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MattSharp
03-25-2002, 12:35 PM
Based on the fact that I think in the next couple months the Ritchies for Wells-Lowe-Fogg will look terrible, what other bad trades have the Sox made in recent years or ever for that matter?


I mean we know the obvious one of George Bell for Sammy Sosa. What else do we got though......?

Cheryl
03-25-2002, 12:40 PM
I still think the Bell for Sosa trade was a good one. While Sammy may have been an arrogant pr##k when he was with the Sox, but that's all he was. I don't think Bell would win Miss Congeniality either, but he was effective in his role for the time we had him.

Moses_Scurry
03-25-2002, 12:44 PM
One trade I remember that I thought was pretty bad at the time, and there's no reason to change that thinking was when they traded Bobby Bonilla for Jose De Leon I think. If I'm not mistaken, De Leon led the league in losses the previous year or maybe two years before. Bonilla went on to have some pretty great years in Pittsburgh, helping with Bonds to lead them to 3 or 4 division titles and very close to the series. De Leon did nothing but stink up the joint for the sox. I would think that trade would be similar to them trading Joe Borchard for Steve Trachsel now.

pearso66
03-25-2002, 01:01 PM
i think the bell for sosa deal was good, the only reason sosa got better, was because he bulked up in size. bell served his purpose for us.

hmm, bad trade, myette for clayton. even if we never used myette, clayton keeps crede in the minors. plus his sub .100 ave for the first few months, makes it a crappy deal.

czalgosz
03-25-2002, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Moses_Scurry
One trade I remember that I thought was pretty bad at the time, and there's no reason to change that thinking was when they traded Bobby Bonilla for Jose De Leon I think. If I'm not mistaken, De Leon led the league in losses the previous year or maybe two years before. Bonilla went on to have some pretty great years in Pittsburgh, helping with Bonds to lead them to 3 or 4 division titles and very close to the series. De Leon did nothing but stink up the joint for the sox. I would think that trade would be similar to them trading Joe Borchard for Steve Trachsel now.

The Sox turned around and got Lance Johnson from the Cardinals for DeLeon, so it wasn't a total waste.

Another bad trade I can remember - Melido Perez, Domingo Jean, and Bob Wickman for Steve Sax. Losing Wickman alone looks terrible in retrospect.

But bad Sox deals are fairly rare, and are outnumbered by good ones, IMO - Jaime Navarro for Cal Eldred and Jose Valentin, Wilson Alvarez and Sammy Sosa for Harold Baines and Fred Manrique, a nobody utility infielder for Greg Hibbard.

Where does Steve Lyons for Tom Seaver fit into the mix?

hold2dibber
03-25-2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
i think the bell for sosa deal was good, the only reason sosa got better, was because he bulked up in size. bell served his purpose for us.


I don't mean to be overly critical, but you have got to be joking. What purpose did Bell serve? He helped us get the playoffs ONE YEAR, in which we were promptly eliminated in the first round, during which he was a huge distraction by griping about playing time. Now be honest, if Sosa wasn't on the Flubs, would you still feel the same way? If he was on the Orioles or the A's or the Brewers, would you despise him so much that you would say George Bell for him was a good deal? As much as Sam-ME annoys the hell out of me and is clearly a phony PR artist, how good would the Sox lineup look with him in RF hitting between Frank and Mags? Now THAT would be a 3-4-5. The Sosa for Bell trade was a horrible trade; no matter what you say about Sosa, he is well on the way to putting up HOF numbers, and to suggest that we got the better of the deal is simply absurd.

MattSharp
03-25-2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
[B

Another bad trade I can remember - Melido Perez, Domingo Jean, and Bob Wickman for Steve Sax. Losing Wickman alone looks terrible in retrospect.


Yea, but Wickman took years to become the way he has and hes been through a bunch of teams

czalgosz
03-25-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp


Yea, but Wickman took years to become the way he has and hes been through a bunch of teams

I don't know - he was considered a top prospect for the Sox back when they traded him. He's always been solid. He really had only two bad seasons - 1993 (when the Yankees tried to use him as a starter) and 1996. I really thought at the time that Jean would be the one that the Sox missed. I was off on that one.

