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kitekrazy
04-26-2007, 02:07 PM
I don't know what goes on in the Sox minor league systems. I only hear bits from this site.

Wasn't Joe Borchard predicted to be a big league talent? Is Brian Anderson going in the same direction?

Are the Sox doing a bad job in drafting top picks?

Are the Sox like the Cubs except they make basket cases of pitchers and the Sox are doing it with outfielders?

I wonder how these players get this way. I know there is an argument Anderson should be in the minors. By keeping him up here, is that any indication the organization has given up on him?

I'm really puzzled by this. If Kenny likes "grinders" is the farm system developing players like that? There seems to be trades for a team's minor league pitchers and they seem to trust in them instead of their own players. Are there any potential lead off hitters or guys that can steal bases?

I wouldn't be surprised if this is like this in the whole league. Maybe the outrageous prices for free agency is the telling tale. There seems to be a lot of players that do one thing well and the rest is below average like base running and defense. The art of bunting is dead.

fuzzy_patters
04-26-2007, 02:32 PM
I don't know what goes on in the Sox minor league systems. I only hear bits from this site.

Wasn't Joe Borchard predicted to be a big league talent? Is Brian Anderson going in the same direction?

Are the Sox doing a bad job in drafting top picks?

Are the Sox like the Cubs except they make basket cases of pitchers and the Sox are doing it with outfielders?

I wonder how these players get this way. I know there is an argument Anderson should be in the minors. By keeping him up here, is that any indication the organization has given up on him?

I'm really puzzled by this. If Kenny likes "grinders" is the farm system developing players like that? There seems to be trades for a team's minor league pitchers and they seem to trust in them instead of their own players. Are there any potential lead off hitters or guys that can steal bases?

I wouldn't be surprised if this is like this in the whole league. Maybe the outrageous prices for free agency is the telling tale. There seems to be a lot of players that do one thing well and the rest is below average like base running and defense. The art of bunting is dead.

It is like this in the whole league. Only a percentage of top prospects ever pan out. People used to say that Montreal had the best farm system because they turned out so many major league players. The truth was that bad teams like the Expos could afford to run out a whole bunch of young players, and odds are that a few guys will pan out if you play enough young players. Nobody remembers all of the guys that didn't pan out. Everybody has their share.

102605
04-26-2007, 02:50 PM
Wasn't Joe Borchard predicted to be a big league talent? Is Brian Anderson going in the same direction?

Except Borchard is good enough to be on a MLB roster right now.

maurice
04-26-2007, 03:12 PM
Yet another new thread on Brian Anderson.
:rolleyes:

> Wasn't Joe Borchard predicted to be a big league talent?

Yes. He was very good up to AA ball and then fell apart. He may or may not be putting it together now at age 28. He certainly has plenty of talent.

> Is Brian Anderson going in the same direction?

Probably not. Anderson actually had success in his short stint at AAA. Borchard struggled at AAA, despite numerous chances.

> Are the Sox doing a bad job in drafting top picks?

Maybe. They always draft in the lower part of the 1st round, so that doesn't help. It's unrealistic to expect the vast majority of draft picks to excel right away. Anderson and all the 1st-round picks after him have done well in the minors. Only time will tell which ones will become productive major leaguers.

> Are the Sox like the Cubs except they make basket
> cases of pitchers and the Sox are doing it with outfielders?

Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, Mike Cameron, and Aaron Rowand all came up in the Sox org. The jury is still out on Jeremy Reed, Chris Young, Anderson, Sweeney, Cunningham, etc. I seriously doubt that anybody in the Sox org made them "basket cases," though Ozzie is trying.

> By keeping him up here, is that any indication the
> organization has given up on him?

That doesn't make any sense. The Sox kept Borchard at AAA for years before giving up on him. If anything, it means that KW strongly disagrees with some of the more vocal critics on this board.

> If Kenny likes "grinders" is the farm system developing players like that?

