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FP_sox
03-06-2007, 03:25 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2789635&teamId=4&sport=mlb

Mr.1Dog
03-06-2007, 03:29 PM
Interesting... I wonder what the terms of the contract are going to be.

chisoxmike
03-06-2007, 03:31 PM
Interesting... I wonder what the terms of the contract are going to be.

...don't pitch like ****. :dunno:

I wonder if he'll have incentives for every game he pitches after the sixth inning.

I hope KW is smart about this, Vazquez is nothing more than a .500 pitcher. Always has been.

DumpJerry
03-06-2007, 03:35 PM
Maybe he'll be getting Mark Prior 2008 money.

ewokpelts
03-06-2007, 03:47 PM
dosent he have a few years left in hsi deal?

Flight #24
03-06-2007, 03:48 PM
Anyone notice that the pic of Vaz has a caption "Pronger"?:?:

I can only imagine this will be at a good rate for the Sox, and hopefully will provide an example for Burls &/or maybe JG, as the JG deal appeared to do for Jose last offseason. Plus it'll forestall some of the "throw it all away and go with kids" angst in the press, which while meaningless - is annoying.

cheeses_h_rice
03-06-2007, 03:49 PM
Three years?!? And we have no idea what he's going to deliver this year. I hope this contract is stuffed to the gills with incentives with not much guaranteed money...

churlish
03-06-2007, 03:49 PM
With the stuff Vazquez has, there's always that hope that he'll figure it out later in his career, like a Curt Schilling type.

If the terms are reasonable, I think it's a great decision to keep a starter for the long haul.

WhiteSoxFan84
03-06-2007, 03:58 PM
If the deal is 3 years and between $21-$24 mill, I like it. He's a very servicable 3rd, 4th, or 5th starter. He has the stuff of an ace, but doesn't perform like one. In Vazquez, you know what you'll get. In guys like Gavin Floyd, John Danks, etc., you have no idea. And yes, Vazquez will have his horrible outtings with a disasterous 6th inning, but he'll also give you a lights out outting from time to time that keeps hope alive as far as him being a reliable pitcher.

And for those hoping this will get Mark Buehrle to re-sign, I think you're sadly mistaken. If anything, this just soldified that Buehrle is gone after this season if not before the trade deadline. KW now has the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th starters from this year coming back next year and will not break the bank to keep Buehrle around.

FP_sox
03-06-2007, 04:02 PM
"Pronger"?:?:

I saw that too. Maybe this Pronger guy can pitch past the 6th inning. :redneck

BeviBall!
03-06-2007, 04:08 PM
We won't give Freddy, a proven big game pitcher an extension, but we'll bend over backwards for a 4-inning wonder. I'll take door #3, Tom.

HotelWhiteSox
03-06-2007, 04:15 PM
3 years, $34.5 mil

Source - Hawk

Crede_Fan
03-06-2007, 04:16 PM
3 years 35 million per Hawk & DJ

UserNameBlank
03-06-2007, 04:17 PM
Umm, I like the signing but why are they refusing to negotiate with Mark, JD, and Tadahito?

cheeses_h_rice
03-06-2007, 04:17 PM
3 years, $34.5 mil

Source - Hawk

Oh. My. ****ing. God.

You have GOT to be ****ting me.

Does Vazquez have photos of KW in a "delicate" situation, or what?

:angry:

southsideirish71
03-06-2007, 04:20 PM
For all of you people who think that Freddy would of lined up for the Gill Meche money that Vazquez just took, I suggest some reality for you. Freddy is going to get paid mad money, probably by the Mets because he is a playoff guy. He wasnt going to take a 3 year deal, if he would of, he would be here right now. BTW Buerhle wont take a 3 year deal also.

veeter
03-06-2007, 04:21 PM
For some reason, they love this guy. I wish they'd have traded him to Houston for Hirsh, insetad of offering Garland. That kid looks awesome. But KW and Ozzy have to live with this decsion.

rainbow6
03-06-2007, 04:21 PM
Sox fans can stop making fun at the Cubs for throwing insane contracts at pitchers with losing records...

I hope he proves the naysayers (including me) wrong.

Oh. My. ****ing. God.

You have GOT to be ****ting me.

Does Vazquez have photos of KW in a "delicate" situation, or what?

:angry:

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 04:22 PM
3 years 35 million per Hawk & DJ

Hmm, not sure how I feel about this yet...

Navarro's Talent
03-06-2007, 04:23 PM
Wow, that's a lot of money to be giving to a player who isn't a sure bet. KW better hope Vazquez delivers because no team is going to want to pick-up this contract if he turns out to be a bust.

oeo
03-06-2007, 04:24 PM
Hmm, not sure how I feel about this yet...

Me neither. I'm not going to freak out because this is what the market is for a pitcher like Javy. I think Javy will have a monster season this year, though, and this could turn out to be a steal in the next couple of years.

spiffie
03-06-2007, 04:24 PM
Sox fans can stop making fun at the Cubs for throwing insane contracts at pitchers with losing records...

I hope he proves the naysayers (including me) wrong.
You are so off-base. The Cubs threw tons of money at ****ty pitchers with losing records. We just signed a market-level contract with a pitcher with ace-level stuff who is ready to settle in and win 18-22 games this year. You forget, the Cubs don't have Don Cooper working with pitchers and Kenny Williams making the decisions. Those two things make any comparison moot.

nysox35
03-06-2007, 04:25 PM
Hmm, not sure how I feel about this yet...

Yeah, that is exaclty where I'm at.

I mean, I like the fact that some of the uncertainty for 2008 and 2009 is gone, but the $ does seem high. I mean, this is more than Garland's and Contreras' extensions went for. I realize that this is after the insane market that surfaced this offseason, but it does seem a bit high to me at first glance.

It also makes me wonder about Buehrle. I tend to agree with someone who just said that w/ JC, JG, JV and whoever our 5th starter for this year is (Floyd?) back next season, that Buehrle may be gone and Danks/Gio will be in.

ilsox7
03-06-2007, 04:25 PM
Me neither. I'm not going to freak out because this is what the market is for a pitcher like Javy. I think Javy will have a monster season this year, though, and this could turn out to be a steal in the next couple of years.

It's either going to be an absolute steal or a market deal for a pitcher with Javy's recent track record.

Mickster
03-06-2007, 04:25 PM
Me neither. I'm not going to freak out because this is what the market is for a pitcher like Javy. I think Javy will have a monster season this year, though, and this could turn out to be a steal in the next couple of years.

My sentiments exactly.

HotelWhiteSox
03-06-2007, 04:26 PM
I guess it's not an insane price when looking at the market, I'm just not a fan of Javy. I hated the trade for multiple reasons at the time, and now cringe everytime I hear everyone in baseball drool over Chris Young. Seems like they are obsessed with Javy though, something about that performance against us

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 04:26 PM
You are so off-base. The Cubs threw tons of money at ****ty pitchers with losing records. We just signed a market-level contract with a pitcher with ace-level stuff who is ready to settle in and win 18-22 games this year. You forget, the Cubs don't have Don Cooper working with pitchers and Kenny Williams making the decisions. Those two things make any comparison moot.

Coop isn't a magician. TIme will tell if this is a good signing or not. At least Vazquez has demonstrated past success so on the surface it isn't as bad a signing as others. I'd rather have Vazquez at $11.3 million than Meche at $11 million.

soxtalker
03-06-2007, 04:26 PM
Well, they've had a year to work with him, so they must figure that he really does have the potential to get past his struggles. If they are right, they managed to make a deal with him while his perceived value to others is down. Sounds a bit like the deal that they tried with Buerhle early last year.

CHIsoxNation
03-06-2007, 04:28 PM
I actually think this a good move by the Sox. With the way the market has been, Vazquez could easily hit the market and make more per year then what this new contract brings or pick up a 4-5 year deal.

Vazquez has stated that he would like to stay here and basically get back on track to becoming the "ace" everyone though he could be. He was a great pitcher in Montreal and I'm pretty sure some of that could be credited to the fact that he was comfortable there and pitched there for several years.

With this contract out of the way, Vazquez can just focus all of his attention on pitching an not worry about what team he'll be playing for next year like he has been for the past few years.

Nice work, Kenny. :bandance:

oeo
03-06-2007, 04:29 PM
Coop isn't a magician. TIme will tell if this is a good signing or not. At least Vazquez has demonstrated past success so on the surface it isn't as bad a signing as others. I'd rather have Vazquez at $11.3 million than Meche at $11 million.

You're right, he isn't a magician. But if you give him a guy with talent, that is just having trouble finding success, he can help them find that success. It's not like Javy is this god-awful pitcher that has never amounted to anything...he has the stuff to succeed, he just needs some tweaks.

cheeses_h_rice
03-06-2007, 04:29 PM
You are so off-base. The Cubs threw tons of money at ****ty pitchers with losing records. We just signed a market-level contract with a pitcher with ace-level stuff who is ready to settle in and win 18-22 games this year. You forget, the Cubs don't have Don Cooper working with pitchers and Kenny Williams making the decisions. Those two things make any comparison moot.

The only evidence I have that Javy is "ready to settle in" is a few late-year games where he actually pitched past the 6th inning and performed well, and even that was with the pressure off him since the Sox were out of the playoff hunt anyway.

Does he have the stuff to be an 18-22 game winner? Sure. Am I nervous as **** about gambling on him for an additional 3 years beyond 2007? Sure.

Walkman
03-06-2007, 04:31 PM
It's a good deal for the Sox. Typical KW too --if you won't take it MB, then someone esle else will.

kidmccarthy
03-06-2007, 04:31 PM
Hey Javy, you just got rocked this afternoon....Here's 34 million! I think this is an okay signing, he should be a decent #3 for the next couple years. Worst case scenario is that we have to pull him after 5 every start.:D:

spiffie
03-06-2007, 04:32 PM
The only evidence I have that Javy is "ready to settle in" is a few late-year games where he actually pitched past the 6th inning and performed well, and even that was with the pressure off him since the Sox were out of the playoff hunt anyway.

Does he have the stuff to be an 18-22 game winner? Sure. Am I nervous as **** about gambling on him for an additional 3 years beyond 2007? Sure.
God forbid Javy refuses to respond to the situation and turns out to disappoint Mr. Williams and the organization, I doubt that it would be that hard to dump that contract. It's not that out of line for a pitcher who is certainly not going to be bad at the back of a rotation. But I don't think that will happen. After all, if we learned anything in the aftermath of the Freddy and Brandon trades we must above all things trust in the organization at all times. To question them is to imply you know more than they do. And we all know that's not the case for anyone on this board.

MushMouth
03-06-2007, 04:33 PM
It's either going to be an absolute steal or a market deal for a pitcher with Javy's recent track record.


:nod:

HotelWhiteSox
03-06-2007, 04:34 PM
Does he have the stuff to be an 18-22 game winner? Sure. Am I nervous as **** about gambling on him for an additional 3 years beyond 2007? Sure.

I agree, it's a lot of money to give based on potential and stuff (and we're not even talking about a prospect here), no matter how stupid KC is.

link http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070306&content_id=1830347&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 04:34 PM
God forbid Javy refuses to respond to the situation and turns out to disappoint Mr. Williams and the organization, I doubt that it would be that hard to dump that contract. It's not that out of line for a pitcher who is certainly not going to be bad at the back of a rotation. But I don't think that will happen. After all, if we learned anything in the aftermath of the Freddy and Brandon trades we must above all things trust in the organization at all times. To question them is to imply you know more than they do. And we all know that's not the case for anyone on this board.

To also suggest he is ready to "settle in" and win 18-22 games is equally as goofy.

goon
03-06-2007, 04:35 PM
I'm not nervous. Javier is the best SO pitcher on the Sox, he's a horse, he's relatively young and for his stuff, this contract is cheap. Javier should have won 16-17 games last year, his ERA was inflated by two terrible months. Good deal... or at least, it should be.

goon
03-06-2007, 04:36 PM
To also suggest he is ready to "settle in" and win 18-22 games is equally as goofy.


why?

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 04:40 PM
why?

What does this signing do to make someone believe a guy that has never won more than 16 games in a season will vault up to 22? I'm not saying it couldn't happen or that past performance is any indication of future success but signing a contract isn't reason enough for me to believe he is going to DOUBLE his win total from last season. Only 7 pitchers have won 22 games in the last 10 years, for crying out loud.

cws05champ
03-06-2007, 04:41 PM
Market price I gues for a .500 pitcher. I hope he really gets comfortable and can turn it around and post better #'s. He was a liability to our pen last year. I guess we can not condemn the Cubs deal for Lilly now, it's basically the same as this deal.
I suppose this means Buehrle is gone, which I hate....

spiffie
03-06-2007, 04:41 PM
What does this signing do to make someone believe a guy that has never won more than 16 games in a season will vault up to 22? I'm not saying it couldn't happen or that past performance is any indication of future success but signing a contract isn't reason enough for me to believe he is going to skyrocket. Only 7 pitchers have won 22 games in the last 10 years.
Note that it was said 18-22 games. 22 would be the high end if everything clicked perfectly. But considering that he has shown the ability to hurl with an ERA around 3.50, 18 wins with this offense seems totally within realistic potential.

cbotnyse
03-06-2007, 04:42 PM
I think we overpaid, but what do I know? Maybe this will be some motivation for him to pick up the slack.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 04:43 PM
Note that it was said 18-22 games. 22 would be the high end if everything clicked perfectly. But considering that he has shown the ability to hurl with an ERA around 3.50, 18 wins with this offense seems totally within realistic potential.

Yes, I picked the extreme end to prove a point but even 18 wins would still be a career best for Vazquez. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. Even 20 wins would be a phenominal accomplishment. 22 seems all but out of the question.

spiffie
03-06-2007, 04:44 PM
Market price I gues for a .500 pitcher. I hope he really gets comfortable and can turn it around and post better #'s. He was a liability to our pen last year. I guess we can not condemn the Cubs deal for Lilly now, it's basically the same as this deal.
I suppose this means Buehrle is gone, which I hate....
Wow, the rare combination of Flubsession and pants-pissing Dark Cloudism! Amazing!

1. This deal tells us nothing about Buehrle. We'll know about Buehrle after this season, or when he signs a new deal. We know nothing until then.

2. Javier Vazquez is Ted Lilly in absolutely no way except for the fact they both pitch. Ted Lilly is a career mediocrity who cashed in on a desperate team's desire to fool their fans. Vazquez is a stud pitcher who has been tossed around from bad situation to bad situation and needs to settle in to return to his ace form.

SOecks
03-06-2007, 04:46 PM
It took a full year for Contreras to get going well here. Javy has been on the Sox for a year now too. KW doesn't just throw money around, especially with pitchers so I trust that there is good, sound reasoning to give him this money at this point. It also relieves some of my worries about the rotation in the next couple of years.

CLR01
03-06-2007, 04:46 PM
Note that it was said 18-22 games. 22 would be the high end if everything clicked perfectly. But considering that he has shown the ability to hurl with an ERA around 3.50, 18 wins with this offense seems totally within realistic potential.

He had the same offense last year and he only managed 11 wins.

cbotnyse
03-06-2007, 04:47 PM
Javier Vazquez is Ted Lilly in absolutely no way except for the fact they both pitch. Ted Lilly is a career mediocrity who cashed in on a desperate team's desire to fool their fans. Vazquez is a stud pitcher who has been tossed around from bad situation to bad situation and needs to settle in to return to his ace form.thats POTW material. :thumbsup:

WhiteSoxFan84
03-06-2007, 04:47 PM
Javier Vazquez will win 19 games in 2007
and
Post an ERA under 3.80 in 2007

KW has always been a smart business man and made great calls time after time. As much as I'm against giving Vazquez $11.5 mill per, he must know something we don't know and must expect something from Javier that we don't see coming. That's why I'm making those two predictions for JV this upcoming season.


Another thing to keep in mind is that Vazquez was already making $11 mill per season. It's not like he was making $5 mill per last year and now he's getting $11.5 per because of today's market. I doubt any pitcher would take a paycut unless they're very old or have become very bad. Vazquez is neither no matter what any of you say/think.

Palehose Pete
03-06-2007, 04:48 PM
I think we overpaid, but what do I know? Maybe this will be some motivation for him to pick up the slack.

Meh. My thoughts the exact opposite. Javy has his payday, so now he can let himself go a little. This is a crappy signing. Whoever said that Sox fans aren't allowed to make fun of Cubs fans for throwing insane contracts at .500 pitchers was right. Here's to three years of 5 1/3 inning games.

FP_sox
03-06-2007, 04:48 PM
MLB:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070306&content_id=1830347&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp

chaerulez
03-06-2007, 04:48 PM
If the White Sox want to throw around this type of money to Vazquez, I suggest KW offer Burhele a 3 year 40 million deal. If Burhele rejects it's that's fine, but if KW will give 11 million to a pitcher that had one good year in Montreal, I would hope Burhele gets a 13 million offer for his few good years and his part in bringing a World Series title for the Sox.

