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Frater Perdurabo
04-17-2007, 10:06 PM
This is not intended to be another Anderson debate thread. I'm an Anderson supporter, but I would be overjoyed and content with Erstad as long as he can field and hit well.

But Erstad isn't hitting well; certainly not well enough to start on a team that expects to compete for a World Series.

This is the same exact argument made by those who wanted to bench and/or demote Anderson and start Mackowiak in CF last year.

So, if Erstad isn't hitting, why is he starting? Why not start Mackowiak? If starting Mackowiak was the solution last year, why is it not a viable solution now?

Is Erstad such a superior defender that he can't be taken out of the lineup? Is he such a fantastic baserunner? Is he great at sacrificing? Makes his teammates significantly better? A track record of being a consistent .300 hitter who certainly will raise his average to .300? Thome-like power?

:kukoo:

In all seriousness, with Pods out, my admittedly imperfect solution right now would be to platoon Ozuna and Mackowiak in LF and share the leadoff duties, have Iguchi bat second, and have Anderson start in CF.

My deeppink solution would be for Seattle to fall out of the race and to trade Ichiro to the Sox.

I really, honestly, sincerely do hope that Erstad improves. But right now he is SUCKING at the plate and does not deserve to start.

CHISOXFAN13
04-17-2007, 10:09 PM
This is not intended to be another Anderson debate thread. I'm an Anderson supporter, but I would be overjoyed and content with Erstad as long as he can field and hit well.

But Erstad isn't hitting well; certainly not well enough to start on a team that expects to compete for a World Series.

This is the same exact argument made by those who wanted to bench and/or demote Anderson and start Mackowiak in CF last year.

So, if Erstad isn't hitting, why is he starting? Why not start Mackowiak? If starting Mackowiak was the solution last year, why is it not a viable solution now?

Is Erstad such a superior defender that he can't be taken out of the lineup? Is he such a fantastic baserunner? Is he great at sacrificing? Makes his teammates significantly better? A track record of being a consistent .300 hitter who certainly will raise his average to .300? Thome-like power?

:kukoo:

In all seriousness, with Pods out, my admittedly imperfect solution right now would be to platoon Ozuna and Mackowiak in LF and share the leadoff duties, have Iguchi bat second, and have Anderson start in CF.

My deeppink solution would be for Seattle to fall out of the race and to trade Ichiro to the Sox.

I really, honestly, sincerely do hope that Erstad improves. But right now he is SUCKING at the plate and does not deserve to start.

Why are you picking on one player's struggles? Look up and down the lineup. NOBODY is hitting. You torch a player who is a career .286 hitter because he's struggling, yet you want to replace him with a guy who's career average is less than his weight. Heaven forbid a guy goes through a little slump. Geez.

Anderson has looked lost at the plate in his at-bats this year. It's a team-wide issue. It's not going to get better by putting Brian Anderson and his career .219 average in the lineup.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-17-2007, 10:13 PM
What, exactly, does Erstad bring to the Sox offense?

Controversy.

SBSoxFan
04-17-2007, 10:14 PM
Why are you picking on one player's struggles? Look up and down the lineup. NOBODY is hitting. You torch a player who is a career .286 hitter because he's struggling, yet you want to replace him with a guy who's career average is less than his weight. Heaven forbid a guy goes through a little slump. Geez.

Anderson has looked lost at the plate in his at-bats this year. It's a team-wide issue. It's not going to get better by putting Brian Anderson and his career .219 average in the lineup.

That may be, but you might as well put BA out there at this point with Pods hurt. Erstad moving to LF is an option in this case too.

CHISOXFAN13
04-17-2007, 10:16 PM
That may be, but you might as well put BA out there at this point with Pods hurt. Erstad moving to LF is an option in this case too.

That I would have no problem with. The thing is, if we wanted to, we could start threads about every player right now and their offensive struggles.

You can't replace everyone. Just have to have faith that professional hitters like Konerko, Due and Erstad will get it going sooner rather than later.

Frater Perdurabo
04-17-2007, 10:17 PM
Why are you picking on one player's struggles? Look up and down the lineup. NOBODY is hitting. You torch a player who is a career .286 hitter because he's struggling, yet you want to replace him with a guy who's career average is less than his weight.

Anderson has looked lost at the plate in his at-bats this year. It's a team-wide issue. It's not going to get better by putting Brian Anderson and his career .219 average in the lineup.

I am confident Thome, Konerko and Dye will turn it around. Those guys are professional hitters and have a long track record of hitting success (despite a track record of some extended slumps, often to start a season). I would bet that AJ, Crede and Iguchi will improve, too. They aren't in the same class as Thome, PK and Dye, but they too have good track records.

Erstad's career average is inflated by a couple of very good seasons from the increasingly distant past. Now we're going to rely on him to be the leadoff hitter? Ugh. He's giving us what Anderson gave us at the plate during the first half of last season - the kind of production that got Anderson benched and for which he is still being punished.

So I ask again, why does Erstad get a free pass? Why does he get to keep his starting job? Why does he get to lead off? Because he's a grinder?

:kukoo:

Frater Perdurabo
04-17-2007, 10:20 PM
You can't replace everyone. Just have to have faith that professional hitters like Konerko, Dye and Erstad will get it going sooner rather than later.

Even the Sox admitted that they signed Erstad to be a backup outfielder. Now he's a "professional hitter?"

:rolling:

Frontman
04-17-2007, 10:25 PM
So I ask again, why does Erstad get a free pass? Why does he get to keep his starting job? Why does he get to lead off? Because he's a grinder?

:kukoo:


Just as the season started, I was one who was having a chuckle at the Brian Anderson supporters, as it felt like Rowand 2.0. But now, with Pods getting hurt, I don't understand at all why we didn't see BA in center, Erstad in left.

Maybe Ozzie was trying something tonight that certainly didn't work, but man, he needs to figure it out soon. Three weeks of bad baseball isn't fun.

I don't get it either.

BiggestFan14
04-17-2007, 10:30 PM
He is a team player that works hard, gets on base in any way, and can get a good bunt down What more do you want? Twelve games proves nothing. He has proven in his career that he is worthy of being in the lineup. So he has started slow, but you can say that for at least half of the team so far

FedEx227
04-17-2007, 10:33 PM
He is a team player that works hard, gets on base in any way, and can get a good bunt down What more do you want?

No, see... he's not getting on base at all. He's not bunting, and the team he plays for can't hit to save their life.

Where do people see these hidden traits? I'm with Frater, give me some tangible proof that he's helping this team in any way.

santo=dorf
04-17-2007, 10:36 PM
He is a team player that works hard,
Who isn't?
gets on base in any way,
Wrong.
and can get a good bunt down
So? He's not an NL pitcher. I rather have a hit or a walk.

What more do you want? Twelve games proves nothing.
You're right. 12 games of horse**** play means a lot less than 7 years of mediocre/bad play
He has proven in his career that he is worthy of being in the lineup.
False
So he has started slow, but you can say that for at least half of the team so far
...and? It's still fair to critique an individual even if others aren't getting the job done. Erstad has been awful. Crede has been awful, and AJ has been terrible.

BiggestFan14
04-17-2007, 10:37 PM
No, see... he's not getting on base at all. He's not bunting, and the team he plays for can't hit to save their life.

Where do people see these hidden traits? I'm with Frater, give me some tangible proof that he's helping this team in any way.
Like I said, it is way too early to tell. I have seen him play for a few years, he is good. Konerko and Crede are doing about as much as Erstad is, but why only complain about one of them? Everyone has the ability to get on base and get down sac bunts, but it can't possibly happen everyday.

oeo
04-17-2007, 10:39 PM
What, exactly, does Erstad bring to the Sox offense?

Right now?

****ing bad swings and strikeouts.

FedEx227
04-17-2007, 10:48 PM
Like I said, it is way too early to tell. I have seen him play for a few years, he is good. Konerko and Crede are doing about as much as Erstad is, but why only complain about one of them? Everyone has the ability to get on base and get down sac bunts, but it can't possibly happen everyday.

He is good in what way? I look at his career numbers and they scream one fluke year and 7 average years. Konerko is light years better than Erstad. Paulie has strung together 4-5 great seasons with one hiccup in the way. How can you ever compare the two?

And why complain about Erstad? Because he was the end-all to this offense. His great ways of the grinder and getting on base, and helping the team win was our great lost piece. And thus far he's done absolutely nothing while 3 capable OFers sit on the bench or play in the minors (Anderson, Sweeney, Owens).

It stems from my personal vendetta against teams grabbing washed up veterans instead of using young guys, you see it all across the league with mainly pitchers. I don't know about you but I'd rather not turn into the Baltimore Orioles sucking every last ounce of talent out of the likes of Bruce Chen, Rafeal Palmerio.

I bring up one of my earlier posts last week:

grind - er
noun

1. Term used to describe a below-average Caucasian baseball player who typically hits for a low average and low on-base percentage but makes up for it by doing 'whatever it takes to win' without any tangible evidence of the such. Player typically shaves every 3rd day to allow for increased grittiness.

BiggestFan14
04-17-2007, 11:00 PM
He is good in what way? I look at his career numbers and they scream one fluke year and 7 average years. Konerko is light years better than Erstad. Paulie has strung together 4-5 great seasons with one hiccup in the way. How can you ever compare the two?

And why complain about Erstad? Because he was the end-all to this offense. His great ways of the grinder and getting on base, and helping the team win was our great lost piece. And thus far he's done absolutely nothing while 3 capable OFers sit on the bench or play in the minors (Anderson, Sweeney, Owens).

It stems from my personal vendetta against teams grabbing washed up veterans instead of using young guys, you see it all across the league with mainly pitchers. I don't know about you but I'd rather not turn into the Baltimore Orioles sucking every last ounce of talent out of the likes of Bruce Chen, Rafeal Palmerio.
I agree Konerko is tons better than Erstad, and Erstad may not be one of the best options around. I never compared anyone, but some players are getting off to rough starts this season. But a lot of people usually do throughout their careers. I may not be the biggest expert on baseball but I do know that not everyone can just start the season on fire like A-Rod is doing.

But I still do not understand why all the blame seems to be going on Erstad right now. In my opinion, the only players on this team actually contributing consistantly on offense are Thome and Uribe. So besides them, what is anyone else doing to help win?

FedEx227
04-17-2007, 11:03 PM
But the big difference is these guys were on the team last year, and thus we've seen what they can do on a regular basis. We've seen Crede at the top of his game, we've seen Dye being an MVP candidate.

From Erstad, we've seen nothing since 2000 that indicated he's anything more than an average player, who is well into the twilight of his career. Erstad is getting flak like any free-agent signing would. You bring FAs in to improve the team, and when they put in worse numbers then the person you're replace yet you gets no flak from the coaching staff, then that's a problem in my mind.

Yes, the rest of the team is sucking greatly, but it doesn't help that your number two hitter is getting on-base at a .262 clip. Your job at the top of the lineup is to get on base to let your mashers get you in, granted most of them aren't tearing the cover off the ball, but there is no denying that .262 OBP from your number 2 hitter is a joke.

Tragg
04-17-2007, 11:08 PM
So I ask again, why does Erstad get a free pass? Why does he get to keep his starting job? Why does he get to lead off? Because he's a grinder?

:kukoo: I think so - he's an "ozzie-style" player; he hits almost as badly as Ozzie did, but he can bunt. If his name were Anderson he'd be 6 feet under Ozzie's bus right now with this level of performance. I don't think we'll see a change (unless Williams steps in).
You're right, his career averages are inflated by 1 great year and 1 good year; the other 9 or so have been mediocre or worse. And 2005 and 2006 were both bad.
If he must be in the lineup, it should have been 8 or 9 all along. 2 was ridiculous with his abilities. And leading him off - I don't know what to say - just stubborn?

Comparisons of him with Crede and Dye are misplaced. Crede and Dye have produced for the Sox; Crede and Dye have had better years and much more recently. His upside is so little that why even bother giving him the benefit of the doubt anyway? There's not much to gain.

jabrch
04-17-2007, 11:10 PM
The same way there was no reason to coronate him after 1 week, it makes no sense to bash him after 2.

Parrothead
04-17-2007, 11:16 PM
What offense? :dunno: They have none.

Dark clouds unite ! Which is worse the offense or pitching? :raincloud:

FedEx227
04-17-2007, 11:19 PM
What offense? :dunno: They have none.

Dark clouds unite ! Which is worse the offense or pitching? :raincloud:

Easy... the offense.

ThomesHomie
04-17-2007, 11:45 PM
I'm with the people about complaining to soon. Everyone is in a small slump, Erstad brings speed, and the amount of pitches he takes at time is great for everyone.

Its only been 12 games, give everyone some time.

UserNameBlank
04-18-2007, 04:37 AM
grind - er
noun

1. Term used to describe a below-average Caucasian baseball player who typically hits for a low average and low on-base percentage but makes up for it by doing 'whatever it takes to win' without any tangible evidence of the such. Player typically shaves every 3rd day to allow for increased grittiness.
I'd change the Caucasian part. Timo Perez was a grinder, too.

crazyozzie02
04-18-2007, 05:02 AM
i dont think that anyone would really be complaining if the sox were winning right now. we a team wins everybody is good. when a team is losing, thats when people start picking people out of the group and picking them apart. Lets not forget that a lot of people were hating Dye in early 2005 because he wasnt producing. Now im not sayin that Erstad is going to be on Dye's level this year or any year for that fact, but like ranger said during one of his postgame shows on the score (and he said this about bobby jenks, but can be used towards anyone) we can be concerned right now, but i would wait to worry for another couple of weeks or so. watch the sox start winning tomorrow and all of this will fade away

Boondock Saint
04-18-2007, 05:29 AM
The one positive about this thread is that it can Keep all the *****ing and **** throwing about BA and Erstad in one damned place. Seriously, we're two weeks into the season. There's a lot of baseball left, and throwing our players under the bus helps nobody.

IlliniSox4Life
04-18-2007, 06:48 AM
Well, I don't think Erstad is awful, but given Pods injury, I think BA should be given the chance to start.

If Ozzie wants Ozuna/Mack in there to lead off, I'm fine with that. Bat Iguchi second and have Erstad on the bench. We need somebody late in games who can come in when needed and lay down a bunt, and nobody on our bench seems to be great at it.

If Ozzie wants Erstad to play, then move him to LF and start BA. Have either Erstad or Iguchi lead off, and bat the other second.

itsnotrequired
04-18-2007, 07:14 AM
The same way there was no reason to coronate him after 1 week, it makes no sense to bash him after 2.

Bingo. Erstad is not this team's biggest problem right now.

For those with the "grind out" sig, you should add a tracker to record AJ's weak pop-ups to the left side. Or grounders to the right side. He already has 11 and I don't recall any of them being hit particularly hard.

kobo
04-18-2007, 07:18 AM
But I still do not understand why all the blame seems to be going on Erstad right now. In my opinion, the only players on this team actually contributing consistantly on offense are Thome and Uribe. So besides them, what is anyone else doing to help win?
People are upset over Erstad because right now he is doing the same damn thing that Anderson did last year. And unlike Anderson, he stays in the lineup. Now with Pods on the DL, why not start Anderson? I think that's what people want right now, and why not give Anderson a chance to start every day for the next 2 weeks? He needs to be given an opportunity without having to worry that he'll be benched the next day. Give the kid some confidence and see if he has improved from last year. Spot starts once a week is not going to help him.

Malgar 12
04-18-2007, 07:19 AM
Well, I don't think Erstad is awful, but given Pods injury, I think BA should be given the chance to start.

If Ozzie wants Ozuna/Mack in there to lead off, I'm fine with that. Bat Iguchi second and have Erstad on the bench. We need somebody late in games who can come in when needed and lay down a bunt, and nobody on our bench seems to be great at it.

If Ozzie wants Erstad to play, then move him to LF and start BA. Have either Erstad or Iguchi lead off, and bat the other second.

Except it appears Ozzie want to leave Erstad in CF even when Anderson plays, which boggles my mind...

" Guillen said Erstad has played well enough in center field to stay there, so Anderson has started taking fly balls in left."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070417soxbrite,1,7212737.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

soxinem1
04-18-2007, 07:21 AM
I think Iguchi will be batting second for good shortly, and evetually BA will be back in the line up.

