'm not sure what to do with Anderson except hope he starts improving, in the limited chances he gets, until it clicks. It's a tough call on what to do with him. I believe they're doing the right thing now by starting Erstad. That could change.

chitownhawkfan
04-27-2007, 03:24 AM
It just amazes me that people look at the situation with Ozzie, the only manager who has brought us a world championship in our lifetimes, and Anderson, a rookie who has accomplished absolutely not a ****ing thing, and come to the conclusion that it's Ozzie who's wrong.

I don't get it either, hmmmmm on one side we have the best manager in baseball, on the other side we have someone who has yet to do ****. People on this board talk about him like he's Dimaggio in CF. He's average and cant hit his weight, we'd be lucky if he turns out to be Singleton good, I'm thinking more along the lines of Shawn Abner. Maybe its his boyish good looks and curly hair, other than that???

Grzegorz
04-27-2007, 04:51 AM
It just amazes me that people look at the situation with Ozzie, the only manager who has brought us a world championship in our lifetimes, and Anderson, a rookie who has accomplished absolutely not a ****ing thing, and come to the conclusion that it's Ozzie who's wrong.

Wow, Ozzie sure has built up some capital in some peoples eyes. Maybe you'd want him as your boss or your employers spokesperson?


You know absolutely nothing about what's going on in the clubhouse, nothing about what goes on between Anderson and the coaching staff, between Anderson and the other players. And then, if Ozzie did spell out his problems with Anderson, you'd be howling about how "that stuff should be kept in the clubhouse" and "Ozzie is throwing BA under the bus" (currently on the top-ten list of hackneyed phrases, by the way.)

Unless you can give sourced contacts you're working off hearsay too. Listen, if BA is lazy and disrespectful ship him down or trade him. But, in the meantime lets not hear about how great Ozzie is; he's part of the Chicago White Sox he is not the Chicago White Sox.

Hints are given; coaches criticize "young players" who are watching TV before games instead of going over available tapes of the opposing pitcher. Read between the lines, people.

Cite a source... IF this story is true did BA review tapes of the opposing pitcher earlier in the day? Did he not view them at all? Unless you have proof positive of what happened you're contributing to this confusion too.

Listen, with Ozzie you know what you get. He gets himself in trouble no doubt about that. But with Anderson there is a whole story to be told. We've heard bit and pieces of that story.

oeo
04-27-2007, 05:27 AM
Listen, with Ozzie you know what you get. He gets himself in trouble no doubt about that. But with Anderson there is a whole story to be told. We've heard bit and pieces of that story.

We've heard 'bits and pieces' that are automatically assumed that Ozzie hates Brian. I honestly don't think it's anything personal. I've seen Brian slack, and Ozzie doesn't like when his guys slack. Whether Brian works his ass off to gain Ozzie's trust, we'll see, but Ozzie isn't a guy that will leave one of his players out to dry like most people here are trying to make it look. I have never seen that from him in his three years as manager, and he's centered too much around team to even believe that he would do that.

Tragg
04-27-2007, 07:33 AM
If anything, Erstad has shown over the past week that these last few years were a fluke. He's drove in big run after big run already this year.
.
Unless the past week was the fluke. We'll find out. Podesednik's numbers were modest - let's see if he can best those; or, if Ozzie moves him back to 2 and demotes Iguchi back down to 8, then see if he can meet that .340 OBP and 15 homers that Iguchi provided.

And when you bat lead-off, you get the most at bats on the team - and you have some mighty fine protection used on you, like Iguchi (who also has heated up once moved up in the batting. order) and Thome.

If his bunting and hitting to the right side is so valuable, then he should be batting 7, 8 or 9, because that skill is wasted leading off - no one's on base to start the game and, generally you will lead-off more innings with no one on base than any other spot in the order (because the player in front of him - the 9 hole hitter - will make the most outs). And, of course, bunting in front of the best hitters on the team is not done too often, and it's generally not a good idea to have an automatic out in front of Thome, Dye and Konerko.

I think he's valuable because he hacks away at everything, Ozzie-style.

gobears1987
04-27-2007, 07:46 AM
Wow, Ozzie sure has built up some capital in some peoples eyes. Maybe you'd want him as your boss or your employers spokesperson?


He's won us a World Series. What the hell has Brian Anderson done other than strike out over 100 times with only 400 ABs?

The better question is how the hell has BAAA built up so much capital in other people's eyes while Ozzie has none.

champagne030
04-27-2007, 08:25 AM
You know absolutely nothing about what's going on in the clubhouse, nothing about what goes on between Anderson and the coaching staff, between Anderson and the other players. And then, if Ozzie did spell out his problems with Anderson, you'd be howling about how "that stuff should be kept in the clubhouse" and "Ozzie is throwing BA under the bus" (currently on the top-ten list of hackneyed phrases, by the way.)


Actually, I do know some of what went on in the clubhouse. It was personal last season. Since nothing has changed this season, it appears that it's still personal.

ondafarm
04-27-2007, 08:50 AM
Anybody who's seen BA's ABs this year knows that more playing time will not fix him this season. IMO, he's at least 2 years away from being an average MLB hitter, ie better than Erstad. He truly looks clueless. . . .

I guess I'm absolutely nobody and the facts that I used to be a pretty fair minor league catcher and knew how to get guys out prove absolutely nothing, but IMHO you don't know squat.

I saw all of BA's at-bats when he was DH and he looked exactly like what he was, a guy who hasn't sniffed the lineup for weeks. His timing is off and the only way to get it back is game at-bats. In one particular at bat he'd worked the count full and he fouled off a fastball, straight back. Then he fouled off a hard slider, again straight back. Then Rodriguez called a change, Durbin shook him off and IRod repeated the call for a change. He got it and BA missed it badly.

What does this mean?

Fouling balls straight back means the batter has the timing, but just missing squaring the ball up. BA could handle both of Durbin's hard pitches, but his timing isn't there, so he couldn't handle the change of pace.

The solution is more at-bats and not at the DH spot. As a DH all you have to think about is your hitting and that's the last thing you want when in a slump.

I've seen managers like Ozzie with an in-your-face kind of style. Laid back guys, like BA evidently is, drive them absolutely crazy, and vice-versa. With a sudden rash of injuries, KW needs to tell Ozzie to knock it off, put the kid in center and Erstad in LF and get him consistent ABs. That is the solution.

As for the people who suggest trading him for a bag of balls, are you the same guys who proposed trading Konerko for the same a few years ago?

The Immigrant
04-27-2007, 08:53 AM
Then KW better get on the horn and find a new 5th starter and some bullpen help. If they can't afford to let Anderson learn on the job they surely can't afford to let Danks, Masset, and Logan do the same. Those guys all will have many more opportunities to negatively effect game outcomes than the 9th guy in the lineup..