Goose
03-06-2007, 04:49 PM
Vazquez is a stud pitcher who has been tossed around from bad situation to bad situation and needs to settle in to return to his ace form.

And what exactly is your definition of "Stud"? He is a below .500 pitcher who last year crapped his pants in many a 6th inning. Do you mean he has good stuff? Yes, he does. So does/did Mark Prior and Wood. What does that prove? Nothing. You have to realize potential to make it worth the $$. As it is, this is exactly a Lilly deal.

spiffie
03-06-2007, 04:49 PM
He had the same offense last year and he only managed 11 wins.
He needed some time to settle in.

I look at it this way. I can be skeptical and moan and look at last year and the fact he had 10 starts with 5 or more earned runs, and the fact that he hasn't had a really good year since 2003. Or I can look at the fact that Kenny Williams, architect of the 2005 World Series champions, and the best GM in sports, made a decision to invest in him for the long term. I trust he sees something I don't particularly see. If Kenny thinks he will succeed, then I trust he will, just as I trust he was right to trade away Freddy and McCarthy. And I trust if Kenny chose to make this deal, he expects performance akin to what I suggested instead of what has been done thus far.

BeviBall!
03-06-2007, 04:49 PM
With the market as it is, this is a good deal for the Sox. But, Javy didn't earn this deal with his performance last year. Lets hope a little confidence by management reaps us benefits on the mound going forward.

spiffie
03-06-2007, 04:51 PM
If the White Sox want to throw around this type of money to Vazquez, I suggest KW offer Burhele a 3 year 40 million deal. If Burhele rejects it's that's fine, but if KW will give 11 million to a pitcher that had one good year in Montreal, I would hope Burhele gets a 13 million offer for his few good years and his part in bringing a World Series title for the Sox.
Actually in Montreal Javy posted four straight years of better than average ERA, including two years where he was below 3.50. That tells me he can pitch. If it was just one good year I would be more nervous about this.

Flight #24
03-06-2007, 04:52 PM
This basically ends up as a 4-yr / 43M deal for the Sox when you add in his '07 $9M year. That brings his deal in at just under $11M/yr for them, which is either market rate or a steal depending on whether you think he's comparable to Meche/Lilly or better than them.

It's also interesting because it shows the Sox budging from their "3-year rule". Javy now has guaranteed $$ for 4 years. If they are willing to budge another year, maybe they can resign Burls or JG at say $15M/yr for 4-5 years. That's a hometown discount, but enough in the ballpark of market rates that it would hopefully be palatable to them.

Worst case scenario, you have future rotations of:
'07: Jose, Buehrle, Garland, Javy, Floyd/Danks
'08: Jose, Garland, Javy, 2 of Floyd/Danks/Gio/Sisco/Masset
'09: 08 but replace JG with one of Rasner/Vasquez/????
'10: Javy and who the heck knows?

I'd prefer slotting in Buehrle or Garland into the '09 or beyond rotation, but at least it's not a 100% bet on 5 new guys by '10.

Flight #24
03-06-2007, 04:53 PM
If the White Sox want to throw around this type of money to Vazquez, I suggest KW offer Burhele a 3 year 40 million deal. If Burhele rejects it's that's fine, but if KW will give 11 million to a pitcher that had one good year in Montreal, I would hope Burhele gets a 13 million offer for his few good years and his part in bringing a World Series title for the Sox.

Burls already rejected something along the lines of 3/$36 last year. I'd assume he'll need something like 5/$75, which is still a decent hometown discount for "vintage" Buehrle.

thedudeabides
03-06-2007, 04:54 PM
The one thing I'll say about this deal is I didn't see it coming. I'm not sure this has a whole lot of bearing on a Beuhrle extension. If we do sign Buehrle, we have a lot of young arms who could be dealt to fill in any holes at the deadline, or in the offseason.

eriqjaffe
03-06-2007, 04:54 PM
Well, that's one less player's "contract year" performance to worry about.

CLR01
03-06-2007, 04:54 PM
He needed some time to settle in.

I look at it this way. I can be skeptical and moan and look at last year and the fact he had 10 starts with 5 or more earned runs, and the fact that he hasn't had a really good year since 2003. Or I can look at the fact that Kenny Williams, architect of the 2005 World Series champions, and the best GM in sports, made a decision to invest in him for the long term. I trust he sees something I don't particularly see. If Kenny thinks he will succeed, then I trust he will, just as I trust he was right to trade away Freddy and McCarthy. And I trust if Kenny chose to make this deal, he expects performance akin to what I suggested instead of what has been done thus far.

Just because Kenny expects something doesn't mean it is going to happen.
I'd love to see Vaz turn it on and win 18-20 games the next three years with an ERA under 4 but I just don't see it happening.

spiffie
03-06-2007, 04:56 PM
Just because Kenny expects something doesn't mean it is going to happen.
I'd love to see Vaz turn it on and win 18-20 games the next three years with an ERA under 4 but I just don't see it happening.
Agreed. And you are of course entitled to your own prediction. But if I have to align myself with either some guy on a message board, or Kenny Williams, backed up by the entire strength of the White Sox organization, I'm going to trust the latter's judgment.

HotelWhiteSox
03-06-2007, 04:56 PM
Javier Vazquez will win 19 games in 2007
and
Post an ERA under 3.80 in 2007

Would you like to give some people odds on that? I will go with 0 chance of that happening.

tebman
03-06-2007, 04:57 PM
KW has always been a smart business man and made great calls time after time. As much as I'm against giving Vazquez $11.5 mill per, he must know something we don't know and must expect something from Javier that we don't see coming...

Another thing to keep in mind is that Vazquez was already making $11 mill per season. It's not like he was making $5 mill per last year and now he's getting $11.5 per because of today's market. I doubt any pitcher would take a paycut unless they're very old or have become very bad. Vazquez is neither no matter what any of you say/think.
Right on both counts. Sure, it's a lot of money based on what we saw last year, but KW and Cooper have shown over the last couple of years that they know what they're doing. I'm willing to give KW the benefit of the doubt.

And maybe I'm kidding myself, but I wonder if there are concurrent talks going on with Buehrle. KW's got a budget in mind, and despite all of our hand-wringing I can't help but think that KW and Buehrle both want to make this happen. Maybe now that Vazquez's contract is done, Buehrle's is next.

Or maybe that should be in deep pink...

WhiteSoxFan84
03-06-2007, 04:57 PM
If the White Sox want to throw around this type of money to Vazquez, I suggest KW offer Burhele a 3 year 40 million deal. If Burhele rejects it's that's fine, but if KW will give 11 million to a pitcher that had one good year in Montreal, I would hope Burhele gets a 13 million offer for his few good years and his part in bringing a World Series title for the Sox.

:?:
ONE good year?? Come on guy, that's just not fair.
Check his stats from 2000-2003. That's four good years of very good pitching on a very bad team. In that timeframe he...
- Averaged 225 2/3 IP
- Had an ERA of 3.65
- Averaged 33 starts a year
- Averaged 206 Ks a year, while walking only 53 a year

Health has never been an issue for this guy and that's rare for a power pitcher. He'll be 31 in late July, so age isn't a big concern nor will it be when this extension expires.

All in all, I like this move.

HotelWhiteSox
03-06-2007, 04:58 PM
It should also be pointed out that Hawk said Buehrle was offered more midway through the year last year. I am curious to how our FAs feel now though. KW gave the 'market correction' line all winter and now he gives this deal to Vazquez

WhiteSoxFan84
03-06-2007, 05:03 PM
Something else to keep in mind; Jermaine Dye is a free agent after this season. I'd be pretty confident in saying Dye will be approached about an extension and agree on one before Buehrle is approached again. Like HotelWS said, they made him an offer last season and he turned it down. I love Buehrle off the field (I'm OK with him on the field, never been a big fan), but anyone that thinks he'll give us a hometown discount is kidding themselves. As nice as he seems, he's also smart. He wants big dough or HE GONE! I'm talking about at least $15 mill per plus.

And this may sound stupid and some of you may bash me for this, bud I'd rather pay Carlos Zambrano $18 mill per rather than pay Buehrle $15 mill per. And "Kray-Z" may become a free agent after this season as well.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-06-2007, 05:06 PM
First Liverpool advances and now this. I'm headed to the poker room!!!

:supernana: :moonwalk:

Great job Kenny. He has excellent stuff and I think he will exceed expectations in Chicago. Kenny Williams has been after Vazquez for years and now he has him locked in for the next four seasons. He is still young (will turn 34 with two months to go in the final year of his contract) & gives you 32 + starts each and every year. I've made a few trips to Wrigley to watch him pitch in the NL (at when he came in with the Yankees).

I know not everyone likes Vazquez but I think they will after the next four seasons.

Three of our four starters finished within 1/3 of an ER (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/chw/stats/bycategory?cat=Pitching&type=0) per game (ahead or behind Vazquez). I think the lazy media made him a scapegoat last year and I remember at least two starts where the defense totally collapsed for him (Mac in CF). Contreras is signed for three more seasons, Garland for two and Buehrle is the last starter who needs to be resigned. If he will accept a three or four year deal he will stay, if not he will leave for a longer deal.

I like the fact Kenny Williams limites pitching contracts to three years. If you compare what Vazquez will make over the next four seasons to what free agent pitchers will make over the same time frame he will outperform them dollar for dollar and hopefully be a key fixture in at least one more World Series title.

Way to go Kenny Williams and Javier Vazquez.

chaerulez
03-06-2007, 05:07 PM
Something else to keep in mind; Jermaine Dye is a free agent after this season. I'd be pretty confident in saying Dye will be approached about an extension and agree on one before Buehrle is approached again. Like HotelWS said, they made him an offer last season and he turned it down. I love Buehrle off the field (I'm OK with him on the field, never been a big fan), but anyone that thinks he'll give us a hometown discount is kidding themselves. As nice as he seems, he's also smart. He wants big dough or HE GONE! I'm talking about at least $15 mill per plus.

And this may sound stupid and some of you may bash me for this, bud I'd rather pay Carlos Zambrano $18 mill per rather than pay Buehrle $15 mill per. And "Kray-Z" may become a free agent after this season as well.

I would agree that Zambrano is a better pitcher than Buehrle. I think the Sox think that Dye is expendable because of Fields/Sweeney.

SoxxoS
03-06-2007, 05:08 PM
I would agree that Zambrano is a better pitcher than Buehrle.

I dont like the Cubs and all, but that is the understatement of the year.

cheeses_h_rice
03-06-2007, 05:09 PM
Javier Vazquez will win 19 games in 2007
and
Post an ERA under 3.80 in 2007

The Sox have had exactly two 19 game winners in the last 10 years.

There were 9 pitchers in the AL with ERAs below 3.80 last year.

I predict that neither of the above things will happen.

White Sox Randy
03-06-2007, 05:09 PM
I'm not a Vazquez fan but the Sox did not overpay. This is the market price for a guy like him. If he continues to pitch like he has and stays healthy, the deal is so so.

But, if he takes it to the next level like the Sox and so many others think he can, then it will be a great deal.

I do like the fact that they locked up one of these 4 starters. We can't count on all these young guys becoming great. We'll probably be lucky if one of Floyd, Danks and Gio become a top tier starter for a long period.

gr8mexico
03-06-2007, 05:09 PM
For some reason, they love this guy. I wish they'd have traded him to Houston for Hirsh, insetad of offering Garland. That kid looks awesome. But KW and Ozzy have to live with this decsion.Do you honestly think Houston would of taken JV. this is not Fantasy baseball. This was good signing JV got Gil Meche money and JV has better potential then him.
Can the Sox consider trading Dank and Brian Anderson for Alexis Rios of the Blue Jays

thomas35forever
03-06-2007, 05:10 PM
I think we may be keeping him around too long. I would have expected him to leave within 1-2 years. If all goes well, Vazquez could prove to be very valuable for us. In Coop I trust.

IlliniSox4Life
03-06-2007, 05:11 PM
Does anyone have an excel spreadsheet of our payroll for this year and years into the future? I haven't updated mine in a while, and I would like to see what money is guaranteed to who for next year and beyond.

Daver
03-06-2007, 05:12 PM
I would agree that Zambrano is a better pitcher than Buehrle. I think the Sox think that Dye is expendable because of Fields/Sweeney.

Fields is an infielder.

WhiteSoxFan84
03-06-2007, 05:13 PM
I would agree that Zambrano is a better pitcher than Buehrle. I think the Sox think that Dye is expendable because of Fields/Sweeney.

Very true but Sweeney will replace Podsednik unless Pods has a very good 2007. KW loves JD for what he did in the playoffs (World Series MVP) and what he did last year. Don't forget how much crap KW got for signing Dye two seasons ago. Everyone called him a has-been and called KW desperate. Dye has already said he has already given the White Sox a discount before because he loves the team and would do it again as long as the offer was fair. That's the main reason I see him staying. Buehrle hasn't made mention of sticking around for less money (I don't blame him) nor do I see it happening in the future.

In my last post, what I said about giving Zambrano $18 mill per instead of Buehrle, man, I got myself all worked up now.... that would be awesome. And I don't know if this matters or if it's even true, but during the Cubs/Sox crosstown series a few years ago, Comcast was doing a special on what former Sox player did current Cub fans used to look upto and vice versa. Zambrano said something like, "Frank Thomas was my favorite hitter growing up". So the transition former Sox fans hating him to Sox fans loving him wouldn't be too bad.

RockyMtnSoxFan
03-06-2007, 05:13 PM
Kenny Williams apparently thought so much of Vazquez last year that he was willing to put McCarthy, who had been hailed as a future ace, on hold. That expectation didn't turn out so well. For those who think that KW is some sort of genious who has a sixth sense for talent, he's made lots of mistakes as well. It seems to me he is somehow infatuated with Vazquez.

Also, just because this deal is roughly the equivalent of many other deals that have been made lately doesn't make it a good deal. I think that probably everyone here thought that the Meche and Lily deals were ridiculous at the time. If Vazquez turns out to be comparable to those guys, as he currently seems to be, this is just as bad of a deal as those ones are.

chaerulez
03-06-2007, 05:14 PM
Fields is an infielder.

Haven't they played him in LF for part of his minor league career?

slowlearner
03-06-2007, 05:16 PM
Given the way the pitching market seems to always out do itself each year, this might turn out to be a better than average deal in the long run. If anything, Javy doesn't walk too many guys and puts in his innings. That said, I think there is at best a slim chance that he turns into anything more than the 11-14 win pitcher he has proven himself to be. I hope he does, but I just don't see it.

Daver
03-06-2007, 05:17 PM
Haven't they played him in LF for part of his minor league career?

Not that I know of, he's always played third, and a left fielder is a far cry from a right fielder.

jdm2662
03-06-2007, 05:18 PM
Kind of surprised at this, but I guess I shouldn't be seeing how Kenny has functioned in the past.. This is pretty much market value for him. He certainly has the stuff to be awesome, but we will see. Not sure how to react just yet.

goon
03-06-2007, 05:20 PM
What does this signing do to make someone believe a guy that has never won more than 16 games in a season will vault up to 22? I'm not saying it couldn't happen or that past performance is any indication of future success but signing a contract isn't reason enough for me to believe he is going to DOUBLE his win total from last season. Only 7 pitchers have won 22 games in the last 10 years, for crying out loud.

The majority of Vazquez's career was spent with the Expos and they SUCKED, so I think that might have had something to do with the team he was playing for. To think he doesn't have a chance at winning 18 games in the next three years is being overly pessimistic. He just pitched 202 innings, his fastball is still 92-94 with great movement. He had a 13 strikeout game last year, and I believe took two no-hitters into the 7th inning last season. I just hope he gets over that 5th-6th inning mental breakdown.

thedudeabides
03-06-2007, 05:21 PM
In my last post, what I said about giving Zambrano $18 mill per instead of Buehrle, man, I got myself all worked up now.... that would be awesome. And I don't know if this matters or if it's even true, but during the Cubs/Sox crosstown series a few years ago, Comcast was doing a special on what former Sox player did current Cub fans used to look upto and vice versa. Zambrano said something like, "Frank Thomas was my favorite hitter growing up". So the transition former Sox fans hating him to Sox fans loving him wouldn't be too bad.

If Zambrano hits free agency, he will get a 6 or 7 year deal, similar to Zito. The Sox will never give a pitcher a deal for that many years, and I agree they shouldn't.

FedEx227
03-06-2007, 05:23 PM
Not that I know of, he's always played third, and a left fielder is a far cry from a right fielder.

They've tried him out at left field many times, but it just never seemed to click and it's obvious he's a third-basemen.

nasox
03-06-2007, 05:25 PM
Kenny Williams apparently thought so much of Vazquez last year that he was willing to put McCarthy, who had been hailed as a future ace, on hold. That expectation didn't turn out so well. For those who think that KW is some sort of genious who has a sixth sense for talent, he's made lots of mistakes as well. It seems to me he is somehow infatuated with Vazquez.