RichH55
03-25-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


I don't mean to be overly critical, but you have got to be joking. What purpose did Bell serve? He helped us get the playoffs ONE YEAR, in which we were promptly eliminated in the first round, during which he was a huge distraction by griping about playing time. Now be honest, if Sosa wasn't on the Flubs, would you still feel the same way? If he was on the Orioles or the A's or the Brewers, would you despise him so much that you would say George Bell for him was a good deal? As much as Sam-ME annoys the hell out of me and is clearly a phony PR artist, how good would the Sox lineup look with him in RF hitting between Frank and Mags? Now THAT would be a 3-4-5. The Sosa for Bell trade was a horrible trade; no matter what you say about Sosa, he is well on the way to putting up HOF numbers, and to suggest that we got the better of the deal is simply absurd.

Well I agree with alot of your points, I still wouldn't classify that deal as a bad one...there is no guartnee that Sosa would be the same player as he has become and with Sosa in right, then maybe you don't see Mags emerge...all sorts of what if scenarios.....Bell as been said served his purpose...we aren't the Yankees here...One Postseason does mean something here.......the baseball regular season is not something to sneeze at...if you get through it you get a shot at the Series...no better risk to take than that...Sosa was not that highly regarded at the time IIRC......I think this is akin to the Rangers in 1994(NHL) ..dealt Doug Weight to get some lesser players, but they won the cup.....A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

Lip Man 1
03-25-2002, 07:26 PM
1.) Sammy Sosa for George Bell
2.) Jack McDowell (won won in double figures for the Yanks
and Indians in 95 and 96) for Lyle Mouton
3.) Bob Wickman for Steve Sax (and Melido Perez was NOT part
of that deal)
4.) Chet Lemon for Steve Kemp (who left after one year to sign
with the Yanks)
5.) Jim Essian and Steve Renko for Pablo Torrealba
6.) Jim Spencer for Stan Thomas and Ed Ricks
7.) Pat Kelly for Dave Duncan
8.) Tony Muser for Jesse Jefferson
9.) Alan Bannister for Ron Pruitt
10.) "Goose" Gossage and Terry Forster for Richie Zisk (only
because Zisk would leave after the 77 season to sign with
Texas)
11.) Ron Kittle for Phil Bradley (who only played two months
with the Sox in 90 before signing elsewhere)

Daver
03-25-2002, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
1.) Sammy Sosa for George Bell
2.) Jack McDowell (won won in double figures for the Yanks
and Indians in 95 and 96) for Lyle Mouton
3.) Bob Wickman for Steve Sax (and Melido Perez was NOT part
of that deal)
4.) Chet Lemon for Steve Kemp (who left after one year to sign
with the Yanks)
5.) Jim Essian and Steve Renko for Pablo Torrealba
6.) Jim Spencer for Stan Thomas and Ed Ricks
7.) Pat Kelly for Dave Duncan
8.) Tony Muser for Jesse Jefferson
9.) Alan Bannister for Ron Pruitt
10.) "Goose" Gossage and Terry Forster for Richie Zisk (only
because Zisk would leave after the 77 season to sign with
Texas)
11.) Ron Kittle for Phil Bradley (who only played two months
with the Sox in 90 before signing elsewhere)

Bill Veeck was responsible for a lot of foolish trades,mostly due to the fact that he lacked the dollars to sign FA's,there inclusion is suspect to say the least. Jack Macdowell was traded for one reason,he would sign nothing less than a five year contract.You bring up the two good seasons he had after he left,you fail to mention that he was virtually out of the game after that,so were the Sox better off trading him for whatever was there or signing him to a five year deal?One of the reasons why it is diffucult to judge the true value of a trade.


But then again what the hell do I know? ©

czalgosz
03-25-2002, 07:42 PM
If Melido Perez wasn't part of the Sax deal, how did the Yankees get him? I'm 99 % sure he was part of the Sax deal.

