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View Full Version : Cheap Shot at Erstad?


crazyozzie02
03-20-2007, 04:50 PM
This is from rotoworld.com:

"Tadahito Iguchi went 0-for-4 on Monday, dropping his spring average to .139.

Iguchi isn't supplying manager Ozzie Guillen with any reason to keep him in the second spot in the order. He'll probably bat sixth or seventh against righties until Darin Erstad gets hurt. Say April 15 or so."

I didnt like it too much. I say lets see what Erstad can bring us. Just wanted to know what you guys think

spawn
03-20-2007, 04:51 PM
This is from rotoworld.com:

"Tadahito Iguchi went 0-for-4 on Monday, dropping his spring average to .139.

Iguchi isn't supplying manager Ozzie Guillen with any reason to keep him in the second spot in the order. He'll probably bat sixth or seventh against righties until Darin Erstad gets hurt. Say April 15 or so."

I didnt like it too much. I say lets see what Erstad can bring us. Just wanted to know what you guys think
Who cares what Rotoworld thinks.

HotelWhiteSox
03-20-2007, 04:57 PM
This is from rotoworld.com:

"Tadahito Iguchi went 0-for-4 on Monday, dropping his spring average to .139.

Iguchi isn't supplying manager Ozzie Guillen with any reason to keep him in the second spot in the order. He'll probably bat sixth or seventh against righties until Darin Erstad gets hurt. Say April 15 or so."

I didnt like it too much. I say lets see what Erstad can bring us. Just wanted to know what you guys think

You do know that that's not Ozzie saying that right? Otherwise, who cares?

Speaking of Erstad, they just put a story on him where Ozzie says he'll have 500 at bats. Unfortunately the blurb also quotes a story saying that Anderson is on "the thinnest ice ever". :\

DumpJerry
03-20-2007, 05:00 PM
Roto just got a three month rip from me........:tongue:

crazyozzie02
03-20-2007, 05:00 PM
i know. i take what rotoworld says with a grain of salt. I still think that they just have 5 monkeys in a room with 2 typewriters.

UserNameBlank
03-20-2007, 05:19 PM
I don't think Tadahito's ST batting average has anything to do with his positioning in the opening day lineup. Ozzie hearts Erstad. I just can't wait until I get to hear Hawk talking about how Erstad's 0-4 days are productive because he bunted over Pods once and grounded out to second to advance a runner that never scored.

As far as Erstad getting injured, I hope not. I do hope Anderson puts on a show though. He needs to be in CF.

ondafarm
03-20-2007, 05:40 PM
Keeping with my new policy:


Rotoworld sent to the minors for reporting out-of-shape. Expected back in mid-season form by July at earliest.

santo=dorf
03-20-2007, 06:35 PM
They're not fans of Erstad to say the least.

Manager Ozzie Guillen said Sunday that Darin Erstad will bat second in the lineup against right-handed pitchers.

That'll put Scott Podsednik and Erstad at the top of the lineup, push Brian Anderson to a platoon role or back to Triple-A, and means Tadahito Iguchi will slide down the lineup against righties. Between Podsednik and Erstad the fearsome middle of the White Sox lineup may not have a ton of runners to drive in.

Darin Erstad went 3-for-4 on Wednesday to raise his spring average to .351.

All three were pretty much bloop singles. Of course, it'd be fine if he delivered just as many bloopers during the regular season, but Erstad hasn't had a .300 average, a .350 OBP or a slugging percentage over .400 since 2000. In his last full season in 2005, he hit .273/.325/.371. It appears very likely that Erstad will enter the season as a regular for the White Sox, probably resulting in Brian Anderson returning to Triple-A. However, he'll likely either get hurt or prove to be a liability in time.


White Sox signed outfielder Darin Erstad to a one-year, $1 million contract with a club option for 2008.

There's a good chance Erstad will be the White Sox's center fielder against right-handers when healthy, though he'll have to beat out Brian Anderson and Ryan Sweeney for the job. It's possible that there will be room in the lineup for both Erstad and Anderson initially if Scott Podsednik is ready to go. We'll be curious to see if Ozzie Guillen tries Erstad as a No. 2 hitter in order to move Tadahito Iguchi down to a run-producing spot, something he's indicated in the past that he's wanted to try. Erstad hasn't managed a .350 OBP since 2000, so he should be placed in the bottom third of the order.
Darin Erstad will sign a one-year deal with the White Sox, MLB.com reports.

