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View Full Version : Change to HoF Veterans Committee voting process in the works?


itsnotrequired
03-13-2007, 08:31 AM
NEW YORK -- After three cycles of shutouts in Hall of Fame voting by the Veterans Committee, possible changes in the process will be on the agenda on Tuesday at the Hall's semi-annual board of directors meeting.

The board may consider having Hall of Famers vote for players only, and perhaps reduce the size of the ballots. The composite ballot could be voted on by a separate committee that would include Frick and Spink Award winners.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070312&content_id=1839119&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

FedEx227
03-13-2007, 08:32 AM
I sort of like it the way it is. It's tough to get in and it should be, lots of people have played this game, but few are truly elite or "hall of fame" status.

itsnotrequired
03-13-2007, 08:45 AM
I sort of like it the way it is. It's tough to get in and it should be, lots of people have played this game, but few are truly elite or "hall of fame" status.

I agree for the player ballot. If these guys weren't good enough to get in back then, how are they better now?

The composite ballot voting needs some rework as it seems a lot of people voting don't know much about the candidates.

RedHeadPaleHoser
03-13-2007, 09:04 AM
This is a crock. From now on, I will call this bull**** "they Santo'd him into the Hall".

spiffie
03-13-2007, 09:25 AM
I have no problem with the idea that players should be dealing with ex-players, and that those who are more specialists in the organizational end of baseball would be considering those people who are up in non-playing capacities. Especially when many of the players have expressed ignorance about many of the people on the non-player side of things.

downstairs
03-13-2007, 10:05 AM
The two-ballot thing is silly. Why not just let the current HOF players have a vote in the same main election? That way neither writers nor players ever have an "exclusive" ballot in which they can screw things up with.

The Bill Mazeroskis would not make it under this system (a good thing), but the ignorance of writers on certain players (i.e. relievers until recently) could be outweighed instantly in a main ballot.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-13-2007, 12:11 PM
The Veterans Committee should be abolished. It was established when the Hall first opened to elect 19th Century Executives & Players. It has since become a debacle (starting in 1945-46), inducting at least 50 HOFers who have no business being in the HOF. The Negro League Committee last year was a joke as well.

I consider the BBWAA players voted as one level of the HOF (count the Negro League inductees until 2005 as well). The Veterans Committee and 2006 Negro League inductees are on a second tier, IMO. If you look at the list (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/inducted.htm) of Hall of Famers and how / when people were inducted, you can see an obvious drop off in quality. There were a few good Veterans Committee picks, but on the whole the Hall of Fame would be a better institution if none of them were in vs. the watered down nature of the institution today.

I would vote to abolish the Veterans Committee. You really can't throw their prior inductees out or move their plaques to the basement, but you can stop further dilution of the Hall of Fame by ending the Veterans Committee.

Daver
03-13-2007, 12:37 PM
The Veterans Committee should be abolished. It was established when the Hall first opened to elect 19th Century Executives & Players. It has since become a debacle (starting in 1945-46), inducting at least 50 HOFers who have no business being in the HOF. The Negro League Committee last year was a joke as well.

I consider the BBWAA players voted as one level of the HOF (count the Negro League inductees until 2005 as well). The Veterans Committee and 2006 Negro League inductees are on a second tier, IMO. If you look at the list (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/inducted.htm) of Hall of Famers and how / when people were inducted, you can see an obvious drop off in quality. There were a few good Veterans Committee picks, but on the whole the Hall of Fame would be a better institution if none of them were in vs. the watered down nature of the institution today.

I would vote to abolish the Veterans Committee. You really can't throw their prior inductees out or move their plaques to the basement, but you can stop further dilution of the Hall of Fame by ending the Veterans Committee.

They need to revise the entire voting structure, what they have now is a complete joke, as is the baseball HOF.

jabrch
03-13-2007, 12:38 PM
The Veterans Committee should be abolished. It was established when the Hall first opened to elect 19th Century Executives & Players. It has since become a debacle (starting in 1945-46), inducting at least 50 HOFers who have no business being in the HOF. The Negro League Committee last year was a joke as well.

I consider the BBWAA players voted as one level of the HOF (count the Negro League inductees until 2005 as well). The Veterans Committee and 2006 Negro League inductees are on a second tier, IMO. If you look at the list (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/inducted.htm) of Hall of Famers and how / when people were inducted, you can see an obvious drop off in quality. There were a few good Veterans Committee picks, but on the whole the Hall of Fame would be a better institution if none of them were in vs. the watered down nature of the institution today.