I was sure that McDowell left as a free agent, but I could be wrong on that one.

And, as much as I was a Kittle fan, he didn't do anything for the Orioles after the Sox traded him there.

Veeck traded Zisk and Gamble for the '77 season, knowing that he couldn't afford to re-sign them, hoping that their presence would be enough to push them to a championship for the '77 season. That gamble failed. the 1977 season and the 1960 season are reasons #1 and #2 why I think that Veeck was overrated.

Lip Man 1
03-25-2002, 07:54 PM
Here's another litany of faliure!

1.) John Romano and Norm Cash for Minnie Minoso (who was
finished!)
2.) Earl Battey and Don Mincher for Roy Sievers
3.) Johnny Callison for Gene Freese
4.) RELEASING Denny McLain and keeping Bruce Howard
5.) Billy Pierce (who was a big winner in 1962) for Eddie Fisher
and Dom Zanni
6.) Tommy Agee and Al Weis for Tommy Davis
7.) Don Buford and Bruce Howard (yes the same guy) for Russ
Snyder and Louie Aparicio (remember this was 1968 when
Louie was slowing down!)
8.) Sandy Alomar Sr. for Gary Bell and Bobby Knoop
9.) Steve Stone for Ron Santo
10.) Brian Downing and Chris Knapp for Bobby Bonds (who was
traded two months later!)
11.) Barry Latman (who would make the All Star team in 61) for
Herb Score

Lip Man 1
03-25-2002, 07:59 PM
McDowell was traded after the 94 season as part of Uncle Jerry's plan to cut payroll in the wake of the labor impasse that HE helped create.

The only reason not having McDowell around was key was because in August 1996 the Sox blew a 4 1/2 game lead over Baltimore in the Wild Card race. Partly responsible for that disaster was the Sox 5th starters who that year went 5-18! Now take McDowell's wins with Cleveland and transfer them to the Sox and they probably make the post season AND if they do perhaps you NEVER HAVE THE WHITE FLAG TRADE in 97.

Just something to think about.

Perez by the way signed a free agent deal with the Yanks.

Lip

czalgosz
03-25-2002, 08:00 PM
God, could you imagine what the 1967 Sox would have been like with Johnny Callison and Norm Cash on it?

czalgosz
03-25-2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
McDowell was traded after the 94 season as part of Uncle Jerry's plan to cut payroll in the wake of the labor impasse that HE helped create.

The only reason not having McDowell around was key was because in August 1996 the Sox blew a 4 1/2 game lead over Baltimore in the Wild Card race. Partly responsible for that disaster was the Sox 5th starters who that year went 5-18! Now take McDowell's wins with Cleveland and transfer them to the Sox and they probably make the post season AND if they do perhaps you NEVER HAVE THE WHITE FLAG TRADE in 97.

Just something to think about.

Perez by the way signed a free agent deal with the Yanks.

Lip

Well, McDowell was gone, one way or another. They would have let him go via free-agency after the '95 season anyway. I seem to remember the Sox offering him a very nice 3-year deal, which he turned down, calling it "insulting".

The Sox knew he was brittle and not worth a five-year investment, which is what it would have taken to keep him.

And, without the White Flag trade in 1997, the Sox don't win 80 games, let alone 95, in 2000.

Daver
03-25-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
McDowell was traded after the 94 season as part of Uncle Jerry's plan to cut payroll in the wake of the labor impasse that HE helped create.

The only reason not having McDowell around was key was because in August 1996 the Sox blew a 4 1/2 game lead over Baltimore in the Wild Card race. Partly responsible for that disaster was the Sox 5th starters who that year went 5-18! Now take McDowell's wins with Cleveland and transfer them to the Sox and they probably make the post season AND if they do perhaps you NEVER HAVE THE WHITE FLAG TRADE in 97.

Just something to think about.

Perez by the way signed a free agent deal with the Yanks.

