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soxfan123
04-11-2007, 02:13 PM
Last night, Bobby did not look good to say the least. I'm not really that upset about the game given that it's Oakland and we haven't even play 10 games yet, but he could barely hit 90. Does anyone know what the problem is? Is this temporary and he's just building up his arm strength again?

IlliniSox4Life
04-11-2007, 02:14 PM
Last night, Bobby did not look good to say the least. I'm not really that upset about the game given that it's Oakland and we haven't even play 10 games yet, but he could barely hit 90. Does anyone know what the problem is? Is this temporary and he's just building up his arm strength again?
Yes.

FedEx227
04-11-2007, 02:18 PM
You know what would be nice. If he could start throwing maybe a couple weeks earlier so that his velocity would be built up by the time the season starts? Just a little suggestion, I guess.

But I'm thinking this is not as much arm strength as it's becoming a trend.

Bobby did blow 3 saves in the final two weeks of the season last year and managed in only 2 months to bring his ERA from 2.41 to 4.00.

Closers are odd people, I just hope we don't have a confidence problem ala Lidge/Turnbow both hard-throwers who lost confidence quickly and became worthless as a result.

soxfan13
04-11-2007, 02:22 PM
It was the same thing last year. Most pitchers thru the league are still not up to their high velocity. Jenks will be fine!!

SBSoxFan
04-11-2007, 02:24 PM
Last night, Bobby did not look good to say the least. I'm not really that upset about the game given that it's Oakland and we haven't even play 10 games yet, but he could barely hit 90. Does anyone know what the problem is? Is this temporary and he's just building up his arm strength again?

Bad gun? :dunno:

spiffie
04-11-2007, 02:25 PM
You know what would be nice. If he could start throwing maybe a couple weeks earlier so that his velocity would be built up by the time the season starts? Just a little suggestion, I guess.
You do that and the odds of him being toast in August and September and, more importantly, October go up a lot. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Ozzie use some of the other guys at the end of games until Bobby is up to speed. MacDougal has shown he can close before, let him get some saves if it comes to either using him or going back-to-back days with Bobby.

oeo
04-11-2007, 02:26 PM
Last night, Bobby did not look good to say the least. I'm not really that upset about the game given that it's Oakland and we haven't even play 10 games yet, but he could barely hit 90. Does anyone know what the problem is? Is this temporary and he's just building up his arm strength again?

Although he still wasn't throwing what he can...I don't think that radar gun was correct at all last night. Embree was blowing 91-92MPH fastballs by us? Garland was at 87-88 mostly...Gaudin was around there too. I think he was hitting more than 90.

Chicken Dinner
04-11-2007, 02:27 PM
I think the 100 mph days are over but I think Wakefields fastball would have been faster than Bobby's last night.

oeo
04-11-2007, 02:29 PM
I think the 100 mph days are over but I think Wakefields fastball would have been faster than Bobby's last night.

What are you basing this off of? That's what you call jumping to conclusions, when we should know based off last year that he takes awhile to get his velocity up.

Iwritecode
04-11-2007, 02:33 PM
Although he still wasn't throwing what he can...I don't think that radar gun was correct at all last night. Embree was blowing 91-92MPH fastballs by us? Garland was at 87-88 mostly...Gaudin was around there too. I think he was hitting more than 90.

I agree with that. The gun readings looked awful low for everyone.

daveeym
04-11-2007, 02:36 PM
I agree with that. The gun readings looked awful low for everyone.
Maybe the other guns are just high for everyone.:dunno:

FedEx227
04-11-2007, 02:37 PM
Maybe the other guns are just high for everyone.:dunno:

Are you saying Joel Zumaya can't hit 105 at Comercia!?!

oeo
04-11-2007, 02:38 PM
Maybe the other guns are just high for everyone.:dunno:

I don't see Embree blowing a 91MPH fastball past Joe Crede. And that would also mean that Garland is having velocity problems, as well. Contreras on Monday, too.

HotelWhiteSox
04-11-2007, 02:50 PM
At the park last week (well one game I went to), I don't think Bobby hit over 93, if that. IIRC this was the case last year as well though

infohawk
04-11-2007, 03:03 PM
At the park last week (well one game I went to), I don't think Bobby hit over 93, if that. IIRC this was the case last year as well though
Most good closers blow a few every year. Let's just hope yesterday was just one of Bobby's expected few and not any kind of indicator. I really think it's just a building up arm strength thing. I'm not overly concerned.

churlish
04-11-2007, 03:16 PM
Are you saying Joel Zumaya can't hit 105 at Comercia!?!

