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Fenway
03-15-2007, 10:59 AM
WINTER HAVEN, Fla. - General manager Mark Shapiro agreed Thursday to a five-year contract extension through the 2012 season with the Cleveland Indians, a team he has dismantled and rebuilt into a playoff contender.

Shapiro was only signed through this season - his sixth as Cleveland's GM - before working out a new deal with president Paul Dolan.

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/baseball/mlb/cleveland_indians/16909418.htm

Jaffar
03-15-2007, 11:29 AM
The guy took over a division champion and rebuilt it to compete at a chance at making the playoffs but never making it!

IndianWhiteSox
03-15-2007, 11:45 AM
The guy took over a division champion and rebuilt it to compete at a chance at making the playoffs but never making it!

What are you talking about, he was the named the best GM in baseball for a reason. I mean after all, that's why my name is IndianWhiteSox.

:tongue:

No wonder why that pathetic franchise called the Cleveland "Indians" haven't made the playoffs since 2001. People want to talk about overpaid athletes, Mark Shapiro is an OVERPAID GM. The man hasn't done a damn thing to earn that extension. Well whatever, thank god I'm a SOX fan.

Brian26
03-15-2007, 12:46 PM
No wonder why that pathetic franchise called the Cleveland "Indians" haven't made the playoffs since 2001. People want to talk about overpaid athletes, Mark Shapiro is an OVERPAID GM. The man hasn't done a damn thing to earn that extension. Well whatever, thank god I'm a SOX fan.


I think it's ok to be a Sox fan and still admit that Shapiro deserves a little credit for doing something that most GM's fail at: rebuilding an aging, high-salaried franchise in a short amount of time. I'll be the first to say that KW deserved the GM-of-the-year in '05. But, still, Shapiro came in at a bad time, made some tough decisions, and what he's done is mold a team that is all essentially young at the same time and could easily be a perennial powerhouse for the next five or six years.

soxfan13
03-15-2007, 12:51 PM
I think it's ok to be a Sox fan and still admit that Shapiro deserves a little credit for doing something that most GM's fail at: rebuilding an aging, high-salaried franchise in a short amount of time. I'll be the first to say that KW deserved the GM-of-the-year in '05. But, still, Shapiro came in at a bad time, made some tough decisions, and what he's done is mold a team that is all essentially young at the same time and could easily be a perennial powerhouse for the next five or six years.

No you cant give anybody credit unless the are In the White Sox organization I couldnt agree with you more though:smile:

Brian26
03-15-2007, 12:56 PM
No you cant give anybody credit unless the are In the White Sox organization I couldnt agree with you more though:smile:

Right. I just think it hurts someone's credibility to make such exaggerated comments like that. I hate the Indians as much as anyone, and I'll never forget how much they owned the Sox during the 90's. I remember going to a Sox game in '97, and I swear there were more Indians fans walking down the ramps after the game than Sox fans that night. Still, give Shapiro some credit. Rebuilding so quickly isn't that easy. Ask Jerry Krause.

soxfan13
03-15-2007, 01:01 PM
Right. I just think it hurts someone's credibility to make such exaggerated comments like that. I hate the Indians as much as anyone, and I'll never forget how much they owned the Sox during the 90's. I remember going to a Sox game in '97, and I swear there were more Indians fans walking down the ramps after the game than Sox fans that night. Still, give Shapiro some credit. Rebuilding so quickly isn't that easy. Ask Jerry Krause.

That wasnt false. In the mid to late 90's the Indian fans were always strong here because of easy access to tickets!! My girlfriend at the time (a Indian fan) would go to the games and she would actually run into people she knew from Cleveland:smile:

IndianWhiteSox
03-15-2007, 01:15 PM
I think it's ok to be a Sox fan and still admit that Shapiro deserves a little credit for doing something that most GM's fail at: rebuilding an aging, high-salaried franchise in a short amount of time. I'll be the first to say that KW deserved the GM-of-the-year in '05. But, still, Shapiro came in at a bad time, made some tough decisions, and what he's done is mold a team that is all essentially young at the same time and could easily be a perennial powerhouse for the next five or six years.