Lip


Doesn't change the fact that he refused to sign anything less than a five year contract with the Sox,or the fact that he was out of baseball after three years.

Lip Man 1
03-25-2002, 08:19 PM
1967? I'll go you one better, try 1964. The Sox that year won 98 games and finished ONE GAME behind the Yankees. Here was the primary lineup:
Jim Landis-CF Don Buford-2B Floyd Robinson-RF Dave Nicholson-LF
Joe Cunningham-1B Ron Hansen-SS Charlie Smith-3B J.C. Martin-C

Now here's what the Sox COULD have had

Don Buford-2B Floyd Robinson-CF Johnny Callison-LF
Rocky Colovito-RF (the Sox REJECTED a deal with KC at the winter meetings in 64 that would have brought him to Chicago for Landis and Nicholson!) Norm Cash-1B Pete Ward 3B Earl Battey C Ron Hansen SS

Now add pitchers Denny McLain, Gary Peters, Hoyt Wilhelm, Joe Horlen, Juan Pizarro, John Buzhardt, Eddie Fisher, Ray Herbert...think they MIGHT have won the pennent?

Lip

czalgosz
03-25-2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
...think they MIGHT have won the pennent?

Lip

Sheesh... and people still talk about Veeck like he was infallible. He destroyed the Sox of the 60s. They should have been a dynasty.

Lip Man 1
03-25-2002, 08:24 PM
With respect, 2000 was a fluke. I said it at the time (and many others did as well). Nothing the Sox have done since has led me to believe otherwise.

As far as White Flag, if the Sox make the playoffs in 96, and don't embarass themselves and baseball by surrendering in 97, even if McDowell wasn't around, perhaps they don't have the P.R. and credibility problems that they do now. Maybe the Cubs don't have the city by the throat to the extent they do now.

Just another one of the great what if's in Sox history (like what would have happened had Ed DeBartolo been allowed to buy the Sox in 1980 instead of Uncle Jerry. DeBartolo wound up buying the 49'ers instead!)

Lip

czalgosz
03-25-2002, 08:32 PM
I just don't see the White Flag trade as that big of a deal. None of those guys traded went on to do anything after they left, and the Sox chances of making the playoffs in '97 were slim anyway (although Reinsdorf put his foot in it by saying so publicly).

What was a bigger disaster for P.R., IMO, was letting two fan favorites in Ozzie Guillen and Robin Ventura go without so much as a fond farewell. That did more to tick me off than 10 white flags would have.

But, at some point, an organization has to bite the bullet and start rebuilding. Otherwise they become the Baltimore Orioles. The Sox certainly could have done a better job of it; they kind of shuffled through the '98 and '99 seasons and made it clear that they had no intentions of competing.

And, yes, in retrospect, 2000 was a fluke, especially as far as the pitching staff was concerned. But it was fun, and it did a lot to repair the breach between the organization and Chicago fans.

I still believe that this is a quality organization right now (light years removed from what it was five years ago, anyway) and they will be the team to beat for years to come, as long as KW can resist making any more stupid trades...

Daver
03-25-2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
With respect, 2000 was a fluke. I said it at the time (and many others did as well). Nothing the Sox have done since has led me to believe otherwise.

As far as White Flag, if the Sox make the playoffs in 96, and don't embarass themselves and baseball by surrendering in 97, even if McDowell wasn't around, perhaps they don't have the P.R. and credibility problems that they do now. Maybe the Cubs don't have the city by the throat to the extent they do now.

Just another one of the great what if's in Sox history (like what would have happened had Ed DeBartolo been allowed to buy the Sox in 1980 instead of Uncle Jerry. DeBartolo wound up buying the 49'ers instead!)

Lip

Yeah,I sure wish we still had Danny Darwin and Roberto Hernandez right now.

There is the other what if,whaty if the Veeck family would have continued to own the team? we would still be the bottom feeders of the league,as opposed to an organization poised on being a post season player for the forseeable future.

The past is gone,long live the future.

Tragg
03-25-2002, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Here's another litany of faliure!