I was watching a Tigers spring training game and he hit 107. For whatever reason, I don't think he can really throw 107.

jabrch
04-11-2007, 04:47 PM
He's fine...

The first three hits were grounders that happened to find holes in the IF.

I'm really not worried about Jenks.

EDIT: He looked just fine today.

soxfan123
04-11-2007, 06:32 PM
He looked good today, but those pitches were not exactly blowing by guys. It seems a little peculiar that he's not even at 95 yet. Without his power, he's just a run-of-the mill reliever with a liability with his accuracy.

JB98
04-11-2007, 06:49 PM
He looked good today, but those pitches were not exactly blowing by guys. It seems a little peculiar that he's not even at 95 yet. Without his power, he's just a run-of-the mill reliever with a liability with his accuracy.

He blew one by Chavez upstairs.

dickallen15
04-11-2007, 07:05 PM
I agree with that. The gun readings looked awful low for everyone.
Harden was at 97-98 the whole night the other night. If its slow, he's throwing over 100. The USCF gun last weekend had Jenks at 93 after about 10 pitches. The first ten he hit 89-90. The same gun had Thornton at 95. He's definitely not throwing as hard as he used to, but then again he didn't throw as hard last year as he did in 2005, but that was blamed on his being woefully out of shape. As long as he gets outs, that's the most important thing.

SoxxoS
04-11-2007, 07:07 PM
Harden was at 97-98 the whole night the other night. If its slow, he's throwing over 100. The USCF gun last weekend had Jenks at 93 after about 10 pitches. The first ten he hit 89-90. The same gun had Thornton at 95. He's definitely not throwing as hard as he used to, but then again he didn't throw as hard last year as he did in 2005, but that was blamed on his being woefully out of shape. As long as he gets outs, that's the most important thing.

True, but what happened to Billy Koch was no joke. Velocity does mean something...definitely not everything - but something.

JB98
04-11-2007, 07:19 PM
True, but what happened to Billy Koch was no joke. Velocity does mean something...definitely not everything - but something.

I feel that Bobby has more pitches than Koch. Koch just had his heater and a very average slider. Bobby's hammer is outstanding when it's on. His slider is more than adequate, and I know he fooled around with a changeup a bit during spring training. Not sure I've seen him use it in a critical situation in a real game yet.

Also, Bobby cuts his fastball at times, which sacrifices a little velocity. Koch's fastball was pretty straight, and when he lost velocity, it killed his career.

Another point to make, Bobby was pitching for the third consecutive game today for the first time this year.

Zisk77
04-11-2007, 07:30 PM
I got 2 thoughts on this:

1. He'll be fine he is still building arm strength. His velocity will be electric as the temperature increases.

2. If A.J. falls in love with calling the curveball, Bobby will lose velocity. Bobby has a great curve, but its devasting because of his fastball. He needs to throw more alto queso!

Luke
04-12-2007, 09:03 AM
True, but what happened to Billy Koch was no joke. Velocity does mean something...definitely not everything - but something.

Very true. If Billy had been able to throw strikes he might have been able to overcome the velocity issue. As it was, he couldn't hit the zone or throw hard.

As for Bobby, there's a million and one things that can rob a pitcher of velocity. If he can reliably throw in the low-mid 90s, and get his curve and slider over he'll be fine. I'd be happier if he was 97-98 and doing it, but as long as he's not giving away too many free passes, I'm fine.

PaulDrake
04-12-2007, 09:54 AM
True, but what happened to Billy Koch was no joke. Velocity does mean something...definitely not everything - but something. It depends on the pitcher. To a one trick pony like Koch, it meant everything.

PaulDrake
04-12-2007, 09:57 AM
At the park last week (well one game I went to), I don't think Bobby hit over 93, if that. IIRC this was the case last year as well though He was in the low to mid 90s, topping out at 97 when we saw him in August against KC.

soxfan13
04-12-2007, 10:25 AM
I feel that Bobby has more pitches than Koch. Koch just had his heater and a very average slider. Bobby's hammer is outstanding when it's on. His slider is more than adequate, and I know he fooled around with a changeup a bit during spring training. Not sure I've seen him use it in a critical situation in a real game yet.

Also, Bobby cuts his fastball at times, which sacrifices a little velocity. Koch's fastball was pretty straight, and when he lost velocity, it killed his career.

Another point to make, Bobby was pitching for the third consecutive game today for the first time this year.

Very true. Before he was called up in 2005 I thought I remember reading about Jenks, that his curve was his best pitch.

FedEx227
04-12-2007, 10:40 AM
It depends on the pitcher. To a one trick pony like Koch, it meant everything.