Please, logic and reason have no place in this thread.

jabrch
04-27-2007, 09:00 AM
It just amazes me that people look at the situation with Ozzie, the only manager who has brought us a world championship in our lifetimes, and Anderson, a rookie who has accomplished absolutely not a ****ing thing, and come to the conclusion that it's Ozzie who's wrong.

You know absolutely nothing about what's going on in the clubhouse, nothing about what goes on between Anderson and the coaching staff, between Anderson and the other players. And then, if Ozzie did spell out his problems with Anderson, you'd be howling about how "that stuff should be kept in the clubhouse" and "Ozzie is throwing BA under the bus" (currently on the top-ten list of hackneyed phrases, by the way.)

Hints are given; coaches criticize "young players" who are watching TV before games instead of going over available tapes of the opposing pitcher. Read between the lines, people.

Well said Nellie. We have a lot of know-it-alls here who have already said that they would do a better job than Ozzie or Kenny. I'm still surprised with as smart as they are, and as much time as they spend here, nobody has hired them to work for a major league club.

Guillen and Willliams have won a WS, built one of the better young teams in baseball that is poised to be a contender for a while, and have built one of the deeper farm systems in terms of young pitching. I trust they know a lot more about BA than anyone here does.

SBSoxFan
04-27-2007, 09:20 AM
I'm still surprised with as smart as they are, and as much time as they spend here, nobody has hired them to work for a major league club.

That's why they can't get hired. They spend too much time here to hold down a job.

HITMEN OF 77
04-27-2007, 09:26 AM
The best news for BA is they are playing Seattle in Seattle next week. He always hits well there. Maybe those 2 games can get him back on track and restore some confidence.

oeo
04-27-2007, 09:29 AM
I guess I'm absolutely nobody and the facts that I used to be a pretty fair minor league catcher and knew how to get guys out prove absolutely nothing, but IMHO you don't know squat.

I saw all of BA's at-bats when he was DH and he looked exactly like what he was, a guy who hasn't sniffed the lineup for weeks. His timing is off and the only way to get it back is game at-bats. In one particular at bat he'd worked the count full and he fouled off a fastball, straight back. Then he fouled off a hard slider, again straight back. Then Rodriguez called a change, Durbin shook him off and IRod repeated the call for a change. He got it and BA missed it badly.

What does this mean?

Fouling balls straight back means the batter has the timing, but just missing squaring the ball up. BA could handle both of Durbin's hard pitches, but his timing isn't there, so he couldn't handle the change of pace.

The solution is more at-bats and not at the DH spot. As a DH all you have to think about is your hitting and that's the last thing you want when in a slump.

I've seen managers like Ozzie with an in-your-face kind of style. Laid back guys, like BA evidently is, drive them absolutely crazy, and vice-versa. With a sudden rash of injuries, KW needs to tell Ozzie to knock it off, put the kid in center and Erstad in LF and get him consistent ABs. That is the solution.

As for the people who suggest trading him for a bag of balls, are you the same guys who proposed trading Konerko for the same a few years ago?

How about his ever-popular, "jump out of the way of a strike?" Is that just being rusty too? Because I'm pretty sure I could step into the batter's box and not jump out of the way of a ball over the plate. He has more than timing issues, something's screwed up in the 'ole noggin, and this isn't the time or the place to fix it.

PatK
04-27-2007, 09:40 AM
I guess I'm absolutely nobody and the facts that I used to be a pretty fair minor league catcher and knew how to get guys out prove absolutely nothing, but IMHO you don't know squat.

I saw all of BA's at-bats when he was DH and he looked exactly like what he was, a guy who hasn't sniffed the lineup for weeks. His timing is off and the only way to get it back is game at-bats. In one particular at bat he'd worked the count full and he fouled off a fastball, straight back. Then he fouled off a hard slider, again straight back. Then Rodriguez called a change, Durbin shook him off and IRod repeated the call for a change. He got it and BA missed it badly.

What does this mean?

Fouling balls straight back means the batter has the timing, but just missing squaring the ball up. BA could handle both of Durbin's hard pitches, but his timing isn't there, so he couldn't handle the change of pace.



There's times he's not even close to hitting average, straight fastballs.

kitekrazy
04-27-2007, 09:41 AM
Something that impressed me about Rowand was when he was hitting he spend long hours in the morning taking batting practice.

With guaranteed contracts in the majors, I question if some players actually do anything to improve on their own.

spiffie
04-27-2007, 09:44 AM
Actually, I do know some of what went on in the clubhouse. It was personal last season. Since nothing has changed this season, it appears that it's still personal.
Did you overhear Kenny Williams telling the stories on his cellphone at the baggage claim area of an airport?

balke
04-27-2007, 09:46 AM
Hints are given; coaches criticize "young players" who are watching TV before games instead of going over available tapes of the opposing pitcher. Read between the lines, people.

Its funny that like a week after that during Buehrle's NO-NO they said MB and PK were watching the Yankees game in-between innings and before the game... and somehow that was okay. Anderson probably wasn't even playing that day he was found not watching tapes.

ondafarm
04-27-2007, 10:04 AM
There's times he's not even close to hitting average, straight fastballs.

Since returning to Chicago, I've been watching all of the Sox games pretty closely, and I haven't seen this at all.

soxfan13
04-27-2007, 10:07 AM
Its funny that like a week after that during Buehrle's NO-NO they said MB and PK were watching the Yankees game in-between innings and before the game... and somehow that was okay. Anderson probably wasn't even playing that day he was found not watching tapes.

I am sure if BA was as established and proven as PK and MB, it wouldnt be a problem.

southside rocks
04-27-2007, 10:13 AM
Its funny that like a week after that during Buehrle's NO-NO they said MB and PK were watching the Yankees game in-between innings and before the game... and somehow that was okay. Anderson probably wasn't even playing that day he was found not watching tapes.

I think it was Buehrle and AJ Pierzynski who were going into the clubhouse between innings of MB's no-hitter and watching the Yanks game.

Not quite the same thing as a young player who fails to prepare for a game by watching starter tapes, whether or not he's on the lineup card. Not starting doesn't mean a player won't get into the game later. Preparation is a must, not something that can be ditched in favor of a TV show.

southside rocks
04-27-2007, 10:16 AM
It just amazes me that people look at the situation with Ozzie, the only manager who has brought us a world championship in our lifetimes, and Anderson, a rookie who has accomplished absolutely not a ****ing thing, and come to the conclusion that it's Ozzie who's wrong.

You know absolutely nothing about what's going on in the clubhouse, nothing about what goes on between Anderson and the coaching staff, between Anderson and the other players. And then, if Ozzie did spell out his problems with Anderson, you'd be howling about how "that stuff should be kept in the clubhouse" and "Ozzie is throwing BA under the bus" (currently on the top-ten list of hackneyed phrases, by the way.)

Hints are given; coaches criticize "young players" who are watching TV before games instead of going over available tapes of the opposing pitcher. Read between the lines, people.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Good post. Thank you.