Right. I just think it hurts someone's credibility to make such exaggerated comments like that. I hate the Indians as much as anyone, and I'll never forget how much they owned the Sox during the 90's. I remember going to a Sox game in '97, and I swear there were more Indians fans walking down the ramps after the game than Sox fans that night. Still, give Shapiro some credit. Rebuilding so quickly isn't that easy. Ask Jerry Krause.

I guess you may have a point, but the thing is, he's heralded as the best GM in the history of baseball according to some of these wack jobs in the national media despite the fact that he has yet to build a team to the playoffs. I mean I understand a little bit when the national media praises GMs like Terry Ryan, Billy Beane, Bill Stoneman, Pat Gillick, and etc. Because, they've at least fielded playoff contending teams and made some pretty good acquisitions over the years despite my hatred for their teams. But Mark Shapiro, he's only made two good trades(SP Colon for SP Lee, OF Bradley and OF Sizemore, and C Diaz for DH Hafner) that were worth a damn and those were BACK IN 2002! I know rebuilding isn't easy but, the credit that team reserves for doing nothing in the past six years is ridiculous. Besides, don't you have to win more than 90+ games for more than at least one season to be considered a perennial power?

soxfanatlanta
03-15-2007, 01:16 PM
Building a competitive team is a huge aspect by which a GM is judged; especially from a fan's point of view. What I would like to know is how much money has Shapiro earned for Dolan: I'm sure that played a part in his extension.

soxfan13
03-15-2007, 01:18 PM
I guess you may have a point, but the thing is, he's heralded as the best GM in the history of baseball according to some of these wack jobs in the national media despite the fact that he has yet to build a team to the playoffs. I mean I understand a little bit when the national media praises GMs like Terry Ryan, Billy Beane, Bill Stoneman, Pat Gillick, and etc. Because, they've at least fielded playoff contending teams and made some pretty good acquisitions over the years despite my hatred for their teams. But Mark Shapiro, he's only made two good trades(SP Colon for SP Lee, OF Bradley and OF Sizemore, and C Diaz for DH Hafner) that were worth a damn and those were BACK IN 2002! I know rebuilding isn't easy but, the credit that team reserves for doing nothing in the past six years is ridiculous. Besides, don't you have to win more than 90+ games for more than at least one season to be considered a perennial power?

Its not always about your trades.

IndianWhiteSox
03-15-2007, 01:38 PM
Its not always about your trades.

I know that, but otherwise what major(impact not finance sense) free agent signings has he made? And another thing, I thought this was WHITESOX INTERACTIVE where we can have a TOTALLY BIASED OPINION AND ATTITUDE.

SBSoxFan
03-15-2007, 01:48 PM
Its not always about your trades.

Is it about building the oldest bullpen in history?

I don't get all the Cleveland love either. They didn't return from the 2005 near miss last year, and I'm not expecting this year to be any different. Locking up youngsters is great if they produce, but a poor-fielding shortstop and a catcher who was so bad defensively that he had to move to first base doesn't seem like the stuff of a great gm.

Brian26
03-15-2007, 04:58 PM
But Mark Shapiro, he's only made two good trades(SP Colon for SP Lee, OF Bradley and OF Sizemore, and C Diaz for DH Hafner) that were worth a damn and those were BACK IN 2002!

Quite frankly, Shapiro might be tied with Kenny at this point then.

skobabe8
03-15-2007, 05:33 PM
That wasnt false. In the mid to late 90's the Indian fans were always strong here because of easy access to tickets!! My girlfriend at the time (a Indian fan) would go to the games and she would actually run into people she knew from Cleveland:smile:

Those were awful times.

maurice
03-15-2007, 05:44 PM
He's compliled a lot of talent, but the Toons still look more like a fantasy league team than an actual winning MLB team.

UserNameBlank
03-15-2007, 08:33 PM
At some point the Indians are going to have to stop worrying about rebuilding and worry about the now. When that happens, Eric Wedge should be their first casualty.

You can point to some of the trades he's made that ended up steals, but if I was an Indians fan, I would have been mad as all hell if my GM made Paul Byrd the biggest offseason pickup following a 93-win second place season.

maurice
03-15-2007, 09:24 PM
If I was an Indians fan, I would have been mad as all hell if my GM made Paul Byrd the biggest offseason pickup following a 93-win second place season.

. . . while weakening the bullpen--a major factor in their disasterous 2006 season.