I wouldn't call Jenks much more than a one-trick pony. Yeah, he's got a nasty curve but he does not get it over enough to call it another primary pitch of his.

Harry Chappas
04-12-2007, 11:04 AM
The Trib said a scout clocked Jenks at 95 last night, so maybe the gun was off? Either way, he struck out two so he must have been bringing it a little.

MetroPD
04-12-2007, 11:19 AM
Harden was at 97-98 the whole night the other night. If its slow, he's throwing over 100. The USCF gun last weekend had Jenks at 93 after about 10 pitches. The first ten he hit 89-90. The same gun had Thornton at 95. He's definitely not throwing as hard as he used to, but then again he didn't throw as hard last year as he did in 2005, but that was blamed on his being woefully out of shape.
+1. As for not being in mid season forum......I think its all hog wash. Pitchers around the league are having ZERO problems reaching their velocity levels. Seems whenever it comes to Jenks, then he needs half a season to get going.

oeo
04-12-2007, 01:12 PM
I was watching a Tigers spring training game and he hit 107. For whatever reason, I don't think he can really throw 107.

The media loves this guy for a reason still unknown. Maybe it's because he can't throw to first base, I don't know. :dunno:

All I know is the guy is a douche.

davenicholson
04-12-2007, 01:16 PM
I agree with that. The gun readings looked awful low for everyone.
Can we somehow get these issued to the ISP patrolling I-80 between I-55 and Utica this Sunday?

thedudeabides
04-12-2007, 01:21 PM
+1. As for not being in mid season forum......I think its all hog wash. Pitchers around the league are having ZERO problems reaching their velocity levels. Seems whenever it comes to Jenks, then he needs half a season to get going.

There are plenty of pitchers around the league that are still building their velocity. Sabathia, Oswalt, and Schilling are three examples off the top of my head that I have watched pitch this year and the announcers have commented they will be throwing much harder later in the year. This is not a myth, some pitchers take a few weeks, or even a month, into the season before they reach their full velocity.

hawkjt
04-12-2007, 01:25 PM
The Trib said a scout clocked Jenks at 95 last night, so maybe the gun was off? Either way, he struck out two so he must have been bringing it a little.

That gun had to be 2-3 mph low, cus I watched his velocity yesterday and he never topped 92 yet the scouts had him at 95.

I did not see harden at 97 once the other nite but I could be wrong.

BanditJimmy
04-12-2007, 02:07 PM
The 3 pitchers that have me concerned when it comes to velocity is Jenks, Contreras, & Garland

True that you do not need to rely on velocity to get ML hitters out, but losing velocity takes away the margin for error some pitchers have.

-Contreras was 94-95 the first year he got here, now he is more like 91-92. He has no room for wildness at that velocity nor can he let pitches sit in the middle of the plate as he did opening day. 94-95 and with his forkball, he can live in the middle of home plate and not be touched (As we saw in the '05 play offs)

-Garland was 92-94 and now he is more like 88-91. 88-91 with the ball not sinking (if he can't get it to sink) you can write it up as a 3 inning outing.

-Jenks should be around 96-98 (occasionaly hit 100) but now he is more around 92-94. The way he is going, he has not prayer to hitting 100 any time this year. And IMO in order for his curveball to be very effective, he needs for that fast-ball to be in the mid to uper 90s in order to catch the hitters cheating on his velocity.

markopat
04-12-2007, 02:14 PM
It was the same thing last year. Most pitchers thru the league are still not up to there high velocity. Jenks will be fine!!

Maybe the league added more cork to the ball to make it a hitters game again since Sosa is back.............Maybe it is a little less heavy and floats a little more....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... :dunno:

soxfan13
04-12-2007, 02:16 PM
The 3 pitchers that have me concerned when it comes to velocity is Jenks, Contreras, & Garland

True that you do not need to rely on velocity to get ML hitters out, but losing velocity takes away the margin for error some pitchers have.

-Contreras was 94-95 the first year he got here, now he is more like 91-92. He has no room for wildness at that velocity nor can he let pitches sit in the middle of the plate as he did opening day. 94-95 and with his forkball, he can live in the middle of home plate and not be touched (As we saw in the '05 play offs)

-Garland was 92-94 and now he is more like 88-91. 88-91 with the ball not sinking (if he can't get it to sink) you can write it up as a 3 inning outing.

-Jenks should be around 96-98 (occasionaly hit 100) but now he is more around 92-94. The way he is going, he has not prayer to hitting 100 any time this year. And IMO in order for his curveball to be very effective, he needs for that fast-ball to be in the mid to uper 90s in order to catch the hitters cheating on his velocity.