WhiteSoxNL
04-27-2007, 10:41 AM
I've been lurking around these forums for quite some time, though I've only joined recently in order to post this. I used to enjoy reading the opinions, but I have to say that recently a lot has gone way past irrational.

I seriously can't understand the fascination with Ozzie. Saying he brought a World Championship to Chicago and thus should be given carte blanche in everything is an argument used by many to justify giving Anderson just 17 ABs in just under a month. That is like saying that no matter how much Cotts, Politte, Harris, Marte, or any other spare part from that championship team sucked, they brought a WS trophy, so they can do anything they want and still we couldnít hold them accountable (yes, I know they are no longer on the team, just making a point).

It is akin to saying that Buerhle can suck for the rest of the year, but because he threw a no hitter he should get a Barry Zito contract.

Ozzie is definitely mishandling Anderson, there is no justification for the little playing time he has received. A 25 year old with good career minor league numbers should not be wasted on the bench. I will not go into whether Anderson should play over Erstad, but he has only 17 Abs, 17! In 20 games!

That is surely not enough playing time to make a positive contribution to the team. So, get a player with less ceiling, worse stats, that can play defense (a.k.a. Terrero) to fill that spot. What difference does it make? Anderson isnít going to play anyway. He should be sent to the minors, that way, even if he won't ever make it with the team, he could at least get hot, increase his trade value and the team could get something in return. But right now, his value is probably around zero and everybody loses.

jabrch
04-27-2007, 11:26 AM
I seriously can't understand the fascination with Ozzie. Saying he brought a World Championship to Chicago and thus should be given carte blanche

No - that's not the case. There is a difference between the role that a player plays, and the evaluation of their ever changing performance/skills and the role a manager plays, and the value of their experience/knowledge.

Nobody is saying Ozzie deserves carte blanche. People are saying they trust that Ozzie knows a lot more about what is actually going on with BA than you or I do.

There very well might be more to this than what you see. Guillen and Williams have access to more information and will make decisions based on that. They want to win very badly - so you have to assume they will do what they believe is in the club's best interest. Obivously at this point, they don't believe that playing BA is the best option.

I trust OG/KW more than anyone to make those decisions because they have more information than anyone, and they have proven adept in making those calls in the past and in the present.

Where's all the people bitching about trading McCarthy? How bout Garcia? Gload? Cotts? KW and OG have assembled a team that is a game out of first place. I'm happy with the job they have done. If they believe that BA is not best suited to play, I'm sure there is a very good reason. They know a lot more than anyone else about the situation.

Nellie_Fox
04-27-2007, 11:38 AM
Nobody is saying Ozzie deserves carte blanche. People are saying they trust that Ozzie knows a lot more about what is actually going on with BA than you or I do.Additionally, I'm saying that with incomplete information, if you have to give the benefit of the doubt to someone, who has earned that benefit and who has not?

ondafarm
04-27-2007, 11:38 AM
No - that's not the case. There is a difference between the role that a player plays, and the evaluation of their ever changing performance/skills and the role a manager plays, and the value of their experience/knowledge.

Nobody is saying Ozzie deserves carte blanche. People are saying they trust that Ozzie knows a lot more about what is actually going on with BA than you or I do.

There very well might be more to this than what you see. Guillen and Williams have access to more information and will make decisions based on that. They want to win very badly - so you have to assume they will do what they believe is in the club's best interest. Obivously at this point, they don't believe that playing BA is the best option.

I trust OG/KW more than anyone to make those decisions because they have more information than anyone, and they have proven adept in making those calls in the past and in the present.

Where's all the people bitching about trading McCarthy? How bout Garcia? Gload? Cotts? KW and OG have assembled a team that is a game out of first place. I'm happy with the job they have done. If they believe that BA is not best suited to play, I'm sure there is a very good reason. They know a lot more than anyone else about the situation.


You know, normally I'd agree with you, but I think OG and KW are in sharp disagreement on BA. The sign: BA was the DH Wednesday. I'm certain that KW told OG, "Get BA in the lineup." And Ozzie, in his in-your-face kind of fashion, decided to DH our best defensive outfielder and have Erstad, Ozuna and Mack all play the field. Erstad is a solid defender, but don't tell me that either Mack or Ozuna is a better defensive outfielder than Brian.

Ozzie has been sitting BA even when he had a good match up (a middling right handed SP.) That's right sports fans, Brian Anderson best matchup is against right-handers.

I think this conflict has been going on between OG and KW since ST. OG mouthed off about sending BA to the minors and KW told him no. So Ozzie is responding by ruining BA's confidence.

Will this straighten out? Presumably, with a few guys down, Ozzie will have to get BA a little more playing time, perhaps even semi-regularly. Once BA does get some regular at-bats, he'll be fine.

oeo
04-27-2007, 12:01 PM
You know, normally I'd agree with you, but I think OG and KW are in sharp disagreement on BA. The sign: BA was the DH Wednesday. I'm certain that KW told OG, "Get BA in the lineup." And Ozzie, in his in-your-face kind of fashion, decided to DH our best defensive outfielder and have Erstad, Ozuna and Mack all play the field. Erstad is a solid defender, but don't tell me that either Mack or Ozuna is a better defensive outfielder than Brian.

Ozzie has been sitting BA even when he had a good match up (a middling right handed SP.) That's right sports fans, Brian Anderson best matchup is against right-handers.

I think this conflict has been going on between OG and KW since ST. OG mouthed off about sending BA to the minors and KW told him no. So Ozzie is responding by ruining BA's confidence.

Will this straighten out? Presumably, with a few guys down, Ozzie will have to get BA a little more playing time, perhaps even semi-regularly. Once BA does get some regular at-bats, he'll be fine.

How are you certain? Is it because you were a minor league catcher? :?:

Kenny didn't tell Ozzie he had to play him. It was either Brian or Andy Gonzalez, take your pick.

Craig Grebeck
04-27-2007, 12:08 PM
First of all, Kenny assembled this team. Ozzie did not. Kenny also assembled the 05-06 teams, Ozzie did not. Ozzie is the one who insists on not putting his team in a position to win by using his best defensive outfielder as DH. ****ing stupid.

oeo
04-27-2007, 12:11 PM
First of all, Kenny assembled this team. Ozzie did not. Kenny also assembled the 05-06 teams, Ozzie did not. Ozzie is the one who insists on not putting his team in a position to win by using his best defensive outfielder as DH. ****ing stupid.

Secondly, Ozzie is our best manager in decades. Without him and his attitude, I doubt the same team in 2005 under a different manager wins a championship (actually, without Ozzie, that team would have never been assembled...he changed the mindset of this organization in a year).

Both Ozzie and Kenny did their fair share.

