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View Full Version : Tough Question about breaking the color barrier


Railsplitter
04-14-2007, 09:13 PM
Would breaking the color barrier even be noted today if had been done by a team OUTSIDE New York? If Jack Robinson ( it's how his wife Rachel referrs to him) had been asked back by the Red Sox after a 1944 tryout or had been hurt in 1947's spring training and allowed Larry Doby to be first in Cleveland, would people even kow who did it and when?

I'll let you folks get your opions in before giving mine.

Fenway
04-14-2007, 09:37 PM
Yes people would know

Brooklyn was the best place for it to happen

Even though it was "New York" it was considered to be another world from Manhattan by the writers of the time.

Certainly Veeck in Cleveland wanted to do it ( with Doby and then Paige ) but he waited to see how it would play in the NL.

Grzegorz
04-14-2007, 10:38 PM
I've read where Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige were the first to be considered. They were ultimately not selected because MLB felt that they didn't have the temperament.

Whether that was the case I'll never know. What I do know is that Jackie Robinson was a wonderful choice.

TDog
04-15-2007, 12:43 AM
Would breaking the color barrier even be noted today if had been done by a team OUTSIDE New York? If Jack Robinson ( it's how his wife Rachel referrs to him) had been asked back by the Red Sox after a 1944 tryout or had been hurt in 1947's spring training and allowed Larry Doby to be first in Cleveland, would people even kow who did it and when?

I'll let you folks get your opions in before giving mine.


This isn't a tough question.

Breaking baseball's color barrier was historic. It would have been historic in Pittsburgh (where the black press was pushing hardest for integration) or Cleveland. Marches in Alabama in the cities are noted today, and they didn't happen in New York.

Integrating baseball might be noted more if it had been done in Cincinnati or St. Louis. Those were considered Southern cities, and the process would have been even harder. It would have been interesting if Branch Rickey had stayed in St. Louis. But racism existed everywhere. Boston's American League team, it turned out, was the last team to integrate -- in 1959. I've read that people picketed Fenway to demand the Red Sox bring up Pumpsie Green.

itsnotrequired
04-15-2007, 12:50 AM
I've read where Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige were the first to be considered. They were ultimately not selected because MLB felt that they didn't have the temperament.

Whether that was the case I'll never know. What I do know is that Jackie Robinson was a wonderful choice.

Josh Gibson had the unfortunate handicap of being dead when Jackie Robinson played his first game in the majors.

TDog
04-15-2007, 12:59 AM
Josh Gibson had the unfortunate handicap of being dead when Jackie Robinson played his first game in the majors.

Not to mention that MLB had very little to do with selecting a player to break its color barrier.

ewokpelts
04-15-2007, 06:35 AM
Not to mention that MLB had very little to do with selecting a player to break its color barrier.correct it was branch rickey all the way

TornLabrum
04-15-2007, 09:29 AM
correct it was branch rickey all the way

I give Happy Chandler an assist for not shooting it down as Landis would have done.

DumpJerry
04-15-2007, 09:53 AM
Would breaking the color barrier even be noted today if had been done by a team OUTSIDE New York?
Yes.

Grzegorz
04-15-2007, 11:07 AM
Josh Gibson had the unfortunate handicap of being dead when Jackie Robinson played his first game in the majors.

The idea didn't pop in Rickey's head in 1948; he had the idea before Robinson ever set foot on the field.

You are correct in saying that Rickey was the architect, but MLB was the winner.

itsnotrequired
04-15-2007, 11:44 AM
The idea didn't pop in Rickey's head in 1948; he had the idea before Robinson ever set foot on the field.

You are correct in saying that Rickey was the architect, but MLB was the winner.

Gibson had chronic health problems after his coma in 1943. I can't imagine he was ever seriously considered to be the first.

McGraw had a list of negro players he wanted to sign way back in the 1920s.

chaerulez
04-15-2007, 12:13 PM
Gibson had chronic health problems after his coma in 1943. I can't imagine he was ever seriously considered to be the first.

McGraw had a list of negro players he wanted to sign way back in the 1920s.

Not to mention, Gibson was a great player but he known for staying out late and doing drugs and the such. I don't think those qualities would've made him a good choice.

Lip Man 1
04-15-2007, 12:44 PM
For what it's worth history records that Jackie Robinson actually "tried out" for the White Sox, one afternoon when the team trained in California.

Manager Jimmy Dykes had no reservations about letting Robinson and another player try out.

From what Dykes said, Robinson obviously made an impression but it was never followed up on.

"He stole everything but my infielders gloves..." Dykes said in reference to the speed and ability displayed by the UCLA player.

Lip

Railsplitter
04-15-2007, 08:37 PM
I wrote this because Moses Walker played before the the color barrier and because there are some who claim integration would have never occured without Robinson.

I believe that integration was inevitable from the moment Kenesaw Mountain Landis drew his last breath. However, New York was headquarters for the Radio networks, and had at least ten daily newspapers in 1947, and as we all know, Gothamites seem to think the world revolves around New York. Of course, basbeall was first in the nation's concience as far sports went.

Case in point, The Rams were the first team to draft a black player in 1946, the eleventh year of the draft, but the NFL was not as prominent as it is today.

IMO, Robinson MIGHT have been remembered if he had played elsewhere, or Doby might have been remembered if he was first, but I'm not 1005 sure.

TDog
04-15-2007, 10:45 PM
I wrote this because Moses Walker played before the the color barrier and because there are some who claim integration would have never occured without Robinson.

I believe that integration was inevitable from the moment Kenesaw Mountain Landis drew his last breath. However, New York was headquarters for the Radio networks, and had at least ten daily newspapers in 1947, and as we all know, Gothamites seem to think the world revolves around New York. Of course, basbeall was first in the nation's concience as far sports went.

Case in point, The Rams were the first team to draft a black player in 1946, the eleventh year of the draft, but the NFL was not as prominent as it is today.

IMO, Robinson MIGHT have been remembered if he had played elsewhere, or Doby might have been remembered if he was first, but I'm not 1005 sure.


Moses Fleetwood Walker and he brother, Welday, played for Toledo in the American Association in the 19th century. They didn't break the color barrier, they preceded it. Cap Anson, among others, dedicated themselves to keeping black players out in the future. They wouldn't have been successful if they weren't in the majority.

Fleet Walker's experience in baseball turned him against integration and against America.

What happened in football has nothing to do with integration in baseball. And every team in baseball spent a lot of time on the road in New York in 1947, especially National League teams.

It is hard to believe today that integrating baseball wasn't inevitable, but you can say the same thing for black students attending the University of Alabama, but that didn't happen without a struggle that included the governor of the state physically trying to stop the enrollment of two black students in 1963.

That was only four years after the Boston Red Sox got their first black player.

Lip Man 1
04-15-2007, 11:12 PM
Who was Pumpsie Green in 1959 I believe.

Lip

Railsplitter
04-16-2007, 04:50 PM
What I'm aiming at is this:

I've heard of Jackie Robinson since I was kid, but I have to look up Kenny Washington.

Is this because Robinson played in New York or in a sport that was foremost in people's minds at the time?

Fenway
04-16-2007, 04:56 PM
Who was Pumpsie Green in 1959 I believe.

Lip

The Boston BRUINS had a black player before the Red Sox :?:

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/abcsports/photos/2001/0201/photo/a_oree_i.jpg