1.) John Romano and Norm Cash for Minnie Minoso (who was
finished!)
2.) Earl Battey and Don Mincher for Roy Sievers
3.) Johnny Callison for Gene Freese
4.) RELEASING Denny McLain and keeping Bruce Howard
5.) Billy Pierce (who was a big winner in 1962) for Eddie Fisher
and Dom Zanni
6.) Tommy Agee and Al Weis for Tommy Davis
7.) Don Buford and Bruce Howard (yes the same guy) for Russ
Snyder and Louie Aparicio (remember this was 1968 when
Louie was slowing down!)
8.) Sandy Alomar Sr. for Gary Bell and Bobby Knoop
9.) Steve Stone for Ron Santo
10.) Brian Downing and Chris Knapp for Bobby Bonds (who was
traded two months later!)
11.) Barry Latman (who would make the All Star team in 61) for
Herb Score


That Downing deal reminds me of the Pete Vuckovich for whomever deal - terrible.

Bucky Dent for Oscar Gamble

Didn't we get Steve Kemp for someone like Chet Lemon?

And I don't remember his name, but Scheuler stuck us with a similar stiff, who never produced, in the early 1990s for some young talent.

Just about every Harrelson trade. Something like Britt burns for Ron Hassey (except we never got Hassey).

The Royce Clayton trade was abysmal.

Tragg
03-25-2002, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I just don't see the White Flag trade as that big of a deal. None of those guys traded went on to do anything after they left, and the Sox chances of making the playoffs in '97 were slim anyway (although Reinsdorf put his foot in it by saying so publicly).

What was a bigger disaster for P.R., IMO, was letting two fan favorites in Ozzie Guillen and Robin Ventura go without so much as a fond farewell. That did more to tick me off than 10 white flags would have.

But, at some point, an organization has to bite the bullet and start rebuilding. Otherwise they become the Baltimore Orioles. The Sox certainly could have done a better job of it; they kind of shuffled through the '98 and '99 seasons and made it clear that they had no intentions of competing.

And, yes, in retrospect, 2000 was a fluke, especially as far as the pitching staff was concerned. But it was fun, and it did a lot to repair the breach between the organization and Chicago fans.

I still believe that this is a quality organization right now (light years removed from what it was five years ago, anyway) and they will be the team to beat for years to come, as long as KW can resist making any more stupid trades...

The trouble with the Ventura deal is that Scheuler could have traded him but didn't because he didn't want to alienate the fans one year after white flag. So, instead, he lets him go in FA.
He could have gotten more talent from the White Flag - I just look at what we traded for Richie - and he was only one pitcher. Roberto Hernandez has continued to produce.
Guillen should have left the sox long before he did - he was an immense offensive liability. Same kind of O then that we have now - No walks, no OBP so there is no O in post season when you face good pitching.

Daver
03-25-2002, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


The trouble with the Ventura deal is that Scheuler could have traded him but didn't because he didn't want to alienate the fans one year after white flag. So, instead, he lets him go in FA.
He could have gotten more talent from the White Flag - I just look at what we traded for Richie - and he was only one pitcher. Roberto Hernandez has continued to produce.
Guillen should have left the sox long before he did - he was an immense offensive liability. Same kind of O then that we have now - No walks, no OBP so there is no O in post season when you face good pitching.

Roberto Hernandez has produced what?

He has proven to be borderline good enough to be tradebait for every team desperate for a closer,then traded away again.

May I remind you that the past is for cowards and losers?

rmusacch
03-25-2002, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
3.) Bob Wickman for Steve Sax (and Melido Perez was NOT part of that deal)


Yes he was. On January 10th, 1992: The Yankees trade 2B Steve Sax to the White Sox in exchange for P Melido Perez, Domingo Jean and Bob Wickman.

rmusacch
03-25-2002, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Based on the fact that I think in the next couple months the Ritchies for Wells-Lowe-Fogg will look terrible, what other bad trades have the Sox made in recent years or ever for that matter?