SBSoxFan
04-27-2007, 12:29 PM
YWill this straighten out? Presumably, with a few guys down, Ozzie will have to get BA a little more playing time, perhaps even semi-regularly. Once BA does get some regular at-bats, he'll be fine.

I hope you're right. I mean, given the current circumstances with Pods out and Thome, Dye, and Mack ouchy, BA has to play more, right? And then we'll see what we have.

AZChiSoxFan
04-27-2007, 12:37 PM
How are you certain? Is it because you were a minor league catcher? :?:

Kenny didn't tell Ozzie he had to play him. It was either Brian or Andy Gonzalez, take your pick.

I totally agree with "ondafarm". From different quotes here and there and the way it has played out, it seems likely to me that KW and OG differ in their thoughts on BA.

AZChiSoxFan
04-27-2007, 12:39 PM
I hope you're right. I mean, given the current circumstances with Pods out and Thome, Dye, and Mack ouchy, BA has to play more, right? And then we'll see what we have.


Heck, at this point, I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Ozzie put Molina in the OF instead of BA.

SBSoxFan
04-27-2007, 12:46 PM
Heck, at this point, I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Ozzie put Molina in the OF instead of BA.

Well, he did put Gonzalez in right. Anyway, it looks like a moot point because both JD and possibly Mack sound ready to go.

"He should be ready to do whatever he has to do," said Guillen of Mackowiak. "Dye was ready to play."

PatK
04-27-2007, 01:51 PM
Since returning to Chicago, I've been watching all of the Sox games pretty closely, and I haven't seen this at all.

Steve Stone has said the same thing- Brian has a hard time keeping up with average fastballs and looks clueless at times.

I'm no expert, but I think Stoney knows a little about baseball.

chitownhawkfan
04-27-2007, 01:53 PM
First of all, Kenny assembled this team. Ozzie did not. Kenny also assembled the 05-06 teams, Ozzie did not. Ozzie is the one who insists on not putting his team in a position to win by using his best defensive outfielder as DH. ****ing stupid.

So what your saying is that this man could have won the 05 series...
:jerry
BAAA should be getting AB's. Just not on a team that is thinking about contending. If we were a ****ty team I'd be all for playing him, thank god we arent and thank god ozzie doesn't play that bum.

maurice
04-27-2007, 01:58 PM
His Spring Training stats were worthless last year, I don't see why it would have been any different this year.

Okay, ignore the fact that he hit .292 during Spring Training and ignore the fact that he also hit .292 for a two-and-a-half month stretch during the regular season in 2006 and ignore the fact that he hit .295 the previous year at AAA and ignore the fact the KW obviously thinks that he's a major-leaguer. I know . . . you hate facts and rely on your extensive psychological training:

there's something seriously wrong in his head if he's jumping out of the way of strikes.

Yeah, it's called sitting on the bench instead of facing live MLB pitching. The last time he got regular playing time, he hit fine. Opening day, he ripped a double . . . and then sat for a week. Bench any young MLB player for the better part of a month, and they'll start misjudging fastballs on the inside corner and swinging just under good pitches, fouling them back to the screen. You don't have to believe me. Hawk, DJ, Singleton, and even Ozzie already have said the same thing.
:rolleyes:

I can go up there and not jump out of the way of strikes.

No, you really couldn't do this against a MLB fastball on the inside corner. Heck, you probably couldn't do it against a 70 MPH "fastball" down the middle.

maurice
04-27-2007, 02:06 PM
You know absolutely nothing about what's going on in the clubhouse, nothing about what goes on between Anderson and the coaching staff, between Anderson and the other players.
. . .
Hints are given; coaches criticize "young players" who are watching TV before games instead of going over available tapes of the opposing pitcher. Read between the lines, people.

Pot kettle black.

You complain that people criticize Ozzie because they don't know what's going on in the clubhouse and then proceed to criticize Anderson because you "read between the lines" and unearth "hints" about what's going on in the clubhouse.
:rolleyes:

He's a "hint" garnered from "reading between the lines." Somebody mentioned Carlos Lee. Everybody seems to agree that Ozzie didn't like the way that CLee prepared and played the game, so he had KW ship him out at the first opportunity. Most people here were shocked by the move, until we learned more about the situation and KW's plan to give Ozzie the kind of grinderey team he wanted.

Read between the lines, people. If Anderson were analogous to Lee, as some people are claiming, then he would be gone already. At the very least, KW would send him down to the minors. Lee is not the only precedent for this sort of thing.

Rowandws33
04-27-2007, 02:09 PM
Maurice you are a smart man my friend...If BA had trouble hitting avg fastballs he would not have made it this far. He has hit well at every level he has been at. He will come around trust me and if he does not ill buy a case of beer for you doubters....

UserNameBlank
04-27-2007, 02:17 PM
You know, normally I'd agree with you, but I think OG and KW are in sharp disagreement on BA. The sign: BA was the DH Wednesday. I'm certain that KW told OG, "Get BA in the lineup." And Ozzie, in his in-your-face kind of fashion, decided to DH our best defensive outfielder and have Erstad, Ozuna and Mack all play the field. Erstad is a solid defender, but don't tell me that either Mack or Ozuna is a better defensive outfielder than Brian.

Ozzie has been sitting BA even when he had a good match up (a middling right handed SP.) That's right sports fans, Brian Anderson best matchup is against right-handers.

I think this conflict has been going on between OG and KW since ST. OG mouthed off about sending BA to the minors and KW told him no. So Ozzie is responding by ruining BA's confidence.

Will this straighten out? Presumably, with a few guys down, Ozzie will have to get BA a little more playing time, perhaps even semi-regularly. Once BA does get some regular at-bats, he'll be fine.
I think you're 100% correct and I've been thinking the same thing since the end of ST. Erstad wasn't going to be brought in until Pods went down and upon Pods' return Darin was supposed to get AB's here and there in CF, LF, and 1B. Kenny only brought him in due to an emergency as IMO he thought he already had a capable backup CF in Terrero.

Ozzie keeps saying how BA put himself in this position, which is funny because KW himself and Greg Walker both admitted that he wasn't ready last year and was only there for his defense. So the Sox brass comes out and says in so many words it is their fault BA failed when rushed, only Ozzie won't say that.

BA then outperforms Erstad in ST, gets endorsements from KW and Walker, and now Ozzie doesn't want to start him? On top of that, Ozzie doesn't even use BA as a CF and rarely gives him AB's. Even last year, Ozzie wanted BA to hit against CC Sabathia, Johan Santana, Kenny Rogers, etc. That isn't going to work.

Additionally I've noticed that even watching the games it seems Hawk and DJ are also sympathetic towards Brian and want to see him play more. It seems like everyone other than Ozzie and a few BA-haters here want to give him a chance.

SBSoxFan
04-27-2007, 02:19 PM
Pot kettle black.