If it was towards the end of May I would be worried. Like I have said and other posters have said, alot of these guys are still in the process of fully stretching their arms out. If the velocities arent up in the next 2-3 weeks then I would start worrying.

jabrch
04-12-2007, 02:16 PM
The 3 pitchers that have me concerned when it comes to velocity is Jenks, Contreras, & Garland

True that you do not need to rely on velocity to get ML hitters out, but losing velocity takes away the margin for error some pitchers have.

-Contreras was 94-95 the first year he got here, now he is more like 91-92. He has no room for wildness at that velocity nor can he let pitches sit in the middle of the plate as he did opening day. 94-95 and with his forkball, he can live in the middle of home plate and not be touched (As we saw in the '05 play offs)

-Garland was 92-94 and now he is more like 88-91. 88-91 with the ball not sinking (if he can't get it to sink) you can write it up as a 3 inning outing.

-Jenks should be around 96-98 (occasionaly hit 100) but now he is more around 92-94. The way he is going, he has not prayer to hitting 100 any time this year. And IMO in order for his curveball to be very effective, he needs for that fast-ball to be in the mid to uper 90s in order to catch the hitters cheating on his velocity.

Did you see each of their last outings?

oeo
04-12-2007, 02:18 PM
The 3 pitchers that have me concerned when it comes to velocity is Jenks, Contreras, & Garland

True that you do not need to rely on velocity to get ML hitters out, but losing velocity takes away the margin for error some pitchers have.

-Contreras was 94-95 the first year he got here, now he is more like 91-92. He has no room for wildness at that velocity nor can he let pitches sit in the middle of the plate as he did opening day. 94-95 and with his forkball, he can live in the middle of home plate and not be touched (As we saw in the '05 play offs)

-Garland was 92-94 and now he is more like 88-91. 88-91 with the ball not sinking (if he can't get it to sink) you can write it up as a 3 inning outing.

-Jenks should be around 96-98 (occasionaly hit 100) but now he is more around 92-94. The way he is going, he has not prayer to hitting 100 any time this year. And IMO in order for his curveball to be very effective, he needs for that fast-ball to be in the mid to uper 90s in order to catch the hitters cheating on his velocity.

You're basing this off of a gun that was slow in Oakland. Someone just said that a scout had Jenks at 95. On Tuesday, it said Embree was throwing 92...but he was blowing it by our guys. I highly doubt a 92MPH fastball is going to get blown by major league hitters.

Radar guns are not consistent, so you shouldn't be basing potential problems off of them.

soxfan13
04-12-2007, 02:18 PM
Maybe the league added more cork to the ball to make it a hitters game again since Sosa is back.............Maybe it is a little less heavy and floats a little more....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... :dunno:


:kneeslap: I dont know what I am giggling at more. Your comment or that I noticed I used the wrong their.:redface:

BanditJimmy
04-12-2007, 02:24 PM
Did you see each of their last outings?

yes, and those were the readings I saw.

The readings in Oakland were consistent to those at US Cellular field.

If the gun was that off in Oakland, how was Buehrle hitting 87+ on it yesterday?

Iwritecode
04-12-2007, 02:50 PM
yes, and those were the readings I saw.

The readings in Oakland were consistent to those at US Cellular field.

If the gun was that off in Oakland, how was Buehrle hitting 87+ on it yesterday?

Isn't that a little low even for him? I thought he was consistently around 89-90.

jabrch
04-12-2007, 02:54 PM
yes, and those were the readings I saw.

The readings in Oakland were consistent to those at US Cellular field.

And what was the problem with their performances exactly?

Radar guns are ridiculously stupid. I don't care if the gun says 3 MPH if we get outings like Gar, Contreras and Jenks last outings.

BanditJimmy
04-12-2007, 03:02 PM
And what was the problem with their performances exactly?

Radar guns are ridiculously stupid. I don't care if the gun says 3 MPH if we get outings like Gar, Contreras and Jenks last outings.

No one will complain when you are getting outs.

But let's see what happens when a power-house ML offense (the A's are far from being one right now) steps up to the plate.


Like I said earlier, by losing velocity you lose some margin for error.

Lip Man 1
04-13-2007, 09:45 PM
Story on Jenks now on White Sox.com. Here's Bobby talking about things:


"When my arm is at 100 percent strength-wise, it's going to make it easier as far as making mistakes over the middle of the plate," Jenks explained. "You'll get that foul ball more often. That's where the real importance of the velocity is.
"If I go out there and make my pitches, it doesn't matter how hard you throw. Even [Tuesday], I was more concerned about where my location was. That's the biggest thing. It's been preached in your head since Day 1 of pro baseball. If you can't throw it over the plate, it doesn't matter how hard you throw."