It depends on what "grinders" means. When Razor was a minor-league manager, he put on a lot of plays (bunts, straight steals, double steals, hit-and-runs, etc.). Even the middle-of-the-order hitters were expected to do these things well. If guys like Valido, Getz, and Lopez make it in the bigs, they'll probably be considered "grinders."

> Are there any potential lead off hitters or guys that can steal bases?

Lots of Sox prospects "can steal bases," though most of them aren't burners or prototypical leadoff hitters. Owens is a leadoff hitter, though many dispute whether he'll be a MLB leadoff hitter. Cunningham currently is batting leadoff.

Tragg
04-26-2007, 07:20 PM
. He may or may not be putting it together now at age 28. He certainly has plenty of talent.

Coop is oft credited as the reason for Thornton being a good player for us and a terrible for Seattle.

What about the hitting coach between us and Florida? Is that a factor there?

UserNameBlank
04-26-2007, 07:48 PM
Maybe. They always draft in the lower part of the 1st round, so that doesn't help. It's unrealistic to expect the vast majority of draft picks to excel right away. Anderson and all the 1st-round picks after him have done well in the minors. Only time will tell which ones will become productive major leaguers.
The '04 draft (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/team/draft.jsp?c_id=cws&year=04) is looking pretty nice so far...

Lumsden alone already got us MacDougal. Gio got us Thome and we got him back for a declining Freddy. Plus Fields, Whisler, Egbert, Liotta, Lucy, Russell...

At the very least these guys should net us some decent major leaguers via trade.

Edit: 2002 was pretty decent too. Ring, Haigwood, Reed, Rupe, LaMura, and McCarthy helped get us Robbie Alomar, Jim Thome, Freddy Garcia, Carl Everett, Sandy Alomar, John Danks, and Nick Massett. Plus Tracey and Jay Marshall came out of that draft and made the majors, and Boone Logan also who is on our team now. I'd say that was overall a pretty good draft.

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 09:44 PM
The '04 draft (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/team/draft.jsp?c_id=cws&year=04) is looking pretty nice so far...

Lumsden alone already got us MacDougal. Gio got us Thome and we got him back for a declining Freddy. Plus Fields, Whisler, Egbert, Liotta, Lucy, Russell...

At the very least these guys should net us some decent major leaguers via trade.

Edit: 2002 was pretty decent too. Ring, Haigwood, Reed, Rupe, LaMura, and McCarthy helped get us Robbie Alomar, Jim Thome, Freddy Garcia, Carl Everett, Sandy Alomar, John Danks, and Nick Massett. Plus Tracey and Jay Marshall came out of that draft and made the majors, and Boone Logan also who is on our team now. I'd say that was overall a pretty good draft.

But isn't it sad that we have to look to our drafts to find guys we GOT for prospects. Eventually, you have to develop your own guys.

Of the teams that made the playoffs last year:

Yankees (Cano), Minnesota (Mauer & Morneau), Detroit (Granderson), Oakland (Swisher) and Mets (Reyes & Wright) all had tremendous contributions from their offensive prospects. You can even take the Dodgers with Russell Martin as well.

DrCrawdad
04-26-2007, 09:52 PM
The '04 draft (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/team/draft.jsp?c_id=cws&year=04) is looking pretty nice so far...

Lumsden alone already got us MacDougal. Gio got us Thome and we got him back for a declining Freddy. Plus Fields, Whisler, Egbert, Liotta, Lucy, Russell...

At the very least these guys should net us some decent major leaguers via trade.

Edit: 2002 was pretty decent too. Ring, Haigwood, Reed, Rupe, LaMura, and McCarthy helped get us Robbie Alomar, Jim Thome, Freddy Garcia, Carl Everett, Sandy Alomar, John Danks, and Nick Massett. Plus Tracey and Jay Marshall came out of that draft and made the majors, and Boone Logan also who is on our team now. I'd say that was overall a pretty good draft.


http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_460274.jpg
Lumsden's (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Tyler%2520Lumsden&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=460274) not off to a great start with his 8.83 ERA.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_434666.jpg
Rupe (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Josh%2520Rupe&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=434666) has a 4.24 ERA so far.

oeo
04-26-2007, 09:54 PM
But isn't it sad that we have to look to our drafts to find guys we GOT for prospects. Eventually, you have to develop your own guys.