You complain that people criticize Ozzie because they don't know what's going on in the clubhouse and then proceed to criticize Anderson because you "read between the lines" and unearth "hints" about what's going on in the clubhouse.
:rolleyes:

He's a "hint" garnered from "reading between the lines." Somebody mentioned Carlos Lee. Everybody seems to agree that Ozzie didn't like the way that CLee prepared and played the game, so he had KW ship him out at the first opportunity. Most people here were shocked by the move, until we learned more about the situation and KW's plan to give Ozzie the kind of grinderey team he wanted.

Read between the lines, people. If Anderson were analogous to Lee, as some people are claiming, then he would be gone already. At the very least, KW would send him down to the minors. Lee is not the only precedent for this sort of thing.

I agree about Anderson being somewhere NOT on the Sox major league roster if Anderson were analogous to Lee in certain respects. Ozzie has said, other than Rowand, that they didn't want to keep any of the guys they got rid of after '05.

However, I think this "grinder" thing is way out of hand. What made the Lee deal optimal is that they were able to get speed and pitching in his place, not grinders.

maurice
04-27-2007, 02:21 PM
I don't think that Ozzie hates Anderson. Ozzie just thinks that the key to winning ballgames is grindereyishness (aka playing like Ozzie played). Hence, his love for guys like Erstad, Mackowiak, Podsednik, and Perez.

ondafarm
04-27-2007, 02:24 PM
Maurice, don't get used to this but I agree with you. When I did play I faced mostly 80s mph stuff, but occasionally 90s stuff. It is hard. A lot harder than most people think. Hitting a baseball is the single hardest skill in major league sports. It takes constant practice, a mindset and a certain attitude. And no BP is not adequate practice, game time is the only real practice.

A baseball coming at you at 90mph leaves a distinct 'sizzle' sound that is hard to get accustomed to. I can only imagine what Jenks' 98mph heaters must sound like.

UserNameBlank
04-27-2007, 02:28 PM
I don't think that Ozzie hates Anderson. Ozzie just thinks that the key to winning ballgames is grindereyishness (aka playing like Ozzie played). Hence, his love for guys like Erstad, Mackowiak, Podsednik, and Perez.
I guess it all depends on what a grinder means to you, but Mack and Pods bring value to the team when healthy. Pods adds another dimension to the team that isn't there when he isn't at full strength (although Ozzie tries to bunt with players who can't bunt/steal or shouldn't be bunting/stealing all the time). Mack is a very good bench player/pinch hitter who is capable of filling in at LF and 3B without hurting the team when someone needs a rest.

I do think Ozzie has come close to managing his team to losses a couple of times this year. The one that really sticks out right now was bunting with AJ off a hardthrowing LHP in extra innings when he had already homered once and had just missed another one that same game.

kobo
04-27-2007, 02:35 PM
We were not an elite team when we went through Crede's up and downs. We're trying to win a championship, and Anderson isn't helping. I don't want to go through the ups and downs, I want to see results right now.

He was given a chance, albeit in a platoon role, last year. He hasn't shown great improvements, he needs to work on it elsewhere; we don't have time to wait a couple of years for him to reach his potential like we could with Crede. The window to win a championship with this core of players is shrinking, so he needs to get it together now, or he's going to have to wait for another shot.
I don't understand why Anderson cannot be an everyday player for this team. All anyone is focusing on is his capabilities as a hitter, nobody seems to realize that defensively Brian is probably the best outfielder the Sox have. Yes, he is struggling at the plate right now and struggled last year, there is no denying that. However, with the lineup that the Sox have and the way the pitching has been so far this year, I think the Sox could afford to have their 9th place hitter struggle a little. Noone is ever going to know just how good BA is if he does not get a chance to play everyday.

It's bull**** to say we don't have time to wait for him to come around. He plays great defense, which as we all know is very much important to the success of this team. As long as the hitters come around and start hitting like they are supposed to, I see no reason why BA should not be starting. Especially right now. I can't believe that anyone here can say with a straight face that an outfield of Mack, Erstad, and Dye gives us the best chance to win.

UserNameBlank
04-27-2007, 02:40 PM
I can't believe that anyone here can say with a straight face that an outfield of Mack, Erstad, and Dye gives us the best chance to win.

Because BAAA sucks and Erstad has been a good player his whole career.

spiffie
04-27-2007, 02:41 PM
Okay, ignore the fact that he hit .292 during Spring Training and ignore the fact that he also hit .292 for a two-and-a-half month stretch during the regular season in 2006 and ignore the fact that he hit .295 the previous year at AAA and ignore the fact the KW obviously thinks that he's a major-leaguer.
Once again you bring up a stretch of time where only about 1/4 of it shows he can hit major league pitching. The 2 months he hit well in the majors shows that he might be able to do that on a consistent basis. Everything else shows he can hit at AAA (a level many posters on here have pointed to as less challenging for hitters than AA, where Brian put up an OPS 60 points lower than his AAA numbers.) or against spring training competition.

Here's a few AAA lines for folks to consider when the whole "he hit great at AAA, he must be able to hit well" line comes up:
Willie Harris: AA: 133 G, 525 AB, 305/364/423/787 AAA: 117 G, 460 AB, 304/373/450/823
Joe Borchard: AA: 133 G, 515 AB, 295/384/509/893

Some of Brian's compatriots on the 2005 Charlotte Knights:
Jorge Toca: 302/343/518/861
Roosevelt Brown: 306/375/488/863
Greg Norton: 285/374/503

I recognize that these guys are all journeymen, whereas Brian is still a kid with potential. But to point to his AAA numbers from 2005 as a sign of what kind of hitter he is right now as a major leaguer, when other guys like that were putting up even stronger numbers than BA, it doesn't wash for me.

As for spring training, well if we're going to start looking at spring numbers equally to regular season numbers, then its time for people to stop saying Erstad hasn't hit in forever, since he hit .301 this spring. Of course, Mackowiak hit .357 and Ozuna hit .362, which would seem to imply either of them should take precedence over anderson, especially considering they outhit Anderson by 65 and 103 points respectively last season.

fuzzy_patters
04-27-2007, 02:46 PM
I don't understand why Anderson cannot be an everyday player for this team. All anyone is focusing on is his capabilities as a hitter, nobody seems to realize that defensively Brian is probably the best outfielder the Sox have. Yes, he is struggling at the plate right now and struggled last year, there is no denying that. However, with the lineup that the Sox have and the way the pitching has been so far this year, I think the Sox could afford to have their 9th place hitter struggle a little. Noone is ever going to know just how good BA is if he does not get a chance to play everyday.

It's bull**** to say we don't have time to wait for him to come around. He plays great defense, which as we all know is very much important to the success of this team. As long as the hitters come around and start hitting like they are supposed to, I see no reason why BA should not be starting. Especially right now. I can't believe that anyone here can say with a straight face that an outfield of Mack, Erstad, and Dye gives us the best chance to win.

