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View Full Version : If the Crede and BA comparisions doesn't end here......


IndianWhiteSox
03-26-2007, 11:41 AM
Article of Crede's story:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070325&content_id=1858949&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Hokiesox
03-26-2007, 01:29 PM
Now look, I'm a BA supporter as much as anybody around here and I really hope he makes it big with the White Sox, but the mention of BA in an article about Crede is Sox propaganda/fluff - whatever you want to call it. The comparisons are valid and I've brought them up frequently in other threads. I just don't get how 2 paragraphs about BA in an article about Crede's career should end the argument. Both sides have valid arguments.

IndianWhiteSox
03-26-2007, 01:38 PM
Now look, I'm a BA supporter as much as anybody around here and I really hope he makes it big with the White Sox, but the mention of BA in an article about Crede is Sox propaganda/fluff - whatever you want to call it. The comparisons are valid and I've brought them up frequently in other threads. I just don't get how 2 paragraphs about BA in an article about Crede's career should end the argument. Both sides have valid arguments.

I realize that I only used the title to get some feedback as personally in my opinion, I think that BA and Crede have too much in common not for BA to succeed.

nodiggity59
03-26-2007, 01:45 PM
For every Joe Crede, Jon Garland, or Aaron Rowand, there's a Joe Borchard, Miguel Olivo, or Danny Wright.

The BA and Crede comparison is extremely arbitrary. Just because they both play for the Sox and struggled when they first came up doesn't make them especially similar.

Tragg
03-26-2007, 02:05 PM
For every Joe Crede, Jon Garland, or Aaron Rowand, there's a Joe Borchard, Miguel Olivo, or Danny Wright.

The BA and Crede comparison is extremely arbitrary.
Except that BA IS in Crede's class defensively - and BA plays an important defensive position.

nodiggity59
03-26-2007, 02:15 PM
Except that BA IS in Crede's class defensively - and BA plays an important defensive position.

Ok. You're still dealing with literally hundreds of similar players - good defenders at important positions who had trouble hitting - trying to break into MLB over the last couple of years.

That's still way too many players to make them similar or, more to the point, that there is any reason to argue BA will have success b/c of what Crede did.

Even if you could say that Crede and BA are EXTREMELY similar (practically impossible unless you are a proficient enough baseball person to compare their mechanics, strength, pitch recognition, approach at the plate, etc), that STILL would not be a valid point to argue that BA will have success.

They're different players.

I think BA will be a good player. .285-20-85 for a couple years at his peek with good defense. But I won't try to line him up with Joe Crede to make my projection have seemingly more validity.

Tragg
03-26-2007, 02:22 PM
Ok. You're still dealing with literally hundreds of similar players - good defenders at important positions who had trouble hitting - trying to break into MLB over the last couple of years.

That's still way too many players to make them similar or, more to the point, that there is any reason to argue BA will have success b/c of what Crede did.

Even if you could say that Crede and BA are EXTREMELY similar (practically impossible unless you are a proficient enough baseball person to compare their mechanics, strength, pitch recognition, approach at the plate, etc), that STILL would not be a valid point to argue that BA will have success.

They're different players.

I think BA will be a good player. .285-20-85 for a couple years at his peek with good defense. But I won't try to line him up with Joe Crede to make my projection have seemingly more validity.

You're right. But I am taking a different angle. It's not that I know that BA will turn into a Crede like hitter; it's that BECAUSE he's so adept defensively, it's worth the gamble to see if he will, because he sort of pays his way defensively. (also the fact that the alternative to Anderson is mediocre). That's why I supported keeping Crede around and that's why I feel the same way about BA. Also, both have hit well at every level.
Who knows how patient GUILLEN would have been with Crede were Crede an outfielder (where you have a lot of substitutes) OR if Crede sucked for a few months in 2005.

I see your point and you're certainly right...but I still think it's worth the risk (especially since his replacement is a veteran who is proven over a career to be nothing more than an average hitter - if it were Andruw Jones or Anderson, then....)

QCIASOXFAN
03-26-2007, 02:27 PM
For every Joe Crede, Jon Garland, or Aaron Rowand, there's a Joe Borchard, Miguel Olivo, or Danny Wright.

The BA and Crede comparison is extremely arbitrary. Just because they both play for the Sox and struggled when they first came up doesn't make them especially similar.
This the post of the month right here, good call.

soxinem1
03-26-2007, 02:37 PM
For every Joe Crede, Jon Garland, or Aaron Rowand, there's a Joe Borchard, Miguel Olivo, or Danny Wright.

The BA and Crede comparison is extremely arbitrary. Just because they both play for the Sox and struggled when they first came up doesn't make them especially similar.

Some mis-comparisons here, as BA and Borchard were never really handed a position on an every day basis, and Olivo could probably fall in here too.

For a large majority of their careers, Crede and Garland were below average producers as a whole, and were given four full seasons to get their acts together, while Rowand and Anderson always had to look over their shoulders.

BA needs to play everyday, plain and simple. Just let him develop.

munchman33
03-26-2007, 02:44 PM
Brian Anderson is a very good defensive centerfielder with a very long swing. I think a more apt comparison is Chris Singleton.

eriqjaffe
03-26-2007, 02:52 PM
Some mis-comparisons here, as BA and Borchard were never really handed a position on an every day basisNot really, since BA was the everyday centerfielder out of ST last year. He was handed an everyday position, he just lost his job.

champagne030
03-26-2007, 02:58 PM
Not really, since BA was the everyday centerfielder out of ST last year. He was handed an everyday position, he just lost his job.

He was benched in Game 2 last season.

CLR01
03-26-2007, 03:41 PM
He was benched in Game 2 last season.

2 for 3 with 2 runs, 2 rbi's and a walk isn't good enough.

eriqjaffe
03-26-2007, 04:05 PM
2 for 3 with 2 runs, 2 rbi's and a walk isn't good enough.http://soxmachine.com/images4/palehose70323.jpg

SBSoxFan
03-26-2007, 04:22 PM
Some mis-comparisons here, as BA and Borchard were never really handed a position on an every day basis, and Olivo could probably fall in here too.

For a large majority of their careers, Crede and Garland were below average producers as a whole, and were given four full seasons to get their acts together, while Rowand and Anderson always had to look over their shoulders.

BA needs to play everyday, plain and simple. Just let him develop.

Wasn't Borchard handed the right field spot after Mags got hurt? I realize it was during the season, but it seemed like Borchard played a fair amount of games day in and day out.

You are right about Rowand, however, every off-season it seemed like they were looking for a new CF. His seasons were a little better than BA's, however!

Mohoney
03-26-2007, 10:12 PM
Crede's minor league numbers were also light years better than Anderson's.

CLR01
03-27-2007, 12:18 AM
Crede's minor league numbers were also light years better than Anderson's.

Based on what? Some awards?

maurice
03-27-2007, 05:09 PM
Based on Crede repeating levels?

Crede before breaking
out in late-2005:
- 824 ABs at AA
- 822 ABs at AAA
- 1,400+ ABs at MLB

Anderson right now:
- 185 AB at AA
- 448 ABs at AAA
- 399 ABs at MLB

eriqjaffe
03-27-2007, 05:35 PM
Wasn't Borchard handed the right field spot after Mags got hurt? I realize it was during the season, but it seemed like Borchard played a fair amount of games day in and day out.Yeah, pretty much. He logged more games & starts in RF than anybody else on the Sox that year, with Timo Perez having more games played (and just as many starts) in RF as Ordonez.

Then again, I'm pretty confident in saying that BA is light-years better than Joe Borchard is.

PennStater98r
03-27-2007, 06:00 PM
I think the more imporant thing in trying to draw the comparison is to look at their minor league statistics.

Joe Crede:

Year Team OBP SLG AVG
1996 R-White Sox .326 .439 .299
1997 A-Hickory .319 .371 .271
1998A-Winston-Sal .387 .514 .315
1999AA-Birmingham .303 .347 .251
2000AA-Birmingham .384 .490 .306
2001AAA-Charlotte .349 .464 .276
2002AAA-Charlotte .359 .571 .312
TOTALS: .352 .464 .292

Close to 800 AB for Joe

Brian Anderson

2003R-Great Falls .492 .592 .388
2004A-Winston-Sal .394 .531 .319
2004AA-Birmingham .346 .416 .270
2005AAA-Charlotte .360 .469 .295
2005R-Johnson Cty .383 .513 .331
TOTALS: .373 .486 .306

Around 300 AB for Brian


Aside from the fact that Joe had a hell of a lot more At Bats in the minors, he was consistantly putting up triple crown type numbers after adjusting to his new level of play - mainly in 2000 and 2002. Brian Anderson (who I like btw) did not show the power that Crede was showing in the Junior Circuit. His average always seemed above average, but never did they talk about this guy as being a future All Star or MVP during his time in the minors - unlike Crede.