Of the teams that made the playoffs last year:

Yankees (Cano), Minnesota (Mauer & Morneau), Detroit (Granderson), Oakland (Swisher) and Mets (Reyes & Wright) all had tremendous contributions from their offensive prospects. You can even take the Dodgers with Russell Martin as well.

Is Joe Crede ringing a bell? Without him we would have never won in 2005.

Not to mention guys like Rowand, Cameron, and C. Lee are all products of our system (edit: I see were already mentioned).

UserNameBlank
04-26-2007, 10:00 PM
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_460274.jpg
Lumsden's (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Tyler%2520Lumsden&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=460274) not off to a great start with his 8.83 ERA.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_434666.jpg
Rupe (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Josh%2520Rupe&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=434666) has a 4.24 ERA so far.
True, and none of those players I mentioned have gone on to be great players, but we got good value from them while we could.

A couple of years from now you'll be saying the same thing about most of the current group of drafted starters including Broadway, McCullogh, Whisler, Russell, Egbert, Phillips, Haeger, Honel, Gio, etc., but at that point it won't matter since KW will have traded most of these guys for major leaguers anyway.

UserNameBlank
04-26-2007, 10:20 PM
But isn't it sad that we have to look to our drafts to find guys we GOT for prospects. Eventually, you have to develop your own guys.

Of the teams that made the playoffs last year:

Yankees (Cano), Minnesota (Mauer & Morneau), Detroit (Granderson), Oakland (Swisher) and Mets (Reyes & Wright) all had tremendous contributions from their offensive prospects. You can even take the Dodgers with Russell Martin as well.
As long as the Sox have good players I really don't care how we get them. On the one side you like to develop your own players because it is cheaper both in terms of money and talent, but on the flip side a team also has to deal with the ups and downs of development. On top of that if you don't hit the jackpot with a certain player you've developed, you now have to go out and either trade your talent to fill a hole or spend the money to do the same. Meanwhile the major league team takes the hit. If the Sox go out and pick up the veterans they need here and there with their prospects, as long as they pick up a young established player here and there as well I have no complaints. Get the good players anyway you can.

Superstars like those you've mentioned minus Granderson and Swisher are just hard to come by to begin with. As someone else mentioned, Carlos Lee, Maggs, and Buehrle all came from within. Ditto Crede, so the Sox have definitely developed some big name players.

maurice
04-26-2007, 10:30 PM
But isn't it sad that we have to look to our drafts to find guys we GOT for prospects.

No, I don't think so, especially when you trade them for BETTER prospects from a team with lower draft picks. See McCarthy for Danks, Massett & Rasner. Heck, KW spent the past 12 mos. picking up other teams' 1st round picks.

FedEx227
04-26-2007, 10:40 PM
No, I don't think so, especially when you trade them for BETTER prospects from a team with lower draft picks. See McCarthy for Danks, Massett & Rasner. Heck, KW spent the past 12 mos. picking up other teams' 1st round picks.

Oh I'm in no way bashing what Kenny did this past offseason. I was definitely excited that Kenny has gotten on a roll of jacking other guys first rounders and misfits. But there comes a time when you are really going to need to have some developement from the minor leagues. I mean like actually turning Rasner into a hell of a player. Not just taking fringe major leaguers fixing their problems and making them good, but being able to have a 21-23 year old guy out there contributing day in and day out from an offensive standout.

But by no means am I badmouthing the recent Kenny moves? I loved when he picked up Sisco, Danks, Massett, Thornton, etc. But there's no denying that we are almost forced to make these types of moves based on the lack of great scouting. Kenny said it himself this offseason that something had to be done.

kitekrazy
04-27-2007, 09:29 AM
Yet another new thread on Brian Anderson.
:rolleyes:


I figured it wouldn't take long for someone to make a wrong assumption.