I mean we know the obvious one of George Bell for Sammy Sosa. What else do we got though......?

I see that we are saying in retrospect, what were the worst trades? At the time, the Bell-Sosa trade was very good for us. It is debatable if Sammy would have come anywhere close to replicating those numbers with the Sox.

rmusacch
03-25-2002, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
McDowell was traded after the 94 season as part of Uncle Jerry's plan to cut payroll in the wake of the labor impasse that HE helped create.


Lip

I thought McDowell was traded because he forced Jerry's hand. I seem to remember that he was making overtures that he would be very unhappy if he was left with the Sox.

SoxRulecubsdrool
03-25-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by daver


Roberto Hernandez has produced what?

He has proven to be borderline good enough to be tradebait for every team desperate for a closer,then traded away again.

May I remind you that the past is for cowards and losers?

Thank you for bringing that up. As I was reading through that I said the same thing. I like when we have to face R.H. It's kind of fun seeing us hit em' out of the park instead of when he was pitching for us. I remember a lot of nailbitting.

hold2dibber
03-26-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by RichH55


Well I agree with alot of your points, I still wouldn't classify that deal as a bad one...there is no guartnee that Sosa would be the same player as he has become and with Sosa in right, then maybe you don't see Mags emerge...all sorts of what if scenarios.....Bell as been said served his purpose...we aren't the Yankees here...One Postseason does mean something here.......the baseball regular season is not something to sneeze at...if you get through it you get a shot at the Series...no better risk to take than that...Sosa was not that highly regarded at the time IIRC......I think this is akin to the Rangers in 1994(NHL) ..dealt Doug Weight to get some lesser players, but they won the cup.....A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

You make some good points, butI still disagree. It's one thing to say that a trade made sense at the time and it's another thing to say that, in retrospect, it was a good trade. I agree that it seemed like a good trade at the time because it didn't seem like Sosa would ever amount to much. But, he has amounted to much, no matter how much you dislike him. And using your thinking, there's no way to say that the Sox wouldn't have made the playoffs in '93 even if they hadn't made the trade. Plus, for any trade you can say "well, if we hadn't traded him, he might not have developed into the player he developed into" or "if he had stayed, maybe some other guy we have wouldn't have developed as well." The fact remains that Sosa has become a very, very good player and Bell was a good player for (if I recall correctly) just one year. To me, that's a bad trade, no matter how you slice it.

pearso66
03-26-2002, 01:33 PM
you cant really base the sosa-bell trade on what it is today. we knew at the time bell wasnt gonna be in the majors that much longer, we got him so we could make the playoffs, and possibly the series. we had more use for him than sammy at that point. sammy had been in the league for a couple years already, and from what ive heard, and remember, he didnt seem to have that much promise. thats why i cant say that it was a bad trade

Cheryl
03-26-2002, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber

Now be honest, if Sosa wasn't on the Flubs, would you still feel the same way?

Yup. Especially after that interview in which he said if Roberto Clemente or Babe Ruth were still alive, they'd want to buy him dinner. I'd hate him if he were on our team.

czalgosz
03-26-2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl


Yup. Especially after that interview in which he said if Roberto Clemente or Babe Ruth were still alive, they'd want to buy him dinner. I'd hate him if he were on our team.

Exactly. He's a showboat, and I can't stand showboats. He can strut around and give curtain calls all day to the Cub fans, as far as I'm concerned. I'd much rather have a quiet, workmanlike player like Ordonez.

Cheryl
03-26-2002, 02:26 PM
I got interrupted before I could finish my post by people under the impression I should be working. Anyway, before anyone says anything, yes, judging baseball players by my perception of their personality is foolish. In most cases, I truly don't care what they are like in real life, or even what they say to the press. If they do their job on the field, that's generally enough for me. Sammy is one of the very few exceptions I have. It's an irrational hatred, but I just can't stand him. I realized last year that Jose Canseco in a Sox uni did nothing to lessen my irrational hatred of that man, so I can't imagine letting Sammy off that hook either.