Lip

MetroPD
04-13-2007, 10:23 PM
Story on Jenks now on White Sox.com. Here's Bobby talking about things:


"When my arm is at 100 percent strength-wise, it's going to make it easier as far as making mistakes over the middle of the plate," Jenks explained. "You'll get that foul ball more often. That's where the real importance of the velocity is.
"If I go out there and make my pitches, it doesn't matter how hard you throw. Even [Tuesday], I was more concerned about where my location was. That's the biggest thing. It's been preached in your head since Day 1 of pro baseball. If you can't throw it over the plate, it doesn't matter how hard you throw."

Lip

Well he's throwing it over the plate, but he's getting hit quite regularly. He closed the game against the Tribe, but again he made it closer than it needed to be.

MRM
04-13-2007, 10:37 PM
You know what would be nice.

Yes. It would be nice if fans knew that velocity means very LITTLE. Bobby doesn't get saves because he throws 101. He gets saves because he knows how to pitch. His curve ball is FAR more impressive than his fastball to those who know anything about pitching. You could throw 103 but if it's a straight fastball most major league hitters will tear it up. Get over the speed, already.

MRM
04-13-2007, 10:41 PM
Well he's throwing it over the plate, but he's getting hit quite regularly. He closed the game against the Tribe, but again he made it closer than it needed to be.

God forbid the guy be less than perfect against probably the best hitting team in the Majors....

MRM
04-13-2007, 10:45 PM
Well he's throwing it over the plate, but he's getting hit quite regularly. He closed the game against the Tribe, but again he made it closer than it needed to be.

How close did it "need to be"? The Injuns are a pretty good hitting team, ya know.

Hitmen77
04-13-2007, 11:17 PM
Well he's throwing it over the plate, but he's getting hit quite regularly. He closed the game against the Tribe, but again he made it closer than it needed to be.

To be fair, Jenks did have to overcome 2 botched double plays.

WhiteSox5187
04-13-2007, 11:44 PM
Yes. It would be nice if fans knew that velocity means very LITTLE. Bobby doesn't get saves because he throws 101. He gets saves because he knows how to pitch. His curve ball is FAR more impressive than his fastball to those who know anything about pitching. You could throw 103 but if it's a straight fastball most major league hitters will tear it up. Get over the speed, already.
Getting it over the plate helps, but a hundred mile per hour fastball really compliments that knee buckling curve. Without that velocity he is VERY hittable and his fastball doesn't have a whole lot of movement (at least his four seamer, I believe he has a two seamer or a cutter that has a bit of movement) but he can blow it by guys. I'm sure he'll get his velocity back, but if he is still throwing 91-94 mph by June we'll be in trouble.

BanditJimmy
04-13-2007, 11:49 PM
Getting it over the plate helps, but a hundred mile per hour fastball really compliments that knee buckling curve. Without that velocity he is VERY hittable and his fastball doesn't have a whole lot of movement (at least his four seamer, I believe he has a two seamer or a cutter that has a bit of movement) but he can blow it by guys. I'm sure he'll get his velocity back, but if he is still throwing 91-94 mph by June we'll be in trouble.


Agree with that 100%.

By throwing 98-99 you can get away with a fastball right over the heart of the plate, 91-93 will get killed.

Like I mentioned earlier, velocity loss = losing your margin for error.

In addition, Bobby's 12 to 6 hammer is so effective becuase of the intimidation hitters get when facing 100 mph gas.

Another thing to note is that on a given night when Bobby can't get that curve over strikes, 91-93 is not going to close too many games in this league.


Look no further than Billy Koch.

VA_GoGoSox
04-13-2007, 11:59 PM
Yes. It would be nice if fans knew that velocity means very LITTLE. Bobby doesn't get saves because he throws 101. He gets saves because he knows how to pitch. His curve ball is FAR more impressive than his fastball to those who know anything about pitching. You could throw 103 but if it's a straight fastball most major league hitters will tear it up. Get over the speed, already.

Velocity means a lot. Ask Billy Koch.

Bobby's curve ball is amazing, but when paired with a 90 MPH fastball, it becomes less effective. By the way, if you know of someone that can throw 103 MPH consistently, please give Kenny a call. I'm sure he'd love to give MLB hitters a chance to "tear it up."