I also see the possibility of a reliever being dealt, which may be why Logan was brought up.

Craig Grebeck
04-18-2007, 07:36 AM
Erstad is actually OPSing .483. I can't make that up. It's not just that they insist on starting him over a superior player; it's not just that they decided he's a better CF than Brian (he's nooooot); it's not just that they plan to bat the coldest hitter leadoff; it's that if he continues on this play every day pace, and doesn't get hurt along the way, he will make six million dollars next season.

Seriously, what is wrong with Ozzie Guillen?

kobo
04-18-2007, 07:46 AM
Except it appears Ozzie want to leave Erstad in CF even when Anderson plays, which boggles my mind...

" Guillen said Erstad has played well enough in center field to stay there, so Anderson has started taking fly balls in left."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070417soxbrite,1,7212737.story?coll=cs-home-headlines
What a joke. That just boggles my mind.

Rocky Soprano
04-18-2007, 08:19 AM
In today's Sun Times, Ozzie is quoted as saying that Logan might be staying even after Pods comes back.

The article then says that probably means that BA is going back down to AAA.

Great move Ozzie! :angry:

IlliniSox4Life
04-18-2007, 08:21 AM
Except it appears Ozzie want to leave Erstad in CF even when Anderson plays, which boggles my mind...

" Guillen said Erstad has played well enough in center field to stay there, so Anderson has started taking fly balls in left."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070417soxbrite,1,7212737.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

What a joke. That just boggles my mind.

I just don't get this. I have no idea how Ozzie can think that Erstad is better than Brian in CF. He's not a bad CF, and he's a heck of a lot better than Mack, but he's not as good as Brian.

IlliniSox4Life
04-18-2007, 08:22 AM
In today's Sun Times, Ozzie is quoted as saying that Logan might be staying even after Pods comes back.

The article then says that probably means that BA is going back down to AAA.

Great move Ozzie! :angry:

If Ozzie insists on not giving BA the ABs, then this is the best thing for him. However, BA should be our starting CF.

twsoxfan5
04-18-2007, 08:33 AM
Bingo. Erstad is not this team's biggest problem right now.

For those with the "grind out" sig, you should add a tracker to record AJ's weak pop-ups to the left side. Or grounders to the right side. He already has 11 and I don't recall any of them being hit particularly hard.

I couldn't agree more with the post above, why would you have a sig that pokes fun at someone on our team, just b/c you think someone else on the team should be starting. Although I think BA should be starting now since Pods is hurt I dont think he is a better option than Erstad. BA got a full season to prove that he can't hit consistently, Erstad should get more than 12 games. I hope you keep you sig up if he starts to heat up and hit well.

FedEx227
04-18-2007, 08:34 AM
I couldn't agree more with the post above, why would you have a sig that pokes fun at someone on our team, just b/c you think someone else on the team should be starting. Although I think BA should be starting now since Pods is hurt I dont think he is a better option than Erstad. BA got a full season to prove that he can't hit consistently, Erstad should get more than 12 games. I hope you keep you sig up if he starts to heat up and hit well.

We're going to party like it's 2000?

PatK
04-18-2007, 08:38 AM
People are upset over Erstad because right now he is doing the same damn thing that Anderson did last year. And unlike Anderson, he stays in the lineup.

IIRC, Anderson played pretty much the whole season.

twsoxfan5
04-18-2007, 08:38 AM
We're going to party like it's 2000?

Yes that was Erstad's best year and he probably wont have another like it, but that is not what I meant by my post. I dont understand why you hate someone on our team so much that you would put it in your sig.

The Immigrant
04-18-2007, 08:43 AM
Yes that was Erstad's best year and he probably wont have another like it, but that is not what I meant by my post. I dont understand why you hate someone on our team so much that you would put it in your sig.

Because his presence on the field is not helping our team? I'd cheer for him wholeheartedly if he were on the bench. It's nothing personal.

krohnjw
04-18-2007, 08:43 AM
I couldn't agree more with the post above, why would you have a sig that pokes fun at someone on our team, just b/c you think someone else on the team should be starting. Although I think BA should be starting now since Pods is hurt I dont think he is a better option than Erstad. BA got a full season to prove that he can't hit consistently, Erstad should get more than 12 games. I hope you keep you sig up if he starts to heat up and hit well.

I think Erstad has had plenty of seasons to prove he's a mediocre hitter....unless this is a new Darin Erstad that has just come into the league. Granted he's not a complete bum, but I think we can aim for a bit more than Erstad is going to bring to the plate at this point...especially an aging Erstad.

Anderson got to play one season (without regular playing time - 365 AB) with a swing walker KNEW was flawed and likely wouldn't cut it at the Major league level. They waited until the offseason to fix it and now he can't get any sniff of a chance to prove himself or fail.

russ99
04-18-2007, 08:46 AM
There are 2 issues here, and everyone wants to combine them into one.

1. Ozzie's complete lack of faith in Brian Anderson:
I'm sure Oz has his reasons, but it's obvious the kid isn't going to get a fair shake while he's the manager. I'm not an Anderson fan, but I understand where those of you unhappy with this are coming from. Those are the breaks, deal with it. This kind of thing happens all the time in baseball. I just hope BA doesn't hurt the Sox with another team.

2. Darren Erstad's ineffectiveness:
He's a veteran presence and a clubhouse guy, and for that alone he's in Ozzie's good graces. The entire team is hitting poorly now, so it's unfair to single out one player just because of some fans' probems with #1 above. I think Darrin has a lot to offer the team, but he should be hitting 9th right now until he can get on base with some regularity. Iguchi should never be moved out of the #2 hole - it's proven he's effective there.

FedEx227
04-18-2007, 09:00 AM
Yes that was Erstad's best year and he probably wont have another like it, but that is not what I meant by my post. I dont understand why you hate someone on our team so much that you would put it in your sig.

Who said I hate him? I don't even know the guy.

All I'm doing with my sig (which I stole from santo=dorf) is pointing out the number of times the great leader of all leaders has failed to do his job. We're not skewing numbers, not planning to take out his knees after the game.

We're just showing people how ineffective he's been, and how despite this he'll continue to get 90% of the playing time. It doesn't matter who's on the bench, hell I'd be happy if Jerry Owens even got some play in CF.

But why are we wasting 90% of our at-bats on a guy who has shown throughout his career to be a completely ineffective hitter outside of 2 good years?

It's nothing against Erstad personally, in fact when the signing was made, I was glad to have him as a 4th OF. I thought it was a great idea to get a guy like him as a backup CF/LF/1B. During ST though, when the announcement was made that he would be our everyday CF it became a laughingstock. This isn't a stab at Erstad, it's a stab at Sox management and Ozzie Guillen.

kobo
04-18-2007, 09:34 AM
IIRC, Anderson played pretty much the whole season.
He played in 134 games last year, but I don't know how many starts he made.

spiffie
04-18-2007, 09:44 AM
Who said I hate him? I don't even know the guy.

All I'm doing with my sig (which I stole from santo=dorf) is pointing out the number of times the great leader of all leaders has failed to do his job. We're not skewing numbers, not planning to take out his knees after the game.

We're just showing people how ineffective he's been, and how despite this he'll continue to get 90% of the playing time. It doesn't matter who's on the bench, hell I'd be happy if Jerry Owens even got some play in CF.

But why are we wasting 90% of our at-bats on a guy who has shown throughout his career to be a completely ineffective hitter outside of 2 good years?

It's nothing against Erstad personally, in fact when the signing was made, I was glad to have him as a 4th OF. I thought it was a great idea to get a guy like him as a backup CF/LF/1B. During ST though, when the announcement was made that he would be our everyday CF it became a laughingstock. This isn't a stab at Erstad, it's a stab at Sox management and Ozzie Guillen.
This argument would have infinitely more merit if it were not in support of a guy who, after having an entire season to improve at the major league level, closed out the year with a line of 188/222/304, capping off a season of 4 out of 6 months with a batting average under .200. No Erstad is not a great CF, but at least when healthy he generally will give you a 275/330/385 line and has demonstrated that repeatedly, even ignoring his one outlier year. Anderson has shown nothing at the major league level outside of a few good months. There have been a large number of stories about his work ethic being in question, enough that even if you doubt a particular anecdote, it makes a reasonable person suspicious. I wish we had a high-quality option in the OF. And I agree I'd rather see Anderson in Charlotte, getting work every day. But to act as if there is some blindingly obvious option being overlooked either due to ignorance or pettiness is just patently absurd. We at least have a history to suggest Erstad will likely improve to a certain level. With Anderson, we have pure speculation and optimism.

spiffie
04-18-2007, 09:45 AM
He played in 134 games last year, but I don't know how many starts he made.
He had 106 starts, or just over 65% of the time.

PennStater98r
04-18-2007, 10:48 AM
A lot has been coverd on this thread already, but one thing I think we're missing is that Darin Erstad is not the solution as to what we were missing last year to get to the post season. Heck, he's not even a key element to getting us there this year.

He's a back up outfielder at best. OPS+ measures how good ones OPS is relative to the rest of the league. If a player has a 100 OPS+, that means his OPS is the league average. Erstad has not had a 100 or higher since 2000, when he had a 137 OPS+. Granted, he has come close a couple of times with a 95 in 2004 and 89 in 2005.

So, AT BEST, we have a slightly below average offensive CF who is below average defensively. I understand that a guy can be a positive leader in the clubhouse and bring value to a team that goes beyond the numbers, but he can do that from the bench too.

IF you're going to have the choice between a guy with a below average OPS and below average defense and a guy that has well below average offense and well above average defense, go with choice two.

I know one thing, let the younger one develop - is my thought. Futhermore, let's be a little harder on a guy that has struck out 4 times so far with less than two outs and a guy in scoring position. IF it were Anderson that had done that, he'd have been on the bench for a game or two to think about it.

twsoxfan5
04-18-2007, 11:21 AM
When has Erstad shown that his defense is below average?

jabrch
04-18-2007, 11:51 AM
He's a back up outfielder at best. OPS+ measures how good ones OPS is relative to the rest of the league.

Measuring Erstad based on his OPS is like measuring Konerko on his 40 yard dash times.

It has does not accurately measure the things that Erstad's manager wants him to do.

soxinem1
04-18-2007, 12:25 PM
I thought Erstad was signed as a fourth OF and to back up 1B. Expecting him to repeat an obvious fluke season like Y2K (which was a LONG time ago) as a regular is silly.

He is not fast anymore.

He never had much power.

Except a couple seasons, he is not an RBI guy.

Defensively he was excellent at one time, but the GG days are gone.

The thing I'm having trouble with is why does BA have to sit at all? When he was playing last year (regularly) they led the league in HR's, runs, and had an excellent team average.

They had the room to let him play regularly and develop, and still do, so why has that changed?

Walkman
04-18-2007, 12:28 PM
Measuring Erstad based on his OPS is like measuring Konerko on his 40 yard dash times.

It has does not accurately measure the things that Erstad's manager wants him to do.

OG wants Erstad to bunt because that's all Erstad can do. Kind of like NL managers expect of their pitchers when batting.

spiffie
04-18-2007, 12:31 PM
The thing I'm having trouble with is why does BA have to sit at all? When he was playing last year (regularly) they led the league in HR's, runs, and had an excellent team average.
These two things are pretty much unrelated. I could make the case that I deserve free season tickets since the team's winning percentage was about 40 points higher with me in attendance than when I wasn't. In both cases you're looking at two concurrent but not really related events.

IlliniSox4Life
04-18-2007, 12:32 PM
OG wants Erstad to bunt because that's all Erstad can do. Kind of like NL managers expect of their pitchers when batting.

I think he wants him to bunt because he's just about the only one on the team who has proven so far that he can. It looks bad when you are trying to go back to the grind, yet nobody lays down a successful bunt.

IlliniSox4Life
04-18-2007, 12:38 PM
These two things are pretty much unrelated. I could make the case that I deserve free season tickets since the team's winning percentage was about 40 points higher with me in attendance than when I wasn't. In both cases you're looking at two concurrent but not really related events.

Are you saying that it really doesn't matter if I wash my lucky t-shirt? I refuse to believe that! 18 consecutive games I have worn it dating back to last year we have won!

CLR01
04-18-2007, 02:50 PM
Erstad brings a grinderliciousness to the team previously seen only in great works of fiction.

GrindErstad says it all. Grinderson doesn't work because you have to cut off the "A".

Turcle
04-18-2007, 03:34 PM
Erstad is a Grinder, and whatever you want to think that means is fine. Our offense right now is not hitting. How do you win games when you're no getting hits, its by small ball. With small ball you can get a run with 0 hits, its just productive outs.

In the earlier games with Pods on base, Erstad showed he was good at making the productive out moving Pods over from first to second or second to third, then Paulie or Thome hitting worthless fly outs are now productive and their slump doesn't continue cause they're getting sacrifices.

I don't think Erstad should lead off, he's better at moving runners over. Ozuna would be a great temporary lead off solution with Erstad hitting behind him I could see some good things happening. With out anyone else that can get a bunt down save Ozuna we need someone like Erstad so we can get those move runners over outs.

Anderson looks likes he's blind and someone gave him a wet noodle to swing with out there. His ABs are absolute wastes and make me want to puke, maybe one day he will be a good a hitter but his unproductive strikeouts hurt this team.

santo=dorf
04-18-2007, 03:42 PM
Bingo. Erstad is not this team's biggest problem right now.

For those with the "grind out" sig, you should add a tracker to record AJ's weak pop-ups to the left side. Or grounders to the right side. He already has 11 and I don't recall any of them being hit particularly hard.
Why should I?

Darin is doing exactly what I expected. No power, low OBP, and lots of groundouts.

Aj has done a hell of a lot more for this ball club than Darin ever will for this team.

I aslo imagine it's rough on AJ for playing so much considering we don't have a real back up catcher. In contrast Darin is blocking a younger play who should play everyday but instead the rook is getting no playing time.

lumpyspun
04-18-2007, 03:48 PM
Why should I?


Aj has done a hell of a lot more for this ball club than Darin ever will for this team.



Santo=Nostradamus :smile:

itsnotrequired
04-18-2007, 03:59 PM
Why should I?

Darin is doing exactly what I expected. No power, low OBP, and lots of groundouts.

Aj has done a hell of a lot more for this ball club than Darin ever will for this team.

I aslo imagine it's rough on AJ for playing so much considering we don't have a real back up catcher. In contrast Darin is blocking a younger play who should play everyday but instead the rook is getting no playing time.

Way to go on the "prediction". I love it when people make doomsday claims and then brag about how they were "right". Gimmie a break...

AJ has played like a garbage can at the plate all season long. it isn't as if he was doing well to start out and all this playing time is taking its toll. Its not even the end of April. If AJ is already getting tired or mentally psyching himself out over some perceived lack of a backup catcher, then he needs to get it together.

Tragg
04-18-2007, 04:02 PM
Measuring Erstad based on his OPS is like measuring Konerko on his 40 yard dash times.

It has does not accurately measure the things that Erstad's manager wants him to do.
So Ozzie doesn't need his 2 hitter, the hitter with the 2nd most at bats, the hitter directly in front of Thome, Konerko and Dye, to get on base? That's not important? With those power hitters and a speedy Pods, the most important thing is that he "moves him over" If Ozzie really believes that, he's nuts. But I don't think he believes that. And he did NOT manage that way in 2005. And if he does believe that, why in the 2 hole?
I think it's backwards - the reason that it's important for ERstad to "move them over" is because that's the only offensive skill he has - the alternative is to get a weak out and not move them over.
Erstad is killing this team. (and he doesn't have the cred that the other struggling Sox do, nor anywhere close to their upside). Release him.

CLR01
04-18-2007, 04:22 PM
Erstad is a Grinder, and whatever you want to think that means is fine. Our offense right now is not hitting. How do you win games when you're no getting hits, its by small ball. With small ball you can get a run with 0 hits, its just productive outs.

In the earlier games with Pods on base, Erstad showed he was good at making the productive out moving Pods over from first to second or second to third, then Paulie or Thome hitting worthless fly outs are now productive and their slump doesn't continue cause they're getting sacrifices.