I would vote to abolish the Veterans Committee. You really can't throw their prior inductees out or move their plaques to the basement, but you can stop further dilution of the Hall of Fame by ending the Veterans Committee.


I agree with you 100%. That's so well said. I see no reason anymore for the existance of the VC. Santo, Blyleven, Aparicio whomever... They weren't good enough to get in to the HOF in the first place. Don't let em in now. I know that's how Nellie got in, but screw it.

Look at the last 15 guys the VC (excluding the Negro League Special Commission) let in.
Mazeroski
Hilton Smith
Sparky Anderson
Bid McPhee
Turkey Stearns
Cepeda
Nestor Chylak
Frank Selee
Joe Williams
George Davis
Larry Doby
Lee McPhail
Bullett Rogan
Nellie Fox
Tommy Lasorda

Take out the managers, umpires and executives and you are left with
Bill Mazeroski
Hilton Smith
Bid McPhee
Turkey Stearns
Orlando Cepeda
Joe Williams
George Davis
Larry Doby
Bullett Rogan
Nellie Fox

If I was a HOF voter, there isn't a single guy there that I'd vote in for the merit of their play. Doby maybe would warrant consideration for his contribution to the game, but not his statistics. Fox because I am a totally biased Sox fan (but really his .288/.348/.363 line is very unimpressive)

The VC hasn't put in a single player who BEYOND A DOUBT belongs in the HOF since Hack Wilson in 1979 or Kiki Cuyler in 1968. The best guys the VC has put in were all done in the 40s and 50s. (Chief Bender, Ray Schalk, 3 Finger Brown, Kid Nichols, Ed Walsh, Cap Anson, etc.) They should be shot for putting in Tinker, Evers and Chance all together in 1946. You can argue Chance and Evers, but Joe Tinker sucks. (imagine what BP would say about his .308 obp and .358 slg?)

The good thing about the VC is that the past three times they have made the right call and added NOBODY to the HOF. The bad thing is that I am sure eventually, if given enough chances, they will vote in someone who is completely unworthy. Disband them now.

jabrch
03-13-2007, 12:39 PM
They need to revise the entire voting structure, what they have now is a complete joke, as is the baseball HOF.

Have you ever been to Cooperstown? I think it is one of the coolest places on earth for a baseball fan. I know it has flaws, but the museum (which is what it is) is awesome.

I'd like to fix some problems too with players in it who have no reason to be, but that's not fixable. I wouldn't call the HOF a joke. It aint perfect, but it's an awesome place to visit for a day.

Steelrod
03-13-2007, 12:39 PM
The veterans committee was formed to correct any oversite by the regular vote. I believe that it should be even harder than it is. If a player does not get in in 10 tries, he probably doesn't belong.
I believe that the veterans committee should have the ability to elect a deserving player the first year that the player is in their hands. If they agree with the regular vote, that is it!
The Hall of Fame should maintain very high standards and not put someone in because they haven't done so in a while. It should be only the best of the best~!

Daver
03-13-2007, 12:44 PM
Have you ever been to Cooperstown? I think it is one of the coolest places on earth for a baseball fan. I know it has flaws, but the museum (which is what it is) is awesome.

I'd like to fix some problems too with players in it who have no reason to be, but that's not fixable. I wouldn't call the HOF a joke. It aint perfect, but it's an awesome place to visit for a day.

Yes I have been, I was refering more the powers that be that run it, not the hall itself.

jabrch
03-13-2007, 12:49 PM
Yes I have been, I was refering more the powers that be that run it, not the hall itself.

ok - then I agree with that. That's true for most "governing bodies" of sports leagues/interests. The NCAA is a joke. The office of the commish in Baseball is a joke. David Stern's office is ok. The NFL's commish office has actually been the best of the bunch. As far as HOFs go, I kinda like Canton - they do a really good job (some say too good based on Art Monk's continued ommission) of keeping players out who don't belong. Springfield (Basketball) sucks. I hear the hockey HOF is fine - but I'm not enough a fan to care.

My biggest problem with the Baseball HOF is who is already in, and who might eventually get in. Shut the VC down and I'd be happier. Find a way to get our all the bad Yankees and Dodgers (I'm thinking about Rizzutto and Reese and players of their ilk) and it would be even better.

Railsplitter
03-14-2007, 09:17 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the HOF veterans committee invented to research and idnetify 19th century balplayers deserving of HOF honors?

SouthSide_HitMen
03-14-2007, 12:04 PM
ok - then I agree with that. That's true for most "governing bodies" of sports leagues/interests. The NCAA is a joke. The office of the commish in Baseball is a joke. David Stern's office is ok. The NFL's commish office has actually been the best of the bunch. As far as HOFs go, I kinda like Canton - they do a really good job (some say too good based on Art Monk's continued ommission) of keeping players out who don't belong. Springfield (Basketball) sucks. I hear the hockey HOF is fine - but I'm not enough a fan to care.

My biggest problem with the Baseball HOF is who is already in, and who might eventually get in. Shut the VC down and I'd be happier. Find a way to get our all the bad Yankees and Dodgers (I'm thinking about Rizzutto and Reese and players of their ilk) and it would be even better.

Don't forget all of the players from the 1920s - early 30's inducted for the .300 + batting averages - when the league average was over .300. :rolleyes:

The entire league average by year:

1921 NL .289, AL .292
1922 NL .292, AL .285
1923 NL .286, AL .283
1924 NL .283, AL .290
1925 NL .292, AL .292
1926 NL .280, AL .281
1927 NL .282, AL .286
1928 NL .281, AL .281
1929 NL .294 :rolleyes:, AL .284
1930 NL .303 :rolleyes:, AL .288

Current batting averages (2001 - 2006): NL .259 - .265, AL - .264 - .275 (During our high offensive era and with a DH. .275 was last year, all others were .270 or less). Who cares if you hit .300 in the 1920s - 1930. It would be the equivalent of hitting in the .270s or .280s (NL add 10 points to the AL) today.

The Hall of Fame should be about electing the greatest players from each generation. Players statistics need to be placed in context for the era he played in. Your .300 batting average is pretty weak (below average) when you played in the NL in 1930. Then again, a .290 batting average is excellent when you played in the late 1960s (.243 was the NL average in 1968). Both the BBWAA and Veterans Committee have made poor selections by not putting the statistics of players they elected into proper context.

IndianWhiteSox
03-14-2007, 12:47 PM
I agree with you 100%. That's so well said. I see no reason anymore for the existance of the VC. Santo, Blyleven, Aparicio whomever... They weren't good enough to get in to the HOF in the first place. Don't let em in now. I know that's how Nellie got in, but screw it.

Look at the last 15 guys the VC (excluding the Negro League Special Commission) let in.
Mazeroski
Hilton Smith
Sparky Anderson
Bid McPhee
Turkey Stearns
Cepeda
Nestor Chylak
Frank Selee
Joe Williams
George Davis
Larry Doby
Lee McPhail
Bullett Rogan
Nellie Fox
Tommy Lasorda

Take out the managers, umpires and executives and you are left with
Bill Mazeroski
Hilton Smith
Bid McPhee
Turkey Stearns
Orlando Cepeda
Joe Williams
George Davis
Larry Doby
Bullett Rogan
Nellie Fox

If I was a HOF voter, there isn't a single guy there that I'd vote in for the merit of their play. Doby maybe would warrant consideration for his contribution to the game, but not his statistics. Fox because I am a totally biased Sox fan (but really his .288/.348/.363 line is very unimpressive)

The VC hasn't put in a single player who BEYOND A DOUBT belongs in the HOF since Hack Wilson in 1979 or Kiki Cuyler in 1968. The best guys the VC has put in were all done in the 40s and 50s. (Chief Bender, Ray Schalk, 3 Finger Brown, Kid Nichols, Ed Walsh, Cap Anson, etc.) They should be shot for putting in Tinker, Evers and Chance all together in 1946. You can argue Chance and Evers, but Joe Tinker sucks. (imagine what BP would say about his .308 obp and .358 slg?)

The good thing about the VC is that the past three times they have made the right call and added NOBODY to the HOF. The bad thing is that I am sure eventually, if given enough chances, they will vote in someone who is completely unworthy. Disband them now.

:?:
Didn't Aparicio get inducted back in 1984?

jabrch
03-14-2007, 01:37 PM
:?:
Didn't Aparicio get inducted back in 1984?

My bad... not sure what I was thinking.