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View Full Version : garcia trade a bust?


jiffy247
03-30-2007, 12:17 PM
personally, i think for the right now, it is, but hopefully gio gonzalez can step it up in a couple years to make this worth it. gavin floyd not to make the big team is very dissappointing!

soxfan13
03-30-2007, 12:20 PM
why dont you wait a season or 4 to make this judgement:rolleyes:

AuroraSoxFan
03-30-2007, 12:22 PM
Far to early to call it a bust.....or the opposite.......or anything else. Have to give the people obtained in the trade a shot.

chisox77
03-30-2007, 12:23 PM
We always want answers to these kinds of things in a hurry, but even now, with Floyd being a disappointment, a trade needs time. Gio Gonzales will probably decide the value of this trade in the long run.

seventyseven
03-30-2007, 12:24 PM
personally, i think for the right now, it is, but hopefully gio gonzalez can step it up in a couple years to make this worth it. gavin floyd not to make the big team is very dissappointing!

well, i'm glad none of us are rushing to judgment.

soxinem1
03-30-2007, 12:25 PM
Has a pitch even been thrown yet this year? Why not try asking this question in 2010?

jiffy247
03-30-2007, 12:27 PM
actually, if you think about it, " as of right now" i could not be because of this


1. it sent one of our starters away to make room for Mcarthy.
2. KW trades mcarthy to the rangers for masset( bullpen) danks( 5th starter) and rasner( future prospect)


i was just curious what you guys thought bout it

chisox77
03-30-2007, 12:31 PM
Jiffy, it's always good to put a question out there. It gets people thinking and posting.

By the way, welcome to WSI!

:D:

The Dude
03-30-2007, 12:34 PM
personally, i think for the right now, it is, but hopefully gio gonzalez can step it up in a couple years to make this worth it. gavin floyd not to make the big team is very dissappointing!

Don't forget, Garcia is having trouble with his velocity....again and he was pulled because of injury the other day.

Iwritecode
03-30-2007, 12:34 PM
Of course it's a bust. Gonzalez and Floyd haven't won a single game yet and Garcia has yet to lose a game.

Jerko
03-30-2007, 12:35 PM
Of course it's a bust. Gonzalez and Floyd haven't won a single game yet and Garcia has yet to lose a game.

Dammit I knew it was bad but not that bad.........

jiffy247
03-30-2007, 12:35 PM
Of course it's a bust. Gonzalez and Floyd haven't won a single game yet and Garcia has yet to lose a game.


good point

soxfan13
03-30-2007, 12:36 PM
Jiffy, it's always good to put a question out there. It gets people thinking and posting.

By the way, welcome to WSI!

:D:

Yes it is good to pose the question, but only if you have some results to compare. The season hasnt started so how can you argue whether the trade is a bust or not?

WhiteSox5187
03-30-2007, 12:39 PM
Again, as other people here are saying, I think it's too early to call it a bust. And as I've said a million times, I don't mind trading Freddy, but I thought we should have gotten more for him. I'm not sure who exactly we should have gotten but I would have liked to have somebody who has proven they can play well at the major league level.

I think ultimately the trade hinges on Gio. I'm not impressed at all by what I saw from Floyd and I don't think he's going to light the world on fire anywhere (Triple A included). But Gio might be a great pitcher one day. We'll see.

sox1970
03-30-2007, 12:58 PM
Way too early, even though I think Floyd will be a complete bust. I sort of think they jumped the gun on that trade and could have seen if they could have gotten more.

Or heck, if they were going to trade McCarthy, they also could have waited until spring trainig to see how the other guys were doing. Then again, Freddy has been injured this spring, so who knows?

Let's revisit this in July, 2010 when Gio Gonzalez is starting the All Star Game.

eriqjaffe
03-30-2007, 12:59 PM
Don't forget, Garcia is having trouble with his velocity....again and he was pulled because of injury the other day.Freddy always had trouble getting up for unimportant games.

Juice16
03-30-2007, 01:03 PM
why dont you wait a season or 4 to make this judgement:rolleyes:

Considering we have the opportunity to win the WS this year, I'd say yes this is a bust.

soxfan13
03-30-2007, 01:21 PM
Considering we have the opportunity to win the WS this year, I'd say yes this is a bust.

