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View Full Version : What is Rogers Smoking?: Crede/Fields for Lieber?


TomBradley72
03-12-2007, 10:50 AM
This has to go in "Phil Rogers as GM" Hall of Fame (right up there with his article proposing we acquire Rafael Palmeiro):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-070311rogersinside,1,1797447.column?coll=chi-sportscolumnistfront-hed

Crede or Fields for the 36 y.o Lieber? (who can't beat out Eaton(7-4,5.12 ERA in 2006 w/Texas) for a slot in the rotation)
Machowiak/MacDougal AND prospects? (so we sacrifice our setup man, and our bench for a 5th starter)Of all the things you could write about the White Sox in spring training...this is headline worthy stuff? Incredible.

SoxFan78
03-12-2007, 10:53 AM
Yes, that is insane, but after reading closer, it was for Lieber and Rowand. Not just Lieber, so Phil Rogers is just half insane, not fully!

This has to go in "Phil Rogers as GM" Hall of Fame (right up there with his article proposing we acquire Rafael Palmeiro):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-070311rogersinside,1,1797447.column?coll=chi-sportscolumnistfront-hed

Crede or Fields for the 36 y.o Lieber? (who can't beat out Eaton(7-4,5.12 ERA in 2006 w/Texas) for a slot in the rotation)
Machowiak/MacDougal AND prospects? (so we sacrifice our setup man, and our bench for a 5th starter)Of all the things you could write about the White Sox in spring training...this is headline worthy stuff? Incredible.

Sargeant79
03-12-2007, 11:01 AM
Yes, that is insane, but after reading closer, it was for Lieber and Rowand. Not just Lieber, so Phil Rogers is just half insane, not fully!

No, no...I think that still qualifies as fully insane.

soxtalker
03-12-2007, 11:02 AM
I don't think that he's really advocating such a trade -- at least not strongly. But it is an interesting thought that KW may be looking at someone else in the Philly organization other than Rowand. The assumption that most seemed to jump to last week when the Sox were scouting Philly's games was that Rowand was the main target. But maybe he is looking at Lieber. No one has really nailed down that 5th starter position.

TomBradley72
03-12-2007, 11:17 AM
I don't think that he's really advocating such a trade -- at least not strongly. But it is an interesting thought that KW may be looking at someone else in the Philly organization other than Rowand.

Maybe so...but the names he throws around as "trade bait" to bring Lieber/Rowand to the team seem crazy. I'd take Floyd/Danks/Haeger over Adam Eaton...and Lieber can't beat out Eaton. If we ever consider trading Crede or Fields...I sure hope we can do better than the Phillies 6th starter.

soxtalker
03-12-2007, 11:47 AM
Maybe so...but the names he throws around as "trade bait" to bring Lieber/Rowand to the team seem crazy. I'd take Floyd/Danks/Haeger over Adam Eaton...and Lieber can't beat out Eaton. If we ever consider trading Crede or Fields...I sure hope we can do better than the Phillies 6th starter.

I don't like the thought of giving up Fields for these guys at all. But if Kenny is kicking the tires -- and it sure seems like he is doing that for some player or players in the Phillies ST camp -- I wonder what the Phillies think that they need/want for these players. The way Rogers phrased things it didn't sound to me like he was throwing out names of players he'd be happy to see traded. Rather, it sounded like those names were the possible cost that Philly might be expecting in return.

jackbrohamer
03-12-2007, 12:04 PM
Rogers absolutely hates the Garcia and McCarthy trades and thinks the Sox need to spend more money on pitchers. And he Will. Not. Let. It. Go. I have rarely seen a columnist carry a beef as far as he has this offseason

Dan Mega
03-12-2007, 12:07 PM
Yes, that is insane, but after reading closer, it was for Lieber and Rowand. Not just Lieber, so Phil Rogers is just half insane, not fully!

No, no...I think that still qualifies as fully insane.

I second Sargeant on this. Giving up anything for an overrated outfielder and Jon freaking Lieber is too much.