I don't think Erstad should lead off, he's better at moving runners over. Ozuna would be a great temporary lead off solution with Erstad hitting behind him I could see some good things happening. With out anyone else that can get a bunt down save Ozuna we need someone like Erstad so we can get those move runners over outs.

Anderson looks likes he's blind and someone gave him a wet noodle to swing with out there. His ABs are absolute wastes and make me want to puke, maybe one day he will be a good a hitter but his unproductive strikeouts hurt this team.



Anderson should try hitting from the left side. Then all those weak groundouts to 1st/2nd can be labeled productive.

Welcome to WSI, Ozzie

champagne030
04-18-2007, 04:29 PM
Anderson should try hitting from the left side. Then all those weak groundouts to 1st/2nd can be labeled productive.

Welcome to WSI, Ozzie

:rolling:

Jerome
04-18-2007, 04:39 PM
I'd rather have BA starting and playing like **** than Erstad starting and playing like ****. We could use his defense. Besides, we know from the last 5 seasons or so that Darin Erstad sucks, as opposed to Anderson, who yeah was bad last year but it was only his ROOKIE season, he was a highly touted CF prospect and he deserves another chance. I will never understand why Ozzie loves a guy like Erstad so much and hates a guy like Anderson so much. It just screams "Dusty" to me.

It's kind of the same reason that, if Chris Duhon and Thabo Sefolosha are both playing like crap, I'd rather see Sefolosha in there at least getting minutes because the potential is there.

Turcle
04-18-2007, 04:50 PM
Anderson should try hitting from the left side. Then all those weak groundouts to 1st/2nd can be labeled productive.

Welcome to WSI, Ozzie

So if the runner moves from 1st to 2nd on a weak grounder to the right side and is then in scoring position with 1 out, good or bad? If Anderson could just hit the ball to the left side put him in in the two spot fine.

JUribe1989
04-18-2007, 04:54 PM
Even the Sox admitted that they signed Erstad to be a backup outfielder. Now he's a "professional hitter?"

:rolling:

I bet you feel pretty satisfied thinking you won that argument by putting an animated banana rolling around at the end of your statement.

spiffie
04-18-2007, 04:56 PM
Erstad is killing this team. (and he doesn't have the cred that the other struggling Sox do, nor anywhere close to their upside). Release him.
Wow. Just wow. That might be the most overblown statement I've ever seen on this site. Yes, Darin is killing the team. AJ, Crede, Konerko, Dye...all of their slumping would not be happening if only we had BA hitting his likely .200 or so in CF.

Putting BA in CF would likely not have changed our team's record one bit. Unless you assume that suddenly he would have put everything together and hit well against Sabathia or Santana, which seems totally plausible to me.

santo=dorf
04-18-2007, 05:28 PM
Erstad is a Grinder, and whatever you want to think that means is fine. Our offense right now is not hitting. How do you win games when you're no getting hits, its by small ball. With small ball you can get a run with 0 hits, its just productive outs.

In the earlier games with Pods on base, Erstad showed he was good at making the productive out moving Pods over from first to second or second to third, then Paulie or Thome hitting worthless fly outs are now productive and their slump doesn't continue cause they're getting sacrifices.

I don't think Erstad should lead off, he's better at moving runners over. Ozuna would be a great temporary lead off solution with Erstad hitting behind him I could see some good things happening. With out anyone else that can get a bunt down save Ozuna we need someone like Erstad so we can get those move runners over outs.

Anderson looks likes he's blind and someone gave him a wet noodle to swing with out there. His ABs are absolute wastes and make me want to puke, maybe one day he will be a good a hitter but his unproductive strikeouts hurt this team.
I'm keeping track of these silly stats in my sig just for the sake to have a numeric value on what grinderstad's weak ground balls really lead to. We can look up how many times he has grounded out and how many sac bunts he has.

I'm keeping track of him "grinding out" (making an out via the second baseman or first baseman,) how many times the runner has advanced due to his groundouts (I'm including the ones to short and third,) how many times that runner scores, and how many botched bunts he has.

So far this year grinderstad has grounded out 19 times, and 3 of those times the runner has advance a base. Only once has that runner scored, and it was after Pods stole second and worthless Konerko knocked him in with a groundball.

Speaking of strikeouts, Grinderstad has the 5th most.

You people go ahead and keep preaching to us how good Erstad's outs are, but I'll be the only one keeping track. :cool:

lumpyspun
04-18-2007, 05:33 PM
Anderson should try hitting from the left side. Then all those weak groundouts to 1st/2nd can be labeled productive.

Welcome to WSI, Ozzie

Actually he should learn to play in China, b/c growing up I was always told a Chinese homerun is a foul ball that goes backwards over the backstop.

He'd be pretty productive at the plate in China if that is the case.

ThomesHomie
04-18-2007, 06:36 PM
OG wants Erstad to bunt because that's all Erstad can do. Kind of like NL managers expect of their pitchers when batting.

I hope your joking

All these people really jumping on the hate Erstad wagon should really calm down, lets not forgot he is a veteran.

Just because he is not doing so hot now, does not mean anything. If it did, then we should probably get rid of 3/4 of our team. Who would that leave really?

INSox56
04-18-2007, 06:43 PM
Guess we'll find out a bit more tonight because he's leading off again. A guy that Ks too much, as well as never walks is our leadoff hitter as opposed to ozuna/mack who can at least do something right now. I'd personally like to ask Ozzie why the **** ozuna isn't starting in left, erstad on the bench, and BA in center, just to hear his bull**** reason. No one besides WSI members seem to even question why Erstad is in CF and BA is not.

CLR01
04-18-2007, 06:45 PM
So if the runner moves from 1st to 2nd on a weak grounder to the right side and is then in scoring position with 1 out, good or bad? If Anderson could just hit the ball to the left side put him in in the two spot fine.

It a grrreat thing. The fact that grindErstad hits so many weak groundballs to 1st/2nd may make him the best player to ever step foot on a baseball diamond. That is why I want Anderson, with Walkers help, to start batting left handed. I believe a player can have a HOF career if he hits nothing but fielding practice to the right side. That's why Cora loves the Fungo bat so much.

ThomesHomie
04-18-2007, 06:49 PM
I will also add that he can play first base as well. Lets not forget that he won a gold glove in the outfield and infield, the only player to ever do so.

TomBradley72
04-18-2007, 06:54 PM
Anderson should try hitting from the left side. Then all those weak groundouts to 1st/2nd can be labeled productive.

Welcome to WSI, Ozzie

I was a big BA supporter last year...but he truly looks lost at the plate. About on par with Cory Snyder when he was here.

Tragg
04-18-2007, 06:59 PM
Wow. Just wow. That might be the most overblown statement I've ever seen on this site. Yes, Darin is killing the team. AJ, Crede, Konerko, Dye...all of their slumping would not be happening if only we had BA hitting his likely .200 or so in CF.

Putting BA in CF would likely not have changed our team's record one bit. Unless you assume that suddenly he would have put everything together and hit well against Sabathia or Santana, which seems totally plausible to me.
Talk about wow just wow. Absurd alibis and excuses to apologize for this guy....well, everybody's playing like crap so what difference does it make?
Here's the difference - CRede and Dye have produced for this club - they gave us a ring...Erstad hasn't produced for any club in many years. Crede and Dye have earned the benefit of the doubt. Anderson is a 2nd year player with big upside. Erstad hasn't come close to producing and his upside is to be below average.
Further, Ozzie is batting this guy, who's sole offensive skill is bunting, at leadoff. Won't even bench him for a day - I guess Ozzie finally gets to see a player who hit as poorly as he did bat leadoff...that's all I can figure.

That was great to see last Sunday, 6 outs left, down a run, runner on no out, Thome, Dye and Konerko coming up - that Ozzie BUNTED - no choice, because it was Erstad's turn to bat....
Indeed, he is killing this team.

Beautox
04-18-2007, 07:00 PM
Erstad is a connoisseur of making outs to the right side of the infield, he hasn't been good in nearly a decade.

I thought brining him onboard as a 4th of, lhb of the bench, back up 1B was a good move so long as it didn't stunt the growth of Anderson.

Its becoming more and more apparent that Ozzie = Dusty. all i want is for him to put the Sox in the best position to win thats all; Erstad doesn't afford us that opportunity.

on an unrelated note the sox approach at the plate is horrid and well documented, a change needs to happen, Papa Jack?

MikeLove
04-18-2007, 08:01 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7489&type=batting&year=2006

edit: chart wasnt showing up right, im refering to july & august & post all-star

I don't know about you guys, but that looks like POTENTIAL to me. Sure the overall year wasn't very good, but the fact that Anderson was outstanding in center field and these flashes of potential he deserves to be out there. Pods post all star break splits are worse from last year! Erstad looked like a genius move at the beginning of the season, but he has been crap for the most part since then. Erstad needs to have to earn a playing spot in my opinion! BA came up through the orginization and since Erstad isn't getting it done, the cf or lf job should now be BA's to lose.

I was so mad when i saw BA not in the lineup again today! I figured it was just a one game thing yesterday, but now im starting to get outraged.

santo=dorf
04-18-2007, 08:16 PM
I will also add that he can play first base as well. Lets not forget that he won a gold glove in the outfield and infield, the only player to ever do so.
Gotta love the WSI double talk.

Rowand doesn't win a GG in 2005, Crede doesn't win a GG in 2006, Hunter wins one in 2005 despite being injured, and Jeter wins one over Uribe = Gold Gloves are worthless and a sham.

Erstad can't hit to save his life, and despite people's claims, he isn't moving runners over with his groundballs but we need him because he won some Gold Gloves.

CLR01
04-18-2007, 08:23 PM
...but we need him because...


http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/grinder.jpg

balke
04-18-2007, 08:44 PM
I don't like how he was interacting with Pods. Pods has had 2-3 SB's taken away from him from Erstad already. We really need Pods in scoring position with the middle of the order behind him.

Let him get to 2nd, then show me how you bunt Erstad. That's how we can score on a Santana or Sabathia.

Other than that, I've seen a few things I like having Erstad on the team for. The biggest being right now, Gooch has been slumping. He also has been absorbing some pitches against good pitching, and playing a decent CF.

jabrch
04-18-2007, 09:09 PM
Whine whine whine...

santo=dorf
04-18-2007, 09:30 PM
Whine whine whine...
facts, facts, facts.

I see you and spiffie aren't puffing your chests out about Erstad like after the first and second games of the season.

When is the appropriate time to judge whether or not Erstad has been a bust?:?:

CLR01
04-18-2007, 09:37 PM
I wuv you Ersty. :bateyes:

Frontman
04-18-2007, 09:43 PM
facts, facts, facts.

I see you and spiffie aren't puffing your chests out about Erstad like after the first and second games of the season.

When is the appropriate time to judge whether or not Erstad has been a bust?:?:




Look at today's box score. Iguchi got on. Thome was great. Konerko at least walked. AJ got a hit. Dye hit a slam. Crede got a a hit.

So, Mack, Anderson, Uribe and Erstad were the only non-hitters. Erstad has played the most, yet Anderson, with his very limited at bats, has almost the same BA; with our #9 hitter having 100 points better than our grinder Erstad.

I don't think I need to wait until our #9 hitter has 150 points better. We need a lead-off replacement for Scotty, and soon. Erstad should be on the bench or batting in the 7th/8th spot, and quick.

Frater Perdurabo
04-18-2007, 09:49 PM
I bet you feel pretty satisfied thinking you won that argument by putting an animated banana rolling around at the end of your statement.

Do you feel satisfied thinking that :rolling: is a banana? :supernana:

:cool:

itsnotrequired
04-18-2007, 10:28 PM
Gotta love the WSI double talk.

Rowand doesn't win a GG in 2005, Crede doesn't win a GG in 2006, Hunter wins one in 2005 despite being injured, and Jeter wins one over Uribe = Gold Gloves are worthless and a sham.

Erstad can't hit to save his life, and despite people's claims, he isn't moving runners over with his groundballs but we need him because he won some Gold Gloves.

What double-talk? With Gload gone, who will fill in at first other than Erstad?

Erstad grinds for a living and grinds for the willing...

A. Cavatica
04-18-2007, 10:34 PM
Handing Erstad a bat is like asking Rob Mackowiak to play center. I blame the manager for being fooled into thinking Erstad is an everyday player.

Jjav829
04-19-2007, 07:04 AM
I think so - he's an "ozzie-style" player; he hits almost as badly as Ozzie did, but he can bunt. If his name were Anderson he'd be 6 feet under Ozzie's bus right now with this level of performance. I don't think we'll see a change (unless Williams steps in).


It seems like the biggest misconception about the Anderson situation is that KW is some huge Anderson supporter, while Ozzie is the only one who doesn't think too highly of him.

Williams, meanwhile, tried to downplay the scrutiny involving Brian Anderson while Podsednik is sidelined. Podsednik's injury leaves the Sox with one fewer outfielder, seeming to pave the way for more playing time for Anderson in left and center fields.

"I think we all live under the microscope," Williams said. "[Anderson] needs to produce when he gets the opportunity, just like the rest of us."

spiffie
04-19-2007, 11:20 AM
Handing Erstad a bat is like asking Rob Mackowiak to play center. I blame the manager for being fooled into thinking Erstad is an everyday player.
If handing Erstad a bat is liking asking Rob Mackowiak to play center, then handing Brian Anderson (and his stellar career .219 average) a bat is liking asking Rob Mackowiak to make a gourmet dinner out of play-doh and hairballs while explaining string theory in ancient Latin...all while playing center.

CLR01
04-19-2007, 11:32 AM
...is liking asking Rob Mackowiak to make a gourmet dinner out of play-doh and hairballs while explaining string theory in ancient Latin...all while playing center.


It is a well know fact that the only man in the known universe capable of pulling that stunt off is Sir Optimus Grind.

INSox56
04-19-2007, 11:35 AM
If handing Erstad a bat is liking asking Rob Mackowiak to play center, then handing Brian Anderson (and his stellar career .219 average) a bat is liking asking Rob Mackowiak to make a gourmet dinner out of play-doh and hairballs while explaining string theory in ancient Latin...all while playing center.
Yeah that wonderful Avg, all with a problematic swing that the hitting coach admitted to not helping on purpose. :rolleyes: After Walker admitted to that, I find it hard to use last year as a great judge to his hitting abilities....so far. This season, after his mechanics have been supposedly fixed for the most part, if you give him a full season's ABs (not bull**** bench numbers), then I think it'd be fair to make a judgement on what the Sox should do with the guy.

spiffie
04-19-2007, 12:12 PM
It is a well know fact that the only man in the known universe capable of pulling that stunt off is Sir Optimus Grind.
Actually, the only man who can do that is Aaron Rowand.

CLR01
04-19-2007, 12:31 PM
Actually, the only man who can do that is Aaron Rowand.

Rowand is no a man, he is much more.. Not even grindErstad can fill his shoes.

EndemicSox
04-19-2007, 01:12 PM
I think it's time to give Anderson a month or so to see if he has improved. Erstad is a shell of his former self, and he hurts the team more than he helps it.

ThomesHomie
04-19-2007, 03:02 PM
Gotta love the WSI double talk.

Rowand doesn't win a GG in 2005, Crede doesn't win a GG in 2006, Hunter wins one in 2005 despite being injured, and Jeter wins one over Uribe = Gold Gloves are worthless and a sham.

Erstad can't hit to save his life, and despite people's claims, he isn't moving runners over with his groundballs but we need him because he won some Gold Gloves.

What double talk, I was stating that he can play the outfield, and infield just as good. And it helps out when Paulie needs to rest, or when Thome needs a day off.

Give him a month, if he is still swinging like this, then bring this topic back up. Like I said, right now ( besides yesterday ) now a whole lot of players are hitting on our team.

And just because he is not hitting does not mean he is not doing something for the team, at time he can take 12 pitches at one at bat, you better believe thats going to put some stress on there pitcher, and will also give our batters a better view on that pitchers pitches that night.

He also has speed, and he can put himself into scoring position if he gets on. If you pull Erstad out now, its only going to hurt him even more, players need to get into grooves, and when they come around, they come around. Lets now forget how many years it took Paulie to come out of his funk in the first half, so do we bench him ?

