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FloridaSox
03-13-2007, 04:41 PM
Gavin Floyd 3.2 innings, 9 hits, 2 walks and 6 runs, all earned. Looks like #5 starter is now wide open for Danks.

skobabe8
03-13-2007, 04:46 PM
Gavin Floyd 3.2 innings, 9 hits, 2 walks and runs, all earned. Looks like #5 starter is now wide open for Danks.

2 runs? thats pretty good for 9 hits and 2 walks!

Soxfest
03-13-2007, 04:46 PM
Wide open 100% at this point!

White_Sock
03-13-2007, 04:46 PM
It is the dawning of the Dudes for Danks

CLR01
03-13-2007, 04:47 PM
2 runs? thats pretty good for 9 hits and 2 walks!

That should be 6 runs. A little worse.

I want Mags back
03-13-2007, 05:01 PM
looks like 04 all over again, with no 5th at all

ilsox7
03-13-2007, 05:02 PM
looks like 04 all over again, with no 5th at all

March 13.

ondafarm
03-13-2007, 05:10 PM
I think if you are reading between the lines, no, this race is not wide open. With only one standard Sox starter (Pierzinski) this was an effort to see how a guy without his good breaking ball (in AZ) would get out of jams. Clearly, the kid was frustrated, but not wholly ineffective, 3Ks 2 BBs, stranded five runners in scoring position and gave up only two doubles. Danks may perform better than Floyd, but Texas has their AAA team in against Danks.

When the Sox have five extra base hits and the opposition only two, this doesn't look like a total failure during AZ ST with high heat.

Besides the chump umpire with the worst Questec rating ever seen (less than 75% accurate for one game) is calling the plate.

White_Sock
03-13-2007, 05:24 PM
If it's up to Ozzie, I think he chooses Danks hands down despite the quality of batters faced. Floyd was pitching for his life today (as if her were an mlb starter) with more on the line than anyone accept Danks and he blew it. Danks' pitches seem to be working out just fine in the AZ heat.

Ozzie has already raved about Danks to the press. I think todays game (Floyd vs. Danks) is just going to be another indicator to Ozzie that Danks is his guy.

soxfan43
03-13-2007, 05:30 PM
I'm sure this has been covered here before, but does Floyd have any minor league options left? If not, looking like he'll be the long man out of the pen.

HotelWhiteSox
03-13-2007, 05:42 PM
March 13.

He's still right.

santo=dorf
03-13-2007, 05:45 PM
I'm sure this has been covered here before, but does Floyd have any minor league options left? If not, looking like he'll be the long man out of the pen.
He has one left.

JB98
03-13-2007, 05:47 PM
He has one left.

Aardsma has one left too. He and Floyd are going to have to pick it up a bit in order to make this club.

Masset and Danks are outpitching them so far.

ilsox7
03-13-2007, 05:50 PM
He's still right.

It's asinine to say the Sox have no 5th starter based on a couple of weeks of spring training. Using the same logic we also have no #2, #3, or #4 starter. If it were June 13, he may have a point. But it's not.

No wonder this place implodes after every Sox loss. It's March ****ing 13 and people are already declaring that the Sox have no plausible option for the #5 starter. It amazes me how many folks here love to rip on the Tribune, yet spew the same **** the newspaper does. But somehow the Tribune are misinformed idiots (which most of their writers are) yet dozens of folks make the same exact arguments here that the Tribune does in their rag.

JermaineDye05
03-13-2007, 05:55 PM
The ending line on Floyd and Danks today

Floyd

3.2 IP.. 9 H.. 6 R.. 6 ER.. 2 BB.. 3 SO

ERA on the spring 8.38

Danks

3.0 IP.. 2 H.. 2 R.. 1 ER.. 1 BB.. 3 SO

ERA on the spring 2.00

thedudeabides
03-13-2007, 05:57 PM
If it's up to Ozzie, I think he chooses Danks hands down despite the quality of batters faced. Floyd was pitching for his life today (as if her were an mlb starter) with more on the line than anyone accept Danks and he blew it. Danks' pitches seem to be working out just fine in the AZ heat.

Ozzie has already raved about Danks to the press. I think todays game (Floyd vs. Danks) is just going to be another indicator to Ozzie that Danks is his guy.

I don't think he is pitching for his life in the second full week of spring training. He may have been working on a particular pitch or instructed not to use one of his out pitches today. These are the type of things you work on in spring training. So, according to this logic if he's lights out the next two weeks, it's too late because he had a bad outing on March 13? :o:

Jjav829
03-13-2007, 06:10 PM
I don't think he is pitching for his life in the second full week of spring training. He may have been working on a particular pitch or instructed not to use one of his out pitches today. These are the type of things you work on in spring training. So, according to this logic if he's lights out the next two weeks, it's too late because he had a bad outing on March 13? :o:

Pitching for his life is a bit extreme, but Floyd is pitching for a rotation spot. He's had 3 outings thus far this spring and has probably 3 more left. At this point, John Danks has clearly outpitched Floyd. So with each having probably 3 more starts before the decision is made, Danks has the lead. Floyd doesn't have much longer to make his case. If he gets shelled again in his next start, and Danks pitches well again, that may just about do it if the Sox are as serious about Danks being ready as they are indicating.

JB98
03-13-2007, 06:11 PM
I don't think he is pitching for his life in the second full week of spring training. He may have been working on a particular pitch or instructed not to use one of his out pitches today. These are the type of things you work on in spring training. So, according to this logic if he's lights out the next two weeks, it's too late because he had a bad outing on March 13? :o:

Oh, there is definitely still time left. But right now, Danks looks the best of the candidates. There are two spots remaining in the bullpen too, so Floyd could still make the club even if he isn't the fifth starter.

Jenks, Thornton and MacDougal are obviously on the club. I'd be stunned if Sisco doesn't come North with the team. After that, who knows? I think Masset is looking good to make the club. Aardsma and Logan, I'm in wait-and-see mode with those guys. Logan is throwing just as well as he did last spring, but I wonder what will happen when we start playing for real.

JB98
03-13-2007, 06:12 PM
Pitching for his life is a bit extreme, but Floyd is pitching for a rotation spot. He's had 3 outings thus far this spring and has probably 3 more left. At this point, John Danks has clearly outpitched Floyd. So with each having probably 3 more starts before the decision is made, Danks has the lead. Floyd doesn't have much longer to make his case. If he gets shelled again in his next start, and Danks pitches well again, that may just about do it if the Sox are as serious about Danks being ready as they are indicating.

Maybe next time, they'll flip-flop it. Have Danks start and have Floyd work in relief. Make sure Danks has the opportunity to pitch against somebody's 'A' lineup.

ondafarm
03-13-2007, 06:13 PM
The ending line on Floyd and Danks today

Floyd

3.2 IP.. 9 H.. 6 R.. 6 ER.. 2 BB.. 3 SO

ERA on the spring 8.38

Danks

3.0 IP.. 2 H.. 2 R.. 1 ER.. 1 BB.. 3 SO

ERA on the spring 2.00

Floyd against the major league lineup and with a scratch defense behind him.

Danks against a AAA lineup. They both failed to pitch out of jams and didn't pick up teammates making errors, Floyd's uncalled.

This race is far from over.

White_Sock
03-13-2007, 06:21 PM
Danks did pitch out of the jam, but the defense couldn't make the plays. Race far from over? Yes. Is Danks the the front runner? Yes.

ShoelessJoeS
03-13-2007, 06:25 PM
Danks continues to impress with each start, I'm kind of pulling for him as he seems like the best candidate.

I've seen nothing from Floyd that makes me confident in him as the 5th starter. Anyone else agree?

JB98
03-13-2007, 06:27 PM
Danks continues to impress with each start, I'm kind of pulling for him as he seems like the best candidate.

I've seen nothing from Floyd that makes me confident in him as the 5th starter. Anyone else agree?

Well, I didn't like the Garcia deal, and I'm not a big believer in Floyd. But as others have indicated, the competition isn't over yet.

ShoelessJoeS
03-13-2007, 06:30 PM
Well, I didn't like the Garcia deal, and I'm not a big believer in Floyd. But as others have indicated, the competition isn't over yet.Oh there is no doubt that the competition isn't over.

I just think Kenny coming out and saying that the 5th spot was essentially Floyd's might have gone to his head for one, and may have fueled a fire within Danks as well.

CLR01
03-13-2007, 06:52 PM
They both failed to pitch out of jams and didn't pick up teammates making errors, Floyd's uncalled.

What game were you following? The only "jam" Danks got in was in the seventh when he gave up a hit and a sac bunt. After a pop up single to ss and two throwing errors by Gonzalez he managed to get two flyouts to end the inning. Does he have to strikeout the side after an error to get credit for "picking up his teammates and pitching out of a jam"?

veeter
03-13-2007, 07:02 PM
Well, I didn't like the Garcia deal, and I'm not a big believer in Floyd. But as others have indicated, the competition isn't over yet.Gio is part of the Garcia trade too. Let's see how he turns out also. For what ever reason I think Floyd will be o.k. On the highlights, the double he gave up to Shammy was down the middle, with AJ setting up outside. So he's probably missing his spots. The downside to that is major leaguers don't let you get away with that.

JB98
03-13-2007, 07:07 PM
Gio is part of the Garcia trade too. Let's see how he turns out also. For what ever reason I think Floyd will be o.k. On the highlights, the double he gave up to Shammy was down the middle, with AJ setting up outside. So he's probably missing his spots. The downside to that is major leaguers don't let you get away with that.

Well, over the long haul, I actually like Gio better than Floyd. But my immediate concern is getting back to a championship level in 2007. I'm skeptical that Floyd is going to provide us with immediate help. Hopefully, this is just a couple of rough outings, and he'll settle down and help us once the regular season begins.

PaulDrake
03-13-2007, 07:24 PM
He's still right. Make that three of us.

kittle42
03-13-2007, 07:32 PM
Make that three of us.

I agree, too, but man do I hope we're wrong.

Let me ask some of you experts here, do you think the Royals have a legitimate shot at the World Series this year? The answer is yes, everyone has a "shot," but the chances are extremely low. But how can we tell, there hasn't even been a game played yet?

My point is that paper can tell you things a lot of the times (not definitively, but it can give you a "more likely than not that something will occur" insight) and, on paper, we have a huge hole at the No. 5 starter right now. Yes, we should wait to see what happens and hope against hope that one of these guys suddenly turns it on come April, but you can't say you don't see how one could think the more likely scenario is failure.

goon
03-13-2007, 08:10 PM
I think if you are worried about the 5th starter based off how Danks, Floyd and Haegar have been throwing, the same would apply with McCarthy in that role. He had a great year in 2005, but Brandon's 2006 was bad for a lot of reasons. This Spring he's only pitched 4 innings, 8 H, 5 ER, 2 BB, 5 SO. Between the three 5th Starter candidates, I have confidence that one will prove he's up to the challenge.

Danks has pitched 9 innings, racked up 7 H, 2 ER, 1 BB, 6 SO.

The Immigrant
03-13-2007, 08:13 PM
on paper, we have a huge hole at the No. 5 starter right now

Based on spring training performance alone, that hole is no greater than it would be if McCarthy was still around. Let's give the young guys, especially Danks, a couple more weeks before we start freaking out.

BigPapaPump
03-13-2007, 08:19 PM
Sorry guys I lost my desk job and haven't been able to follow as closely as I like, but are the only two possible options Danks and Floyd? I really would like to see Haeger get a shot especially out of the dry air of AZ and back in Chicago.

sox1970
03-13-2007, 08:31 PM
Sorry guys I lost my desk job and haven't been able to follow as closely as I like, but are the only two possible options Danks and Floyd? I really would like to see Haeger get a shot especially out of the dry air of AZ and back in Chicago.

I'm pulling for Haeger. I'd like to see them use Haeger as starter and reliever for the first couple months, while the other 4 pitch on normal rest as much as possible. Then re-evaluate in late May once the AAA guys get about 8-9 starts under their belts.

viagracat
03-13-2007, 08:39 PM
I'm guessing #5 is Floyd's spot to lose as he has fewer minor league options than Danks, who is only 21. If Danks really does emerge as the #5 in ST, so be it and Godspeed to him, but I imagine everyone would prefer that he at least start the season in Charlotte for more experience and seasoning. I've seen too many young pitchers over the years brought up too early just to get hammered by major league hitters, and were never the same after that.

Danks could be the big southpaw we need if and when Buehrle leaves. No need to rush him, unless, of course, there are no other options. He will get his chance and I'm excited about his potential.

I'd be very surprised if Haeger ends up getting the role, but I've been surprised before.

FarWestChicago
03-13-2007, 08:47 PM
... but you can't say you don't see how one could think the more likely scenario is failure.I can say that. I think only pansied out wusses are giving up at this point. I think Lip is the only one who has ever officially given up on a season in March. But, it looks like there may be a lot of new March Quitters this year. Sheesh, at least let the Sox lose one or two regular season games before folding. :smile:

soxtalker
03-13-2007, 09:29 PM
Let's say Danks is looking good enough to make the team at the end of ST. As others have pointed out, it wouldn't hurt for him to get experience in the minors for awhile. There's also the option of bringing him up a little later in the season. While it might be a relatively minor factor, don't the Sox get an extra year before arbitration if they keep Danks in the minors for a couple of months.

kittle42
03-13-2007, 09:38 PM
I can say that. I think only pansied out wusses are giving up at this point. I think Lip is the only one who has ever officially given up on a season in March. But, it looks like there may be a lot of new March Quitters this year. Sheesh, at least let the Sox lose one or two regular season games before folding. :smile:

West, maybe there are some people who are "giving up," but I really doubt it. There is a difference between saying "THE FIFTH STARTER SUX...OMG, WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO OMG OMG!" and saying that one is concerned, based not only on spring training performance but also on Floyd's admittedly limited MLB experience so far, and the youth of Danks, and both for Haeger, and the fact that no one else seems to be an option, that the fifth starter spot may return to the liability it once was. The former is more what you describe as "pansied out wussiness." The latter is a reasoned and valid concern over what, ON PAPER and in ST so far, appears to be a weakness in our favorite team.

Agreed that the people who panic too much over one weakness need to calm down.

Agreed that the people who base ANYTHING on a W/L record in spring training should stop following sports.

Disagree that criticizing and being concerned about the 5th starter spot, CF, Andy Sisco, David Aardsma, or whomever else someone may have a valid concern about base don past performance indicators and present spring performance is wussing out and giving up on the season.