Vernam
03-12-2007, 12:16 PM
Yes, that is insane, but after reading closer, it was for Lieber and Rowand. Not just Lieber, so Phil Rogers is just half insane, not fully!I think that makes it TWICE as crazy! :nuts: Rogers has officially become the baseball version of Sam Smith.

Vernam

maurice
03-12-2007, 12:20 PM
At least Smith's crazy trades sometimes have great players going to the Bulls (often Kevin Garnett). Rogers has us trading valuable pieces for the Phil's 4th OF and 6th starter.
:rolleyes:

ondafarm
03-12-2007, 04:46 PM
I think that makes it TWICE as crazy! :nuts: Rogers has officially become the baseball version of Sam Smith.

Vernam

I didn't know he wasn't.

Incidently, perhaps half-insane isn't quite the phrase I'd use, but at least a half-wit.

UserNameBlank
03-12-2007, 08:36 PM
Like Lieber at the end of his contract, Rogers should retire at this point.

Lieber would be a nice option for 5th starter if we didn't have kids who deserve it more. Rowand would be a nice CF/4th OF if we didn't have Anderson or Terrero, again kids who deserve it more.

For Lieber and Rowand - and I believe that is like 15mil right there - they would be lucky to get A prospect. Notice I said A, as in singular. This is not the NBA where large expiring contracts are valuable.

Rogers is an absolute moron and apparently so are the Phillies, wanting a setup man for Rowand and thinking they could get Rios for the same package of Aaron and Lieber.

Lieber will be a Philly because no one else is stupid enough to take him. If they eat a couple million they could probably get a decent middle reliever and a low level prospect, ditto for Rowand if they eat most of his salary. If teams really wanted Rowand and Lieber they could have picked up Erstad and Redman at like 4 mil tops, together.

**Edit: I don't think the Phils realize that Floyd, Thome and cash for Garcia, Rowand, and Haigwood was a steal because Freddy is the only guy they got from the Sox who has any value. Meanwhile the Sox got a 40HR lefty and a prospect with high upside.

Tragg
03-12-2007, 10:20 PM
Good gracious, we're not giving up our best trading chit (top 3B prospect) for mediocre veterans like a 36 year old 6th starter and Rowand.
That's completely ludicrous.
No one will give top talent for that garb - especially since Philly is getting desparate.

Our 5th starter candidates are far more promising than they were 2001-2004 - we have more of them and better candidates. Further, we will need young pitchers soon, we have a lot, so give them their shot. Finally, in the past (2001-04), we backed these young pitchers up with Rick White, Alan Embree and Mike Jackson.....we've progressed since then.

Floyd, Danks, the guy Rivaldi is raving about on the minor league board - one of them will get the job done (if not more).

beckett21
03-12-2007, 10:29 PM
Absolutely worst idea ever. If not, pretty close.

JB98
03-12-2007, 11:33 PM
I think I'd give a mid-level prospect for Lieber.

Crede or Fields? That's just ridiculous.

ondafarm
03-12-2007, 11:59 PM
I think we should start rumors of trades of sportswriters, sending certain ones to the minors and passing out 50 game suspension to others.

Rogers would barely make my AA roster.

Moronotti would be banned for life.

SBSoxFan
03-13-2007, 08:17 AM
:hijacked:

Sorry to hijack the thread, but it's not worthy of a new post! Did anyone see his article (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-070312rogers,1,1482277.column?coll=cs-home-utility)today on the Tigers? Good God, Phil, give it a break! Did he write anything nearly as glowing about the 2006 White Sox?

Jurr
03-13-2007, 08:35 AM
Absolutely worst idea ever. If not, pretty close.
I'm not sure what happened to Rogers. I remember him being a little brighter than this.

soxtalker
03-13-2007, 08:42 AM
:hijacked:

Sorry to hijack the thread, but it's not worthy of a new post! Did anyone see his article (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-070312rogers,1,1482277.column?coll=cs-home-utility)today on the Tigers? Good God, Phil, give it a break! Did he write anything nearly as glowing about the 2006 White Sox?