Everyone talks about Anderson's great defense, but I have yet to see it. I see him play balls on a hop that could have been caught, and I see guys nearly run into each other because Anderson won't call anybody off. I also saw Dye give Anderson a dirty look a couple of times last year after he almost ran into him. Where is the myth that Anderson plays great defense coming from?

UserNameBlank
04-27-2007, 02:49 PM
I recognize that these guys are all journeymen, whereas Brian is still a kid with potential. But to point to his AAA numbers from 2005 as a sign of what kind of hitter is is right now as a major leaguer, when other guys like that were putting up even stronger numbers than BA, it doesn't wash for me.

I think the point was that Brian earned the opportunity to play in the majors and could very well have a future. No one is saying he is going to be great, but sooner or later an origanization has to follow through with their commitment and actually start the kid. Either that or they need to trade him and pick up a REAL CF who isn't going to fall apart while grinding his way through the season.

soxfan13
04-27-2007, 02:51 PM
Everyone talks about Anderson's great defense, but I have yet to see it. I see him play balls on a hop that could have been caught, and I see guys nearly run into each other because Anderson won't call anybody off. I also saw Dye give Anderson a dirty look a couple of times last year after he almost ran into him. Where is the myth that Anderson plays great defense coming from?

What games are you watching? Yes he has misplays here and there like anyone but he is by far the best defensive outfielder the Sox have.

UserNameBlank
04-27-2007, 02:54 PM
Everyone talks about Anderson's great defense, but I have yet to see it. I see him play balls on a hop that could have been caught, and I see guys nearly run into each other because Anderson won't call anybody off. I also saw Dye give Anderson a dirty look a couple of times last year after he almost ran into him. Where is the myth that Anderson plays great defense coming from?
JD and Pods both ran in on some plays that were supposed to be BA's last year, especially Pods. My guess is that they didn't trust their rookie CF, which certainly isn't anything new.

If BA can get to a ball in the gap, it should be his. JD doesn't have the range he used to have, and Pods well, I really don't want to see him trying to cut off BA especially with RISP. I could do without the three-hopper to 3B.

fuzzy_patters
04-27-2007, 02:55 PM
What games are you watching? Yes he has misplays here and there like anyone but he is by far the best defensive outfielder the Sox have.

In what way is he better than Erstad defensively? Is it just because most of the people on this board wrote Erstad off before the season even started, and because most of them annointed Anderson and Sweeney stars before they even made the major leagues? What games are you watching? I guarantee you that Erstad makes more plays during an average game in centerfield than Anderson does.

southside rocks
04-27-2007, 02:55 PM
Everyone talks about Anderson's great defense, but I have yet to see it. I see him play balls on a hop that could have been caught, and I see guys nearly run into each other because Anderson won't call anybody off. I also saw Dye give Anderson a dirty look a couple of times last year after he almost ran into him. Where is the myth that Anderson plays great defense coming from?


He gets a good read on the ball for the most part, gets a good jump, and covers a lot of ground. He can go back, which is more difficult for an outfielder than coming in is ... he will get almost anything that is hit to him. Defensively, he really is quite good.

What he's not, as you noted, is a take-charge outfielder. That was evident all of last year, to me, and you seem to have seen it also. The centerfielder has to manage the entire outfield. Last year some of the posts in defense of BA were along the lines of how tough it is to be a rookie and be 'in charge' of pros like JD and Pods. Um, a major-league centerfielder does it. Anderson didn't. That disappointed me a great deal, and it certainly didn't help Anderson's chances ...

It's really easy to label anyone who is not raving in Anderson's defense as a "BA hater" but that's not accurate. Some of us were very strongly in favor of BA in early 2006 and were very hopeful that his hitting and his command skills would both develop at the season went on. But his numbers speak for themselves, and it's odd to me that people would ever say that a player who had roughly 350 AB in his rookie season was never given a chance.

Lots of different perceptions out there, I guess. The only ones that matter, though, are Ozzie's and Ken Williams's, and we'll know soon enough what they intend to do about theirs.

RCWHITESOX
04-27-2007, 03:20 PM
First of all Pod's allways hurt not to mention he is only an average OF at best with an below average arm. Forget Anderson because all he can do is field and I would rather have Erstad because he is not only a gold glove winner at first base an the OF but he is the Sox best option at the leadoff spot for now. Erstad in center Dye in right and pray for a Left fielder who can leadoff or least hit and play defense and I believe the Sox will have most of the pieces in place to win the division.

ondafarm
04-27-2007, 03:26 PM
Everyone talks about Anderson's great defense, but I have yet to see it. I see him play balls on a hop that could have been caught, and I see guys nearly run into each other because Anderson won't call anybody off. I also saw Dye give Anderson a dirty look a couple of times last year after he almost ran into him. Where is the myth that Anderson plays great defense coming from?

BA is easily the best defensive outfielder the White Sox have. If you don't see it. it's because his defense is deceptive. He takes great routes to balls, gets great jumps and positions himself extremely well. None of those show up in web-gems, but do show up in put outs per nine innings played, better know as the range factor.

champagne030
04-27-2007, 03:48 PM
In what way is he better than Erstad defensively? Is it just because most of the people on this board wrote Erstad off before the season even started, and because most of them annointed Anderson and Sweeney stars before they even made the major leagues? What games are you watching? I guarantee you that Erstad makes more plays during an average game in centerfield than Anderson does.

That's either being silly or you've been hitting this

:bong:

hard when watching Sox games.

ondafarm
04-27-2007, 03:59 PM
What games are you watching? I guarantee you that Erstad makes more plays during an average game in centerfield than Anderson does.

And I guarentee you are wrong. This year, Erstad's RF in CF is 2.52, Anderson's is 3.0 (albeit in 3 games.)

I find that shocking that Ozzie has only put BA into 3 games in his natural position. If not for BA this is bad news for Erstad, who should be getting more regular days off.

AZChiSoxFan
04-27-2007, 04:12 PM
I guarantee you that Erstad makes more plays during an average game in centerfield than Anderson does.


WOW, just WOW. This might be the most ludicrous post I've ever read here at WSI. You do realize you're in a class by yourself?

Even the most ardent BA haters here will usually just say that he can't hit and will never hit, but I've never read any of them (until you) claim that he wasn't a great fielder.

Rowandws33
04-27-2007, 04:26 PM
it would make for better post if some people on here would actually watch the games...

DickAllen72
04-27-2007, 04:41 PM
I've never been too high on Anderson anyway, but my main problem with this whole situation is how Ozzie has apparently destroyed any trade value Anderson may have had.

We'll never know what happened behind the scenes, but it's apparent that Ozzie doesn't even care if Anderson develops or not. If that's the case, at least he should have tried to hide Anderson's flaws and hyped his potential to increase his trade value instead of telling the world that the kid is a failure.