I trust Ozzy, although I would be playing BA a little more in left field.

santo=dorf
04-19-2007, 04:18 PM
What double-talk? With Gload gone, who will fill in at first other than Erstad?
Toby Hall

Seriously, a backup first baseman for late inning substitutions is one of the last things a team needs to worry about. People love to think recreating every move from 2005 will win us another championship, the Sox had Timo and Dye play first base.

Mack has experience at first as does Eduardo Perez.

During that Sunday game in Cleveland, Hawk was fawning all over Erstad being "a baseball player," and right during that moment, Erstad made an error at first.

ThomesHomie
04-19-2007, 04:25 PM
Seriously, a backup first baseman for late inning substitutions is one of the last things a team needs to worry about

I did not say for late innings though, there are times where Paulie, or Thome needs to rest. I'd rather see Erstad playing first rather then JD, or Rob. Last year was a prime example of it, Paulie fell into a little slump and they said fatigue played a big part of that.

I still will stick to what I have been saying, its very early. Give everyone some time to come around

Tragg
04-19-2007, 04:55 PM
The pro-Erstad crowd reasons that his value is in "moving runners over".

Then what is he doing anywhere near the top of the lineup, much less lead-off hitter? Who's he going to move over in the 1st inning - his secret friend?


And for the record, Anderson walked last night - which is as much as ERstad has accomplished in the last 2 weeks.

santo=dorf
04-19-2007, 04:59 PM
I did not say for late innings though, there are times where Paulie, or Thome needs to rest. I'd rather see Erstad playing first rather then JD, or Rob. Last year was a prime example of it, Paulie fell into a little slump and they said fatigue played a big part of that.

I still will stick to what I have been saying, its very early. Give everyone some time to come around
Why can't Thome play 1B when Konerko needs a day off?

The pro-Erstad crowd reasons that his value is in "moving runners over".

Then what is he doing anywhere near the top of the lineup, much less lead-off hitter? Who's he going to move over in the 1st inning - his secret friend?


And for the record, Anderson walked last night - which is as much as ERstad has accomplished in the last 2 weeks.
Darin Erstad has grounded out 20 times this year, 3 times the runner has advanced a base, and once that runner scored due to him being advanced by a ground out.
3 for 20 and 1 for 20 don't impress me at all. I'd like to see the grinderstad supporters spin that one.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_113889.jpg
"Coach Ozzie loves to take me out for ice cream after my long day of grinding."

Walkman
04-19-2007, 05:00 PM
I hope your joking

All these people really jumping on the hate Erstad wagon should really calm down, lets not forgot he is a veteran.

Just because he is not doing so hot now, does not mean anything. If it did, then we should probably get rid of 3/4 of our team. Who would that leave really?

Who said my comments have anything to do with his performance this year? I am basing it on the last several yrs., during which his OBP has been in a steep decline. Sorry but if he can't get on base he has nothing else to add offensively.

Lukin13
04-19-2007, 05:12 PM
Erstad hit the ball well last night, just right at people.

BUT

with that being said if you told me Pods would go down and we STILL wouldn't see Anderson I would have **** myself.

If Erstad isn't going to hit .300 I want to see Anderson.
If Pods isn't in the lineup I want to see Anderson.

With Pods out, forget the grinder wannabe lineup, put Iguchi on top, Crede second and lets just MASH. You don't play small ball when you don't have the guys to do it. If everyone was healthy and Erstad could get on base at least a third of the time then you MIGHT convince me that the Sox "need to move runners along" and play some "small/ozzie/grinder/circa1980" baseball.... even then I don't think that is wise. With the current active roster this team just needs to MASH the ball. And when we are "slugging it out", you might as well take your way below average defensive outfield and make it average with Anderson... and at the same time realize that even if he is a .250 hitter that is all Erstad will give you anyways.

In 05' all of you guys confused "small ball" with timely hitting and getting breaks.

Tragg
04-19-2007, 06:01 PM
If there's no room for a young player when with the incumbent CF hitting .150, there probably never will be any room.

That Erstad is a veteran makes it worse.

Malgar 12
04-19-2007, 07:04 PM
I trust Ozzy, although I would be playing BA a little more in left field.

Don't you mean CF?

A. Cavatica
04-19-2007, 09:57 PM
If Erstad isn't going to hit .300 I want to see Anderson.
If Pods isn't in the lineup I want to see Anderson.

With Pods out, forget the grinder wannabe lineup, put Iguchi on top, Crede second and lets just MASH.

Anderson shouldn't have to depend on an injury to play. I'd rather have him playing center if he can just hit .250, because Anderson's going to improve, and Erstad is not. Also, Anderson has twice Erstad's power and a better glove.

I don't think the Sox can afford both Anderson and Erstad in the same lineup right now. How about Mack in left and leading off?

ThomesHomie
04-19-2007, 11:49 PM
Who said my comments have anything to do with his performance this year? I am basing it on the last several yrs., during which his OBP has been in a steep decline. Sorry but if he can't get on base he has nothing else to add offensively.

He has been injured the last few years I believe, or last year at least. I don't think they want Thome out there playing, risking an injury. And stick BA anywhere out there, as long as he gets to play. I feel like he should be out there at times instead of Rob. Right now its clear Erstad is not swinging well, he swing is not coming around. Hawk mentioned it tonight.

I'll still give him time to come around. I'm sure BA is playing better because he knows he has something to compete against this year, if he was starting every game like last year ( almost every game ) I don't feel like he would be doing so well.

Sorry but if he can't get on base he has nothing else to add offensively.

Well then we should sit down AJ as well right ? Like I said, look at how our lineup has been hitting ( don't look at these last two games ) . No one was hitting, now we are starting to come around.

I'm in no means Pro Erstad, I just don't see any thing good coming from the guy being benched after 12 games. You have to give something a try, or else you will never know if it will work out.

With some of the way you guys think, we would not of had some of the talent that is on the team now because they all started off slow in the season, or there careers. Paulies starts slow every year, and he started pretty slow when he came over here. Crede, come on, he was known as pop up Crede for awhile, but now he has come around.

Time will tell rather Erstad will be good enough to start. Some of you guys really seem to have it out for the guy. I guess Ozzy and the whole staff have no clue what there doing anymore.

itsnotrequired
04-19-2007, 11:51 PM
Toby Hall

Seriously, a backup first baseman for late inning substitutions is one of the last things a team needs to worry about. People love to think recreating every move from 2005 will win us another championship, the Sox had Timo and Dye play first base.

Mack has experience at first as does Eduardo Perez.

During that Sunday game in Cleveland, Hawk was fawning all over Erstad being "a baseball player," and right during that moment, Erstad made an error at first.

Erstad should be killed and sent to the gulag.

:rolleyes:

Craig Grebeck
04-20-2007, 06:51 AM
Erstad should be killed and sent to the gulag.

:rolleyes:
...

Well then we should sit down AJ as well right ? Like I said, look at how our lineup has been hitting ( don't look at these last two games ) . No one was hitting, now we are starting to come around.

I'm in no means Pro Erstad, I just don't see any thing good coming from the guy being benched after 12 games. You have to give something a try, or else you will never know if it will work out.

With some of the way you guys think, we would not of had some of the talent that is on the team now because they all started off slow in the season, or there careers. Paulies starts slow every year, and he started pretty slow when he came over here. Crede, come on, he was known as pop up Crede for awhile, but now he has come around.

Time will tell rather Erstad will be good enough to start. Some of you guys really seem to have it out for the guy. I guess Ozzy and the whole staff have no clue what there doing anymore.
Actually, I know he's not going to be any good based on his last six horrid seasons. And the difference between AJ/Kong/Crede and Erstad is ridiculous. They're all average to good. Erstad is neither.

spiffie
04-20-2007, 10:07 AM
...


Actually, I know he's not going to be any good based on his last six horrid seasons. And the difference between AJ/Kong/Crede and Erstad is ridiculous. They're all average to good. Erstad is neither.
You use the word in a manner I don't quite get. In Erstad's last 2 full seasons he's had a higher BA than the league average and either equaled or bettered the league average in OBP. He's averaged 31 doubles per season in those last two years which would have been tops on the 2005 Sox and tied for 3rd in 2004. So basically he doesn't hit a lot of HR's.

I guess the question then becomes if a guy who is around league average in OBP and BA, hits a decent about of 2B's but doesn't hit many HR's is "horrible", then what is a guy who puts up an OPS+ of 65 and comes in over 50 points lower than LGAVG in OBP and nearly 100 points lower in SLG? Is there a word for that? Appalling? Ungodly? Abominable? I guess I just want to get the semantics right. If average=horrible then significantly below average=?

TomBradley72
04-20-2007, 10:22 AM
Gotta give BA some playing time against LHs. Erstad deserves some more time to come around...but he has the 2nd most ABs on the team...that's too many..and he's hitting .133 against LHs. I'd like to see BA in against Robertson tomorrow, and in again on Sunday to cover the bigger OF in Comerica Park...in what should be a low scoring game. (Garland/Verlander)

Craig Grebeck
04-20-2007, 11:34 AM
You use the word in a manner I don't quite get. In Erstad's last 2 full seasons he's had a higher BA than the league average and either equaled or bettered the league average in OBP. He's averaged 31 doubles per season in those last two years which would have been tops on the 2005 Sox and tied for 3rd in 2004. So basically he doesn't hit a lot of HR's.

I guess the question then becomes if a guy who is around league average in OBP and BA, hits a decent about of 2B's but doesn't hit many HR's is "horrible", then what is a guy who puts up an OPS+ of 65 and comes in over 50 points lower than LGAVG in OBP and nearly 100 points lower in SLG? Is there a word for that? Appalling? Ungodly? Abominable? I guess I just want to get the semantics right. If average=horrible then significantly below average=?
With Erstad, you know what you're going to get. Anderson has a high ceiling and beat Erstad in the spring, yet, cannot seem to get any playing time. He was a rookie last season who our (seemingly infallible) manager platooned. He CAN GROW (if given any playing time, at all). Erstad has been atrocious and there is no reason to keep him around.

Mack
Gooch
Thome
Kong
Dye
Crede
AJP
Uribe
Anderson

(permanently, PLEASE).

spiffie
04-20-2007, 12:00 PM
With Erstad, you know what you're going to get. Anderson has a high ceiling and beat Erstad in the spring, yet, cannot seem to get any playing time. He was a rookie last season who our (seemingly infallible) manager platooned. He CAN GROW (if given any playing time, at all). Erstad has been atrocious and there is no reason to keep him around.

Erstad has had a stretch of about 2 bad weeks. We know that judging by past performance he will likely give us approximately league average numbers in OBP and BA.

Anderson might grow into something better. He might grow into absolutely nothing. He might have another sub 300 OBP season if given 500 AB's. He has a high ceiling but a very low floor.

Right now I'd rather stick with the guy who is more likely to provide us with average production, than to roll the dice that maybe between getting some weird bug down in Venezuela and seemingly ending up on the organization's bad side and ending the season last year with yet another sub .200 hitting month (after supposedly improving) somehow BA really got his swing together and is ready to produce. If in 6 more weeks Erstad is still hitting like this, as opposed to around his career norms, then sure, dump him. But right now you are projecting on Anderson based solely on optimism and minor league numbers, and skewing Erstad's previous performance (and likely eventual performance for this season) as far worse than it is.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Iguchi back in the 2 spot regardless of who is in CF.

soxfanatlanta
04-20-2007, 12:29 PM
That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Iguchi back in the 2 spot regardless of who is in CF.


Agreed: I know Iguchi-san wants to hit lower in the lineup so he can get better power numbers, but he is really is the best choice for the #2 spot right now.

Lip Man 1
04-20-2007, 12:33 PM
It be interesting to see if, as the season progresses, Kenny makes a pitch for Ichiro. Especially if the M's are out of the race in the West and if they can't get him to agree on a new deal. He becomes a free agent after the season.

Lip

spiffie
04-20-2007, 02:21 PM
It be interesting to see if, as the season progresses, Kenny makes a pitch for Ichiro. Especially if the M's are out of the race in the West and if they can't get him to agree on a new deal. He becomes a free agent after the season.

Lip
Why would we want Ichiro? If only Ozzie would free Brian Anderson and let him roam around CF every game BA would hit 400/500/700, catch every ball hit within 3,000 feet of him, and give every fan a complimentary unicorn to ride home. Of course, that dastardly Erstad would probably try to shoot the unicorns because they're not "grinderly" enough for him.

Craig Grebeck
04-20-2007, 02:24 PM
HONESLy spiff i'd dispute you but i just go tmy widsom teeth out and i am out of my mind .

sorry for diresepcting erstad i just doh't think he can help the team as much as ba. i think we ruin his career by stunting his growth no hard feelings spiff i respect te hell out of you

Tragg
04-20-2007, 02:27 PM
Why would we want Ichiro? If only Ozzie would free Brian Anderson and let him roam around CF every game BA would hit 400/500/700, catch every ball hit within 3,000 feet of him, and give every fan a complimentary unicorn to ride home. Of course, that dastardly Erstad would probably try to shoot the unicorns because they're not "grinderly" enough for him.
ERstad was great last night - one out and the runner on 2nd, he moved him over so there were 2 outs and a runner on 3rd....that, and a .160 batting average, is all we need from a leadoff hitter.

At least Anderson is young and bats 9. Erstad is protected by Thome and still can't best .170. Release Erstad.

spiffie
04-20-2007, 02:32 PM
HONESLy spiff i'd dispute you but i just go tmy widsom teeth out and i am out of my mind .

sorry for diresepcting erstad i just doh't think he can help the team as much as ba. i think we ruin his career by stunting his growth no hard feelings spiff i respect te hell out of you
Ouch...wisdom teeth removal sucks. Hope the pain goes away soon.

Craig Grebeck
04-20-2007, 02:34 PM
no pain i am completely numb

SBSoxFan
04-20-2007, 02:37 PM
no pain i am completely numb

Make sure you get that pain killer subscription filled! When I got mine pulled I was feeling fine, and I thought: "I don't need Tylenol 3, I'll just take some aspirin before bed." Suffice to say that I was on the phone half the night trying to find a 24-hour pharmacy! :whiner:

Craig Grebeck
04-20-2007, 02:45 PM
i only had one out---unfortunately i called just about everyone i knew and told them what i thought (from i'm in love with you to **** you you're an *******)

SBSoxFan
04-20-2007, 02:52 PM
i only had one out---unfortunately i called just about everyone i knew and told them what i thought (from i'm in love with you to **** you you're an *******)

You wuss. How many do you have? I was lucky enough to get all 4; they did 2 at a time.

UserNameBlank
04-20-2007, 02:53 PM
HONESLy spiff i'd dispute you but i just go tmy widsom teeth out and i am out of my mind .

sorry for diresepcting erstad i just doh't think he can help the team as much as ba. i think we ruin his career by stunting his growth no hard feelings spiff i respect te hell out of you
I agree. The only things that Erstad is better than BA at are putting down bunts and hitting the ball to the right side of the infield. Normally that is not enough for an organization to start an aging veteran coming off surgery over a former first round pick and top prospect who is ready. Normally an ability to put a bunt down is not enough to start a player in the top 1-2 spots of a batting order full of sluggers either. Ozzie is just very, very ignorant sometimes when it comes to the true value of these "grinders."

Not to hijack the thread, but last night late in the game, Mack is on 1st with no one out. Uribe is at the plate. Although Juan was getting underneath everything and struggling a little that game, he was still playing very well and was one of the bright spots of our offense. So, does Ozzie let Juan hit? No, he has Uribe bunt Mack to 2nd, giving up an out in a tight game, in order to put a RISP for ...gasp.... Darin Erstad. Not Iguchi, Thome, Konerko, Dye, Crede, AJ, but Darin Erstad. So what does Erstad do? Make an out. After that IIRC Iguchi walked, Thome walked, and Dye ended the inning with the bases loaded and two out. Texas' pitching was very wild and everyone but Uribe who bunted and Mr. Patience Erstad took a pitch. In a Sox win these are the things that go unnoticed, but Ozzie's undying Erstad grinderlove could hurt the team in several ways besides the obvious lack of development for Brian.