You're complaining about that article? This is exactly the sort of thing we should be looking to the writers like Rogers to do -- give us some idea of what the other teams are doing. It doesn't mean that he's right, but it sure is better than relying upon ST W-L record. It helps to have veteran writers like Rogers go into the other camps, talk to the players, and talk to their counterparts on the papers in the other teams' cities. I can't say I like what he wrote -- but that's because the Tigers sound awfully good.

crazyozzie02
03-13-2007, 10:23 AM
I think we should start rumors of trades of sportswriters, sending certain ones to the minors and passing out 50 game suspension to others.

Rogers would barely make my AA roster.

Moronotti would be banned for life.

Agreed, but i think that we might want to send Rogers to A-Rookie Class just to straighten him out. Then AA might be a choice

SBSoxFan
03-13-2007, 10:55 AM
You're complaining about that article? This is exactly the sort of thing we should be looking to the writers like Rogers to do -- give us some idea of what the other teams are doing. It doesn't mean that he's right, but it sure is better than relying upon ST W-L record. It helps to have veteran writers like Rogers go into the other camps, talk to the players, and talk to their counterparts on the papers in the other teams' cities. I can't say I like what he wrote -- but that's because the Tigers sound awfully good.

My complaint goes along the usual bias line, although I'm not convinced a Chicago sportswriter's job is to "scout" other teams either. As you say, the Tigers sound awfully good. Is that because Phil said so? Did Phil write such rave reviews a year ago at this time about the 2006 Chicago White Sox, a team coming off a world series victory and adding Jim Thome and Javier Vazquez? I honestly don't know.

I'm expecting more of a drop off in Detroit's pitching this year. Obviously Phil isn't, even though we have 2006 as a barometer, and that being from a staff that didn't exceed their innings near as much as Detroit's did last year. Why can't Bonderman pull a Buehrle? Why does Maroth being healthy guarantee he'll do well? Why won't this be the year Kenny Rogers finally gets old? People bash the Sox because their question marks are expected to be a detriment, but all of Detroit's are expected to be an asset. It just sounds like all the reasons Detroit will be even better this year is all the same reasons the Sox ended up down last year.

Time will tell ...

soxtalker
03-13-2007, 12:06 PM
My complaint goes along the usual bias line, although I'm not convinced a Chicago sportswriter's job is to "scout" other teams either. As you say, the Tigers sound awfully good. Is that because Phil said so? Did Phil write such rave reviews a year ago at this time about the 2006 Chicago White Sox, a team coming off a world series victory and adding Jim Thome and Javier Vazquez? I honestly don't know.

I'm expecting more of a drop off in Detroit's pitching this year. Obviously Phil isn't, even though we have 2006 as a barometer, and that being from a staff that didn't exceed their innings near as much as Detroit's did last year. Why can't Bonderman pull a Buehrle? Why does Maroth being healthy guarantee he'll do well? Why won't this be the year Kenny Rogers finally gets old? People bash the Sox because their question marks are expected to be a detriment, but all of Detroit's are expected to be an asset. It just sounds like all the reasons Detroit will be even better this year is all the same reasons the Sox ended up down last year.

Time will tell ...

I appreciate that you might not agree with Rogers' analysis. In fact, I happen to have been much more in favor of the trades (Garcia, McCarthy) than Rogers was. But getting his opinion gives us some information that we don't otherwise have.

People seem to dismiss what he has to say almost immediately lately. I just don't understand it. Debate his analysis by all means. But he's been covering the Sox and baseball for a long time. It doesn't mean he's right, but there's value in that experience.

And as far as him bashing the Sox, he has every incentive for the Sox to be a good team. If he's right about the concerns that he's been raising, and the Sox fail badly, there will be a lot fewer people reading his columns. I just don't see what he gains if he's right.

maurice
03-13-2007, 12:13 PM
My take on Roger's latest. He's spent the last 3 months bitching that everything will go wrong for the Sox and paying an absurd amount of attention to what may or may not happen after the 2007 season and even after the 2008 season. When the subject changes to the Tigers, it's all rainbows and lollypops.