Domeshot17
04-27-2007, 04:48 PM
Brian reminds me a lot of Brandon McCarthy. He shows enough little flashes of greatness to stay high on him, but when he gets himself a role, his pisses his chances away. I can forgive Brian for a bad rookie year, it happens. But he only had an average spring, and has been TERRIBLE this year in the time he is given. He has not earned the right to play. Im not high on Erstad starting (would have much rather had him in the 4th OF/back up 1b role playing 3 games a week).

But can you really argue this with Ozzie. Erstad has to lead off because he is the only non Ozuna option, and Ozuna has shown this year hes no better in LF then last. Atleast Erstad, when the game is tight, is able to come up with a big hit, and isn't a liability in CF. Its not like it was with Mack, good O bad D. You are trading solid offense and solid defense with Erstad for terrible offense and amazing defense of Brian.

The thing that really stands out, and I am sure the coaches see this and this is a problem, is Brian's at bats. You can almost live with 2 for 17 if 6-8 of those are good outs. Not grind outs (iguchi and erstads ability to move over runners), but hard outs good contact. Anderson goes up there, swings at 3 pitches, and either softly grounds out, pops it up to the IF, or mostly, K's. He has no confidence, no approach, and he is clearly over matched right now. He gets a couple chances to start, does nothing with it.

He probably has until Pods comes back to earn his spot as the last OF. But if this keeps up, and hes 4 for 30 come mid may, his bags are going somewhere, beit another team or charlotte.

fuzzy_patters
04-27-2007, 05:16 PM
BA is easily the best defensive outfielder the White Sox have. If you don't see it. it's because his defense is deceptive. He takes great routes to balls, gets great jumps and positions himself extremely well. None of those show up in web-gems, but do show up in put outs per nine innings played, better know as the range factor.

Range factor? Anderson's range factor/ 9 innings in center field was 2.87. That would be the lowest in Darin Erstad's entire career. His career low in center was 2.90 back in 2001.

fuzzy_patters
04-27-2007, 05:16 PM
And I guarentee you are wrong. This year, Erstad's RF in CF is 2.52, Anderson's is 3.0 (albeit in 3 games.)

I find that shocking that Ozzie has only put BA into 3 games in his natural position. If not for BA this is bad news for Erstad, who should be getting more regular days off.

And his range factor from last year would be the lowest in Erstad's entire career.

edit for source: baseballreference.com

ondafarm
04-27-2007, 05:24 PM
Range factor? Anderson's range factor/ 9 innings in center field was 2.87. That would be the lowest in Darin Erstad's entire career. His career low in center was 2.90 back in 2001.

I cited the current year numbers. Anderson's 3.0 this year is better than Erstad's 2.52 this year.

FedEx227
04-27-2007, 05:44 PM
Back in 2002, Erstad's numbers both range factor and Zone Rating were better than Anderson, but at this point in his career it's tough to say

2007 numbers, albeit VERY small sample size

Anderson
Zone Rating: .889
Range Factor: 3.00
Average of 2: 1.94

Erstad
Zone Rating: .933
Range Factor: 2.52
Average of 2: 1.72

JB98
04-27-2007, 06:18 PM
I don't understand why Anderson cannot be an everyday player for this team. All anyone is focusing on is his capabilities as a hitter, nobody seems to realize that defensively Brian is probably the best outfielder the Sox have. Yes, he is struggling at the plate right now and struggled last year, there is no denying that. However, with the lineup that the Sox have and the way the pitching has been so far this year, I think the Sox could afford to have their 9th place hitter struggle a little. Noone is ever going to know just how good BA is if he does not get a chance to play everyday.

It's bull**** to say we don't have time to wait for him to come around. He plays great defense, which as we all know is very much important to the success of this team. As long as the hitters come around and start hitting like they are supposed to, I see no reason why BA should not be starting. Especially right now. I can't believe that anyone here can say with a straight face that an outfield of Mack, Erstad, and Dye gives us the best chance to win.

Actually, Pods, Erstad and Dye give us the best chance to win. But since Pods is out, I'll stick with the Mack/Ozuna platoon in left. My face is very straight. You have your opinion, and I have mine.

I assume you are aware that Buerhle, Dye and Iguchi are free agents after this season. This might be our last hurrah with this core group. So, no, we don't have time to wait for Anderson to come around. We can't afford to let Anderson and the team suffer through his struggles now in the hopes that Anderson will figure it out sometime in the summer of 2009.

Erstad is not as good defensively as Anderson, but he has surprised me with his play. He's been better than expected. And his bat is clearly superior to BA's. Darin has had three big hits for this team in the last week: A game-winning single in Detroit, a game-tying single in KC and a go-ahead, two-out, two-run double the second game against the Royals.

BA had 400 ABs last year, and he had a grand total of two big hits for the club: A solo HR off Guardado in Seattle, and a two-out, two-run single off Rogers that tied a game against Detroit that the Sox eventually won. That's the sum total of his offensive contributions last year. Brian just is not hitting. What does he do well offensively? He doesn't hit for average. He has trouble making contact. He can't bunt. He doesn't hit home runs. He doesn't steal many bases. He doesn't see a lot of pitches. He's a two-tool player: He can catch it and throw it. To me, that's not enough to start on a contending team.

This is the last I have to say on this topic. We're beating a dead horse. Nothing I've just posted here is anything I haven't said before. My opinion is what it is. No one is going to change my mind, and I really doubt I'm going to be successful in changing anyone else's mind either.

Soxfest
04-27-2007, 06:30 PM
I would put Anderson in any July deal he is toast in Chicago!

beckett21
04-27-2007, 06:54 PM
Actually, Pods, Erstad and Dye give us the best chance to win. But since Pods is out, I'll stick with the Mack/Ozuna platoon in left. My face is very straight. You have your opinion, and I have mine.

I assume you are aware that Buerhle, Dye and Iguchi are free agents after this season. This might be our last hurrah with this core group. So, no, we don't have time to wait for Anderson to come around. We can't afford to let Anderson and the team suffer through his struggles now in the hopes that Anderson will figure it out sometime in the summer of 2009.

Erstad is not as good defensively as Anderson, but he has surprised me with his play. He's been better than expected. And his bat is clearly superior to BA's. Darin has had three big hits for this team in the last week: A game-winning single in Detroit, a game-tying single in KC and a go-ahead, two-out, two-run double the second game against the Royals.

BA had 400 ABs last year, and he had a grand total of two big hits for the club: A solo HR off Guardado in Seattle, and a two-out, two-run single off Rogers that tied a game against Detroit that the Sox eventually won. That's the sum total of his offensive contributions last year. Brian just is not hitting. What does he do well offensively? He doesn't hit for average. He has trouble making contact. He can't bunt. He doesn't hit home runs. He doesn't steal many bases. He doesn't see a lot of pitches. He's a two-tool player: He can catch it and throw it. To me, that's not enough to start on a contending team.

