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Viva Magglio
03-20-2002, 10:32 PM
...that does not mean we simply dismiss our MLB-worst team ERA as no big deal. We cannot blame the high ERA on the fact that we're in the Cactus League either. I realize that the ERA of Cactus League teams is higher then that of Grapefruit League teams, but our team ERA is by far the worst in the major leagues.

Don't give me apples and oranges comparisions like "The Bears' 1985 preseason record was 1-3, but they went on to win the Super Bowl." If you think it's automatic that these pitching problems will simply go away come April 1, you are kidding yourselves. Todd Ritchie and Danny Wright are not going to transform into Sandy Koufax and Roger Clemens when we arrive in Seattle. I am not necessarily saying that they will continue, either. Nevertheless, our pitching staff must show dramatic signs of improvement next week if we are to be considered a contender.

In other words, we cannot ignore this pitching problem and pretend it's not happening.

voodoochile
03-21-2002, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
...that does not mean we simply dismiss our MLB-worst team ERA as no big deal. We cannot blame the high ERA on the fact that we're in the Cactus League either. I realize that the ERA of Cactus League teams is higher then that of Grapefruit League teams, but our team ERA is by far the worst in the major leagues.

Don't give me apples and oranges comparisions like "The Bears' 1985 preseason record was 1-3, but they went on to win the Super Bowl." If you think it's automatic that these pitching problems will simply go away come April 1, you are kidding yourselves. Todd Ritchie and Danny Wright are not going to transform into Sandy Koufax and Roger Clemens when we arrive in Seattle. I am not necessarily saying that they will continue, either. Nevertheless, our pitching staff must show dramatic signs of improvement next week if we are to be considered a contender.

In other words, we cannot ignore this pitching problem and pretend it's not happening.

I agree, but it is where we are at the moment also. Like you said, we are not suddenly going to have Sandy Koufax and Roger Clemans pitching for us in two weeks. Hopefully when the season starts, some adrenalin will kick in and the team will play better. JM did say that around this time in ST they were going to stop experimenting so much and start trying to instill a 'win this game' mentality. If this persists until the end, we have a problem. Though I also agree that I wouldn't mind seeing a trade for another pitcher.

Bmr31
03-21-2002, 12:32 AM
Man some of us, including myself, kermie and others, tried to let some of you guys know how AWFUL, Ritchie is, and hes our #2 SP? That spells big trouble. Lets hope some of the young SPs step up.........

voodoochile
03-21-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Man some of us, including myself, kermie and others, tried to let some of you guys know how AWFUL, Ritchie is, and hes our #2 SP? That spells big trouble. Lets hope some of the young SPs step up.........

Well, I hope you're wrong about Ritchie, but I think some of the other guys are going to surprise us. If 2 out of 3 or Garland/Wright/Rauch win 13-15 games, we should be okay. Ritchie may win a lot of games just from run support anyway, so who knows...

RedPinStripes
03-21-2002, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Well, I hope you're wrong about Ritchie, but I think some of the other guys are going to surprise us. If 2 out of 3 or Garland/Wright/Rauch win 13-15 games, we should be okay. Ritchie may win a lot of games just from run support anyway, so who knows...

Don't worry. Bmr is wrong. Ritchie will do fine with the sox. Might not post a sub-3.00 era, but I'll bet he can win 15 games.

voodoochile
03-21-2002, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Don't worry. Bmr is wrong. Ritchie will do fine with the sox. Might not post a sub-3.00 era, but I'll bet he can win 15 games.

I would take that. More would be nice, but 15 is a start.

baggio202
03-21-2002, 01:29 AM
usually in those scenarios where a team pitches like crap in ST then turns it on when the league starts...its either a veteran staff where guys were getting their work in..or a staff like ours that stared out horribly but after the roles were defined they pitched real well the last 10-14 days and had something to build on..

if there was a way to go back check this out..i doubt if there was ever staff as young as ours that pitched poorly all spring then turned it on...the next 10 days will tell...if every has good outing and we hold t eams to 5 runs or less...then were ok...if we keep on keepin' on... i dont see how the young guys could have any confidence heading to seattle...

i think our whole season could hinge on the next 10 days..theat might be a little dramatic but i think its very important all the guys going north have some good outings from here on out

RichH55
03-21-2002, 03:35 AM
Basing a year/career on Spring Training numbers is like watching the trailer for a movie and decieding how good it is then and there.......lets at least get to the home stand before we Jim Jones it

bjmarte
03-21-2002, 09:03 AM
It's not like we don't have the potential for a decent pitching staff, they just aren't living up to that potential right now. If enough of them turn things around it is not too late.

That is why I say :firenardi

I'm gonna keep beating that drum.

Soxboyrob
03-21-2002, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!


Don't give me apples and oranges comparisions like "The Bears' 1985 preseason record was 1-3, but they went on to win the Super Bowl." If you think it's automatic that these pitching problems will simply go away come April 1, you are kidding yourselves. Todd Ritchie and Danny Wright are not going to transform into Sandy Koufax and Roger Clemens when we arrive in Seattle.....In other words, we cannot ignore this pitching problem and pretend it's not happening.

OK, that's fine, but if we have to assume that the pitching isn't going to be better w/ the start of the season, is it also fair to assume that Konerko will hit .500 this year? Crede .450? Clayton .350? That's what they're doing right now.

harwar
03-21-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Man some of us, including myself, kermie and others, tried to let some of you guys know how AWFUL, Ritchie is, and hes our #2 SP? That spells big trouble. Lets hope some of the young SPs step up.........

I threw a fit when i heard about that trade and most guys said i was over-reacting.I said trading Sean Lowe was a big mistake.And look what we have now.J.M. has no idea about what to do about middle relief.Also Lowe could have been a solid 4th or 5th starter.Rithchie will give us the innings as they said he would,but whether those innings will be mostly good,mostly bad or just all mediocre remains to be seen.

Iwritecode
03-21-2002, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
OK, that's fine, but if we have to assume that the pitching isn't going to be better w/ the start of the season, is it also fair to assume that Konerko will hit .500 this year? Crede .450? Clayton .350? That's what they're doing right now.

That's what the hitters on other teams are doing too. And people wonder why our team ERA is so high?

RedPinStripes
03-21-2002, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


OK, that's fine, but if we have to assume that the pitching isn't going to be better w/ the start of the season, is it also fair to assume that Konerko will hit .500 this year? Crede .450? Clayton .350? That's what they're doing right now.

Good point dude!

longshot7
03-21-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Basing a year/career on Spring Training numbers is like watching the trailer for a movie and decieding how good it is then and there.......lets at least get to the home stand before we Jim Jones it

Because the Swordfish trailer did the film absolutely no justice.

Seriously though, I'm often accused of being a naysayer, but you know what? There's good reason here. We stink. Oh well, what else is new. 85 years and counting...

OutInLeftField
03-21-2002, 12:38 PM
The current pitching situation makes me wonder where we would be with any combo of former Sox pitchers (JB, Sirotka, Lowe, Wells, Myette, Sturtze, Bradford etc.) We don't have 3 quality starters and our bullpen has gone from one of the strongest to one of the sketchiest. Williams has not learned a thing about pitching since he couldn't hit it as a player.

Soxboyrob
03-21-2002, 12:47 PM
Does anyone suppose that different sorts of priorities are placed on the clubs strengths and weaknesses by the Sox GMs, based on the fact that Schu was a pitcher back in the day, while KW was a position player? Just seems to me that Schu placed a lot more importance on the pitching staff being in place than KW has. JMO.

Jerry_Manuel
03-21-2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
In other words, we cannot ignore this pitching problem and pretend it's not happening.

Nobody has said to ignore it like it's not happening. There's just no reason to get all upset over it. The Sox are not going to be in the World Series this year, so no use getting all miffed and angry over the pitching being brutal. Unless the Central Divison is a must have to you.

FarWestChicago
03-21-2002, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Nobody has said to ignore it like it's not happening. There's just no reason to get all upset over it. The Sox are not going to be in the World Series this year, so no use getting all miffed and angry over the pitching being brutal. Unless the Central Divison is a must have to you. And Jerry remains King of Bummer Hill!! :smile:

All the rest of you guys can come in here and blow as many guts, rage as much or cry as much as you want. But, you aren't touching Ol' Jer. Long live the King! :smile:

GASHWOUND
03-21-2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Nobody has said to ignore it like it's not happening. There's just no reason to get all upset over it. The Sox are not going to be in the World Series this year, so no use getting all miffed and angry over the pitching being brutal. Unless the Central Divison is a must have to you.

Jer has it right, he has such low expecations on not just the pitching, but the team that anything the Sox do will be a plus. I need to have that, ut I just can't. You can put it on the board that the Sox will not be goin to any worldseries this year, but with what I'm seeing with this crappy pitching we won't even sniff 2nd place in our division.
I just want to go to the playoffs so we may have a freakin chance to advance, you know a ball may bounce our way a few times...who knows.But at least a Cental Division Championship is something, and its better than going home empty handed and not going to the playoffs. It also may give our players playoff experience and we can possibly build off something with a playoff team.
But this is just horrible, our pitching I mean.

Jerry_Manuel
03-21-2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
And Jerry remains King of Bummer Hill!! :smile:

All the rest of you guys can come in here and blow as many guts, rage as much or cry as much as you want. But, you aren't touching Ol' Jer. Long live the King! :smile:

Your to kind, West.

I don't like seeing the pitching staff get hammered either. I just don't see the point in getting all upset over it. If we were on the verge of winning the Series, then I'd be upset just like everyone else is. The fact of the matter is, is that this team isn't going to the World Series, so I'm not going to get upset.

Jerry_Manuel
03-21-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND
But with what I'm seeing with this crappy pitching we won't even sniff 2nd place in our division.
I just want to go to the playoffs so we may have a freakin chance to advance, you know a ball may bounce our way a few times...who knows.But at least a Cental Division Championship is something, and its better than going home empty handed and not going to the playoffs. It also may give our players playoff experience and we can possibly build off something with a playoff team.
But this is just horrible, our pitching I mean.

They'll do better then the Jndjans that's for sure.

The Sox would need someone to toss another baseball on the field during a play to get the ball to bounce their way. :smile:

I'd rather go home empty handed then say that we got to the playoffs, but once again we collapased. :o:

voodoochile
03-21-2002, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


They'll do better then the Jndjans that's for sure.

The Sox would need someone to toss another baseball on the field during a play to get the ball to bounce their way. :smile:

I'd rather go home empty handed then say that we got to the playoffs, but once again we collapased. :o:

No no no... history shows one thing to be true. Teams rarely win the WS in their first time to the playoffs. It is important for this team to make the playoffs in any way shape or form. This would be our second run with a lot of these guys and the more cracks you get, the more likely you are to break through and win it all. Then next year you could make a serious run by doing as little as signing a Cal Eldred clone and resigning Durham (Borchard and Crede come up and Valentin moves back to SS). Heck maybe some of those guys contribute THIS year and things really take off, but that is just a dream until the Sox actually start the season.

Watch the next week closely. Manuel said that he was going to start emphasizing winning as the primary goal in the games following the off day - that's today. So, if the team continues to stink it up the next 9 days, there may be a bigger problem.

In either case, it is still ST. Heck it snowed today in Chicago and it is about 20 degrees out... Nice second day of spring, No?

ma-gaga
03-22-2002, 01:14 AM
No no no... history shows one thing to be true. Teams rarely win the WS in their first time to the playoffs.

It's truly hard to win a world series. 29 teams fail at this every year. Some teams haven't won the WS despite having a dominant regular season team. Seattle, Cleveland, Oakland, Houston, and Boston, despite multiple attempts in the last few years. Atlanta has had miserable luck despite being one of the best teams over the last 10 years. 1 WS title is pretty pathetic considering how dominating they were.

Arizona won in their first attempt.
the Marlins won in their first attempt.
The Yankees won in their first attempt in 10+ years. Since then, they've dominated and it's hard to blame anyone else for NOT knocking them off.

Whatever, they need to get to the playoffs first.

Jerry_Manuel
03-22-2002, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
This would be our second run with a lot of these guys and the more cracks you get, the more likely you are to break through and win it all. Then next year you could make a serious run by doing as little as signing a Cal Eldred clone and resigning Durham (Borchard and Crede come up and Valentin moves back to SS). Heck maybe some of those guys contribute THIS year and things really take off, but that is just a dream until the Sox actually start the season.

So, if the team continues to stink it up the next 9 days, there may be a bigger problem.


Voodoo, your way to optimistic for me. :smile:

Once again, there is no problem.

Iwritecode
03-22-2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No no no... history shows one thing to be true. Teams rarely win the WS in their first time to the playoffs. It is important for this team to make the playoffs in any way shape or form. This would be our second run with a lot of these guys and the more cracks you get, the more likely you are to break through and win it all. Then next year you could make a serious run by doing as little as signing a Cal Eldred clone and resigning Durham (Borchard and Crede come up and Valentin moves back to SS). Heck maybe some of those guys contribute THIS year and things really take off, but that is just a dream until the Sox actually start the season.

Watch the next week closely. Manuel said that he was going to start emphasizing winning as the primary goal in the games following the off day - that's today. So, if the team continues to stink it up the next 9 days, there may be a bigger problem.

In either case, it is still ST. Heck it snowed today in Chicago and it is about 20 degrees out... Nice second day of spring, No?

VD has a point but leaves one thing out, if this team can make the playoffs this year and continue to do so the next few years, then maybe our attendance will start to improve a little. After all, who wouldn't want to see a team that won the division for 2-3 years in a row. Then maybe JR would quit complaining about the payroll and use the money to fill whatever needs the team may have and be able to make a WS appearance in the near future...

Mathew
03-22-2002, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga


It's truly hard to win a world series. 29 teams fail at this every year. Some teams haven't won the WS despite having a dominant regular season team. Seattle, Cleveland, Oakland, Houston, and Boston, despite multiple attempts in the last few years. Atlanta has had miserable luck despite being one of the best teams over the last 10 years. 1 WS title is pretty pathetic considering how dominating they were.

Arizona won in their first attempt.
the Marlins won in their first attempt.
The Yankees won in their first attempt in 10+ years. Since then, they've dominated and it's hard to blame anyone else for NOT knocking them off.

Whatever, they need to get to the playoffs first.

While we're on this track, the A's were one amaising and inexplicable play by Jeter(whom I hate) from an appearence and perhaps different out come to the whole thing.