Yes we do have a chance so why dont you wait til after the year is over to start arguing whether this trade is a bust or not. So I guess if Danks wins 15 games and Contreras goes 8-14 then the Freddy Garcia trade is a bust. Now I get why you guys already think the trade is a bust

UserNameBlank
03-30-2007, 01:30 PM
I think Gio at the very least is going to be a nice reliever. Floyd at the very least is worth a bench player. If Garcia has a very good season, the Sox miss the playoffs, and the downgrade from Garcia to the guys who will pitch in the 5 spot is so great that it could be looked at as a reason for missing the payoffs, you can't say this is a bust. If we had let Garcia go to FA we wouldn't get draft picks that could help us now, and it would be a stretch to think that the draft picks we would have gotten would become as valuable as Gio and Floyd. Besides, if Garcia was still here and ended up having a bad season with the Sox, at his salary it would be entirely possible that KW wouldn't have even offered arbitration in the first place, which would have meant no draft picks at all.

BainesHOF
03-30-2007, 01:36 PM
I'm not mad that we traded Garcia, but I'm mad that we didn't get more for him. When the 2006 season ended it was clear we needed to improve in left and center field. I can accept bringing back Podsednik and hoping he's healthy and can return to form, but our center field situation is still muddled and certainly not in the kind of shape you'd expect from a serious World Series contender. To have both left and center in a state of uncertainty going into the 2007 season is unacceptable. You'd think that we could have shored up one of the positions for Garcia.

Compounding the problem was trading Garcia for a pitcher who's mentally weak. My goodness, I knew we were in trouble with Floyd the moment I heard him interviewed. It's clear he lacks confidence in a major way. Sorry, Don Cooper isn't going to be able to change Floyd's wilting personality. Did the Sox not do their homework on the mental makeup of this kid or did they just choose to ignore it? Either way, it's not good. Of the top of my head, I can't recall a pro athlete who was seemingly so weak-willed as Floyd. It doesn't make him a bad guy. It does, however, make his chance of experiencing success at the major league level a longshot.

I don't care if Garcia never wins another game. At the time we traded him, we should have gotten more.

johnr1note
03-30-2007, 01:56 PM
I don't care if Garcia never wins another game. At the time we traded him, we should have gotten more.


In the best of all possible worlds, yea, I agree.

But Freddie had already lost enough velocity in the second half last year that it was fair to say he was missing a foot off his fastball. So far, in spring training in FL, where the desert air and high sky doesn't inflate spring pitching stats like it does for our boys, Garcia has been a disaster.

Yea, Gio is a future consideration. But Floyd's not washed up. Depending on the circumstances of the next 6 weeks, you could see Floyd back on the ML roster, either as a starter or in the bullpen.

And you have to look at all the offseason moves as a package -- we traded away Garcia to make room for McCarthy, and then traded McCarthy to get two roster ready pitchers. If Danks and Masset or even moderately successful, we traded away a fading star for two solid pitchers, and freed up a lot of cash. I see it as a win-win -- unless Garcia leads Philadelphia to the post season. But I won't hold my breath.

ChiSoxLifer
03-30-2007, 01:59 PM
Don't forget, Garcia is having trouble with his velocity....again and he was pulled because of injury the other day.


At this point I can outrun his fastball.

jdm2662
03-30-2007, 02:17 PM
At this point I can outrun his fastball.

And Paul Konerko can steal on him with ease...

jabrch
03-30-2007, 03:03 PM
personally, i think for the right now, it is, but hopefully gio gonzalez can step it up in a couple years to make this worth it. gavin floyd not to make the big team is very dissappointing!

It's a bit early to conclude that - don't you think?

A) What will Garcia do this year?

B) What will Floyd do in the next 2 years?

C) What will Gio do in the next 5 years?

soxtalker
03-30-2007, 03:03 PM
As others have said, this is way too early to be evaluating the trade.

But for just an initial gut reaction: I think that I might be tempted to worry that the trade was a bust -- if I were a Phillies fan! Freddy's velocity is down, and he has muscle soreness. They only get a year out of him, so any time spent injured (DL or less than optimal pitching condition) is a big loss. Hopefully (for him and them), he comes back and wins some big games, but I know that I'd be nervous if he was in a Sox uniform.

cheeses_h_rice
03-30-2007, 03:06 PM
Guys I gotta tell you how pissed I am that Kenny Williams Jr. traded away Alex Rodriguez III for Corey Patterson III. We'll never catch those Royals now!!!