He acknowledges that it's reasonable to expect the Tigers young pitchers "to show some wear," but considers a meaningful dropoff to be "wishful thinking." The most damning quote:
[T]here's no reason Kenny Rogers, Nate Robertson and closer Todd Jones can't duplicate their performances from last season. Plus, fifth starter Mike Maroth is healthy. Add Gary Sheffield and a full season of Sean Casey to a lineup that already included a full complement of impact players [] and a deep cast of role players [] and the Tigers look like a good bet for another season of 90-plus wins.

Let's take these nonsensical claims one at a time:
- Rogers went 17-8 with a 3.84 ERA. He's been about that good 3 of the last 8 years. The rest of the time, he's a > 4 ERA pitcher. He's 42 years old and will have a harder time hiding his use of illegal substances this year. Could he repeat? Sure . . . but there are reasons to doubt it.
- Robertson had a career year at the age of 29 in terms of wins, ERA, and OPS against. He's a 4.56 career ERA pitcher and his collateral stats have been in decline. Could he repeat? Sure . . . but there are reasons to doubt it.
- Jones is coming off of solid back-to-back seasons. Before that, he posted 3 4.something ERA seasons and a 7.08 ERA season. He turns 39 next month. Could he repeat? Sure . . . but there are reasons to doubt it.
- Maroth may or may not be healthy. He only pitched 53.2 innings last year and spent 3 months on the DL, following elbow surgery. A healthy Maroth has a 4.78 career ERA.
- Sheffield played 39 games last year and spent about 4 months on the DL. He's 38 years old and playing for his 7th MLB franchise, because nobody wants to keep this ******* around.
- Casey isn't very good. He posted a sub-.800 OPS for 4 of the last 5 seasons.He'd be lucky to hit 15 HR playing half his games at Comerica, and this is their starting 1B?!?
- Everybody forgets that the Tiger's early wins were powered by Shelton's early-season, Cinderella performance (10 HR, 1.187 OPS in April). There will be no repeat of that this year.
- Granderson and Thames also played way above their heads in the early part of the season, before dropping off a cliff in the 2nd half. Granderson's AVE dropped 40 pts and his OPS dropped 127 pts. Thames' AVE dropped 98 pts and his OPS dropped almost 300 pts.
- Ordonez, Polanco, and Guillen all are major injury risks. Lord know what kind of alien technology is holding Maggs' knee together, and the other 2 are on the DL every single year.
- Rodriguez may be their best all-around player, but he's 35 and lost a ton of power when he stopped taking his special vitamins. One of these years, he's gonna hit the wall hard. It's not easy squatting for a living, once you become eligible for AARP.

JB98
03-13-2007, 07:17 PM
I think we should start rumors of trades of sportswriters, sending certain ones to the minors and passing out 50 game suspension to others.

Rogers would barely make my AA roster.

Moronotti would be banned for life.

I think I should be traded to the Tribune. :cool:

Oblong
03-13-2007, 09:20 PM
I appreciate that you might not agree with Rogers' analysis. In fact, I happen to have been much more in favor of the trades (Garcia, McCarthy) than Rogers was. But getting his opinion gives us some information that we don't otherwise have.

People seem to dismiss what he has to say almost immediately lately. I just don't understand it. Debate his analysis by all means. But he's been covering the Sox and baseball for a long time. It doesn't mean he's right, but there's value in that experience.

And as far as him bashing the Sox, he has every incentive for the Sox to be a good team. If he's right about the concerns that he's been raising, and the Sox fail badly, there will be a lot fewer people reading his columns. I just don't see what he gains if he's right.

I'm predicting Verlander to struggle. I think Bonderman steps it up even moree. Robertson will be the same. He pitched fine last year but his W-L didn't show it becuse of poor run support. I don't know what to think about Kenny Rogers or Maroth. Soft tossing lefties are hard to pinpoint. I've also been suggesting on my Tiger board that the Tigers should trade Zumaya because I don't think his value will be any higher than it is now. How many young guys like that survive 3 or 4 years as a top reliever? Only ones I can think of are HOFers like Rivera and Hoffman and it's premature to think a 21 year old is a future HOFer. Most good relievers seem to come out of nowhere in their mid to late 20s. That's just my take. It's pretty conventional to what other tiger followers are saying so that means it'll probably be all wrong.

