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voodoochile
03-18-2002, 02:24 PM
Okay, I am not panicing, but I do thing the Sox could use another veteran starter. That would allow them to keep Glover in the pen and Rauch in the minors. Besides, one more veteran starter and the Sox could be pennant contenders this year.

Here's what I would be willing to trade:

Garland (Getting tired of the walks and quality gets quality)
Rowand (No slot next year - Harris can replace him this year)
Parque (Better pitchers in the minors - will he ever be able to throw 90+ again?)
Clayton (goes without saying - but are their any takers?)
Howry (No fastball = no job)

For some combination of those players and maybe a prospect or two from the minors, the Sox should be able to acquire a veteran starter (like Ritchie) without damaging the core of players they need to stay in the playoff hunt.

Now the question becomes - who is available?

THE_HOOTER
03-18-2002, 02:33 PM
One of the guys from L.A. should be available.

This might sound desperate, but Howry might be enough to get Tavarez from the Cubs.

I know he is an ass, but he can pitch well for a half a season anyway.

Just a thought.

Paulwny
03-18-2002, 02:40 PM
They should trade Howry soon, with every appearence on the mound the value of gas goes down.

MattSharp
03-18-2002, 02:44 PM
Ok. Trading Garland is a BAD idea. He is going to be a key pitcher down the road. He is very young and I think you should give a chance. Second, why would we want to move a young pitcher for a scrappy veteran. The Sox would have to give up some key prospects to get anyone good.

Another Todd Ritchie is not the answer. We gave up FAR too much for him, so why should be overpay for mediocrity.

I would rather they wait and give their guys a chance first.

I agree that Rowand, Parque, and Clayton are expendable, but they aren't worth a whole lot. Now...

Another trade similar to the Snyder/Navarro for Eldred/Valentin would be great.

Trade Parque/Clayton for a one or two mediorce guys, yes. But getting rid of young guys for old guys isnt gonna work.

cheeses_h_rice
03-18-2002, 03:02 PM
I really think the club should wait at least a month into the season to see how things progress. Who knows? We might get lucky. I'd hate to see us get rid of someone only to see that person kick ass with another squad.

OfficerKarkovice
03-18-2002, 03:26 PM
That Rowand for Corey Lidle trade is looking nice right about now.

duke of dorwood
03-18-2002, 03:32 PM
My idea is this-get a pitching coach-where these guys can throw strikes again like they did in the minors.

:nardi

You party pooper

czalgosz
03-18-2002, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
That Rowand for Corey Lidle trade is looking nice right about now.

I don't know - I still think Cory Lidle is a flash in the pan.

Another veteran starter would indeed be nice, but I would hesitate to give up anything of value for such a starter, especially as the Sox are poised to contend seriously in 2003 and beyond.

As much as I am nervous about handing Jon Garland a starting job, and as much as he probably isn't ready to give 200 quality innings, he is only 22 years old (of an age where a lot of college pitchers are just entering the draft) and I think he'll be at least a league-average pitcher, barring injury, down the road. He has nothing left to learn in the minors, and sticking him in the back of the bullpen won't do much to help his development. The Sox should just let him tough out this season.

Danny Wright has shown flashes of good-to-great stuff, and he might be ahead of Garland on the depth charts right now. He could probably use some AAA time, as he doesn't have any, and he's pretty far from unhittable, but he wouldn't be any worse than what a lot of teams have at the back of their rotations.

If Jim Parque is healthy, he's be a very good fourth starter, as long as the Sox middle relief sorts itself out. He showed in 2000 that, when backed by a strong bullpen, he can be a nice little starter. It's when you start expecting 7+ innings out of him that you start to get in trouble.

Gary Glover really belongs in the bullpen, filling the role that Sean Lowe did last year. If he's starting, that should only be for emergencies.

If Rocky Biddle was healthy, he could answer a lot of questions. He would make a nice third starter, allowing Garland to be 5th starter and sending Wright back to AAA. Is Biddle out for the entire season?

If what was rumored was true, and the Dodgers offered Eric Gagne straight up for Bob Howry, the Sox were silly to turn that down.