KRS1
03-30-2007, 03:07 PM
As others have said, this is way too early to be evaluating the trade.

But for just an initial gut reaction: I think that I might be tempted to worry that the trade was a bust -- if I were a Phillies fan! Freddy's velocity is down, and he has muscle soreness. They only get a year out of him, so any time spent injured (DL or less than optimal pitching condition) is a big loss. Hopefully (for him and them), he comes back and wins some big games, but I know that I'd be nervous if he was in a Sox uniform.

Precisely. Freddy is likely to start the season on the DL and people think this is a bust trade already? What logic is there behind that thinking? Just because Floyd didnt make our squad doesnt mean he wont turn out to be a good pitcher for us, and Gio is still just 21. Floyd was rushed in the first place, and being in the minors may do him, and us in the long run, some good. Freddy was singed for one more year, lost velocity, has arm troubles, and yet people still cant see the big picture behind that deal.

PaulDrake
03-30-2007, 03:58 PM
I'm not mad that we traded Garcia, but I'm mad that we didn't get more for him. When the 2006 season ended it was clear we needed to improve in left and center field. I can accept bringing back Podsednik and hoping he's healthy and can return to form, but our center field situation is still muddled and certainly not in the kind of shape you'd expect from a serious World Series contender. To have both left and center in a state of uncertainty going into the 2007 season is unacceptable. You'd think that we could have shored up one of the positions for Garcia.

Compounding the problem was trading Garcia for a pitcher who's mentally weak. My goodness, I knew we were in trouble with Floyd the moment I heard him interviewed. It's clear he lacks confidence in a major way. Sorry, Don Cooper isn't going to be able to change Floyd's wilting personality. Did the Sox not do their homework on the mental makeup of this kid or did they just choose to ignore it? Either way, it's not good. Of the top of my head, I can't recall a pro athlete who was seemingly so weak-willed as Floyd. It doesn't make him a bad guy. It does, however, make his chance of experiencing success at the major league level a longshot.

I don't care if Garcia never wins another game. At the time we traded him, we should have gotten more. That's exactly the way I feel, and others have made similar posts. Why all the hostility from more than a few here? Your characterization of Floyd is right on the money IMO.

soxwon
03-30-2007, 05:54 PM
personally, i think for the right now, it is, but hopefully gio gonzalez can step it up in a couple years to make this worth it. gavin floyd not to make the big team is very dissappointing!

come on, I cant stand people who want success right away, it doesnt work that way.
these trades were made for the future, Gio is gonna be lights out
Floyd will be a winner, give it time.

The BMAC trade looks great for us, and most hated that one more than the Garcia deal

soxwon
03-30-2007, 05:55 PM
arent we saying Bmac?

TomBradley72
03-30-2007, 05:59 PM
Compounding the problem was trading Garcia for a pitcher who's mentally weak. My goodness, I knew we were in trouble with Floyd the moment I heard him interviewed. It's clear he lacks confidence in a major way. Sorry, Don Cooper isn't going to be able to change Floyd's wilting personality. Did the Sox not do their homework on the mental makeup of this kid or did they just choose to ignore it? Either way, it's not good. Of the top of my head, I can't recall a pro athlete who was seemingly so weak-willed as Floyd. It doesn't make him a bad guy. It does, however, make his chance of experiencing success at the major league level a longshot.

I have a friend in the Phillies front office...this was exactly their assessment of him and the reason they did not think he would achieve his potential.

JB98
03-30-2007, 06:14 PM
I have a friend in the Phillies front office...this was exactly their assessment of him and the reason they did not think he would achieve his potential.

Floyd looks like a tremendous wuss to me. I just shake my head every time I think about that trade. We should have gotten more for Freddy, even though he looks like he's lost it this spring. It's too soon to give up on Floyd, but I'm not optimistic.

I think Gonzalez could help us down the line. He might be the guy who tips the trade in our favor.

psyclonis
03-30-2007, 06:25 PM
Yes its a bust... mainly because if Freddy is a .500 pitcher at the break, hes worth way more than gio at the trade deadline 07. (teams know hes a Playoff STUD)
Some consider Freddy our best pitcher in 06 and we got little value for him. Or in other words... we traded away one year of a $18Mil pitcher in his contract year for someone that cant help us until 2010.