SABRSox
03-13-2007, 09:29 PM
I'm predicting Verlander to struggle. I think Bonderman steps it up even moree. Robertson will be the same. He pitched fine last year but his W-L didn't show it becuse of poor run support. I don't know what to think about Kenny Rogers or Maroth. Soft tossing lefties are hard to pinpoint. I've also been suggesting on my Tiger board that the Tigers should trade Zumaya because I don't think his value will be any higher than it is now. How many young guys like that survive 3 or 4 years as a top reliever? Only ones I can think of are HOFers like Rivera and Hoffman and it's premature to think a 21 year old is a future HOFer. Most good relievers seem to come out of nowhere in their mid to late 20s. That's just my take. It's pretty conventional to what other tiger followers are saying so that means it'll probably be all wrong.

I agree about Bonderman, he's going to be really good once again this year. Verlander I don't see struggling. He'll do just fine. Maybe not quite as good as last season, but he'll still be solid.

As for trading Zumaya, that's crazy talk. One of these days (most likely sooner rather than later) Todd Jones isn't going to be able to get hitters out, and Zumaya is the closer in waiting.

bigfoot
03-13-2007, 10:37 PM
PRogers , My guess is that he:

A) Took the family to DisneyWorld and wrote the article as a part of the tax write-off for the Cubune.
or
B) Made a phone call to another writer at Tiger camp and swapped story-lines.

Should this be a poll? :rolleyes:

UserNameBlank
03-13-2007, 11:07 PM
I agree about Bonderman, he's going to be really good once again this year. Verlander I don't see struggling. He'll do just fine. Maybe not quite as good as last season, but he'll still be solid.

As for trading Zumaya, that's crazy talk. One of these days (most likely sooner rather than later) Todd Jones isn't going to be able to get hitters out, and Zumaya is the closer in waiting.

It depends on what the return for Zumaya would be. Look at what the Pirates got for Gonzalez. Had the Tigers gotten LaRoche from Atlanta for example, how much better would they be with him instead of Casey?

Relievers in baseball are the biggest crapshoot in sports IMO and are a lot easier to come by than a power hitting position player. There are always minor league invitees, Rule 5 picks, change of scenery guys, etc. that succeed for a couple of years with a team and then drop off, and when they do you always think back and wonder what you could hvae gotten for them at their peak. Just think of the kind of package Marte could have brought back after 2003, or Cotts+Politte after 2005. While you certainly want to hold on to the ones with Zumaya-like stuff, I think if some team offers you an allstar caliber position player you can't pass it up.

maurice
03-14-2007, 11:29 AM
From today's Gonzalez article (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-0703140298mar14,1,4700203.story?coll=chi-sportswhitesox-hed) on the #5 starter slot:
Guillen said the Sox had no trades in the works....

tick53
03-14-2007, 12:32 PM
this guy's on crack...I wish I had a job like that.

IndianWhiteSox
03-14-2007, 01:00 PM
this guy's on crack...I wish I had a job like that.

No, he's just under the influence of Old Style and Pot!


:smokin::drunken: (http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://bouncerblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/0418062354.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bouncerblog.com/category/beer-drinking/&h=960&w=1280&sz=203&hl=en&start=16&tbnid=vx4j25uB4_LntM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dold%2Bstyle%2Bbeer%26svnum%3D10%26hl% 3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG)
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*As he looks for the bong and the Old Style*
:bong: (http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://bouncerblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/0418062354.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bouncerblog.com/category/beer-drinking/&h=960&w=1280&sz=203&hl=en&start=16&tbnid=vx4j25uB4_LntM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dold%2Bstyle%2Bbeer%26svnum%3D10%26hl% 3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG)http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:vx4j25uB4_LntM:http://bouncerblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/0418062354.jpg (http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://bouncerblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/0418062354.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bouncerblog.com/category/beer-drinking/&h=960&w=1280&sz=203&hl=en&start=16&tbnid=vx4j25uB4_LntM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dold%2Bstyle%2Bbeer%26svnum%3D10%26hl% 3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG)


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