Zednem700
04-20-2007, 03:02 PM
You use the word in a manner I don't quite get. In Erstad's last 2 full seasons he's had a higher BA than the league average and either equaled or bettered the league average in OBP. He's averaged 31 doubles per season in those last two years which would have been tops on the 2005 Sox and tied for 3rd in 2004. So basically he doesn't hit a lot of HR's.

This simply isn't true unless you have a different definition of full seasons than I. In 2005 Erstad played a full season, 153 games to be exact. In 2004 he played in only 125 games, and missing 37 games is far too many for that season to be considered full. Besides 05, his last full season was 02, and his obp was below league average, as it was in 01. 2000 was his fluke year, and in no year prior to that did he play in more than 143 games.

More importantly, both of those "good" recent seasons (05 and 04) came when he was playing 1st base and DH exclusively. He was moved there to reduce his injury risk and to preserve his bat since it was believed that the strain of playing the outfield everyday hurt his ability to hit. They probably had a point because, as frightening as this is to contemplate, in his career Erstad has been a far better hitter in the first half.
Career rate
Erstad 1st half .300 .355 .442 .797
Erstad 2nd half .265 .318 .376 .694

To expect much of anything from Erstad's bat now that he is playing a more difficult position than he has in years, is turning 33 in June, and is coming off yet another severe injury is foolish at best. Sure maybe he's in a slump, but maybe what he did last year in limited time just showed us that he's done. Historically, tons of players fall apart in their early thirties and Erstad looks like he's joined that group. Problem is, he wasn't a very good hitter to begin with.

UserNameBlank
04-20-2007, 03:05 PM
This simply isn't true unless you have a different definition of full seasons than I. In 2005 Erstad played a full season, 153 games to be exact. In 2004 he played in only 125 games, and missing 37 games is far too many for that season to be considered full. Besides 05, his last full season was 02, and his obp was below league average, as it was in 01. 2000 was his fluke year, and in no year prior to that did he play in more than 143 games.

More importantly, both of those "good" recent seasons (05 and 04) came when he was playing 1st base and DH exclusively. He was moved there to reduce his injury risk and to preserve his bat since it was believed that the strain of playing the outfield everyday hurt his ability to hit. They probably had a point because, as frightening as this is to contemplate, in his career Erstad has been a far better hitter in the first half.
Career rate
Erstad 1st half .300 .355 .442 .797
Erstad 2nd half .265 .318 .376 .694

To expect much of anything from Erstad's bat now that he is playing a more difficult position than he has in years, is turning 33 in June, and is coming off yet another severe injury is foolish at best. Sure maybe he's in a slump, but maybe what he did last year in limited time just showed us that he's done. Historically, tons of players fall apart in their early thirties and Erstad looks like he's joined that group. Problem is, he wasn't a very good hitter to begin with.
Well said.

ThomesHomie
04-20-2007, 04:13 PM
You don't think Erstad being here, changed BA mind set at all ?

chisox77
04-20-2007, 04:16 PM
Erstad = GRINDER

:cool:

santo=dorf
04-20-2007, 04:42 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but last night late in the game, Mack is on 1st with no one out. Uribe is at the plate. Although Juan was getting underneath everything and struggling a little that game, he was still playing very well and was one of the bright spots of our offense. So, does Ozzie let Juan hit? No, he has Uribe bunt Mack to 2nd, giving up an out in a tight game, in order to put a RISP for ...gasp.... Darin Erstad. Not Iguchi, Thome, Konerko, Dye, Crede, AJ, but Darin Erstad. So what does Erstad do? Make an out. After that IIRC Iguchi walked, Thome walked, and Dye ended the inning with the bases loaded and two out. Texas' pitching was very wild and everyone but Uribe who bunted and Mr. Patience Erstad took a pitch. In a Sox win these are the things that go unnoticed, but Ozzie's undying Erstad grinderlove could hurt the team in several ways besides the obvious lack of development for Brian.
I mention this in the game thread how we gave Texas two outs, but the FODE wouldn't have any of it.

UserNameBlank
04-20-2007, 05:03 PM
I mention this in the game thread how we gave Texas two outs, but the FODE wouldn't have any of it.
I don't get all the love, either.

Love the sig too BTW!

Tragg
04-20-2007, 05:19 PM
but last night late in the game, Mack is on 1st with no one out. Uribe is at the plate. Although Juan was getting underneath everything and struggling a little that game, he was still playing very well and was one of the bright spots of our offense. So, does Ozzie let Juan hit? No, he has Uribe bunt Mack to 2nd, giving up an out in a tight game, in order to put a RISP for ...gasp.... Darin Erstad.
That's unbelievable....bunt, give up an out, to set it up for Erstad to drive the run in.

That's too bizarre to be believed.

UserNameBlank
04-20-2007, 06:42 PM
I mention this in the game thread how we gave Texas two outs, but the FODE wouldn't have any of it.
Check out my sig! edit... not working...

FedEx227
04-20-2007, 07:34 PM
Check out my sig! edit... not working...

Haha, that's great!

Only question where's Rowand and where's David Eckstein?

I'd say take out Willie and Guzman and throw Rowand and Eckstein in there and we're talking!

Malgar 12
04-21-2007, 08:48 AM
In case you missed it.

" Anderson was thought to be the Sox's best defensive center fielder, but Erstad has taken over in Guillen's eyes.

"Right now, that's why [Erstad] is playing center field," Guillen said. "If we're going late in the game, you will see [Anderson] in left field. You're not going to see [Anderson] in center field, unless we move [Erstad to first].

"But not right now, the way he plays right now."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070420soxbrite,1,3739323.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Assuming this is true...which I don't...why exactly is Anderson even on the team?

FarWestChicago
04-21-2007, 08:52 AM
Assuming this is true...which I don't...why exactly is Anderson even on the team?To give the REH's something to go lunatic about. :redneck

UserNameBlank
04-21-2007, 09:42 AM
Haha, that's great!

Only question where's Rowand and where's David Eckstein?

I'd say take out Willie and Guzman and throw Rowand and Eckstein in there and we're talking!
I thought about Rowand, but I went with Byrnes because IMO his head first slides into 1B are more "grinder." I almost put Eckstein on there but I didn't because he actually brings value to a team.

Ahh crap, sig isn't working again. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong... I feel so stupid.

edit: okay, now its working.

Craig Grebeck
04-21-2007, 11:30 AM
I'm fairly positive Ozzie has no idea what he's doing with regards to this situation.

itsnotrequired
04-21-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm fairly positive Ozzie has no idea what he's doing with regards to this situation.

I'm fairly positive Ozzie knows more about what he's doing than you do.

:redneck

CLR01
04-21-2007, 11:40 AM
I'm fairly positive Ozzie knows more about what he's doing than you do.

:redneck

I wouldn't bet a whole lot of money on that. :D:

The Immigrant
04-21-2007, 11:54 AM
I wouldn't bet a whole lot of money on that. :D:

I'm not one to question Ozzie's moves on a regular basis, but this has nothing to do with playing ability and everything to do with personal vendettas and other issues that have no bearing on the team's success on the field. If he won't even play BA against lefties, then Kenny should send BA down to Charlotte so he can at least get some ABs until Erstad completely falls apart (assuming that Ozzie doesn't simply move Rob into CF at that time).

TomBradley72
04-21-2007, 12:04 PM
OG is making a statement with BA around work ethic. I think he learned from last year to be tougher on the younger players until they've proven themselves. BA, Logan and MacCarthy fall into this category. Mac was traded for two arms, Logan was sent down to AAA and earned a call up. I think BA is in Ozzie's doghouse until he proves through his work ethic that he belongs. BA's recent comments in the media haven't helped...he comes across as not really getting it (in my opinion).

ThomesHomie
04-21-2007, 01:34 PM
What did he do yesterday, drove in one and he scored one and the rbi was a timely hit.

CLR01
04-21-2007, 01:48 PM
What did he do yesterday, drove in one and he scored one and the rbi was a timely hit.

That should buy him another 10 games or so of 0/x performances.

ThomesHomie
04-21-2007, 01:50 PM
That should buy him another 10 games or so of 0/x performances.

Doesn't matter right now what he does it some people's eyes, on this message board. Seems like you guys already have him in the dog house.

CLR01
04-21-2007, 01:52 PM
Doesn't matter right now what he does it some people's eyes, on this message board. Seems like you guys already have him in the dog house.

I am giving him every opportunity to succeed...

ThomesHomie
04-21-2007, 02:16 PM
I am giving him every opportunity to succeed...

Some aren't though. That last at bat was pretty bad though.

dickallen15
04-21-2007, 06:33 PM
Erstad brings a lot of outs to the White Sox offense.

Tragg
04-21-2007, 07:01 PM
What did he do yesterday, drove in one and he scored one and the rbi was a timely hit.

Indeed, yesterday, one of his many grounders up the middle got through for a RBI single. That will happen 20-25% of the time.
When he starts rapping balls into the outfield, off walls or liners, then he might be turning into a hitter.

russ99
04-21-2007, 07:06 PM
I thought this thread was solely to critique Erstad's performace, but it's just a thinly veiled "Justice for Brian Anderson" thread.

Boy, all you Anderson supporters must have been pretty steamed when defensive-replacement BA was lifted for pinch-hitter Mackowiak in the 10th today...

Maybe you'll get lucky and Ozzie might give him a start tomorrow, so he can get some at-bats and I can update my sig. :tongue:

UserNameBlank
04-21-2007, 10:04 PM
Doesn't matter right now what he does it some people's eyes, on this message board. Seems like you guys already have him in the dog house.
If a player who has had an up and down, mostly crappy career is in his thirties and coming off a major surgery and his worst year ever he should be on a short leash. At the very least, that leash should be much shorter on him than a guy who is in his second year of the major leagues, a former first round draft pick and top organizational prospect, a terrific natural CF who has improved at the plate, and who had a very good ST.

Quite honestly, from day one Ozzie's decision to start Erstad over BA went against just about every logical organizational philosophy there is. Still, like any player who plays for the Sox, you give him a chance. So when Erstad sucks, like he has been, what does Ozzie do? Start BA? No, Ozzie moves him lower in the lineup so he can make outs there.

Other than a clutch RBI single the other game, a two run homer on opening day, a couple of SB's, and a couple of nice sacrifice bunts, Erstad has been basically useless. There is no reason to think that BA couldn't have provided a better offensive showing than Erstad at this point, and IMO there is no question which one of the two is the better player in the future. I said this before in another thread, actually a few others, but Erstad was not brought in to be a starter obviously because KW doesn't want him starting over BA. Ozzie just doesn't give a **** though and is starting Darin anyway.

Tragg
04-21-2007, 10:14 PM
I've been reading Guillen quotes. He says stuff like Erstad has to be in the lineup; I can't put Anderson and Molina in the same lineup. I'd like to play Anderson but winning is the most important thing.

He seems completely oblivious to the fact that Erstad is hitting .170, including a useless 0/5 today, and has hit poorly for several years in a row.

UserNameBlank
04-21-2007, 10:15 PM
I thought this thread was solely to critique Erstad's performace, but it's just a thinly veiled "Justice for Brian Anderson" thread.

Boy, all you Anderson supporters must have been pretty steamed when defensive-replacement BA was lifted for pinch-hitter Mackowiak in the 10th today...

Maybe you'll get lucky and Ozzie might give him a start tomorrow, so he can get some at-bats and I can update my sig. :tongue:
I have no problem lifting BA for a pinch hitter who is swinging the bat well. I thought that was a very good move by Ozzie at the time. What isn't a good move is using your supposed CF of the future as a defensive replacement in LF in order to start an older, injury prone guy who hasn't amounted to jack so far.

Save McCuddy's
04-21-2007, 10:33 PM
The majority of this thread seems to be missing the point. Granted, Erstad does look ridiculous at the plate and is about as dangerous as Lenny Harris at this point in his career, but he was presumably signed to be a 4th Outfielder. As a 4th outfielder and left-handed bat off the bench, he is a valuable player. He can play first as well as a very passable center and well above average left. Add to that the fact he can steal a base, and you find a pretty useful compliment to Ozuna on our bench. What boggles the mind is the fact that Rob Mackowiack is even on this team much less taking time away from the best defensive centerfielder we've got.

Ozuna and Cintron have our infield backed up and Erstad and Thome have Konerko covered. Why would we carry a guy like Mackowiack who is a .420 career slugger and unimpressive defensively at a handful of positions? Notwithstanding a couple of key hits this weekend, his presence in the lineup is much more aggravating than Erstad's.

itsnotrequired
04-21-2007, 10:37 PM
Why would we carry a guy like Mackowiack who is a .420 career slugger and unimpressive defensively at a handful of positions? Notwithstanding a couple of key hits this weekend, his presence in the lineup is much more aggravating than Erstad's.

:?:

Mackowiak may be one of the best bench players in the majors.

SABRSox
04-21-2007, 10:44 PM
Mack isn't the problem. He has a place as the super-utility guy. The problem is that our 4th and 5th OF's are starting over the guy who should have been our starting CF simply because the manager is holding a grudge.

CleeFan101
04-21-2007, 10:44 PM
Mackowiak is a good LF and a good pinch hitter. Erstad needs to be regulated to the bench. Im sure as his struggles continue Ozzie will eventually be forced to bench Erstad. Ill say a couple positives about Erstad though, he has been pretty good in CF and on the base paths.

Jerome
04-21-2007, 10:47 PM
If a player who has had an up and down, mostly crappy career is in his thirties and coming off a major surgery and his worst year ever he should be on a short leash. At the very least, that leash should be much shorter on him than a guy who is in his second year of the major leagues, a former first round draft pick and top organizational prospect, a terrific natural CF who has improved at the plate, and who had a very good ST.

Quite honestly, from day one Ozzie's decision to start Erstad over BA went against just about every logical organizational philosophy there is. Still, like any player who plays for the Sox, you give him a chance. So when Erstad sucks, like he has been, what does Ozzie do? Start BA? No, Ozzie moves him lower in the lineup so he can make outs there.

Other than a clutch RBI single the other game, a two run homer on opening day, a couple of SB's, and a couple of nice sacrifice bunts, Erstad has been basically useless. There is no reason to think that BA couldn't have provided a better offensive showing than Erstad at this point, and IMO there is no question which one of the two is the better player in the future. I said this before in another thread, actually a few others, but Erstad was not brought in to be a starter obviously because KW doesn't want him starting over BA. Ozzie just doesn't give a **** though and is starting Darin anyway.


Well put. Erstad playing over Anderson is simply mind-boggling

It's Dankerific
04-21-2007, 10:51 PM
I don't want to make a judgement on who should be starting either CF or LF. We know Anderson is an AWESOME defender. Simply put, even the 25th man should be playing more than Anderson is right now. Timo Perez played more than Anderson is right now. Its not like any of the current combination in CF or LF is batting .400. And who has Anderson even got to take a swing against? The hardest lefties in the division?

Whatever Ozzie's deal is, he needs to get over it for the good of the team. LET EVERYONE PLAY!!

PS. I wouldnt be making complimentary comments to the press in BA's position either...

itsnotrequired
04-21-2007, 11:03 PM
Mack isn't the problem. He has a place as the super-utility guy. The problem is that our 4th and 5th OF's are starting over the guy who should have been our starting CF simply because the manager is holding a grudge.

As an aside, Walker has stated that in 2006, Anderson had a mechanics problem with his swing that everyone hoped would be corrected. Has this happened yet? Conventional wisdom is that Anderson is in Ozzie's doghouse but maybe he hasn't corrected his swing? Anyone know more about this?

jabrch
04-21-2007, 11:19 PM
The sheer volume of bitching, while we are in the midst of a 4 game winning streak is simply amazing.

itsnotrequired
04-21-2007, 11:23 PM
The sheer volume of bitching, while we are in the midst of a 4 game winning streak is simply amazing.

Sadly, the Sox have to go 162-0 for some people to stop bitching...and even then they will gripe that every game wasn't perfect with 50 HRs for each Sox player.:redneck

CLR01
04-21-2007, 11:41 PM
Sadly, the Sox have to go 162-0 for some people to stop bitching...and even then they will gripe that every game wasn't perfect with 50 HRs for each Sox player.:redneck

I won't be happy until Ozzie lets my boy Ersty play all three outfield positions, plus 3b and SS, simultaneously. He may or may not be doing a one man kite battling show for the kiddies at the same time.