If we only start discussing the positives of our team and hope the sun will come out tomorrow and throw venom at anyone who dare question our team, we are no better than...well, you know.

Daver
03-13-2007, 10:15 PM
West, maybe there are some people who are "giving up," but I really doubt it. There is a difference between saying "THE FIFTH STARTER SUX...OMG, WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO OMG OMG!" and saying that one is concerned, based not only on spring training performance but also on Floyd's admittedly limited MLB experience so far, and the youth of Danks, and both for Haeger, and the fact that no one else seems to be an option, that the fifth starter spot may return to the liability it once was. The former is more what you describe as "pansied out wussiness." The latter is a reasoned and valid concern over what, ON PAPER and in ST so far, appears to be a weakness in our favorite team.

Agreed that the people who panic too much over one weakness need to calm down.

Agreed that the people who base ANYTHING on a W/L record in spring training should stop following sports.

Disagree that criticizing and being concerned about the 5th starter spot, CF, Andy Sisco, David Aardsma, or whomever else someone may have a valid concern about base don past performance indicators and present spring performance is wussing out and giving up on the season.

If we only start discussing the positives of our team and hope the sun will come out tomorrow and throw venom at anyone who dare question our team, we are no better than...well, you know.

How many teams in all of the MLB have better options for a FIFTH starter than the White Sox?

UserNameBlank
03-13-2007, 10:18 PM
I've seen too many young pitchers over the years brought up too early just to get hammered by major league hitters, and were never the same after that.

Obviously I don't know either of these guys personally so this is just an assumption, but everything that I've heard or read regarding Danks says he is battler with a strong mental approach to the game. His numbers in the minors indicate that he figures things out after he struggles and rebounds nicely.

Floyd OTOH has seemed to be the exact opposite. Even though he has big league experience that Danks doesn't, he seems much more fragile mentally than anyone else who was in serious consideration for the 5th when the Sox broke camp. Right now with Gavin, at least in his interviews, his main focus is throwing strikes, attacking hitters, and trying not to think about anything. While Gavin does need to make serious changes from his Philly days, I worry more about him losing confidence in himself after getting lit up again at the major league level, so even though Danks would almost certainly benefit starting the season in Triple A, I think the best for both players and the Sox longterm would be Gavin starting in Charlotte with Danks in Chicago. That is unless Haeger makes a late push and is given the nod, which might be the best scenario for the future of everyone involved.

gobears1987
03-13-2007, 10:24 PM
I'm really liking Danks. I think Ozzie will make him the #5. He really makes the fingernails trade look good.

I never expected Floyd to do anything. He had an ERA of almost 7 in the weak NL. I can't imagine what AL lineups would do to him.

santo=dorf
03-13-2007, 10:26 PM
How many teams in all of the MLB have better options for a FIFTH starter than the White Sox?
Tigers, Indians, Brewers, Phillies, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers, Padres, maybe Athletics, maybe Diamondbacks.

So that's more than a 1/3 of the rest of the league and our two main rivals.

UserNameBlank
03-13-2007, 10:33 PM
How many teams in all of the MLB have better options for a FIFTH starter than the White Sox?

Off the top of my head:
Cleveland, Detroit, maybe Minny with Bonser and Garza - even though Ortiz and Ponson both suck, possibly KC, Oakland, LAAA, the Yankees, maybe Toronto or Milwaukee, AZ, Philly, Boston, maybe even Atlanta as far as short-term, possibly the Mets with Pelfrey even though their rotation sucks, even though I hate to say it maybe the Cubs with Wade Miller, the Dodgers because even though Tomko sucks they have Broxton in the pen...

Actually, most teams have better options for 5th starter right now that the Sox do. Of course, 1-4 with the Sox is the most important part and 1-4 the Sox are better than most of those teams on that list, but all things considered the Sox are weak in that spot until someone steps up and proves themself in the regular season. Danks, Heager, and Floyd all could be that guy, but Haeger is the only guy that is probably ready right here and now. I have a feeling Heath Phillips could get the call later on this year if he picks up where he left off at Charlotte.

PaulDrake
03-13-2007, 10:49 PM
I can say that. I think only pansied out wusses are giving up at this point. I think Lip is the only one who has ever officially given up on a season in March. But, it looks like there may be a lot of new March Quitters this year. Sheesh, at least let the Sox lose one or two regular season games before folding. :smile: Saying that the Sox 5th starter situation looks like horse**** now doesn't make one a pansy or a quitter. You have to play the games and there are always surprises in baseball. I'm sure the 07 season will be no exception. In the meantime it's OK to have an opinion that goes against the grain here, isn't it? The Sox right now don't look to me like they're going to have a viable 5th starter ready.

WhiteSoxFan84
03-14-2007, 03:02 AM
Danks is looking solid. I'm not giving up on Floyd, but I'm now a little upset at the Freddy Garcia trade. I see what Gio Gonzalez is doing (4 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 3 BB, 3 K) and I'm impressed thus far, but if this trade ends up being Garcia for Gonzalez, yikes. At the sametime, I'm now happy about the Brandon McCarthy deal as Danks (9 IP, 7 H, 2 ER, 1 BB, 6K) looks to be a solid fifth starter in 2007. Nick Masset (6.1 IP, 8 H, 6 ER, 3 BB, 3K) is struggling but has a lot of time to improve.

ilsox7
03-14-2007, 03:16 AM
Danks is looking solid. I'm not giving up on Floyd, but I'm now a little upset at the Freddy Garcia trade. I see what Gio Gonzalez is doing (4 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 3 BB, 3 K) and I'm impressed thus far, but if this trade ends up being Garcia for Gonzalez, yikes. At the sametime, I'm now happy about the Brandon McCarthy deal as Danks (9 IP, 7 H, 2 ER, 1 BB, 6K) looks to be a solid fifth starter in 2007. Nick Masset (6.1 IP, 8 H, 6 ER, 3 BB, 3K) is struggling but has a lot of time to improve.

Spring training stats, especially early spring training stats are about the last thing you want to rely on for any type of analysis. Pitchers may be going out there and working on a new pitch. Or may be throwing only fastballs. Or may have one bad outing followed by 3 outings when they are lights out, but the bad outing makes them look bad. Or they may be facing mostly minor league hitters.

If people here did nor did not like the trades this winter there is not much that has happened the last 3 weeks to change your opinion (or at least their shouldn't be). Barely anyone in Chicago has actually seen these guys throw. And those who have seen them throw have seen so few innings. Basically, we are where we were when the trades were made: you either trust KW and the organization's scouting of the players or you don't. A handful of innings under non-regular season conditions should not do much to change that.

HotelWhiteSox
03-14-2007, 04:00 AM
It's asinine to say the Sox have no 5th starter based on a couple of weeks of spring training. Using the same logic we also have no #2, #3, or #4 starter. If it were June 13, he may have a point. But it's not.

No wonder this place implodes after every Sox loss. It's March ****ing 13 and people are already declaring that the Sox have no plausible option for the #5 starter. It amazes me how many folks here love to rip on the Tribune, yet spew the same **** the newspaper does. But somehow the Tribune are misinformed idiots (which most of their writers are) yet dozens of folks make the same exact arguments here that the Tribune does in their rag.


It has nothing to do with spring training stats. It has more to do with going into the season without having one

ilsox7
03-14-2007, 04:12 AM
It has nothing to do with spring training stats. It has more to do with going into the season without having one

So b/c the Sox have a competition for the 5th starter job, that automatically means they are going into the season without a plausible option for the 5th spot?

dcb56
03-14-2007, 04:26 AM
Spring training stats, especially early spring training stats are about the last thing you want to rely on for any type of analysis. Pitchers may be going out there and working on a new pitch. Or may be throwing only fastballs. Or may have one bad outing followed by 3 outings when they are lights out, but the bad outing makes them look bad. Or they may be facing mostly minor league hitters.



Maybe if you're an established veteran you're experimenting with new pitches or new techniques, but these guys are competing for a spot in the big leauges, so to me it seems ludicrous to suggest that some, like Floyd, are struggling simply becuase they are simply "throwing only fastballs" or "working on a new pitch." Based on the inexperience of any of the pitchers competing for the 5th starting spot and the struggles of the most experienced of that bunch this spring training, it's only logical to conclude the White Sox have a gaping hole in the 5th starting slot going into this season.

ilsox7
03-14-2007, 05:04 AM
Maybe if you're an established veteran you're experimenting with new pitches or new techniques, but these guys are competing for a spot in the big leauges, so to me it seems ludicrous to suggest that some, like Floyd, are struggling simply becuase they are simply "throwing only fastballs" or "working on a new pitch." Based on the inexperience of any of the pitchers competing for the 5th starting spot and the struggles of the most experienced of that bunch this spring training, it's only logical to conclude the White Sox have a gaping hole in the 5th starting slot going into this season.

So any team that will be relying on an unproven or young pitcher to be part of its rotation has a gaping hole? If that's the case, then the vast majority of MLB teams have at least one gaping hole in their starting rotation.

It's very possible that Floyd has been working on something different over these past few weeks. In fact, I'd say it's likely. The thing that a lot of people here fail to realize is that the Sox don't fly off the handle when a guy has a "bad" outing or two in spring training. So if Coop went to Floyd a few weeks ago with a list of things to work on, and Floyd has been working on those with the cost being some results, the organization may actually be pleased with him. KW even came out a few days ago and flat-out said he has been extremely encouraged by Floyd thus far. Do I think he will be the 5th starter or have a decent year? I really don't know. But that's b/c I have not seen the guy throw one damn inning all spring (as most here also haven't). Therefore, if all I am left with for my analysis is a box score or KW/Ozzie/Coop's opinion, I am gonna go with KW/Ozzie/Coop on March 13.

We've got 19 days until Opening Day. Over this time, Floyd, Danks, and Haeger will be stretched out, facing MLB hitters for more than an inning or two, and will be in a dogfight for the 5th spot. Why don't we wait and see what happens over those 19 days before we declare that the Sox are ****ed. Who knows, all three might suck. Or Haeger may put up numbers like he did in AAA last year, Danks may continue to get guys out, and Floyd may be more effective. It's just sad that a lot of people seem to be ready to pounce in 19 days with all of their "I told you so" crap. But if one guy separates himself, then we'll hear all of the "Well I am glad I was proved wrong" bull****. Either way, it's irrational.

EDIT: It's funny. For all the folks declaring the Sox doomed b/c Floyd has struggled, so very few are using the same logic they used to come to that conclusion to declare the Sox are just fine b/c Danks and Haeger have put up good numbers thus far this spring.

maurice
03-14-2007, 11:54 AM
How many teams in all of the MLB have better options for a FIFTH starter than the White Sox?

LMAO at some of the answers to this question. Even if you assume that Floyd is a 7 ERA pitcher, very few teams have clearly better #5 options than Danks and Haeger (leaving aside all the "maybes"). Heck, a good number of teams would gladly plug both of them into their MLB rotation.

WhiteSox5187
03-14-2007, 12:31 PM
The fifth spot is obviously still wide open, but coming into spring training it was essentially Gavin Floyd's to lose. And he is losing his grip on it with every outting.

kevin57
03-14-2007, 12:37 PM
The fifth spot is obviously still wide open, but coming into spring training it was essentially Gavin Floyd's to lose. And he is losing his grip on it with every outting.

Amen!

russ99
03-14-2007, 01:11 PM
Maybe next time, they'll flip-flop it. Have Danks start and have Floyd work in relief. Make sure Danks has the opportunity to pitch against somebody's 'A' lineup.

Is Danks (and Haeger, don't forget about him) stretched out enough for that yet?

Also, this kind of competition is pretty much the purpose of Spring Training.

IndianWhiteSox
03-14-2007, 01:16 PM
That would be great if Jon Danks would become a solid #5 starter this year, but then I would be angry as Paul Drake would make me look like a total fool for stating that Gavin Floyd would win 15 games and I wouldn't be able to enjoy every moment of it.

ilsox7
03-14-2007, 05:11 PM
Is Danks (and Haeger, don't forget about him) stretched out enough for that yet?

Also, this kind of competition is pretty much the purpose of Spring Training.

Danks went 3 yesterday and was supposed to go 4, but a Sox rally kept him out b/c they didn't want him going out to the mound after a long half inning. Haeger threw 4 scoreless innings yesterday, but in his 5th gave up a ocuple of runs. So yes, both are being stretched out.

jabrch
03-14-2007, 05:15 PM
Danks went 3 yesterday and was supposed to go 4, but a Sox rally kept him out b/c they didn't want him going out to the mound after a long half inning. Haeger threw 4 scoreless innings yesterday, but in his 5th gave up a ocuple of runs. So yes, both are being stretched out.

I wonder what kind of trade value Haeger will have at the trade deadline assuming he doesn't pitch for us this year and he throws well in the minors?

JB98
03-14-2007, 05:17 PM
How many teams in all of the MLB have better options for a FIFTH starter than the White Sox?


The Cubs. Their rotation has been set in stone since January!

ilsox7
03-14-2007, 05:38 PM
I wonder what kind of trade value Haeger will have at the trade deadline assuming he doesn't pitch for us this year and he throws well in the minors?

I really, really hope we do not trade him. He is what, 23, and people are saying he has the best knuckleball for someone his age maybe ever. He can be so valuable for many years, as he will give you solid numbers out of the back end of the rotation and be able to be a long relief man. Plus, he probably won't end up breaking the bank the way some of the "traditional" pitchers do. I really hope KW holds on to him unless he is blown away by a trade proposal.

santo=dorf
03-14-2007, 06:45 PM
LMAO at some of the answers to this question. Even if you assume that Floyd is a 7 ERA pitcher, very few teams have clearly better #5 options than Danks and Haeger (leaving aside all the "maybes"). Heck, a good number of teams would gladly plug both of them into their MLB rotation.
Yeah, LMAO at Jeremy Sowers, Mike Maroth, Calros Villanueva, Lieber/Eaton, Clement/Papelbon, Colon/Saunders, Chad Billingsley/Tomko/Hendrickson, Tim Stauffer, Joe Kennedy, and Juan Cruz.

I wouldn't be LMAO if the Sox had any or all of these guys as options (like Daver asked) for the fifth starter instead of that current piece of garbage who's getting the royal treatment because he only has one option left and he's taking the place of the guy we traded to acquire him.