Also, just because this deal is roughly the equivalent of many other deals that have been made lately doesn't make it a good deal. I think that probably everyone here thought that the Meche and Lily deals were ridiculous at the time. If Vazquez turns out to be comparable to those guys, as he currently seems to be, this is just as bad of a deal as those ones are.

I agree. The luster of 2005 is wearing off and the more I think about it, the less I like KW. Yes, I'm still pissed about McCarthy.

That being said, I think I like this move. Pitching is damn expensive (which makes me think, why did we trade McCarthy, but I digress). While this move may seem like a lot of money, it is simply what the market is dictating.

More and more it looks like Burls is going to be gone.

FedEx227
03-06-2007, 05:25 PM
And we can't lock Crede/Iguchi...WHY?

gobears1987
03-06-2007, 05:27 PM
I'm no fan of Vazquez, but 11 million a year is now the going rate for a .500 headcase pitcher like Vazquez.

spiffie
03-06-2007, 05:28 PM
Not that I know of, he's always played third, and a left fielder is a far cry from a right fielder.
His only pro experience in the OF was one game in LF with the big club last year.

WhiteSoxFan84
03-06-2007, 05:29 PM
If Zambrano hits free agency, he will get a 6 or 7 year deal, similar to Zito. The Sox will never give a pitcher a deal for that many years, and I agree they shouldn't.

I totally agree that he will be looking for 5-7 years. However, I think the Sox will sway his decision with whatever they do and will make an exception and give him a 4, maybe even a 5 year deal. As long as he gets his $18 mill per, I think he'll be happy. And a lot of teams have taken themselves out of upcoming auctions for great free agents to be like Zambrano by overpaying mediocre players these last few offseasons. The only teams I see coming after Zambrano and having a chance in free agency would be the Yankees, Astros, Red Sox (maybe - because of their payroll being high as it is), Cubs (maybe - because of overpaying this past offseason), Angels (maybe - because of their current payroll) and the White Sox.

JermaineDye05
03-06-2007, 05:42 PM
Well with this signing hopefully Buerhle, Dye, Crede, and/or Gooch are next. Even though I love Buehrle and I think that last year was an off year, it seems he may be expendable now with the 2 lefties we have waiting in the wings. Although, I think Gio needs 2 more years in the minors and Danks MIGHT be ready next year. You also have to be hoping Gavin Floyd works out and has a pretty solid year. Or of course there's always the choice of signing Santana.

goon
03-06-2007, 05:43 PM
Well with this signing hopefully Buerhle, Dye, Crede, and/or Gooch are next. Even though I love Buehrle and I think that last year was an off year, it seems he may be expendable now with the 2 lefties we have waiting in the wings. Although, I think Gio needs 2 more years in the minors and Danks MIGHT be ready next year. You also have to be hoping Gavin Floyd works out and has a pretty solid year. Or of course there's always the choice of signing Santana.

Danks might be ready this year.

Jjav829
03-06-2007, 05:44 PM
With the stuff Vazquez has, there's always that hope that he'll figure it out later in his career, like a Curt Schilling type.

If the terms are reasonable, I think it's a great decision to keep a starter for the long haul.

The problem with that comparison is that Schilling at the age of 30 won 17 games with a sub-3 ERA, struck out 319 hitters and had a 1.05 WHIP.

Vazquez at the age of 30 went 11-12 with a 4.84 ERA, 1.29 WHIP and 184 K's.

SABRSox
03-06-2007, 05:47 PM
A bit of a reach on this extension. Luckily, it's not so incredibly exorbitant that the Sox can't trade it away if it doesn't work. That's really the only thing I like. I know Javy has all the talent in the world, but that doesn't mean he can put it together.

I'd rather have used that money toward Crede and Iguchi.

Jjav829
03-06-2007, 05:48 PM
Agreed. And you are of course entitled to your own prediction. But if I have to align myself with either some guy on a message board, or Kenny Williams, backed up by the entire strength of the White Sox organization, I'm going to trust the latter's judgment.

You don't have to align yourself with anyone. That's the great thing about sports. You can form your own opinion.

I'm less than excited that we're locking into Vazquez for an extra 3 years. While this might be market value for a medicore pitcher these days, I'm not all that certain that it will remain market value over the long haul. I have to think there's going to be a market correction sometime soon. We'll see.

I'm really surprised that Vazquez was the first player we locked up for extra years. He better step it up now. This is his time to start pitching well. No more excuses. No more "He just needs to settle in to a place." No more "He only needs some tweaks," etc. It's put up or shut up time for Javier Vazquez. He'll turn 31 this July. Historically, these should be the prime years of his career.

SABRSox
03-06-2007, 05:57 PM
I'm less than excited that we're locking into Vazquez for an extra 3 years. While this might be market value for a medicore pitcher these days, I'm not all that certain that it will remain market value over the long haul. I have to think there's going to be a market correction sometime soon. We'll see.

The market will make a correction, but only a slight correction downward, if any. It will never revert back to pre-2006 levels.

And this might be a little controversial, but maybe the Vazquez extension is the safer bet than the Buerhle extension. I mean, Mark fell off the map in the second half last season. As a Sox fan, I want to be fully confident that he'll bounce back, and that he was just worn down from 2005, but who really knows? At least we know what we're going to get from Vazquez (and hope he improves from that.)

oeo
03-06-2007, 05:58 PM
Fields is an infielder.

With all due respect, why are you in disbelief about Fields making a change to the outfield? He's an incredible athlete, and it's not as if a 3B has never made a change to the outfield.

chisox77
03-06-2007, 06:00 PM
I realize the logic of this move. It's just that I am not sure about investing in Javy. Again, no shortage in talent - but he seems battle himself more than the hitters. I'll just have to wait and see.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 06:08 PM
The majority of Vazquez's career was spent with the Expos and they SUCKED, so I think that might have had something to do with the team he was playing for. To think he doesn't have a chance at winning 18 games in the next three years is being overly pessimistic. He just pitched 202 innings, his fastball is still 92-94 with great movement. He had a 13 strikeout game last year, and I believe took two no-hitters into the 7th inning last season. I just hope he gets over that 5th-6th inning mental breakdown.

When did I ever say he didn't have a chance to win 18 games? My comment was that simply signing a new contract doesn't give me enough reason to believe Vazquez is "settled in" and ready to win "18-22" games. I have a strong feeling he will do better than last season but am not too optimistic that he will be winning 18 and don't have any faith at all he will win 22.

SABRSox
03-06-2007, 06:13 PM
I have a strong feeling he will do better than last season but am not too optimistic that he will be winning 18 and don't have any faith at all he will win 22.

I'd be very pleased if he could consistently get through the 6th inning unscathed.

Honestly, 15+ wins and 200 innings is all we should be looking for with Javy. Everything above and beyond is gravy.

cws05champ
03-06-2007, 06:26 PM
Wow, the rare combination of Flubsession and pants-pissing Dark Cloudism! Amazing!

1. This deal tells us nothing about Buehrle. We'll know about Buehrle after this season, or when he signs a new deal. We know nothing until then.

2. Javier Vazquez is Ted Lilly in absolutely no way except for the fact they both pitch. Ted Lilly is a career mediocrity who cashed in on a desperate team's desire to fool their fans. Vazquez is a stud pitcher who has been tossed around from bad situation to bad situation and needs to settle in to return to his ace form.

Look, I agree that Lilly cashed in on the desparate Cubs...but a lot of teams would have given him similar $$$. It is just Mkt price for a pitcher of their caliber. Yes, I am lumpimg them together because they have similar #'s per IP in the Majors, while Vazquez ERA is .2 less he has still yet to put it together year after year.

goon
03-06-2007, 06:30 PM
When did I ever say he didn't have a chance to win 18 games? My comment was that simply signing a new contract doesn't give me enough reason to believe Vazquez is "settled in" and ready to win "18-22" games. I have a strong feeling he will do better than last season but am not too optimistic that he will be winning 18 and don't have any faith at all he will win 22.


With Vazquez being our number 4 starter and all of us seeing the type of pitches he has, you expect him to win 14-15 games, every season. I don't like what I've seen so far, but I'm still high on Javy, as I was after the trade. He needs to pick it up, but I could see him being somebody, like Contreras, who it just clicks for him in one season and he dominates.

Jerome
03-06-2007, 06:37 PM
I'd rather give ten mil per year to him than Ted Lily or Jason Marquis, but is this the market we are now in? One where the Sox can only afford to lock up bad pitchers?

Jerome
03-06-2007, 06:41 PM
Sox fans can stop making fun at the Cubs for throwing insane contracts at pitchers with losing records...

sadly yes, BUT I will blame the Cubs for helping to totally inflate the market

soxinem1
03-06-2007, 06:44 PM
Just another instance of KW and JR taking care of 'outsiders' while the homegrown and proven guys get discarded like an old Ford.

Best part about it was that the guy could not be a FA for two more full seasons. Plus, he's over 30 now. If he hasn't been an ace before, he sure won't become one overnight. Unless of course, he goes to Tampa Bay, Baltimore, or back to (sort of) Washington.

What BS, I'll bet he averages more than $1 million per win on that contract.

The Immigrant
03-06-2007, 06:48 PM
I'm just waiting to see what kind of spin Phil Rogers puts on this one...

Daver
03-06-2007, 06:56 PM
With all do respect, why are you in disbelief about Fields making a change to the outfield? He's an incredible athlete, and it's not as if a 3B has never made a change to the outfield.

Yeah, Carlos Lee worked out real well switching from third to LF, he spent two years looking like a grazing cow out there as the pitchers cringed every time the ball was hit to left. Then someone told Carlos to stand on the warning track so that nothing could go over his head, so every groundball that found it's way past the SS turned into a double.

The Sox tried hitting their way to a championship for about twenty years, with zero results, but look what happened when they balance pitching, defense, and smart baseball.

kobo
03-06-2007, 07:01 PM
You don't have to align yourself with anyone. That's the great thing about sports. You can form your own opinion.

I'm less than excited that we're locking into Vazquez for an extra 3 years. While this might be market value for a medicore pitcher these days, I'm not all that certain that it will remain market value over the long haul. I have to think there's going to be a market correction sometime soon. We'll see.

I'm really surprised that Vazquez was the first player we locked up for extra years. He better step it up now. This is his time to start pitching well. No more excuses. No more "He just needs to settle in to a place." No more "He only needs some tweaks," etc. It's put up or shut up time for Javier Vazquez. He'll turn 31 this July. Historically, these should be the prime years of his career.
I agree with you. I am not going to blindly follow Kenny and believe in Kenny with every move he makes. What did Vazquez do last season to even warrant talks of an extension? Well, now he has to prove himself. Not next year or the year after, but this year. I know he has the potential to be a stud, but he needs to start living up to that potential this season.

maurice
03-06-2007, 07:04 PM
Looks like Vazquez really likes it here and wants to stay. The total value of the deal is well below market, which makes it a win-win for the Sox. If he pitches well, the Sox have a fantastic deal. If he continues to pitch the same, the deal makes him extremely tradeable, as long as the no-trade clause isn't too restrictive. He may be a .500 pitcher, but he also gives you 200+ IP per year. That type of player has value in MLB.

As a side note, this signing doesn't help Phil Rogers' credibility. After all, he's the one who told us (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-0612240227dec24,1,4246025.column?coll=chi-sportswhitesox-hed):
On the surface, the McCarthy deal is another part of the Williams/Jerry Reinsdorf plan to replace, rather than re-sign, Buehrle, Garland and Vazquez....This is a despicable plan....

oeo
03-06-2007, 07:07 PM
Yeah, Carlos Lee worked out real well switching from third to LF, he spent two years looking like a grazing cow out there as the pitchers cringed every time the ball was hit to left. Then someone told Carlos to stand on the warning track so that nothing could go over his head, so every groundball that found it's way past the SS turned into a double.

The Sox tried hitting their way to a championship for about twenty years, with zero results, but look what happened when they balance pitching, defense, and smart baseball.

This still does not explain why you think Fields cannot do it. I thought maybe there was something that stuck out to you, that made you think he couldn't do it. Comparing him to Carlos Lee is not a valid reason.

I've never seen him play the outfield, as well I'm sure you haven't either...who's to say he could not make a successful change? I'm not saying bring him up to the majors and throw him in the outfield, but he can get that experience in AAA this year since he has no shot at making the 25-man roster.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-06-2007, 07:07 PM
Just another instance of KW and JR taking care of 'outsiders' while the homegrown and proven guys get discarded like an old Ford.

This is not true. Garland and Contreras received extensions. Extensions were offered to Buerhle and Ordonez and rejected. Buehrle will be offered a good 3 or 4 year deal. The club will not give him a five or six year deal nor should they. The White Sox continue to prove how wise it is to shun longterm pitching deals.

Who has been discarded like an old Ford?

Carlos Lee in his final years of his deal to obtain several players within the budget. He signed this offseason at $100 mil for six seasons, which is too much by most people's standards.

Aaron Rowand, a medicore CF traded for one of the best LH power hitters in the game?

Magglio who was offered a generous extension but held out for the idiotic deal Detroit gave him (bidding against themselves).

Konerko was signed to a longterm deal.

I really don't see a history of the White Sox dumping their home grown.

Crede and Buehrle will each be offered a very good contract (assuming they stay healthy this season) and it will be up to them (and the White Sox dumbest competitors) whether they want to stay or not. Perhaps Buehrle will get a 6 year $90 million offer elsewhere. I don't think the White Sox should match it. Ditto an outrageous Borass generated Crede offer.

This contract was at or below market for a pitcher of Vazquez' caliber. The market will grow each year along with revenues. This contract will look like a steal (assuming he stays healthy) the final few seasons - just like the final years on contracts given to Dye, Contreras and other players people thought were overpaid at the time of their deals.

The Dude
03-06-2007, 07:08 PM
Hmm, not sure how I feel about this yet...

Well with what Ted Lilly got, I think it's a fair amount. I think Vazquez will have a great season this year and prove Mike:rolleyes: wrong as usual....ala Joe Crede.:gulp:

chisoxmike
03-06-2007, 07:12 PM
Well with what Ted Lilly got, I think it's a fair amount. I think Vazquez will have a great season this year and prove Mike:rolleyes: wrong as usual....ala Joe Crede.:gulp:

What makes you think he will have a great season? I hope he does for the Sox sake. If he does, he will be proving a lot more people wrong than just me...

I just think he is what he is. A .500 pitcher...like he has been. Thats what he is, and I think Vazquez has done nothing to warrent a extension.

I dont understand why you single me out with the Vazquez "haters." As for Crede, yeah, I never thought much of him until he finally came around mid-2005. So if that "proved me wrong" ok...

The Dude
03-06-2007, 07:14 PM
What makes you think he will have a great season? I hope he does for the Sox sake. If he does, he will be proving a lot more people wrong than just me...

Check out this nubber from yahoo:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AiI5pLJGISirAcqyuUh4O80RvLYF?slug=ap-whitesox-vazquez&prov=ap&type=lgns

Over the past nine years, Vazquez ranks among the major league leaders in strikeouts (fifth), starts (sixth) and innings (eighth). He is the only pitcher with 10 wins, 30 starts and 150 strikeouts in each of the last seven seasons.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 07:15 PM
Just another instance of KW and JR taking care of 'outsiders' while the homegrown and proven guys get discarded like an old Ford.

Best part about it was that the guy could not be a FA for two more full seasons. Plus, he's over 30 now. If he hasn't been an ace before, he sure won't become one overnight. Unless of course, he goes to Tampa Bay, Baltimore, or back to (sort of) Washington.

What BS, I'll bet he averages more than $1 million per win on that contract.

Gimmie a break...

The Dude
03-06-2007, 07:15 PM
What makes you think he will have a great season? I hope he does for the Sox sake. If he does, he will be proving a lot more people wrong than just me...

Because he has the stuff to do it and just needs the confidence and stability to be a great pitcher. Now he knows he is locked in through 2010 so he probably feels more comfortable pitching with the Sox.

The Immigrant
03-06-2007, 07:16 PM
http://blogs.dailysouthtown.com/whalen/2007/03/javy_extension_official.html

I don't know if anyone else posted this already, but here's an interview with Javy about the extension. The no trade clause apparently applies only to West Coast teams.

JermaineDye05
03-06-2007, 07:17 PM
Looks like Vazquez really likes it here and wants to stay. The total value of the deal is well below market, which makes it a win-win for the Sox. If he pitches well, the Sox have a fantastic deal. If he continues to pitch the same, the deal makes him extremely tradeable, as long as the no-trade clause isn't too restrictive. He may be a .500 pitcher, but he also gives you 200+ IP per year. That type of player has value in MLB.