This is the last I have to say on this topic. We're beating a dead horse. Nothing I've just posted here is anything I haven't said before. My opinion is what it is. No one is going to change my mind, and I really doubt I'm going to be successful in changing anyone else's mind either.

I've been in the 'the jury is still out' camp on Anderson, but given his recent comments and overall poor play this year, I tend to agree with you on this one.

I'd love to see Brian succeed; he seems like a great kid. But I just don't think it is going to happen, unfortunately. I'll give Ozzie and the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt when it comes to determining playing time. He obviously hasn't earned it, or he would be playing. I don't buy the personal vendetta crap about Ozzie not liking him either; Ozzie is all about winning. He'd put his worst enemy on the field if it gave him the best chance to win.

jabrch
04-27-2007, 07:12 PM
I don't buy the personal vendetta crap about Ozzie not liking him either; Ozzie is all about winning. He'd put his worst enemy on the field if it gave him the best chance to win.

Very well said Beck. I totally agree with you on this. There's something OG and KW know that Joe Fan doesn't.

FedEx227
04-27-2007, 07:26 PM
Very well said Beck. I totally agree with you on this. There's something OG and KW know that Joe Fan doesn't.

Kenny has/is supporting BA to the fullest. If it was up to Ozzie BA would be in the minors. So don't tell me KW knows something about Brian, or else he'd be starting in CF for the Knights.

Craig Grebeck
04-27-2007, 07:26 PM
Yeah, Ozzie always plays the best players. Just ask Ross Gload.

Why do people keep saying that BA can't play on a contender? He played on our ninety win team last season that had little trouble bashing the ball. It was not HIM that made the team a third place team (his defense probably contributed a whole hell of a lot to them winning 90), it was the pitching. So suppose BA shows some progression and hits .245 with 15 HR and the same great defense, THAT's not good enough for a contender? Hell, Mendoza line with some power is alright. There's no doubt in my mind that he's better than Erstad.

FedEx227
04-27-2007, 07:32 PM
Yeah, Ozzie always plays the best players. Just ask Ross Gload.

Why do people keep saying that BA can't play on a contender? He played on our ninety win team last season that had little trouble bashing the ball. It was not HIM that made the team a third place team (his defense probably contributed a whole hell of a lot to them winning 90), it was the pitching. So suppose BA shows some progression and hits .245 with 15 HR and the same great defense, THAT's not good enough for a contender? Hell, Mendoza line with some power is alright. There's no doubt in my mind that he's better than Erstad.

Like I said in another thread

Project BA's stats out to 530 at-bats and you have a pretty decent player:

Real 2006: 365 at-bats, 23 doubles, 8 HR, 33 RBI
Projected 2006: 530 at-bats, 33 doubles, 11 HR, 47 RBI

I think we could live with that from our No. 9 hitter on the top offensive team in the AL Central.

Craig Grebeck
04-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Like I said in another thread

Project BA's stats out to 530 at-bats and you have a pretty decent player:

Real 2006: 365 at-bats, 23 doubles, 8 HR, 33 RBI
Projected 2006: 530 at-bats, 33 doubles, 11 HR, 47 RBI

I think we could live with that from our No. 9 hitter on the top offensive team in the AL Central.
And as "horrible" as he was last year, his .650 OPS is still considerably better than the (nu) messiah's.

Tragg
04-27-2007, 07:40 PM
Guillen and Willliams have won a WS, built one of the better young teams in baseball that is poised to be a contender for a while, and have built one of the deeper farm systems in terms of young pitching. I trust they know a lot more about BA than anyone here does.

They won a WS, but there's nothing very little that's young about this team. We've got some young pitching stocked away, and that's about it.

I think Ozzie's strength is keeping the team playing hard and well day after day - the most important job of the manager. He handles the pitching well to.

But he has this love for hitters who hit like he did - hack at everything, no power, and rarely walk (he actually criticized Thome for walking). Now, he kept that under control in 05; but now with ERstad, it's like he's looking in a mirror. We won with home runs in 2005; and we could execute when we had to (late innings tie games)...what we did NOT do was FORCE grinder-ball - we used it when it was smart to use it.

Now, we're forcing it. Putting Erstad at the top of the lineup is forcing it; - hacking to the right side does zero at leadoff.

chitownhawkfan
04-28-2007, 02:58 AM
Like I said in another thread

Project BA's stats out to 530 at-bats and you have a pretty decent player:

Real 2006: 365 at-bats, 23 doubles, 8 HR, 33 RBI
Projected 2006: 530 at-bats, 33 doubles, 11 HR, 47 RBI

I think we could live with that from our No. 9 hitter on the top offensive team in the AL Central.

Why should we have to settle for a dog **** hitter in the nine hole when we have someone better? At best he is slightly better than Erstad in center, so why play him?

chitownhawkfan
04-28-2007, 03:02 AM
I should go back and check, was there all of this weeping and gnashing of the teeth for Joe Borchard also?

IlliniSox4Life
04-28-2007, 03:12 AM
Why should we have to settle for a dog **** hitter in the nine hole when we have someone better? At best he is slightly better than Erstad in center, so why play him?

Because offensively he has the potential to be a pretty decent hitter. He hit ~.300 in ST and ~.300 2 of the last 3 months last season. He would have more power than Erstad if he hits more consistently. Also, I think he is better than "slightly better" than Erstad in CF. Add in that he is real young and could be a long term solution in CF. I think those are all good reasons to give him more playing time in CF.

jabrch
04-28-2007, 07:03 AM
They won a WS, but there's nothing very little that's young about this team. We've got some young pitching stocked away, and that's about it.

I think Ozzie's strength is keeping the team playing hard and well day after day - the most important job of the manager. He handles the pitching well to.

But he has this love for hitters who hit like he did - hack at everything, no power, and rarely walk (he actually criticized Thome for walking). Now, he kept that under control in 05; but now with ERstad, it's like he's looking in a mirror. We won with home runs in 2005; and we could execute when we had to (late innings tie games)...what we did NOT do was FORCE grinder-ball - we used it when it was smart to use it.

Now, we're forcing it. Putting Erstad at the top of the lineup is forcing it; - hacking to the right side does zero at leadoff.

I love to hear you bitch - provided we continue to win 7 of 9. Please keep the incessant whinning and complaining going. It dignifies the rest of us.

southside rocks
04-28-2007, 08:08 AM
But he has this love for hitters who hit like he did - hack at everything, no power, and rarely walk (he actually criticized Thome for walking).


Um, then why has he told Juan Uribe to change his style and to STOP swinging at everything a la Vladimir Guerrerro (who connects a lot more than Juan does), and to learn to wait out the pitcher and to walk more? Already this year Juan has about half the number of walks that he got all of last year, and that's because Ozzie has him learning discipline at the plate.

I agree that Ozzie seems to like players who play in the style he did, but I think it's a stretch to say that he wants them to hack away rather than get good at-bats.