SOX ADDICT '73
03-16-2007, 12:05 AM
This is slightly off-topic, but why, after the travesty that was the 2005 Executive of the Year Award, was there no move to postpone voting until at least the end of the regular season, if not after the World Series?

At the time that award was voted on, the Sox looked dead in the water while the Indians were the best team in baseball, certain to overtake the division lead. But when the smoke cleared, Kenny had essentially dismantled the softball team that had been the '04 White Sox and rebuilt it into a WS Champion, while Shapiro's team managed to pull off one of the biggest choke jobs in baseball history, not even making the postseason. The Sporting News and the executives who voted should've been ashamed of themselves.

So enjoy your contract extension, Mark. If there's any justice, every time someone mentions your 2005 achievement, it serves as a haunting mockery of the team that couldn't get the job done.

IndianWhiteSox
03-16-2007, 12:50 AM
Quite frankly, Shapiro might be tied with Kenny at this point then.

Oh really? How so? Considering the fact that everytime KW has made a trade its either a Wash or a Steal.

He's compliled a lot of talent, but the Toons still look more like a fantasy league team than an actual winning MLB team.

Exactly, there are way too many players of the same position on that roster.

At some point the Indians are going to have to stop worrying about rebuilding and worry about the now. When that happens, Eric Wedge should be their first casualty.

You can point to some of the trades he's made that ended up steals, but if I was an Indians fan, I would have been mad as all hell if my GM made Paul Byrd the biggest offseason pickup following a 93-win second place season.

Well considering the fact that they play in Cleveland the city of chokers, it only makes sense that they only worry about rebuilding.

. . . while weakening the bullpen--a major factor in their disasterous 2006 season.

That's the wisdom of the great Mark Shapiro.

This is slightly off-topic, but why, after the travesty that was the 2005 Executive of the Year Award, was there no move to postpone voting until at least the end of the regular season, if not after the World Series?

At the time that award was voted on, the Sox looked dead in the water while the Indians were the best team in baseball, certain to overtake the division lead. But when the smoke cleared, Kenny had essentially dismantled the softball team that had been the '04 White Sox and rebuilt it into a WS Champion, while Shapiro's team managed to pull off one of the biggest choke jobs in baseball history, not even making the postseason. The Sporting News and the executives who voted should've been ashamed of themselves.

So enjoy your contract extension, Mark. If there's any justice, every time someone mentions your 2005 achievement, it serves as a haunting mockery of the team that couldn't get the job done.

Agreed, I mean how the hell does a guy like KW get screwed over for an award that was rightfully his? Oh yeah I forgot, MLB's obsession with the East Coast and teams in the eastern timezone.

Mohoney
03-16-2007, 04:07 AM
What are you talking about, he was the named the best GM in baseball for a reason. I mean after all, that's why my name is IndianWhiteSox.

:tongue:

No wonder why that pathetic franchise called the Cleveland "Indians" haven't made the playoffs since 2001. People want to talk about overpaid athletes, Mark Shapiro is an OVERPAID GM. The man hasn't done a damn thing to earn that extension. Well whatever, thank god I'm a SOX fan.


You can't be that mad about '05, dude. Shapiro's a good GM. Don't blame him that the media gave him an award that he didn't deserve.

The guy found Sizemore and Hafner, and when you can couple an awesome table setter with a beastly lefty stick, and they're BOTH homegrown, it makes some of the other spots on your roster much easier to fill. Shapiro's definitely keeping up his end of the bargain so far.

Our division is now the undisputed cream of the crop in this whole damn league, and KW, Shapiro, Ryan, and even Dombrowski (I never thought I'd be saying that) are the reasons why.

IndianWhiteSox
03-16-2007, 04:11 AM
You can't be that mad about '05, dude. Shapiro's a good GM. Don't blame him that the media gave him an award that he didn't deserve.

The guy found Sizemore and Hafner, and when you can couple an awesome table setter with a beastly lefty stick, and they're BOTH homegrown, it makes some of the other spots on your roster much easier to fill. Shapiro's definitely keeping up his end of the bargain so far.

Our division is now the undisputed cream of the crop in this whole damn league, and KW, Shapiro, Ryan, and even Dombrowski (I never thought I'd be saying that) are the reasons why.

Yea because the Rangers and Nationals(Expos) are pathetic franchises.

Mohoney
03-16-2007, 04:21 AM
Yea because the Rangers and Nationals(Expos) are pathetic franchises.

You still have to give credit to the guy that fleeced them. Let's put it this way: if Danks totally tears **** up and wins 100 games in our uniform, doesn't KW deserve some credit, even though he fleeced the Rangers?

IndianWhiteSox
03-16-2007, 04:31 AM
You still have to give credit to the guy that fleeced them. Let's put it this way: if Danks totally tears **** up and wins 100 games in our uniform, doesn't KW deserve some credit, even though he fleeced the Rangers?

I guess, but even then, those were the only good moves made by Shapiro as opposed to KW who's made dozens of great moves which have brought a championship.

UserNameBlank
03-16-2007, 06:38 PM
You still have to give credit to the guy that fleeced them. Let's put it this way: if Danks totally tears **** up and wins 100 games in our uniform, doesn't KW deserve some credit, even though he fleeced the Rangers?

True, but the Rangers really have made some pathetic moves over the last few years, from the Chan-Ho Park and ARod contracts, to Hafner, to trading Sledge, Chris Young, and Adrian Gonzalez for Otsuka, to giving up Mench and Cordero for about 2 months of Carlos Lee when they had no realistic shot of making the playoffs, etc. If the Danks/Masset/Rasner trade becomes a steal then you can say KW fleeced the Rangers and still give him most of the credit, but you also have to look at the Rangers and not be surprised.

UserNameBlank
03-16-2007, 06:47 PM
I guess, but even then, those were the only good moves made by Shapiro as opposed to KW who's made dozens of great moves which have brought a championship.

I agree 100%.

ANY TEAM that trades away the type of talent that Cleveland traded had better get some serious young impact players in return. The fact that Shapiro won a couple of those deals doesn't make him a great GM IMO. It just means he is doing his job.

You look at KW and all the small moves he has made over his career that have turned out huge (Miles for Uribe, Guerrier for Marte, Borchard for Thornton, Jenks for nothing, Loaiza for nothing then for Contreras, the AJ/El Duque/Hermanson/Iguchi signings, Bajenaru for Cintron, etc. etc.) and then you add it to the big moves he has made, of which most in recent years have worked out (the Thome trade, the first Garcia trade). KW = awesome GM.

If you want to look at good GM's in the Central, look at Minny and Detroit and some of the small moves they have made that turned out big. Even going back to 2004 and 2005 with Detroit, they got Guillen for nothing, Farnsworth for Novoa basically who when traded to ATL brought back more young pitching, soon-to-be incarcerated Urbina for Polanco, etc. Shapiro is the 4th best GM in the Central, and depending on what Dayton Moore ends up doing with KC, could be the 5th. That is hardly anything for anyone to get excited about.

Brian26
03-16-2007, 07:54 PM
I guess, but even then, those were the only good moves made by Shapiro as opposed to KW who's made dozens of great moves which have brought a championship.

I think everyone here agrees that Kenny is the overall better GM, no questions asked. My disagreement with you came from the first page when you made the asinine remark that "Shapiro's never done a damn thing" and didn't deserve an extension. If Shapiro doesn't deserve one, there are 25 other GM's in baseball that don't deserve to have jobs either.

Brian26
03-16-2007, 07:58 PM
Oh really? How so? Considering the fact that everytime KW has made a trade its either a Wash or a Steal.


Considering Fogg and Kip Wells are still pitching in the big leagues while Ritchie's been retired for four years, I don't see how your statement is "fact."

Don't reply with the comeback that "well, that trade was five years ago" since you said "every time."

Kenny's claim to fame will always be his amazing free agent pickups before the '05 season. Getting AJ, Dye, Iguchi, El Duque, Jenks, and Hermanson was mastermind.

IndianWhiteSox
03-18-2007, 08:17 AM
Oh really? How so? Considering the fact that everytime KW has made a trade its either a Wash or a Steal.


Considering Fogg and Kip Wells are still pitching in the big leagues while Ritchie's been retired for four years, I don't see how your statement is "fact."

Don't reply with the comeback that "well, that trade was five years ago" since you said "every time."

Kenny's claim to fame will always be his amazing free agent pickups before the '05 season. Getting AJ, Dye, Iguchi, El Duque, Jenks, and Hermanson was mastermind.