As a side note, this signing doesn't help Phil Rogers' credibility. After all, he's the one who told us (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-0612240227dec24,1,4246025.column?coll=chi-sportswhitesox-hed):On the surface, the McCarthy deal is another part of the Williams/Jerry Reinsdorf plan to replace, rather than re-sign, Buehrle, Garland and Vazquez....This is a despicable plan....

by tomorrow he'll be saying that keeping Vazquez for 3 more seasons is a terrible plan.

Daver
03-06-2007, 07:17 PM
This still does not explain why you think Fields cannot do it. I thought maybe there was something that stuck out to you, that made you think he couldn't do it. Comparing him to Carlos Lee is not a valid reason.

I've never seen him play the outfield, as well I'm sure you haven't either...who's to say he could not make a successful change? I'm not saying bring him up to the majors and throw him in the outfield, but he can get that experience in AAA this year since he has no shot at making the 25-man roster.


He hasn't played outfield, and based on what I have seen doesn't have the arm to play anything more than left. My point is, why bring a guy through your system as an infielder, a position he has played since he was in his teens, to try and change his position this late in the game? To gain a bat? A good third baseman will bring back a an outfielder that can hit in a trade.

The Dude
03-06-2007, 07:17 PM
Gimmie a break...


Thanks for quoting this guy and proving why I have him/her ignored! Complete and utter filth I tell you. :rolleyes:

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 07:17 PM
This still does not explain why you think Fields cannot do it. I thought maybe there was something that stuck out to you, that made you think he couldn't do it. Comparing him to Carlos Lee is not a valid reason.

I've never seen him play the outfield, as well I'm sure you haven't either...who's to say he could not make a successful change? I'm not saying bring him up to the majors and throw him in the outfield, but he can get that experience in AAA this year since he has no shot at making the 25-man roster.

I don't think anyone is saying he can't be an outfielder. It is more an issue that he hasn't played it before so it is an unknown. I mean, why are people so quick to think he can be an outfielder?

EDIT: Daver beats me to the punch.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 07:19 PM
Wow, the rare combination of Flubsession and pants-pissing Dark Cloudism! Amazing!

1. This deal tells us nothing about Buehrle. We'll know about Buehrle after this season, or when he signs a new deal. We know nothing until then.

2. Javier Vazquez is Ted Lilly in absolutely no way except for the fact they both pitch. Ted Lilly is a career mediocrity who cashed in on a desperate team's desire to fool their fans. Vazquez is a stud pitcher who has been tossed around from bad situation to bad situation and needs to settle in to return to his ace form.


I don't like Lilly anymore than anyone else but at least he has a winning career record. Javier is 5 games under .500 lifetime, hasn't won more than 16 games in his career (and that was 2001), and can't seem to get out of the 6th inning consistently. His stuff doesn't mean anything if he can't execute consistently. Seriously, he's an OK 4-5 starter but they are paying him to help anchor the staff. To say he's ready to win 18-22 games is a pipe dream. :angry:

This deal is embarrassing.

veeter
03-06-2007, 07:20 PM
Do you honestly think Houston would of taken JV. this is not Fantasy baseball. This was good signing JV got Gil Meche money and JV has better potential then him.
Can the Sox consider trading Dank and Brian Anderson for Alexis Rios of the Blue JaysMaybe I'd respond if I knew what you were trying to say.

chisoxmike
03-06-2007, 07:23 PM
Check out this nubber from yahoo:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AiI5pLJGISirAcqyuUh4O80RvLYF?slug=ap-whitesox-vazquez&prov=ap&type=lgns

Over the past nine years, Vazquez ranks among the major league leaders in strikeouts (fifth), starts (sixth) and innings (eighth). He is the only pitcher with 10 wins, 30 starts and 150 strikeouts in each of the last seven seasons.

Look, if he becomes this great pitcher on our staff, excellent. I'll cheer him on regardless just like everybody else on the team. But those numbers still didn't produce wins for us. That's all I care about - White Sox wins. He strikes out a lot of guys great...but he also blows up and gives up runs.

As for the confidence factor...that will remain to be seen. Let's hope for all of us this helps.

oeo
03-06-2007, 07:27 PM
I don't think anyone is saying he can't be an outfielder. It is more an issue that he hasn't played it before so it is an unknown. I mean, why are people so quick to think he can be an outfielder?

EDIT: Daver beats me to the punch.

I'm not, but it seems like he's always quick to the punch to say that he's an infielder; which leads me to believe that he thinks Fields cannot make the transition.

And I don't buy not being able to play the outfield because his arm isn't strong enough. He played college football, so his arm is probably the biggest thing going for him at this point.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 07:27 PM
I don't like Lilly anymore than anyone else but at least he has a winning career record. Javier is 5 games under .500 lifetime, hasn't won more than 16 games in his career (and that was 2001), and can't seem to get out of the 6th inning consistently. His stuff doesn't mean anything if he can't execute consistently. Seriously, he's an OK 4-5 starter but they are paying him to help anchor the staff. To say he's ready to win 18-22 games is a pipe dream. :angry:

This deal is embarrassing.

I'd take Vazquez at 3/$34.5 over Lilly at 4/$40.

soxinem1
03-06-2007, 07:28 PM
This is not true. Garland and Contreras received extensions. Extensions were offered to Buerhle and Ordonez and rejected. Buehrle will be offered a good 3 or 4 year deal. The club will not give him a five or six year deal nor should they. The White Sox continue to prove how wise it is to shun longterm pitching deals.

Who has been discarded like an old Ford?

Carlos Lee in his final years of his deal to obtain several players within the budget. He signed this offseason at $100 mil for six seasons, which is too much by most people's standards.

Aaron Rowand, a medicore CF traded for one of the best LH power hitters in the game?

Magglio who was offered a generous extension but held out for the idiotic deal Detroit gave him (bidding against themselves).

Konerko was signed to a longterm deal.

I really don't see a history of the White Sox dumping their home grown.

Crede and Buehrle will each be offered a very good contract (assuming they stay healthy this season) and it will be up to them (and the White Sox dumbest competitors) whether they want to stay or not. Perhaps Buehrle will get a 6 year $90 million offer elsewhere. I don't think the White Sox should match it. Ditto an outrageous Borass generated Crede offer.

This contract was at or below market for a pitcher of Vazquez' caliber. The market will grow each year along with revenues. This contract will look like a steal (assuming he stays healthy) the final few seasons - just like the final years on contracts given to Dye, Contreras and other players people thought were overpaid at the time of their deals.

C/mon SouthSide, get real! :rolleyes:

This is actually a four year deal, because we are committing more than $46 million the next four seasons to a guy who won a whopping 11 games and threw up nearly five runs a game? He's already guaranteed for 2007. I'd take another $34 million guaranteed too if I came off a season like that!

Jack McDowell and Robin Ventura among them, there have been several bitter or just plain crazy contract issues with what always seems to be the home-grown guys, that something always seems to be off kilter.

But the salary thing has gotten so out of whack it is not even worth discussing anymore. Anyone who considers giving a pitcher an extension that will be worth more than $1 million per WIN just shows how outrageous the money has become.

Dub25
03-06-2007, 07:28 PM
I just got home and heard Ryan Baker report this and all I can think of is didn't Kenny Williams say he wouldn't overpay for mediocre talent? His stuff might be ace worthy but his numbers have yet to prove it. And to top it off he has one solid outing today.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 07:29 PM
He played college football, so his arm is probably the biggest thing going for him at this point.

So did Borchard. What's the point?

:dunno:

98navigator
03-06-2007, 07:35 PM
I'd take Vazquez at 3/$34.5 over Lilly at 4/$40.

The only reason Lilly got an extra year is because he was a free agent. Besides, it's not about comparing them. On it's own merits, this deal isn't good (and really it's kinda hypocritical considering what Kenny's been saying all winter with regard to not paying for mediocre talent). Javy has pitched for some very good teams and he hasn't been able to win more than 13 games, in a season, over the last 5 years (and during that time period he's under .500).

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 07:39 PM
Javy has pitched for some very good teams and he hasn't been able to win more than 13 games, in a season, over the last 5 years (and during that time period he's under .500).

98 Expos 65-97
99 Expos 68-94
00 Expos 67-95
01 Expos 68-94
02 Expos 83-79
03 Expos 83-79
04 Yankees 101-61
05 Diamondbacks 77-85
06 Sox 90-72

Aside from 2004 and 2006, please direct me toward these "very good teams" he has pitched for.

Oh, and he won 14 with the Yankees.

soxinem1
03-06-2007, 07:42 PM
The only reason Lilly got an extra year is because he was a free agent. Besides, it's not about comparing them. On it's own merits, this deal isn't good (and really it's kinda hypocritical considering what Kenny's been saying all winter with regard to not paying for mediocre talent). Javy has pitched for some very good teams and he hasn't been able to win more than 13 games, in a season, over the last 5 years (and during that time period he's under .500).

Amen to that.

In a few years I'd like to look back at this and wonder if the team comes out ahead...... especially when Vazquez wins about 40 games over the length of the contract.

I wonder if a trade for Odalis Perez or Carl Pavano is in the works too.....

98navigator
03-06-2007, 07:45 PM
98 Expos 65-97
99 Expos 68-94
00 Expos 67-95
01 Expos 68-94
02 Expos 83-79
03 Expos 83-79
04 Yankees 101-61
05 Diamondbacks 77-85
06 Sox 90-72

Aside from 2004 and 2006, please direct me toward these "very good teams" he has pitched for.

Oh, and he won 14 with the Yankees.

What's your point? I said over the last 5 years. During that time, he played on only one losing team. He pitched for a Yankees team that won 101 games for heavens sake! He couldn't even get 18 wins on that team!!!!

I do stand corrected on the 13 wins however. He won 14 with the Yanks. This guy is NOT a consistent winner.

chisoxmike
03-06-2007, 07:47 PM
I wonder if a trade for Odalis Perez or Carl Pavano is in the works too.....


Uh, let's hope not.

FoulkeFan
03-06-2007, 07:49 PM
98 Expos 65-97
99 Expos 68-94
00 Expos 67-95
01 Expos 68-94
02 Expos 83-79
03 Expos 83-79
04 Yankees 101-61
05 Diamondbacks 77-85
06 Sox 90-72

Aside from 2004 and 2006, please direct me toward these "very good teams" he has pitched for.

Oh, and he won 14 with the Yankees.

Don't bother us with the facts! :smile:

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 07:54 PM
What's your point? I said over the last 5 years. During that time, he played on only one losing team. He pitched for a Yankees team that won 101 games for heavens sake! He couldn't even get 18 wins on that team!!!!

I do stand corrected on the 13 win however. He won 14 with the Yanks

I would not call the '02 and '03 Expos good teams. And despite the Yankees winning 101 in 2004, no one on the team had more than 14 wins, as many as Vazquez had.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 07:55 PM
Uh, let's hope not.

Ditto! Pavano is a joke and the Yankees can't wait to unload him on some poor sucker. He's yet another pitcher with an under .500 record.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 07:59 PM
I would not call the '02 and '03 Expos good teams. And despite the Yankees winning 101 in 2004, no one on the team had more than 14 wins, as many as Vazquez had. Yeah, yeah, six man staff...

Again, he only played on one losing team during that time span.

Come on, we all have eyes! We saw him consistently break down/loose focus (whatever the label) as the game progressed. He's never proven to be more than a back of the rotation pitcher. Teams pay young pitchers on stuff and potential not guys with 9 ML seasons. He is what he is...

esbrechtel
03-06-2007, 08:07 PM
And we can't lock Crede/Iguchi...WHY?
my thoughts exactly....

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 08:09 PM
Again, he only played on one losing team during that time span.

Come on, we all have eyes! We saw him consistently break down/loose focus (whatever the label) as the game progressed. He's never proven to be more than a back of the rotation pitcher. Teams pay young pitcher's on stuff and potential not guys with 9 ML seasons. He is what he is...

A .500 or better record doesn't mean a team is good. The Nationals were a .500 team in 2005 and can hardly be considered good.

Did you miss some of his games down the stretch last season? How about against Boston where he went 8 solid and gave up 1 run on 3 hits while walking 3 and striking out 11...and LOST. Essentially his whole September was like that. He had 5 starts in September and the offense rewarded him with 6 runs total. Tough to win under those circumstances.

But based on the market, this is still a decent deal. Vazquez is an innings eater and who knows, maybe he will return to Montreal form after not having to start fresh again on a new team. I guess we'll have to wait and see...

SouthSide_HitMen
03-06-2007, 08:15 PM
C/mon SouthSide, get real! :rolleyes:....

Jack McDowell and Robin Ventura among them, there have been several bitter or just plain crazy contract issues with what always seems to be the home-grown guys, that something always seems to be off kilter.

But the salary thing has gotten so out of whack it is not even worth discussing anymore. Anyone who considers giving a pitcher an extension that will be worth more than $1 million per WIN just shows how outrageous the money has become.

:rolleyes:

Just because you feel the market is overpriced doesn't mean this is a bad deal. Kenny Williams has to deal in reality and sign players based on the market place and his budget, not what he (or you or I or anyone else) thinks players should be paid. Ballplayers are entitled to a certain % of ever growing revenues. I rather they get it than JR since they are the ones we pay to see perform.

You came up with Jack McDowell and Robin Ventura as your examples of the discarded rusty Fords.

Jack McDowell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcdowja01.shtml):

1995: 15-10 NY Yankees 3.93 ERA
1996: 13-9 Cleveland, 5.11 ERA
1997: 3-3 Cleveland, 5.09 ERA
1998: 5-3 Anaheim, 5.09 ERA
1999: 0-4 Anaheim, 8.05 ERA

Robin Ventura (http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/venturo01.shtml):

1999: NY Mets .301, 32 HR
2000: NY Mets .232, 24 HR
2001: NY Mets .237, 21 HR
2002: NY Yankees .247, 27 HR
2003: NYY & LAD .242, 14 HR
2004: LA Dodgers .243, 5 HR

Both players signed multiyear deals after the best years with the White Sox. Both had very good first years away from the White Sox and then their production dropped dramatically. McDowell had 26 starts his final three seasons. Both are great examples of the White Sox keeping the right players and letting the overpriced players on the decline go.

If Vazquez does not stay healthy or his numbers drop off than it will have been a bad deal. Most people (including Kenny Williams) expect his numbers to stay the same or improve slightly and that he will stay healthy during the next four seasons. Time will tell.

We can look at other discarded Fords if you like. You can bring up Frank Thomas who was "discarded" after 16 seasons with the club. He averaged 54 games during his final two seasons with the club. Thome (a much needed LH bat) and Konerko blocked a spot for him and even though Thomas was able to stay healthy in 2006, it wasn't a good bet that he would do so (especially at the $10 mil or whatever the club option was on his 2006).

The bottom line is you think the Vazquez deal is too much because the market is too high at this point which is your right, but it is not consistent with the market place.

JB98
03-06-2007, 08:16 PM
It's widely known that I'm no Friend of Javy Vazquez.

Javy = fools gold. Great stuff, mediocre results.

I don't care what teams he has been on. I've seen the guy pitch through the years, and he has never developed enough consistency to merit a big contract. That hasn't stopped him from getting one from the Sox, unfortunately.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 08:17 PM
It's widely known that I'm no Friend of Javy Vazquez.

Javy = fools gold. Great stuff, mediocre results.

I don't care what teams he has been on. I've seen the guy pitch through the years, and he has never developed enough consistency to merit a big contract. That hasn't stopped him from getting one from the Sox, unfortunately.

Amen

chisoxmike
03-06-2007, 08:18 PM
It's widely known that I'm no Friend of Javy Vazquez.

Javy = fools gold. Great stuff, mediocre results.

I don't care what teams he has been on. I've seen the guy pitch through the years, and he has never developed enough consistency to merit a big contract. That hasn't stopped him from getting one from the Sox, unfortunately.

Let's also not forget the Sox lost the last 10 games Vazquez started in 2006.

:KW
"Sign this man."

98navigator
03-06-2007, 08:20 PM
A .500 or better record doesn't mean a team is good. The Nationals were a .500 team in 2005 and can hardly be considered good.

Did you miss some of his games down the stretch last season? How about against Boston where he went 8 solid and gave up 1 run on 3 hits while walking 3 and striking out 11...and LOST. Essentially his whole September was like that. He had 5 starts in September and the offense rewarded him with 6 runs total. Tough to win under those circumstances.

But based on the market, this is still a decent deal. Vazquez is an innings eater and who knows, maybe he will return to Montreal form after not having to start fresh again on a new team. I guess we'll have to wait and see...

My only point about the team's records was to illustrate that he has had very little reason to not win games over the years. If he were a good pitcher he'd win on a loosing team. Get real. Zambrano won 16 games on a stupid team that only won 66.

There isn't enough Sox kool-aid in the world to help me swallow this deal. It's bad.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 08:25 PM
If he were a good pitcher he'd win on a loosing team. Get real. Zambrano won 16 games on a stupid team that only won 66.