I just wonder if the Sox farm systems philosophies match what Kenny Williams wants. Borchard and Anderson are two players that I question maybe the organization could have handled better.

Remember when Ruffcorn was a prospect every team wanted? Gene Lamont started him against the Cleveland Indians. That's hardly a confidence booster.

kitekrazy
04-27-2007, 09:32 AM
Is Joe Crede ringing a bell? Without him we would have never won in 2005.

Not to mention guys like Rowand, Cameron, and C. Lee are all products of our system (edit: I see were already mentioned).

Only one of them is left. We will wonder and some have already decided the Sox will not keep Joe Crede.

MisterB
04-27-2007, 10:14 AM
Except Borchard is good enough to be on a MLB roster right now.

To date Borchard has put up .230/.329/.395 in his time with the Marlins, with 13 HR and 38 RBI in 300 AB.

Is that really all that much better than the .225/.290/.359 8 & 33 that Anderson put up last year (with 3 years less experience in pro ball)?

Hitmen77
04-27-2007, 10:40 AM
Is Joe Crede ringing a bell? Without him we would have never won in 2005.

Not to mention guys like Rowand, Cameron, and C. Lee are all products of our system (edit: I see were already mentioned).

Only one of them is left. We will wonder and some have already decided the Sox will not keep Joe Crede.

What you didn't mention is that we traded:
Rowand for Thome
Cameron for Konerko
C.Lee for Podsednik

maurice
04-27-2007, 01:36 PM
I still don't get it. It's not like KW is simply buying the guys he acquires, though many other teams do this. He gets them for guys who were developed by the Sox. Sometimes he even gets the other team to give cash to the Sox. Sounds good to me.

Here're the guys who have played for the Sox this year (IIRC):
Pierzynski - FA (unwanted by anybody else)
Konerko - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Iguchi - FA from Japan (unwanted by anybody else)
Uribe - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Crede - developed in Sox org.
Dye - FA
Erstad - FA (unwanted by anybody else)
Podsednik - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Thome - acquired in trade for players developed in Sox org.
Molina - developed in Sox org.
Ozuna - FA (unwanted by anybody else)
Cintron - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Mackowiak - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. (Marte was crap before he came here) who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Anderson - developed in Sox org.
Gonzalez - developed in Sox org.
Contreras - acquired in trade for FA developed in Sox org. (see Marte)
Garland - developed in Sox org. + acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Buehrle - developed in Sox org.
Vazquez - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Danks - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Jenks - developed in Sox org. after waiver claim (unwanted by anybody else)
Thornton - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
MacDougle - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Massett - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Aardsma - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. (Cotts wasn't much before he came here) who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. (I think this one takes us back to Harold Baines)
Sisco - acquired in trade for player who was acquired for player developed in Sox org.
Logan - developed in Sox org.

When Hall is ready, that'll be a grand total of 6 FAs. The other 22 are either from the Sox org. or the direct result of Sox player develpment, including the entire pitching staff.

Also, you can't reasonably expect a 21-23 year old to rake offensively in MLB. That's the exception, not the rule.

UserNameBlank
04-27-2007, 02:03 PM
I still don't get it. It's not like KW is simply buying the guys he acquires, though many other teams do this. He gets them for guys who were developed by the Sox. Sometimes he even gets the other team to give cash to the Sox. Sounds good to me.

Here're the guys who have played for the Sox this year (IIRC):
Pierzynski - FA (unwanted by anybody else)
Konerko - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Iguchi - FA from Japan (unwanted by anybody else)
Uribe - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Crede - developed in Sox org.
Dye - FA
Erstad - FA (unwanted by anybody else)
Podsednik - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Thome - acquired in trade for players developed in Sox org.
Molina - developed in Sox org.
Ozuna - FA (unwanted by anybody else)
Cintron - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Mackowiak - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. (Marte was crap before he came here) who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Anderson - developed in Sox org.
Gonzalez - developed in Sox org.
Contreras - acquired in trade for FA developed in Sox org. (see Marte)
Garland - developed in Sox org. + acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Buehrle - developed in Sox org.
Vazquez - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Danks - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Jenks - developed in Sox org. after waiver claim (unwanted by anybody else)
Thornton - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
MacDougle - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Massett - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Aardsma - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. (Cotts wasn't much before he came here) who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. (I think this one takes us back to Harold Baines)
Sisco - acquired in trade for player who was acquired for player developed in Sox org.
Logan - developed in Sox org.