FedEx227
04-14-2007, 12:01 AM
Yes. It would be nice if fans knew that velocity means very LITTLE. Bobby doesn't get saves because he throws 101. He gets saves because he knows how to pitch. His curve ball is FAR more impressive than his fastball to those who know anything about pitching. You could throw 103 but if it's a straight fastball most major league hitters will tear it up. Get over the speed, already.

Like other posters have said, velocity means a lot when you don't have an array of pitches you can throw for strikes.

First off, since you know so much about pitching you would understand that his curve-ball although very good, does not get over the plate all that consistently. Thus, Bobby needs to have a good fastball to complement that, and to take hitters off their rhythm. If he goes 2-0 on a curveball, players will be sitting dead-read waiting for a 92 straight fastball.

With that being said, Bobby does not have many other pitches, thus he needs to rely on the change of pace between the two. The fact that so many people get baffled on his curve is not the movement, but rather the change of pace from a 98-mid 80s, that's an incredible change, in-fact its the reason Johan Santana's changeup is the best in the bigs (speed/movement).

And as other people have said, there is a higher margin for error when you have a plus fastball as opposed to a 91-92. With a 100 you can miss your spot and still get some swings and misses, at 91 that starts to change, you have to be perfect with every fastball which is a tough thing to ask anybody to do.

Velocity has a lot to do with success, if you look at the trends in the majors it always seems to shy away from velocity and plus-speed guys then go right back to it only years later. For a while people thought Maddux, Moyer and Glavine could be duplicated in young pitchers but it wasn't the case. These guys can get by without high velocity fastball because they can throw TONS of breaking balls. Maddux has 10-12 pitches in his array with different finger grips for all. Also, all three have amazing control.

I'm sorry, Jenks without velocity is a decent pitcher with an inconsistent curveball and a straight fastball... he's Brandon McCarthy. We had this same debate when we got Danks, while he doesn't throw as hard as McCarthy he has movement on it and thus can get by. Jenks has no movement on his fastball, he throws a straight 4-seamer.

I'm not going to write him off just yet because as people have said he's been building up arm-strength and I do remember the same thing happening last year, but you have to be a bit concerned if this keeps going into May. Yes, he did great today but he also had a 3-run lead, there is room for error.

We had a 1-0 game a few days ago, there was no room for error and he made it, with two straight fastballs clocking in at 91 right down the heart of the plate. What's even more telling is Oakland is a team that bases itself on taking the first pitch... even they were swinging first pitch at him.

MetroPD
04-14-2007, 06:06 AM
God forbid the guy be less than perfect against probably the best hitting team in the Majors....

And against Oakland?

FarWestChicago
04-14-2007, 07:00 AM
I heard there is a sale on underwear at Target this weekend.

champagne030
04-14-2007, 07:08 AM
I heard there is a sale on underwear at Target this weekend.

Does that sale include a fastball?

UserNameBlank
04-14-2007, 07:41 AM
Velocity means a lot. Ask Billy Koch.

Bobby's curve ball is amazing, but when paired with a 90 MPH fastball, it becomes less effective. By the way, if you know of someone that can throw 103 MPH consistently, please give Kenny a call. I'm sure he'd love to give MLB hitters a chance to "tear it up."
Koch is a bad example. His problem with velocity usually only became apparent after his control troubles. In at typical Billy Koch ninth, he would give up a single, walk the next two hitters, then get hammered with a weak fastball over the heart of the plate and lose the game.

For all the people so concerned with velocity, look no further than Mike Myers. 13 years in the big leagues, never started one game, 492.1 IP with a 4.19 ERA. Granted, he is a lefty with an awkward delivery, but so are a lot of guys who get killed and never make it.

Look at Shingo in 2004 and his numbers in Japan. Location is everything.

The main thing I worry about with Bobby right now isn't his velocity, because I think as in the past it will come around. What gets me is that during ST, I remember him throwing a nasty changeup a couple of times and I haven't seen that since the season began. Without his hard fastball right now, and with the risk of throwing the curve with runners on base in a closing situation, you'd think that now would be the time to really make that part of his repetoire. I think if he can add that change in with his fastball, curve, slider, and cutter, he would be nasty even at 90mph.

dickallen15
04-14-2007, 07:53 AM
Koch is a bad example. His problem with velocity usually only became apparent after his control troubles. In at typical Billy Koch ninth, he would give up a single, walk the next two hitters, then get hammered with a weak fastball over the heart of the plate and lose the game.

For all the people so concerned with velocity, look no further than Mike Myers. 13 years in the big leagues, never started one game, 492.1 IP with a 4.19 ERA. Granted, he is a lefty with an awkward delivery, but so are a lot of guys who get killed and never make it.

Look at Shingo in 2004 and his numbers in Japan. Location is everything.

The main thing I worry about with Bobby right now isn't his velocity, because I think as in the past it will come around. What gets me is that during ST, I remember him throwing a nasty changeup a couple of times and I haven't seen that since the season began. Without his hard fastball right now, and with the risk of throwing the curve with runners on base in a closing situation, you'd think that now would be the time to really make that part of his repetoire. I think if he can add that change in with his fastball, curve, slider, and cutter, he would be nasty even at 90mph.

Ozzie is concerned about his drop in velocity.

UserNameBlank
04-14-2007, 08:06 AM
Ozzie is concerned about his drop in velocity.
He should be concerned about every one of his players. But I don't think Ozzie is as concerned as people would like to think. If he is, Aardsma will be the closer by the end of the week. But I doubt that happens.

FarWestChicago
04-14-2007, 08:12 AM
Ozzie is concerned about his drop in velocity.

He should be concerned about every one of his players. But I don't think Ozzie is as concerned as people would like to think. If he is, Aardsma will be the closer by the end of the week. But I doubt that happens.You're right. If Ozzie is worried, he'll make a change.

jabrch
04-14-2007, 08:25 AM
He should be concerned about every one of his players.

Exactly!

SoxxoS
04-14-2007, 09:16 AM
Look at Shingo in 2004 and his numbers in Japan. Location is everything.


No, there is a reason why Shingo hasn't caught on with another team - its because baseball figured him and the "frisbee" out...

If location is "everything" then can someone tell me where I can try out? I walked like 15 people in a year of high school baseball. My location was great - my stuff wasn't.

Velocity definiely means something to a guy like Jenks, no doubt about it. Its not just a coinsidence that he is getting hit around, all while losing his great fastball from 2005. Not to mention the hitters have a great confidence going to the plate against him, I am assuming...and its a downward spiral from there.

FarWestChicago
04-14-2007, 09:49 AM
Velocity definiely means something to a guy like Jenks, no doubt about it. Its not just a coinsidence that he is getting hit around, all while losing his great fastball from 2005. Not to mention the hitters have a great confidence going to the plate against him, I am assuming...and its a downward spiral from there.Well, if his career is over, as you say, I hope Ozzie makes a move. And I'd also like to thank Bobby for 2005. :smile:

SoxxoS
04-14-2007, 09:52 AM
Well, if his career is over, as you say, I hope Ozzie makes a move. And I'd also like to thank Bobby for 2005. :smile:

I definitely think Bobby can suceed without it - but its going to take some adjustments and a different approach. Usually adjustments mean "little confidence" and in turn lead to runs - so maybe he needs to get demoted until a)he gets his velocity back b)learns how to pitch without it.

Cant give too many games away in the bottom of the 9th in this division.

spiffie
04-14-2007, 09:55 AM
I think Bobby's performance has officially reached the point of concern because Ranger Rongey actually commented on the idea that if Bobby doesn't get his performance and velocity improved that at some point they will have to replace him. Usually the response is something along the lines of "Just relax, Bobby will be fine."

That said, I really suspect that by May this will all be a slightly annoying memory. And if it isn't, we have a few arms who can close. But I think Bobby has earned the benefit of the doubt at least.

chopperjc
04-14-2007, 10:27 AM
You guys have him bartending already.

A little patience please.

INSox56
04-14-2007, 10:29 AM
No, there is a reason why Shingo hasn't caught on with another team - its because baseball figured him and the "frisbee" out...

If location is "everything" then can someone tell me where I can try out? I walked like 15 people in a year of high school baseball. My location was great - my stuff wasn't.

Velocity definiely means something to a guy like Jenks, no doubt about it. Its not just a coinsidence that he is getting hit around, all while losing his great fastball from 2005. Not to mention the hitters have a great confidence going to the plate against him, I am assuming...and its a downward spiral from there.
Really disagree with your assessment of Shingo. He never got figured out. He couldn't throw ANYTHING for strikes but a straight, 82 (or whatever it was) mph fastball. When you can't get any of your pitches, including your frisbee, over the plate, they just sit on a straight, slow as hell, bp fastball on 3-1, 2-0 counts. This is exactly what happened to him, not them figuring him out.

Chipol
04-14-2007, 10:35 AM
It looks to me like Bobby is having trouble getting his left leg up in his delivery. Maybe it's always been that way--one of these days I'll pull out the 2005 DVDs and see for myself.

But, having said that, I think he can survive without the 100mph heat. He is becoming more of a pitcher. Last night I watched the Cleveland feed on DirectV and the announcers were commenting on how he has dramatically increased inducing the ground ball.

UserNameBlank
04-14-2007, 10:58 AM
Really disagree with your assessment of Shingo. He never got figured out. He couldn't throw ANYTHING for strikes but a straight, 82 (or whatever it was) mph fastball. When you can't get any of your pitches, including your frisbee, over the plate, they just sit on a straight, slow as hell, bp fastball on 3-1, 2-0 counts. This is exactly what happened to him, not them figuring him out.
Totally agree.

oeo
04-14-2007, 11:02 AM
Velocity definiely means something to a guy like Jenks, no doubt about it. Its not just a coinsidence that he is getting hit around, all while losing his great fastball from 2005. Not to mention the hitters have a great confidence going to the plate against him, I am assuming...and its a downward spiral from there.

This would be true if that was Bobby's best pitch, but it's not. He can survive without his fastball if he's locating; if he's not, then it could be trouble because without his best stuff he needs his fastball. He'll be fine; and if he's not, Kenny has assembled a bullpen with multiple guys that can close.

delben91
04-14-2007, 11:22 AM
You guys have him bartending already.

A little patience please.

Seriously. Crede isn't hitting, let's demote him too, I think he has an option left, that way and Bobby can get their **** together.

:rolleyes:

WhiteSox5187
04-14-2007, 11:44 AM
I don't understand why people are saying Bobby's career is over, i think it's far from over. All this is is a little concerning, it's not apocalyptic. Now, if he is still pitching like this in June, we'll be in trouble. But I think what we're seeing here is a result of the cold (harder to get loose) and the fact that he has pitched in four straight games. The first game in Oakland I recall he was hitting around 96, and now he's topping out at 93. I think that is from pitching in four straight games. Let's score a bunch of runs today and give Bobby some time off, then we'll see that velocity back to where it should be.

jabrch
04-14-2007, 11:52 AM
I don't understand why people are saying Bobby's career is over

Because people panic here over every freaking little thing that goes on. It's assinine.

ilsox7
04-14-2007, 11:56 AM
Because people panic here over every freaking little thing that goes on. It's assinine.

:thumbsup:

TomBradley72
04-14-2007, 11:59 AM
I'm willing to give him a few more weeks....he always talks about how it takes a while for his velocity to build up...so I'm not panicing yet.

In the mean time...I don't mind seeing MacDougal or Thornton or Aardsma closing on occasion while he's working through this.

champagne030
04-14-2007, 12:11 PM
I don't understand why people are saying Bobby's career is over

Yes, that's way premature. It's really no different than a lot of people here who suggest that anything less than, the glass is 99.9% full, the Sox are the best team ever, is a pants pisser, hater, ect.

The, Stick your head in the sand and Pollyanna's come out in force sometimes.

spiffie
04-14-2007, 12:55 PM
Because people panic here over every freaking little thing that goes on. It's assinine.
I think that while some people are going to bitch no matter what, for others Bobby's rather inauspicious second half of last season is a cause for worry as well. This is a guy who in the second half of last year had an era of 5.71, and closed out the year with an era in September of just under ten. It seems like Bobby hasn't really been Bobby (with the exception of last August) in quite a while now.

FedEx227
04-14-2007, 06:25 PM
I think that while some people are going to bitch no matter what, for others Bobby's rather inauspicious second half of last season is a cause for worry as well. This is a guy who in the second half of last year had an era of 5.71, and closed out the year with an era in September of just under ten. It seems like Bobby hasn't really been Bobby (with the exception of last August) in quite a while now.

Exactly. We aren't basing our concerns over two games at the beginning of the 2007 season, that would be a joke. Instead it seems to be a trend from last year carrying over into this year. If this was any other type of pitcher I wouldn't be concerned, but closers once they lose confidence are absolutely worthless, there are countless examples of this.

ode to veeck
04-14-2007, 06:34 PM
I heard there is a sale on underwear at Target this weekend.

LMAO! The first sensible post in this thread. I don't believe the reported velocity numbers I heard from Oakland after seeing him in person last Tue and Wed. Good to see him nail the Ks with heat the next day against Ellis and Chavez.

PaulDrake
04-14-2007, 07:09 PM
Jenks may never again throw 98-102. It doesn't necessarily mean he'll have a short career. I don't agree that he's a one pitch wonder. He's shown me at least, more and more versatility in his offerings. Like I said before, I saw him do 93-97 last year, and some guns have him approaching that this year. For a variety of reasons, not the least of which is I really pull for the guy, I'm not ready to throw him under the bus. I lift weights, but I don't think I could do that one if I tried anyway.