There isn't enough Sox kool-aid in the world to help me swallow this deal. It's bad.

No, if he was a GREAT pitcher he would win on a losing team. Clemens had a 1.87 ERA on the Astros in 2005 and still only won 13 games.

And Zambrano is much better than Vazquez so I don't see the point in comparing them. He'll be making $19 million next season.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-06-2007, 08:26 PM
Let's also not forget the Sox lost the last 10 games Vazquez started in 2006.

:KW
"Sign this man."

Lets also remember the White Sox scored 19 runs (1.9 runs per game) during those final ten games.

Randy Johnson was 16-14 with a 2.60 ERA with Arizona. Clemens was 13-8 & 7-6 with 1.87 and 2.30 ERAs the last two seasons. There isn't much a pitcher can do about wins when your team isn't scoring runs for you.

Win - Loss is more of a team record than a pitcher's record. Look at starts per year, innings pitched, runs allowed, strikeouts.Vazquez answers the bell everytime. He usually has 6 or 7 bad starts a year but the remaining 25-27 are solid - excellent (0-3 runs allowed). He was very good last year at the start and end of the season and had a bad middle portion (mid June to mid August). Contreras, Garland and Buehrle also performed well at times and were bad at other points of the season. Garcia thought only a handful of games were "big" enough to get up for - most of which were after we were eliminated. :rolleyes:

chisoxmike
03-06-2007, 08:28 PM
Garcia thought only a handful of games were "big" enough to get up for - most of which were after we were eliminated.

We were elminated the final Monday of the season, September 25 to be exact. The only game Garcia pitched after we were elminated was September 29

pearso66
03-06-2007, 08:31 PM
I seem to remember people 2 years ago saying Garland could never win more than 12 games, and he went out and won 18 for 2 straight years. I think Vazquez can be very good, and I'm going to predict he will get less than the $1 mil per win as someone else projected.

And for those saying Buehrle is as good as gone. Remember last year when everyone said either Contreras or Garland were gone after the year, and then Jose signed his deal, making it a given that Garland was gone. Garland then resigned a couple of weeks later. This could be the same, saying, we have signed a pitcher, now we don't NEED to sign you. If Buehrle really wants to stay like he says he does, he will now not make the Sox overpay, as he knows they don't need to resign him.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 08:33 PM
No, if he was a GREAT pitcher he would win on a losing team. Clemens had a 1.87 ERA on the Astros in 2005 and still only won 13 games.

And Zambrano is much better than Vazquez so I don't see the point in comparing them. He'll be making $19 million next season.

The Zambrano comment was meant for whomever it was that said they expect Javy to win 18-22 games next season. We just better hope he's a .500 pitcher this year because his inability to win more than he loses is written all over his resume.

JB98
03-06-2007, 08:34 PM
Let's also not forget the Sox lost the last 10 games Vazquez started in 2006.

That doesn't bother me as much as the rampant inconsistency. Vazquez pitched pretty well in September, but that doesn't make up for how brutal he was in June and July.

As I indicated, too inconsistent to merit a contract like this, IMO.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 08:34 PM
Let's also not forget the Sox lost the last 10 games Vazquez started in 2006.

:KW
"Sign this man."

Across those 10 games, Vazquez pitched 64 innings and gave up 30 earned runs. Certainly not great but not terrible (numbers inflated by one game where he gave up 6 runs, all other were 4 or less). The number of runs the offense scored for him? 19. 19! That's an average of less than two runs a game of support and the Sox were shut out in three of those games.

Compare that to a guy like Garcia who pitched 69 innings over his last 10 games. Guess what? He gave up 30 earned runs as well. So the ERAs are essentially the same. But Garcia went 7-2. Sox runs scored in those games? 71, more than THREE TIMES the runs the Sox put up when Vazquez pitched.

Food for thought...

chisoxmike
03-06-2007, 08:36 PM
As I indicated, too inconsistent to merit a contract like this, IMO.

And that's all it really comes down to.

It's not just 2006 was his only inconsistent season...it's been his entire career. A career 100-105 starter does not warrent a contract like this.

gobears1987
03-06-2007, 08:36 PM
Looks like Vazquez really likes it here and wants to stay. The total value of the deal is well below market
This is NOT a below market signing. Vazquez is not some stud ace. He is a .500 headcase like Carl Pavano. Vaz is actually getting more per year than Pavano.

KW just signed us a piece of crap pitcher who can't pitch more than 5 innings in a game without blowing up. I would be much happier if he had used this money to keep a real pitcher like Mark Buehrle.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 08:36 PM
I seem to remember people 2 years ago saying Garland could never win more than 12 games, and he went out and won 18 for 2 straight years. I think Vazquez can be very good, and I'm going to predict he will get less than the $1 mil per win as someone else projected.

And for those saying Buehrle is as good as gone. Remember last year when everyone said either Contreras or Garland were gone after the year, and then Jose signed his deal, making it a given that Garland was gone. Garland then resigned a couple of weeks later. This could be the same, saying, we have signed a pitcher, now we don't NEED to sign you. If Buehrle really wants to stay like he says he does, he will now not make the Sox overpay, as he knows they don't need to resign him.

It's not nearly the same. Garland is 3 years younger and firmly in his prime. Vasquez is what he is. Really, if this guy was on another team we'd all be bashing this deal heartily.

oeo
03-06-2007, 08:37 PM
So did Borchard. What's the point?

:dunno:

That Daver said he didn't think he could play anything other than LF because of lack of arm strength. I just said that's all we know for sure is that he has a very strong arm...so saying he can't play the outfield because he has a lack of arm strength sounds like crap to me.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-06-2007, 08:39 PM
We were elminated the final Monday of the season, Garcia pitched one game after that.

We may have been mathematically alive, but the White Sox were about done by mid September. The White Sox scored 28 runs in three of Garcia's final 4 games games, or 9 more in seven less games than they did for Vazquez.

I know people here don't like Vazquez, but if he had 28 runs scored on his behalf over 3 games (or even 6, make that 12 games) he would have had a much better record than the White Sox had when they scored less than 2 runs per game for him over his last ten starts. The White Sox were 14-9 in Vazquez' other starts during the year.

Many people here don't like Vazquez and don't like the deal. I have always liked Vazquez and I still like him. I also like the deal.

I think he will go 17-12 and have a 4.20 ERA next year. He will have better defense behind him and a better bullpen to close out games for him this season. I also think his deal is better than most if not all of the starting pitchers signed this off-season and the price will only get higher in future years.

I've said my piece and bookmarked this post. I'll revisit in October to see how Vazquez did.

chisoxmike
03-06-2007, 08:41 PM
I think he will go 17-12 and have a 4.20 ERA. He will have better defense behind him and a better bullpen to close out games for him this season. I also think his deal is better than most if not all of the starting pitchers signed this off-season and the price will only get higher in future years.

Let's hope.:bandance: :gulp:

JB98
03-06-2007, 08:44 PM
Let's hope.:bandance: :gulp:

Yep. If we're going to win it this year, we need Vazquez to prove you and I wrong. No question about it.

kba
03-06-2007, 08:50 PM
As a side note, this signing doesn't help Phil Rogers' credibility. After all, he's the one who told us (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-0612240227dec24,1,4246025.column?coll=chi-sportswhitesox-hed):

On the surface, the McCarthy deal is another part of the Williams/Jerry Reinsdorf plan to replace, rather than re-sign, Buehrle, Garland and Vazquez....This is a despicable plan....


Don't forget this (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-061206rogers,1,2137639.column?coll=cs-columnists-navigation) one:


Having inhaled their cigars and digested the developments, Williams declared his club has no plans to extend the contracts of Mark Buehrle beyond 2007 or Jon Garland, Jose Contreras and Javier Vazquez beyond 2008.

In other words between now and Opening Day 2009, the Sox either will trade or lose to free agency every member of the starting rotation, including the four guys who won a World Series 14 months ago. Are these guys nuts?Rogers wrote several columns based on what now appears to be a flawed premise (and other writers jumped on the same bandwagon). Will any of them hold themselves accountable now?

chisoxmike
03-06-2007, 08:55 PM
Yep. If we're going to win it this year, we need Vazquez to prove you and I wrong. No question about it.

I'd rather be wrong than right.

JB98
03-06-2007, 08:57 PM
I'd rather be wrong than right.

Definitely. That's what differentiates us from the animals. And HomeFish. :D:

delben91
03-06-2007, 08:59 PM
Definitely. That's what differentiates us from the animals. And HomeFish. :D:

I don't see you guys posting graphs either. :cool:

JB98
03-06-2007, 09:01 PM
I don't see you guys posting graphs either. :cool:

Yeah, I suck at math. :D:

chisox77
03-06-2007, 09:04 PM
I have understood the logic of every move, such as a trade, FA signing, contract extension that the White Sox have made during the last few years under KW. I understand the logic of this one, but I just don't know about it. Even with an inflated market, it seems that Javy hasn't done that much to deserve it from the Sox, who have other priorities as well (Dye, Iguchi, Creded, Burls, etc.)

southwstchi4life
03-06-2007, 09:06 PM
I like the deal, I like vasquez, Coops gotta little work to do with him

98navigator
03-06-2007, 09:07 PM
I'm really livid about this deal. If Kenny really believed that there was going to be a "market correction" next year (like he's been telling everyone) why did he sign this guy to an over priced extension while telling Dye, Buehrle, and Tada that no negotiations are forthcoming? The Sox will have to pay more if these guys hit free agency. Also, why are we playing hardball with Crede?? I know he still has another year but there should be an extension in the works and not infighting...

I've been waiting for something good to happen all offseason but I was buying into the Sox being fiscally responsible. For me, this deal represents hypocrisy. We've paid handsomely for mediocrity and we still have questions about our other guys.

Now I'm really upset about this whole 5th starter thing... If we were going to pay up we should have tried to keep Freddy. So now we have a mystery at the 5th starter spot but we should be happy because Javy is extended for another 3 years. :rolleyes::angry: :whiner::whiner:

Lip Man 1
03-06-2007, 09:12 PM
Two points:

1. In my opinion there will NOT be a 'market correction' next season. When you have guys like Zambrano, Buehrle, Andruw Jones, Dye ect on the market, the price of poker isn't going to go down one iota.

2. Scott Merkin now has a story at whitesox.com on this. In it (which I found very interesting) he says that immediately after the signing was announced Williams took the time to meet personally with Buehrle and explain everything. The story said Buehrle appreciated the gesture and asked a few questions during the discussion (but mostly listened...)

Lip

SBSoxFan
03-06-2007, 09:23 PM
2. Javier Vazquez is Ted Lilly in absolutely no way except for the fact they both pitch. Ted Lilly is a career mediocrity who cashed in on a desperate team's desire to fool their fans. Vazquez is a stud pitcher who has been tossed around from bad situation to bad situation and needs to settle in to return to his ace form.

Vazquez also took a pay cut - $12.3 (?) million for 2005 to $11.5 per year over the life of the contract. What free agent pitcher did that? Way to go Kenny! I'm with the rest who believe this is going to be a good deal.

:bandance:

98navigator
03-06-2007, 09:23 PM
Two points:

1. In my opinion there will NOT be a 'market correction' next season. When you have guys like Zambrano, Buehrle, Andruw Jones, Dye ect on the market, the price of poker isn't going to go down one iota.

2. Scott Merkin now has a story at whitesox.com on this. In it (which I found very interesting) he says that immediately after the signing was announced Williams took the time to meet personally with Buehrle and explain everything. The story said Buehrle appreciated the gesture and asked a few questions during the discussion (but mostly listened...)

Lip

I don't think there will be either but Kenny's been singing that song all offseason. I just don't understand the motives. The disagreements with Buehrle and Crede (and the general blowing off of Iguchi and Dye) don't make since in light of this move today.

This move is unbelievable. BTW, I can't expect anything more than an in-house spin from Merkin. I can't wait to read the objective reviews of this move. It just doesn't make sense... Javy wasn't soon to be a FA. If we have so many good young arms why are we blocking a spot in the rotation? Who's to say that one of our young guys doesn't have the ability to outpitch him for ML minimum in a couple of years????

98navigator
03-06-2007, 09:24 PM
Vazquez also took a pay cut - $12.3 (?) million for 2005 to $11.5 per year over the life of the contract. What free agent pitcher did that? Way to go Kenny! I'm with the rest who believe this is going to be a good deal.

:bandance:

Just because he's been grossly overpaid for years (while the Ted Lilly's of the world are catching up) doesn't mean this should be applauded.

kevingrt
03-06-2007, 09:27 PM
I don't really understand this move at all. This kid has shown promise I agree, but it seems like there are so many more deserving players on this team that need a contract extension sooner then Vasquez did. And some of those guys are as young if not younger then Vasquez. I don't know if this one will work out. I'd like to here Kenny's explanation on it tomorrow.

I do like the meeting he had with Buehrle though. At least Kenny knows he is doing crazy things, or at least these things appear crazy to us fans and probably players like MB.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 09:27 PM
I don't think there will be either but Kenny's been singing that song all offseason. I just don't understand the motives. The disagreements with Buehrle and Crede (and the general blowing off of Iguchi and Dye) don't make since in light of this move today.

This move is unbelievable. BTW, I can't expect anything more than an in-house spin from Merkin. I can't wait to read the objective reviews of this move. It just doesn't make sense... Javy wasn't soon to be a FA. If we have so many good young arms why are we blocking a spot in the rotation? Who's to say that one of our young guys doesn't have the ability to outpitch him for ML minimum in a couple of years????

When are people going to learn that what Kenny says to the media and what he actually does are two different things?

In regards to the young arms, how is Vazquez "blocking" a spot? Essentially none of the young arms have proven themselves at the major league level. Maybe they will be great, maybe they will suck but at this point, you need to keep some veterans around.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 09:32 PM
When are people going to learn that what Kenny says to the media and what he actually does are two different things?

In regards to the young arms, how is Vazquez "blocking" a spot? Essentially none of the young arms have proven themselves at the major league level. Maybe they will be great, maybe they will suck but at this point, you need to keep some veterans around.

His contract wasn't about to expire. Why not just let him pitch and show that he can earn the extra money? Now he has a guaranteed spot for an additional 3 years. That's one less spot in the rotation for someone who can put up a winning record.

Also, I don't buy the craziness about Kenny saying one thing and doing another as a stroke of genius.

BTW, the "maybe they will suck" part is my fear. We have a 5th starter question mark and in light of this move, I don't understand it.

Brian26
03-06-2007, 09:37 PM
Well with this signing hopefully Buerhle, Dye, Crede, and/or Gooch are next.

That's just not going to happen.

Williams and Reinsdorf have used the $100 million mark as a benchmark everytime they've talked about payroll over the past two years.

Vazquez and Konerko now make a combined $25 million a year, allocating 25% of the payroll to two guys.

When you start thinking about the money Dye, Crede and Buehrle could command on the open market ($12-$15 million a year), it would be very unrealistic to expect the Sox to re-sign all three of them. Let's assume Dye and Buehrle would settle for "low" contracts at $12 million a year. That would allocate $49 million to four guys on the 25-man roster. I just don't see how that would be a fiscally responsible move.

I think realistically we should be able to keep one of these big three along with Iguchi. I hate to be pessimistic about it because I have a soft spot for the '05 team like we all do, but I just don't see how it can work.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 09:44 PM
His contract wasn't about to expire. Why not just let him pitch and show that he can earn the extra money? Now he has a guaranteed spot for an additional 3 years. That's one less spot in the rotation for someone who can put up a winning record.

Also, I don't buy the craziness about Kenny saying one thing and doing another as a stroke of genius.

If Vazquez pitches like a champ in 2007, he'll have free agency on the mind for after the 2008 season. The Sox could be in the same situation that they are now with Buehrle. Vazquez may think he is getting the big payday, will not want to sign an extension and the Sox could lose him anyway. They get two extra years this way and based on the way pitching salary is going, this could be a great deal. Or Vazquez's arm could fall off tomorrow. Nevertheless, this is a decent gamble.

And when did I say KW saying one thing and doing another was genius? Time and time again KW says he won't do this and won't do that, fans fly off the handle and then Kenny "surprises" everyone. If anything, people should stop believing him when he says "no extensions to Dye or Iguchi" and the like and think the whole organization is going down the tubes.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 09:54 PM
If Vazquez pitches like a champ in 2007, he'll have free agency on the mind for after the 2008 season. The Sox could be in the same situation that they are now with Buehrle. Vazquez may think he is getting the big payday, will not want to sign an extension and the Sox could lose him anyway. They get two extra years this way and based on the way pitching salary is going, this could be a great deal. Or Vazquez's arm could fall off tomorrow. Nevertheless, this is a decent gamble.

And when did I say KW saying one thing and doing another was genius? Time and time again KW says he won't do this and won't do that, fans fly off the handle and then Kenny "surprises" everyone. If anything, people should stop believing him when he says "no extensions to Dye or Iguchi" and the like and think the whole organization is going down the tubes.