When Hall is ready, that'll be a grand total of 6 FAs. The other 22 are either from the Sox org. or the direct result of Sox player develpment, including the entire pitching staff.

Also, you can't reasonably expect a 21-23 year old to rake offensively in MLB. That's the exception, not the rule.

Great post.

Our drafts would only look bad if KW sat around and did nothing with his minor league talent. For all the players he has traded over the last few years, how many have gone on to be decent players? Most of these guys have not or will not have better careers than Rule-5 guys we lost like Majewski, Castro, Marshall, etc. Kenny has taken guys from our farm system who wouldn't have amounted to anything here and turned them around for big leaguers who help the team. That is why he is such a great GM.

Britt Burns
04-27-2007, 02:09 PM
No, I don't think so, especially when you trade them for BETTER prospects from a team with lower draft picks. See McCarthy for Danks, Massett & Rasner. Heck, KW spent the past 12 mos. picking up other teams' 1st round picks.

I totally agree. I used to be one who got all bent out of shape when KW would trade prospects...now I think it is obvious that prospects, especially ptchers, command a disproportionate value at the major league level, and if KW can exploit that, more power to him. I will say that the Chris Young trade is the one notable exception, and I still wish he hadn't traded him.

Still, Reed, Morse, and Olivo for a few years of Garcia and Floyd and Gio? That's a no-brainer. Thornton for Borchard? Think Seattle would take that one back in half a second?

And the Sox do a good, perhpas not great but certainly above average job of identifying, drafting, signing, and developing players.

PaulDrake
04-27-2007, 04:16 PM
I still don't get it. It's not like KW is simply buying the guys he acquires, though many other teams do this. He gets them for guys who were developed by the Sox. Sometimes he even gets the other team to give cash to the Sox. Sounds good to me.

Here're the guys who have played for the Sox this year (IIRC):
Pierzynski - FA (unwanted by anybody else)
Konerko - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Iguchi - FA from Japan (unwanted by anybody else)
Uribe - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Crede - developed in Sox org.
Dye - FA
Erstad - FA (unwanted by anybody else)
Podsednik - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Thome - acquired in trade for players developed in Sox org.
Molina - developed in Sox org.
Ozuna - FA (unwanted by anybody else)
Cintron - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Mackowiak - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. (Marte was crap before he came here) who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Anderson - developed in Sox org.
Gonzalez - developed in Sox org.
Contreras - acquired in trade for FA developed in Sox org. (see Marte)
Garland - developed in Sox org. + acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Buehrle - developed in Sox org.
Vazquez - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Danks - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Jenks - developed in Sox org. after waiver claim (unwanted by anybody else)
Thornton - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
MacDougle - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Massett - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org.
Aardsma - acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. (Cotts wasn't much before he came here) who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. who, in turn, also was acquired in trade for player developed in Sox org. (I think this one takes us back to Harold Baines)
Sisco - acquired in trade for player who was acquired for player developed in Sox org.
Logan - developed in Sox org.

When Hall is ready, that'll be a grand total of 6 FAs. The other 22 are either from the Sox org. or the direct result of Sox player develpment, including the entire pitching staff.

Also, you can't reasonably expect a 21-23 year old to rake offensively in MLB. That's the exception, not the rule. Wow. Stellar post.

MDF3530
04-27-2007, 04:29 PM
Wasn't Joe Borchard predicted to be a big league talent?Borchard had holes in two places: 1. his swing, and 2. his head. The Sox could've fixed #1 if he would've fixed #2. He thought the only way to get to the big leagues was to swing hard in case he hit it. The Sox traded him in spring training last year for Thornton because their patience with him ran out.