Go ahead and tell me with a straight face that Gavin Floyd is a better option than any of the fifth starters I just listed.

LMAO. :rolleyes:

FarWestChicago
03-14-2007, 06:54 PM
Saying that the Sox 5th starter situation looks like horse**** now doesn't make one a pansy or a quitter. You have to play the games and there are always surprises in baseball. I'm sure the 07 season will be no exception. In the meantime it's OK to have an opinion that goes against the grain here, isn't it? The Sox right now don't look to me like they're going to have a viable 5th starter ready.My apologies Paul. I believe you may have outdone Lip. I forgot you gave up on the season when Freddy was traded. What day of the year was that? It's got to be the new record for caving. :D:

UserNameBlank
03-14-2007, 07:02 PM
Yeah, LMAO at Jeremy Sowers, Mike Maroth, Calros Villanueva, Lieber/Eaton, Clement/Papelbon, Colon/Saunders, Chad Billingsley/Tomko/Hendrickson, Tim Stauffer, Joe Kennedy, and Juan Cruz.

I wouldn't be LMAO if the Sox had any or all of these guys as options (like Daver asked) for the fifth starter instead of that current piece of garbage who's getting the royal treatment because he only has one option left and he's taking the place of the guy we traded to acquire him.

Go ahead and tell me with a straight face that Gavin Floyd is a better option than any of the fifth starters I just listed.

LMAO. :rolleyes:
Nice post!

HotelWhiteSox
03-14-2007, 07:03 PM
So b/c the Sox have a competition for the 5th starter job, that automatically means they are going into the season without a plausible option for the 5th spot?


Which goes back to the original post I agreed with, 'just like 04'

ilsox7
03-14-2007, 07:11 PM
Which goes back to the original post I agreed with, 'just like 04'

Isn't a little early to be this drastic though?

FarWestChicago
03-14-2007, 07:27 PM
Isn't a little early to be this drastic though?No, if he gives up now, he won't have to suffer through the season. :redneck

UserNameBlank
03-14-2007, 07:27 PM
Isn't a little early to be this drastic though?

I agree.

The fifth spot could become a revolving door like it was in 2004, but this team is in a much, much better position than that team. Not only are Haeger, Danks, and probably Heath Phillips better than any other option we had in 2004, but KW has some payroll flexibility and the pieces to make a deal.

At this point I don't see Danks losing the fifth starters battle. I think he makes the team, but if he struggles I don't think KW will try out anyone else other than Phillips, Haeger, or maybe Floyd if he shows he can pitch down at Charlotte. If the Sox are in contention by early to mid June and have been having 5th starter issues I think Kenny will make a deal. I don't see him wasting options on anyone else.

gobears1987
03-14-2007, 07:42 PM
I wonder what kind of trade value Haeger will have at the trade deadline assuming he doesn't pitch for us this year and he throws well in the minors?A good knuckleballer is too rare a commodity for us to want to trade him. I think he'll have a place on the major league roster. If he doesn't start, we can use him in the pen.

ChiTownTrojan
03-14-2007, 07:45 PM
Just because the last time we didn't go into a season with 5 veteran SP's we ended up with the "revolving door" situation, it doesn't mean it will happen to this team, this year. 2004 was a bad year because there wasn't very much SP talent in the farm system at the time. This year is a completely different story.

I think the cynics in the bunch are thinking with limited memories and only remember the last 5 years or so of White Sox baseball. When we had 5 veteran starters, we won 90+ games, when we didn't have that luxery, we didn't do as well. This was just one factor in our success, not the only reason for it. Very few teams go into the year with 5 established starters. Look around the league, you could probably count those teams on one hand.

Hitmen77
03-14-2007, 08:29 PM
Yeah, LMAO at Jeremy Sowers, Mike Maroth, Calros Villanueva, Lieber/Eaton, Clement/Papelbon, Colon/Saunders, Chad Billingsley/Tomko/Hendrickson, Tim Stauffer, Joe Kennedy, and Juan Cruz.

I wouldn't be LMAO if the Sox had any or all of these guys as options (like Daver asked) for the fifth starter instead of that current piece of garbage who's getting the royal treatment because he only has one option left and he's taking the place of the guy we traded to acquire him.

Go ahead and tell me with a straight face that Gavin Floyd is a better option than any of the fifth starters I just listed.

LMAO. :rolleyes:

Nice post!

Yes, nice post! Here's your prize:
http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/apple.media/thumb/200/200/white_flag.jpg

I don't know about you guys, but I'll wait until at least until the season starts before I write off Floyd, Danks, and Haegar as "garbage".

champagne030
03-14-2007, 08:51 PM
Yes, nice post! Here's your prize:
http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/apple.media/thumb/200/200/white_flag.jpg

I don't know about you guys, but I'll wait until at least until the season starts before I write off Floyd, Danks, and Haegar as "garbage".

The post you're taking issue with only said Floyd is "garbage". Nothing about Danks or Haeger "being anointed our version of the messiah".

santo=dorf
03-14-2007, 09:01 PM
Yes, nice post! Here's your prize:
http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/apple.media/thumb/200/200/white_flag.jpg

I don't know about you guys, but I'll wait until at least until the season starts before I write off Floyd, Danks, and Haegar as "garbage".
My post was specifically direct towards Floyd, not Danks or Haeger.

I have been campaigning for Haeger to be on the 2007 roster since last September, and I've already shown support for Danks as the fifth starter (Danks has a posse.)

So here's your prize for completely misreading my post and twisting my point.
http://www.maximumeyewear.com/productfolder/sunglasses-specifically/reading-glasses.jpg

drewcifer
03-14-2007, 09:25 PM
My wife and I got a chance to talk to Coop directly for about 5 minutes when he was supervising Buehrle this past Saturday. Very nice guy; blew us off a few times when he was working, but still came back and talked to us and answered some questions...

My take - He likes Floyd. He really does. He likes his movement, his size, his mechanics. He's MADE him throw a bunch of **** out there to see what he can do to deal with things (a pitch not working, fatigue, soreness, tipping, etc.). He actually makes him omit certain pitches too, he didn't even mind telling US - who are nobody's that he only knew came along way to see his guys when we he was nice enough to talk to us a little and answer our dumb questions.

He knows what the hell he's doing, and he sees something in him. Forget what you see on paper for now - Time will only tell.

I'll put some pics up in the gallery later for you guys to check out...the wife was Mrs. Johnny on the spot! :cool:

UserNameBlank
03-14-2007, 09:27 PM
My post was specifically direct towards Floyd, not Danks or Haeger.

I have been campaigning for Haeger to be on the 2007 roster since last September, and I've already shown support for Danks as the fifth starter (Danks has a posse.)

So here's your prize for completely misreading my post and twisting my point.
http://www.maximumeyewear.com/productfolder/sunglasses-specifically/reading-glasses.jpg
Again, nice post.

I want Danks to succeed but I think the general opinion is that he would be better off with a little more time in Triple A. I'm strongly against the "Haeger For Pen in '07" campaign but I do think as a starter he could at least be a .500 pitcher, which would be good enough if the first four of our rotation pitch like they are capable of.

I know it's only ST, and people either overrate or underrate performances in spring, but Gavin has not put up the numbers to show that he is a better option than Danks. He also hasn't attacked hitters like Danks has. I'm glad Gavin has changed his mental approach - or at least so he says - but the whole "don't think, just throw strikes" thing isn't going to work unless he gets his curve over. He doesn't have a dominating fastball and will get absolutely rocked in the Cell, especially when he leaves it up in the zone. I'm not totally down on Floyd and I trust KW more than the stat sheets, but everything that has happened over the last 2 or 3 years regarding Gavin has pointed to him needing more than just a few Spring Training starts to become a viable option for the Sox staff in the AL Central, even as a fifth starter.

Having blind confidence in someone like Gavin is one thing, but insinuating that a fan is on the edge or about to wave the white flag just because he doesn't expect a freaking miracle out of an almost non-prospect is another.

White_Sock
03-14-2007, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by santo=dorf
I have been campaigning for Haeger to be on the 2007 roster since last September, and I've already shown support for Danks as the fifth starter (Danks has a posse.)

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/signaturepics/sigpic498_2.gif

Dis posse you speak of is colled da "dudes for Danks!" ANT I AM DA GOVERNOR OF DEM ARHGHGARGHGAAGHAGAHAGAHG!

santo=dorf
03-14-2007, 09:50 PM
Had Mark Prior, or Angel Guzman or some other Cub stiff pitched like Floyd the other day, and the Tribune article summarizing the outing was full of excuses like blaming the defense and the number of "A" players in the lineup, and making claims like "for those of you who think this is a big deal, just remember the season hasn't started yet," McGrath, Sullivan and just about anybody else at the Trib would've been rip to shreds for putting a ton of positive spin and serving up the kool-aid to all the fans.

Yet if a Sox fan makes a negative remark on a piss-poor outing, he or she is throwing in the towel. How does that work? :?:

FarWestChicago
03-14-2007, 09:55 PM
Yet if a Sox fan makes a negative remark on a piss-poor outing, he or she is throwing in the towel. How does that work? :?:Every season we have a contest to see who can quit on the Sox first. And we have other fine traditions around here:

:chickenlittle

:darkcloud:

:darkclouds:

When you paint on that canvas, you need to do something to differentiate yourself from the quitters. :wink:

whitesoxfan1986
03-14-2007, 10:03 PM
I am for giving Floyd a chance to show us what he can do in the majors. Philly did with him what Ozzie is doing with BA. Phillly gave Floyd 4 starts in 2005 and 11 last year to prove himself at the major league level before shipping him to AAA. That is 15 starts at the major league level and a September callup to prove himself. IMO, that's no way to bring along your top prospect. Danks has been impressive this spring, but I think he could use a whole season at AAA. We want to be sure he is 100% ready when we bring him up. In the same regard, sending BA to AAA is asinine. Kenny wants to gradually bring along some young, cheap players. If Ozzie is going to be so ****ing stubborn about not giving the young talent a viable shot to prove that they can play, then Kenny needs to smack some sense into him Chuck Norris style. If BA gets traded, then, even though I like Javy, trading Chris Young was a collossal mistake because we have no minor leaguer that we can give a shot to replace him, and we'll be forced to overpay on the FA market.

White_Sock
03-14-2007, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by I want Mag's Bag
looks like 04 all over again, with no 5th at all

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/signaturepics/sigpic498_2.gif
STOP IT! You are hurting my brain like my Hummer hurts Arianna Huffington's tax plan! YOU LACK DISCIPLINE!

Jjav829
03-14-2007, 10:28 PM
I am for giving Floyd a chance to show us what he can do in the majors. Philly did with him what Ozzie is doing with BA. Phillly gave Floyd 4 starts in 2005 and 11 last year to prove himself at the major league level before shipping him to AAA. That is 15 starts at the major league level and a September callup to prove himself. IMO, that's no way to bring along your top prospect. Danks has been impressive this spring, but I think he could use a whole season at AAA. We want to be sure he is 100% ready when we bring him up. In the same regard, sending BA to AAA is asinine. Kenny wants to gradually bring along some young, cheap players. If Ozzie is going to be so ****ing stubborn about not giving the young talent a viable shot to prove that they can play, then Kenny needs to smack some sense into him Chuck Norris style. If BA gets traded, then, even though I like Javy, trading Chris Young was a collossal mistake because we have no minor leaguer that we can give a shot to replace him, and we'll be forced to overpay on the FA market.

Floyd was not the Phillies top prospect. The major difference between the players you are comparing is that BA had at least put together a solid minor league season in 2005. Floyd hasn't had any kind of track record of consistent success. He dominated in A ball and AA. Then he got bumped up to AAA in 2004 and struggled. The Phillies called Floyd up later that year. He struggled a bit with his command, but he got some outs. His ERA wasn't bad, but his peripherals were awful. Floyd began 2005 in AAA and was brutal, posting a 6+ ERA. Philly gave him another chance in the majors, and he impressed by posting an even worse 10.04 ERA. He started 2006 in AAA again, and he was solid, though unspectacular. Philly called Floyd up again and he was awful yet again. The last time Floyd had any consistent success was in AA during the 2004 season.

Frater Perdurabo
03-14-2007, 10:55 PM
Every season we have a contest to see who can quit on the Sox first. And we have other fine traditions around here:

:chickenlittle

:darkcloud:

:darkclouds:

When you paint on that canvas, you need to do something to differentiate yourself from the quitters. :wink:

You forgot one:

:whoflungpoo

This one is good, too, if it refers to those who get worked up over nothing:

:kermit

:D:

beckett21
03-14-2007, 10:59 PM
Floyd was not the Phillies top prospect. The major difference between the players you are comparing is that BA had at least put together a solid minor league season in 2005. Floyd hasn't had any kind of track record of consistent success. He dominated in A ball and AA. Then he got bumped up to AAA in 2004 and struggled. The Phillies called Floyd up later that year. He struggled a bit with his command, but he got some outs. His ERA wasn't bad, but his peripherals were awful. Floyd began 2005 in AAA and was brutal, posting a 6+ ERA. Philly gave him another chance in the majors, and he impressed by posting an even worse 10.04 ERA. He started 2006 in AAA again, and he was solid, though unspectacular. Philly called Floyd up again and he was awful yet again. The last time Floyd had any consistent success was in AA during the 2004 season.

Details, details...:D:

whitesoxfan1986
03-14-2007, 11:13 PM
Floyd was not the Phillies top prospect. The major difference between the players you are comparing is that BA had at least put together a solid minor league season in 2005. Floyd hasn't had any kind of track record of consistent success. He dominated in A ball and AA. Then he got bumped up to AAA in 2004 and struggled. The Phillies called Floyd up later that year. He struggled a bit with his command, but he got some outs. His ERA wasn't bad, but his peripherals were awful. Floyd began 2005 in AAA and was brutal, posting a 6+ ERA. Philly gave him another chance in the majors, and he impressed by posting an even worse 10.04 ERA. He started 2006 in AAA again, and he was solid, though unspectacular. Philly called Floyd up again and he was awful yet again. The last time Floyd had any consistent success was in AA during the 2004 season.
I didn't know that he started in AAA and sucked in 2005. Floyd was still highly regarded by Baseball America in 2005 and only Ryan Howard was ahead of him in the Phillies org. on their top 100 list, and that is what I am going by for the top prospect status. So then he wasn't their top overall prospect but he was their top pitching prospect. Still, 19 starts does not a career make. If they thought he had become a non-prospect, then they wouldn't have given him so many shots at the major league level and would have taken him off their 40-man roster or left him available for the rule 5 draft, right? So obviously the talent is there, and there is still hope for major league success.
Maybe I made the wrong comparison in regards to AAA performance, but the point I was trying to make was that Philly didn't give Floyd a realistic shot to try to work his **** out at the major league level, and that we shouldn't make the same mistake with BA.

kittle42
03-15-2007, 12:07 AM
West, if i say the Sox have any apparent weakness at all before one pitch of the official 2007 season is in the books, am I quitting on the season? If I was a fan on *any* team and worried they had a weakness in ST, would I be quitting on their season? Just want to clarify the ground rules here.

Hitmen77
03-15-2007, 08:04 AM
My post was specifically direct towards Floyd, not Danks or Haeger.

I have been campaigning for Haeger to be on the 2007 roster since last September, and I've already shown support for Danks as the fifth starter (Danks has a posse.)

So here's your prize for completely misreading my post and twisting my point.
http://www.maximumeyewear.com/productfolder/sunglasses-specifically/reading-glasses.jpg

Hey, thanks for the dark-cloud glasses! I love prizes :smile: Now I understand completely! I realize now that the Sox ending up with a decent 5th starter among the 3 main candidates (even if it isn't Floyd) isn't what matters. What matters is that Gavin Floyd hasn't looked so great as of March 14.

Before I admittedly had concerns about our 5th starter, but I was also foolishly being cautiously optimistic that one of the 3 will actually do well as our 5th starter this year. I was going to wait until April 7 to see how our 5th starter performs when it counts. I was also going to wait beyond spring training '07 to see how Floyd and Gio turn out in regards to that trade. But, you right, I'll start complaining about the Garcia trade and our 5th starter problem now.

Hitmen77
03-15-2007, 08:29 AM
West, if i say the Sox have any apparent weakness at all before one pitch of the official 2007 season is in the books, am I quitting on the season? If I was a fan on *any* team and worried they had a weakness in ST, would I be quitting on their season? Just want to clarify the ground rules here.

I think this is a good question and actually would like to hear what the mods thoughts are on this.

I think you are right that a frank discussion about Sox strengths and weaknesses make this site great. If everything is just sugar-coated and only positive, then I feel like I'm just hearing the company line and just fooling ourselves.

However, IMO, there are true dark clouds here that don't want to even give Erstad, Anderson, Danks, etc. a chance and some have already said the Sox have no chance of winning the division this year.

Are there concerns? Yes. I for one am concerned that Buehrle and Contreras won't rebound from a poor '06. But, I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. Relax, it's only March. :smile:

PaulDrake
03-15-2007, 09:36 AM
My apologies Paul. I believe you may have outdone Lip. I forgot you gave up on the season when Freddy was traded. What day of the year was that? It's got to be the new record for caving. :D: I hate the Freddy trade. I will be very surprised if Floyd turns out to be anything but a stiff. I'm cautiously optimistic about KWs other moves and wish the season started today. As long as I'm a member here, I'll never be part of the "amen" corner. Hope it doesn't hurt my Q rating too much. :D:

PaulDrake
03-15-2007, 09:52 AM
My post was specifically direct towards Floyd, not Danks or Haeger. Me too. I think Floyd is the stiffest of stiffs. Of course he's welcome to prove me wrong. I'm hopeful that Danks and/or Haeger will eventually be decent starters. I'm just not sure it's this year. For that I'm called a quitter. If I respond in kind, I may get banned. No one who stuck with this team in the mostly dark years from 68-80, and the very forgettable late 80s and late 90s should be labeled a quitter. No one. I feel like I'm back in 9th grade at Senn High School doing my best to defend myself from the big bad bullies.

champagne030
03-15-2007, 11:19 AM
Every season we have a contest to see who can quit on the Sox first. And we have other fine traditions around here:

:chickenlittle

:darkcloud:

:darkclouds:

When you paint on that canvas, you need to do something to differentiate yourself from the quitters. :wink:

Here's another tradition that we see a lot around here:

http://homepage.mac.com/kaaawa/iblog/C627146904/E20060704130333/Media/pollyanna-poster3.jpg

Don't worry, drink some Kool-Aid and be happy.....:D:

jabrch
03-15-2007, 11:32 AM
West, if i say the Sox have any apparent weakness at all before one pitch of the official 2007 season is in the books, am I quitting on the season? If I was a fan on *any* team and worried they had a weakness in ST, would I be quitting on their season? Just want to clarify the ground rules here.

Kittle - I know you weren't addressing me, but I'll throw my 2 cents in - isn't there a difference between saying the team has a weakness, and declaring that player X has absolutely no chance of being effective in that role, when there is ample evidence that whomever that player is, he has at least a decent chance, and that we actually have depth at any of these positions that are questions.

You aren't quitting if you say we have a questionable 5th starter - but if all you do is bitch about BA/Erstad, Floyd/Danks, etc, then that is quitting.

spiffie
03-15-2007, 11:55 AM
Floyd was not the Phillies top prospect. The major difference between the players you are comparing is that BA had at least put together a solid minor league season in 2005. Floyd hasn't had any kind of track record of consistent success. He dominated in A ball and AA. Then he got bumped up to AAA in 2004 and struggled. The Phillies called Floyd up later that year. He struggled a bit with his command, but he got some outs. His ERA wasn't bad, but his peripherals were awful. Floyd began 2005 in AAA and was brutal, posting a 6+ ERA. Philly gave him another chance in the majors, and he impressed by posting an even worse 10.04 ERA. He started 2006 in AAA again, and he was solid, though unspectacular. Philly called Floyd up again and he was awful yet again. The last time Floyd had any consistent success was in AA during the 2004 season.

Every season we have a contest to see who can quit on the Sox first. And we have other fine traditions around here:

:chickenlittle

:darkcloud:

:darkclouds:

I can't put it any better than West already did.

Jjav829
03-15-2007, 12:54 PM
I can't put it any better than West already did.

Haha, give me a break. This from the guy who thinks the Sox have clearly the best starting rotation in baseball and the best outfield in baseball.

Now I remember why I went about two months without making a post in the Clubhouse or even reading it. The color scheme isn't the only thing that's black and white around here.

So, just to get this straight, I'm a "dark cloud" because I think Gavin Floyd is a bad pitcher, based largely on the fact that he hasn't done jack-**** in 3 years. Oh, but he was a former 1st round pick! Let's bring in Matt Anderson, Jason Stumm, Jason Grilli, Ryan Anderson, Kurt Ainsworth, Ben Christensen, Dewon Brazelton (Hey, he was drafted a pick before Floyd! He must be even better!), Colt Griffin, and so on.

Your post is even more ridiculous because I think John Danks is going to be a very good pitcher, possibly even this year.

maurice
03-15-2007, 04:21 PM
Go ahead and tell me with a straight face that Gavin Floyd is a better option than any of the fifth starters I just listed.

Re-read the relevant posts and recognize:
(1) I said "assum that Floyd is a 7 ERA pitcher," and just looking at Danks and Haeger
(2) Somebody [I]other than you replied to Daver's question

Or, as you would say:
Here's your prize for completely misreading my post and twisting my point.
http://www.maximumeyewear.com/productfolder/sunglasses-specifically/reading-glasses.jpg

:rolleyes: <-- indeed.

FarWestChicago
03-15-2007, 05:35 PM
West, if i say the Sox have any apparent weakness at all before one pitch of the official 2007 season is in the books, am I quitting on the season? If I was a fan on *any* team and worried they had a weakness in ST, would I be quitting on their season? Just want to clarify the ground rules here.LOL, you guys are so friggin' serious. It's ST. I'm just messing with the Clouds a little. I let them run wild last year. I'll do the same this year. The only time I've consistently battled our depressed brethren was 2005. And we know what happened that year. :cool:

FarWestChicago
03-15-2007, 05:37 PM
I hate the Freddy trade. I will be very surprised if Floyd turns out to be anything but a stiff. I'm cautiously optimistic about KWs other moves and wish the season started today. As long as I'm a member here, I'll never be part of the "amen" corner. Hope it doesn't hurt my Q rating too much. :D:Again, I'm just messing with you. I've been impressed with how ballistic you went over that trade. And you have earned major style points for sticking to your opinion and working it into many unrelated threads. :D:

FarWestChicago
03-15-2007, 05:39 PM
Don't worry, drink some Kool-Aid and be happy.....:D:This from a guy who publicly admitted he's only been happy one day in his life. Carry on with your depression. :smile:

champagne030
03-15-2007, 06:29 PM
This from a guy who publicly admitted he's only been happy one day in his life. Carry on with your depression. :smile:

Au contraire monfrair, you left out the best part.......

"when people do and say dumb things".

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1505211#post1505211

The idea of believing that KW is our GM, Coop's the pitching coach, Ozzie's the manager and Floyd is a #1 pick are the reasons our #5 starter must a a beacon of sunshine is a lot like the sheep on the other side of town. :cool:

FarWestChicago
03-15-2007, 07:15 PM
Au contraire monfrair, you left out the best part.......

"when people do and say dumb things".

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1505211#post1505211

The idea of believing that KW is our GM, Coop's the pitching coach, Ozzie's the manager and Floyd is a #1 pick are the reasons our #5 starter must a a beacon of sunshine is a lot like the sheep on the other side of town. :cool:I was completely accurate. There is no day when people don't do and say dumb things. So, you have only been happy for one day in your life. I'm sorry. If that isn't the definition of a depressed or negative person, I don't know what is. :dunno:

A. Cavatica
03-15-2007, 08:31 PM
Danks has looked like a better prospect than Floyd for a few years now, and I'm excited that he's pitching well this spring. At the moment my preference for fifth starter goes 1) Danks, 2) Haeger, 3) Phillips.

Don't get me wrong, if Coop and KW are right and Floyd can turn it around, I'll be cheering the guy. But his career arc looks a lot like Borchard's.

PaulDrake
03-15-2007, 08:34 PM
Danks has looked like a better prospect than Floyd for a few years now, and I'm excited that he's pitching well this spring. At the moment my preference for fifth starter goes 1) Danks, 2) Haeger, 3) Phillips.

Don't get me wrong, if Coop and KW are right and Floyd can turn it around, I'll be cheering the guy. But his career arc looks a lot like Borchard's. I couldn't agree more with everything you said.

ShoelessJoeS
03-15-2007, 08:38 PM
Danks has looked like a better prospect than Floyd for a few years now, and I'm excited that he's pitching well this spring. At the moment my preference for fifth starter goes 1) Danks, 2) Haeger, 3) Phillips.

Don't get me wrong, if Coop and KW are right and Floyd can turn it around, I'll be cheering the guy. But his career arc looks a lot like Borchard's.Didn't Phillips just get optioned to AA or AAA today, meaning he won't be breaking camp on the 25-man and thus having no shot at being the 5th starter?

A. Cavatica
03-15-2007, 08:39 PM
I couldn't agree more with everything you said.

Thanks -- but agreeing with me is usually asking for a whippin' around here. :D:

KyWhiSoxFan
03-15-2007, 08:58 PM
Didn't Phillips just get optioned to AA or AAA today, meaning he won't be breaking camp on the 25-man and thus having no shot at being the 5th starter?

Phillips got optioned. My preference is Haeger as the fifth starter. I've liked him a lot since last year. Danks will eventually pass Haeger as to place in a rotation, but I think he needs a little more time in the minors. Maybe by midyear he may be ready. For April, though, I'd go with Haeger and have Floyd long in the pen.

russ99
03-16-2007, 09:09 AM
Phillips got optioned. My preference is Haeger as the fifth starter. I've liked him a lot since last year. Danks will eventually pass Haeger as to place in a rotation, but I think he needs a little more time in the minors. Maybe by midyear he may be ready. For April, though, I'd go with Haeger and have Floyd long in the pen.

Danks has the highest upside, and it he's ready for the majors now, especially mentally, which seems to be the difference between him and Floyd - by all means give the kid a shot.

Haeger could be lights-out deadly with that knuckler in the bullpen, with all the fastball pitchers out there, and can be a backup starter in case Danks falters.

Floyd - not so sure what the Sox can do with him. They did trade Garcia for him, so the brass is under some pressure to get him to the majors, despite his poor showing last season and this spring. Not sure if he's cut out for the bullpen, or how much AAA can really advance him at this point.

Jaffar
03-16-2007, 11:06 AM
At least we'll get to see Danks start on saturday.

CLR01
03-16-2007, 11:24 AM
At least we'll get to see Danks start on saturday.


Sunday vs the Padres.

Lprof
03-18-2007, 04:54 PM
Danks has looked like a better prospect than Floyd for a few years now, and I'm excited that he's pitching well this spring. At the moment my preference for fifth starter goes 1) Danks, 2) Haeger, 3) Phillips.

Don't get me wrong, if Coop and KW are right and Floyd can turn it around, I'll be cheering the guy. But his career arc looks a lot like Borchard's.

And Danks gets smacked around pretty good today, once through the lineup. The kid is 21 and even his strongest supporters didn't suggest he would be ready this year. Floyd looks like a total bust (which maybe a 7 ERA in the majors could have predicted?). Face it: What some of us said during the winter may be coming true; we HAVE no fifth starter. We HAD two of them (and Garcia was, at worst the THIRD starter); now we have none. And in return it's not clear we got much, if anything, that will help us this year (Massett seems to be the possible exception, though the jury is still out; of course Danks could help later in the year, but that is pure speculation).

Does that mean I am giving up on the season? Of course not. But anyone who says, "Hey, it's just ST" is kidding himself. None of them looks ready, and in the case of two of them, it is by no means clear that they will ever be major leagurers; so at what point do you get worried, and at what point do you say that, AT LEAST FOR 2007, it's not clear what KW was thinking?

itsnotrequired
03-18-2007, 05:36 PM
Does that mean I am giving up on the season? Of course not. But anyone who says, "Hey, it's just ST" is kidding himself. None of them looks ready, and in the case of two of them, it is by no means clear that they will ever be major leagurers; so at what point do you get worried, and at what point do you say that, AT LEAST FOR 2007, it's not clear what KW was thinking?

So what? Coming into today, Vazquez, Buehrle and Garland all have ERAs higher than Danks or Floyd. In the case of Danks, Contreras is higher as well.

dcb56
03-18-2007, 06:17 PM
So what? Coming into today, Vazquez, Buehrle and Garland all have ERAs higher than Danks or Floyd. In the case of Danks, Contreras is higher as well.

True, but Vazquez, Buehrle, Garland, and Contreras are all established veterans with extensive bodies of work at the Major League level, it's to be expected their performance will improve greatly once the season begins. Floyd, OTOH, has a career 7 ERA and has looked completely lost at times this spring, and Danks, while his performance has been impressive thus far (at least until today), has yet to throw a pitch in the big leauges let alone notch his first win. Freddy Garcia threw 217 innings last year and won 17 games. That is an awful lot of production that needs to be replaced no matter how you slice it and I fail to see how it's unreasonable to be concerned about it when the guys expected to fill that spot have very little experience with no record of success at the Major League level.

spiffie
03-18-2007, 06:22 PM
And Danks gets smacked around pretty good today, once through the lineup. The kid is 21 and even his strongest supporters didn't suggest he would be ready this year. Floyd looks like a total bust (which maybe a 7 ERA in the majors could have predicted?). Face it: What some of us said during the winter may be coming true; we HAVE no fifth starter. We HAD two of them (and Garcia was, at worst the THIRD starter); now we have none. And in return it's not clear we got much, if anything, that will help us this year (Massett seems to be the possible exception, though the jury is still out; of course Danks could help later in the year, but that is pure speculation).

Does that mean I am giving up on the season? Of course not. But anyone who says, "Hey, it's just ST" is kidding himself. None of them looks ready, and in the case of two of them, it is by no means clear that they will ever be major leagurers; so at what point do you get worried, and at what point do you say that, AT LEAST FOR 2007, it's not clear what KW was thinking?
It's March 18th. We have no idea what these people will do in 2007. As for Danks, unless you hang out in the locker room, you have no idea what Danks might have been sent out there instructed to do today. How do we know he wasn't told to try working only a certain part of the plate, or certain pitches, or something like that?

MarySwiss
03-18-2007, 06:26 PM
True, but Vazquez, Buehrle, Garland, and Contreras are all established veterans with extensive bodies of work at the Major League level, it's to be expected their performance will improve greatly once the season begins. Floyd, OTOH, has a career 7 ERA and has looked completely lost at times this spring, and Danks, while his performance has been impressive thus far (at least until today), has yet to throw a pitch in the big leauges let alone notch his first win. Freddy Garcia threw 217 innings last year and won 17 games. That is an awful lot of production that needs to be replaced no matter how you slice it and I fail to see how it's unreasonable to be concerned about it when the guys expected to fill that spot have very little experience with no record of success at the Major League level.

And if they were tearing up Spring Training, that bolded statement would still be true. Which is why I for one refuse to place too much credence on what happens in Spring Training.

Yesterday at the game, there was some guy standing next to me who has pretty much given up on this season, based on what's happened so far. Yet he thought that all the other teams in the AL Central--including KC--had a legitimate chance. I prefer to wait and see.

ilsox7
03-18-2007, 06:43 PM
Yesterday at the game, there was some guy standing next to me who has pretty much given up on this season, based on what's happened so far. Yet he thought that all the other teams in the AL Central--including KC--had a legitimate chance. I prefer to wait and see.

You were standing next to an idiot.

Frater Perdurabo
03-18-2007, 06:44 PM
What? No tomato?

:tomatoaward

Frontman
03-18-2007, 07:04 PM
You were standing next to an idiot.

I second the "Next to an idiot" call.

itsnotrequired
03-18-2007, 07:23 PM
True, but Vazquez, Buehrle, Garland, and Contreras are all established veterans with extensive bodies of work at the Major League level, it's to be expected their performance will improve greatly once the season begins. Floyd, OTOH, has a career 7 ERA and has looked completely lost at times this spring, and Danks, while his performance has been impressive thus far (at least until today), has yet to throw a pitch in the big leauges let alone notch his first win. Freddy Garcia threw 217 innings last year and won 17 games. That is an awful lot of production that needs to be replaced no matter how you slice it and I fail to see how it's unreasonable to be concerned about it when the guys expected to fill that spot have very little experience with no record of success at the Major League level.

So the "Hey, its just ST" idea applies to vetrans but not rookies?

I stand by my earlier statement.

ShoelessJoeS
03-18-2007, 07:59 PM
And if they were tearing up Spring Training, that bolded statement would still be true. Which is why I for one refuse to place too much credence on what happens in Spring Training.

Yesterday at the game, there was some guy standing next to me who has pretty much given up on this season, based on what's happened so far. Yet he thought that all the other teams in the AL Central--including KC--had a legitimate chance. I prefer to wait and see.Homefish was at the game?

:tongue:

HotelWhiteSox
03-18-2007, 08:32 PM
So the "Hey, its just ST" idea applies to vetrans but not rookies?

I stand by my earlier statement.

It's definately different. A guy who has the team made is pretty much going through the motions, getting in shape/working on their arm strength, and isn't going to show things to a team they'll face in the regular season. The guy fighting for the spot doesn't have that leeway and has to give it all he's got. Either way, I hate ST stats, good or bad, they're irrelevant, I'm sure the coaches have seen it enough to look at more than those stats, but then again Boone Logan last year :\ (though we were kind of desparate)

CubsfansareDRUNK
03-18-2007, 08:40 PM
Danks has looked like a better prospect than Floyd for a few years now, and I'm excited that he's pitching well this spring. At the moment my preference for fifth starter goes 1) Danks, 2) Haeger, 3) Phillips.

Don't get me wrong, if Coop and KW are right and Floyd can turn it around, I'll be cheering the guy. But his career arc looks a lot like Borchard's.

Ahahaha. I love how you deeppink'ed Floyd

itsnotrequired
03-18-2007, 10:02 PM
It's definately different. A guy who has the team made is pretty much going through the motions, getting in shape/working on their arm strength, and isn't going to show things to a team they'll face in the regular season. The guy fighting for the spot doesn't have that leeway and has to give it all he's got. Either way, I hate ST stats, good or bad, they're irrelevant, I'm sure the coaches have seen it enough to look at more than those stats, but then again Boone Logan last year :\ (though we were kind of desparate)

The key statement. I'm actually more concerned with Buehrle's struggles than Danks' or Floyd's.

ilsox7
03-18-2007, 10:09 PM
The key statement. I'm actually more concerned with Buehrle's struggles than Danks' or Floyd's.

Exactly. Mark Buehrle's pitching this year is one of the top two or three keys to this team's success. More important than the #5 starter.

dcb56
03-19-2007, 04:10 AM
So the "Hey, its just ST" idea applies to vetrans but not rookies?

I stand by my earlier statement.

That's not what I said. Again, the guys we have competing for the 5th spot have little to no experience in the big leagues and are going to have to fill a spot that produced 217 innings worth of work and 17 wins last season. How/why do you think these guys will be able to fill this void? The thought of going into this season with an '04 style 5th starter carousel sure as heck concerns me...

Mohoney
03-19-2007, 06:58 AM
True, but Vazquez, Buehrle, Garland, and Contreras are all established veterans with extensive bodies of work at the Major League level, it's to be expected their performance will improve greatly once the season begins. Floyd, OTOH, has a career 7 ERA and has looked completely lost at times this spring, and Danks, while his performance has been impressive thus far (at least until today), has yet to throw a pitch in the big leauges let alone notch his first win. Freddy Garcia threw 217 innings last year and won 17 games. That is an awful lot of production that needs to be replaced no matter how you slice it and I fail to see how it's unreasonable to be concerned about it when the guys expected to fill that spot have very little experience with no record of success at the Major League level.

An over .500 Buehrle goes a long way in making up that lost production. If Buehrle makes up at least 4 games by himself, it's only 13 wins that we need to make up, and that's very doable.

itsnotrequired
03-19-2007, 07:04 AM
That's not what I said. Again, the guys we have competing for the 5th spot have little to no experience in the big leagues and are going to have to fill a spot that produced 217 innings worth of work and 17 wins last season. How/why do you think these guys will be able to fill this void? The thought of going into this season with an '04 style 5th starter carousel sure as heck concerns me...

I didn't mean to imply that I wasn't concerned about the 5th starter spot. Rather, I'm not going to look at a couple bad outings by Danks or Floyd in ST and throw in the towel on the 5th starter in 2007 or believe it will be some type of 2004 situation. I'm not saying you feel that way but many posters here do.

Lprof
03-19-2007, 08:33 AM
It's March 18th. We have no idea what these people will do in 2007. As for Danks, unless you hang out in the locker room, you have no idea what Danks might have been sent out there instructed to do today. How do we know he wasn't told to try working only a certain part of the plate, or certain pitches, or something like that?

You are, of course, correct; I don't know what he was told to do. I am pretty sure, however, he was told not to give up 6 runs in 4 innings. Come on; he is in a competition for the fifth starter spot, not a veteran trying to work on pitches. He is out there to do his best. As for those who say it is just spring training, I guess I was worried before spring training, and nothing that has happened there has made me (1) feel better about the fifth spot, or (2) understand KW's trades, to the extent he wasn't giving up on 2007. Can things work out? Sure. But I guess my question would be, at what point DO you get worried? When the season is over? Just tell me an appropriate marking point when we can say either "SEE? YOU WERE WORRIED ABOUT NOTHING!" or "holy ----; we don't have a fifth starter."

spiffie
03-19-2007, 11:08 AM
You are, of course, correct; I don't know what he was told to do. I am pretty sure, however, he was told not to give up 6 runs in 4 innings. Come on; he is in a competition for the fifth starter spot, not a veteran trying to work on pitches. He is out there to do his best. As for those who say it is just spring training, I guess I was worried before spring training, and nothing that has happened there has made me (1) feel better about the fifth spot, or (2) understand KW's trades, to the extent he wasn't giving up on 2007. Can things work out? Sure. But I guess my question would be, at what point DO you get worried? When the season is over? Just tell me an appropriate marking point when we can say either "SEE? YOU WERE WORRIED ABOUT NOTHING!" or "holy ----; we don't have a fifth starter."
Re: Danks, even though he isn't a vet doesn't mean he wasn't given something specific to think about which might have hindered him. Maybe Cooper told him to try a slightly different release point or arm angle, or throwing a pitch differently, which turned out not to work. If anything it seems more likely with Danks since he's shown himself in the first few starts, now would be a time for Cooper to work on refining things he's noticed.

As for when to make a judgement...yes, when the season is over. I don't really know when else you can examine what happened in a season. I suppose September you have a pretty good handle. But before that is pretty much not going to give you a full picture. Look at the Sox 3 months into the season last year. They looked like the best team in baseball. They sure weren't when the year ended though. And the Twins were going to be lucky to get to .500.

People, especially those who have negative feelings, are always in a rush to be vindicated about their judgments. Just let it play out, and trust that the Sox know what they're doing.

Lprof
03-19-2007, 07:04 PM
Re: Danks, even though he isn't a vet doesn't mean he wasn't given something specific to think about which might have hindered him. Maybe Cooper told him to try a slightly different release point or arm angle, or throwing a pitch differently, which turned out not to work. If anything it seems more likely with Danks since he's shown himself in the first few starts, now would be a time for Cooper to work on refining things he's noticed.

As for when to make a judgement...yes, when the season is over. I don't really know when else you can examine what happened in a season. I suppose September you have a pretty good handle. But before that is pretty much not going to give you a full picture. Look at the Sox 3 months into the season last year. They looked like the best team in baseball. They sure weren't when the year ended though. And the Twins were going to be lucky to get to .500.

People, especially those who have negative feelings, are always in a rush to be vindicated about their judgments. Just let it play out, and trust that the Sox know what they're doing.

Of course you are right that in a sense, any time prior to season's end is too soon, since we have more than once seen dramatic changes in the course of a season. But by that reasoning, there wouldn't be much point to this sight, except to review the past season, would there? Anyway, in 2004 I could have told you long before the end of the season that we didn't have a fifth starter. Having thought about it, however, I do agree that now is far too early to make a judgment; it is not, however, far too early to feel uneasy.

And as for Danks and what Cooper said to him: I suppose that could have happened, though I gather you have not the slightest basis for suggesting it and it really wouldn't make a lot of sense to do that when there is only a limited time left to see what this 21 year old who has never been in the majors can do against (at least some) major league hitters. Honestly, wouldn't YOU have preferred that one of the candidates had separated himself out by this point?

If it turns out I have been completely wrong in doubting KW, I will be more than happy to acknowledge that fact. I certainly don't want him to fail. I wonder, however, whether some of his avid supporters would ever concede that he screwed up, no matter what happens.

FarWestChicago
03-19-2007, 07:09 PM
I certainly don't want him to fail.I don't believe this for one second.

Tragg
03-19-2007, 07:18 PM
I guess I was worried before spring training, and nothing that has happened there has made me (1) feel better about the fifth spot, or (2) understand KW's trades, to the extent he wasn't giving up on 2007. "

"Giving up" is over-stating the situation. Williams is balancing competiting this year with competing the next several years...we need to do both. Aren't you glad that Williams didn't go "all in" in 2005, like many wanted him to do (trade the farm for AJ Burnett was a popular position).
We have a SERIOUS free agent challenge after this year....our best hitter and MB and, without the trade, Garcia as well. WE also have other areas that could use upgrading.
We gave up really ONE sure starter and he's a FA after this year.
We got FIVE really good pitching prospects for him and McCarthy, 2 of which are near ML ready and another 2 right behind. We can use all 5 to cover what we lose in FA (we won't lose all of our FAs, but some) either through trade, low-cost to afford expensive free agents at other positions, etc.
You may disagree or agree, but "giving up" really is an inaccurate depiction, imo.

Lprof
03-19-2007, 10:29 PM
I don't believe this for one second.

Look, you don't know me and I don't know you, but that is either the dumbest, or the most paranoid, thing I have ever seen on this website. Why in Heaven's name should I want KW to fail? I'm a Sox fan, and have suffered with them for many years. He brought me something I never thought I would live to see--a Sox world championship. He could screw up for the rest of his career and I would still have a special place in my heart for him. But does that mean I have to approve of every trade and move he makes? Viewing his off season moves through the lens of 2007, I didn't understand them when they were made, but hoped he saw something in Floyd that wasn't reflected in either his record or what the Phillies were saying about him--and who knows? Maybe it will still work out that way. But right now, I am really uneasy. Anybody who isn't at least concerned hasn't been watching. Just let me know where you got your Koolaid, and I'll drink some too. Then, like you, I will never doubt KW again.

Lprof
03-19-2007, 10:39 PM
"Giving up" is over-stating the situation. Williams is balancing competiting this year with competing the next several years...we need to do both. Aren't you glad that Williams didn't go "all in" in 2005, like many wanted him to do (trade the farm for AJ Burnett was a popular position).
We have a SERIOUS free agent challenge after this year....our best hitter and MB and, without the trade, Garcia as well. WE also have other areas that could use upgrading.
We gave up really ONE sure starter and he's a FA after this year.
We got FIVE really good pitching prospects for him and McCarthy, 2 of which are near ML ready and another 2 right behind. We can use all 5 to cover what we lose in FA (we won't lose all of our FAs, but some) either through trade, low-cost to afford expensive free agents at other positions, etc.
You may disagree or agree, but "giving up" really is an inaccurate depiction, imo.
When a GM trades a 17 game winner who would be at least your third starter going into the season for nobody who can help you this season, that isn't a move usually made by somebody trying to win. The very fact that, as you say, we have a big free agent problem coming up is the reason I would think he would want to go for it this year. Isn't KW the one who always says the only World Series we can win is this year's? And I am very glad that KW was willing to take risks by trading quite a bit of minor league talent for proven veterans and signing players with track records, in order to put us into a position to win in 2005.
I don't think it's possible to balance the way you suggest. Maybe you can think of a successful contending team that, before the season, traded an established veteran for nobody that was likely to help in the upcoming season, but I can't. The Tigers didn't do it, nor did the Yankess or Red Sox. I don't know how you classify the Twins, but surely we aren't in their financial position.

Daver
03-19-2007, 10:43 PM
The Tigers didn't do it, nor did the Yankess or Red Sox. I don't know how you classify the Twins, but surely we aren't in their financial position.

Are you an owner in the White Sox to know what their financial plans are?

Lprof
03-20-2007, 08:37 AM
Are you an owner in the White Sox to know what their financial plans are?
And do you work for the White Sox? There are a number of contributors here who never, ever differ with anything the Sox say or do. I find that a little strange. Anyway, almost 3 million people went to games last year. If the Sox are going to tell me that they are in the same financial situation as the Twins, I am not going to believe it.

itsnotrequired
03-20-2007, 08:44 AM
And do you work for the White Sox? There are a number of contributors here who never, ever differ with anything the Sox say or do. I find that a little strange. Anyway, almost 3 million people went to games last year. If the Sox are going to tell me that they are in the same financial situation as the Twins, I am not going to believe it.

It would seem the Twins bring in mush less revenue when compared to the Sox but their payroll is also much lower. Both teams could easily be in a similar financial situation depending on their current income, payments, debts, loans, etc.

FarWestChicago
03-20-2007, 06:03 PM
Look, you don't know me and I don't know you, but that is either the dumbest, or the most paranoid, thing I have ever seen on this website.I'm sorry, there is no reason to believe you would not prefer the Sox to fail so you could claim you were "right". There is nothing in your posts or behavior to conclude otherwise. You can call me stupid and paranoid all you want.

Brian26
03-20-2007, 08:28 PM
There are a number of contributors here who never, ever differ with anything the Sox say or do.

Having been part of this community since it began in July of 2001 (and part of the Rivals site before that), I can assure you that you are completely incorrect in that suggestion. Anyone who was here for the Royce Clayton years would surely agree with me.

Lprof
03-20-2007, 08:46 PM
I'm sorry, there is no reason to believe you would not prefer the Sox to fail so you could claim you were "right". There is nothing in your posts or behavior to conclude otherwise. You can call me stupid and paranoid all you want.

That simply isn't true. On a number of occasions, I have expressly indicated that I hope I am wrong in my prediction. I can honestly say that there are few things that give me more pleasure than having the Sox win, so it would be self-destructive to root against the Sox. But what I don't understand is why people here get so up in arms if I raise serious concerns and questions about the off-season moves? Do I have to mindlessly accept everything the Sox and KW do in order to qualify as a "patriotic" Sox fan? I witnessed live the first Sox playoff game ever in Chicago; Andy Hawkins' losing "no-hitter"; the 2000 playoffs, and the ball going through Graffanino's legs. I frankly resent your calling me a liar when I say I am a tride and true Sox fan and want them to win. You have no basis for saying such things.

Lprof
03-20-2007, 08:50 PM
Having been part of this community since it began in July of 2001 (and part of the Rivals site before that), I can assure you that you are completely incorrect in that suggestion. Anyone who was here for the Royce Clayton years would surely agree with me.

Ok, you're right that I cannot comment on what was going on here during the Royce Clayton years. But I certainly have noticed that any time anyone questions anything the Sox do, no matter what that is, there is the same group of contributors quickly coming out to fierecely defend whatever move has been made. Knowing many Sox fans over many years and knowing how negative most of them are even without justification, I find this unbending, uncritical loyalty a little puzzling.

Brian26
03-20-2007, 08:53 PM
Knowing many Sox fans over many years and knowing how negative most of them are even without justification, I find this unbending, uncritical loyalty a little puzzling.

I find it refreshing.

However, like I said, I don't think the loyalty is as uncritical as you believe it to be.

FarWestChicago
03-20-2007, 08:54 PM
That simply isn't true. On a number of occasions, I have expressly indicated that I hope I am wrong in my prediction. I can honestly say that there are few things that give me more pleasure than having the Sox win, so it would be self-destructive to root against the Sox. But what I don't understand is why people here get so up in arms if I raise serious concerns and questions about the off-season moves? Do I have to mindlessly accept everything the Sox and KW do in order to qualify as a "patriotic" Sox fan? I witnessed live the first Sox playoff game ever; Andy Hawkins' losing "no-hitter"; the 2000 playoffs, and the ball going through Grafanino's legs. I frankly resent your calling me a liar when I say I am a tride and true Sox fan and want them to win. You have no basis for saying such things.People who don't agree with you are "minldess" or on "Koolaid". The vehemence with which you defend your admittedly pessimistic positions is a bit startling. One would think if you really hoped you were wrong, you wouldn't be so acerbic. But, what the heck, I could be wrong.

FarWestChicago
03-20-2007, 08:57 PM
Knowing many Sox fans over many years and knowing how negative most of them are even without justification, I find this unbending, uncritical loyalty a little puzzling.This site has been overrun by psychotically negative posters for years. There were people regularly quitting on the Sox in 2005. Some people have gotten tired of it and tried to balance the equation. The Clouds get all up in arms about this. They want this be be exclusively their place. Well, the fact is, they have to share.

RKMeibalane
03-20-2007, 09:04 PM
Ok, you're right that I cannot comment on what was going on here during the Royce Clayton years. But I certainly have noticed that any time anyone questions anything the Sox do, no matter what that is, there is the same group of contributors quickly coming out to fierecely defend whatever move has been made. Knowing many Sox fans over many years and knowing how negative most of them are even without justification, I find this unbending, uncritical loyalty a little puzzling.

Are you out of your mind? This board has been infested with the clinically depressed for years. As FWC pointed out in his post, some of us are tired of listening to the same people whine, bitch, and moan every time something even remotely negative happens to the Sox organization. No baseball franchise is perfect. The Sox will never be able to finish a season 162-0, yet there are people here stupid enough to believe that because this highly improbable event doesn't happen that it gives them an excuse to wet themselves and cry like spoiled children. Based on your posts, you appear to fit in perfectly with this group. You are insufferable whiner who apparently has no concept of when or how to just ****.

Lprof
03-20-2007, 09:23 PM
People who don't agree with you are "minldess" or on "Koolaid". The vehemence with which you defend your admittedly pessimistic positions is a bit startling. One would think if you really hoped you were wrong, you wouldn't be so acerbic. But, what the heck, I could be wrong.

It is the very fact that I care about the Sox that much that I come on strong when I don't understand their moves. However, I didn't mean to suggest that anyone who disagrees with me about the moves is "mindless". I am more than willing to debate on the merits, and, as I have said, I sincerely do hope I am wrong; it certainly wouldn't be the first time. I was suggesting, rather, that a lot of people here don't want to debate the merits, but rather just question my loyalty to the Sox. It is the implicit equation of criticism (admittedly strongly felt) with disloyalty that I find so troubling. That was all you did in your post that effectively called me a liar. Actually, as I have said, I think it shows just the opposite. If I didn't care about the Sox so much, why would I be spending my time contributing here?

Yes, I feel strongly that the Sox moves over the winter made little sense except perhaps as a cost-saving measure: If the Sox were out of the race by the trading deadline, they could have easily moved Freddy and gotten more back from him from competing contending teams. If they were still in the race, then, well, they should have kept him through the year. They didn't do that. They traded him for two guys who seem to have relatively little chance of contributing this year. People can disagree with that assessment, but that is no basis for questioning my loyalty as a Sox fan.

Your post didn't give me reasons why I was wrong in my assessment; it simply questioned my honesty and my loyalty.

Lprof
03-20-2007, 09:26 PM
Are you out of your mind? This board has been infested with the clinically depressed for years. As FWC pointed out in his post, some of us are tired of listening to the same people whine, bitch, and moan every time something even remotely negative happens to the Sox organization. No baseball franchise is perfect. The Sox will never be able to finish a season 162-0, yet there are people here stupid enough to believe that because this highly improbable event doesn't happen that it gives them an excuse to wet themselves and cry like spoiled children. Based on your posts, you appear to fit in perfectly with this group. You are insufferable whiner who apparently has no concept of when or how to just ****.

I never said that everybody posting on this site defended the Sox. I said that there is always the same group of contributors who come out as a Sox truth squad, never raising any question about Sox moves and always spouting the company line. I just find that surprising.

RKMeibalane
03-20-2007, 09:31 PM
Yes, I feel strongly that the Sox moves over the winter made little sense except perhaps as a cost-saving measure: If the Sox were out of the race by the trading deadline, they could have easily moved Freddy and gotten more back from him from competing contending teams. If they were still in the race, then, well, they should have kept him through the year. They didn't do that. They traded him for two guys who seem to have relatively little chance of contributing this year. People can disagree with that assessment, but that is no basis for questioning my loyalty as a Sox fan.

That trade wasn't made with only 2007 in mind. Williams knows that he needs to find a way to ensure that the Sox have a strong pitching staff for '08, '09, '10, and so on. It made sense to trade Garcia while he still had a few productive seasons left, rather than waiting for his trade value to drop and get nothing worthwhile in return for him. The idea is ensure that the Sox can stay competitive for several seasons, not just one or two. Garcia's presence may have allowed them to win the division this season, but KW has the responsibility of building a team that is good enough to win in subsequent seaosns, as well.

Lprof
03-20-2007, 09:32 PM
Are you out of your mind? This board has been infested with the clinically depressed for years. As FWC pointed out in his post, some of us are tired of listening to the same people whine, bitch, and moan every time something even remotely negative happens to the Sox organization. No baseball franchise is perfect. The Sox will never be able to finish a season 162-0, yet there are people here stupid enough to believe that because this highly improbable event doesn't happen that it gives them an excuse to wet themselves and cry like spoiled children. Based on your posts, you appear to fit in perfectly with this group. You are insufferable whiner who apparently has no concept of when or how to just ****.

I'm sorry, I must plead ignorance as to what "****" means (though perhaps I don't want to know). And as for being a whiner, I have complained about one thing: the offseason trades. I have said I like the Erstad move, last year I wrote about how great the Thome trade was, and, ironically, I often defend the Sox to negative fans. Apparently you think that anyone who is critical of any move is a whiner.

RKMeibalane
03-20-2007, 09:38 PM
I never said that everybody posting on this site defended the Sox. I said that there is always the same group of contributors who come out as a Sox truth squad, never raising any question about Sox moves and always spouting the company line. I just find that surprising.

The phrase "spouting the company line" suggests that the group you're referring to isn't intelligent enough to think for itself. Having been a member for more than five and a half years, I'm forced to disagree with that statement. The posters you're criticizing are and have been some of this board's best for several years. Many of them are so talented that they've been asked to write editorials and feature articles for this site, and for others. When they defend the Sox brass, they're not simply reciting a slogan. They're voicing their faith in the Sox organization, and the people who run it.

Are the Sox perfect? Absolutely not. But they are run by people who understand the game of baseball far better than most, and for many members of this board, that is reason enough not to question their decisons. If Frank Thomas can be replaced, then Freddy Garcia can, as well. Whining about it for all hours of the night won't change that.

Lprof
03-20-2007, 09:38 PM
That trade wasn't made with only 2007 in mind. Williams knows that he needs to find a way to ensure that the Sox have a strong pitching staff for '08, '09, '10, and so on. It made sense to trade Garcia while he still had a few productive seasons left, rather than waiting for his trade value to drop and get nothing worthwhile in return for him. The idea is ensure that the Sox can stay competitive for several seasons, not just one or two. Garcia's presence may have allowed them to win the division this season, but KW has the responsibility of building a team that is good enough to win in subsequent seaosns, as well.
Ok, at least we know what we disagree on. You concede that keeping Freddy would have given us a better chance to win this year. You agree with KW that this is worth it because it will help us have a stronger staff, thereby making us more competitive, in future years. On the other hand, I think the only championship you can win now is this year's, we're probably losing much of our offense next year (Dye, perhaps Crede, and Thome isn't getting any younger), that young unproven pitchers are usually too risky as investments (remember Rauch and Ruffcorn), and that we should have gone for it this year. That is an example of reasonable people differing, without calling each other names. It's a lot more civilized, I think.

RKMeibalane
03-20-2007, 09:40 PM
I'm sorry, I must plead ignorance as to what "****" means.

That's your problem. I don't have time to create remedial versions of my posts in order to cator to the low-IQ individuals who insist on polluting this board with their mindless nonsense time and time again.

HotelWhiteSox
03-20-2007, 09:41 PM
This site has been overrun by psychotically negative posters for years. There were people regularly quitting on the Sox in 2005. Some people have gotten tired of it and tried to balance the equation. The Clouds get all up in arms about this. They want this be be exclusively their place. Well, the fact is, they have to share.

Yeah buddy, you were one of them! I think people just don't like being labeled. Has negative connotations. Some fans are way too extreme on being negative (like the ones right now who act like they've never experienced a baseball spring training before), but people overuse that dark cloud image so much, you almost can't bring up a point or have a good discussion.

FarWestChicago
03-20-2007, 09:47 PM
Yeah buddy, you were one of them!I don't recall ever being a Cloud, but I could be wrong.

Lprof
03-20-2007, 09:53 PM
That's your problem. I don't have time to create remedial versions of my posts in order to cator to the low-IQ individuals who insist on polluting this board with their mindless nonsense time and time again.
Well, I guess I have to retract my comment about civilized reasonable people differing without name calling.

Lprof
03-20-2007, 09:56 PM
That's your problem. I don't have time to create remedial versions of my posts in order to cator to the low-IQ individuals who insist on polluting this board with their mindless nonsense time and time again.

Speaking of people with low IQ's, perhaps you should double check the spelling of the word, "cater."

Daver
03-20-2007, 09:57 PM
It is the very fact that I care about the Sox that much that I come on strong when I don't understand their moves. However, I didn't mean to suggest that anyone who disagrees with me about the moves is "mindless". I am more than willing to debate on the merits, and, as I have said, I sincerely do hope I am wrong; it certainly wouldn't be the first time. I was suggesting, rather, that a lot of people here don't want to debate the merits, but rather just question my loyalty to the Sox. It is the implicit equation of criticism (admittedly strongly felt) with disloyalty that I find so troubling. That was all you did in your post that effectively called me a liar. Actually, as I have said, I think it shows just the opposite. If I didn't care about the Sox so much, why would I be spending my time contributing here?

Yes, I feel strongly that the Sox moves over the winter made little sense except perhaps as a cost-saving measure: If the Sox were out of the race by the trading deadline, they could have easily moved Freddy and gotten more back from him from competing contending teams. If they were still in the race, then, well, they should have kept him through the year. They didn't do that. They traded him for two guys who seem to have relatively little chance of contributing this year. People can disagree with that assessment, but that is no basis for questioning my loyalty as a Sox fan.

Your post didn't give me reasons why I was wrong in my assessment; it simply questioned my honesty and my loyalty.

The Sox traded Freddy Garcia, who had a mediocre season, and admitted he didn't bother to prepare unless he was pitching a "big game", do you think just maybe management had a problem with his attitude and what it could lead to in the clubhouse?

A. Cavatica
03-20-2007, 10:03 PM
The Sox traded Freddy Garcia, who had a mediocre season, and admitted he didn't bother to prepare unless he was pitching a "big game", do you think just maybe management had a problem with his attitude and what it could lead to in the clubhouse?

Almost everyone here would've been jumping for joy if the Sox had traded Garcia to fill a 2007 need, perhaps a leadoff hitter who could play LF or SS or CF. Most of those who criticized the trade, including myself, were just surprised that we could get only Floyd and Gonzalez for him.

Daver
03-20-2007, 10:06 PM
Almost everyone here would've been jumping for joy if the Sox had traded Garcia to fill a 2007 need, perhaps a leadoff hitter who could play LF or SS or CF. Most of those who criticized the trade, including myself, were just surprised that we could get only Floyd and Gonzalez for him.

His comments may have killed his trade value, if you were a GM would give up more than prospects for a pitcher that has tested positive for drugs and has admitted to being lazy?

FarWestChicago
03-20-2007, 10:07 PM
Almost everyone here would've been jumping for joy if the Sox had traded Garcia to fill a 2007 need, perhaps a leadoff hitter who could play LF or SS or CF. Most of those who criticized the trade, including myself, were just surprised that we could get only Floyd and Gonzalez for him.Is it possible that's all he was worth?

santo=dorf
03-20-2007, 10:10 PM
The Sox traded Freddy Garcia, who had a mediocre season, and admitted he didn't bother to prepare unless he was pitching a "big game", do you think just maybe management had a problem with his attitude and what it could lead to in the clubhouse?
Freddy Garcia was as good or perhaps even better than Garland last year.

Did Garland have a "mediocre" year in 2006?

I'll gladly take Freddy slacking off against the Royals if it means him winning the division clincher, ALDS clincher, and most importantly, a world series clincher.

Is it possible that's all he was worth?
Doubt it. Many MLB executives were shocked the White Sox didn't get more for him, especially in this market. The Sox got a guy with one option left who bombed in AAA and the NL and was not looked upon favorably by the organization. They also got back a lefty prospect whose durability and size was questioned when he was originally traded for Jim Thome. But now that he's back with the Sox, he's awesome again.

A. Cavatica
03-20-2007, 10:19 PM
Is it possible that's all he was worth?

Sure. If he's got an injury or a substance abuse problem or an attitude problem that we don't know the details about.

I don't think I'm stretching it to say that most outside observers thought he was worth more. A 30-year-old pitcher whose career averages are 15-9, 4.01 and 222 AL innings, whose salary is a relative bargain, is worth more. The market for starting pitching was insane this year.

Is it possible that Floyd and Gonzalez are worth less?

Lprof
03-20-2007, 10:20 PM
The Sox traded Freddy Garcia, who had a mediocre season, and admitted he didn't bother to prepare unless he was pitching a "big game", do you think just maybe management had a problem with his attitude and what it could lead to in the clubhouse?
In what baseball universe is a 17 win season considered "mediocre"--especially in an age when hardly anybody wins 20? Any way, I would have been ok with trading him, if it helped us for this year; anything is possible, but it is sure tough to see that being true.

Crede_Fan
03-20-2007, 10:22 PM
Ok, you're right that I cannot comment on what was going on here during the Royce Clayton years. But I certainly have noticed that any time anyone questions anything the Sox do, no matter what that is, there is the same group of contributors quickly coming out to fierecely defend whatever move has been made. Knowing many Sox fans over many years and knowing how negative most of them are even without justification, I find this unbending, uncritical loyalty a little puzzling.


I believe it has something to do with the fact that Sox won the World Series 2 seasons ago.

HotelWhiteSox
03-20-2007, 11:34 PM
I don't recall ever being a Cloud, but I could be wrong.

I am saying that based on that current predictions thread, where you were saying that you weren't that optimistic before 05 (well, I doubt anyone had serious consideration of the Series), unless you meant the people going crazy towards the end of the season, when Cleveland made its run

PaulDrake
03-21-2007, 09:12 AM
Almost everyone here would've been jumping for joy if the Sox had traded Garcia to fill a 2007 need, perhaps a leadoff hitter who could play LF or SS or CF. Most of those who criticized the trade, including myself, were just surprised that we could get only Floyd and Gonzalez for him. Exactly.Those of us not liking it didn't object to Freddy being traded, but when the Adam Eatons and Gil Meches of the world can break the bank, he is worth considerably more than we got for him.

RowanDye
03-21-2007, 09:52 AM
Exactly.Those of us not liking it didn't object to Freddy being traded, but when the Adam Eatons and Gil Meches of the world can break the bank, he is worth considerably more than we got for him.

It depends on how you evaluate trades, but to me that's just too shortsighted.

The fact is that we really don't know what we got for him!

Yes, it would have been nice to trade him for Carl Crawford or Miguel Tejada, but let's be realistic. Freddy is a 1 yr, Catch-22 pitcher. If you traded for him and he ended up sucking in '07 then you made a bad trade, if he was good well then you would be hard pressed to sign him in the current FA market.

This topic has been beat to death in other threads, but I have to agree with Daver et al. on the suggestion that Freddy has some baggage. Throw in the facts that he can't hold a runner on base to save his life and his velocity was down for much of the year and you might not get a lot of great trade offers.
This is just speculation, but it seems telling that his father-in-law is the manager and didn't push very hard to keep him on the team.

KW decided to gamble on some prospects rather than keep him or trade him for mediocre major leaguers.

I don't think trading for an outfield prospect would have helped much this year either.

So that leaves us with Floyd and Gio. If you take all that I have said into account I think this is a trade that must be evaluated long-term --

or at least wait until Floyd or Gio throw a pitch.

whitesoxfan1986
03-23-2007, 04:07 PM
Danks looks very impressive today. It seems like his last start was a fluke. I still want to give Floyd a shot to pitch in the bigs, more for Danks' protection than anything else. I like Floyd, but I think Danks could be a Tom Glavine type pitcher.

JermaineDye05
03-23-2007, 04:11 PM
Danks today, 4 IP 1 hit 3 walks 0 runs 2 k's

I didn't like seeing the walks but his control is usually good and he was good at pitching out of it good pick off move and got the double play.

JermaineDye05
03-23-2007, 04:38 PM
Gavin giving up a grand slam, walking a couple and has a throwing error. Danks in front again.

russ99
03-23-2007, 04:50 PM
Danks today, 4 IP 1 hit 3 walks 0 runs 2 k's

I didn't like seeing the walks but his control is usually good and he was good at pitching out of it good pick off move and got the double play.

I think Danks should get the job based on his mound presence and strikeout numbers alone.Can't wait to fire up the DVR and watch this one tonight.

dagame2005
03-23-2007, 04:50 PM
Danks definitely looked good today. It was my first chance to see him pitch and I was very impressed with his stuff and command. Gavin on the other hand just does not impress me. To go along with his lack of command, he seems to lack an out pitch. This is going to get him into trouble pitching in the big leagues. He does have good movement on his fastball, but does not pitch to both sides of the plate. He just does not look major league ready yet to me.

goon
03-23-2007, 05:11 PM
Danks today, 4 IP 1 hit 3 walks 0 runs 2 k's

I didn't like seeing the walks but his control is usually good and he was good at pitching out of it good pick off move and got the double play.

I thought the ump kinda sucked, Danks really got hosed on the first walk. The only bad walk he really had was 4 straight pitches, but he got around some mistakes and battled through a few jams. He just looks really smooth and confident on the mound, he definitely looked like a rookie at times, but a rookie that you know will be an asset to rotation sometime. This is all very good.

Danks looks to be heading for the 5th spot in the rotation, though I hope Russell gets another start. Him and Danks seem like the best fit for the 5th spot.

whitesoxfan1986
03-23-2007, 05:37 PM
I said this in the game thread: Floyd has only had 19 starts at the Major League level. It took Garland 3 seasons to figure it out. Granted he's had some crappy ones, but I'm sure all of Floyd's 19 starts haven't been 10 hit 5+ ER in less than 5 IP outings. Let's give Floyd some starts in the Majors before relegating him as crap. Yes, Danks has been impressive. If Danks had a whole season at AAA under his belt, then I'd give the spot to him. But he hasn't, so I'd like to see him dominate AAA before giving him a call up. I'm supporting Floyd for the fifth starter, despite his struggles, but only because I am skeptical about Danks being ready for the big show.(See:McCarthy, May-June 2005.)

BanditJimmy
03-23-2007, 05:41 PM
Floyd was just plain bad.


And if he uses the weather as an excuse, this is what Chicago weather is like come April and early May.

JermaineDye05
03-23-2007, 05:43 PM
I said this in the game thread: Floyd has only had 19 starts at the Major League level. It took Garland 3 seasons to figure it out. Granted he's had some crappy ones, but I'm sure all of Floyd's 19 starts haven't been 10 hit 5+ ER in less than 5 IP outings. Let's give Floyd some starts in the Majors before relegating him as crap. Yes, Danks has been impressive. If Danks had a whole season at AAA under his belt, then I'd give the spot to him. But he hasn't, so I'd like to see him dominate AAA before giving him a call up. I'm supporting Floyd for the fifth starter, despite his struggles, but only because I am skeptical about Danks being ready for the big show.(See:McCarthy, May-June 2005.)

the problem is Gavin has trouble throwing strikes while Danks, with the exception of today, doesn't (from what we see so far) I'd rather Danks get beat by throwing strikes than Gavin get beat by have 3+ walks in a game. I say send Gavin to AAA and have him work on throwing strikes.

whitesoxfan1986
03-23-2007, 05:58 PM
I really don't think that the coaches are really going to read much into Gavin's outing today anyway because it seemed that the field conditions were crap, and pitchers have to change around their delivery when the mound condition is bad. I'd like to see Gavin and Danks have 1 real start(Go as long as they're getting outs/until they've thrown enough pitches) and after that, I'll make my final decision.

goon
03-23-2007, 06:00 PM
the problem is Gavin has trouble throwing strikes while Danks, with the exception of today, doesn't (from what we see so far) I'd rather Danks get beat by throwing strikes than Gavin get beat by have 3+ walks in a game. I say send Gavin to AAA and have him work on throwing strikes.


Send him down or put him in the pen. At this point, I don't think he's ready for the 5th spot, maybe if Danks, Haegar or Russell begin to struggle he could come in and take it over, but he's just too wild and looks timid on the mound. I kinda hope he stays up so Cooper can work with him because he does have really great stuff, good movement on his fastball and a hard breaking curve.

SoxSpeed22
03-23-2007, 06:09 PM
Looks like Danks has both hands on it, all he has to do is hold on to it.

schmitty9800
03-23-2007, 06:20 PM
They also got back a lefty prospect whose durability and size was questioned when he was originally traded for Jim Thome. But now that he's back with the Sox, he's awesome again.

I think you're putting words in people's mouths. KW said that it was hard for him to part with Gio from day one of the Thome trade; he didn't say "Well, we're glad to be rid of this 19 year old who's not durable or big enough (two things that you work on in the minors)." If you want to question the guy, base it on he struggled early in his AA season (which wasn't that horrible considering it was his second full pro year).

thomas35forever
03-23-2007, 06:25 PM
Looks like Danks has both hands on it, all he has to do is hold on to it.
I'm all for Danks in the rotation, but if he craps out during the first couple of months, we're in deep ****.

santo=dorf
03-23-2007, 06:36 PM
I think you're putting words in people's mouths. KW said that it was hard for him to part with Gio from day one of the Thome trade; he didn't say "Well, we're glad to be rid of this 19 year old who's not durable or big enough (two things that you work on in the minors)." If you want to question the guy, base it on he struggled early in his AA season (which wasn't that horrible considering it was his second full pro year).
No, I'm not. I'm talking about WSI posters.

This thread (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=62654&highlight=durability) is like the complete opposite of what people are saying about Gio now. "Durability." "Our prospects never pan out." "He doesn't help the major league team right now."

JB98
03-23-2007, 06:45 PM
I'm all for Danks in the rotation, but if he craps out during the first couple of months, we're in deep ****.

I don't agree with that. I think Haeger is a legitimate option. And it's a little too early to give up on Floyd. I'm not impressed with what I've seen, but there's still obviously plenty of time for him to find himself.

I'm for Danks in the rotation, but I'm comfortable we have other things we can try if he falters. This is not Josh Stewart/Felix Diaz/Arnie Munoz Part II by any means. This current group of candidates has more talent than that collection of crap.

champagne030
03-23-2007, 06:53 PM
I said this in the game thread: Floyd has only had 19 starts at the Major League level. It took Garland 3 seasons to figure it out. Granted he's had some crappy ones, but I'm sure all of Floyd's 19 starts haven't been 10 hit 5+ ER in less than 5 IP outings. Let's give Floyd some starts in the Majors before relegating him as crap. Yes, Danks has been impressive. If Danks had a whole season at AAA under his belt, then I'd give the spot to him. But he hasn't, so I'd like to see him dominate AAA before giving him a call up. I'm supporting Floyd for the fifth starter, despite his struggles, but only because I am skeptical about Danks being ready for the big show.(See:McCarthy, May-June 2005.)

I don't think Danks is ready to start the season in Chicago either, but I certainly don't want to hand it to Gavin. You want to see Danks dominate at the AAA level? I want to see Floyd have any semblance of success, let alone dominate, past the AA level. I think Haegar or a trade of Broadway for a marginal veteran is the best move for the Sox. The worst move would be to let Gavin start as our #5.

RowanDye
03-23-2007, 07:03 PM
I said this in the game thread: Floyd has only had 19 starts at the Major League level. It took Garland 3 seasons to figure it out. Granted he's had some crappy ones, but I'm sure all of Floyd's 19 starts haven't been 10 hit 5+ ER in less than 5 IP outings. Let's give Floyd some starts in the Majors before relegating him as crap. Yes, Danks has been impressive. If Danks had a whole season at AAA under his belt, then I'd give the spot to him. But he hasn't, so I'd like to see him dominate AAA before giving him a call up. I'm supporting Floyd for the fifth starter, despite his struggles, but only because I am skeptical about Danks being ready for the big show.(See:McCarthy, May-June 2005.)

In 2006 Floyd started 11 games with the Phillies.

In 5 of those 11 starts he gave up less than 5 runs, and 4 out of those 5 starts comprised his win total for the year.

He 2 hit the Mets over 5 innings on May 11th for a W.

He finished with 54 innings pitched, which is about 5 innings per start.

The most damning thing for Floyd is that he gave up 14 HR and 32 BB in those 54 innings.

He has a tendency to pick, get behind hitters, and then give up the long ball.

I want the guy to succeed, but it seems that today's outing is more par for the course than an aberration.

Hopefully he starts throwing strikes, otherwise he won't be on the roster.

champagne030
03-23-2007, 07:09 PM
In 2006 Floyd started 11 games with the Phillies.

In 5 of those 11 starts he gave up less than 5 runs, and 4 out of those 5 starts comprised his win total for the year.

He 2 hit the Mets over 5 innings on May 11th for a W.

He finished with 54 innings pitched, which is about 5 innings per start.

The most damning thing for Floyd is that he gave up 14 HR and 32 BB in those 54 innings.

He has a tendency to pick, get behind hitters, and then give up the long ball.

I want the guy to succeed, but it seems that today's outing is more par for the course than an aberration.

Hopefully he starts throwing strikes, otherwise he won't be on the roster.

And that's the day he was saved by Rowand, in inning 1, breaking his face against the wall after Gavin load the bases.

whitesoxfan1986
03-23-2007, 08:25 PM
I don't think Danks is ready to start the season in Chicago either, but I certainly don't want to hand it to Gavin. You want to see Danks dominate at the AAA level? I want to see Floyd have any semblance of success, let alone dominate, past the AA level. I think Haegar or a trade of Broadway for a marginal veteran is the best move for the Sox. The worst move would be to let Gavin start as our #5.
Yeah, that's right. I said dominate. With the way Danks is pitching this ST I have no doubt that he can do that. The reason I want Floyd to stay at the major league level is that he only has one option left, and I want to truly be able to know what he can do. He has a good fastball despite the radar readings on comcast.(according to their gun Danks was at 88-91 which I don't believe, I think the gun was 2-4mph slow) and a wicked curve. If he would just throw ****ing strikes he would be a good pitcher. Maybe they'll keep Gavin in the pen and have him work on getting ahead of the hitters. That is his only problem that I can see. The stuff is there, he just needs to throw strikes.

sullythered
03-23-2007, 08:52 PM
I like John Danks quite a bit, and I think he has a bright future. But if this was a truly open competition, Adam Russell would be running away with this and hiding.

FarWestChicago
03-23-2007, 09:45 PM
I think you're putting words in people's mouths.

No, I'm not.BS, that's exactly what you do. You post any crap you possibly can to make KW look stupid. Well, the reality is, he's got street cred and you have nothing. Sometimes reality sucks.

santo=dorf
03-23-2007, 09:50 PM
BS, that's exactly what you do. You post any crap you possibly can to make KW look stupid. Well, the reality is, he's got street cred and you have nothing. Sometimes reality sucks.
Ummm, I've been one of KW's biggest backers since the Colon trade, but I have hated the second Freddy Garcia trade since day 1.

I have never implied KW was the one flip flopping on Gio Gonzalez. Look it up.

Lprof
03-23-2007, 10:35 PM
I said this in the game thread: Floyd has only had 19 starts at the Major League level. It took Garland 3 seasons to figure it out. Granted he's had some crappy ones, but I'm sure all of Floyd's 19 starts haven't been 10 hit 5+ ER in less than 5 IP outings. Let's give Floyd some starts in the Majors before relegating him as crap. Yes, Danks has been impressive. If Danks had a whole season at AAA under his belt, then I'd give the spot to him. But he hasn't, so I'd like to see him dominate AAA before giving him a call up. I'm supporting Floyd for the fifth starter, despite his struggles, but only because I am skeptical about Danks being ready for the big show.(See:McCarthy, May-June 2005.)

The problem is that once the season starts, the games count--something that seems so obvious but seems to have been lost on some. It is not costless to see what Floyd can do in the majors; those games could come back to haunt us. He has shown absolutely no basis, either at AAA, the majors with the Phils, or in spring training, to make anyone think he can win at the major league level. In fact, he has looked butt ugly. You have to start the season with your best chance of winning games. I am very nervous about Danks for several reasons, but he is still the best we seem to have now. If Floyd does it at AAA, and/or Danks fails, we can adjust. This is, however, the very situation I was afraid would develop: no clear fifth starter. Danks looks like he is going to be solid at some point in his career; I sure hope it is now.

Lprof
03-23-2007, 10:43 PM
I don't agree with that. I think Haeger is a legitimate option. And it's a little too early to give up on Floyd. I'm not impressed with what I've seen, but there's still obviously plenty of time for him to find himself.

I'm for Danks in the rotation, but I'm comfortable we have other things we can try if he falters. This is not Josh Stewart/Felix Diaz/Arnie Munoz Part II by any means. This current group of candidates has more talent than that collection of crap.

You may be right; I'm not sure. But I don't know what you are basing your certainty on. Floyd looks as bad as Felix Diaz on his worst day. Why are you so sure that a year from now, we aren't saying, "I hope this isn't a repeat of the Floyd/Haeger/Danks fiasco"? I do think Danks could be a thoroughbread--I just don't know if he will show it this year. If he is, say, two years away (he would only be 23 then), for all practical purposes this group might very well turn out to be as ineffective--and frustrating--as the 2004 crew.

jabrch
03-23-2007, 11:38 PM
I really thought Gavin would have the job. But Danks has pitched himself into the job while Gavin has pitched himself out of it. It will be interesting to see which way KW and OG go.

Tragg
03-23-2007, 11:56 PM
What's Danks' velocity?
What are his prime pitches?
Thanks.

jabrch
03-24-2007, 12:05 AM
What's Danks' velocity?
What are his prime pitches?
Thanks.

Low to mid 90s. +fastball and a ++ curve. Sometimes a slight command issue.

JermaineDye05
03-24-2007, 12:05 AM
What's Danks' velocity?
What are his prime pitches?
Thanks.

fastball curveball with an occassional change

fastball tops out at 91 mph usually and occassionally will hit 93

curveball is around 77-79 mph

his change when I've seen it is somwhere between 81-83 mph

CWSpalehoseCWS
03-24-2007, 01:48 AM
I really thought Gavin would have the job. But Danks has pitched himself into the job while Gavin has pitched himself out of it. It will be interesting to see which way KW and OG go.

Well considering they went with Logan last year, I would be really surprised if Danks didn't win out.

UserNameBlank
03-24-2007, 06:15 AM
No, I'm not. I'm talking about WSI posters.

This thread (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=62654&highlight=durability) is like the complete opposite of what people are saying about Gio now. "Durability." "Our prospects never pan out." "He doesn't help the major league team right now."

In all fairness, that is always going to happen here. If Josh Fields and Ryan Sweeney were both traded tomorrow for an OF or starting pitcher or something, there would be just as many people talking about how neither of these guys are going to pan out as there would be who dislike the idea of trading them.

I think the reason that is like that is because people generally trust KW. Since 2003 when he went out and nabbed Bartolo, signed Loaiza who produced a Cy Young like season, and picked up Carl Everett and Roberto Alomar for essentially what turned out to be nothing at a time when the Sox were I believe 8 games out, KW has earned people's respect.

I remember during the Thome trade some of the guys on here who follow the minors were unhappy about losing Gio, but most of us didn't really have much of a true opinion because we hadn't seen him play. Now, after watching this kid in ST this year, I can see why people were upset about losing him and happy we got him back.

UserNameBlank
03-24-2007, 06:19 AM
fastball curveball with an occassional change

fastball tops out at 91 mph usually and occassionally will hit 93

curveball is around 77-79 mph

his change when I've seen it is somwhere between 81-83 mph

I've only seen 2 or 3 outings from Danks this year, with yesterday's outing being the longest period I've seen him throw, so I can't say anything about his changeup. But, during the broadast Hawk, who I'm sure has seen Danks throw more than probably anyone here, said both Gavin and John have changeups that are "virtually nonexistant."

I remember reading articles at the time of the trade that said Danks was learning how to throw his change and that his change was emerging as a major league pitch. He was supposedly gaining confidence in it, so I wonder why he hasn't been throwing it that much. I hope that if and when he makes this team he goes to it more often, because having a third pitch that everyone says is decent being "virtually nonexistant" is not going to help him.

Lprof
03-24-2007, 07:09 AM
In all fairness, that is always going to happen here. If Josh Fields and Ryan Sweeney were both traded tomorrow for an OF or starting pitcher or something, there would be just as many people talking about how neither of these guys are going to pan out as there would be who dislike the idea of trading them.

I think the reason that is like that is because people generally trust KW. Since 2003 when he went out and nabbed Bartolo, signed Loaiza who produced a Cy Young like season, and picked up Carl Everett and Roberto Alomar for essentially what turned out to be nothing at a time when the Sox were I believe 8 games out, KW has earned people's respect.

I remember during the Thome trade some of the guys on here who follow the minors were unhappy about losing Gio, but most of us didn't really have much of a true opinion because we hadn't seen him play. Now, after watching this kid in ST this year, I can see why people were upset about losing him and happy we got him back.

I know I haven't seen all of his spring performances, but the couple of times I've seen Gio pitch, he looked really tentative and ineffective. Did I miss some performances that give rise to your confidence? Of course, the fact that he is tentative in spring training is not proof that he will never be a successful major leaguer, but neither does it give rise to confidence that he will be.

JermaineDye05
03-24-2007, 11:22 AM
I've only seen 2 or 3 outings from Danks this year, with yesterday's outing being the longest period I've seen him throw, so I can't say anything about his changeup. But, during the broadast Hawk, who I'm sure has seen Danks throw more than probably anyone here, said both Gavin and John have changeups that are "virtually nonexistant."

I remember reading articles at the time of the trade that said Danks was learning how to throw his change and that his change was emerging as a major league pitch. He was supposedly gaining confidence in it, so I wonder why he hasn't been throwing it that much. I hope that if and when he makes this team he goes to it more often, because having a third pitch that everyone says is decent being "virtually nonexistant" is not going to help him.

I saw him throw it against the Cubs back when we played them in Mesa, he had a real good motion with it and struck out someone (I forget who) but he did make them look pretty bad.

UserNameBlank
03-24-2007, 11:28 AM
I know I haven't seen all of his spring performances, but the couple of times I've seen Gio pitch, he looked really tentative and ineffective. Did I miss some performances that give rise to your confidence? Of course, the fact that he is tentative in spring training is not proof that he will never be a successful major leaguer, but neither does it give rise to confidence that he will be.
Gio, to me anyway, looked really good early in spring but hasn't looked great recently. Early on he was attacking hitters and he looked pretty poised out there, which is I guess the reason Ozzie and co. were raving about him. Clearly he isn't ready now, but I really see him in the major leagues. If not a starter, I think he will harness his control enough to be late inning lefty setup man. In looking at what Garcia would have/could have been worth at the time of the trade, I think if worst case scenario the Sox end up with a cheap young late inning lefty and a somewhat serviceable long reliever in Gavin they will have gotten a good deal.

UserNameBlank
03-24-2007, 11:29 AM
I saw him throw it against the Cubs back when we played them in Mesa, he had a real good motion with it and struck out someone (I forget who) but he did make them look pretty bad.
Good to hear then. He'll need it against the Central.

palehosepub
03-28-2007, 06:30 PM
If not Danks, then who?:?:

palehosepub
03-28-2007, 06:38 PM
Gio, to me anyway, looked really good early in spring but hasn't looked great recently. Early on he was attacking hitters and he looked pretty poised out there, which is I guess the reason Ozzie and co. were raving about him. Clearly he isn't ready now, but I really see him in the major leagues. If not a starter, I think he will harness his control enough to be late inning lefty setup man. In looking at what Garcia would have/could have been worth at the time of the trade, I think if worst case scenario the Sox end up with a cheap young late inning lefty and a somewhat serviceable long reliever in Gavin they will have gotten a good deal.

Right now the eight bullpen pitchers are Jenks, Thorton, and Macdougal for sure and pick three of these six, Aaradsma, Floyd, Logan, Masset, and Sisco. Masset will make the team and and Sisco and Aaradsma have been highly disapointing. So when they pick between Logan and Sisco for the left handed specialist spot and both of them fail, I say Gio is extremely poised from watching him pitch and with his fastball in the mid to high 90s and is said to have the best curveball in the whitesox farm system he should perfect if Thorton goes down with an injury or is just a fluke.