But, all that said, I don't want the Sox to start making panic moves. Now is not the time for that. I don't think anyone will run away from the Sox in the division - there will be plenty of time to see how things shake out before trading prospects and young talent.

baggio202
03-18-2002, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
That Rowand for Corey Lidle trade is looking nice right about now.

the trade that i wanted and is looking real good right now is the gagne for hwry trade...i dont know which gm backed out but if it was williams...someone needs to kick his ass :smile: ...anyways...i agree with czalgosz...if we were to make a trade now kw would really get taken to the cleaners..we look alot more desperate now than we did when we made the ritchie trade....i thin kwe are stuck for now...hopefully a pennant contender has their SS go down early in the season and they become desperate for a guy like clayton..then we can deal from a level playing field..

Soxboyrob
03-18-2002, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Ok. Trading Garland is a BAD idea. He is going to be a key pitcher down the road. He is very young and I think you should give a chance.

How much of a chance do we give the guy? Agreed he's still young but he still wets his pants every time he's on the mound. While I've liked Garland's progress, I fear that he'll actually become good at about the time he's leaving the team via free agency. The thing that bothers me most about Garland is how few K's he gets. There are very very few pitchers in history that were dominant or even good without averaging more than 5 K's per 9 innings. He throws the ball into the middle 90's, so why doesn't he get more K's?

Soxboyrob
03-18-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz

If Jim Parque is healthy, he's be a very good fourth starter, as long as the Sox middle relief sorts itself out. He showed in 2000 that, when backed by a strong bullpen, he can be a nice little starter. It's when you start expecting 7+ innings out of him that you start to get in trouble.

Gary Glover really belongs in the bullpen, filling the role that Sean Lowe did last year. If he's starting, that should only be for emergencies.


It should really just come down to who gives us the best chance of getting us into the sixth or seventh inning with a lead. Right now, that's Glover. Glover has good velocity, excellent command and changes speeds well, especially when he's throwing his curve for a strike. Why just arbitrarily put Glover in the pen when Parque has looked like a guy that belongs there? I'd give Glover a chance to show whether he can go 6-7 innings per start before banishing him to the pen. Right now, we don't have enough starters not to count Cory as one of them.

bjmarte
03-18-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


How much of a chance do we give the guy? Agreed he's still young but he still wets his pants every time he's on the mound. While I've liked Garland's progress, I fear that he'll actually become good at about the time he's leaving the team via free agency. The thing that bothers me most about Garland is how few K's he gets. There are very very few pitchers in history that were dominant or even good without averaging more than 5 K's per 9 innings. He throws the ball into the middle 90's, so why doesn't he get more K's?
Well I think we should give him as much much chance as we gave Kip Wells, the king of pants crappers, last year. I think Garland has more potential than he does, spring training is too soon to be giving up.

cheeses_h_rice
03-18-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by bjmarte
Kip Wells, the king of pants crappers

Frame-worthy, that quote is. Frame-worthy. :) :)

bjmarte
03-18-2002, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice


Frame-worthy, that quote is. Frame-worthy. :) :)

Thanks. Good to know I amuse someone besides myself. Not that it would make a difference :D:

MattSharp
03-18-2002, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


How much of a chance do we give the guy? Agreed he's still young but he still wets his pants every time he's on the mound. While I've liked Garland's progress, I fear that he'll actually become good at about the time he's leaving the team via free agency. The thing that bothers me most about Garland is how few K's he gets. There are very very few pitchers in history that were dominant or even good without averaging more than 5 K's per 9 innings. He throws the ball into the middle 90's, so why doesn't he get more K's?

I agree totally, but wouldn't you rather have Jon Garland than another Todd Ritchie?

kermittheefrog
03-18-2002, 06:37 PM
I really wish we had a Leo Mazzone, Joe Kerrigan, Bryan, Price Vern Ruhle type pitching coach. If we did I'd say get Esteban Loaiza from Toronto. He's known for his good stuff dispite mediocre numbers and he's played on bad teams. I'd like to take a chance on backing him with good coaching and defense.

Randar68
03-18-2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I'd like to take a chance on backing him with good coaching and defense.