IF Vasquez "pitches like a champ" in 2007 it will be a career year. Why is this a decent gamble? This guy is a headcase loser who's 5 games under .500 in his career. If we're going to take a good gamble, let's gamble on Buehrle's winning career! Let's gamble that last year was an aberration.

What has Javier Vazquez done in his career that makes you think he's more than a 4th starter?

Listen, I appreciate Kenny for the 2005 Sox but that was a magical year. Please don't act like he hasn't made bad moves in the past or that he won't in the future. Just because he engineered a WS winner doesn't mean he's infallible!

santo=dorf
03-06-2007, 10:01 PM
What has Javier Vazquez done in his career that makes you think he's more than a 4th starter?

He pitched well for three years with a bad baseball club.

He strikes out a lot of guys, doesn't walk that many, has a very respectable WHIP, gives you 200 innings, and his HR rate was pretty good last season.

psyclonis
03-06-2007, 10:03 PM
:dunno:
First, KW didnt trade for Crawford...
Now this?

:supernana:

MarySwiss
03-06-2007, 10:04 PM
By the time I saw this, it was 12 pages, and I don't plan to wade through them.

That said, I like Javy, always have, and I think he will come up big for us in 2007.

TheOldRoman
03-06-2007, 10:10 PM
1. In my opinion there will NOT be a 'market correction' next season. When you have guys like Zambrano, Buehrle, Andruw Jones, Dye ect on the market, the price of poker isn't going to go down one iota.
I think that is just why there will be a market correction. This offseason was a horrible year for free agency. Teams had money burning holes in their pockets, and with so little talent to go around, teams went crazy. When crap like Carlos Lee gets $100 million, insanity is the only word applicable. When the "top" talent on the market was gone (with ridiculous contracts), the market was bloated, and teams resorted to throwing monopoly money at garbage. If Lee and Soriano are worth $16mil a year, how much would great power hitters get? Would A-Rod get $30 mil? Would Pujols get $32 mil? Would Johan Santana get $28 mil? Based off of this offseason's contracts, that would be their worth.
However, there simply isn't that much money to go around. Unlike in 06, the 07 offseason will see some top-flight talent. I believe the top talent will get very similar contracts to 06's "top" talent (which is actually mediocre in comparison). With the top talent getting $16-18 mil, it will probably drop 07's Ted Lilly's into the $8 million range. Teams are going to spend relatively the same as this offseason, only the talent will be greater.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 10:12 PM
IF Vasquez "pitches like a champ" in 2007 it will be a career year. Why is this a decent gamble? This guy is a headcase loser who's 5 games under .500 in his career. If we're going to take a good gamble, let's gamble on Buehrle's winning career! Let's gamble that last year was an aberration.

What has Javier Vazquez done in his career that makes you think he's more than a 4th starter?

Listen, I appreciate Kenny for the 2005 Sox but that was a magical year. Please don't act like he hasn't made bad moves in the past or that he won't in the future. Just because he engineered a WS winner doesn't mean he's infallible!

The Sox offered a deal to Buehrle and he declined. Buehrle sees the writing on the wall and realizes he can clean up next season. He only has to pitch at his career average and he is looking at $16 million/4 yr deal, minimum. And that would be a major hometown discount for the Sox. I feel he will get far more on the open market and KW's moves over the years show he isn't willing to give long deals to pitchers. If Buehrle is offered $85/5, will the Sox match it? I doubt it and I don't think they should.

Have you seen what passes for a 4th starter these days? If Vazquez is your team's 4th starter and he is making $11 million, then your team has an excellent staff.

I never said Kenny didn't make moves that later turned out to be bad but you can't deny t hat he is doing everything he can to put a winner on the field. If that means shipping out fan favorites, veterans, etc., then so be it. You can question the results but you certainly can't question the motives.

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 10:15 PM
I think that is just why there will be a market correction. This offseason was a horrible year for free agency. Teams had money burning holes in their pockets, and with so little talent to go around, teams went crazy. When crap like Carlos Lee gets $100 million, insanity is the only word applicable. When the "top" talent on the market was gone (with ridiculous contracts), the market was bloated, and teams resorted to throwing monopoly money at garbage. If Lee and Soriano are worth $16mil a year, how much would great power hitters get? Would A-Rod get $30 mil? Would Pujols get $32 mil? Would Johan Santana get $28 mil? Based off of this offseason's contracts, that would be their worth.
However, there simply isn't that much money to go around. Unlike in 06, the 07 offseason will see some top-flight talent. I believe the top talent will get very similar contracts to 06's "top" talent (which is actually mediocre in comparison). With the top talent getting $16-18 mil, it will probably drop 07's Ted Lilly's into the $8 million range. Teams are going to spend relatively the same as this offseason, only the talent will be greater.

I would agree with you on a correction for position players but next year's starting pitching staff is just as weak as this year's. Starting pitchers will be raking it in once again and if teams want a lefty, they better get out their wallets.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 10:15 PM
He pitched well for three years with a bad baseball club.

He strikes out a lot of guys, doesn't walk that many, has a very respectable WHIP, gives you 200 innings, and his HR rate was pretty good last season.


Strikeouts don't mean anything. He can strike out 14 in the first 5 innings and find a way to lose the game in the 6th. You're applauding a guy who excels on bad teams but is less than average to average on winning teams? He was below .500 on a 90 win team last year. He was only 4 games over .500 on a powerhouse Yankees team that won 101 regular season games.

I don't care that he pitches 200 innings. I'm willing to bet that one of our kids could put up similar serviceable, below .500, numbers for a lot less. He's a 9 year veteran. How someone can expect him to jump up and win 18-20 games is beyond me. He's only won as many as 16 once (6 seasons ago).

psyclonis
03-06-2007, 10:18 PM
market correction?
We're lucky theres not a salary minimum... and owners are just happy living off rev sharing, tv deals etc... If anything salaries will go up... Santana will make $25+ a yr and if he wins another Cy Young award... I'm willing to bet the yanks would pay $30 million a year. Its only money and the talent pool for GREAT players is sooooo small. :gulp:

pearso66
03-06-2007, 10:18 PM
Contreras was nothing more than a mediocre pitcher when the Sox traded for him, and he was between 4-6 years older than Vazquez is now. That didn't stop him from breaking out in the 05 season and becoming our staff ace the end of the year through the beginning of the 06 season (until he got hurt).

I was shot down on the comparing him to Garland because Garland is younger, so I figured I'd compare him to someone who is older.

goon
03-06-2007, 10:18 PM
Strikeouts don't mean anything. He can strike out 14 in the first 5 innings and find a way to lose the game in the 6th. You're applauding a guy who excels on bad teams but is less than average to average on winning teams? He was below .500 on a 90 win team last year. He was only 4 games over .500 on a powerhouse Yankees team that won 101 regular season games.

I don't care that he pitches 200 innings. I'm willing to bet that one of our kids could put up similar serviceable, below .500, numbers for a lot less. He's a 9 year veteran. How someone can expect him to jump up and win 18-20 games is beyond me. He's only won as many as 16 once (6 seasons ago).

okay, you win.

please stop talking.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 10:19 PM
The Sox offered a deal to Buehrle and he declined. Buehrle sees the writing on the wall and realizes he can clean up next season. He only has to pitch at his career average and he is looking at $16 million/4 yr deal, minimum. And that would be a major hometown discount for the Sox. I feel he will get far more on the open market and KW's moves over the years show he isn't willing to give long deals to pitchers. If Buehrle is offered $85/5, will the Sox match it? I doubt it and I don't think they should.

Have you seen what passes for a 4th starter these days? If Vazquez is your team's 4th starter and he is making $11 million, then your team has an excellent staff.

I never said Kenny didn't make moves that later turned out to be bad but you can't deny t hat he is doing everything he can to put a winner on the field. If that means shipping out fan favorites, veterans, etc., then so be it. You can question the results but you certainly can't question the motives.

I don't deny that he thinks this is the right move but that doesn't mean that it is.

As far as Buehrle is concerned, a lot of players turn down a team's initial offer. Considering his strong career, the amount offered was out of line with expectations. The Javy situation is different. He doesn't have a track record of success. To give him money and a partial no trade clause is lunacy.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 10:20 PM
okay, you win.

please stop talking.

you don't have to read it

itsnotrequired
03-06-2007, 10:21 PM
I don't care that he pitches 200 innings. I'm willing to bet that one of our kids could put up similar serviceable, below .500, numbers for a lot less. He's a 9 year veteran. How someone can expect him to jump up and win 18-20 games is beyond me. He's only won as many as 16 once (6 seasons ago).

None of the young guns are even close to being able to throw 200 innings in a season. I don't feel he will get to 18 wins but 16 is certainly reasonable if he gets it together mentally. 16 wins from a 4th starter is fabulous.

santo=dorf
03-06-2007, 10:21 PM
Strikeouts don't mean anything. He can strike out 14 in the first 5 innings and find a way to lose the game in the 6th. You're applauding a guy who excels on bad teams but is less than average to average on winning teams? He was below .500 on a 90 win team last year. He was only 4 games over .500 on a powerhouse Yankees team that won 101 regular season games.

I don't care that he pitches 200 innings. I'm willing to bet that one of our kids could put up similar serviceable, below .500, numbers for a lot less. He's a 9 year veteran. How someone can expect him to jump up and win 18-20 games is beyond me. He's only won as many as 16 once (6 seasons ago).
Obviously Vazquez hasn't been the same since the Yankee treatment, but he has shown a ton of promise and talent, so I think there's a good chance he can contribute positive things to this ball club.

W-L is a piss poor way to evaluate a pitcher's performance. As it was stated before, Vazquez had the second best record on that 101 win yankee team :rolleyes:

I also wonder how close you have been paying attention to White Sox baseball the past five seasons if you think one our kids can put up the same numbers, and thinking not going 200 innings is a big deal.

Vernam
03-06-2007, 10:24 PM
I'm just waiting to see what kind of spin Phil Rogers puts on this one...Would you settle for Mark Gonzales (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070306soxvazquez,1,3063348.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)? He says:

Vazquez's signing also increases the likelihood that popular left-hander Mark Buehrle will leave for free agency after the season. The extension shows the Sox have faith in Vazquez despite an 11-12 record and 4.84 ERA last season. Vazquez expressed relief last January that he wasn't dealt. He had the distinction of pitching for four teams (Montreal, New York Yankees, Arizona and the Sox) in four consecutive seasons. He has a lifetime 100-105 record but has failed to progress since leaving Montreal.Completely unbiased. :rolleyes:

Unless you buy the idea that signing Vazquez means there's no money for Buehrle -- and I don't -- then it's very hard to paint this as a foolish move. Just imagine what the Flubs would've paid Vazquez if he'd been a free agent this off-season. Barring a serious injury, we won't get stuck holding the bag on this contract.

Their 2006 stats are amazingly similar, except Vazquez gave up 13 fewer homers (23 vs. 36 for Buehrle) and struck out almost twice as many (184 vs. 98). For all his shortcomings, Vazquez has been pretty consistent -- consistently mediocre, admittedly. That helps make this a safe signing. But Buehrle's drop-off last year was shocking, to the point that I don't blame KW for not upping the ante so far.

Much as everybody loves Buehrle, signing him for 5/$75 (not that he'd settle for that now) could be a disaster for the franchise if he doesn't rebound from last year. Now, unfortunately, if he does rebound, we couldn't afford him in any case. Sad but true. On the bright side, if he has a monster year, there's a great chance we'll have another championship to soften the blow when he leaves. I could live with that. And if he has another poor year, we'll all be thanking the heavens that we didn't tie up all that money with him.

Vernam

98navigator
03-06-2007, 10:25 PM
Contreras was nothing more than a mediocre pitcher when the Sox traded for him, and he was between 4-6 years older than Vazquez is now. That didn't stop him from breaking out in the 05 season and becoming our staff ace the end of the year through the beginning of the 06 season (until he got hurt).

I was shot down on the comparing him to Garland because Garland is younger, so I figured I'd compare him to someone who is older.

That's the exception and not the rule. Coop was able to help him with his pitching motion but what did Cooper do for Vazquez? For that matter, what did Coop do for Cliff and Neal? They got rid of them...

Like I said before, if Javy ends the season with a .500 record we should count our blessings.

FarWestChicago
03-06-2007, 10:26 PM
you don't have to read itTry not being totally redundant and depressed and, hey, somebody might actually want to read your posts. :smile:

pearso66
03-06-2007, 10:29 PM
That's the exception and not the rule. Coop was able to help him with his pitching motion but what did Cooper do for Vazquez? For that matter, what did Coop do for Cliff and Neal? They got rid of them...

Like I said before, if Javy ends the season with a .500 record we should count our blessings.


It may be an exception, but Vazquez has at least as good of stuff as Jose does, and he's younger. He's shown he can consistantly get into the 5th inning rather easily, it's the 5th/6th where he breaks down. If it's just a mental block, who's to say he can't get past it? He did at the end of last year, maybe that was just the beginning? If the Sox didn't sign him to this deal, and he wins 16-18 games next year, and then we let him go because he costs to much, 90% of people on here would be complaining that we didn't resign him when we could get him cheap.

It's a cheap enough deal, that if he isn't more than a 4th starter, they can probably unload him still rather easily at the deadline of this year or next year.

Maybe I'm biased, but I've always liked Javy, and was relieved that they traded Freddy over him.

98navigator
03-06-2007, 10:30 PM
Obviously Vazquez hasn't been the same since the Yankee treatment, but he has shown a ton of promise and talent, so I think there's a good chance he can contribute positive things to this ball club.

W-L is a piss poor way to evaluate a pitcher's performance. As it was stated before, Vazquez had the second best record on that 101 win yankee team :rolleyes:

I also wonder how close you have been paying attention to White Sox baseball the past five seasons if you think one our kids can put up the same numbers, and thinking not going 200 innings is a big deal.

Win loss over the course of a career (rather than isolating a particular year) is a fine barometer. It clearly shows, through 9 seasons, that he losses more than he wins.

Also, we have fresh arms in our system now so how can we judge them by the previous bunch?

98navigator
03-06-2007, 10:32 PM
Contreras was nothing more than a mediocre pitcher when the Sox traded for him, and he was between 4-6 years older than Vazquez is now. That didn't stop him from breaking out in the 05 season and becoming our staff ace the end of the year through the beginning of the 06 season (until he got hurt).

I was shot down on the comparing him to Garland because Garland is younger, so I figured I'd compare him to someone who is older.

Contreras was a good pitcher in his native land. He never excelled in NY but he was better than Vazquez, age not withstanding.

ChicagoHoosier
03-06-2007, 10:33 PM
So, does 11 million for a .500 pitcher with potential upside sound about right then? If so, good move for a solid pitcher.

I for one believe Vasquez will have a great season and we'll all be glad to have him on the team. But I can understand the skepticism. We'll have to wait and see and hope!

98navigator
03-06-2007, 10:35 PM
Try not being totally redundant and depressed and, hey, somebody might actually want to read your posts. :smile:

LOL, trust me, I'm not trying to be redundant but if someone responds to my post I can't change my answer. :smile:

Flight #24
03-06-2007, 11:23 PM
This is NOT a below market signing. Vazquez is not some stud ace. He is a .500 headcase like Carl Pavano. Vaz is actually getting more per year than Pavano.

KW just signed us a piece of crap pitcher who can't pitch more than 5 innings in a game without blowing up. I would be much happier if he had used this money to keep a real pitcher like Mark Buehrle.

Not to pick on you, but this was the clearest example of what a number of complaints about Javy have been, and they're rife with misconceptions.

#1 - Javy's being overpaid - Javy's making similar money to Ted Lilly, Gil Meche, Pavano, etc. Statistically, he's had similar or better stats. Like it or not, that's the market (and I'm squarely in the camp that it's only going up from here after '07). Guys making less are guys like Adam Eaton - who have either injury problems or who are significantly worse than Javy. If Javy had pitched this year like he did in the 2d half of '06, he'd be in line to make $2-4M more on a longer deal. If he pitches as he has the past 3 years, it's market rate. If he pitches like the end of last year, it's a steal. See #2 for more on that.

#2 - Javy's a 5-inning headcase - When he came to the Sox, the general line of thinking was that after some time under Coop, he could thrive. Well, in 12 starts after 8/1, he:
- completed 6 IP or more in 9 of them, and had 9 quality starts (>6IP, <=3ER).
- had a 3.81 ERA and a 1.15 WHIP, with 23 BBs and 86Ks.
- had all of 1 start that could be considered a blowup - 6ER in 7IP. The worst "other" starts were outings like 4ER in 5.2IP, 3ER in 5.1IP and 4ER in 7IP.

Seems like significant improvement to me. Yes, it's not the same as doing it all year, but it's exactly what was reasonable to expect.