UserNameBlank
04-21-2007, 11:58 PM
As an aside, Walker has stated that in 2006, Anderson had a mechanics problem with his swing that everyone hoped would be corrected. Has this happened yet? Conventional wisdom is that Anderson is in Ozzie's doghouse but maybe he hasn't corrected his swing? Anyone know more about this?
Walker said this ST that Anderson looked bad in 2006 and would have to get by on defense. The reason he brought that up is because in the same interview he was talking about how much better Brian's swing looked and how he thought Brian was ready to be a major league hitter.

So during ST BA got the endorsements of Walker and KW, outplayed Erstad, and barely made the team as a fifth OF. The competition should have been Erstad vs. Terrero, and a legitimate case could be made that even Terrero is a better option than Erstad despite the fact that he bats right handed.

*Edit: Technically BA is the 6th OF since Mack and Ozuna are primarily OF's themselves. So the best defensive player on the team is a 6th OF who usually only plays LF late in the game... right, Ozzie. I'm not buying that ****.

FarWestChicago
04-22-2007, 12:04 AM
The sheer volume of bitching, while we are in the midst of a 4 game winning streak is simply amazing.

Sadly, the Sox have to go 162-0 for some people to stop bitching...and even then they will gripe that every game wasn't perfect with 50 HRs for each Sox player.:redneckThe irony is the REH's are making Anderson completely despicable. Unlike them, I never hope a Sox player does poorly. But, if I were like them, I would be hoping Anderson sucks after their incessant, childish behavior. :smile:

itsnotrequired
04-22-2007, 12:14 AM
Walker said this ST that Anderson looked bad in 2006 and would have to get by on defense. The reason he brought that up is because in the same interview he was talking about how much better Brian's swing looked and how he thought Brian was ready to be a major league hitter.

So during ST BA got the endorsements of Walker and KW, outplayed Erstad, and barely made the team as a fifth OF. The competition should have been Erstad vs. Terrero, and a legitimate case could be made that even Terrero is a better option than Erstad despite the fact that he bats right handed.

*Edit: Technically BA is the 6th OF since Mack and Ozuna are primarily OF's themselves. So the best defensive player on the team is a 6th OF who usually only plays LF late in the game... right, Ozzie. I'm not buying that ****.

My understanding is that Anderson had a flaw in his swing in 2006 and Walker hoped "he would work it out". Now it is 2007 and I believe Walker said that Anderson swing has "improved". Improvement is great and all but was the problem actually corrected? If not, Anderson may be being benched because of it.

It isn't like Ersatd is a Mackowiak in center. If there is no reason to believe in Anderson's bat, why should he play over Ersatd? Sure, Anderson could be sent down but he has already excelled at the AAA level on offense. What more can he learn down there? He has to get ABs against major league pitching but at the same time, the Sox need to win now. I'll admit it is a catch 22 but is it really a "Brian is in Ozzie's doghouse" situation?

madness356
04-22-2007, 12:49 AM
It isn't like Ersatd is a Mackowiak in center. If there is no reason to believe in Anderson's bat, why should he play over Ersatd? Sure, Anderson could be sent down but he has already excelled at the AAA level on offense. What more can he learn down there? He has to get ABs against major league pitching but at the same time, the Sox need to win now. I'll admit it is a catch 22 but is it really a "Brian is in Ozzie's doghouse" situation?YES, it is. Darin Erstad is grinding his way to an incredible .451 OPS. That is not just bad, that is astoundingly bad. For comparison, Anderson in April OPSed .554 and in May, .573, and even in his god-awful September, .558. Keep in mind that he had a 3 month stretch where that number was closer to .800 and that he showed up at spring training looking better. Also, Anderson actually has upside, given that he is 10 years younger than Erstad, and he is a better defensive player.

Even ignoring those last two factors, why would you expect him to regress 100 points in OPS from last year? It makes no sense.

The only explanations are 1) that ozzie guillen is just THAT dumb, or 2) there is a serious conflict between ozzie and Brian.

(Also, Anderson's first AB of the year was a double, which I guess wasn't good enough for ozzie, since he spent the next 9 days on the bench.

lumpyspun
04-22-2007, 12:57 AM
(Also, Anderson's first AB of the year was a double, which I guess wasn't good enough for ozzie, since he spent the next 9 days on the bench.

He also has 3 strike outs in his 7 other at bats. Not that I think that means a lot, but as long as you are analyzing individual at bats...

itsnotrequired
04-22-2007, 01:01 AM
YES, it is. Darin Erstad is grinding his way to an incredible .451 OPS. That is not just bad, that is astoundingly bad. For comparison, Anderson in April OPSed .554 and in May, .573, and even in his god-awful September, .558. Keep in mind that he had a 3 month stretch where that number was closer to .800 and that he showed up at spring training looking better. Also, Anderson actually has upside, given that he is 10 years younger than Erstad, and he is a better defensive player.

Even ignoring those last two factors, why would you expect him to regress 100 points in OPS from last year? It makes no sense.

The only explanations are 1) that ozzie guillen is just THAT dumb, or 2) there is a serious conflict between ozzie and Brian.

(Also, Anderson's first AB of the year was a double, which I guess wasn't good enough for ozzie, since he spent the next 9 days on the bench.

It's the middle of ****ing April. A couple decent games and Erstad looks like a hero.

It isn't that I am a huge Erstad supporter but more that I don't understand why so many believe Anderson is some kind of lynch pin that will make this team the '27 Yankees. What is it with Sox fans and their CFs?

I find it hard to believe that KW would allow Ozzie to carry a personal beef this long. My take is that he recognizes that even if Anderson was in there, it isn't like this team would be undefeated. Something else is going on behind the scene that we don't know about.

cburns
04-22-2007, 01:12 AM
I'm neither an Erstad hater nor an Anderson supporter (is that a double negative?) Right now, I'd like to see Brian in center and Erstad in left, just because the defense would be nice and it would get BA his at bats.

madness356
04-22-2007, 01:12 AM
If that were Anderson out there right now with the .451 OPS after 59 at-bats, he would be straight on his way to the minors.

I can understand ozzie wanting to give Erstad some time to work it out (though I don't think he is going to be as productive as Anderson was LAST year) but the way he has handled Anderson has shown serious contempt.

1) Putting Anderson in left instead of center as a defensive replacement makes literally no sense, unless you honestly think that Erstad is a better centerfielder than Anderson.

2) Sitting him 8 days after he hits a double in his first at-bat of the season

3) Not starting him against Nate Robertson, a pitcher who he had some success against, and then coming up with a completely non-sensical excuse

4) Talking about how he blew it in spring training despite putting up numbers substantially better than Erstad and Terrero

5) The pinch-running thing today. Getting him excited to get his 9th at-bat of the season and then pulling him from the on-deck circle and sending Mack up. (I would've been sort of alright with that pinch-hit, but he let Anderson go out there and pulling him back in is just cruel).

Ozzie HATES Brian Anderson, that is literally the only explanation.

SpartanSoxFan
04-22-2007, 01:14 AM
I don't understand all the Darin Erstad hate around here. You know he is a proven commodity, assuming he is healthy and has recovered from his injury. He plays serviceable defense at CF and will hit with some degree of consistency that is better than Anderson. IMHO he is the most balanced candidate to play center field for the '07 Sox.

madness356
04-22-2007, 01:23 AM
He is worse right now than Anderson ever was last year. By a lot.

itsnotrequired
04-22-2007, 01:34 AM
He is worse right now than Anderson ever was last year. By a lot.

When you compare Ersatd's 2007 stats to Anderson's 2006 stats on April 22, Erstad has a higher AVE, OBP, SLG, OPS, H, HR and BB. Anderson had more 2B but also had more Ks...by a lot. By April 9, Anderson had as many Ks as Erstad.

Frontman
04-22-2007, 07:38 AM
When you compare Ersatd's 2007 stats to Anderson's 2006 stats on April 22, Erstad has a higher AVE, OBP, SLG, OPS, H, HR and BB. Anderson had more 2B but also had more Ks...by a lot. By April 9, Anderson had as many Ks as Erstad.


Aww man, its too early for stats. How dare you bring solid evidence into a debate! Can't you see, its things like that that gives Ozzie all the reasons in the world to keep BA on the bench! :D:

wassagstdu
04-22-2007, 07:58 AM
If a player who has had an up and down, mostly crappy career is in his thirties and coming off a major surgery and his worst year ever he should be on a short leash.

Anyone remember how Jermaine Dye started out 2005 coming off a major injury -- and how that came out?

itsnotrequired
04-22-2007, 07:59 AM
Aww man, its too early for stats. How dare you bring solid evidence into a debate! Can't you see, its things like that that gives Ozzie all the reasons in the world to keep BA on the bench! :D:

When someone hates a player, they will say anything to reassure themselves of that feeling. This includes making stuff up with the hopes that no one will check it out.

Erstad's numbers to date are nothing to write home about but to say he is "worse than Anderson ever was last year by a lot" is a total farce.

itsnotrequired
04-22-2007, 08:02 AM
Anyone remember how Jermaine Dye started out 2005 coming off a major injury -- and how that came out?

As of May 16, Dye was batting under .200. People here were ready to hang KW for such a "terrible signing."

:rolleyes:

Tragg
04-22-2007, 08:15 AM
When you compare Ersatd's 2007 stats to Anderson's 2006 stats on April 22, Erstad has a higher AVE, OBP, SLG, OPS, H, HR and BB. Anderson had more 2B but also had more Ks...by a lot. By April 9, Anderson had as many Ks as Erstad.

And advance two days and Anderson has double the home runs (including a 2 out game tying home run in Seattle) and a superior OPS - as a rookie batting out of the 9 hole (versus Erstad having Iguchi or Thome protecting him virtually all season long).

itsnotrequired
04-22-2007, 08:19 AM
And advance two days and Anderson has double the home runs (including a 2 out game tying home run in Seattle) and a superior OPS - as a rookie batting out of the 9 hole (versus Erstad having Iguchi or Thome protecting him virtually all season long).

Who knows what Erstad will do in the next two days? And who cares if one is a rookie and one is a veteran? The point remains that Erstad is simply not doing "a lot worse" than Anderson was last year.

Iguchi and Thome are protecting Erstad? I didn't realize Ersatd had turned into a feared hitter.

Tragg
04-22-2007, 08:22 AM
The sheer volume of bitching, while we are in the midst of a 4 game winning streak is simply amazing.

I's discussion of an issue.

Speaking of volume, what about July, when suddenly all of these other players on other teams are so much better than the Sox - does pining for a trade of a bunch of our players who have a 10 game lead in the standings (versus discussing a player hitting .170) for, say, the "elite" AJ Burnett, constitute bitching?

I say no - it constitutes dubious judgment, but not bitching - just discussing an issue, just like this thread.

KyWhiSoxFan
04-22-2007, 08:25 AM
The problem is that CF continues to be a problem. I don't think many people are comfortable with either Erstad or Anderson right now. After what the team went through last year, I was hoping the Sox started 2006 with the CF problem fixed. It's not. I know everyone hopes that either Erstad or BA is the solution, but it is just hope right now.

If it's still a problem a month from now, the Sox may have to trade for someone.

UserNameBlank
04-22-2007, 11:06 AM
Anyone remember how Jermaine Dye started out 2005 coming off a major injury -- and how that came out?
You are actually going to try to compare Jermaine Dye to Darin Erstad????

And no, Dye wasn't coming off a major surgery starting 2005. It was 2003 where he only played 65 games. He played 137 in 2004 with Oakland, hit .265/.329/.464 with 23 HR's and 80 RBI's during his comeback here. Between 1999 and 2002, when he was an everyday player, his worst year was 2002 where he hit .252/.333/.459 with 24 HR's and 86 RBI's. 2003 he was injured, and that was the only hiccup in JD's career. After coming to the Sox he said he changed his approach after watching Frank Thomas and boom, more home runs. JD was always a good hitter. Erstad, not so much.

*Edit: Before coming to the Sox, JD played pretty much his entire career in Oakland and KC, two pitchers ballparks. It is not so crazy to think that with a slight change in his approach plus a move to the Cell would drastically increase his home run totals. There is nothing about Erstad though that says he will fare better in any way in Chicago since he has virtually no power, doesn't get on base enough to score a ton of runs, and the Sox don't play in a park with a fast infield so his little grinders aren't going to get through like they would in say Minnesota.

Jurr
04-22-2007, 11:26 AM
I see that the argument against Erstad lies solely with the concept that he's hindering Anderson's development. Okay. Got it.

The thing that Erstad brings to the offense (and the team in general) is an even-keeled approach, based on the fact that he's been around the block.

A lot of people are very reactionary. After the first couple of games, everyone was stating that Erstad was going to be the FA acquisition of the year in MLB. A couple of weeks later, everyone is bemoaning the fact that he was even signed. As the year pans out, I believe that the overall reaction is going to be somewhere in between, which is all KW ever intended.

This guy won't hit .300. He won't belt 30 homers. What he's going to do is play a good CF, get his hits, and drive in some key runs during the season. Where Anderson may have more upside, Erstad will bring a little more experience in tough situations. I believe the Sox won a 5-4 game the other night with an Erstad RBI single. That's all you can ask for.

Yes, it would be nice to have some all-star caliber CF on the team, or at every position for that matter. The South Side Yankees. That's just not going to happen. What you hope for is a guy that can play his position, move runners over, and get you some production, especially late in games.

Over the course of the season, that's probably what we're going to get out of Darin. Two weeks do not make a season just as two good games don't. If the guy's straddling the Mendoza line in late May, then we may have an issue, but I'd figure that Ozzie would be smart enough to have pulled him by then.

Craig Grebeck
04-22-2007, 11:45 AM
Anderson can put up numbers much better than what Erstad can. That's the argument. But, he's not getting any opportunity to prove himself. It's ****ing ridiculous.

itsnotrequired
04-22-2007, 11:46 AM
A lot of people are very reactionary. After the first couple of games, everyone was stating that Erstad was going to be the FA acquisition of the year in MLB. A couple of weeks later, everyone is bemoaning the fact that he was even signed. As the year pans out, I believe that the overall reaction is going to be somewhere in between, which is all KW ever intended.

:thumbsup:

If people are looking for instant gratification, go watch football.

Jurr
04-22-2007, 12:04 PM
Anderson can put up numbers much better than what Erstad can. That's the argument. But, he's not getting any opportunity to prove himself. It's ****ing ridiculous.
I'm glad that you know Anderson's upside and potential to help the Sox win games more than the staff that decides such.

Flash back to the Aaron Rowand or Crede days. Did you know that "manos" was playing third and Carl Everett was playing center to keep these players off the field? I understand that the two youngsters could've been in there learning, but the emphasis was on winning with veterans. After a string of chances, the two kids finally took advantage of their opportunities, and became fixtures in the Sox lineup. Anderson is going to get another chance at some point, and this time, he damn sure better step up.

Until then, we have a serviceable CF to patrol the outfield. He's not Vernon Wells or anything, but he'll do.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-22-2007, 12:23 PM
Brian Anderson is the 25th man on the Sox roster. If Scott Podsednik wasn't hurt, he almost certainly would be in Charlotte right now because NO WAY Ozzie doesn't carry the extra pitcher.

Fighting about the plight of the 25th man is a time-honored tradition at WSI, and amongst Sox Fans more generally. Hell, I can remember some huge debates with friends of mine over whether Craig Grebeck ought to be starting ahead of Steve Sax, and that one goes all the way back to 1992! We argued over beers sitting on barstools, not internet computers. Same thing...
:wink:

Is Anderson better than Erstad? Who really knows for sure? It was Willie Harris who crossed homeplate with the first Chicago baseball championship in 88 years, but he was basically a 25th man the entire season, too. We'll never *know* how much better he could have been if Iguchi wasn't taking all his AB's away from him.

Who knows... and thus, ultimately... who cares?

Anderson is good enough to ride the pine for Ozzie. That's all we really know.
:cool:

ode to veeck
04-22-2007, 12:33 PM
Anderson can put up numbers much better than what Erstad can. That's the argument. But, he's not getting any opportunity to prove himself. It's ****ing ridiculous.