Well, I guess you answered part 1a) Why the Sox won't get Loaiza

Chisox_cali
03-18-2002, 06:58 PM
I got a weird feeling that KW is gonna go out and get El Duque or something
:KW
"We got this guy 'El Duque' and he's only 32!"

RichH55
03-18-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
I got a weird feeling that KW is gonna go out and get El Duque or something
:KW
"We got this guy 'El Duque' and he's only 32!" \\\\



Well if El Duque's contract is over after the year and either not that much or the yankees are willing to take some of it on, then dealing fringe prospects for him wouldnt be a bad idea.....Of course if any of the above assumptions arent true then you might have some issues....El Duque has been pitching well IIRC and has shown some fire this spring(near brawl stuff)....and Im not sold on our starters after the first two, so why not El Duque?

RichH55
03-18-2002, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I don't know - I still think Cory Lidle is a flash in the pan.

Another veteran starter would indeed be nice, but I would hesitate to give up anything of value for such a starter, especially as the Sox are poised to contend seriously in 2003 and beyond.

.


Lidle would look real nice now, its not like Rowand is a proven commidity and our starting pitching looks like it will drive many of the youngsters to an early grave or make father time actually catch up with the likes of West:) Plus Lidle isnt that old either so he will help for the next few years not just this year.....Im hoping Rauch makes the team, not as a 3rd starter but as 5th he could efinately grow without a ton of pressure

doublem23
03-18-2002, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Im hoping Rauch makes the team, not as a 3rd starter but as 5th he could efinately grow without a ton of pressure

Regardless of where Rauch is, if he makes the team, there will be a ton of pressure on him.

SOXit2EM
03-18-2002, 10:45 PM
Me personally, am not in a rush to see KW pull off another questionable move. Unless he can pull the trigger on getting a stud pitcher. I think we should be able to hang in there until the Allstar break. After that lets see where were at........I would hate to see us give up a couple could-be studs to get a mediocore player.

Vsahajpal
03-18-2002, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Well, I guess you answered part 1a) Why the Sox won't get Loaiza

I think it has more to do with the fact that he sucks. Chris Carpenter would be a better choice, not only is he 4 years younger, he's about $3 MM cheaper.

kermittheefrog
03-18-2002, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


I think it has more to do with the fact that he sucks. Chris Carpenter would be a better choice, not only is he 4 years younger, he's about $3 MM cheaper.

And you know JP Ricciardi is iching to deal Carpenter.

bjmarte
03-18-2002, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by SOXit2EM
Me personally, am not in a rush to see KW pull off another questionable move. Unless he can pull the trigger on getting a stud pitcher. I think we should be able to hang in there until the Allstar break. After that lets see where were at........I would hate to see us give up a couple could-be studs to get a mediocore player.

I'm with you 100%. I say we hang with what we've got and see what comes of it by the break.

voodoochile
03-19-2002, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte


I'm with you 100%. I say we hang with what we've got and see what comes of it by the break.

probably the best solution, but if the right offer comes along, I wouldn't hesitate to deal to land a veteran starter - has to be a top of the rotation guy though.

As I said in the starter to this thread, I would deal Garland over any of the other pitchers we have right now - because he seems the most expendable with the most return value. I do not want to trade Rauch or Wright.

Vsahajpal
03-19-2002, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


And you know JP Ricciardi is iching to deal Carpenter.

He may or may not be itching to deal Carpenter, I don't know what he's thinking. But Loaiza isn't worth it, not for his productivity (or lack therof) at that price.

Mathew
03-19-2002, 01:12 AM
If what was rumored was true, and the Dodgers offered Eric Gagne straight up for Bob Howry, the Sox were silly to turn that down.



Gotta love those Canadians?

Mathew
03-19-2002, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


It should really just come down to who gives us the best chance of getting us into the sixth or seventh inning with a lead. Right now, that's Glover. Glover has good velocity, excellent command and changes speeds well, especially when he's throwing his curve for a strike. Why just arbitrarily put Glover in the pen when Parque has looked like a guy that belongs there? I'd give Glover a chance to show whether he can go 6-7 innings per start before banishing him to the pen. Right now, we don't have enough starters not to count Cory as one of them.

Four months ago wasn't Parque Happey to go to the pen? He was glad to do whatever was good for the team? Why not now?