#3 - they should have resigned Buehrle instead - They offered a bigger deal to Buehrle and he turned them down. IMO the biggest deal is the years: Javy was willing to take their terms, Mark wasn't. It's not like they're paying him instead of Mark, it's that Mark wants a ton more. So you'd have to give hiim Javy's money AND someone else's.

Hitmen77
03-06-2007, 11:55 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

...but maybe it's really only 1 tomato if you don't count all of 98navigator's posts that say the same thing.:wink:

Hitmen77
03-07-2007, 12:10 AM
Unless you buy the idea that signing Vazquez means there's no money for Buehrle -- and I don't -- then it's very hard to paint this as a foolish move. Just imagine what the Flubs would've paid Vazquez if he'd been a free agent this off-season. Barring a serious injury, we won't get stuck holding the bag on this contract. . . . . For all his shortcomings, Vazquez has been pretty consistent -- consistently mediocre, admittedly. That helps make this a safe signing.

Well said. I'm not sure if Javy will ever live up to his potential and return to how he pitched in Montreal. I sure hope he does. But, barring an unforseen injury this signing won't be a disaster. Reading through this thread reminds me of how much Sox fans like to be unhappy about anything.

Their 2006 stats are amazingly similar, except Vazquez gave up 13 fewer homers (23 vs. 36 for Buehrle) and struck out almost twice as many (184 vs. 98). .... But Buehrle's drop-off last year was shocking, to the point that I don't blame KW for not upping the ante so far.

Much as everybody loves Buehrle, signing him for 5/$75 (not that he'd settle for that now) could be a disaster for the franchise if he doesn't rebound from last year. Now, unfortunately, if he does rebound, we couldn't afford him in any case. Sad but true. On the bright side, if he has a monster year, there's a great chance we'll have another championship to soften the blow when he leaves. I could live with that. And if he has another poor year, we'll all be thanking the heavens that we didn't tie up all that money with him.

Vernam

I think this is a very important point that most people seem to be ignoring. I'm really hoping for MB to bounce back and I think that he will. But, that 2nd half does make any huge extension offer to Buehrle risky at this point.

spiffie
03-07-2007, 12:17 AM
That's just not going to happen.

Williams and Reinsdorf have used the $100 million mark as a benchmark everytime they've talked about payroll over the past two years.

Vazquez and Konerko now make a combined $25 million a year, allocating 25% of the payroll to two guys.

When you start thinking about the money Dye, Crede and Buehrle could command on the open market ($12-$15 million a year), it would be very unrealistic to expect the Sox to re-sign all three of them. Let's assume Dye and Buehrle would settle for "low" contracts at $12 million a year. That would allocate $49 million to four guys on the 25-man roster. I just don't see how that would be a fiscally responsible move.

I think realistically we should be able to keep one of these big three along with Iguchi. I hate to be pessimistic about it because I have a soft spot for the '05 team like we all do, but I just don't see how it can work.
This is why you get the kids to fill in over time. With our bullpen of young arms, next year the probable movement of another young OF into the majors, and one of the young kids in the rotation, you have 9-10 guys making the major league minimum, or dang near it. Just for the heck of it, thoughts for 2008:
Buehrle - 14mm
Garland - 12mm
Vasquez - 11.5mm
Contreras - 10mm
Floyd - .4mm
Jenks - 1mm
Sisco - .33mm
MacDougal - 1.95mm
Aardsma - .33mm
Masset - .33mm
Thornton - .44mm
Konerko - 12mm
Thome - 7mm (with Phillies money)
Iguchi - 5mm
Uribe - 5mm
Crede - 7.5mm (arbitration/agreement)
Sweeney - .33mm
Anderson - .5mm
Dye - 13mm
Pierzysnki - 5.5mm
Hall - 1.75mm
Ozuna - 1.2mm
Mackowiak - 3.25mm
Owens - .33mm
Fields - .33mm

Total expenditure - 114.64 million. If we were to not renew Uribe and use Cintron that would likely drop that number down a couple of million. If instead of Mackowiak we went with a cheaper utility guy that gets us under $110 million, and still keeps everyone together through the 2008 season.

StillMissOzzie
03-07-2007, 12:30 AM
sadly yes, BUT I will blame the Cubs for helping to totally inflate the market

Amen! I am weary of reading that Javy is the beneficiary of "the market", when it's crap teams like the Cubs and Royals inflating said market by their need to overpay to attract ANY talent to their respective steaming piles.

I hope KW has some coin left to keep the bullpen bolstered, if Javy returns to his "5 and fly" modus operandi, the Sox will need it.

I wonder if KW made the same offer to both Javy and Freddy...Freddy said, "No, thanks" and was on the next plane out of town, and maybe Javy saw the writing on the wall.

SMO
:gulp:

vegyrex
03-07-2007, 12:57 AM
Vazquez is being over paid. Sorry I really dislike this.

TheOldRoman
03-07-2007, 12:59 AM
I said several months ago that Vazquez was the key to our season. We need Buehrle to rebound, Contreras to stay healthy, and the young BP arms to step up. However, Javy is the key. For the millionth time, it took Contreras an entire year under Coop's tutliage for him to mesh. Vazquez has now had a full year. He really looked a lot better late in the season, and I think he will finally put it all together this year.

This contract could be a very good thing for Javy. It gives him confidence and consistency. He has been on the move a lot lately. He was in a horrible situation in NY, and that really messed with him. Javy knows that a) the Sox want him, and b) he will be here for a while. That may not sound like a lot, but I think it will help him. As it stands, he is a better pitcher than Lily, and he got Lily money. If he improves a little, it is a bargain. If he dominates consistantly, it is a steal.

jabrch
03-07-2007, 01:20 AM
Given the market (Meche, Marquis, etc.) this isn't a terrible deal. It may be good, it may be market value. But it's not terrible.

People around here seem to forget that although Javy has had some trouble going too deep in games, he has been durable enough to average 215 IP over the past 7 years. There's a lot of value to having that locked up in the back end of your rotation. Even if MB walks, 2008 would have Garland, Contreras, Javy with Floyd/Danks/Gio/etc. to fill in the back of the rotation if they are ready. KW is doing a good job avoiding either overpaying the market big-time either in $ or in years. It's another 3 year deal (Contreras, Garland) that is good for both ends. MB turned down an offer last year. I'm going to assume that with the relationship between Ozzie and Freddy that we were aware that Freddy wouldn't be looking for a 3 year deal (and he won't have to) and that he was hoping more for a 5/75 type deal. I think that JR and KW will spend big bucks on a guy who they find is worth the big bucks, but not on a a guy who is maginally better than someone who'd be much cheaper.

WhiteSox5187
03-07-2007, 01:29 AM
I'm sure this has been said before, but I don't have time to look through every last post. But this essentially means that Buerhle is gone. We've essentially traded Buerhle for Vasquez, and I think that that is a horrible move. If, and it looks more like when, we let go of Mark Buerhle, it is going to haunt this organization.

spiffie
03-07-2007, 01:39 AM
I'm sure this has been said before, but I don't have time to look through every last post. But this essentially means that Buerhle is gone. We've essentially traded Buerhle for Vasquez, and I think that that is a horrible move. If, and it looks more like when, we let go of Mark Buerhle, it is going to haunt this organization.
If you actually took the time to read the thread you would see many fine responses pointing out that, no, actually this doesn't mean a damn thing about Buehrle's situation.

cburns
03-07-2007, 02:05 AM
I don't mind the signing at all. I think Vasquez could be much more valuable on a short leash. He has put up the innings the past few years, but maybe if Ozzie keeps him on a short leash his ERA would go down considerably. A lot of that does depend on the confidence our manager has with the bullpen, which hopefully is taken care of now.

DeadMoney
03-07-2007, 02:35 AM
Not to pick on you, but this was the clearest example of what a number of complaints about Javy have been, and they're rife with misconceptions.

#1 - Javy's being overpaid - Javy's making similar money to Ted Lilly, Gil Meche, Pavano, etc. Statistically, he's had similar or better stats. Like it or not, that's the market (and I'm squarely in the camp that it's only going up from here after '07). Guys making less are guys like Adam Eaton - who have either injury problems or who are significantly worse than Javy. If Javy had pitched this year like he did in the 2d half of '06, he'd be in line to make $2-4M more on a longer deal. If he pitches as he has the past 3 years, it's market rate. If he pitches like the end of last year, it's a steal. See #2 for more on that.

#2 - Javy's a 5-inning headcase - When he came to the Sox, the general line of thinking was that after some time under Coop, he could thrive. Well, in 12 starts after 8/1, he:
- completed 6 IP or more in 9 of them, and had 9 quality starts (>6IP, <=3ER).
- had a 3.81 ERA and a 1.15 WHIP, with 23 BBs and 86Ks.
- had all of 1 start that could be considered a blowup - 6ER in 7IP. The worst "other" starts were outings like 4ER in 5.2IP, 3ER in 5.1IP and 4ER in 7IP.

Seems like significant improvement to me. Yes, it's not the same as doing it all year, but it's exactly what was reasonable to expect.

#3 - they should have resigned Buehrle instead - They offered a bigger deal to Buehrle and he turned them down. IMO the biggest deal is the years: Javy was willing to take their terms, Mark wasn't. It's not like they're paying him instead of Mark, it's that Mark wants a ton more. So you'd have to give hiim Javy's money AND someone else's.

Yes, yes and yes.

With all the Javy-hate I've seen around here, I'm surprised someone got it right (For the record, I'm sure there is more then one person who is thinking along these lines, but I couldn't bare reading through this entire thread because it would've more then likely driven me insane).

Expanding on point number two a little though; most people seem to have forgotten (or just didn't watch) Javy pitch from August-on last year (evidence of this would be quotes along the lines of "I'll believe it when I see it"). FWIW, he was a different pitcher late in the season, then he was when he was struggling. And there's no denying that.

And for anyone who dislikes this - he's getting the market rate for a pitcher who has a very small history of injuries, and who is a 200 IP and a 150+ K/yr guy. By the way, he's also a fairly young too.

BNLSox
03-07-2007, 02:39 AM
I like this signing in terms of the current market. Vazquez can eat a lot of innings and has a great K/BB ratio. This makes him AMAZING trade bate if necessary, or just a steady rock in our rotation for the next four seasons. As he becomes our #2 or #3 over the next year and a half we'll all be happy we signed him for this.

Buerhle is worth SIGNIFICANTLY more than this (in his mind). Hopefully something will be worked out soon, that is if he finds his groove again.

IlliniSox4Life
03-07-2007, 03:54 AM
This is kind of off on a tangent, but letting Buehrle seemingly walk at the end of the season is pretty upsetting. He is hands down my (along with plenty of other people's) favorite player on the team. So many players forget the little kid in them that dreamed of playing in the MLB, and you can see that kid in Buehrle all the time.

People get loyal to their favorite players. Very often it's irrational when the stars are aging and their skills are slipping. That is not the case with Buehrle. He had a bad year but it doesn't seem to concern most.

There is a point when the benefits of having some consistency and rewarding your own players will pay off over constant turnover.

HotelWhiteSox
03-07-2007, 03:55 AM
Yes, yes and yes.

With all the Javy-hate I've seen around here, I'm surprised someone got it right (For the record, I'm sure there is more then one person who is thinking along these lines, but I couldn't bare reading through this entire thread because it would've more then likely driven me insane).

Expanding on point number two a little though; most people seem to have forgotten (or just didn't watch) Javy pitch from August-on last year (evidence of this would be quotes along the lines of "I'll believe it when I see it"). FWIW, he was a different pitcher late in the season, then he was when he was struggling. And there's no denying that.

And for anyone who dislikes this - he's getting the market rate for a pitcher who has a very small history of injuries, and who is a 200 IP and a 150+ K/yr guy. By the way, he's also a fairly young too.

All of those points can be disputed. #1 and 3 go hand in hand. Why is market rate okay now, when it inflated when the other FA's needed deals? Before, we were waiting for the market correction at the end of this year, and for Javier we will give him that rate even if he's a FA after next year? I don't hate Javy, but think it looks bad to some of the FAs on the team and I probably wouldn't be able to justify giving him the money based on cellar dwellars spending money stupidly to try and get fans back.

On point #2, yes, I agree, he pitched better, but I don't think he had any wins in his last month or two. Yeah, usually a win-loss record is stupid to look at, but I remember a lot of those games. Everytime the Sox would spot him a lead, he would quickly give up the same or more the next half inning.

I am interested in what goes on in the next few days. I heard that Javy approached the Sox on wanting this type of deal, and I heard on the radio that Buehrle's camp has contacted the Sox on wanting to talk in these coming days, so we'll see.

IlliniSox4Life
03-07-2007, 04:09 AM
I am interested in what goes on in the next few days. I heard that Javy approached the Sox on wanting this type of deal, and I heard on the radio that Buehrle's camp has contacted the Sox on wanting to talk in these coming days, so we'll see.

I hope so. The Sox seem to want to give out 3 year contracts, and Buehrle seems to want a 5 year contract. The ideal option would be something like a 4-5 year contract with a buyout for the 4th or 5th years. That way the Sox still have some flexibility down the road if they don't want to give him that long term of a contract, but Buehrle still gets some cash if they end up getting rid of him. Perhaps guarantee 3 year extension for 36-38 mil, with a 4th year at 16 mil with a buyout of 3-5 mil, and a 5th at 18 mil with a buyout of 3-5 mil. That way it has the potential of being the 5 year/70m contract Burls is looking for if he continues to perform. If he slips off a bit, he's still got some security with the buyout money.

MRM
03-07-2007, 08:05 AM
This is NOT a below market signing. Vazquez is not some stud ace. He is a .500 headcase like Carl Pavano. Vaz is actually getting more per year than Pavano.

KW just signed us a piece of crap pitcher who can't pitch more than 5 innings in a game without blowing up. I would be much happier if he had used this money to keep a real pitcher like Mark Buehrle.

Gil Meche 5yrs 11mil per. Ted Lilly 4 yrs 10mil per. I'll take Vazquez over either of those guys in a heartbeat. Where does the "head case" nonsense come from? Vazquez has never been a "head case". Comparing him to Pavano is an insult to the intelligence of baseball fans everywhere. Also throw the .500 record out the window. The guy had 4 excellent season in montreal only to go 11-9, 16-11, 10-13, 13-12 because the rest of his team was pathetic. Also he was 5-15 as an unready 21y.o. rookie further skewing his career record which *should* be much better if he had come up with a better team.

This deal has nothing to do with Buehrle one way or the other. Mark turned down a 3 year extenstion at over $13mil per last year. He's looking for Zito money/years and I can't blame the Sox for balking at that considering the disaster he was the second half of last season.

This deal also makes Vazquez very attractive trade bait should that become neccessary. In this market he would have definately gotten a bigger, longer deal as a F.A. 11.5mil for a 9 year vet with excellent stuff is a bargain in this market.

MRM
03-07-2007, 08:11 AM
Perhaps guarantee 3 year extension for 36-38 mil, with a 4th year at 16 mil with a buyout of 3-5 mil, and a 5th at 18 mil with a buyout of 3-5 mil.

I love it when fans play GM. NO WAY buehrle signs ANY deal that pays him LESS per season than the 13+ mil extension the Sox offered him last year. Some how you believe he'll jump on a lesser 3-year deal simply by throwing in two non-guaranteed years? His agent should lose his liscense if he even considered such a stupid offer.

russ99
03-07-2007, 08:15 AM
It's funny that everyone remembers Javier's 6th inning struggles late in the year, but everyone forgets that 2-hitter he had earlier in the season. I was at that game, and based on his dominant performance that day, certainly Vazquez has the potential to be an ace. Nice deal by the Sox and a perfect example of "give-a-little get-a-little" on both sides.

If Mark wants to stay with the Sox, which I'm not convinced he does, he needs to play that bargaining "game" too.

IndianWhiteSox
03-07-2007, 08:16 AM
This isn't as bad as some of the other extensions signed over the past few years. At least after he win 20 games and the Cy Young, the Sox can trade him to the Rangers for all of their prospects and by that time, John Danks will win 25 games and rookie of the year and Cy Young justifying the trade of Vazquez.

Sargeant79
03-07-2007, 08:25 AM
On point #2, yes, I agree, he pitched better, but I don't think he had any wins in his last month or two. Yeah, usually a win-loss record is stupid to look at, but I remember a lot of those games. Everytime the Sox would spot him a lead, he would quickly give up the same or more the next half inning.


He may not have had any wins the last month or two, but he didn't have any run support either for a lot of those starts. See the three hitter that he lost in Boston in September.

Not to mention, he was arguably the best pitcher on our staff for the first six weeks or so of the season. Everybody is just forgetting all of this because he spent June and July infuriating all of us.

Based on flashes he has shown, there is a good chance he will have an excellent year. But even if the best he does is put together more seasons like last year, this isn't a bad deal. 11.5 mil seems to be the going rate for a back-of-the-rotation innings eater these days.

jabrch
03-07-2007, 08:45 AM
letting Buehrle seemingly walk at the end of the season is pretty upsetting.