An option for 2008 is included. Erstad is set to battle Brian Anderson and Ryan Sweeney for the center field job this spring. He could also play some left if Scott Podsednik isn't going to be ready for the beginning of the season. Ideally, he'd be a fourth outfielder. However, there's a good chance he'll play over Anderson against right-handers until he gets hurt again.

:darkclouds:

Of course there is a lot of truth in there. :anon:

SABRSox
03-20-2007, 06:44 PM
But you forget that Erstad can do no wrong. He's a grinder, etc.

Free Brian Anderson.

oeo
03-20-2007, 06:47 PM
Didn't people question whether both Dye and Thome would stay healthy? Yes, I believe they did, and they were totally wrong on both accounts. From everything I've heard, Erstad is fine. We have the best training staff in baseball, if they say he's alright, he's alright, and has a good chance of staying that way unless he decides to run into a couple of brick walls.

SABRSox
03-20-2007, 06:55 PM
Didn't people question whether both Dye and Thome would stay healthy? Yes, I believe they did, and they were totally wrong on both accounts. From everything I've heard, Erstad is fine. We have the best training staff in baseball, if they say he's alright, he's alright, and has a good chance of staying that way unless he decides to run into a couple of brick walls.

He's not fast enough anymore to do any damage running into a wall. I can't believe this team is putting CF in the hands of Erstad. He's a 4th OF at best.

Free Brian Anderson.

santo=dorf
03-20-2007, 06:57 PM
Please don't ever compare Erstad to Dye and/or Thome again.

Thome is older than Erstad by 4 years, and had a much better history of staying healthy.

Dye's "injury prone" nonsense was debunked due to the fact they were talking about a freak accident.

Erstad is continuously hurt, and even if he is healthy, his offense contributions are nowhere near the leagues of Dye or Thome.

I think Erstad will remain healthy if he is use in a limited role (please no more than 350 at-bats,) but he still isn't a good offensive player at this point in his career.

JorgeFabregas
03-20-2007, 06:59 PM
Brian Anderson ST OPS - .882
Darin Erstad ST OPS - .629

BA's poor offensive rookie year OPS - .649 (365 ABs)
Erstad's injury-riddled 2006 OPS - .605 (95 ABs)

BA - just a notch below gold glove defense
Erstad - once a great CFer, has been moved around because of injuries.

Why is there so much momentum to send BA down to AAA, again?

oeo
03-20-2007, 07:03 PM
Please don't ever compare Erstad to Dye and/or Thome again.

Thome is older than Erstad by 4 years, and had a much better history of staying healthy.

Dye's "injury prone" nonsense was debunked due to the fact they were talking about a freak accident.

Erstad is continuously hurt, and even if he is healthy, his offense contributions are nowhere near the leagues of Dye or Thome.

I think Erstad will remain healthy if he is use in a limited role (please no more than 350 at-bats,) but he still isn't a good offensive player at this point in his career.

Uh...when did I ever say he would give us the production that Dye or Thome do? Never. When did I even compare the three at all? Never. I merely said that they have no idea (AS WELL AS YOU) how healthy he is, or how long he can stay healthy.

You're just looking for confrontation, as evidenced by this post which is just posting for the sake of posting because apparently Erstad is Satan to you.

SABRSox
03-20-2007, 07:04 PM
Why is there so much momentum to send BA down to AAA, again?

I honestly don't know. The Angels moved him from CF for a reason. He was always getting hurt out there. Suddenly that's not going to happen now that he's on the Sox? Sure, Herm is the best in the business, but he's not a miracle worker.

Free Brian Anderson.

Dan Mega
03-20-2007, 07:05 PM
Free Brian Anderson.

POTW. BA should be a lock for the everyday starting CF position.:angry:

oeo
03-20-2007, 07:07 PM
He's not fast enough anymore to do any damage running into a wall. I can't believe this team is putting CF in the hands of Erstad. He's a 4th OF at best.

Free Brian Anderson.

When did I ever say that I wanted him to start in CF? Or start anywhere, for that matter? I said that I think he can stay healthy...read the post.

santo=dorf
03-20-2007, 07:10 PM
Uh...when did I ever say he would give us the production that Dye or Thome do? Never. When did I even compare the three at all? Never. I merely said that they have no idea (AS WELL AS YOU) how healthy he is, or how long he can stay healthy.

You're just looking for confrontation, as evidenced by this post which is just posting for the sake of posting because apparently Erstad is Satan to you.
Quit overreacting.

You specifically called Dye and Thome out by name and I made my case why they shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Erstad. If you didn't want to compare them to Erstad, why did you bother bringing up their names in an Erstad thread? :?:

oeo
03-20-2007, 07:14 PM
Quit overreacting.

You specifically called Dye and Thome out by name and I made my case why they shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Erstad. If you didn't want to compare them to Erstad, why did you bother bringing up their names in an Erstad thread? :?:

I'm not overreacting...you do this same bull**** all the time.

I only said that Dye and Thome both came in here and were going to have injury problems. A lot of people around here agreed with them in Dye's case.

I brought them up because Rotoworld and the rest of the media have no idea how healthy they were, or how healthy Erstad is. You, especially, have no idea; I'll take the Sox training staff's word over what Rotoworld or you think.

I get it, you hate Erstad...you don't need to vocalize it every chance you get.

FedEx227
03-20-2007, 07:26 PM
I'm not overreacting...you do this same bull**** all the time.

I only said that Dye and Thome both came in here and were going to have injury problems. A lot of people around here agreed with them in Dye's case.

I brought them up because Rotoworld and the rest of the media have no idea how healthy they were, or how healthy Erstad is. You, especially, have no idea; I'll take the Sox training staff's word over what Rotoworld or you think.

I get it, you hate Erstad...you don't need to vocalize it every chance you get.

Neither came with anywhere near the injury history of Erstad. Thome had an elbow problem the year before and Dye had a freak broken-leg four years earlier. Otherwise neither of them had anywhere near the problems Erstad has had. Couple that with the fact that the two don't play particularly demanding positions like Erstad, especially positions that require utmost health, speed and athleticism.

santo=dorf
03-20-2007, 07:32 PM
Neither came with anywhere near the injury history of Erstad. Thome had an elbow problem the year before and Dye had a freak broken-leg four years earlier. Otherwise neither of them had anywhere near the problems Erstad has had. Couple that with the fact that the two don't play particularly demanding positions like Erstad, especially positions that require utmost health, speed and athleticism.
Get that logic out of here and quit hating Erstad and/or being a dark cloud.

FarWestChicago
03-20-2007, 07:37 PM
Get that logic out of here and quit hating Erstad and/or being a dark cloud.While I'm actually with you FOBB/Clouds in thinking BA should be the starting CF, I will have to part ways with you on hoping for Erstad to suck. :smile:

FedEx227
03-20-2007, 07:43 PM
Get that logic out of here and quit hating Erstad and/or being a dark cloud.

Yes I tend to forget how much of a grinder Erstad is.

Personally, I don't hate Erstad at all, but frankly... he's not a very good player. I know BA is the scapegoat for all that was wrong with the season after all it was his fault Mark Buehrle couldn't hit the corners, it was his fault Vazquez didn't have the balls to make it past the 5th inning, it was his fault Scott Podsednik completely lost the ability to be a half-way decent leadoff man. But seriously...nothing in Erstad's stats tell me that he's going to be any bit of an upgrade.

Is Rotoworld at all wrong for pointing out that he has done nothing "stat"-worthy of being given 500 at-bats a season.

But do enjoy Erstad grounding into gritty, veteran double-plays. (gotta thank Brushback.com for that one)

BA in AAA is worthless, he's destroyed AAA pitching already. Putting him down there helps us in no-way and give us BIG problems in the future if Dye leaves.

And some wonder why the Sox have only developed ONE position player in the past 7 years.

AZChiSoxFan
03-20-2007, 08:57 PM
Neither came with anywhere near the injury history of Erstad. Thome had an elbow problem the year before and Dye had a freak broken-leg four years earlier. Otherwise neither of them had anywhere near the problems Erstad has had. Couple that with the fact that the two don't play particularly demanding positions like Erstad, especially positions that require utmost health, speed and athleticism.

Let me state up front that I want BA to be the everyday CF on this team.

On a separate note, I don't understand why Erstad is labelled as injury prone. Since his first full season in the bigs, he's only had 2 seasons with < 495 AB's.

FedEx227
03-20-2007, 09:09 PM
Let me state up front that I want BA to be the everyday CF on this team.

On a separate note, I don't understand why Erstad is labelled as injury prone. Since his first full season in the bigs, he's only had 2 seasons with < 495 AB's.

True, but can you seriously tell me this doesn't show body breakdown?

Year-At Bats

1997-539
1998-537
1999-585
2000-676
2001-631
2002-625
2003-258
2004-495
2005-609
2006-95

Outside of 2005, his at-bats are falling tremendously.

Add in the fact that his numbers from 2003-2006 average out to about .260/.314/.357 much worse then his career averages of .286/.341/.416.

However his last 3 years numbers do look very similar to a certain LFer who most of us couldn't wait to get rid of: .275/.342/.378. Infact, Podsednik's career totals destroy what Erstad has done recently (even with his 609 at-bat season):

Pods: +.15 in AVG +.28 in OBP +.21 in SLG

But I did forget to throw in the gritty, grinder, "plays the game the right way" multiplier.

SABRSox
03-20-2007, 09:29 PM
Let me state up front that I want BA to be the everyday CF on this team.

On a separate note, I don't understand why Erstad is labelled as injury prone. Since his first full season in the bigs, he's only had 2 seasons with < 495 AB's.

I've seen him play (when he hasn't been injured.) He's not the same guy Kenny almost traded Garland for.

Jerome
03-20-2007, 10:06 PM
I too hope Erstad doesn't suck but I don't think he should be counted on as anything more than a bench / 4th OF.

HotelWhiteSox
03-20-2007, 10:36 PM
Why is there so much momentum to send BA down to AAA, again?

The only thing that makes sense to me anymore is something behind the scenes or some personal vendetta. I'm starting to wonder if I can call it a conspiracy given how obvious it looks

JB98
03-20-2007, 10:50 PM
The only thing that makes sense to me anymore is something behind the scenes or some personal vendetta. I'm starting to wonder if I can call it a conspiracy given how obvious it looks

Here we go again. Any thread about Erstad/Anderson will eventually devolve into accusations of a personal vendetta against poor, innocent BA. :rolleyes:

JorgeFabregas
03-20-2007, 10:57 PM
I think it can be off the field stuff without being some sort of conspiracy.

BA's definitely out-performing Erstad thus far on the field in spring training.

joeforthree
03-20-2007, 11:56 PM
Here we go again. Any thread about Erstad/Anderson will eventually devolve into accusations of a personal vendetta against poor, innocent BA. :rolleyes:

Or poor, innocent Erstad for that matter.

White Sox Randy
03-21-2007, 12:29 AM
I haven't seen any site or media report favorably on the fact that Erstad is on the White Sox........and that's because ERSTAD SUCKS.

jabrch
03-21-2007, 12:31 AM
Why is there so much momentum to send BA down to AAA, again?

I still haven't seen "momentum to send BA down". All I hear about is people bitching about how bad things will be before the season even starts.

maurice
03-21-2007, 11:49 AM
As often as this topic comes up, we should have a "Free Brian Anderson" tag.

Get to work, you computer geniuses.

FarWestChicago
03-21-2007, 07:18 PM
I haven't seen any site or media report favorably on the fact that Erstad is on the White Sox........and that's because ERSTAD SUCKS.Well, at least you hope Erstad sucks because that would validate your opinion.

Craig Grebeck
03-21-2007, 08:00 PM
Well, at least you hope Erstad sucks because that would validate your opinion.
What does that even mean? I think he's a bad player, but that doesn't mean I won't hope he does well. I hope he and Pods do very well at the top (if Ozzie is really that dumb), but both of their histories and recent injuries don't lend me to believe it's a great move.

FWIW, I hope I'm wrong on everything that I say that's negative. I've been pretty positive of the offseason, I just don't particularly like Pods' or Erstad's numbers and don't believe they warrant playing time.

See, no cheap shots here.

Daver
03-21-2007, 08:25 PM
What does that even mean? I think he's a bad player, but that doesn't mean I won't hope he does well. I hope he and Pods do very well at the top (if Ozzie is really that dumb), but both of their histories and recent injuries don't lend me to believe it's a great move.

FWIW, I hope I'm wrong on everything that I say that's negative. I've been pretty positive of the offseason, I just don't particularly like Pods' or Erstad's numbers and don't believe they warrant playing time.

See, no cheap shots here.

You can't use the past to accurately predict the future, Billy Beane has proven this, in multiple.

Craig Grebeck
03-21-2007, 08:42 PM
You can't use the past to accurately predict the future, Billy Beane has proven this, in multiple.
Well, when a player has put up pretty poor numbers for the past six seasons, you should expect it. It's a trend. I don't understand why this has to be about Billy Beane. You CAN use a player's past to determine whether or not he is a good bet to put up good numbers. Is Erstad? No way in hell. Will he have a positive impact on the club? IMO, only if he is used properly, in a bench role. Anderson is ready.

If we don't go off of the past, what do we go off of?

I am completely against using career numbers, but looking at the previous three seasons is a good barometer of a player's ability, especially in this instance. Obviously there are times when it doesn't work, i.e. prospects with limited AB and PA. But for veterans like Darin, the past is the best predictor of the future.

nodiggity59
03-21-2007, 08:50 PM
If we don't go off of the past, what do we go off of?



First hand evaluation of a player's athleticism, health, mechanics, baseball inteligence, ability to adjust, etc. You must also be able to evaluate his opponents in a similar fashion. You cannot go off of anything stored in a computer, unless that includes daily video footage of the player.

Walkman
03-21-2007, 09:12 PM
You can't use the past to accurately predict the future, Billy Beane has proven this, in multiple.

How has Billy Beane proven this?

Daver
03-21-2007, 09:54 PM
How has Billy Beane proven this?

Show me what he has won.

Daver
03-21-2007, 09:56 PM
Well, when a player has put up pretty poor numbers for the past six seasons, you should expect it. It's a trend. I don't understand why this has to be about Billy Beane. You CAN use a player's past to determine whether or not he is a good bet to put up good numbers. Is Erstad? No way in hell. Will he have a positive impact on the club? IMO, only if he is used properly, in a bench role. Anderson is ready.

If we don't go off of the past, what do we go off of?

I am completely against using career numbers, but looking at the previous three seasons is a good barometer of a player's ability, especially in this instance. Obviously there are times when it doesn't work, i.e. prospects with limited AB and PA. But for veterans like Darin, the past is the best predictor of the future.

Ever heard of using your scouting staff, and your coaches to evaluate talent? I know this is a foreign concept for you, but a lot of teams have used that approach to win a title or two.

White Sox Randy
03-21-2007, 10:01 PM
Erstad sucks.

Craig Grebeck
03-21-2007, 10:02 PM
Ever heard of using your scouting staff, and your coaches to evaluate talent? I know this is a foreign concept for you, but a lot of teams have used that approach to win a title or two.
First of all, don't speak down to me. We are talking about Darin Erstad, not stats or scouting in general. I don't give a rat's ass what a scout sees in DARIN ERSTAD (not players in general, I believe in a healthy balance in stats and scouting. I'm heavy towards stats on the major league level and heavy on scouts in the minors and when developing talent), he hasn't proven anything the last six years other than the fact that he is absolutely out of it.

*not directed at daver*
when people say they find no use for statistics, do they really mean it? seriously? they are very useful at the major league level and provide very good factual evidence of a player's ability.

Daver
03-21-2007, 10:16 PM
First of all, don't speak down to me. We are talking about Darin Erstad, not stats or scouting in general. I don't give a rat's ass what a scout sees in DARIN ERSTAD (not players in general, I believe in a healthy balance in stats and scouting. I'm heavy towards stats on the major league level and heavy on scouts in the minors and when developing talent), he hasn't proven anything the last six years other than the fact that he is absolutely out of it.

*not directed at daver*
when people say they find no use for statistics, do they really mean it? seriously? they are very useful at the major league level and provide very good factual evidence of a player's ability.

Stats definitely have a place, they provide a valuable tool for scouts to judge against, but they are not the be all and end all. Jermaine Dye was tossed from Oakland because he didn't put up stats for two seasons, but that didn't mean he couldn't be a contributor on an MLB roster did it? Or does he have to give back his World Series MVP because it offends the propellerheads that he bucked his trend?

santo=dorf
03-21-2007, 10:24 PM
Stats definitely have a place, they provide a valuable tool for scouts to judge against, but they are not the be all and end all. Jermaine Dye was tossed from Oakland because he didn't put up stats for two seasons, but that didn't mean he couldn't be a contributor on an MLB roster did it? Or does he have to give back his World Series MVP because it offends the propellerheads that he bucked his trend?
Jermaine Dye had an option for $14 million after the 2004 season. The A's would've be insane to pick it up at the time.

FarWestChicago
03-21-2007, 10:46 PM
Jermaine Dye had an option for $14 million after the 2004 season. The A's would've be insane to pick it up at the time.Does that mean he has to give back his World Series ring because Billy Bean was "right"?

santo=dorf
03-21-2007, 10:57 PM
Does that mean he has to give back his World Series ring because Billy Bean was "right"?
:?:

Uh, no. Who is saying that?

Walkman
03-22-2007, 12:13 AM
Show me what he has won.

Sorry -misunderstood -thought you were stroking the Beane.

FedEx227
03-22-2007, 01:09 AM
:?:

Uh, no. Who is saying that?

Not sure exactly.

Obviously, Oakland would not be willing to pay 14 million a year for a guy who had put up 25 HR, 80 RBIs/year his previous two healthy season. I don't think you'd find a GM not in New York/Boston that would do that.