And he's a much better defensive CF than anyone on the roster or that has been on the team the last several years

CLR01
04-22-2007, 12:57 PM
:thumbsup:

If people are looking for instant gratification, go watch football.


:thumbsup:

I love it when we agree. Put in the 2nd year player, who just barely has over 400 major league at bats, and let him do his thing. The people who are expecting .300 30, 80 can go jump off a bridge. He is the future and we need to get him at bats sometime. I wish people would get it as easy as you do.


Brian Anderson is the 25th man on the Sox roster. If Scott Podsednik wasn't hurt, he almost certainly would be in Charlotte right now because NO WAY Ozzie doesn't carry the extra pitcher.

Scott wasn't injured to start the year and surprise surprise Brain Anderson was on the team.

ThomesHomie
04-22-2007, 01:10 PM
Not sure if he has always done this, but anyone today notice Erstad doing the bat thing that Thome does before a stance ? Also the swing he took, almost looked exactly like Thome's

itsnotrequired
04-22-2007, 01:19 PM
Not sure if he has always done this, but anyone today notice Erstad doing the bat thing that Thome does before a stance ? Also the swing he took, almost looked exactly like Thome's

Who do you think taught Thome how to hit?

:redneck

PaleHoseGeorge
04-22-2007, 01:29 PM
Scott wasn't injured to start the year and surprise surprise Brain Anderson was on the team.

I stand corrected, Anderson is not the Sox' 25th man. He's our 24th.
:cool:

Maybe I'm the strange one, but somehow I'm not losing a minute's sleep over this obvious travesty of justice.

Free Huey! Free Bobby! Free Anderson!

CLR01
04-22-2007, 01:34 PM
I stand corrected, Anderson is not the Sox' 25th man. He's our 24th.
:cool:


Don't you forget it. :wink:

balke
04-22-2007, 01:35 PM
I stand corrected, Anderson is not the Sox' 25th man. He's our 24th.
:cool:

Maybe I'm the strange one, but somehow I'm not losing a minute's sleep over this obvious travesty of justice.

Free Huey! Free Bobby! Free Anderson!




KW's quote summed it up, he's gonna have to do something with what playing time he does get. Noone is going to be given someone else's job. Ozzie said he's gonna play Anderson in KC. If Anderson is going to pull a few 0-fers there, it'll be even longer til his next start. I want him to succeed, but I understand he's got something he has to prove after last season.

Malgar 12
04-23-2007, 11:20 AM
. We'll never *know* how much better he could have been if Iguchi wasn't taking all his AB's away from him.

:cool:


Sorry, but by that point we KNEW Harris was not a major league hitter. He got a hit in game four, thank the Lord, but his qualifications were and are well established. He's a Major League Designated Runner...period.

maurice
04-23-2007, 04:44 PM
Ozzie said he's gonna play Anderson in KC. If Anderson is going to pull a few 0-fers there, it'll be even longer til his next start.

I doubt he gets the chance "to pull a few 0-fers," no matter what Ozzie says. He'll be lucky to get 3 ABs the entire series. It's now abundantly clear that you can't believe anything Ozzie says when it comes to Anderson. It's 4/23, and he only has 9 ABs. That's almost the same number as Molina (8 ABs). Every other position player has more. So much for all the people who were sure that Ozzie wouldn't overplay Erstad and Podsednik.
:rolleyes:

Even if he does go 0-for-KC, it's clear that Anderson's actual performance has absolutely no impact on his playing time. Get 2 hits on opening day? Benched for game 2. Hit 2 HR off of King Felix? Benched the next time we face him. Hit well from mid-June through the end of August? Lots of Mack in CF. Do very well in spring training? Benched and threatened to be demoted in favor of 2 guys who did worse. Get a 2B in your only AB? Benched for a week.

DickAllen72
04-23-2007, 06:16 PM
What does Erstad bring to the Sox lineup? Speed.

I'm shocked and amazed at how fast he gets down the line. I never thought he was that fast even before all his injuries. He's a good step and a half faster down the line then Pods.

Only time will tell if he can get on base enough to allow his speed to even matter, but I never expected that he would be so fast.

Madscout
04-23-2007, 07:53 PM
KW's quote summed it up, he's gonna have to do something with what playing time he does get. Noone is going to be given someone else's job.

Unless that person is named Darin Erstad.

CLR01
04-23-2007, 07:59 PM
Unless that person is named Darin Erstad.

If BA looked as good walking back to the dugout as my boy Ersty does he too could be starting.

Tragg
04-23-2007, 08:11 PM
I doubt he gets the chance "to pull a few 0-fers," no matter what Ozzie says. He'll be lucky to get 3 ABs the entire series. It's now abundantly clear that you can't believe anything Ozzie says when it comes to Anderson. It's 4/23, and he only has 9 ABs. That's almost the same number as Molina (8 ABs). Every other position player has more. So much for all the people who were sure that Ozzie wouldn't overplay Erstad and Podsednik.


Nice summary. What's also odd is that the alternative to Anderson is so miserable offensively himself - he's declined for years, low average, rarely walks and has had one extra base hit all year (and a handful of hits of any kind out of the infield all year). Anderson wasn't exemplary at the plate last year - but THIS is the guy we don't give him any more chances for?

And stranger, this Ozzie-style hitter leads off or bats 2nd. Note - when he hit in the 7 hole Saturday, we scored 7 runs.

I think KW's answer will not be to force Ozzie to play Anderson -but to get a legitimate major league CF in here.

Grzegorz
04-23-2007, 09:03 PM
I'm shocked and amazed at how fast he gets down the line. I never thought he was that fast even before all his injuries. He's a good step and a half faster down the line then Pods.


He was a sprinter in high school. He was also quite the athlete in college at Nebraska.

He also covered a lot of ground in CF some years ago; just look at his range factors.

He looks as if he can run somewhat as he did in the past and much better than he did in the 2005 playoffs.

As for BA it looks at this point as if BA has no place on this team.

ThomesHomie
04-25-2007, 12:37 AM
So what do you say about him now ? He is coming around, two doubles tonight. Two runs, Two rbi's and what did he do yesterday?

He is coming around

Frater Perdurabo
04-25-2007, 06:22 AM
So what do you say about him now ? He is coming around, two doubles tonight. Two runs, Two rbi's and what did he do yesterday?

He is coming around

As the thread starter, I absolutely will give credit where credit is due. Good job, Darin. Keep up the good work.
:D:

itsnotrequired
04-25-2007, 07:36 AM
So what do you say about him now ? He is coming around, two doubles tonight. Two runs, Two rbi's and what did he do yesterday?

He is coming around

...and when he slumps for a week again at some point in the future, people will be calling for his and Ozzie's head.

Sox fans can be a fickle bunch.:D:

spiffie
04-25-2007, 09:56 AM
...and when he slumps for a week again at some point in the future, people will be calling for his and Ozzie's head.

Sox fans can be a fickle bunch.:D:
Apparently the backup/traded away/minor league CF has become to Sox fans what the backup QB is to Bears fans.

Tragg
04-25-2007, 11:01 AM
So what do you say about him now ? He is coming around, two doubles tonight. Two runs, Two rbi's and what did he do yesterday?

He is coming around
I readily concede that over the course of a year, he will hit .270, obp of .320 and 7 home runs.
To me, that's signficantly insufficient production from the CF.

UserNameBlank
04-25-2007, 11:20 AM
...and when he slumps for a week again at some point in the future, people will be calling for his and Ozzie's head.

Sox fans can be a fickle bunch.:D:
I'll always be negative on Erstad until he puts together a good solid two weeks. I think he's something like 4-18 or so in good games this season.

Aside from that, BA needs to be sent down right now. Ozzie doesn't want to play him and despite a solid basehit last night, a walk the night before, and a real nice catch in CF, I don't think anything will change.

Bring up Terrero as the backup CF and send Brian down so at least he can play and hopefully raise his trade value, because it is pretty clear that as long as Ozzie in charge Brian is not the CF of the future.

KyWhiSoxFan
04-25-2007, 11:29 AM
In some ways, the Sox are worse off this year than last year between LF and CF. Last year, the question was only CF. This year, with Pods injured, it affects both the LF position and the leadoff spot.

With Pods now having trouble two years in a row, if I were KW I would immediately try to find a new leadoff hitter via trade. I don't think Erstad is the solution at leadoff. He is marginal at CF at his current batting pace. He really needs to step it up and fast.

Rowandws33
04-25-2007, 12:10 PM
good job by Darin last night...way to get the job done..

RCWHITESOX
04-25-2007, 02:37 PM
I have no problem at all with Erstad in CF. He is a gold glove either in the of or 1B. What the Sox need is a LF who can lead off . Pods is always hurt and maybe they can package Anderson and some minor league talent to get someone like Badelli. If the Sox want to win now Package Anderson ; the Sox are loaded with OF talent for the future. I don't think we want a gap of 1959-2006 again!

CHISOXFAN13
04-25-2007, 02:41 PM
I have no problem at all with Erstad in CF. He is a gold glove either in the of or 1B. What the Sox need is a LF who can lead off . Pods is always hurt and maybe they can package Anderson and some minor league talent to get someone like Badelli. If the Sox want to win now Package Anderson ; the Sox are loaded with OF talent for the future. I don't think we want a gap of 1959-2006 again!

If you are going to get Baldelli it's going to take pitching, not a package of Anderson and something. The Rays are LOADED with outfielders.

maurice
04-25-2007, 03:03 PM
What the Sox need is a LF who can lead off.

Baldelli career OBP = .329.

Pods is always hurt

So is Baldelli.

Go get Ichiro!

UserNameBlank
04-25-2007, 03:47 PM
From MLB Trade Rumors (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/):


Ken Rosenthal was a guest on 610 WIP's morning show and reiterated that Scott Linebrink was now probably available for a trade. While Rosenthal said a few days ago that Kevin Towers would like to find the Padres center fielder of the future, this morning he said that the Pods are interested in a left fielder that can hit a bit. In addition, he mentioned that the Phillies and Padres may revisit the Aaron Rowand/Linebrink talks of the early spring.


Granted, we don't especially need another arm in the pen right now, especially with all the starters down in Triple A and Dewon Day kicking ass and taking names in Birmingham, but Linebrink has been rumored to be available for quite a while.

If there were indeed talks about a Linebrink-for-Rowand deal, which I would imagine would include another small piece from Philly, Anderson would certainly be a much better bet for SD. Maybe we could throw in something to get another young starter instead of Linebrink who is IIRC close to FA? Or maybe take Linebrink and shop one of our bullpen arms and one of our up-and-coming #4-#5 starters for an OF?

I don't really want to trade Anderson and if it were me he'd be playing everyday, but I'd rather ship him off for a valuable piece if Ozzie isn't going to use him. He's ready to develop in the Majors now and deserves the shot somewhere else if he can't get it here.

spiffie
04-25-2007, 04:10 PM
From MLB Trade Rumors (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/):



Granted, we don't especially need another arm in the pen right now, especially with all the starters down in Triple A and Dewon Day kicking ass and taking names in Birmingham, but Linebrink has been rumored to be available for quite a while.

If there were indeed talks about a Linebrink-for-Rowand deal, which I would imagine would include another small piece from Philly, Anderson would certainly be a much better bet for SD. Maybe we could throw in something to get another young starter instead of Linebrink who is IIRC close to FA? Or maybe take Linebrink and shop one of our bullpen arms and one of our up-and-coming #4-#5 starters for an OF?

I don't really want to trade Anderson and if it were me he'd be playing everyday, but I'd rather ship him off for a valuable piece if Ozzie isn't going to use him. He's ready to develop in the Majors now and deserves the shot somewhere else if he can't get it here.
Despite what we may think of Anderson's potential, at this point I doubt any other team would consider Anderson to be more of a hitter than Rowand. Rowand has hit well on the major league level, and has a reputation as a winner and an all-out player. Anderson has potential, a seemingly developing rep as a party guy and malcontent, and a major league average hovering around .220.

That said, I'd gladly ship Anderson and something else small for Linebrink.

RCWHITESOX
04-25-2007, 04:21 PM
Sure I would love the Sox to go get Ichiro but you know that Jerry is not going to pony up the $ to keep him. I agree that Badelli was hurt last year but he is young and healthy now and a perfect fit in the OF and at the leadoff spot. I could also mention Crawford but again you now that he falls into the same category as Ichiro $$$. As for Rowland sure he's a upgrade in the OF but he is not a leadoff hitter which is exactly what the Sox need. As for Anderson I'm not a believer as I could name several young Of 'S that are playing now with much better numbers than he had playing the majority of last year. He looks to me much the the same as J Reed with a little pop in his bat when he connects.

UserNameBlank
04-25-2007, 04:43 PM
Despite what we may think of Anderson's potential, at this point I doubt any other team would consider Anderson to be more of a hitter than Rowand. Rowand has hit well on the major league level, and has a reputation as a winner and an all-out player. Anderson has potential, a seemingly developing rep as a party guy and malcontent, and a major league average hovering around .220.

That said, I'd gladly ship Anderson and something else small for Linebrink.

Brian is only 25, has the pedigree of former 1st round pick, makes the league minimum and is under control by whoever owns him for a long time, plays exceptional D, has a good arm, has some power potential, and only has had 412 AB's in the major leagues so far. He has to work on his plate discipline but it is certainly not something that would be impossible for him to improve upon.

Rowand has had one career year and aside from that he is a free agent next year and is making over $4mil. Cameron is also a FA after this year, so they would need a CF after that, not now. It says that the Pads are looking for some more offense, and neither of Anderson or Rowand are going to provide that, but at least Anderson has the potential become another Cameron for them in the future, at least in terms of defense and power.

BTW, not you, but for all the BA-haters who think Brian is useless, Cameron has been a pretty good player throughout his career while posting a career line of .251/.341/.444. Brian might be able to do that too if given the chance. Now I'm not saying that Brian has Cameron's trade value, but Cameron was the centerpiece in trades for PK and Griffey, so Brian should at least get us something valuable.

Again though, I don't want to trade him since we wouldn't have anyone else to take over CF, but Ozzie just doesn't want to use him now, and the longer he sits on the bench doing nothing, the less valuable he will be to the Sox.

maurice
04-26-2007, 02:12 PM
I agree that Rowand is not an ideal leadoff hitter, because of his .338 career OBP. OTOH, why discount Rowand in this role but advocate for the .329 OPB Baldelli? It's not like Rocco is stealing 60 bags a year.

Grzegorz
04-26-2007, 02:19 PM
Brian is only 25, has the pedigree of former 1st round pick, makes the league minimum and is under control by whoever owns him for a long time, plays exceptional D, has a good arm, has some power potential, and only has had 412 AB's in the major leagues so far. He has to work on his plate discipline but it is certainly not something that would be impossible for him to improve upon.


Italics mine...

It is when you do not get any at bats. Play him, send him down, or trade him...

Let's end this soap opera.

ThomesHomie
04-28-2007, 01:51 AM
Cough Cough, hmm

wassagstdu
04-28-2007, 10:02 AM
Erstad is batting .428 (9-for-21) with four doubles, five RBIs and five runs scored in his last five games.

jabrch
04-28-2007, 10:11 AM
Erstad is batting .428 (9-for-21) with four doubles, five RBIs and five runs scored in his last five games.

Great - good for DE and the team.

But 5 games, either positive or negative, don't make a season.

I'm a fan of Erstad and what he does for the team, those things that are measured and those that are not. I hope he ends the season somewhere around his career averages. (.285/.340) If he does that, this team will score a lot of runs.

Frater Perdurabo
04-28-2007, 10:35 AM
I hope he ends the season somewhere around his career averages. (.285/.340) If he does that, this team will score a lot of runs.

If Erstad puts up those numbers while also doing "grinderly" things: advancing runners by hitting the ball to the right side, bunting, running bases well, stealing bases, going from first to third or scoring from second on a single, scoring from first on a double and playing good defense, I will be extremely pleased and satisfied.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-28-2007, 01:24 PM
Before the season started, somebody wiser than me wrote here that whoever plays best will get most of the playing time. Oh wait, that was me.
:redface:

Anyway... I'm glad we have Erstad here... and I'm glad Anderson is around for insurance. If somebody better becomes available (either in the minors or in trade), send them our way. Meanwhile the status quo suits me fine.

I'm a SOX FAN, and my only allegiance is to a winning effort.

A.T. Money
04-28-2007, 01:34 PM
I think people like to bitch.....just to bitch.

Erstad is fine with me. Anyone is better than Anderson. Anderson sucks.

jabrch
04-28-2007, 02:29 PM
I'm a SOX FAN, and my only allegiance is to a winning effort.

Well said PHG.

UserNameBlank
04-28-2007, 02:40 PM
I think people like to bitch.....just to bitch.

Erstad is fine with me. Anyone is better than Anderson. Anderson sucks.
So are you admitting you like to bitch, too?

DrewSox56
04-28-2007, 08:15 PM
So are you admitting you like to bitch, too?


He is right. Erstad has been a MASSIVE improvement over Anderson.

UserNameBlank
04-28-2007, 08:39 PM
He is right. Erstad has been a MASSIVE improvement over Anderson.
Erstad has been hot for about a week or so. Anderson hasn't been playing. How are you so sure that Anderson would not have started producing by now if he were the everyday CF? A "massive" improvement over Brian is Andruw Jones, Ichiro, Alex Rios, etc. Erstad at best will be a "marginal" improvement.

Tragg
04-28-2007, 08:53 PM
Erstad is hitting .250 as a lead-off 2/hole hitter; that's not good. Is it better than Anderson at 9 hole is or was? Maybe - but it still isn't good.
As the season goes on, Erstad will hit about average for a CF...big deal.

There is such a gap between an all star like Ichiro and a below average hitter like Erstad....it's not like the next step up from Erstad is Ichiro.

oeo
04-28-2007, 09:44 PM
Erstad is hitting .250 as a lead-off 2/hole hitter; that's not good. Is it better than Anderson at 9 hole is or was? Maybe - but it still isn't good.
As the season goes on, Erstad will hit about average for a CF...big deal.

There is such a gap between an all star like Ichiro and a below average hitter like Erstad....it's not like the next step up from Erstad is Ichiro.

Once again, if you just take a quick look at the stats and see he's only batting .250, it looks bad. Just a couple of weeks ago he was batting as low as .156. Not including tonight, he's batting .342 in his last 8 games.

fuzzy_patters
04-28-2007, 10:59 PM
Interestingly enough, Erstad is hitting .316 (.366 OBP) when hitting lead-off and .266 (.270 OBP) when hitting second.

DrCrawdad
04-28-2007, 11:08 PM
I'm a SOX FAN, and my only allegiance is to a winning effort.

I'm with ya there PHG. I want the Sox to win, if that means parting with prized prospects, so be it.

That said, I do not root for the guys we've sent away to flop. For example, I had high hopes for Joe Borchard with the Sox. I'm happy with who the Sox got for Borchard. But I still hope that Borchard has a successful career in MLB.

Go Kenny "the Gambler" Williams!

DrewSox56
04-28-2007, 11:13 PM
Erstad has been hot for about a week or so. Anderson hasn't been playing. How are you so sure that Anderson would not have started producing by now if he were the everyday CF?

When has Anderson been hot for a week up here?

RCWHITESOX
04-29-2007, 01:06 AM
Addressing some of Erstads bashers. #1 when the Sox signed him he was coming off injury for the last 2 years and therefor the Sox took a gamble thinking he could be a 4th OF but he is now healthy and doing more than an adequate job playing CF and leading off with Podsednik injured. Think where they would be with out him. Also Erstad is a gold glove in the OF and 1B. #2 Until the Sox get Pods back or trade for a leadoff hitter preferably a LF Erstad is the only good option they have in the leadoff position. Please don't mention Ozuna unless he's in the DH spot because he is a butcher with a glove. As far as Anderson goes please. Mark my words at the end of this year we will all be happy Erstad is wearing a White Sox hat; I know I am.

The Dude
04-29-2007, 01:14 AM
Addressing some of Erstads bashers. #1 when the Sox signed him he was coming off injury for the last 2 years and therefor the Sox took a gamble thinking he could be a 4th OF but he is now healthy and doing more than an adequate job playing CF and leading off with Podsednik injured. Think where they would be with out him. Also Erstad is a gold glove in the OF and 1B. #2 Until the Sox get Pods back or trade for a leadoff hitter preferably a LF Erstad is the only good option they have in the leadoff position. Please don't mention Ozuna unless he's in the DH spot because he is a butcher with a glove. As far as Anderson goes please. Mark my words at the end of this year we will all be happy Erstad is wearing a White Sox hat; I know I am.


And this whole time I thought #17 was still Ross Gload! :redneck

Frater Perdurabo
04-29-2007, 07:16 AM
When has Anderson been hot for a week up here?

Since you asked, it actually was more than a week. In 2006 he was hot from June 11 though the end of August.

MetroPD
04-29-2007, 07:18 AM
And this whole time I thought #17 was still Ross Gload! :redneck
:bandance: HAHAHA!!! Oh man so funny because it could be true, and yet so sad for the same reason.......

mjmcend
04-29-2007, 08:27 AM
Gload forever baby!

chaerulez
04-29-2007, 08:38 AM
Since you asked, it actually was more than a week. In 2006 he was hot from June 11 though the end of August.

In July he hit .313 and in August in he hit .296, yeah I think Anderson has the ability to hit major league pitching.

lizard6king6
04-29-2007, 08:47 AM
No matter what you wil have people bashing someone on the Sox. We always have to find a scapegoat if we do bad and say "this guy sucks". For the longest time it was Pods, now Erstad is getting a lot of heat. Other players have gotten it as well. Just the way it is! As for Erstad, I liked the move!

PaleHoseGeorge
04-29-2007, 08:52 AM
I just wanted to note that some of you "Free Brian Anderson" types are veering dangerously close to the same cesspool that supporters of Jeremy Reed turned to, putting your guy's interests ahead of the ballclub's.

Brian Anderson was never good enough to bat any higher than EIGHTH last year, and yet you're still here trying to compare him to a lead-off/#2 hitter. Meanwhile the first month of the season has passed, and all of you have been reduced to "play or trade" arguments in defense of your guy's lousy play in limited playing time.

If Anderson ever did get traded, I have no doubt the more crackpot element of your number would start giving us Brian Anderson Updates from Tampa Bay or whichever also-ran ballclub would let him play everyday during their going-nowhere season.

:o:

Eddo144
04-29-2007, 08:54 AM
It's not that Erstad is a bad player. And it wasn't necessarily a bad signing: if I recall, it's a one year, $1M deal, which is cheap for any player (consider that the Cubs are paying DeRosa $10M for 3 years).

It's that Erstad has no business batting leadoff now. If Ozzie wants to hit him second because of all his "grinder" skills (moving runners over, hit-and-run, bunting, etc.), then that's fine too; at least Ozzie would have a reason.

But when he's batting first, all those grinder skills lose value, because theoretically, no one will be on base when he hits.

Ideally, Iguchi should be leading off when Podsednik is out. He's not the ideal leadoff hitter (he's not a base stealer), but he's good with the bat and has some nice power, which is a huge plus for a leadoff guy (think Rickey Henderson, Gary Matthews Jr., and Jimmy Rollins).

Overall, I'm happy that Erstad is starting to hit. While I'm not a huge Erstad fan, if he's helping the team, it's great. But if he's not, there's no reason to keep him in the lineup.

kevingrt
04-29-2007, 08:59 AM
How nice would having Ross Gload be right now!

champagne030
04-29-2007, 09:07 AM
I just wanted to note that some of you "Free Brian Anderson" types are veering dangerously close to the same cesspool that supporters of Jeremy Reed turned to, putting your guy's interest ahead of the ballclub's.

Brian Anderson was never good enough to bat any higher than EIGHTH last year, and yet you're still here trying to compare him to a lead-off/#2 hitter. Meanwhile the first month of the season has passed, and all of you have been reduced to "play or trade" arguments in defense of your guy's lousy play in limited playing time.

If Anderson ever did get traded, I have no doubt the more crackpot element of your number would start giving us Brian Anderson Updates from Tampa Bay or whichever also-ran ballclub would let him play everyday during their going-nowhere season.

:o:

It's not putting the interest of Brian Anderson above that of the White Sox to expect him to be starting in CF, with Erstad in LF, while Pods is on the DL. That pairing provides the Sox with the best chance of winning.

We can go round and round about who should've started in CF to begin the season, but this month-6 week period with Pods out could've made it a competition (between Erstad and Anderson) of who should be starting the majority of the time when Pods comes back.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-29-2007, 09:16 AM
It's not putting the interest of Brian Anderson above that of the White Sox to expect him to be starting in CF, with Erstad in LF, while Pods is on the DL. That pairing provides the Sox with the best chance of winning.

We can go round and round about who should've started in CF....

Look, I know for fact that Royce Clayton plays up the middle precisely because he doesn't have the arm strength to make the plays deep in the hole moving to his right. The handful of balls he reaches towards third base he merely puts in his pocket. Valentin is better if only Manuel would play him...

Yes, "we can definitely go round and round" about what would have happened if only the Sox manager was the same strategic genius you believe yourself to be.
:o:

It can't be proven, one way or another. So just stop already, okay? Nobody is falling for this silly argument.
:cool:

DrewSox56
04-29-2007, 09:40 AM
Since you asked, it actually was more than a week. In 2006 he was hot from June 11 though the end of August.

He hit .196 for the month of June (terrible), had a good July, and I wouldn't exactly call a .296/.367/.437 August "hot" with only 7 RBIs to show for it.

He strikes out a a 25% rate, he's not a baserunning threat, and he has a sub .300 OBP.

It's ridiculous to suggest that Anderson is a better option than a healthy Erstad, especially when we have a lead-off hitter out of the lineup. Hell, with our pitching being what it's been so far, I'd rather see Ozzie put Mack in center over Anderson....

oeo
04-29-2007, 10:06 AM
It's not that Erstad is a bad player. And it wasn't necessarily a bad signing: if I recall, it's a one year, $1M deal, which is cheap for any player (consider that the Cubs are paying DeRosa $10M for 3 years).

It's that Erstad has no business batting leadoff now. If Ozzie wants to hit him second because of all his "grinder" skills (moving runners over, hit-and-run, bunting, etc.), then that's fine too; at least Ozzie would have a reason.

But when he's batting first, all those grinder skills lose value, because theoretically, no one will be on base when he hits.

Ideally, Iguchi should be leading off when Podsednik is out. He's not the ideal leadoff hitter (he's not a base stealer), but he's good with the bat and has some nice power, which is a huge plus for a leadoff guy (think Rickey Henderson, Gary Matthews Jr., and Jimmy Rollins).

Overall, I'm happy that Erstad is starting to hit. While I'm not a huge Erstad fan, if he's helping the team, it's great. But if he's not, there's no reason to keep him in the lineup.

Erstad is doing better in the leadoff spot than he was in the 2-spot...why **** that up? Especially when I hate the idea of moving Iguchi out of the 2-spot because that's the only place he's been successful. The Sox have a pretty good thing going 1-2, right now, they shouldn't mess around with it.

The problem hasn't been the top of the lineup...

IndianWhiteSox
04-29-2007, 10:13 AM
He hit .196 for the month of June (terrible), had a good July, and I wouldn't exactly call a .296/.367/.437 August "hot" with only 7 RBIs to show for it.

He strikes out a a 25% rate, he's not a baserunning threat, and he has a sub .300 OBP.

It's ridiculous to suggest that Anderson is a better option than a healthy Erstad, especially when we have a lead-off hitter out of the lineup. Hell, with our pitching being what it's been so far, I'd rather see Ozzie put Mack in center over Anderson....

:o::kukoo::thud:

But otherwise I see your point.

jabrch
04-29-2007, 10:54 AM
I just wanted to note that some of you "Free Brian Anderson" types are veering dangerously close to the same cesspool that supporters of Jeremy Reed turned to, putting your guy's interests ahead of the ballclub's.

Brian Anderson was never good enough to bat any higher than EIGHTH last year, and yet you're still here trying to compare him to a lead-off/#2 hitter. Meanwhile the first month of the season has passed, and all of you have been reduced to "play or trade" arguments in defense of your guy's lousy play in limited playing time.

If Anderson ever did get traded, I have no doubt the more crackpot element of your number would start giving us Brian Anderson Updates from Tampa Bay or whichever also-ran ballclub would let him play everyday during their going-nowhere season.
b
:o:



Spot on PHG.

Tragg
04-29-2007, 11:12 AM
Erstad is a number 1/2 hitter because that's where Ozzie put him - not because he's a top hitter on this team (he isn't close). Ozzie demoted Iguchi, who has more OBP and more power, to make room for Erstad. So saying Erstad is better, by definition, because he hits at the top just begs the question - what is this guy who hacks away at everything with no power doing at the top of the lineup? Anderson has hit at the bottom of the order, with no Thome protecting him - he made progress, but he's back on the bench and is now even behind the woeful-hitting Cintron in Ozzie's offensive heirarchy.
Cintron at DH is just surreal; it just supercedes all of this discussion.

And this team scores runs, when it does, despite Ozzie-ball (swing-at-everything; no power; no walking), not because of it.

jabrch
04-29-2007, 11:44 AM
And this team scores runs, when it does, despite Ozzie-ball (swing-at-everything; no power; no walking), not because of it.

Isn't that a stitch... We win 189 games and a World Series over the course of two years and you are still bitching about it. We've had more power than nearly every team in baseball - and you are still bitching about it. We are 1.5 games out of first place - and you are still bitching about it.

It amazes me that Kenny and Ozzie still have jobs when there are so many freaking geniuses at WSI who would do such a better job.

Rob190
04-29-2007, 11:45 AM
I wouldn't say Gooch got demoted, he was lowered in the order so he could hit for more power. They wanted to do it last year, but had no one you could hit at the 2 hole.

CLR01
04-29-2007, 11:48 AM
He hit .196 for the month of June (terrible),

From 6/11-6/20 (10 days, in some cultures that is known as a week and 3 days) he played in 7 games (a game a night, 7 nights=a week!!) batting .296 with 6 RBI's and 3 BB. His reward? In true Ozzie like fashion, 6 games, 7 nights (a week) on the bench.

and I wouldn't exactly call a .296/.367/.437 August "hot" with only 7 RBIs to show for it.He drove in the run 41 percent of the time. Lets look at some other numbers shall we?

2006:
Konerko- 52%
Dye- 56%
Thome- 56%
Crede- 45%
Iguchi- 39%
Pods- 40%
Uribe- 45%
AJ- 38%

And our heroes:
Mack '06 - 30% <-----------Less than Anderson's 32% on the year!!
Mack '07 - 0% 0/6 so far
Erstad '07 - 42%
Erstad 04-06 - 38%
Rowand '07 - 30%
Rowand '06 - 31%
Rowand '05 - 40%
Rowand '04 - 41%
Rowand 04-06 - 38%

But yeah, Anderson still sucked in August because he only knocked in 41%. Never mind that his low number of 7 had as much, if not more, to do with the low number of chances. :rolleyes:

oeo
04-29-2007, 11:53 AM
It's not putting the interest of Brian Anderson above that of the White Sox to expect him to be starting in CF, with Erstad in LF, while Pods is on the DL. That pairing provides the Sox with the best chance of winning.

We can go round and round about who should've started in CF to begin the season, but this month-6 week period with Pods out could've made it a competition (between Erstad and Anderson) of who should be starting the majority of the time when Pods comes back.

Erstad and Anderson shouldn't even be a discussion. Erstad is the better man for the job, and he's proven it. You cannot disagree with that. No matter how much you mock Erstad, he has gotten the job done in the past couple of weeks. He's hitting every ball on the buttons and playing great centerfield...that does not need to be sitting on the bench. Honestly, I can't believe some of you are still trying to argue this...you have nothing in your favor.

Brian needs to take his chances and succeed with them if he wants more playing time. He's not doing that right now.

And with Pods and Thome out, why do you want to see Anderson try to fight through his struggles? We need all the offense we can get right now, Anderson doesn't give us that. We're not rebuilding; we're trying to win a championship, and Anderson isn't going to help us do that right now.