Oh boy, I can't believe that KW let Kip Wells and Josh Fogg go for absolutely nothing. I mean those guys are going to be future hall of famers. Especially Kip Wells with the Cards and Josh Fogg with the Rockies.

The words I have bolded are the key words. Do you honestly think that Josh Fogg and Kip Wells would have ever helped us between the years 2002-2006? The answer would be HELL NO! They probably wouldn't have even made the 40 man roster for us this year. I mean, the Todd Ritchie trade was bad in 2002. But considering the fact that those two have still been major disappointments in their careers, it still is a wash.

Tragg
03-18-2007, 09:09 AM
The words I have bolded are the key words. Do you honestly think that Josh Fogg and Kip Wells would have ever helped us between the years 2002-2006? The answer would be HELL NO! They probably wouldn't have even made the 40 man roster for us this year. I mean, the Todd Ritchie trade was bad in 2002. But considering the fact that those two have still been major disappointments in their careers, it still is a wash.

Of course they would have helped us. They are average pitchers. Certainly from 2002-2004, we had many below average pitchers on our roster. Either one could have manned the 5th starter spot (i.e. shored up our most signficant weakness) and the other would have made those bullpens.
It was a lousy trade - he's not perfect.
As far as Williams v Shapiro, it's Williams 5 plus a WS and Shapiro 0 (i.e. Shapiro's tribe have never finished ahead of Williams' Sox).

IndianWhiteSox
03-18-2007, 12:26 PM
Of course they would have helped us. They are average pitchers. Certainly from 2002-2004, we had many below average pitchers on our roster. Either one could have manned the 5th starter spot (i.e. shored up our most signficant weakness) and the other would have made those bullpens.
It was a lousy trade - he's not perfect.
As far as Williams v Shapiro, it's Williams 5 plus a WS and Shapiro 0 (i.e. Shapiro's tribe have never finished ahead of Williams' Sox).

There's a difference between pitching in a league where 1/3 of the lineup can't hit and pitching in a league where everyone in the lineup is at least capable of hitting above .300 and at least 20 hrs.

Brian26
03-18-2007, 06:07 PM
There's a difference between pitching in a league where 1/3 of the lineup can't hit and pitching in a league where everyone in the lineup is at least capable of hitting above .300 and at least 20 hrs.

IndianWhiteSox: King of the exaggerations.

I'm trying to figure out when BA and Uribe hit .300 with 20 homers.

IndianWhiteSox
03-19-2007, 12:24 AM
IndianWhiteSox: King of the exaggerations.

I'm trying to figure out when BA and Uribe hit .300 with 20 homers.


Capable is a key word you forgot to mention.

Brian 26: The king of misreading my posts

Not to mention, BA and Uribe will do that in 2007.

ilsox7
03-19-2007, 12:55 AM
Capable is a key word you forgot to mention.

Brian 26: The king of misreading my posts

You're way off. While the AL may be the superior league, it is absolutely insane to even think that every line-up has 9 regulars CAPABLE of hitting .300 and 20 homers. It's insane. I'd stop ripping on people's ability to comprehend and re-think your evaluation of baseball in the AL.

In fact, to put your gross exaggerations in perspective, last year the AL saw 20 regulars hit .300 or better. In 2005, the number was 16. So go on all you want about "capable" and the rest of us will stick with reality.

IndianWhiteSox
03-19-2007, 10:00 AM
You're way off. While the AL may be the superior league, it is absolutely insane to even think that every line-up has 9 regulars CAPABLE of hitting .300 and 20 homers. It's insane. I'd stop ripping on people's ability to comprehend and re-think your evaluation of baseball in the AL.

In fact, to put your gross exaggerations in perspective, last year the AL saw 20 regulars hit .300 or better. In 2005, the number was 16. So go on all you want about "capable" and the rest of us will stick with reality.

OK fine, maybe I should have said potential the numbers 15HR and about .250 instead. Maybe, I also shouldn't do that, its just that I hate when people misquote on stuff. But the point is, its a lot harder to pitch in the NL than in the AL, due to the complete line up that comes with the DH.

ilsox7
03-19-2007, 02:00 PM
But the point is, its a lot harder to pitch in the NL than in the AL, due to the complete line up that comes with the DH.

I doubt you'd get much argument from that point. The previous poster was simply pointing out that you were greatly exaggerating, and you were.