The Sox were patient with Creded because he showed significant evidence while Robin, Herbert and Jose were holding down third base. Anderson did not get that type of talk - at least not as seriously as Joe.

Thoughts?

maurice
03-27-2007, 07:49 PM
Aside from the fact that Joe had a hell of a lot more At Bats in the minors, he was consistantly putting up triple crown type numbers after adjusting to his new level of play . . . .

That's my point. It's not unusual for a player to struggle early after being promoted and then improve over time. Crede and Anderson BOTH did this, even at the MLB level. The difference is that Crede put up huge numbers by remaining at a level for hundreds of ABs after adjusting. Anderson, OTOH, just got promoted to the next level and had to start adjusting again.

I'm not saying that either approach was right or wrong, but it explains the numbers. It's not surprising that a good prospect who repeats levels is more likely to put up MVP numbers than a good prospect who doesn't repeat levels.

Looking at your numbers from this perspective . . .

Crede's 1st year at AAA: .349 .464 .276
Anderson's only year at AAA: .360 .469 .295

Crede's 1st year at AA: .303 .347 .251
Anderson's half-year at AA: .346 .416 .270

CLR01
03-27-2007, 09:34 PM
rian Anderson (who I like btw) did not show the power that Crede was showing in the Junior Circuit.

Thoughts?

Crede put up better HR numbers but the Doubles and Triples were pretty close or Ba's were better and overall the slg% is pretty close. When you break it down the only stats I would say are significantly better are BA's AA and Crede's 2nd year at AA and even then the overall numbers are not as far off. You need to remember that Anderson only had 185 abs in AA. Even Crede's year 2 AAA stats are pretty close to Anderson's, the only huge difference being HR's and as expected slg%.

Looking at the complete minor league numbers I'd have to say Crede's numbers are a long way from being "light years better than Anderson's" as mentioned earlier in the thread.

http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/A.jpg

http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/AA.jpg

http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/AAA.jpg

SBSoxFan
03-28-2007, 01:27 PM
Crede put up better HR numbers but the Doubles and Triples were pretty close or Ba's were better and overall the slg% is pretty close. When you break it down the only stats I would say are significantly better are BA's AA and Crede's 2nd year at AA and even then the overall numbers are not as far off. You need to remember that Anderson only had 185 abs in AA. Even Crede's year 2 AAA stats are pretty close to Anderson's, the only huge difference being HR's and as expected slg%.

Looking at the complete minor league numbers I'd have to say Crede's numbers are a long way from being "light years better than Anderson's" as mentioned earlier in the thread.

http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/A.jpg

http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/AA.jpg

http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/AAA.jpg

Can I have a graph with that spreadsheet?

CLR01
03-28-2007, 01:43 PM
Can I have a graph with that spreadsheet?


I'm sorry, the graphs are all incomplete as Crede has too many stats that don't count.

maurice
03-28-2007, 01:50 PM
You need to remember that Anderson only had 185 abs in AA.

Quoted for emphasis. Meanwhile, Crede had 824 ABs at AA.

My report that Anderson was getting promoted to AAA was met with total disbelief in some circles. Many were shocked that the Sox brought him along that quickly. They thought he would at least start the year in AA and then move up, especially since he was recovering from a wrist injury at the time.

SBSoxFan
03-28-2007, 02:11 PM
I'm sorry, the graphs are all incomplete as Crede has too many stats that don't count.

:kneeslap:

chaerulez
03-28-2007, 04:03 PM
For every Joe Crede, Jon Garland, or Aaron Rowand, there's a Joe Borchard, Miguel Olivo, or Danny Wright.

The BA and Crede comparison is extremely arbitrary. Just because they both play for the Sox and struggled when they first came up doesn't make them especially similar.

How is Rowand in the same category as Crede or Garland? The latter are all star caliber players while one is barely a starter.

chaerulez
03-28-2007, 04:04 PM
I'm sorry, the graphs are all incomplete as Crede has too many stats that don't count.

We should have Shoota compile what he thinks Crede's "true" stats are.

CLR01
03-28-2007, 04:10 PM
We should have Shoota compile what he thinks Crede's "true" stats are.

It would be a list of nothing but outs, supported by graphs, of course.