WhiteSox5187
03-30-2007, 10:11 PM
Ultimately I think the Freddy trade might be one of those things where we traded a little present to get us some help in the future. I'm sure Kenny was thinking that Floyd would be able to help us this year and Gio would help us down the road, but I think that Floyd probably isn't ever going to help us because it sounds like all of his problems are in his head and I'm not so sure Don Cooper can help him out there...Gio might (probably is the better word) help us down the road, but he's not going to helping in '07 campaign. Probably not until 2009 by which time Freddy will be long gone. All you can do is chalk up to "we'll see" sort of trade. But if getting rid of Freddy's salary helps us hold onto Buerhle, Crede and/or Dye then it will be worth it.

Sargeant79
03-31-2007, 12:33 AM
Some consider Freddy our best pitcher in 06

Who thought that?

Freddy was pretty bad for 5 out of 6 months last year.

KRS1
03-31-2007, 12:36 AM
we traded away one year of a $18Mil pitcher in his contract year for someone that cant help us until 2010.


:rolleyes:

IndianWhiteSox
03-31-2007, 04:42 AM
Yes its a bust... mainly because if Freddy is a .500 pitcher at the break, hes worth way more than gio at the trade deadline 07. (teams know hes a Playoff STUD)
Some consider Freddy our best pitcher in 06 and we got little value for him. Or in other words... we traded away one year of a $18Mil pitcher in his contract year for someone that cant help us until 2010.

First of all, it was 10 million, so please don't say that he was worth Zito or Santana money. Second of all, the only gripe I have with trading Big Lame Garcia, was that they didn't get another pitching prospect like Madson(you know someone who can be fixed by coop) and only got two prospects for him. But whatever, Danks or Floyd will win more games this year than Big Lame.

On the other hand, if AND ONLY IF Freddy hates Philly and only if AND ONLY IF Ozzie really asks KW to bring him back as a CHEAP free agent back to the Sox, then I would have no problem with big lame. But otherwise I'll pass on that idea.

soxfan13
03-31-2007, 05:56 AM
First of all, it was 10 million, so please don't say that he was worth Zito or Santana money. Second of all, the only gripe I have with trading Big Lame Garcia, was that they didn't get another pitching prospect like Madson(you know someone who can be fixed by coop) and only got two prospects for him. But whatever, Danks or Floyd will win more games this year than Big Lame.

On the other hand, if AND ONLY IF Freddy hates Philly and only if AND ONLY IF Ozzie really asks KW to bring him back as a CHEAP free agent back to the Sox, then I would have no problem with big lame. But otherwise I'll pass on that idea.

You should consider the trade a bust. Didnt you have Floyd marked down for 15 wins this year:tongue:

IndianWhiteSox
03-31-2007, 06:07 AM
You should consider the trade a bust. Didnt you have Floyd marked down for 15 wins this year:tongue:

It's a LONG SEASON! For all we know, Floyd can come up with the Sox in may or june and still win those 15 games. So as you said earlier, let's wait until the season starts.

soxfan13
03-31-2007, 06:14 AM
It's a LONG SEASON! For all we know, Floyd can come up with the Sox in may or june and still win those 15 games. So as you said earlier, let's wait until the season starts.

Just playing did you miss my smiley:cool:

IndianWhiteSox
03-31-2007, 06:17 AM
Just playing did you miss my smiley:cool:

Nope. :cool:

Just wanted to state a few things.

:cool:

balke
03-31-2007, 08:00 AM
Garcia won 17 games last season, and besides the ERA had some nice looking #'s. I thought he fit really well with the Sox, and he's young. To me he was a paycut. If I knew who they were choosing to keep by losing him, it would help judging the trade. I'll be a bit shocked though if we lose Garcia, then Buehrle, and only keep Contreres and Vazquez for bunch of money.

WhiteSox5187
03-31-2007, 11:42 AM
Garcia won 17 games last season, and besides the ERA had some nice looking #'s. I thought he fit really well with the Sox, and he's young. To me he was a paycut. If I knew who they were choosing to keep by losing him, it would help judging the trade. I'll be a bit shocked though if we lose Garcia, then Buehrle, and only keep Contreres and Vazquez for bunch of money.
I think losing Buerhle to build around Jose and Vazquez is stupid. Jose is about fifty and Vazquez might be a total head case. Buerhle and Garland are the guys I'd build around...

champagne030
03-31-2007, 11:57 AM
It's a LONG SEASON! For all we know, Floyd can come up with the Sox in may or june and still win those 15 games. So as you said earlier, let's wait until the season starts.


:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

gosox41
04-01-2007, 09:31 AM
why dont you wait a season or 4 to make this judgement:rolleyes:


Because after last season KW said if he trades any of his starters it would be for someone who can help in 2007 and beyond.

Right now two things need to happen to make this true:
1. One of the Sox pitchers needs to have an injury
2. Floyd needs to pitch well.

Floyd may not even be on the 2007 team this year. Knowing one can't predict injuries (ie Garcia's biceps issue) and assuming KW didn't knowingly trade damaged goods, then this trade is a bust. We're trying to win now.

If KW made this trade and never made the comment about only trading starters for guys who can help in 2007 then I wouldn't be so down on the trade. KW's comments implied Floyd is a major league ready pitcher.



Bob

gosox41
04-01-2007, 09:37 AM
Precisely. Freddy is likely to start the season on the DL and people think this is a bust trade already? What logic is there behind that thinking? Just because Floyd didnt make our squad doesnt mean he wont turn out to be a good pitcher for us, and Gio is still just 21. Floyd was rushed in the first place, and being in the minors may do him, and us in the long run, some good. Freddy was singed for one more year, lost velocity, has arm troubles, and yet people still cant see the big picture behind that deal.


I agree with some of your thinking. But you can't look at the injury situation and call the trade a bust. That's more good luck for KW and bad luck for Philly. Let's say Buehrle goes down with a bad back and misses extensive time. Can we then rail on KW for not trading him last season?

The idea behind the trade was to get younger pitching that can help the Sox in 2007 and beyond. KW said that (I'm paraphrasing). Seeing as how KW didn't know Garcia was going to be hurt when the trade was made isn't the point. KW still traded a proven winner from a team with WS hopes for a guy who couldn't even make the team.

And if you want to start the discussion that KW knowingly traded damaged goods in Garcia then here's a few points to consider:

1. Show proof of that
2. Good for KW on pulling a fast one
3. It only hurts KW's ability to pull off future deals if he can't be trusted. I think KW has to much integrity to do that.


Bob

jabrch
04-01-2007, 10:38 AM
Because after last season KW said if he trades any of his starters it would be for someone who can help in 2007 and beyond.

Right now two things need to happen to make this true:
1. One of the Sox pitchers needs to have an injury
2. Floyd needs to pitch well.

Bob

Or we need to use the 8mm that Freddy was slated to earn for something more productive as compared to the difference between what Garcia delivers and what we get from Danks.

jabrch
04-01-2007, 10:40 AM
I think losing Buerhle to build around Jose and Vazquez is stupid. Jose is about fifty and Vazquez might be a total head case. Buerhle and Garland are the guys I'd build around...

Buehrle turned down an offer. Garland was extended two years ago and will likely be offered a chance to stay again. What exactly are you bellyaching about?

WhiteSox5187
04-01-2007, 12:52 PM
Buehrle turned down an offer. Garland was extended two years ago and will likely be offered a chance to stay again. What exactly are you bellyaching about?
So Buerhle turns down an extension offer, do we just say "Oh well, he's gone!" Garland is still under contract, so I'm not too worried about him...my point was this, if I'm Kenny the guys I lock up long term (which for JR means three years) are Buerhle and Garland. But it looks like the guys Kenny is interested in keeping are Jose and Javy. I say this because Kenny came within an eyelash of trading Garland this season and hasn't made an offer to Buerhle, meanwhile Javy has gotten extended and Jose is going to be our opening day starter making him our ace. I'm not saying that nothing will happen with Buerhle (he might be extended tommorrow for all I know) but it looks like that Kenny is going to build the rotation around Jose and Javy and I'm just saying that I wouldn't do that.

KRS1
04-01-2007, 03:23 PM
I agree with some of your thinking. But you can't look at the injury situation and call the trade a bust. That's more good luck for KW and bad luck for Philly. Let's say Buehrle goes down with a bad back and misses extensive time. Can we then rail on KW for not trading him last season?

The idea behind the trade was to get younger pitching that can help the Sox in 2007 and beyond. KW said that (I'm paraphrasing). Seeing as how KW didn't know Garcia was going to be hurt when the trade was made isn't the point. KW still traded a proven winner from a team with WS hopes for a guy who couldn't even make the team.

And if you want to start the discussion that KW knowingly traded damaged goods in Garcia then here's a few points to consider:

1. Show proof of that
2. Good for KW on pulling a fast one
3. It only hurts KW's ability to pull off future deals if he can't be trusted. I think KW has to much integrity to do that.


Bob


KW traded a pitcher who had lost a lot off his fastball. That is proof enough to everyone invlolved in this deal, that there might be something wrong with Freddy. That is enough for me to discuss Freddy being dealt for those concerns, and I NEVER SAID HE WAS. I said he has had arm troubles, he has with us and now the Phillies. I said he was probably going to start the season on the DL and someone starts a post NOW calling this trade a bust. What is the logic there? I said we got two young arms, one of which might help us now, and both that have a good chance of helping us down the road, for a guy with one year left on his deal in a current market where mediocre guys are getting $10mil. The seed of doubt behind Freddy's health was planted last year when he was throwing in the mid to high 80's, when he was as recently as the season before, he was throwing in the low to mid 90's. Now every team had that information in front of them when talking about a deal, and yet a team made the deal. That was in no way Kenny's attempt to fleece a team, just a team taking a risk on a proven player with some question marks around him because of the upside he showed in the past.

Freddy was singed for one more year, lost velocity, has arm troubles, and yet people still cant see the big picture behind that deal.

Nothing I said wasnt true, or even speculation, just the facts about the deal. I never speculated we traded damaged goods, I never said KW was pulling a fast one here. Don't put words into my mouth. I merely commented on the timing of a thread calling this trade a bust, because Floyd hadn't made the team. Even though on the other end of the deal, Freddy won't be helping the Phils from the start of the season either. It makes zero sense to bring up this thread at this point, not only because of the fact that Freddy is already hurt, but because this was a deal largely made to impact our future pitching sitation. How do we even begin to call it a bust now?

Jurr
04-02-2007, 06:44 AM
All of this premature talk brings me back to my teenage years. What memories..............:redface:

Tragg
04-02-2007, 08:58 AM
The intent of the trade was good - a declining pitcher with 1 year left on his contract for 2 young arms.
The outcome, however, is in doubt - we'll have to see if it helps us.

jabrch
04-02-2007, 09:37 AM
So Buerhle turns down an extension offer, do we just say "Oh well, he's gone!" ...

But it looks like the guys Kenny is interested in keeping are Jose and Javy.

There is no reason to believe any of this is true. He says he was still working with all of his players on extensions up until yesterday. They have declined, at this point, to extend on KW's terms. So they will now to to FA. But even that doesn't mean they are gone.

As far as Buehrle goes, I'm a fan and all - but he's not what he was three years ago - at least not based on what we saw last year in the second half. Based on that - I wouldn't give him 4/60 or something like that - would you?

KW is not building around Jose/Javy - he is building around having as many options as he can that are signed and that are affordable within the budget. Right now, Mark doesn't fit in those parameters. Freddy wasn't projecting to either. KW has a board with who he projects to be his rotaiton for the next 3 years. If Mark wants to stay on that board, he will have to agree to pitch at a price that we can afford, while continuing to support the rest of the team.

The ball is totally in Mark's court. Where does he want to be next year?

White Sox Randy
04-02-2007, 12:04 PM
I have no problem with Garcia being traded but he didn't get much in return. Floyd is a buster. Gio may become a good ML starting pitcher in 3 years - maybe.

I would rather have had the Houston deal and I'm pretty sure that if KW would have held out another month or more that he could've gotten more than that.

Buehrle is gone and I'm fine with that. He either is traded in July or is gone after the season. No deal is going to happen because some team wil pay him considerably more than the Sox will. And, I don't blame Buehrle and I don't blame the Sox. The fit isn't there anymore.

The bottom line is that if Vazquez doesn't turn his "great stuff" into simply being an intelligent pitcher than the Sox aren't going anywhere. There is no ace on this staff. Contreras is too inconsistent and old. Maybe the Sox will get lucky and he'll put together a real solid year but I won't hold my breath waiting for it. Vazquez, unfortunately, is the key to this staff's success.

gosox41
04-02-2007, 07:37 PM
KW traded a pitcher who had lost a lot off his fastball. That is proof enough to everyone invlolved in this deal, that there might be something wrong with Freddy. That is enough for me to discuss Freddy being dealt for those concerns, and I NEVER SAID HE WAS. I said he has had arm troubles, he has with us and now the Phillies. I said he was probably going to start the season on the DL and someone starts a post NOW calling this trade a bust. What is the logic there? I said we got two young arms, one of which might help us now, and both that have a good chance of helping us down the road, for a guy with one year left on his deal in a current market where mediocre guys are getting $10mil. The seed of doubt behind Freddy's health was planted last year when he was throwing in the mid to high 80's, when he was as recently as the season before, he was throwing in the low to mid 90's. Now every team had that information in front of them when talking about a deal, and yet a team made the deal. That was in no way Kenny's attempt to fleece a team, just a team taking a risk on a proven player with some question marks around him because of the upside he showed in the past.



Nothing I said wasnt true, or even speculation, just the facts about the deal. I never speculated we traded damaged goods, I never said KW was pulling a fast one here. Don't put words into my mouth. I merely commented on the timing of a thread calling this trade a bust, because Floyd hadn't made the team. Even though on the other end of the deal, Freddy won't be helping the Phils from the start of the season either. It makes zero sense to bring up this thread at this point, not only because of the fact that Freddy is already hurt, but because this was a deal largely made to impact our future pitching sitation. How do we even begin to call it a bust now?

I never meant to accuse you of saying Freddy was hurt, I'm just cutting off excuses now. Hin being on the DL now has little to do with the time the trade was made.

And it's not to early to call this trade a bust, IMO. KW said he would only trade a starter to get a player who can help in 2007 and beyond. Yes it's early and Floyd still has time to make an appearance in '07, but will he help. Right now the trade isn't helping like KW said it would.

I guess it all goes back to the fact that KW didn't get enough for Freddy, at least to help this team in 2007. I said so at the time and I stand by that. If Floyd weren't a head case and was on the roster today I probably would say it's too early because at least Floyd made the team, something he was given every chance to do in Spring Training.

The way I view it is the Sox traded a 17 game winner who finished the year strong for nothing that will help them contend in the 2007 season.

Long term this may be a good trade if Gonzalez does anything. I have zero faith in Floyd now or in the future.

But as long as this team is trying to win now, any trade that is made should be one that can help today, not in 3 years. The Sox had other needs this offseason, but KW was set on getting young pitching in any trade. It's not about quanitity, it's about quality. If you can't get a good young pitcher for a 17 game winner that can make an immediate impact, a CFer or LFer would be useful. I'm sure finding a young major league ready LFer that can out perform Pods offensively and defensively is relatively easy when trading a guy like Freddy Garcia.



Bob



Bob

FarWestChicago
04-02-2007, 08:36 PM
I'm sure finding a young major league ready LFer that can out perform Pods offensively and defensively is relatively easy when trading a guy like Freddy Garcia.Why are you so sure of that? You only focus on the number of wins Freddy had. Other GM's probably looked deeper at the declining fastball across two years and the high cost for essentially a rental player. This assumption Freddy was worth a young, star player may be questionable.

IndianWhiteSox
04-04-2007, 06:01 AM
Long term this may be a good trade if Gonzalez does anything. I have zero faith in Floyd now or in the future.

People probably said the same things about Jon Garland and Joe Crede as well.

If you can't get a good young pitcher for a 17 game winner that can make an immediate impact, a CFer or LFer would be useful. I'm sure finding a young major league ready LFer that can out perform Pods offensively and defensively is relatively easy when trading a guy like Freddy Garcia.


Are you really sure about that statement? I mean big lame wasn't lights out or anything for the mid four months of the year. If you really look at the stats:

first six weeks: 7-1
rest of the year: 10-7

That really isn't all that impressive when you talk about elite pitcher's and it's not like he didn't have run support either. The truth is that when you look at only the W's and L's, you also have to look at when they got them and how they got them as well.

gosox41
04-04-2007, 08:03 PM
Why are you so sure of that? You only focus on the number of wins Freddy had. Other GM's probably looked deeper at the declining fastball across two years and the high cost for essentially a rental player. This assumption Freddy was worth a young, star player may be questionable.


Maybe I overestimate his value. I figured with guys like Ted Lily getting $40 million, Freddy is a bargain. He did finish the year strong. Sure he lost something off his fast ball, but he finished strong and knows how to pitch. Maybe the Sox don't get a star, but they can get an upgrade over Pods. One doesn't need to be a star to do that.

I just feel Freddy had more value then Floyd. I know Gonzalez was part of the deal, but KW said he'd get a player to help us in 2007.

Bob

spiffie
04-06-2007, 09:58 AM
Maybe I overestimate his value. I figured with guys like Ted Lily getting $40 million, Freddy is a bargain. He did finish the year strong. Sure he lost something off his fast ball, but he finished strong and knows how to pitch. Maybe the Sox don't get a star, but they can get an upgrade over Pods. One doesn't need to be a star to do that.

I just feel Freddy had more value then Floyd. I know Gonzalez was part of the deal, but KW said he'd get a player to help us in 2007.

Bob
You can't view an individual trade in a vaccum though. Think of it this way:

-KW trades Garcia for Gio and Gavin, giving two young pitchers who he feels good about.
-With that added safety KW trades McCarthy for Danks and Massett.
-Massett comes in and saves the team yesterday and gives them a huge emotional lift. Danks is still to come as the 5th starter.

KW's net result of his trades was to help the team now. And that's what counts, not how any one trade looks on its own.

SoxxoS
04-06-2007, 10:18 AM
People probably said the same things about Jon Garland and Joe Crede as well.



Jon Garland and Joe Crede showed flashes - Jon Garland was 20 when he started his first game I believe - Then his next season he had a 3.70 ERA starting 16 games. That is why nobody said that about Jon Garland.

Joe Crede sucked his first call ups in 2000 and 2001, but only had 64 at bats - Then 200 in 2002 when he had a .826 OPS. Not to mention playing good defense.

Nobody should have said they had zero faith in those guys, just b/c they showed flashes. The biggest difference between Crede and Garland v. Floyd, is that Floyd has regressed, and that is a very bad sign.

FarWestChicago
04-06-2007, 10:22 AM
Jon Garland and Joe Crede showed flashes - Jon Garland was 20 when he started his first game I believe - Then his next season he had a 3.70 ERA starting 16 games. That is why nobody said that about Jon Garland. :o: You must have missed charlie browned and the great number of Garland bashers.

gosox41
04-07-2007, 08:38 AM
You can't view an individual trade in a vaccum though. Think of it this way:

-KW trades Garcia for Gio and Gavin, giving two young pitchers who he feels good about.
-With that added safety KW trades McCarthy for Danks and Massett.
-Massett comes in and saves the team yesterday and gives them a huge emotional lift. Danks is still to come as the 5th starter.

KW's net result of his trades was to help the team now. And that's what counts, not how any one trade looks on its own.

First off, I like the McCarthy trade. It made perfect sense. I never criticized that one.

But the trades are independent of one another. Even KW admitted he had no plans to trade Brandon unless he rec'd an offer that was too good to pass up.

But the Garcia trade is bad because no one from that trade has helped the Sox. If KW made the trade and said give these guys a couple of years and we'll have something to show for it, I wouldn't be critical. But he didn't say that. I'll worry about 2009 and 2010 a little later. I'm more concerned about winning this year which KW also seems to be concerned with.

If 2009-2010 are such a big concern, then why not break up this team and rebuild? Keep in mind I think this is idiotic. But I also think it's idiotic to trade a starter for someone who can help in 2007 and beyond and get nothing for 2007.


Bob

Steelrod
04-07-2007, 09:13 AM
But the Garcia trade is bad because no one from that trade has helped the Sox. If KW made the trade and said give these guys a couple of years and we'll have something to show for it, I wouldn't be critical. But he didn't say that. I'll worry about 2009 and 2010 a little later. I'm more concerned about winning this year which KW also seems to be concerned with.

Garcia hasn't exactly helped his team in 2007 either!!!