There is a point when the benefits of having some consistency and rewarding your own players will pay off over constant turnover.

They made him an offer last year. He turned it down. They aren't "letting" him walk. He is choosing (if that is what he ends up choosing) to walk.

itsnotrequired
03-07-2007, 08:46 AM
They made him an offer last year. He turned it down. They aren't "letting" him walk. He is choosing (if that is what he ends up choosing) to walk.

Exactly. It is similar to how the Sox "let" Magglio walk.

Hitmen77
03-07-2007, 09:10 AM
I'm sure this has been said before, but I don't have time to look through every last post. But this essentially means that Buerhle is gone. We've essentially traded Buerhle for Vasquez, and I think that that is a horrible move. If, and it looks more like when, we let go of Mark Buerhle, it is going to haunt this organization.

Mark Buehrle thinks you are wrong:


"Congrats to Javy," Buehrle said. "I don't think it has any effect on my outlook."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070306soxvazquez,1,3063348.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

tebman
03-07-2007, 09:17 AM
I'm willing to give KW the benefit of the doubt.

And maybe I'm kidding myself, but I wonder if there are concurrent talks going on with Buehrle. KW's got a budget in mind, and despite all of our hand-wringing I can't help but think that KW and Buehrle both want to make this happen. Maybe now that Vazquez's contract is done, Buehrle's is next.

Or maybe that should be in deep pink...

Two points:

1. In my opinion there will NOT be a 'market correction' next season. When you have guys like Zambrano, Buehrle, Andruw Jones, Dye ect on the market, the price of poker isn't going to go down one iota.

2. Scott Merkin now has a story at whitesox.com on this. In it (which I found very interesting) he says that immediately after the signing was announced Williams took the time to meet personally with Buehrle and explain everything. The story said Buehrle appreciated the gesture and asked a few questions during the discussion (but mostly listened...)
Aha! Exactly what I was thinking. Kenny, call me now for more of my advice.

Seriously, to me this seems like a logical progression. KW knows that it's going to be tougher to sign Buehrle than Dye, given what the market is and what both players have suggested in their comments. Of course Buehrle is going to try to get the best deal he can, but in the end all these guys are athletes in a team sport and the intangible of being with "my team" is a big factor. Williams knows this too, and so after securing JV and Garland for a few years and greatly improving the bullpen, he goes to Buehrle and talks. Buehrle wants security, and he wants to be on a winner. Williams is touting both when he talks to MB about a contract.

Domeshot17
03-07-2007, 09:27 AM
I think the writing was on the wall after the Mccarthy trade that the Sox are preparing for life after Buehrle. We went out and targeted 2 LEFTY pitching prospects. Add that to the fact we have Garland Jose Javier beyong this year and maybe Floyd IF he works out (and thats a monster if). I think in the end it comes down to Mark OR Jon Garland (and that could change depending on Contreras's real age and health).

The one thing Kenny has done here is this deal is saying he has accepted the market as it is. I guess I don't understand how you can hate Buehlre at 15 a year and love Vazquez at 11+. Basicaly we just paid the same price as the Cubs did for Lilly. Lilly has a better track record, Vaz has more stuff. This is the market right now, and we just gave into it.

Too much goes on behind the scenes to really know what is up. This one really is a head scratcher.

Scottiehaswheels
03-07-2007, 09:34 AM
My take on this... Vaz is a "fireballer"... The guys we got in the trades for the most part are not finesse type pitchers like Mark but rather more in the style of Javier... Not saying these guys couldn't learn a lot from Mark but their style of pitching is much more similar to Javier... Having Javy around while they are starting their careers will potentially be more adventageous to the prospects, which is part of why this deal was struck in my opinion...

D. TODD
03-07-2007, 09:47 AM
It seems like a fair deal to me. Buehrle is another case all together, yes he has done more for this franchise, but the theory of not giving more then a 3 year deal to pitchers has worked out well for the Sox. Another team is willing to give him more years, I'm sure, so it looks like he will be a tough sign. That's where some of the young pitching depth Kenny acquired will come into play.

Best case scenario is we can retain Buehrle, but it's good to see that we are at least trying to cover our bases if he moves on.

Dan H
03-07-2007, 09:50 AM
Maybe this is the going rate for 11 game winners nowadays. I hope Vazquez can play up to his potentional or the White Sox will be paying $1 million per win during the next three years. My gut response to investing in this guy is that it is dumb, real dumb.

Thome25
03-07-2007, 09:52 AM
Am I the only one who likes the Vazquez extension? I think part of Javy's problem the last couple of years is that he hasn't had the chance to settle in with one team because he has jumped around so much.

This deal will allow him to get comfortable with the Sox and know that he's here to stay. The fact that he was with the Expos, Yankees, Diamondbacks, and White Sox the past couple of years probably hurt him mentally.

I really think he's going to turn it around. IMO this is also a sign that the Sox still have some money to throw around and that we're not going to pull a Florida Marlins in 2008 and go with a staff filled with youngsters despite what the mediots are saying.

The only thing I'm really worried about is that KW and the Sox have clearly sent a messageto the fans and players (currently on our team and potential free agent signings.) that we DO NOT give pitchers anything more that 3-year deals. I'm worried that this will lead to a constant revolving door in our rotation for years to come.

That and the fact that this deal is probably the nail in Buehrle's coffin with the Sox.

johnr1note
03-07-2007, 10:16 AM
Well, others have said it already -- the reason we picked up the young, left handed power pitchers in the Garcia and McCarthy trades is insurance for the eventuality of Buehrle not signing. Our pitching staff is apparently being recast in a power pitching mode -- or at least we are trying to shape the staff with pitchers who have a better chance of succeeding in the launching pad that is the Cell. Buerhle had issues with that last year -- while Javy was showing improvement. I can see why both sides in the Buerhle contract negotiations are taking a wait and see attitude.

mterraza
03-07-2007, 10:29 AM
11.5 per year for Vazquez?!! AND he trades away Freddy Garcia? I think kenny has lost his mind?! :o:

havelj
03-07-2007, 10:31 AM
I think part of Javy's problem the last couple of years is that he hasn't had the chance to settle in with one team because he has jumped around so much....This deal will allow him to get comfortable with the Sox and know that he's here to stay. The fact that he was with the Expos, Yankees, Diamondbacks, and White Sox the past couple of years probably hurt him mentally.


Agree 100%-he is able to settle down now. I love this move.

soxfan13
03-07-2007, 10:35 AM
11.5 per year for Vazquez?!! AND he trades away Freddy Garcia? I think kenny has lost his mind?! :o:

Lets see lock up a durable arm with great stuff for relatively cheap contract compared to the way the market is going and trading away Garcia (yes durable) who IMO has lost some of his stuff, for two young arms with plenty of potential. Not too mention not having to pay thru the nose to keep Garcia. KW has definately lost it:rolleyes:

oeo
03-07-2007, 10:44 AM
11.5 per year for Vazquez?!! AND he trades away Freddy Garcia? I think kenny has lost his mind?! :o:

Are you ****ing kidding me? If we brought him back for 2008, we would be paying him 14 million. Yes, Kenny his losing his mind, he just got Javy to take a pay cut.

Unbelievable the turn Sox fans are making...

soxinem1
03-07-2007, 10:46 AM
My take on this... Vaz is a "fireballer"... The guys we got in the trades for the most part are not finesse type pitchers like Mark but rather more in the style of Javier... Not saying these guys couldn't learn a lot from Mark but their style of pitching is much more similar to Javier... Having Javy around while they are starting their careers will potentially be more adventageous to the prospects, which is part of why this deal was struck in my opinion...

What is he going to teach the younger players, how to underachierve and become a multi-millionaire? I would instruct them to stay as far away from him as possible.

If if the tables were turned and if Buehrle had Vazquez' stuff, he'd have a couple 20 win seasons and at least a Cy Young over his fireplace.

If Vazquez had Buehrle's stuff, he'd be selling shoes at Payless or working in a car wash.

Thome25
03-07-2007, 10:55 AM
Lets see lock up a durable arm with great stuff for relatively cheap contract compared to the way the market is going and trading away Garcia (yes durable) who IMO has lost some of his stuff, for two young arms with plenty of potential. Not too mention not having to pay thru the nose to keep Garcia. KW has definately lost it:rolleyes:

Are you ****ing kidding me? If we brought him back for 2008, we would be paying him 14 million. Yes, Kenny his losing his mind, he just got Javy to take a pay cut.

Unbelievable the turn Sox fans are making...


It's good to see there's still some smart, level-headed fans who post here<<<No teal required I'm dead serious!!:D:

This deal also gives Vazquez a chance to prove himself with the Sox and also show that his trade from the Dbacks to the Sox wasn't a total bust.

itsnotrequired
03-07-2007, 10:56 AM
If if the tables were turned and if Buehrle had Vazquez' stuff, he'd have a couple 20 win seasons and at least a Cy Young over his fireplace.

If Vazquez had Buehrle's stuff, he'd be selling shoes at Payless or working in a car wash.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean...

Thome25
03-07-2007, 10:59 AM
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean...

I think he's trying to say that all of Vazquez's problems are mental and if he had a level head and knew what he was doing (ala Mark Buehrle) he could go far with the stuff he has.

chisoxmike
03-07-2007, 10:59 AM
If if the tables were turned and if Buehrle had Vazquez' stuff, he'd have a couple 20 win seasons and at least a Cy Young over his fireplace.

If Vazquez had Buehrle's stuff, he'd be selling shoes at Payless or working in a car wash.

:help:

I have no idea what you just said.

itsnotrequired
03-07-2007, 11:01 AM
I think he's trying to say that all of Vazquez's problems are mental and if he had a level head and knew what he was doing (ala Mark Buehrle) he could go far with the stuff he has.

What's easier to sort out, mental issues or "stuff" issues? You can't teach "stuff". Either you have it or you don't. Mental roadblocks can be overcome.

I still don't understand what he was trying to say...

Thome25
03-07-2007, 11:06 AM
What's easier to sort out, mental issues or "stuff" issues? You can't teach "stuff". Either you have it or you don't. Mental roadblocks can be overcome.

I still don't understand what he was trying to say...

I agree with you whole-heartedly. I honestly think that Vazquez's mental issues have been due to the fact that he has jumped from team to team so much in the last couple of years.

That leads to insecurity and self doubt. He shouldn't doubt himself though with the stuff he has. I think the extension will help his psyche tremendously.

Not to get all "Dr. Phil" or anything.:D:

soxinem1
03-07-2007, 11:10 AM
What's easier to sort out, mental issues or "stuff" issues? You can't teach "stuff". Either you have it or you don't. Mental roadblocks can be overcome.

I still don't understand what he was trying to say...

What can't you understand? I am clearly stating that Vazquez is getting by on stuff alone, not pitching ability. And if Buherle had a 93-94 MPH fastball and the yacker of a curve Vazquez did, he would be even better.

Since Vazquez has demonstarted mediocre 'pitching ability', if he woke up with the stuff Buherle has, he'd be out of MLB.

Does that make sense now?:rolleyes:

And as far as wanting to be stable, I recall it was him who wanted to be traded after 2005.....

itsnotrequired
03-07-2007, 11:11 AM
What can't you understand. I am clearly stating that Vazquez is getting by on stuff alone, not pitching ability. And if Buherle had a 93-94 MPH fastball and the yacker of a curve Vazquez did, he would be even better.

Since Vazquez has demonstarted mediocre 'pitching ability', if he woke up with the stuff Buherle has, he'd be out of MLB.

Does that make sense now?:rolleyes:

This is a fantasy scenario that has little basis in reality.

spawn
03-07-2007, 11:11 AM
I'm not disappointed with this deal at all. I like Javy's potential. I remember when the thought of Contreras on this team wasn't received well with some. And with the market where it is, I think this is a fair contract. As far as Buehrle leaving...I'd hate to see him go, but honestly I'm not that upset at the prospect. Sure, it would suck to lose a pitcher from our own system, a pitcher who is a proven winner and innings eater. But then, I was upset at losing Wilson Alvarez, Alex Fernandez, Jack McDowell, Mike Sirotka as well...and none of them had much success after they left the south side. So Mark, if you do leave...good luck.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-07-2007, 11:16 AM
This is why you get the kids to fill in over time. With our bullpen of young arms, next year the probable movement of another young OF into the majors, and one of the young kids in the rotation, you have 9-10 guys making the major league minimum, or dang near it. Just for the heck of it, thoughts for 2008:

Buehrle - 14mm
Dye - 13mm

Total expenditure - 114.64 million. If we were to not renew Uribe and use Cintron that would likely drop that number down a couple of million. If instead of Mackowiak we went with a cheaper utility guy that gets us under $110 million, and still keeps everyone together through the 2008 season.

I could see the White Sox signing either Buehrle or Dye (bringing their payroll to around $105 million) but not both. This Vazquez deal will save the White Sox a few million vs. his probable arbitration award.

The White Sox net payroll (net of payments from other clubs) was $91 million last year and $95 million heading into this year. I could see a $10 mill jump given the increased revenues of the team (general MLB revenues from their website and other deals as well as team revenues). Ticket prices have increased over the last couple of years, Tuesday half price night (Pepsi cans) has been eliminated, the Sox are down to five half price Monday's and I think the Sunday $1 kids day promo is gone as well.

I really think Buehrle is walking unless he has a really bad year. The White Sox will offer 3 or 4 years but he will most likely get a 5 or http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6448/six015tg7.jpg year deal for the same annual amount (or slightly more). The good news is Kenny has prepared for this scenario by loading up with young starters and relievers who can pick up the slack. I also agree this deal has nothing to do with Buehrle staying or going.

soxinem1
03-07-2007, 11:17 AM
This is a fantasy scenario that has little basis in reality.

I made that statement because of another poster saying that Vazquez should be a mentor to younger pitchers, not to be a wise-ass comedian.

The guy is an under-achiever, P.A.S. It has nothing to do with fantasy scenarios. He's the last guy on the team who should be a pitching consultant to younger players, because he still hasn't learned how to pitch himself.

spiffie
03-07-2007, 11:22 AM
I could see the White Sox signing either Buehrle or Dye (bringing their payroll to around $105 million) but not both. This Vazquez deal will save the White Sox a few million vs. his probable arbitration award.

The White Sox net payroll (net of payments from other clubs) was $91 million last year and $95 million heading into this year. I could see a $10 mill jump given the increased revenues of the team (general MLB revenues from their website and other deals as well as team revenues). Ticket prices have increased over the last couple of years, Tuesday half price night (Pepsi cans) has been eliminated, the Sox are down to five half price Monday's and I think the Sunday $1 kids day promo is gone as well.

I really think Buehrle is walking unless he has a really bad year. The White Sox will offer 3 or 4 years but he will most likely get a 5 or http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6448/six015tg7.jpg year deal for the same annual amount (or slightly more). The good news is Kenny has prepared for this scenario by loading up with young starters and relievers who can pick up the slack.
I could see a one-year jump in payroll to a higher amount if they planned on letting Fields take over for Crede after 2008, since then you would be adding another league minimum starting player. Or if after 2008 they feel like they can replace Garland with one of the kid pitchers that would save them $10 million.

I guess I can't see them sustaining a payroll of $105-110 million, but if they felt it was a one year thing I could see it happening.

Scottiehaswheels
03-07-2007, 11:25 AM
I made that statement because of another poster saying that Vazquez should be a mentor to younger pitchers, not to be a wise-ass comedian.

The guy is an under-achiever, P.A.S. It has nothing to do with fantasy scenarios. He's the last guy on the team who should be a pitching consultant to younger players, because he still hasn't learned how to pitch himself.
Ok you contradict yourself... You agree that Javy's problems are mental not mechanical but then insist that he shouldn't be a mentor? Why the hell not? Its not as though he is transferring his mental issues onto the younger pitchers? Their mental makeup is strictly their own. His mechanics are good, and by association if he gets the mental thing out of the way he also should be looking at 20 wins and a Cy Young... So what exactly is it that he shouldn't be teaching the prospects?

soxinem1
03-07-2007, 11:25 AM
I could see a one-year jump in payroll to a higher amount if they planned on letting Fields take over for Crede after 2008, since then you would be adding another league minimum starting player. Or if after 2008 they feel like they can replace Garland with one of the kid pitchers that would save them $10 million.

I guess I can't see them sustaining a payroll of $105-110 million, but if they felt it was a one year thing I could see it happening.

Only if 2007 brings another playoff team, then it can....

Chips
03-07-2007, 11:26 AM
I really think Buehrle is walking unless he has a really bad year. The White Sox will offer 3 or 4 years but he will most likely get a 5 or http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6448/six015tg7.jpg year deal for the same annual amount (or slightly more). The good news is Kenny has prepared for this scenario by loading up with young starters and relievers who can pick up the slack. I also agree this deal has nothing to do with Buehrle staying or going.

:rolling: